This how i feel tanking as a Warrior^^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSSP8iGR9CE


atleast on Titan


then i get raised with stone skin but then a monk has to down them ; ;

Wait until you get into Coil. It's just hopeless. The fights aren't completely impossible for a warrior, but it requires absolute perfection from both you and your healers. It will foster this toxic atmosphere on voice where everyone is aware that your class is holding back the entire raid as you wipe time after time because you're a tank without any tanking cooldowns, but they're too polite to bench you or force you to reroll. They just keep making these half-joking, half-serious hints that you've wasted your time leveling and gearing a warrior, and now are wasting seven other players' time playing it.

After entire consecutive days of attempts where everybody knows the fight and does everything right but your class is too underpowered to do the job, you just start to wonder whether there's any point paying for this game at all. Considering SE's track record of never balancing classes, and now Yoshi-P's ridiculous insistence that warrior is a "very strong" class and that it's just the players' fault (what, all of them?) for not doing enough "research," I've personally decided not to subscribe after the first month is up.

@ Wangstrong (Big Larsen)

Have you tried stacking a bit more STR to balance your damage to HP recovery skills? 7k HP with Defiance is impressive, but may not be fully beneficial. Have a look at the Warrior Compendium 2.0 to see some of the numbers. I haven't had a chance to do all endgame content so any feedback from skilled players such as yourself would be greatly appreciated.

Stacking strength is worthless. Do you know how insignificant the gains are? It has effectively no influence on survivability whatsoever. The problem is that you can't tank these endgame mobs that hit for 2k, 3k, 4k. Squeezing an extra 50 HP out of Inner Beast isn't even remotely close to being the solution, and especially not when it comes at the expense of raw survivability. You're essentially trying to solve a problem of insufficient survivability by sacrificing more survivability in exchange for something that does nothing.

Your "Warrior Compendium" is just a collection of vague ideas, most of them incorrect and based on nothing more than suppositions. There's no solution, there's no undiscovered key to enabling the warrior's power. It's just a severely underpowered class with no hope in sight due to developer arrogance and incompetence. I have no feedback because there's nothing to share other than the fact that the class is just too weak to be effective in the endgame. The fights are just barely doable if everything is perfect, but it's like bringing a knife to a gunfight. Don't waste your time trying to "research" the secret of the class, it isn't there.

I no longer play this game so I have no further interest in it beyond expressing my annoyance with this extreme failure in class balance and content design. Since Yoshi-P has chosen the easy route of essentially telling people to shut up about the problem, I don't expect it to change. SE are specifically known for never fixing class imbalance and I haven't seen anything that indicates that they've changed; rather they've clearly shown that they haven't.

@Wangstrong

That's too bad that you decide to no longer play the game.

While I understand that these bosses do hit hard, I haven't had a chance to experience the frequency of those hits in order to say that the HP recovery from Inner Beast every ~20 Seconds that it could proc would be enough for damage mitigation paired with the Increased Heal% from Wrath Buffs and other cooldowns.

Looking at your gear, by swapping in DD jewelry you would reduce your HP Pool by ~10% but you could increase your HP recovery by Inner Beast by ~300 @ 20 second intervals, a Double Inner Beast (using Infuriate) by 600 HP or Double Inner Beast + Berserk by 900 HP.

So depending on the intervals that those massive hits come it may or may not help. @ 60 second intervals if you are going from ~1700 HP Absorb to ~2300 HP Absorb on a double Inner Beast on a 4k hit that's an extra ~15% "damage mitigation" for 50 STR.

On a 2k hit that's 100% mitigation for a double Inner Beast and an extra ~15% "damage mitigation" with a single Inner Beast.

lol i hate you warriors...

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

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There are a couple of fundamental flaws here.

You almost never want to use IB every time it is up. Wrath V is the most important thing for a WAR to be viable. Not only does it increase your Crit rate it is also your main form of 'mitigation' with the healing received buff. Every time you receive a heal without Wrath V up, you are widening the gap, significantly, between PLD and WAR in terms of overall efficiency and effectiveness.

There are very very few instances you want to lose Wrath V. 1) Against trash mobs. 2) If you don't you will, without a doubt, die because the healer is raising the other healer.

If you've just taken a big hit, your healers will be scrambling to heal you. the last thing you want to do is make their job harder by losing Wrath V. Especially in the hardest content available.

So while what you're theory may look good on paper, that's simply not how it works in reality. you need to stop thinking of war as a standalone tank and how effective it is at mitigation damage by itself. That's not the type of class it is.

It needs some serious Quality of Life adjustments.

1) Storm's Path:

Storm's path to combo off of skull sunder instead of maim
reducing the TP cost of Storm's Path
giving it a combo bonus of improved crit chance
Making this a trait instead, where every time you crit you heal 50% of the damage dealt.

2) Redesigning Holmgang

because seriously, this skill is beyond useless against anything that matters. A parry/crit buff instead would be awesome

3) Redesigning Unchained

Something similar to PUG's Perfect Balance ability.
Or a boosted crit/parry rate for 20s

4) buffing Steel Cyclone to heal when it crits.

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Originally Posted by Wangstrong

Stacking strength is worthless. Do you know how insignificant the gains are? It has effectively no influence on survivability whatsoever. The problem is that you can't tank these endgame mobs that hit for 2k, 3k, 4k. Squeezing an extra 50 HP out of Inner Beast isn't even remotely close to being the solution, and especially not when it comes at the expense of raw survivability. You're essentially trying to solve a problem of insufficient survivability by sacrificing more survivability in exchange for something that does nothing.

Your "Warrior Compendium" is just a collection of vague ideas, most of them incorrect and based on nothing more than suppositions. There's no solution, there's no undiscovered key to enabling the warrior's power. It's just a severely underpowered class with no hope in sight due to developer arrogance and incompetence. I have no feedback because there's nothing to share other than the fact that the class is just too weak to be effective in the endgame. The fights are just barely doable if everything is perfect, but it's like bringing a knife to a gunfight. Don't waste your time trying to "research" the secret of the class, it isn't there.

I no longer play this game so I have no further interest in it beyond expressing my annoyance with this extreme failure in class balance and content design. Since Yoshi-P has chosen the easy route of essentially telling people to shut up about the problem, I don't expect it to change. SE are specifically known for never fixing class imbalance and I haven't seen anything that indicates that they've changed; rather they've clearly shown that they haven't.

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I was doing Ifrit with my warrior a few days ago to help some guildies. Got other pug warriors in all attempts. They were all vit stacked. I had just swapped from vit to strength to test it out. In a few occasions I let the other warriors tank it. On others I tanked it.

When we got out, my healer said, "Please don't ever let any other warrior tank it. With you I cast a Cure every so often, with others I have to cast Cure II all the time. I was so glad when you tanked there."

Maybe it isn't that I was strength stacked, maybe it was that I managed my Wrath Stacks/Inner Beast/ and Bloodbath/Berserk/Internal Release better and I would heal myself a little better. Now I now Ifrit is not Coil and I am not saying that suddenly if I go to Coil I will be the magical Warrior that will crack the instance and show everyone how to play. I am just saying, on the same fight, same class, several Warriors, all but me stacked with vit, I was the easiest to heal.

I only got up to Garuda though so I am not going to pretend I know how Titan or Coil are.

I do share your frustation though, sometimes I feel sorry for bringing this class into a raid. It's a shame because I love the feel of it. And I also agree that I don't think YoshiP has the right attitude on this. The class needs fixing.

The first time you see and feal yourself the big cap between warrior and Paladin is at Garuda.
If not there you will feal it at Titan.

Maybe the "midigation" on paper is the same (More hp +more heal vs getting less dmg) in theorie it is the same
BUT: I just had the option to get a look at some Parses... i was shocked.
With 475 Parry i only had a 0.8% chance of a Parry while fighting Ifrit and 1,2% while Fighting Garuda.
While looking at the Paladin parse he had about 2% parry and 2,5% block.
Well However
Parry is useless ;)

Back to topic:
The absolut big caps come from Paladin cooldowns.
30% less dmg over 30 seconds
and dmg immune?! for i dont know exactly^^
What does we have? 50% more defence (hey paladin can get this too over crossskill)
Bloodbath (hay paladin can get it too)

Besides our broken selfheal mechanic. Inner beast can only be cast if warcry is up ready...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wangstrong

Wait until you get into Coil. It's just hopeless. The fights aren't completely impossible for a warrior, but it requires absolute perfection from both you and your healers. It will foster this toxic atmosphere on voice where everyone is aware that your class is holding back the entire raid as you wipe time after time because you're a tank without any tanking cooldowns, but they're too polite to bench you or force you to reroll. They just keep making these half-joking, half-serious hints that you've wasted your time leveling and gearing a warrior, and now are wasting seven other players' time playing it.


After entire consecutive days of attempts where everybody knows the fight and does everything right but your class is too underpowered to do the job, you just start to wonder whether there's any point paying for this game at all. Considering SE's track record of never balancing classes, and now Yoshi-P's ridiculous insistence that warrior is a "very strong" class and that it's just the players' fault (what, all of them?) for not doing enough "research," I've personally decided not to subscribe after the first month is up.

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This is all too true. I'm just glad I had it in me to reroll Paladin before I got to Coil.

Paladins allow for a lot more mistakes. When you're learning a fight, or killing something for the first time, you're probably going to make a lot of mistakes. That's the kicker though; you can kill it while making mistakes. Warrior can't.

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Originally Posted by Onisake

There are a couple of fundamental flaws here.
You almost never want to use IB every time it is up.

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My examples were only towards the frequency of high damage hits on Warrior. I didn't mean to imply that keeping up the Infuriate Buff wasn't important.

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So while your theory may look good on paper, that's simply not how it works in reality. you need to stop thinking of war as a standalone tank and how effective it is at mitigation damage by itself. That's not the type of class it is.

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With or without damage mitigation through HP absorb, the Warrior still relies on the party, same as Paladin. But outside of the boost Warrior gets from Stoneskin (~300 extra over an equally geared Paladin) and 15% increased heals from Infuriate it still lacks the mitigation of Paladin without working with HP absorb. So why choose Warrior over Paladin?

IMO being able to drop a 2k+ self heal every 60 seconds is pretty powerful. That's 50% damage mitigation on a 4k hit. With buffs you could reach 100% mitigation @ 120 second intervals. Definitely worth the loss of 15% increased healing for 20 seconds.

Y'now, I wonder if its the raid makeup that makes WAR seem less tankie. We have done garuda HM and the healers liked it better with me MT'ing as a WAR and the Pally OT the adds. We have about the same gear sets. We use a WHM and SCH as healers. The SCH can obviously heal and shield me for MUCH more per cast then on the PAL. Yes, WHM has to burn their pool down low to keep me up, but the SCH keeps me up no pressure. The SCH has problems with the pally, but the WHM pairs as main healer with him perfectly.

Everyone stated that WAR *should* be fine. But the group will have to know what kinda tank they have and move on from there. Again, I have not even completed Titan yet as I am still working on my DL. So take it for what it is.

I fully expect the pally to be the MT in coil until better gear options become available.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

My examples were only towards the frequency of high damage hits on Warrior. I didn't mean to imply that keeping up the Infuriate Buff wasn't important.

With or without damage mitigation through HP absorb, the Warrior still relies on the party, same as Paladin. But outside of the boost Warrior gets from Stoneskin (~300 extra over an equally geared Paladin) and 15% increased heals from Infuriate it still lacks the mitigation of Paladin without working with HP absorb. So why choose Warrior over Paladin?

IMO being able to drop a 2k+ self heal every 60 seconds is pretty powerful. That's 50% damage mitigation on a 4k hit. With buffs you could reach 100% mitigation @ 120 second intervals. Definitely worth the loss of 15% increased healing for 20 seconds.

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There aren't many reasons to choose war over pld. and that's part of the problem. like seriously, any idiot can play pld. it's not hard at all. in the hands of a truly skilled player paladin is an absolute beast.

Even in the right hands, a WAR feels awkward.

The first real encounter with frequent heavy hits is Titan post-heart phase. mountain buster is far more frequent than every 60 seconds.

For the first one I hit IB=> Infuriate. the second one I hit ToB=>SW. for the third I hit berserk+Bloodbath+vengeance+IR a bit before it happens, then pop conv+mantra as soon as it does.

in a nutshell: the big hits come much faster than once every 60 seconds. you can't afford to lose Wrath V.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

IMO being able to drop a 2k+ self heal every 60 seconds is pretty powerful. That's 50% damage mitigation on a 4k hit. With buffs you could reach 100% mitigation @ 120 second intervals. Definitely worth the loss of 15% increased healing for 20 seconds.

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Here's the thing though. Cadacus will hit you for over 2-3k as pld (so more as warrior) every 3-5 seconds, not every 60 or 120. You're looking at content like garu (which only has one phase where the tank is getting hit hard, and that's while the damage buff sister is up) and ifrit (which is... lol? its ifrit) and thinking "oh, well 60 seconds isn't so long."Then you get to titan whre mountain buster is about every 30 seconds (its mroe or less perfectly timed with sacred soil cool down, so your'e taking 3/4 hits without your 120 second mitigation. Also, titan normally hits you for as much or more than buffed garuda does, and then goes into stomps on top of all that. Once you start going into content actually designed for ilvl 70+ gaer, you'll find that the damage out put to the tank increases dramatically.

And even if we stick to easier content like garu, the only time I want to do garu is for mythic farm on mondays. In that case I only want to take in one tank, and really, I want that tank to be a paladin from a healer's persepctive. The pld has a powerful cd for each sister phase (though I'm probably only going to see one or two in a farm), has a much better iWin button, and is all around the safer choice. With only one tank healers have to cast more on dps, which means less gcds for the tank, and in all situations, a pld requires fewer gcds cus they reduce damage by 20% and you only buff healing by 15%. Also, if you look at it as a ehp question (such as lustrate as sch), sure, you have 5-10% more hp than the pld for my lustrate to hit, but... the pld will mitigate 20% of that return damage while my lustrate isn't buffed by your healing passive (near as I have been able to test).

Warrior just isn't viable for late game stuff, and it sucks. I wish it was. I play pld, but everyone should be able to play the class they love, and I know that one day pld will probably suffer a similar fate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Onisake

There aren't many reasons to choose war over pld. and that's part of the problem. like seriously, any idiot can play pld. it's not hard at all. in the hands of a truly skilled player paladin is an absolute beast.

Even in the right hands, a WAR feels awkward.

The first real encounter with frequent heavy hits is Titan post-heart phase. mountain buster is far more frequent than every 60 seconds.

For the first one I hit IB=> Infuriate. the second one I hit ToB=>SW. for the third I hit berserk+Bloodbath+vengeance+IR a bit before it happens, then pop conv+mantra as soon as it does.

in a nutshell: the big hits come much faster than once every 60 seconds. you can't afford to lose Wrath V.

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Yes it looks like Mountain Buster is exactly 30 second intervals. So you would have to mix things up a little.
Stoneskin Tank + Virus Debuff on Titan etc.

Why not dump IB + Infuriate + IB on the first Mountain Rush. If you get an extra 1100 HP absorb off it - Your healer would need to heal 6k in 7.5 seconds to catch up, at which point you would be 6%-9% buffed again anyways.

Without any other other skills you can recover ~25% of a Mountain Rush with Inner Beast and the Maim/Story's Eye Buff/Debuff (unless you just completely neglect adding any STR) - that's on a 30 second interval.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PiedPiper

Here's the thing though. Cadacus will hit you for over 2-3k as pld (so more as warrior) every 3-5 seconds, not every 60 or 120. You're looking at content like garu (which only has one phase where the tank is getting hit hard, and that's while the damage buff sister is up) and ifrit (which is... lol? its ifrit) and thinking "oh, well 60 seconds isn't so long."Then you get to titan whre mountain buster is about every 30 seconds (its mroe or less perfectly timed with sacred soil cool down, so your'e taking 3/4 hits without your 120 second mitigation. Also, titan normally hits you for as much or more than buffed garuda does, and then goes into stomps on top of all that. Once you start going into content actually designed for ilvl 70+ gaer, you'll find that the damage out put to the tank increases dramatically.

And even if we stick to easier content like garu, the only time I want to do garu is for mythic farm on mondays. In that case I only want to take in one tank, and really, I want that tank to be a paladin from a healer's persepctive. The pld has a powerful cd for each sister phase (though I'm probably only going to see one or two in a farm), has a much better iWin button, and is all around the safer choice. With only one tank healers have to cast more on dps, which means less gcds for the tank, and in all situations, a pld requires fewer gcds cus they reduce damage by 20% and you only buff healing by 15%. Also, if you look at it as a ehp question (such as lustrate as sch), sure, you have 5-10% more hp than the pld for my lustrate to hit, but... the pld will mitigate 20% of that return damage while my lustrate isn't buffed by your healing passive (near as I have been able to test).

Warrior just isn't viable for late game stuff, and it sucks. I wish it was. I play pld, but everyone should be able to play the class they love, and I know that one day pld will probably suffer a similar fate.

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Bahamuts Coil sounds brutal regardless of what tank is used.

Most the vids I checked out both tanks take ~ 14k damage in 60s intervals +/-3k against Cadacus with some hits being 2-3k

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

IMO being able to drop a 2k+ self heal every 60 seconds is pretty powerful. That's 50% damage mitigation on a 4k hit. With buffs you could reach 100% mitigation @ 120 second intervals. Definitely worth the loss of 15% increased healing for 20 seconds.

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Sorry, but this doesn't sound right to me as a healer. 2k self heal isn't that much... and 15 % is substantial. If I am healing a tank for 20 seconds, I am pretty sure I would prefer he/she have the 15 percent heal buff than a 2k heal.

The reason why is that if spike is an issue- then I would rather have the buff- because if I heal for 13k, it's a break even... I can do that in 20 seconds. Multiple healers easily do this much.

Spikes are where the healers are really struggling to keep health up, so handicapping by losing the bonus seems like a bad idea. If it's easy to heal damage, then there's just no need for the loss of stacks- healers will keep you up fine.

When healing a warrior, I tell them to keep stacks. It's my job to heal you- not yours. You keep stacks and aggro, and that makes things easier on everyone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Why not dump IB + Infuriate + IB on the first Mountain Rush. If you get an extra 1100 HP absorb off it - Your healer would need to heal 6k in 7.5 seconds to catch up, at which point you would be 6%-9% buffed again anyways.

Outside of the 60 second interval you would have to improvise with mixing IR, Berserk, SW and IB together

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It's far too risky to follow the first Mountainbuster with a double IB because he follows it up with stomps. your healer will soon begin spam healing the group, with Wrath V it makes the heals more effective on you. without it, they have to spend extra MP to get you near capped, and then go immediately into AoE heal spam. this is incredibly taxing on MP. Wrath V up throughout and only a single IB they can usually get away with a single C3 into the AoE spam heals. so the answer is, as always, you can't afford to lose your Wrath V.


you could do it after the second mountain buster, as the following moves are easily avoidable. however he only has 3 move rotations before he begins his rotation again with another mountain buster. essentially it leaves you woefully unprepared for the next big heal you need to receive. you're better off doing something else, than scrambling to rebuild wrath. he's still hitting you afterall. you're essentially making your healers burn extra MP right before another big AoE spam. that's why I save conv+mantra for the third mountain buster. it reduces the stress on them significantly, because i'm receiving ~35% extra healing on top of refreshing myself with bloodbath+berserk

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Originally Posted by Bayman

The SCH can obviously heal and shield me for MUCH more per cast then on the PAL.

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Why is it people still don't understand that this is simply not the case? Shield Oath grants the PLD 25% bonus effective HP, equivalent to a WAR in Defiance, but also grants a permanent 25% heal boost as well due to the way % damage reduction works. An Adloquim or Stoneskin on WAR will be just as potent on a PLD in their respective stances.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

The reason why is that if spike is an issue- then I would rather have the buff- because if I heal for 13k, it's a break even... I can do that in 20 seconds. Multiple healers easily do this much.

...

When healing a warrior, I tell them to keep stacks. It's my job to heal you- not yours. You keep stacks and aggro, and that makes things easier on everyone.

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In fairness, it doesn't drop the 15% buff for the whole time. Over the 20 seconds it's going to average out to about 8% healing buff rather than 15%. Aside from that, it is the Warrior's job to heal themselves. That's our primary tanking mechanic and our only way to mitigate damage.

If someone were dropping routine 2k heal inner beasts (extremely unlikely, you're only going to hit 2k on a crit, or with other cooldowns like Berserk), it would generally be worth it to do so.

If you took it down to a more reasonable and likely number like 1.5k, then it gets a bit more iffy. You are missing out on ~7% healing averaged over the 20 seconds, which means that if you are receiving less than 21k heals in those 20 seconds it's generally preferable to drop the inner beast because you will presumably drop it after you take spike damage, when you need it most.

In a solo healer situation, it's going to be nearly impossible for a single healer to heal 21k worth of healing in 20 seconds, which is why it's worth doing. And realistically, if you're taking more than 1k damage per second, it's going to be a real rough ride in general. By my estimate the only situations that get that high against a WAR are 4-5 stack cadeceus, Double Dreadnaught, and Twintania. Which are all things the WAR is incapable of tanking anyway, and this is presumably a contributing factor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CurlyBruce

Why is it people still don't understand that this is simply not the case? Shield Oath grants the PLD 25% bonus effective HP, equivalent to a WAR in Defiance, but also grants a permanent 25% heal boost as well due to the way % damage reduction works. An Adloquim or Stoneskin on WAR will be just as potent on a PLD in their respective stances.

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Stoneskin is equally potent. Lustrate is equally potent. But Adloquium is significantly more potent when cast on a PLD since the shield is based on healing done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

Stoneskin is equally potent. Lustrate is equally potent. But Adloquium is significantly more potent when cast on a PLD since the shield is based on healing done.

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True, I was generalizing since Stoneskin/Adloquium/anything Cure related makes people seem to think WAR's visible 25% HP/15% healing buff gives them an advantage. In fact pretty much all buffs/cures are better on a PLD because of Shield Blocks and cooldowns that apply % damage reduction boost healing as well and will retroactively increase Stoneskins buff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Isdren

The absolute big caps come from Paladin cooldowns.
30% less dmg over 30 seconds
and dmg immune?! for i dont know exactly^^
What does we have? 50% more defence (hey paladin can get this too over crossskill)
Bloodbath (hay paladin can get it too)

Besides our broken selfheal mechanic. Inner beast can only be cast if warcry is up ready...

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You're ignoring the 15% incoming healing boost that Warriors can sustain almost indefinitely. That counts for more than you may realise.

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Originally Posted by AridElf

You're ignoring the 15% incoming healing boost that Warriors can sustain almost indefinitely. That counts for more than you may realise.

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Indefinitely? Meaning you only inner beast once per minute?

And 15% counts, but it's still is a far cry from the 25% effective healing increase Paladin gets 100% of the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

Indefinitely? Meaning you only inner beast once per minute?

And 15% counts, but it's still is a far cry from the 25% effective healing increase Paladin gets 100% of the time.

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I don't use Inner Beast when I don't need to. I don't see where you're getting this 25% effective healing that the Paladin gets. If you are referring to the -20% damage received while using Shield Oath then remember that Warriors get +25% HP while in Defiance. Yes the shield helps them out too but I would rather have a definite HP buffer than a randomly activated shield block.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AridElf

I don't see where you're getting this 25% effective healing that the Paladin gets. If you are referring to the -20% damage received while using Shield Oath then remember that Warriors get +25% HP while in Defiance.

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Yes, but there in lies the problem. -20% damage taken is equivalent to a +25% to effective HP. But because your visible HP isn't actually going up this means that cures will heal for +25% effective HP also. Example: PLD with 4000 HP takes 80% damage so effectively he has 5000 HP. A PLD who gets cured from 3000 > 4000 HP is effectively getting cured from 3750 > 5000. So a cure worth 1000 is effectively curing for 1250 ie. a 25% boost to healing.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Now there is a 10% bonus for PLD -> 80 HP, but the Warrior happended to use Storm's Path lol + 80 HP

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So you admit that there is a 10% bonus to PLD.....and 25%-10% = 15% which just so happens to be the bonus applied to Defiance with Wrath V. So yes....PLD has an innate 25% bonus to healing.

I have just cleared turn 1 coil with +1 Bravura with no problem at all because I have allocated all my stats to 30 VIT yielding me 7295 HP + food = 7495 HP in the end.

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Originally Posted by CurlyBruce

Yes, but there in lies the problem. -20% damage taken is equivalent to a +25% to effective HP. But because your visible HP isn't actually going up this means that cures will heal for +25% effective HP also. Example: PLD with 4000 HP takes 80% damage so effectively he has 5000 HP. A PLD who gets cured from 3000 > 4000 HP is effectively getting cured from 3750 > 5000. So a cure worth 1000 is effectively curing for 1250 ie. a 25% boost to healing.

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What's interesting about that is this end of it too.

4000 HP -> takes a 1000 hit which is reduced to 800
3200 HP -> Healed for 1000

now at 4000 HP (-20% effective heal)

So essentially there was no bonus.
-------------------------------------
Even if the heal was for 800

War - @ 4000 HP - Healed -> 4920 HP
PLD - @ 3200 HP - Healed -> 4000 HP

Now there is a 10% bonus for PLD -> 80 HP, but the Warrior happended to use Storm's Path lol + 80 HP

Probably worst case scenario would be if PLD and WAR had the same size HP Pool (example 2k heal)

6000 HP PLD - Takes 5k Damage - now @ 2k - 4k after heal
6000 HP WAR - Takes 5k damage - now @ 1k - 3.3k after heal

Just under 30% in favor of PLD

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Originally Posted by Onisake

So while what you're theory may look good on paper

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Actually, quite the opposite; it's not at all difficult to demonstrate mathematically that at current endgame damage rates, sitting on 5 stacks of Wrath is better than using them. You use strength in earlier content, and it works well. Once you reach endgame, you're no longer better off for using STR due to the limitations to self-healing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

But outside of the boost Warrior gets from Stoneskin (~300 extra over an equally geared Paladin)

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This is false. In terms of effective HP, WAR has a flat 85 HP advantage increased by 25% from Defiance/SO. That means that WAR actually has a 19 effective HP advantage from Stoneskin. Every time someone says "WAR has more health", they are making a similar error. It's 106 effective HP out of ~7000 for either tank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

IMO being able to drop a 2k+ self heal every 60 seconds is pretty powerful. That's 50% damage mitigation on a 4k hit. With buffs you could reach 100% mitigation @ 120 second intervals. Definitely worth the loss of 15% increased healing for 20 seconds.

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Actually, it's around 7% average loss for 20 seconds, which at 1000 incoming DPS needing to be healed is 1400 additional healing need. Your average unbuffed IB shot is not 1400 heal, so it's clear that using IB at all compared to holding Wrath V is unwise. You won't hit 2k from IB at all without Berserk + crit; your average shot is more in the range of 1000-1100 after accounting for crits. Ergo, you do not dump Wrath if you don't have to.

Realizing this, you can easily examine the situation without abilities: WAR gets nearly identical effective HP along with inferior effective healing (even assuming 15% up all the time, which is better than you can ever do even after accounting for IB, PLD is getting an effective 25%). This is why WAR is a mathematically-inferior tank for endgame without even glancing at the burst mitigation problem. Then you can pile on. In terms of burst mitigation, you can just do quick comparisons between skills to see that no matter how you slice it, PLD is stomping the heck out of WAR in that category as well. Then utility skills, where PLD gets GCD stun plus off-GCD silence while WAR has nothing but an off-GCD stun... yeah. WAR is clearly just plain inferior. That wouldn't be so much of an issue if it were even properly viable, but it's not.