7.0 Tank Wishlist

A thread with a simple premise:

Say which Tank Job(s) you play and what you most want for them (changes or staying the same, you're allowed to want whatever you feel you want) to have come in 7.0.

General: Change 30% Mitigations to be a bit different from one another (just make them more interesting), Give tanks a small DPS reward for good defensive use (like shield swipe), More importance on utility and team Support, Add raid wides and short cd defensives eariler on certain classes.

PLD: Reduce some Bloat, merge some, Add another combo to PLD (goring blade combo) it can do anything really as long as you use it, Reduce atonements, Make Clemency OGCD and apart of MP management (Remove magic attack healing but give clemency eariler), Make shield bash a Cone Stun, Cover should make you knockback Immune too, also removing all cleansable effects on you and target, granting knights benediction, extended range and off gauge. Make DV give out a regen if broken, Make passage similar to temperance tbh, it's whole gimmick is to just weave it out of existence, Rework Blocking, Rework how you gain gauge, Make your gap closer deal no damage but you can charge to allies, for 92 Upgrades to Fast/riot/royal, then later a upgrade for holy spirits animation. Also add Magic attacks eariler (below 50)

War: Remove Shake for a Intimidation that reduces all enemies damage by 15%, Healing should no longer heal you for each enemy, Add back upheavel on the gauge gap closer too, Honestly I'd prefer it if warrior had to choose to heal or to Mitigate (like SHB) but warrior had base HP higher by 15%-20%. Maybe give Vengeance a bloodbath effect as to still give them that aoe sustain but just not to the effectiveness of current. In general I want warrior to feel like a warrior, not like a axe paladin healer.

Drk: Rework This job from the ground up offensive wise add more magic looking effects, also make its animations look better (a lot of its older animations did), Maybe allow Dark Arts to work with defensive abilities, Examples would be: DA Dark Mind, turns ability physical, DA: Oblation turns this into a targetable life steal effect, DA: Shadow Wall, Turns it into a short mitigation but a lot weaker ect. I think Also your party wide should become a Barrier ability as that actually fits dark knight. Job should remain somewhat busy but, not only in bursts I want it to be also busy in downtime, not to the same level obviously but just more consistent weaving throughout your encounter instead of spamming buttons in burst.

Gunbreaker: Make heart of light also Mitigate for physical, I honestly don't know what else should be changed about gunbreaker.

Dark Knight: click here for more details -> https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...43#post6383443

Gunbreaker: More Continuation skills, especially for main combos because Gunbreaker only feels bad when it doesn't have Continuation at lower levels. Double the potency of Continuation skills. Charges for a lot of Gunbreakers defensive abilities. A second charge for Bloodfest, Bow Shock, Sonic Break, and No Mercy and maybe reduced recast timers for said abilities. Sonic Break a cone AoE DoT. Bow Shock has 30 second duration. Heart of Light affects physical damage and gives a raidwide cure potency of 400 that also gives Brutal Shell buff for the amount healed and Aurora buff to all party members. Aurora an instant cast 900 cure potency for some clutch plays and on a 30 cooldown. Gunbreaker coat that doesn't clip with long hair.

Paladin: Sword Oath stacks are part of Paladin's job gauge. Shield Bash an oGCD that becomes Shield Swipe upon execution. Spirits Within becomes Expiacion upon execution. Confiteor combo available outside of Requiescat, preferably after using a skill that uses up the Divine Might buff since Confiteor combo already has a base potency and a Requiescat potency. Sword Oath combo instead of Atonement spam. Combat Raise. Holy Spirit/Circle and Confiteor combo cure potency being AoE for up to 30 yalms for raid wide clutch plays. Raid wide damage up buff for party members. Raid wide regen for party members. More Gladiator themed abilities for base Gladiator.

Warrior: I do not really play Warrior so I have no idea what to do with it... but if I had wish for SOMETHING for Warrior, it would wanting to use Primal Rend outside of Inner Release, and maybe allow Inner Chaos/Chaotic Cyclone to be used outside of Infuriate, and have a way to get the 10% damage up outside of combat. Upheaval and Orogeny actually use the axe in the animations. Upheaval becomes Orogeny upon execution. Make Warrior less reliant on raid buffs to max out damage dealt. Delete Bloodbath effects on Warrior exclusives abilities and replace them with regen effects. More regen effects and instant heals on cooldowns. Raid wide damage up buff for party members. More Marauder themed abilities for base Marauder.

General Tank changes: 300 potency increase for all actions and combo bonuses because Tank Mastery Trait is very misleading(and that's the nice way of putting it). 25% haste effect that also affects ability recast timers. Low Blow an AoE stun that does 100 Potency, 400 Potency if it interrupts an enemy cast, 800 potency if it fully resist/immune to stun that is also a guaranteed Direct Critical Hit(it's called "Low Blow" after all). Interject same as Low Blow, minus the 800 potency effect. Second Wind and Bloodbath as tank role actions. Delete or rework Shirk. Tenacity affecting Direct Hit Rate. Enmity management to return for tanks only. 20 second duration on all invulns. Tank Mastery Trait reworked/removed or more clear about what it actually does because of the damage up effect on Tank Mastery being bugged by causing 1200 potency attacks hitting for a lot less on tanks than a Melee DPS using a 1200 potency attack.

WAR :

• Reduced defence compensated by more hitpoints compared to other tanks.
• Maybe a passive trait that increase damages done. The lower the life, the harder the hits.
• Class mitigations now increase life instead of reducing incoming damages. As Thrill of Battle before level 78.

DRK :

• Passive increase of magic defence. That way, it will always resist magic without counting on a oGCD.
• Maybe a passive trait that increase damages done. The lower the life, the harder the hits. (giving this trait to the WAR or the DRK would be cool I think)
• Why not recieving a (party?) heal when an ennemy dies near the DRK. (also recieving a damage boost when a friend dies near the DRK but I'm dreaming)

PLD :

• A ward similar to the sage's Kardia that transfert all, or part of, self-healing to the warded friend.
• Why not Clemency as an level 50 oGCD ?

GNB :
I don't really play GNB. I always think that adding a bayonet to a machinist doesn't make it a tank. But why not make it the shield tank ?

• Class mitigations now give a shield instead of reducing incoming damages.

I posted this on the discussion subreddit earlier today actually.

DRK:

Cooldown changes

◦ Low level living shadow at 50.

◦ Delirium is removed.

◦ Soul survivor is back. Learned at 52. Marks target with the status Another Victim. If that target should be KO'd in battle before the effect expires, 50% of your maximum HP and MP will be restored. If the effect expires first, 20% of your maximum HP and MP will be restored instead. If you hit the button again before the effect expires, it’ll consume “another victim” status and grant you the effect.

◦ Shadowskin is gained at 15. Low level TBN. When broken, halves the cost of your next edge/flood.

◦ Carve and spit actually lands three attacks.
GDC changes

◦ Weak bloodspiller/quietus is gained at 40.

◦ AoE combo is no longer spells

◦ Old scourge is back. No combo. Debuffs target for 20 seconds. Any damage you deal to that target restores 300 MP. 60 second cooldown.

◦ Old delirium combo is back. So hard slash- spinning slash- delirium. Spinning slash causes your next 6 GCD’s to generate 10 extra blood gauge per attack. Delirium buffs your next TBN, Dark Mind, or Dark Missionary by 10%. stacks twice. Edit: Delirium also buffs oblation.

◦ Abyssal drain is now a spell. Deals damage to the primary target and nearby enemies. Restores HP based on %of damage dealt. Costs 3000 MP. No cooldown (aside from being a global). Doesn’t interrupt combo. Basically it’s old AD.
◦ Bloodspiller has a 50% chance to grant 3 extra charges of spinning slash.
Shadowbringer/ Living Shadow changes

◦ Shadowbringer increases the duration living shadow stays out by 5 seconds, is on the GCD, doesn’t break combo, and consumes 20 seconds of darkside.

◦ Dark passenger is learned at 58. Weak shadowbringer. Costs more MP, less damage, longer cooldown, etc.
To clarify, the combos do interact with each other. So you can go 1-2-3 or 1-4-3 or 1-2-5 etc. The combo’s are interchangeable like monk’s. That and keeping darkside up requires a bit more effort and the ability of shadowbringer to keep Esteem out longer is a thing you’ll be able to minmax a little bit tho I haven’t put much thought into the timers. The return of old soul survivor and abyssal drain should give DRK a bit more on demand self sustain. That with the removal of delirium should make DRK feel a bit more unique and less like edgy warrior.


Generally, I just want tanks filler rotations to be more unique and fun and less burst focused (except GNB because that's fitting), i want their damage output and mitigation tied more closely together, I want resource management back, and I want them to gain more skills at lower levels. DRK is just the one i've thought about more.

Also nerf warrior's self sustain into the ground.

Paladin:

• My main desired improvement for Paladin is that it simply has too much button bloat, so consolidating some buttons would really help me fit everything comfortably within my crosshotbars. I'm already using a ton of macros and it's still bursting at the seams. Consolidating the 1-2-3 and 1-2 combo into a single button each would be enough to grant some much-needed space, provided that new moves don't eat that space up. So in that vein, please also get rid of a move for every new move that gets added!
• In a similar vein, Requiescat and Fight or Flight should be fused into a single move, since you're always going to want to cast them at the same time. This would open up some button space and reduce some needlessly clunky weaving.
• Also, yeah, y'all gotta nerf our healing.

Dark Knight:

• I feel like Dark Knight has been left behind mechanically. Paladin has this combo that builds into magical attacks and then periodically a bunch of magic swords, while also having a few abilities focused on defending party members. DRK kind of feels like Paladin if they took that stuff away and then replaced it with nothing. The Blackest Night is certainly some of the funnest mitigation in the game, but it's late to the party at level 70, and nothing else DRK gets feels like it has the impact or oomph of Paladin's spells or Warrior's Fell Cleaves. I don't mind that Dark Knight is mechanically simple, as I think it's good that some classes are simpler/easier than others, but I do wish that it felt like its kit brought more to the table, either by feeling cool to use or by providing utility that gave the class a bit more identity compared to the other tanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jidka

PLD :

• Why not Clemency as an level 50 oGCD ?

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This is something I'd like to point out as I think OGCD clemency could actually work really well and be something that makes PLD sort of stand out if done the right way.

I think if you reworked some MP values on, magic attacks, Clemency, getting mp back, you could turn clemency into a High costing MP skill that you can get around 2 uses out per minute (unless you want to expend extra clemencies which would ruin your burst damage).

I personally don't want to see clemency become some generic 60s CD, but to become something that has interesting value with how you can use it freely but over using it will cost you your burst. This also would keep its solo (or cases where you are keeping the team alive without a healer), but also repurpose it as something apart of your general kit. (I'm also going to mention here that we could generally get rid of REQ healing for this as PLD would likely have way too much healing if this was changed).

GNB
- a zero damage weaponskill with either a cast time or triggers the global cooldown with a longish gcd that grants one cartridge to help with moments when a boss becomes un-targetable at odd times
- add barrier HP to Heart of Light so it can protect against physical damage as well
- let Blasting Zone deal line aoe damage
- fix the bug where Double Down never crits under raid buffs
- rework Sonic Break to basically be Powder Mark from e11 -- like it causes the afflicted enemy to explode when the debuff expires instead of it being a dot

DRK
- rework the job so it still feels somewhat berserkery with out the warrior stink somehow
- add a one button, three part gcd combo that costs blood gauge so it also feels knightly like GNB, and PLD, maybe build it off of Carve and Spit
- thematically better communicate that MP is supposed to be a stand-in for your HP
- improve its ability to withstand, and protect against physical damage
- remove MP cost of The Blackest Night, and have it upgrade to Oblation. When barrier is broken it grants, and transforms into Abyssal Drain

PLD
- Holy Spirit, and Holy Circle get name, and animation upgrades to be 'Blade of' spells
- Shield Bash now a conal aoe including stun effect
- Atonement becomes one button, three part combo
- Goring Blade gets name, and animation upgrades, and maybe a shorter cooldown

It might be a bit overkill, but it might be kinda neat if every tank's two minute mitigation buttons received upgrades that include bonus mitigation in the first few seconds like what was done with most of the spammable mitigation buttons.

Change DRK's animations to something more impactful, go copy Monster Hunter or FFVII-R or something.
Remove Shadow Friend, it's like the most anticlimactic skill in the game. Oh I'm a badass knight with a giant sword and my ultimate move is to... let someone else hit the enemy for me.

Give me something like this:

https://img.wattpad.com/3d544ad98fe1...3535332e676966

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

A second charge for Bow Shock, Sonic Break, and No Mercy.

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I don't really want to critique people since I just want to see what everyone kind of wants...but are you sure about this one?

Any ability with 2 charges that line up with bursts (2x 30 sec = 60 sec) means "save all of these and only dump them all in burst. So instead of every 30 sec using Gnashing Combo + Danger Zone + Bow Shock, what this would do is mean you just save them all for No Mercy and then dump even more stuff in No Mercy. Not to mention Bow Shock would be weird since it's a DoT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jidka

[*]Why not Clemency as an level 50 oGCD ?[/LIST]

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oGCD heals are probably the biggest problem in the game right now. They're "free" healing that requires no decision making. Right now, with Clemency, you have to stop and think "Do I/the party need this healing bad enough for me to stop being a damage dealer to be a healer?". If it's an oGCD, that calculus goes away.

Further, this would be a huge nerf to PLD in PotD, HoH, Eureka, and Bozja, as in all of that content, PLD only has Clemency as a heal (Shelltron doesn't heal until 82 and Holy Spirit/Circle/Confetior do not until level 84). Right now, if you need healing, you can bunker down and use 2-3 Clemencies in a row. An oGCD Clemency would be single use only.

So I feel like those would be downsides. It'd be too powerful in general PvE, while being far weaker and more limited in solo content and Deep Dungeons/Exploration Zones. Do we really want greater proliferation of overpowered oGCD healing that costs nothing to use and even further trivializes content and enables 0 healer runs of everything? Is that healthy for the game? Clemency (and Vercure) are, imo, the best non-healer heals in the game right now. They require the player to ask the question "is this situation worth me ceasing to be a DPSer to be a healer for a minute?". That's good design, since it means you save it for emergencies, but when emergencies strike, you have it. Unlike Curing Waltz, which is effectively free and powerful whenever you like and costs you nothing to use, and Nascent Flash, which is basically the same and on a ridiculously short CD making it pretty broken/overpowered.

.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Carry on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

oGCD heals are probably the biggest problem in the game right now. They're "free" healing that requires no decision making. Right now, with Clemency, you have to stop and think "Do I/the party need this healing bad enough for me to stop being a damage dealer to be a healer?". If it's an oGCD, that calculus goes away.

Further, this would be a huge nerf to PLD in PotD, HoH, Eureka, and Bozja, as in all of that content, PLD only has Clemency as a heal (Shelltron doesn't heal until 82 and Holy Spirit/Circle/Confetior do not until level 84). Right now, if you need healing, you can bunker down and use 2-3 Clemencies in a row. An oGCD Clemency would be single use only.

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I feel like the issue is that the situation this comes up in is where you have no healer or you're somehow struggling with healing in the general group which healers don't really need to GCD heal or like you've pointed out your in a solo instance run of something like POTD, which are all valid concerns and reasons for clemency over a ogcd heal that's one use.

I think the Solution Would be that Clemency is apart of MP management (like I've said above), So it's still tied to your damage if you're over using it and it can remain a skill that can be spammed, as by design you will lose out on magic attacks (your big burst damage) if you're over using it for those situations, But if you used clemency more wisely and reserved (lets say 1-2 times per minute) you wouldn't lose out on MP burst.

Obviously this would take them having to tune How much MP you gain through attacks and MP values in general, I also think if they made clemency a more active general skill they should remove divine might healing (I personally would rather it be replaced but targetable healing anyway). I just rather have something that's useful in all content then in rare moments.

I'll save (most of) the overambitious version(s) for later, I guess, and just throw out some at least mildly feasible spitballs...

General

• Macros un-neutered (allowed to queue, etc.) up to the point of the first skill actually actuated. Players are free to combine what they will, though they still only reliably get one action per button-press.
• Especially long animation locks, like that of/from consumables, have been reduced to more standard durations. All actions may now be queued.
• Skill Speed and Spell Speed consolidated into Speed. Critical Hit again just changes the chance of scoring a critical hit and crits all just do +50% baseline, but "guaranteed crits" now instead add 100% chance and excess chance is now converted into additional effect; a 120% chance of a 150% effect crit becomes a 100% chance of a 160% effect crit.
• Tenacity, Piety, and Direct Hit moved to Tertiary Stats, which compete only among themselves. Tenacity no longer gives any extra damage but now also reduces the duration of most debuffs. Piety has been replaced with Vigor, which increases MP and HP naturally restored over time. Direct Hit has been replaced with Mobility, which increases your movement speed and the effect of movement speed bonuses received.

ALL TANKS

• Tank Mastery has been removed. Tankbuster damage has been reduced accordingly, but in a decreasing portion the further those tankbusters weaken from lethal values. (I hate trait bloat, and Fending's gear's eHP gap is already plenty massive.)
• Enmity is now positionally dependent. Strikes made from the rear create 30% less Enmity. Strikes made from the flanks create 15% less Enmity.
• Tank stances are now on by default (turned on upon swapping to a tank or joining any instance as one).
• Provoke now, for 4 seconds, forces the target to attack the one who Provoked it. It also increases the target's Enmity received from the one who provoked it by 30%. This is a hidden effect which lasts indefinitely.
• Rampart has been removed from the game. Job-specific mitigation tools have been buffed in frequency, control, and power its place.
• Shirk has been removed.
• Low Blow and Interject have been consolidated. Interject now uses the old Fracture animation (on PLD, pummel-bashing and then goring the enemy between their clavicles; on WAR, just bashing their head in), rather than the wimpy spin-to-win animation. It also now also stuns and pacifies, has a second charge, and recharges over just 20 seconds.

Paladin

• To compensate for the loss of Rampart, Bulwark gains a second charge and its CD is reduced by a third.
• Now legitimately uses MP, instead of relying on Requiescat and/or Divine Might to be allowed to actually use its spells. Your spells now consume up to 100% more MP to deal up to 50% more potency and take up to 100% less time to cast based on your %MP (effect maxed out at 8000). (This reaches full effect at above 80% MP.) Base spell potencies increased, becoming output-positive at around 60% MP.
• Goring Blade removed. Though it adds some burst, that can be provided in other ways, and it basically just gets bundled as bloat.
• Each stack of Sword Oath now causes your next use of Fast Blade, Riot Blade, or Royal Authority to be upgraded into a new skill that emphasizes a direct damage (Judgment), MP generation (Atonement), or gauge generation (Reckoning), in respective order, granting more control over what the PLD actually wants to build towards. This supersedes but does not cancel existing combo progress.
• Fight or Flight now grants 3 stacks of Sword Oath and increases your secondary and tertiary stats (Determination, Speed, Critical Hit; Tenacity, Vigor, Mobility) by a flat amount each (equivalent to about 10% Determination and 10% Tenacity, with the other stats each getting an increase of equal stat cost). It no longer increases damage directly. (Think Seraphim, but far stronger, and on a longer CD accordingly.)
• Requiescat just causes your spells to deal full effect as if used at full MP while consuming no MP, no longer requires melee range, and no longer deals damage; it's just a buff. (May want to revise it further for interplay with Fight or Flight in a less obvious way than just stacking them together. TBD.)
• Confiteor is now a 2-minute CD reduced through MP spent while in combat. (Voila; there's your Goring Blade burst back in a way that makes PLD finisher selection more interesting by trying to sync Confiteor to add spawns or, failing that, to raid buffs.)
• Cover now costs no gauge.

Paladin (Overambitious Version Preview, as Food for Thought)

• Role Actions removed. Rampart's sustain and control has been siphoned to existing tank-specific skills. Tanks' Enmity generation (and Enmity generation in general) has been revised as to no longer need a Tank Stance nor Shirk to gain, hold, or avoid aggro, mostly through a new Focus system (which influences Enmity generation based on your actions in coupling with mob AI) and through relative positioning. Tanks (and certain others) still have (now varied) means of oGCD snap-aggro, but not necessarily as an entire taunt.
• Most actions not strictly lore-related to their job are now class skills. We now gain new actions and significantly gameplay-affecting traits far more quickly in early game than in late-game (skills have all been shuffled towards earlier levels). For instance, of PLD's roughly 44 actions or gameplay-affecting traits added after pruning Role Actions, it'd gain an action or gameplay-affecting trait at, say, 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36, 38, 40, 42, 44, 46, 48, 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60, 62, 64, 66, 70, 72, 74, 76, 80, 82, 84, 86, 90. (And you'd probably actually split up some of those traits for a smoother contextualization into leveling, allowing you to fill out the holes a bit.)
• Content sees considerably more damage events via new, minor attacks and mechanics, neither quite constant nor necessarily wholly chaotic, but enough to certainly add some pressure and more to work around between scheduled bursts. AoEs' visuals have been revised, progressing from light yellow to red (with additional contrast for floors) to convey their damage, and ripple two pulses from their center to edges to signal the remaining time until the AoE goes off and to imply whether the AoE will pierce, half-pierce (deal diminished damage with each additional enemy struck), or stop after the first player struck. Wholly free player mobility has been faintly tuned down, making it so that some AoEs may be worth standing in for the damage, depending on available healing.
• Most mob attacks now "skillshot" to a degree, making them interceptible by others (generally done by tanks, for obvious reasons, though those with defensives may cover for others to save healing GCDs or prevent an ally's death). Gladiators receive the "Shield Wall" trait that allows their Defense to stack with those they are defending when they "intercept" an attack meant for someone else, up to 50% of their own. Paladins gain the "Guardian" trait that extends their interception range by an additional 2 meters.
• WIP... Idea centers around PLD being a much more "deliberately" versatile (you can tell what they're going to do before they do it because of how they build towards it) support-capable tank opposite DRK's more "cunning" versatility (lots of mob manipulations and complex interactions not terribly visible to allies), built around MP and Oath (which can now vary between Shield Oath and Sword Oath). (GNB and WAR are both more mixed-output, with WAR being a bit more team-supportive as a sort of "strike leader" or "holdout" [has enough flat and time-insensitive sustain to survive attrition fights] and GNB being more solo or duo-oriented but reliant on burst damage[-with-suppression] and mobility for its survival.)

WARRIOR

• Raw Intuition again provides pure mitigation, again giving the choice between bunkering down and healing from damage dealt.
• Thrill of Battle gains a second charge, and its cooldown is reduced.
• Raw Intuition no longer upgrades into Bloodwhetting. Raw Intuition remains even at level 82+, simply gaining the 400p of barrier.
• Nascent Flash renamed to Bloodrage (seriously, how is "Flash" a Warrior skill) and again heals for a % of damage dealt and healing done. If used on a party member, they heal for a % of their damage dealt and their healing done. At level 82, it grants 400p of barrier.

DARK KNIGHT

• Edge/Flood replaced with a revised form of Dark Arts that follows up the prior action instead of buffing the next. In this way, we technically get ~16 different possible spenders [~12 attacks and ~4 defensives] with a single button instead of 2 possible spenders for 2 buttons. All carry some degree of utility, with only 3 being rotationally obligatory (Scourge after Heavy Slash per 30s, Soul-Sunder after Carve and Spit per 60s, and Salt and Darkness after Salted Earth once per 90s). This still costs 3k MP at a time.
  
  Apart from those 3 rotationally-obligatory actions, Dark Arts typically grants about 10 potency per %MP consumed (~300p per offensive Dark Arts), down from 15.3, making it less costly to spend defensively.
  
  
• Dark Dance trait added, functioning much like the existing Dark Arts but much more flexibly and serving to grant roughly a free cast each of defensive and offensive spenders per minute. It causes your MP-spending defensive actions to each nullify up to 3000 MP that would otherwise be spent on an attack while you are below 50% MP, based on the amount of damage nullified by the defensive use of MP, and each attack slightly to reduce the cost of your next defensive use of MP by 600.
  
  
• Darkside trait revised. It now instead increases Attack Speed by 10% and Movement Speed by 5% for 6 seconds per MP spender. Multiple instances may exist simultaneously, to a maximum of 4 stacks' worth of additional Speed, but do not refresh one another. Darkside gauge UI rehauled. (Yes, you can go fast now. Yes, this will mean potency changes across the board.)
• New trait added, Blood for Blood - Your healing done is increased in equal portion to your missing health. Damage to be taken over time counts as if you had already taken that damage. (Can drop lower for bigger self-heals. Synergizes well with Living Dead.)
  
  
• Delirium made more distinct from Inner Release. It instead now, for 10 seconds, freezes the timers of existing and future applications of Darkside and Blood Weapon or Blood Price while increasing your spells' and weaponskills' MP and Blood generated by 50%.
• Blood Weapon again lasts a set duration, 12 seconds, rather than for 5 hits. It therefore marks a burst window (since you want small GCDs via Darkside over that time, rather than merely a 1-off resource-generator CD (one free MP and Blood spender each).
  
  
• Shadowbringer now costs 3k MP in itself. Salt and Darkness is now a Dark Arts action, thereby costing 3k MP. This adds 3 weave spaces, reducing our maximal condensed oGCD load from 16 to 13, giving enough room for all our class defensives.
• In compensation for the added MP costs above, we generate roughly that much more MP (5600 more MP generated per minute). Carve and Spit now generates 600 MP and deals 210 potency for each of its 3 strikes (1200 more MP/min), Blood Price has been returned and can be cast on others, and the remainder is handled by Syphon Strike, Stalwart Soul, and Blood Weapon's MP per hit.
• All in all, this will move 3 casts per 2 minutes from our most overcrowded sections to our more barren sections. We remain bursty, especially with Darkside creating mini-burst windows, but it's less concentrated into just our 2-minute windows.
  
  
• Living Shadow, Blood Weapon, and Blood Price can be much more flexibly timed, functioning more alike to a stance than mere rigid CDs, draining X seconds of charge skill for every second active. They must be at least 40% charged to be used and cannot be toggled off until having lasted for at least 40% of their maximum duration. They're therefore flexible, but not easily cheesed.
• Living Shadow no longer costs Blood. Maximum charge time increased to 180 seconds. Maximum duration reduced to 18 seconds (drains 9 seconds charge per second of use). Potency increased. If toggled off, Living Shadow will end after its next attack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

<Original Version>

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GUNBREAKER

• <Still very WIP.>
• In compensation for the loss of Rampart, Camouflage gains a second charge and its cooldown is reduced by a third. It also now grants a burst of speed (30%) for 2s on activation and each time you parry or a nearby enemy is stunned or interrupted.
• Burst Strike now suppresses for a portion of damage dealt.
• Continuation now grants "Blur of Steel", which increases your Parry chance by 30%, stacking indefinitely. Multiple applications may overlap, but they do not refresh each other and fade separately. Each application lasts 3 seconds.
• Fated Circle later gains a Continuation.
• Gnashing Fang later gains a second charge but also increases your Attack Speed and Critical Strike rate each by 10%, fading over 30 seconds. Potencies adjusted to compensate for this consequent damage bonus. This should keep it still to roughly a per-30s rhythm.
• Bloodfest has been replaced by Draw. Draw can be used on allies or enemies while in combat, generating a Cartridge and changing Draw to Release for 30s, giving access to a further action, with a passive buff in the meantime. Two charges. It effectively provides an active skill usable within 30s and a passive effect lasting for 30s, again encouraging spread-out actions despite offering the added flexibility of a second charge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

oGCD heals are probably the biggest problem in the game right now. They're "free" healing that requires no decision making. Right now, with Clemency, you have to stop and think "Do I/the party need this healing bad enough for me to stop being a damage dealer to be a healer?". If it's an oGCD, that calculus goes away.

Further, this would be a huge nerf to PLD in PotD, HoH, Eureka, and Bozja, as in all of that content, PLD only has Clemency as a heal (Shelltron doesn't heal until 82 and Holy Spirit/Circle/Confetior do not until level 84). Right now, if you need healing, you can bunker down and use 2-3 Clemencies in a row. An oGCD Clemency would be single use only.

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You´re right. I didn't think about cooldown nor zero cost.
I thought about a way to use mana in lvl50 roulette because Riot Blade gives us mana and we do nothing with it. (in my mind, oGCD Clemency still cost MP)

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Originally Posted by Jidka

You´re right. I didn't think about cooldown nor zero cost.
I thought about a way to use mana in lvl50 roulette because Riot Blade gives us mana and we do nothing with it. (in my mind, oGCD Clemency still cost MP)

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Yeah, my go-to answer right now is letting PLD learn basically "Cure 1" at a lower level and have it Trait upgrade to Clemency. WHICH USED TO BE A THING back in ARR/HW when PLD could Cross-Class some CNJ abilities (also Raise, but only could use it out of combat). That is, give PLD a lower level heal spell that then upgrades to Clemency.

Clemency is ridiculously powerful for what it is, but it's good design to me because it requires a complete trade-off of "you can be DPSing or you can be healing, but not both", which prevents it from being used all the time. Unlike Nascent, which has no trade-off and, as a result, has given us "Green Tank" WAR completely taking over as healer for 4 man dungeons. A lower level Clemency could be just 500 potency and no 50% splash heal when using on someone else (where it also heals the PLD), and when you get the Trait to Clemency, it gains that 1000 potency and 50% splash.

I also feel like things like Holy Might should come earlier, at latest level 50. One thing I think WAR does REALLY well is that you have ESSENTIALLY your whole kit and rotation by level 50, and after that, you just get little additions and cool stuff added on (gap closers, etc), but this means for 90% of the content in the game that you get from syncing (everything that isn't Guidhests or level 15-49 dungeons, all 6 or so of those, in Leveling Roulette), WAR still feels MOSTLY like level 90 WAR other than not having Raw Intuition until 52. But in terms of the rotation, it's all there, more or less. Even in lower content, you still have low level Fell Cleave, low level Inner Release, etc. PLD doesn't have Holy Might until 64 (in SB) and doesn't have Atonement until 76 (ShB) and Confetior until 80 (at least Requiescat + 4 HS KIND of gives you a similar feel, but you don't even have the base rotation of 1-2-3-4-4-4-5 until level 76!)

I feel like a lot of Jobs need that, like WHM should get at least Afflatus Solace by level 30 and ideally a lower level Misery around then, too. Lilies+Misery is the core of level cap WHM gameplay, but you don't even get Solace until level 52 and don't get Misery until 74. That'd be like NIN not having Mudras until 74 other than Fuma Shurikan, or WAR not getting Storm's Eye and Fell Cleave until level 74 or something. Traits exist and upgrade abilities now, so there's a good avenue for how to deal with this sort of thing in game.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I think the Solution Would be that Clemency is apart of MP management (like I've said above), So it's still tied to your damage if you're over using it and it can remain a skill that can be spammed, as by design you will lose out on magic attacks (your big burst damage) if you're over using it for those situations, But if you used clemency more wisely and reserved (lets say 1-2 times per minute) you wouldn't lose out on MP burst.

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The sad thing is, it was this way in ShB. Requiescat only gave you boosted magic damage if your MP was at least 80%. This meant you could cast roughly 1-2 Clemency per minute, as any more than that, your MP wouldn't have gotten back above 80% before Requiescat was ready again. Granted, the 2 min burst wasn't a thing at the time like it is now (and PLD kind of ignored it anyway), but it was a DPS loss as you'd need to do some more combo/Riot Blade, and possibly do another 1-2-Royal-1-2-Goring before you could go into your Requiescat.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Yeah, my go-to answer right now is letting PLD learn basically "Cure 1" at a lower level and have it Trait upgrade to Clemency. WHICH USED TO BE A THING back in ARR/HW when PLD could Cross-Class some CNJ abilities (also Raise, but only could use it out of combat). That is, give PLD a lower level heal spell that then upgrades to Clemency.

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I'd dig that. Sure. Make it a level 30 addition for them, even, since although Gladiator could also use Cure before (anyone could), it doesn't really fit Gladiator's aesthetic any more than any other DoW class.

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Clemency is ridiculously powerful for what it is, but it's good design to me because it requires a complete trade-off of "you can be DPSing or you can be healing, but not both"

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Aye. This. I think Clemency feeling weak speaks also to its successive nerfs (tanks no longer receiving flat %throughput trait bonuses, Clemency no longer being buffable by Requiescat, etc.), but even more than that -- to the reduction in healing requirements and to the focus damage that used to make Cover and single-target off-heals seem pretty darn valuable (no more healer jails during high damage intake, etc.).

Let its max effect be a bit higher but come at slightly further DPS cost for a bit more swing and... honestly, it's fine if it sometimes doesn't see use (when, frankly... the fight design balance is out of whack and/or tanks have a bit too much free ally-affectable sustain [that is, damage nullified + HP restored]-- as it is the case right now).

I wouldn't hate the occasional Clemency oGCD, but if we feel it's necessary to make that button feel worthwhile, then we're dealing with symptoms, not the disease. Worthwhile, if that's all we can manage, but hardly ideal.

___________

Tangent: Anyone got any interest in, or ideas for... way more interesting shield-related stuff from Paladin?

Probably a whacky PLD idea, but what if Passage of Arms no longer had a cool down, and instead it depleted a gauge so it can be used whenever you wanted, for as long as you needed as long as you have the gauge.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Tangent: Anyone got any interest in, or ideas for... way more interesting shield-related stuff from Paladin?

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I don't know if I'd say it's *way* more interesting strictly speaking, but I do think it'd be pretty easy to expand upon it in small ways that feel meaningful, at least.

Firstly you could probably change the paladin casting animations to use the shield instead of the sword as the foci, letting it be the thing that glows and channel mana through it esp for things like Clemency. Shield lob could either directly upgrade to holy spirit, or grant a free divine might stack to make PLD a bit more mobile when disengaging if it was decided it needed to stick around for some reason. Get rid of Intervene, replace it with Shield Charge as a GCD gap closer that can target enemies or allies, with it doing roughly average combo damage to enemies, or granting a decently sized barrier when used on allies. Bring back shield swipe as a small damage gain over your combo that procs off blocks. Add an effect to shield bash that gives a significant chunk of damage as feedback when used a few seconds before a tank buster goes off. Maybe make it work with stacks markers too if you want it to be a button you get to use a little more often.

I'd probably bring back MT/OT stances too, but have the alter how you're playing slightly. Also cut the number of atonement you get per combo from 3 to 1. Tank stance would increase your block rate to make shield swipe procs easier, enable the tank buster counter attack effect, and maybe increase the damage on shield lob/charge. The OT stance would add a side positional to royal authority for a minor damage boost, and a back positional to atonement that gives you a stack of sword oath, and when you got 3 sword oath stacks it'd let you use Goring Blade as a big hit GCD attack. Not super involved, but makes them a little different, and gives OT a way to make up the difference by not having access to the When Hit Deal More Damage style attacks MT has.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Probably a whacky PLD idea, but what if Passage of Arms no longer had a cool down, and instead it depleted a gauge so it can be used whenever you wanted, for as long as you needed as long as you have the gauge.

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I do feel like if there were any job deserving of a "hit this whenever tf you feel like it" mitigation skill, it'd be PLD, though I can't help but consider the uptime implications of that. Since we wouldn't want it only ever to be used immediately after our GCD's animation (i.e., in "Gap_1" or as a "round's Action_2"), it'd probably have to hold some sort of balancing factor there.

Personally, I'd also like that to be applicable to most of its (visually speaking, at least) physically/literally-shield-based mitigation, as it seems a waste to have that fun feature only ever seen full use out when used to protect the whole raid.

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Originally Posted by Icecylee

I'd probably bring back MT/OT stances too, but have the alter how you're playing slightly.

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I'm attempting something similar to that right now with Shield Oath and Sword Oath, each carrying some passive and active differences, though there's a lot left to tweak. Having an actual powerful shield has been something I wanted since seeing the Knights of the Round in HW and all the more so after seeing what fun things WoW has been able to do with their shield skills (think the likes of a shield that bounces off multiple enemies or pins one in place Fellowship of the Ring style, a fixed-distance rapid charge that punts enemies in your path, gathering resonant energy from blocks and then blasting that outward in a semi-sphere, etc.). Some AMMORPGs also have done some interesting stuff with shields having a psuedo-separate GCD that allows for some interesting weaving, which seems very fitting for the Gladiator, especially (and therefore indirectly for Paladin).

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I don't really want to critique people since I just want to see what everyone kind of wants...but are you sure about this one?

Any ability with 2 charges that line up with bursts (2x 30 sec = 60 sec) means "save all of these and only dump them all in burst. So instead of every 30 sec using Gnashing Combo + Danger Zone + Bow Shock, what this would do is mean you just save them all for No Mercy and then dump even more stuff in No Mercy. Not to mention Bow Shock would be weird since it's a DoT

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10,000% sure I want this, because my reasoning is holding the second charge of No Mercy, Sonic Break, and Bow Shock while waiting for Gnashing Fang to come off cooldown and then burst again when Gnashing Fang comes off cooldown, though 30 second recast on No Mercy, Sonic Break, and Bow Shock will work as well if the 2 charges seem a bit too confusing to some people. Almost forgot to mention a second charge for Bloodfest as well, so gonna update that really quick.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

10,000% sure I want this, because my reasoning is holding the second charge of No Mercy, Sonic Break, and Bow Shock while waiting for Gnashing Fang to come off cooldown and then burst again when Gnashing Fang comes off cooldown, though 30 second recast on No Mercy, Sonic Break, and Bow Shock will work as well if the 2 charges seem a bit too confusing to some people. Almost forgot to mention a second charge for Bloodfest as well, so gonna update that really quick.

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Okay, but... why? Why would you want a 30s recast on No Mercy, Sonic Break, and Bow Shock just so that the skills become even more thoughtlessly/unvariedly bundled?

While the length of Sonic Thrust's DoT does faintly complicate matters (possibly to the point of some rather unintuitive optimizations in more raidbuff-heavy compositions), Ren is spot on about the general gameplay implications of those extra charges.

TBN shouldn't be able to be overwritten by another DRK's TBN. That's just stupid game design that puts me right out of 3000 MP.

There's my wish.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

TBN shouldn't be able to be overwritten by another DRK's TBN. That's just stupid game design that puts me right out of 3000 MP.

There's my wish.

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I think TBN shouldn't be punishing darks with massive potency loss.

I like the "risk vs reward" aspect of TBN it adds a lot of skill expression to Dark Knight, the issue is that in reality its all risk no reward.
I much rather TBN Actually Increases the next Edge of shadow / flood of shadow by lets say 20%? if used correctly on a target, instead of this punishing ability that you only use when you know it will break.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I think TBN shouldn't be punishing darks with massive potency loss.

I like the "risk vs reward" aspect of TBN it adds a lot of skill expression to Dark Knight, the issue is that in reality its all risk no reward.
I much rather TBN Actually Increases the next Edge of shadow / flood of shadow by lets say 20%? if used correctly on a target, instead of this punishing ability that you only use when you know it will break.

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A reward missed is a punishment. There's no real difference between the two.

If something you can optimize feels more like a punishment than a reward, it generally means only either that the job is tuned such that it needs more perfect use of the given skill than its competitors do of their analogs and/or the type of output rewarded isn't well valued due to the present content tuning and/or errant community perceptions.

Make TBN damage-positive via the bonus damage of 20% of an Edge/Flood and now you've got over 400 relative potency per minute dependent on your using (and popping) TBN on CD.

I'm not against softening the punishment a bit, but rewards missed are still punishment, and it's best to assume that any maximum ppm they produce is just going to be balanced out directly (removed from the skill) or indirectly (other skills of that level range will lose a bit of potency in compensation).

The Blackest Night (Ability/Cost: 0 MP/Recast: 20s): Creates a barrier around self or target party member that absorbs damage totaling 25% of target's maximum HP. Duration: 7s
Grants Dark Arts if the barrier is active on target when a red arrow action is used (tankbuster).

You could even merge it with Oblation and give it a second charge, because it doesn't need to break every time.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A reward missed is a punishment. There's no real difference between the two.

If something you can optimize feels more like a punishment than a reward, it generally means only either that the job is tuned such that it needs more perfect use of the given skill than its competitors do of their analogs and/or the type of output rewarded isn't well valued due to the present content tuning and/or errant community perceptions.

Make TBN damage-positive via the bonus damage of 20% of an Edge/Flood and now you've got over 400 relative potency per minute dependent on your using (and popping) TBN on CD.

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Having something to optimize doesn't always have to feel like a punishment to me I think Third eye is a good example of something to optimize that doesn't feel like you're losing too much if you don't always time it correctly, it gives a job high celling which I view always as a good thing.

Maybe 20% increase is too large, but you can decrease that value to 10% or 5% (or even lower), I think rewarding Dark Knight with a slight damage gain instead of outright punishing the dark knight for 460 Potency each time TBN doesn't pop is way more punishing as a feel.

I think all tanks could use a small gain on proper defensive use anyway, I just thought DRK's current TBN isn't really a fun skill to use, it's more one that just feels punishing when other tanks get what dark knight has but for free, TBN's current design would make more sense if we were in shadowbringers honestly where it had so much more value then other tank defensives.

I don't main DRK but if you don't take enough damage to break it, do you really use TBN ?

I do because I prefere safety over dps but most DRK I meet seem to prefer dps over safety.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

...

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The issue isn't really about how the gain is framed. If it's a potency gain, there's a pressure on you to use the defensive on recast when playing optimally. You'd be obliged to break TBN every 15 seconds to maximize your performance. This is the same reason why Shield Swipe was removed after Stormblood, due to its interaction with Sheltron.

I personally think this is an extreme approach, though. It's fun to reward the player with a counterattack after they use a defensive action. You just need to change the design that there are specific conditions under which that effect triggers (i.e. only on red arrow tankbusters). It's still mandatory at set intervals, except the frequency of this is just once every 1-2 minutes as opposed to all the time. And it also encourages you to shield your co-tank for extra damage output.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The issue isn't really about how the gain is framed. If it's a potency gain, there's a pressure on you to use the defensive on recast when playing optimally. You'd be obliged to break TBN every 15 seconds to maximize your performance. This is the same reason why Shield Swipe was removed after Stormblood, due to its interaction with Sheltron.

I personally think this is an extreme approach, though. It's fun to reward the player with a counterattack after they use a defensive action. You just need to change the design that there are specific conditions under which that effect triggers (i.e. only on red arrow tankbusters). It's still mandatory at set intervals, except the frequency of this is just once every 1-2 minutes as opposed to all the time. And it also encourages you to shield your co-tank for extra damage output.

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Only on red arrow tank busters makes it pointless, because you're already going to use short cd's on tank busters, it's not even a reward at that point, The entire point would be for DRK's knowing fights well in this example would reward them with the tiniest of damage margins, it would actually encourage good use... not just when the game tells you outright to use your skill, I feel like that takes out all the fun out in actually maximising.

I just find the whole idea that if you're not maximising your damage at all times that it's somehow suddenly a bad thing a bit odd... Like I said Third eye rewards samurais perfectly fine currently, I don't see many complain about third eye on samurai.

I just don't see how it's a bad thing in the first place for tanks (dark knight in this case) to actively be rewarded for using proper timing, I'm not saying counter attacks should be tied to a massive chunk of tanks damage, I personally think it should be the smallest of bonuses for being able to pop it more often, even if you had better gear and it would be harder to pop you'd obviously be doing more damage anyway so I wouldn't even see how that's a issue.

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Originally Posted by Jidka

I don't main DRK but if you don't take enough damage to break it, do you really use TBN ?

I do because I prefere safety over dps but most DRK I meet seem to prefer dps over safety.

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It isn't as simple as safety over DPS. If you aren't in any danger of dying after, then you are as safe as can be. If TBN doesn't break, the damage was minimal and so you can safely use other mitigation, if required, and be healed by other means, many of them being passive healing that take no extra effort from the healers, even if it is just using something to heal after a raid wide (remembering tanks take less damage than other jobs).

So really, it is safety whilst maximising damage which is done by taking encounter mechanics, healers and your own defensives into account.

3 pages in, and this thread already stopped being a wish list thread, and derailed off of the main subject, which is a 7.0 wish list...

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I just find the whole idea that if you're not maximising your damage at all times that it's somehow suddenly a bad thing a bit odd... Like I said Third eye rewards samurais perfectly fine currently, I don't see many complain about third eye on samurai.

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The point is to maximize party DPS, not necessarily your own DPS. The problem is simply when broader tuning issues are so out of whack that even forgoing your ~4000 healer potency (~5000 in tank potency) per minute in shielding per TBN oGCD... still might not make enough of a difference to actually force out a GCD heal on you or someone else later (due to using on you a bankable oGCD more than they scheduled out), meaning that the defensive may produce nothing.

If the TBNs were to each, say, produce at least 1 extra Dosis cast made possible, each of which does 429 tank potency in damage atop 221 tank potency in healing (since healers' output is all multiplied by 1.3x relative to tanks due to their Maim and Mend traits and tanks' lack of anything similar), in addition to saving healer MP, TBN would be worth casting any time it could be maxed out even if it didn't grant Edge/Flood on break at all.


As for why people don't worry as much (or rather, since TE was nerfed from its media tour pre-release state to its state since) about SAM needing raid damage every 15s in order to deal its max DPS...SAM has considerably more flexible weave space and the Third Eye's mitigation is frankly pitiful so it wouldn't need to forgo taking advantage of a tickle per 15s to mitigate something near-fatal that'd come up slightly outside of that rhythm. It's just not big enough to make a difference given that SAM already has more HP than certain raidmates who don't have any personal defensives, period (like Rangers, DRG, or RDM).

As such, Third Eye has no conflict between defensive or offensive use that would cause one aspect to be overriden by the other... because it's already purely an offensive tool. It's already that thoughtless. It has no decision-making or impact outside of its up to 40 gauge (worth 452 effective potency) per minute, only some minutia in learning how early you can get away with pre-popping TE in order to grab another 10 gauge as little as 12s later (though still for that max of 40 gauge per minute).


All that being said, Third Eye is arguably an example of how a defensive ought not to be designed (by making it no longer a defensive or leaving it so influenced by wider imbalances that its defensive value is redundant/irrelevant). It doesn't excuse that design; it shows it'd be wasteful even on a Melee DPS. Putting that on tank is not a great idea.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

All that being said, Third Eye is arguably an example of how a defensive ought not to be designed (by making it no longer a defensive or leaving it so influenced by wider imbalances that its defensive value is redundant/irrelevant). It doesn't excuse that design; it shows it'd be wasteful even on a Melee DPS. Putting that on tank is not a great idea.

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Timed tank counter attack role action button would also be kinda cool if it was a purely offensive ability. I like the idea of having a extra layer to your damage. I like third eye and damage gains for timed actions... I just think that's a matter of preference.

I'm not going argue on what I'd prefer anyway a lot of what I'd like in game wouldn't be popular with a good amount of people. I think I much rather TBN just be more rewarding then something so punishing, maybe my idea wouldn't work well for TBN in particular, just really don't like how you have to break it current with no real benefit, but I think removing that aspect would also sort of annoy some people, why I thought maybe it should just reward good use but not outright punish you for using it poorly.

Disclaimer, I dont really play any tanks besides Gunbreaker.

However, I'll give a few thoughts that are probably very bad.
Paladin: They already fixed my biggest gripe, that of Divine Veil not shielding the paladin. All that remains is bringing back Shield Swipe as a Vengeance-esque tool; Deals an attack of 160 potency upon blocking any attack.

Gunbreaker: Doesnt need much of anything, maybe a shield to grant the party.

Dark Knight: Vampirism. And split Abyssal Drain and Carve/Spit's CD again so I can big succ

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

be more rewarding then something so punishing

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Again, a glass half-empty/half-full is still a glass using 50% its capacity, whatever you call that state.

The current system is just a means of letting TBN have an extra 0.6 charges relative to the likes of Heart of Stone/Corundum and IR/Bloodwhetting (technically, up to almost 0.85s, when you consider how far TBN can be pre-popped before a tankbuster), and a way to have a flat sustain tool (just gives X potency of barrier, the max damage nullification of which scales only with your own stats, not incoming damage) scale somewhat with more intensive situations, just as percentile sustain tools would (such as %DR).

TBN's system is a way of providing a bit more skill expression in a thematic way and better nearing parity (e.g., against skills with %DR) without having to be overly homogenous (such as by having %DR itself). It's... pretty damn smart, honestly.


And that current reward for the "risk" of TBN is that added flexibility and up to a free ~2100 extra barrier potency per minute (almost two-thirds more throughput) compared to if it cost no MP but had a fixed 25s CD. That's not insignificant.

It just feels less significant than it should because the reward is sustain, not direct damage, and the ability of tanks to leverage that towards party dps (and indeed the indirect power of tanks in general to provide party dps through means other than their own raw dps) has been so trimmed away over time (and, frankly, was never that great to begin with in XIV).

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just really don't like how you have to break it current with no real benefit, but I think removing that aspect would also sort of annoy some people

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On the other hand, merely softening the punishment somewhat would probably annoy almost no one.

For instance, make Dark Arts granular, having it simply act like barrier HP but for your MP, and consumable only by your attacks and only when you're below 60% MP (i.e., you wouldn't be able to get another spender off after the current one), to a max of... 5000 MP or w/e. Now, have every 2% of TBN's barrier consumed give back 1% of its cost via Dark Arts (so, 60 MP of Dark Arts for every %HP's worth of barrier consumed), doubled if the whole thing is consumed. With that, at least you have a pity prize of up to 1498 MP refunded via Dark Arts for not using up the whole thing.

Or, if you're willing to tick off those who like that sense of fighting for the full pop, skip the doubling for the full pop and just have it refund via Dark Arts 1% of TBN's cost for every 1% of TBN's barrier consumed (120 MP for every 1% HP's worth of barrier consumed).

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Originally Posted by RoboYumi

Dark Knight: Vampirism. And split Abyssal Drain and Carve/Spit's CD again so I can big succ

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By vampirism, you means being healed by a percentage of your damages ?
I like the idea but it looks like the war doesn't it ? Because the war is already specialised in auto-heal when hitting enemies.

I would like to see the tanks divided into flat mit and eHP tank stance i.e. Shield Oath vs Defiance. However, given how bloated shields can get with even just 10% more incoming heals I'd imagine a 25% more HP and 20% more healing tank would make SCH an auto include in savage due to crit adlos.

Regardless I would like to see some changes to universal role skills. I would simply rename Rampart to "20% mitigation skill" or something that clearly indicates what it does in just the skill name alone. From there equipping it to your desired tank job would change its animation and icon to that exclusive job i.e. PLD = Rampart, WAR = Fortify, DRK = Shadowskin etc.

They can also do the same for Vengance. Simply detach it from WAR, make it role skill, and now all jobs have access to a 30% mitigation and small counter effect. The animation rules apply to this skill as well.

Honestly there is potential in role skills to offer universal skills or actions but their animation changes when equipped, offering some uniqueness to the jobs flavor without actually changing effects. It's really the only way forward given the amount of jobs and the hyper balance of the game. You get the same skills functionally but aesthetically vastly different from each other.

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Originally Posted by Jidka

By vampirism, you means being healed by a percentage of your damages ?
I like the idea but it looks like the war doesn't it ? Because the war is already specialised in auto-heal when hitting enemies.

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Yeah an thats reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly dumb when you have Dark knight in the game, has been draining things 20+ years since FFT

Warriors theme is so bloody dumb atm. No one would ever think WAR is a warrior from the outside in this game.

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Originally Posted by Valknut

Yeah an that reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly dumb when you have Dark knight in the game, has been draining things 20+ years since FFT

Warriors theme is so bloody dumb atm. No one would ever think WAR is a warrior from the outside in this game.

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The greater consistency has been DRK spending HP. Actually stealing it (or, being healed through attacks) has tended to be reliant on long CDs or been a pretty poor use of your MP (and one's turn in general) whenever an actual healer is available.

Personally, I don't mind XIV not leaving WAR as literally just "Temporarily Increase Defense", "Temporarily Increase Crit rate", "Temporarily Increase Accuracy", etc. It sold the job as the attrition frontliner who lives or dies by the blade / 'the best defense is an overwhelming offense', and it feels pretty damn "Warrior"-like. ...Certainly more so than just a few blasé stat-increasing CDs and/or being limited to Bangaa with a damn near universal set of debuffs (Rend Power/Magick/MP/Speed, as seen on a majority of physical jobs), First Aid, and "Greased Lightning" of all things, as in Tactics.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The greater consistency has been DRK spending HP. Actually stealing it (or, being healed through attacks) has tended to be reliant on long CDs or been a pretty poor use of your MP (and one's turn in general) whenever an actual healer is available.

Personally, I don't mind XIV not leaving WAR as literally just "Temporarily Increase Defense", "Temporarily Increase Crit rate", "Temporarily Increase Accuracy", etc. It sold the job as the attrition frontliner who lives or dies by the blade / 'the best defense is an overwhelming offense', and it feels pretty damn "Warrior"-like. ...Certainly more so than just a few blasé stat-increasing CDs and/or being limited to Bangaa with a damn near universal set of debuffs (Rend Power/Magick/MP/Speed, as seen on a majority of physical jobs), First Aid, and "Greased Lightning" of all things, as in Tactics.

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No This only true from FF4, and even only in FF4 JP. Comparing how much you drain in FFXI to how much you spend HP for DMG is hilarious. DRK in FFTs best move is Dark sword that is a drain. The Hp saccing is the gimmick of DRK, and the Drain is the identity.

Warrior is so bland in design and theme no one has any idea what it is supposed to be. Oh its the DMG tank, no its not. It the High hp tank, yea no. Its the drain tank, wtf are you high?

DRKS thing can't be the magic tank, that's never going to pan out for either PLD or DRK.

PLD has identity, so does GNB. Its time for DRK to go back to HW, and War to do its own thing for once.

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Originally Posted by Valknut

No This only true from FF4, and even only in FF4 JP. Comparing how much you drain in FFXI to how much you spend HP for DMG is hilarious. DRK in FFTs best move is Dark sword that is a drain. The Hp saccing is the gimmick of DRK, and the Drain is the identity.

Warrior is so bland in design and theme no one has any idea what it is supposed to be. Oh its the DMG tank, no its not. It the High hp tank, yea no. Its the drain tank, wtf are you high?

DRKS thing can't be the magic tank, that's never going to pan out for either PLD or DRK.

PLD has identity, so does GNB. Its time for DRK to go back to HW, and War to do its own thing for once.

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DRK's strongest attack in Tactics, Abyssal Blade / Dark Sword --at Physical Attack + Brave/Faith + Weapon Damage (increased with proximity)-- is not a drain, but rather spends 20% of max HP.
Its drain skill is tied for its weakest, at 80% of Physical Attack + Weapon Damage. Using it costs a minimum of 25% of damage per turn even just relative to basic filler.

DRK appears by name or an obvious analog (not nearly character without related skills that is both "dark" and a knight) in about a dozen FF games, not counting XIV. In all but 2, iirc, it can sacrifices HP for added damage. In only ~4 does it generate HP, and always at significant cost to damage or is gated by a long CD.

Want what you want, but if gaining HP from attacks is to be the "identity" of DRK, why is it typically utterly absent, limited to a long CD that's still not their most notable skill, or weaker than the HP generation from attacks of competing jobs in those same games?

The direction XIV originally went with is WAR "doing its own thing for once". HP generated from attacks is not DRK-exclusive; it's not even typically found/used on DRK in amounts greater than similar jobs.

I'm fine with DRK becoming the vampiric tank instead; it does not matter to me. But there's no need to pretend WAR didn't have an identity for itself back when XIV tanks were still allowed to have them, nor that DRK has historically been more vampiric than it was.