On Red Mage melee...

[TybudX]

"Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses" has been a mantra of Red Mages since pretty much it's inception in FF1

As long as we're sticking to that manual, we should also abolish 14 jobs, real time combat, and being able to pan our cameras to the far right of our characters during combat. You know, cause a 25 year old game said so.

[cidbahamut]

Shut up Pchan.

[Greatguardian]

Shut up Pchan.

^.

I'm also fairly annoyed with the idea that "Fixing Rdm Melee" is "5 lines of code that the Devs can do in 2 minutes and won't affect anything else in the game ever". Last I checked, Rdm could out-DD Bard if they don't completely suck. White Mage melee'ing is extremely gimmicky as well, and has never been acceptable on anything outside of fodder, so I don't really see the complaint here. It's not that Red Mage melee is gimped because it is comparable to White Mage's. It is simply that White Mage's melee was buffed to be comparable to Red Mages to fix the job's inability to defend itself while solo.

And frankly, I do not, have not, and will never give half a flying frock about "helping people at the low end of the gear spectrum be super awesome at everything". That is what the gear is for. That is what you do in Final Fantasy XI. You improve your character by undertaking quests and battles in order to obtain better gear, which you then utilize to unlock the maximum potential of your job.

FFXI is not a game where a naked Spankwustler can throw on whatever they want and be good enough. There will be times where your performance, and your gear, and your skills will not be good enough for the task at hand. So what do you do? You get better. Abyssea is casual-friendly content, the likes of which this game hasn't seen in ages. The level cap increase has made old-style content significantly easier, opening the doors to lv75 Endgame gear wide open to anyone who bothers trying for it. If you're (general) still running around in full teal, it is because you are not putting in the effort to get better. Period.

Still not seeing the point some people are trying to make. It's like they're not even reading anything I write (surprised? Nah). I'll put it in bold for you, then. Red Mage is already an acceptably decent Melee on fodder mobs. It does not need to be adjusted in order to become viable on anything below EM-T level. If you agree that melee'ing NMs is stupid, then we have nothing to talk about. But remember, you are not the only RdMelees posting in this thread. Duelle, contrary to his current backpedaling, has called for Magical nerfs in his previous posts.

As for Duelle's post itself, if the group only expects a Red Mage to Haste/Refresh/Cure, then they are either terrible players or know that the Red Mage is terrible and they should not expect much of them. Solo'ing is significant, and cannot be ignored. There are entire classes whose niche relies on solo'ing, and who thus find themselves without a real use in group play.

Some people are arguing Concepts. Others are arguing Reality. For those who are so indignant about the "Duelist" being unable to "Duel", what realistic tweak do you think the Devs could make that would accomplish.... whatever it is you want. Also, what is it that you want? Because every single one of you seems to subscribe to a different (though sometimes similar) agenda. Do you want Rdm melee'ing on HNMs? Do you simply want its melee'ing on fodder mobs to get a buff? Do you want people to actually invite Rdm for their melee aspect (This will Never happen, and nothing SE can do will change that)? Or do you just want to throw a hissy fit about how weak you are like every Pup, Drk, Blu, and Smn in the game? I will always find the latter hilarious considering Red Mage really is the single most powerful job in FFXI, and probably always will be.

I'm fairly confident Pimpchan is playing DA for the sake of playing DA because I'm fairly confident he doesn't care about meleeing on Rdm either, especially since all 4 points he brought up as to why you would want a Rdm in your group according to him are 4 you don't need meleeing to perform, or meleeing would be detrimental in some shape or form. Not sure what he's arguing for honestly.

Not really sure either. He's displaying his typical Pchan inability to read for comprehension. He also doesn't seem to know what Owleyes is, which isn't surprising because he hates Abyssea so much.

[Duelle]

Duelle, contrary to his current backpedaling, has called for Magical nerfs in his previous posts.

It's not backpedaling when it is part of the original idea/suggestion. I simply never posted the idea in its entirety. I've been taking pieces from the idea and using them as separate ideas. in other parts of the discussion, both here and in the Melee Mage thread.

Since I'm interpreting your comment as a subtle request to elaborate (or explain myself to some degree), I'll indulge you with the reader's digest version of my idea: I'd basically give a stance mechanic to RDM, but with built-in restrictions to allow emphasis on melee and the caster sides of RDM depending on what you want to do with the job. The melee stance would obviously have mechanics to mix in magic and sword arts (JAs, melee-oriented traits), with limited support, nerfed casting ranges (since the melee stance should be used for melee...), a tweaked spell selection, and possibly some enfeebles exclusive to the melee stance. Boosted melee through higher skill ratings and access to more weapon skills is a no-brainer. On a personal level, I'd also toss in things to streamline the class to perform up to par in this role. In short, the melee RDM would be enfeebling stuff in the front lines while swinging their weapon, dealing melee and some magical damage (enspells and more) with some support still available to them should the need come up, but not to the point where a melee RDM would be forced to use its support only.

The caster stance, on the other hand, would play similarly to how RDM currently plays. You'd have the current support spells, the current nukes (I also had the dual element nuke idea until I was told it's not possible due to game mechanics), additional leeway for healing without giving RDM Cure V, and its enfeebling intact. I would, for the sake of balance, limit melee capabilities when in the caster stance.

What I was considering, though, was distributing the spell lists where appropriate. There's spells that you don't use in the back lines, and similarly there's spells in the front lines that don't do much for you. I guess the best way I could put it is that when looking at Fencer and Sage, one would (for example) look to temporarily disable an opponent while the other, having the advantage of distance and different spells, would be able to take the time to do actual crowd control. The alternative would be to have each stance affect certain spells differently. Don't know how complicated that would be, though.

Feel free to ask if you need me to elaborate further. I have the whole thing archived and there's plenty of points that could be up for discussion...provided there's someone actually willing to discuss things.

As for Duelle's post itself, if the group only expects a Red Mage to Haste/Refresh/Cure, then they are either terrible players or know that the Red Mage is terrible and they should not expect much of them.

Yet why are we continuously invited to heal, refresh and haste? Abyssea's refresh atmas were a godsend and all, but those shackles haven't fallen off.

Solo'ing is significant, and cannot be ignored. There are entire classes whose niche relies on solo'ing, and who thus find themselves without a real use in group play.

Sorry, but no. No one deserves the fate the developers placed on BST or the other solo-only jobs for as long as they did. Everyone should be able to participate because otherwise, why add those jobs? We already know thematics on their own don't justify anything. Thematics and game mechanics, on the other hand...

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'm fairly confident Pimpchan is playing DA for the sake of playing DA because I'm fairly confident he doesn't care about meleeing on Rdm either, especially since all 4 points he brought up as to why you would want a Rdm in your group according to him are 4 you don't need meleeing to perform, or meleeing would be detrimental in some shape or form. Not sure what he's arguing for honestly.

[MarkovChain]

owleyes is as useless as meleing on pup, a RDM is never idle it's always active. It's not a surprise to anyone that you farm crap like this, paired with pdt and mdt. In nowadays FFXI the only RDM equip that are usefull are buff duration extension, MND, nuke, full AF3+2 and the appropriate damage + staves and crimson cuisses.

Honestly SE is going to have a hard time releasing gear that would be more useful if they do not unlock various stats cap (like MND) ; it's not specific to mages anyway.

You can argue that rdm melee is dumb but be sure to not use non retarded argument against it (like capping hate on rdm => you need mdt or -enmity gear) or requiring staves for magic acc or w/e.

Keep your haste, fast cast, pdt,mdt and hmp gear for yourself but please leave us alone with your dumb gear.

[Greatguardian]

Pchan, ladies and gentlemen.

[Karbuncle]

ITT: Haste: Dumb gear

[SNK]

Wow pchan. That's just... terrible....

[TybudX]

It's like he's arguing against RDM melee while insulting RDM maging. I bet he bleeds from the ears a lot. There's probably a guy in slippers being fed his meds across from him right now.