Eden Savage Loot

Hi everyone - this is my first post on the forums

So basically I am here to suggest something with the Eden savage loot. I have been running Eden Savage since its release - only E1S and E2S mind. I clear it every single week and have done for a while to be honest, but I have TERRIBLE rolls (6 - 9 - 1 - 32 - 41) If it was not for the books we get every week for clear I would have no 470 gear. Now I am struggling with my rolls but some lucky people are gearing their 3rd alt class. It is so frustrating

So I would like to possibly suggest 2 possible remedy's

Firstly make it so people who have the gear piece cant roll on that gear piece - now I am almost certain (like 90%) I saw a bard roll on the belt from E1S and had the 470 belt equipped Im also almost certain the same bard rolled for the head piece on E2S and again had the 470 head piece equipped - now in my opinion he didn't NEED these items - I have the 470 belt myself and I have a few other 470 items (i think I have 3 /4 in total) So I press PASS on the items I already have I would rather they go to someone who has not got them

Secondly could you please lower the cost of the 470 items from the vendor, for example the 470 Edengrace Earrings of Fending cost 4 books of resurrection, maybe lower them to 2 books. It would be so much easier, and I think people like me who have extremely bad luck would appreciate this system more than the current one.

Just because the bard didnt need the piece on the class he's on doesnt mean he didnt need the pieces. I'd much rather people bring their well geared main to a weekly clear party than the potentially undergeared alt they may not be as good with. He cleared the fight same as you he has every right to roll on what he pleases.


While i would love for the cost of pieces to be decreased, that wont happen, because people will gear up faster and thus unsub faster.

Well, but they explicitely changed the system from specific drops to chests so that people can also equip their salts by running as the job they feel most comfortable as.

Also don't think they would lower the cost. Savage items have ever had the same cost of tokens since... Alexander, I believe, so no real chance there.

I would like them to make things better for pugs. The current lot system is fantastic if you're in a static, but if you have to put the tier you're just SOL. I'm fortunate enough to have a static and have one that does really well, so I've already gotten bis this tier, but I still certainly feel bad for anyone who has such irregular times that they must pugs, as the was my situation last tier.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Actually the person leading the part SPECIFICALLY stated that it was for gearing main classes only - there was a loot agreement and everything in place the bard did agree to it - The bard did actually break this. But my point is this He had the items equipped he didnt really need them as much as other people, some people were decent and stuck to the loot agreement and didnt roll on the things they already had - and allowed others whos need was GREATER to have them - well accept the bard.



While I agree this may be a point - I think I am more likely to unsub because there's very little chance of me getting something because I have very bad luck and my rolls are just terrible and the system the way it is rather than if I were actually able to get more items - I think if anything that would encourage me to keep going. Also I do remember this for Alex Savage - I had terrible luck there - and actually Did unsub after like 4 weeks of really bad luck with the rolls - its discouraging

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well, if that was the agreement, you could always report them. GMs do actually take loot agreements stated in game seriously. Dont know that it would actually give anyone else that piece, but maybe. Another thing to consider is, were they wearing augmented deepshadow 470 or edengrace 470. IDK anything about Bard BiS this tier but if they had deepshadow they may have preferred the substat array on the edengrace. Ya dig? Again, needing as much as others is subjective. You all cleared together, so you all get the opportunity to roll. If you want to truly enforce something like that, you make a lootmaster party.

I understand being discouraged, but it is what it is. You win some lots and lose some lots. Thats what tome gear is there for. To supplement what you dont have/want.

Well, if there's a loot chest, everyone can always roll Need and maybe be lucky. Meanwhile, with the other system, maybe you are unlucky and Fending never drops, so you can never roll Need.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

now I am almost certain (like 90%) I saw a bard roll on the belt from E1S and had the 470 belt equipped Im also almost certain the same bard rolled for the head piece on E2S and again had the 470 head piece equipped - now in my opinion he didn't NEED these items - I have the 470 belt myself and I have a few other 470 items (i think I have 3 /4 in total) So I press PASS on the items I already have I would rather they go to someone who has not got them

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While the belt isn’t BiS for any of the Aiming, the Savage head piece is BiS for all three. So, technically, he was taking gear for his main job if he rolled and won the i470 Savage head piece.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Now I was almost certain there was a time where FENDING items dropped in Savage but then I thought I dreamed that up - I personally preferred that - I mean then it was only me and the other tank competing for FENDING items, and if the other tank had the items then I am certain he couldn't roll for them again - I mean I find the system they use with the Primal EX's much nicer - It was/is a nicer system in my opinion, it made it easier for people with bad rolls to gear themselves and we were not competing with everyone. I really preferred that system. I do think a lot of people who have really bad luck did too.

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That was the case in both Alexander and Omegascape. They changed specific drops into the coffers because there was always a possibility of double drops or getting drops that no one needed (e.g., casting gear dropping in a group that didn’t have a caster).

Personally, I prefer the new system. In Alphascape, my static went 9 weeks without seeing a single Slaying accessory. In o10s, the Aiming gloves dropped every other week—they weren’t BiS for BRD or MCH. We didn’t have a caster, but our MNK secondary’d BLM and had it geared before his main class with all the casting gear that kept dropping.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Oh yeah its all RNG I get that but like for the Primal EX's the system put in place there stops me from rolling on FENDING gear so if I am with another tank who has lets say 440 gear - and not the 450 gear from the Primal - and FENDING gear Drops then he would get that - I think that is 100% fair, I myself like that system far more than this one, its less competition.

I am honestly just saying the system for people who pug things need to be better, so that they too can get a better chance to gear themselves. Thats all.

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Changing to that system still runs the risk of groups receiving drops that they don’t need—which then are likely to just hit the floor. You still see that with the random weapon drop in E4S—my group hasn’t had a single week go by where we got a weapon we actually needed for a main class save for Week 3, when the WHM cane dropped for our WHM. Each week it’s been a weapon for either: a job none of us play, or a weapon that one of us already got a coffer for (the BLM rod has dropped 4 times our of the 8 times we’ve cleared).

Sometimes you have crap RNG and walk away with nothing—but that happens to everyone. Other times, you have astounding RNG and walk away with all of the coffers. That’s the trade off for a system that guarantees drops to not be worthless.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I did actually check this he had the BiS - he already had them, and as you say the belt is not the best, so then I ask why. He also already had the headgear - the bard genuinely didn't need to roll on the items he rolled on - there were others there who in my opinion their needs were greater than his own he could have just let them have it.

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Was it the i470 Augmented Deepshadow or the i470 Savage head piece? You’re only saying i470 piece, but there are two different ones. If it was the Augmented Deepshadow, well, sadly for him he wasted a twine on that because it’s not BiS for any of the Aiming jobs in any of their proposed gearsets—but the i470 Savage is BiS. The belt is useless because all of them are i470 Augmented. So I’ll concede there if his gear was as you were describing.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I will be honest that is rough, I will just say I am only saying I think the system needs to be better thats all, Im not saying anyone is doing wrong, Im just saying I think it needs to be better, like you just said casting gear dropping in a group that didn’t have a caster, yeah it dose happen, Im just wondering aloud if there's anything that can make it stop happening, but benefit all at the same time. I mean the new system is good, that way, but its bad in the way that people who have say the head piece equipped can again roll for the head piece. I mean that bard for example claimed he was gearing his 5th alt class.

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The only way they could stop the useless drops is to configure an algorithm that reads party compositions each time they queue into the instance, and adjust potential loot tables off of the jobs that the game registers in the instance. But this is only effective really for gearing mains—seeking gear for alts that one may not have in one’s composition would be impossible in this scenario since the game would never drop, say, Maiming gear if there wasn’t a DRG present. That said, I doubt that the developers would take the time to configure coding for this.

Making it so that people cannot roll on a head piece coffer if they have a head piece equipped also isn’t a solution. Because then that prevents them from rolling on gear for alts in pug parties that don’t have “gear your mains only” rules or for statics who are distributing loot for alt jobs (which is what mine is currently doing because all of our mains are geared now). Changing it to Greed Only would be a better solution than to not allowing them to roll at all.

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I ideally would like a system that allows everyone to be able to gear themselves at a similar time span.

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I think that this would be difficult to achieve, because BiS sets are different for each role. Healers, for example, take left side pieces almost exclusively from Savage. Aiming gearsets, on the other hand, take tome gloves, belt, and legs—they have less Savage pieces compared to healers.

When you have optimal gearsets that have different ratios of Savage gear to Tomestone gear, you can’t hope to gear everyone at the same rate. I had my BiS much faster than a lot of my raid mates because theirs took more Tome pieces than mine, for example. So I got a lot of the Savage drops when they first dropped.

Completely gear 5 different classes since Savage Release? In 10 weeks? That's awesome. /s

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I pug things, Im just suggesting improving the system for people who are forced to pug things because its not brilliant for people who do pug things. I personally do not want to have to compete with everyone and their alt classes for gear.

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See my post above. I already addressed things they could do—along with the downfalls of each.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

yes I did did you see mine above where I said a number of times I am suggesting a solution for people who pug, so that they can gear themselves and not have to contend with everyone and all their possible 15 classes.

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These were solutions that would affect both pugs and statics. So, relevant to your scenario.

There is no perfect scenario where no one would have to compete with anyone else. If that is what you are after, you will never achieve it. Even in a static, we still compete for things like weapon and body coffers (to give two examples).

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Yes he had the BiS he did not need the belt for his Bard, tbh from what classes he had levelled I dont know why he rolled for the belt, I think he just did it for the sake of it, I did genuinely go and check this. I think I actually pointed this out a few times now.

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I’ve already addressed the belt—I addressed it in my very first post to you. What about the headpiece: was it i470 Augmented or i470 Savage? That’s the question I’ve asked you.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I think this is a good solution guarantees no one gets a useless drop - I mean that's a good solution, Personally I dont see a downfall with this.

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The downfall is the impossibility for alt class gear to even be obtained. If you have a person who secondaries NIN, but your group doesn’t have a NIN present, how else is Scouting gear going to drop in this system if the loot tables are configured to the jobs within the instance? Eventually, people do gear their mains and alt loot is why they run the content. Implementing a system that destroys running Savage after your main has gear will kill the content faster, which the developers do not want.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

The solution to gearing your alt classes I think being in a static is a solution for this alone.

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So...your solution for those who want to gear alt jobs is to join a static? You realize that this is a two-way street, yes? If you want to reliably gear your main, join a static.

This isn’t a solution.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

The main issue I have come here about is the way the system is for people who pug things. I personally feel it needs to be better, and personally for people who pug things I think a system should be put in place where if the person has an item equipped they shouldn't be able to roll on the EXACT same item, if they want to gear a different class come on that class - that's personally my own opinion. The system is very bad for people who pug things, and dose need to be fixed, that's all I am saying.

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That was already the case prior—if the Headpiece of Aiming dropped and someone was already wearing the headpiece, they could not roll on it. Obviously, because these pieces are Unique and you cannot carry more than one of a Unique item.

This will not work for coffers, however, because the coffers are not “Head Coffer of Aiming” or “Head Coffer of Healing”; they are just “Head Coffer”. You cannot completely lock players out of rolling for a coffer, and the developers will never do this. The only alternative they would possibly implement is the option to Greed Only for players that have a Savage piece equipped—i.e., If you have the Savage headpiece currently equipped on your job, you cannot roll Need for the headpiece coffer, only Greed. Which I think would be fair—but know that even this kind of system will not completely eliminate those rolling for alt jobs—they may be wearing an Augmented i470 headpiece but roll on the Coffer because their alt uses the Savage, for example.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Also you may be happy to take things for you alts when people need them to gear their main, but I personally am not, I would prefer people to be able to gear their main classes first. I'm happy for that I mean I pass on the things I have got, I dont see what the issue is I mean I will not be unhappy that my summoner hasnt got the 470 earrings or my monk both classes are my alt classes and I never play them, so I dont care if they are 470 or 450, personally if the belt drops and someone hasnt got it on their main I am happy for that person to have it.

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Hmm, I think you shouldn’t presume to speak on what I’m happy to take and what I’m not happy to take. Not that it’s any of your business, but I’ve passed on tons of loot for my alt jobs in my static so that others could have it for their alt classes. The only time I really freeroll on alt gear is if no one else wants it—just so the coffer doesn’t hit the floor.

I agree with Hyomin on this. The system now allows everyone a piece to be useable and not have a situation of abandoned gear. Yeah it sucks rolling against everyone but the difference now is that you have a much higher chance of getting extra gear for your job on top of the book since the pool is bigger with coffers.

However if anything I would like a inventory check for it where the game checks your inventory to see if you have the item for your current job and assign the loot actions based on that. For example if you're playing a tank and currently do not have the tank headpiece for E2S allowing you to need, while on the flipside only allowing you to greed if you do have it.

While some jobs BIS is Deepshadow and would still allow them to need if they currently don't have them I think a system like that would be an improvement to our current one. At least adopting more of the JP mindset of getting people who really need the gear taken care of first before those leveling their alts.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

where did I say perfect ? I have said better a number of times, not said perfect once. . . just better please read what I have written.

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You’re asking for a system where you don’t have to compete with other players, as per that post I quoted. Contrary to what you think, I am reading. Are you?

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I have already stated a number of times BiS . . . I wont repeat myself again so please read what I have already written a number of times.

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You merely said i470 headpiece. There are two kinds. I still don’t know if this BRD had the Savage one or the Augmented I’m because you’ve never said. Hence why I keep asking. You could just clarify rather than coping an attitude.

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I am talking about main jobs and a solution for people who use pugs, who have to contend with people who are now running pugs after gearing their main jobs and possible an alt with their statics, maybe their static is now taking a break, not people who are in statics and gearing alt jobs. I'm talking about people who are doing it alone.

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Yes. And I’m offering solutions to cater to these individuals. As I’ve previously iterated.

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Im sorry I previously stated why I am currently not in one did you not read that ? Clearly you didn't, so allow me to explain I was rushed in to hospital to have emergency surgery after a very serious illness, I came out I became unwell again and then went back in, this was before savage was released I believe I may have missed the first week, and while I was away I got replaced, by the static leaders GF, said static have since disbanded because they couldn't get the E1S clear. Also No I never said the solution was to join a Static, mind most people who are in a static do gear their alt jobs this way, I am saying that there has to be a better system in place loot wise, because this one is not working, for example the bard claimed he was gearing his 5th class (how true that is I dont know) but I can tell you now he had all 470 gear equipped, and the classes he used I wonder why he rolled for anything.

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I don’t really care why you are or aren’t in a static. I’m telling you that telling those who want to gear alts to join a static for it is as much a non-solution as telling someone who wants to gear their main to join a static is. Some people don’t want to join statics—so telling them to join one to gear alts doesn’t really get you anywhere. Just like telling you to join one to gear your main doesn’t get them anywhere. Two way street.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Can I point something out here NEED always wins over GREED so you yourself are suggesting a system that cuts gearing alt classes out - also yes I do understand what you are saying with the Deepshadow augmented gear. . . I understand exactly what you are saying but my point that I am making is this - some people have managed to gear their mains and their alt classes while some people who use pugs are still trying to gear their main classes, I think the system needs to be improved for people who use pugs - thats what I am saying, and I am sure people who are not in a static like you are and are puging it like I am would agree.

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I already said that this was an imperfect system. But thank you for pointing out that it’s imperfect.

Bad luck (or good luck) is simply luck. You were just as like to have bad luck with the old system with simply not getting drops. Mathematically, this new system is better. But RNG is a cruel mistress—speaking as someone who has crap rolls all the time.

However, I am starting to fall under the impression you aren’t interested in what I have to say simply because I’m in a static. I may not be pugging now, but I have in the past. So I can understand what it’s like to have crap luck. But anyways, this is my last response to you.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Yes true it dose but also people are rolling against everyone where as before if FENDING gear dropped then only tanks could roll NEED on it - not someone who doesnt play tank but suddenly fancies gearing a tank

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I dunno i'd feel pretty awful in that case if I'm rolling against another tank there is a 50/50 chance I can get a piece of gear that MAY drop in my week of playing.

With more and more jobs getting adding I think this coffer system will be the norm, it's if they adopt the ways to manage it that I think the majority will be happy.

how exactly would the game know if you're in a static or not? that's not something the devs should need to take into consideration when creating a loot system.

RNGesus is rngesus.

Also there is 6 MONTHS in a tier. there is plenty of time. just because you can't gear up as fast as some others doesn't mean the system should change.

I was reading the thread with interest, but then you got very snippy, OP, so I lost interest in what you were saying and any possible solutions you might have to offer. You might want to take on board the suggestion that using an unpleasant tone to people who don't immediately agree with you isn't going to win you fans. Hyomin is a popular poster who always presents her remarks politely; even if I don't agree with her views - I often don't - I always appreciate hearing them for the well presented insights. But you just started to come across as aggressive when she pointed out problems with your solutions

Honestly the system youve suggested just sounds like it'll make it harder for pug parties to form. Currently, the way it works allows me to fill any role in a party i please, tank, healer, or dps, and still lot on gear for whatever alt class i please. For example, a party is mostly filled just waiting on tanks, so despite me having all i need from e1s as a tank, i can join that party to get drops for healer.

Under your suggestion, since those healer slots are already filled for that party and i wouldnt be able to roll need as tank, i'd just have to make my own party. Now there are two unfilled parties in party finder.

So, reading your suggestion, I don't think going back to the older system is the best solution,because the new system is just too good to statics to really throw away like that. However, a better solution,I think, would be to add 1 item at the end of every floor (kind of like how e4s drops 1 random weapon and a weapon coffer) and make that item be for something that's currently on your team.

I decided to make one more post to thorough address some of the things said in response to me after my last post. I’ll start with the proposed solutions in the opening post, and then just go from there. Warning: this post will be long.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I would like to possibly suggest 2 possible remedy's

Firstly make it so people who have the gear piece cant roll on that gear piece

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This was already addressed by myself in a post, but I’ll address it again a bit more thoroughly now that I am not posting from a mobile device. Yes, the developers could make a system like this: if you are currently equipped with a Savage headpiece, then you cannot roll NEED on a coffer drop for a headpiece; only GREED. Which is a fine system on the surface, but it is not perfect. Ultimately, it will not prevent players from not rolling NEED on pieces that they may not need for their main jobs:

1. A tank is not currently wearing the Savage headpiece, and does not need it for his tank BiS. However, he also plays healers, and the Savage headpiece is BiS for healers. By the tank NOT having the Savage tank headpiece equipped, they are still able to roll NEED on a Savage headpiece coffer for their healers under this system.
2. Players can simply equip non-BiS gear on their main job for the option to roll NEED on a BiS piece coffer for another job. This would be a very easy system to exploit this way, as they could just keep their i450 crafted items, equip them when running the content, and roll NEED when the loot drops.

The developers will not ever completely lock a player out of rolling on an item (they want this stuff to be accessible, so taking away access is out of the question); so you would have to compromise on the NEED/GREED system written above. At most, they could:

1. make a coffer Unique—so in places like E1S where 2 earring coffers can drop, players can only obtain 1 of the coffers as opposed to both of them (this is currently possible in this system because the coffers are not listed as Unique items). This would be fine; I think coffers should already be Unique anyways.
2. Prevent players from obtaining more than one piece of gear per floor—if the BRD wins the belt coffer, they cannot also win the ring coffer that dropped.

But even these have their issues and aren’t perfect.


I only stress how imperfect this system is because you are intent on making sure people who don’t “need” the gear cannot roll on it. They will still be able to with this system via very simple exploits that one cannot expect to be punishable via GMs. There is no perfect way to prevent people from rolling on whatever they want—and I don’t think that there should be.
Personally, I don’t think any one person can say “I need this more than you do” when it comes to a group of strangers. Statics are a bit different, where the group collectively decides on loot distribution. PUGs are basically free-for-all, short of running them under Lootmaster (which is an option—but it is incredibly unpopular for a variety of reasons).

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Secondly could you please lower the cost of the 470 items from the vendor

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This is also likely a system that won’t ever change—items will likely continue to cost as they always have, simply because this has been the Savage book system since Alexander (which was an improvement over the Coil loot system, where books didn’t exist at all). However, there are some compromises that they could make:

1. Allow higher tier books to be exchanged for lower tier books (e.g., trade in E3S books for E2S or E1S books—1-to-1 trade). I think this would be a fair thing to implement: E3S books are only good for pants and twines—if someone no longer needs pants/twines, but has to buy a lot of accessories, this allows them to put their “useless” books towards something more useful.
2. Reduce the cost of belts to 4 books instead of 6 books: I can’t argue about the system as a whole being changed, but I think it’s a bit fair to ask for belts to maybe also be 4 books instead of the 6 they currently cost.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Now I was almost certain there was a time where FENDING items dropped in Savage but then I thought I dreamed that up - I personally preferred that - I mean then it was only me and the other tank competing for FENDING items, and if the other tank had the items then I am certain he couldn't roll for them again

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This was the old loot system where you basically got 2 random drops from the entire loot table of a floor. They changed it to address the complaints players had about loot dropping that no one needed (e.g., Casting gear dropping in a group that didn’t have a caster, as opposed to melee or ranged gear dropping instead).

The old system had just as many failings as the new system. Mathematically, the new system is better in terms of drops—the first floor actually gives you more pieces now compared to in the past (3 coffers versus 2 drops previously), and you aren’t stuck with never seeing a certain type of accessory for weeks on end because RNGesus is being a butt. You, unfortunately, have to deal with RNG coming from all players, not just a select few. That’s the trade-off on implementing a system that will always guarantee someone in the party loot that they could use versus a system where one had less competition IF the piece they needed actually dropped.


The only way for the old loot system to really work without those worthless pieces being an issue would be to do what I and Noitems suggested: configure a code to read which jobs are present in a party when they enter a Savage instance, and adjust loot tables according to that. Which would be a fine system initially—eventually, it would start to fail. You make a quip about how I “complained about gearing alts” when I discussed this as a possible solution—I made that point because you have to consider how the system will function as a whole. Not just how it will appease players in the beginning.

As a whole, this system would be good for gearing up main jobs in a party. It would be great for it, because it would eliminate worthless drops and provide only drops that could be useful. You would still have to deal with RNG in hoping that the piece of gear you actually need drops—that will never be eliminated—but parties will at least be guaranteed a drop that someone in that party can use versus one where no one would use it. On the other hand, when people move out of gearing their mains and seek to start gearing alt jobs, this system falls flat and makes it nigh impossible to gear them. They would essentially have to run the content on their alt jobs—which may or may not be feasible (e.g., someone who would like to gear their healers, but has never healed the tier before: they would have to find time to practice the tier and then queue into weekly clears later to earn alt gear, and this may not be practical for them depending on things like free time, personal skill, etc.).

Your specific focus is gearing your main right now—which is fine. But that isn’t the focus for other players, and it won’t be the permanent focus of a lot of players. Once their main is geared, they typically want to gear alts. So you have to consider how a system like this will impact them and impact the content itself. Ignoring what would happen down the line when people want to start gearing alts results in implementing a flawed system because you ignored the bigger picture.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I mean I find the system they use with the Primal EX's much nicer - It was/is a nicer system in my opinion, it made it easier for people with bad rolls to gear themselves and we were not competing with everyone. I really preferred that system. I do think a lot of people who have really bad luck did too.

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If you’re meaning the token system, Savage has that: books. They allow you 1 book each week to save up for purchasing items that you may need if you do not get any drops. Are you wanting the system to be like Extremes where a book drops each clear?


As to specific responses to other things said:

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Can you please point out EXACTLY where i said this - because I haven't - All I have said is the system for people who PUG needs to be better and suggested that it stop people who have the item equipped from rolling on the EXACT same item - thats not saying I dont want to compete with people.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

yes I did did you see mine above where I said a number of times I am suggesting a solution for people who pug, so that they can gear themselves and not have to contend with everyone and all their possible 15 classes.

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To me, this sounds like you are wanting a system where one has virtually no competition—which was the case for some in the previous loot system if they were lucky enough to get the piece they wanted to drop: only tanks and healers really had to roll against one another—a lot of party finders would lock physical ranged and caster spots to specifically eliminate competition on drops. To further reason why I drew such an inference, you do keep referencing the old system where only tanks had to roll against each other for Fending pieces.

I never said that you wanted a perfect system, for the record. I just stated that there is no perfect system for this content—every system they could implement has pros and cons, and I feel as if you aren’t looking at the entire picture for them (see above where I talked about the issue with alt gearing in the system where only gear dropped for jobs present in a specific party).

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Is BiS not an answer ??? do you not know what the BiS is - it was said like back on page 1 I have 100% already made this clear.

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Actually, your opening post never said BiS for the headpiece:

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

now I am almost certain (like 90%) I saw a bard roll on the belt from E1S and had the 470 belt equipped Im also almost certain the same bard rolled for the head piece on E2S and again had the 470 head piece equipped

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You said you were “almost certain” (so not even 100%—this seemed to have changed later) that they had the i470 headpiece, of which I’ve already explained there are two: Augmented Deepshadow and Edengate. You still haven’t clarified which this was—you only continue to say “BiS”, which you only said later on in the thread, not initially. While I do know what the Aiming BiS is, you haven’t been as specific as you probably think you have been, which is why I kept asking about it. I already conceded on the belt—which you brought up again in the post my last post responded to. Anyways, this is the last I’m going to say about this tangent.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

and I have said I personally think some of your solutions would work - like the one you suggested about the system reading the party make up - I think thats a good solution - but then you complained about gearing alts, I said a number of times I am talking about people who are gearing their main - not their alts - and using pugs to do so and how I personally think they should be given priority over someone who already has the item they are rolling for.

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I addressed why I made I made the complaint about alt gearing in this post already, so I won’t reiterate on that.

I will, however, say this: while it is the polite thing to do to yield a coffer to someone who doesn’t have that piece for their main, you cannot force players to yield it. I don’t think any one person is more important than another in a static or a PUG group. You cannot dictate who “needs” an item more than someone else—even when it comes to main jobs versus alt jobs. I think it’s polite for people to yield, and I would prefer if people acted that way—but I cannot force them to do it.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I dont think I said for people who are planning on gearing their alts to join a static I think I said people who are in statics generally do gear their alts - never told anyone to go join a static - and wouldnt do that so sorry I know thats incorrect.

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You said:

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

The solution to gearing your alt classes I think being in a static is a solution for this alone.

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To me, that sounds as if you’re telling players that want to gear alts to join a static so that they can get gear for their alts as opposed to pugging it. Which is why I said what I said. Not everyone who gears alts are in statics—a lot of players pug for their mains and their alts. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Forcing a priority system of mains > alts won’t work because, as I already stated, you cannot dictate who “needs” gear more than someone else. That’s just not something you have the authority to do.

I will add in this, since I didn’t earlier due to being on mobile and I really hate typing long posts on my phone: you mentioned players joining parties on alt jobs if they want to gear those jobs. I just want to repeat that this is not always feasible. Would you want a person who wants gear for their tank to join in on your weekly clear having never actually tanked the fights before? What if 3 people in your group are trying to get gear for casters? Are they all three supposed to join in on casters? What if the DNC wants gear for their healers, but there are already two healers in the party? Sometimes, “just join in on an alt” doesn’t always work.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Also no the old system didn't allow people to roll for their alts . . . so it would have been better . . . but it didn't read party make up so there was wasted drops I think possibly the OLD system with the solution you suggested reading the party make up would be the best solution. Also no its just you haven't listened to any thing I have said. . . and had an attitude

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The old system was also configured in such a way that you may not even gear up your MAIN with drops—it wasn’t uncommon for people to not see their body piece drop or their pants drop, and have to spend books on it. Likewise with being unlucky with random weapon drops and not winning the random coffer (which was also new to the Omegascape raids—Alexander was just 2 weapons). This new system makes it to where someone will always walk away with gear that they “need”—be it for main or alt. Personally, I think the new system allows one to gear up faster compared to the old system.

The suggestion I made is not the best solution. I already pointed out how flawed it would be once people got past the initial, main-gearing stage. I won’t repeat it because this post is really long already (sorry, everyone else). If a system works for the first few weeks, and then doesn’t work for the rest of the time a tier is active, it’s not a good solution. You cannot lock yourself into the mindset of “gearing mains is the most important”.

Also, I only got a little snippy with you because you were, quite frankly, snippy with me first. My patience started to run thin with the post where you assumed I’m “perfectly fine” with taking gear away from other people. However, I apologize for the snippy comments I made towards you.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Thats fine feel free to, but remember I will responed you give your opinion and I will give mine. And my opinion is this The current system is not working, there are people gearing their 3rd 4th or even 5th alt classes and people still struggeling to gear their main classes let alone an alt, that is a FACT.

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This is also not a problem. Just because you’ve had bad luck and haven’t geared your main doesn’t mean you should try to punish other players that have good luck, and try to force them to gear up slower. Bad rolls suck—I get it. But they happen to everyone. They aren’t really a reason to change a system—especially one that can work well if players took on the initiative to attempt to actually organize loot drops (yes, this can be done with PUGs).

EDIT: the rest of my response will have to come after I finish getting ready/eating breakfast. And when I’m not typing on a phone.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

snip

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To be fair, you have no greater "need" compared to anyone else. You want better gear. Why should you have priority because they happen to have more gear than you? The problem with the old system is you'd see countless pieces outright hit the fall because no one wanted them. Going nine weeks without even a chance at getting a Slaying accessory was a lot worse than losing rolls because at least I could have gotten something useful. This tier alone, we've had one weapon out of eight actually be useful.

The only real addendum I think should be changed is making it so you can only Need one piece per week. For example purposes, say you roll Need on the Belt, Ring and Earring coffers and win the Belt. Your subsequent rolls on the Ring and Earring become Greed; i.e. you can only win them if no one else rolls Need. This helps mitigate the RNG since you'll have a 1/5 chance if you lost both rolls. It mat not be your BiS but it's an upgrade for the time being.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I personally have not said I myself have a greater need - The class that uses the item for example a healing class has a greater need for the healing item than the summoner (for example) who has a levelled healer but doesn't use it. Im just saying that makes more sense and its a better system and would be easier for people to gear their main classes while also allowing people to gear their alt classes in other ways while people gear their main. Also you mention wasted drops - we have already discuss a solution for that which I agree would be an amazing solution - an algorithm that would read the party's make up and adjust loot to the classes in the party, that would be amazing in my opinion it at least ensures all classes in the party have a possibility to get a drop. I would also say 4 pieces of gear would be good - 1 Fending - 1 Healing - 2 DPS I mean its just a solution to this current system which doesn't work well for everyone yet works amazingly well for others

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This supposed solution would allow everyone to gear even faster than the coffer system. They don't want to distribute loot based on role for that very reason. Bear in mind, this is current meant to last for nearly seven months. If even a pug tank could be almost BiS within four weeks or less... what incentive do they have keep playing outside a third party website SE wants to pretend doesn't keep their raid scene afloat?

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

No it would just allow people to gear their mains before gearing their alts, and make savage more accessible to everyone, as they would have better chances of gearing.

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Savage has never been more accessible than it is now. You can go in and clear the first three fights with half i440 if you're good enough. Not having Savage gear pieces doesn't make the content inaccessible. It wouldn't be clearable without it if that were the case. And before you shout how gear makes it easier. Yes, that's why tomes exist. It's essentially free gear for people who need am extra push beyond the i450 stuff.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

They do distribute loot this way in some things there is content that you can go in to and get drops for certain classes and them classes have the ability to Need on them - others have the ability to Greed on them it just insures people who play that class and need the gear get it.

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No? The only content where you're guaranteed a piece based on your role is Leveling dungeons. Everything else is RNG.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Okay firstly I think this method would make savage more accessible to all players as it is a lot of players are not bothering with savage because of the loot system the likely hood is they wont get anything because they have to contend with every single person there, even though some of these players have already geared their mains. What I am suggesting is using a system SE has used in the past with a algorithm which reads the parties classes and then adjusts the loot to suit, and no people wouldn't be able to gear up in 4 weeks it would still depend on if they win the loot drop or not - take tanks for example if 1 FENDING item dropped - then both tanks - in a situation where both need it - would roll need and only 1 of them would get this item. Again its RNG dependant it all this system dose is stop people gearing immediately and then gearing their alts immediately after - it gives others a chance to gear their mains first. That is all this system dose there is a similar system in use, but with the algorithm which reads the parties classes this would be a good system - it would stop wasted drops - it would allow people who need to gear main jobs to gear main jobs first - it also allows people to gear their alt jobs (just after peoples main jobs are geared) and there is also a way in which to gear another alt job that is not in the party and thats by using the things it drops (books) I see no issue with this at all . . . it just means some people cant gear their alt classes as quickly as they have already done so while others struggle to gear their main class

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Anecdotes offer nothing since I can just as easily claim more people are partaking in Savage because it's easier now. There's nothing to back that up though. Just like your claim.

Per your own example, you have a 50% chance of getting gear now because a tank piece is always guaranteed to drop. In a static setting, both tanks can get everything by week two. Additionally, you want four drops per floor. That literally doubles the loot table for every floor except E1S. How doesn't that make gearing go by significantly faster? Sure, if you're pugging you might have to roll against another tank but once again, that's 50%. Unless you have the worst luck imaginable, you'll win fairly quickly. They don't want the majority of people gearing up that quickly. Like I said above, if you want better gear, the whole idea of the tomestome system is essentially guaranteed upgrades.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Your opinion not a fact - So if all 470 is not needed why are people still NEEDING it for their alt classes if its not needed as you say



kind of sounds elitist



Okay let me Explain again - Shadowbringers Primal EX drop job based gear (FENDING - HEALING - CASTING - AIMING - STRIKING) - which only the jobs that use these items have the ability to roll NEED feel free to double check that if you need to - this is what I meant - Sorry but your statement is incorrect.





I have the same chances as everyone else 50 - 50 and the reason I said 4 drops is because then all roll chances are 50 - 50. Tanks and healers would have 1 drop chest - DPS would have 2 drop chests. . .everyone has a 50 - 50 chance of getting something. Also no it dose not double the loot table 3 items drop adding 1 more dose not double that doubling would be 6




They don't want people gearing up that quickly - YET some people have their main and an alt class if not 2 with all 470 gear. . . .thats very quickly. This system would just make sure that this wouldn't happen and pace everyone, instead of what has happened happening.

Also you are saying I should put up with tombstone gear thats 460 . . . so why cant the people who have managed to gear their main with 470 and their alt with 470 . . .or their 3rd alt class with 470 - why cant these people be satisfied with 460 on their alt classes like you are telling me I should be with my main. ????????

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You're starting to sound foolish now. Its not elitist to say that you need to have some sort of ability to do savage. Someones not going to clear if theyre just goofing off not doing a rotation or paying attention.

When you say "Shadowbringers Primal EX" drops are you referring to Innocence's accessories? Because Titania only drops weapons in terms of gear and only one at a time. And even in the case of accessories, the drops arent always guaranteed to be an even spread. One of my clears he dropped all casting accessories. Some of them dupes.

If you dont have good luck on rolls, thats unfortunate for you, but its no ones problem but your own. You can upgrade the 460 tome gear, its not like youll be stuck in it forever. And again if youre clearing regularly then you have pages to buy pieces amd upgrade materials with.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Your opinion not a fact - So if all 470 is not needed why are people still NEEDING it for their alt classes if its not needed as you say

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Because they want it? Wanting something is not the same as needing something. I thought much was obvious. Accessibility only implies one's ability to access the content and, theoretically, complete it. Since Savage currently meets this criteria. It is, thus, accessible. With the reduction of its difficulty, ease of jobs and etc., it's even more accessible. Nothing about this is an opinion. It's fact.

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kind of sounds elitist

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Implying someone has to be good to clear Savage at an ilvl below the recommended minimum, is elitist now? Okay...

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Okay let me Explain again - Shadowbringers Primal EX drop job based gear (FENDING - HEALING - CASTING - AIMING - STRIKING) - which only the jobs that use these items have the ability to roll NEED feel free to double check that if you need to - this is what I meant - Sorry but your statement is incorrect.

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Yes? And it drops gear—weapons and accessories only, to be fair—based entirely on RNG. You are not guaranteed to see a Fending ring or a Warrior axe. What prompted this argument was your insinuation loot was guaranteed. It isn't. So no, my statement wasn't wrong. Furthermore, this is what the old system was. And it's bad. You can kill Titania 50 times and never once see that aforementioned Warrior Axe. The only reason people aren't nearly as bothered this is because there isn't a weekly limit on farming totems. You also have crafted as a direct alternative.

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I have the same chances as everyone else 50 - 50 and the reason I said 4 drops is because then all roll chances are 50 - 50. Tanks and healers would have 1 drop chest - DPS would have 2 drop chests. . .everyone has a 50 - 50 chance of getting something. Also no it dose not double the loot table 3 items drop adding 1 more dose not double that doubling would be 6

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No, you don't. There four DPS sub-categories: Maiming, Slaying, Casting and Aiming. Therefore, the DPS can have any two of those four drop in your system. In other words, they have a 25%. These odds diminish even further when it comes to accessories since Ninja shares with the Range and Dragoon shares with Monk and Samurai. As for doubling the loot table. You wanted, and I quote, 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 DPS drops per floor, yes? Currently, you only receive two equipment drops in every floor except E1S. Thus, your solution adds two more: which is four.

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They don't want people gearing up that quickly - YET some people have their main and an alt class if not 2 with all 470 gear. . . .thats very quickly. This system would just make sure that this wouldn't happen and pace everyone, instead of what has happened happening.

Also you are saying I should put up with tombstone gear thats 460 . . . so why cant the people who have managed to gear their main with 470 and their alt with 470 . . .or their 3rd alt class with 470 - why cant these people be satisfied with 460 on their alt classes like you are telling me I should be with my main. ????????

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That means they are still partaking in the content, which means they're still gearing. SE doesn't care if it's your main, alt, alt character or your cousin Dwayne. They want people to keep participating because content this content is supposed to last. If you can gear extremely fast, so could the person now who lucked into additional gear for their alts. Which means, now both of you will have less incentive to keep doing Savage each week.

Go ask them. A better question would be why are you entitled to the Savage drops more than them if you both put in an effort to clear? I'm fully BiS on Dragoon yet I also play tanks. If you and I both join a party, why should I get nothing out of the run except a page—which you also get? Why does your main have priority? Would it be nice of me to pass, especially if I don't need the piece? Sure. And I more than likely would. But I'm not obligated to do so.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

You are now sounding offensive - also how is suggesting a solution that evens out the odds for people and allows people the ability to gear their main class before people gear their alt classes foolish - please explain how equal chances are foolish




If someone is goofing off in a dungeon are they going to clear said dungeon - no they wont - I do not think that is what the other person meant



Yes I am - and yes i see what you are saying but with a system in place that reads the party's make up - and evens out the drops say 1 for healing classes 1 for tank classes and 2 for DPS classes then everyone would have a 50 - 50 chance of getting something - this would become a better system than what it is now and the system being used for Savage - also can I point out even in Titania a black mage could not roll NEED for a white mages weapon, the white mages weapon would go to the white mage, the class that used it. And also the need / greed system worked fine in these primal EX's Need before Greed.



The point here is some people have managed to gear their main classes and are still getting items for their alt classes the system i am suggesting would at least allow people to gear their main classes first and then allow people to have gear for their alt classes - basically it just means some people would wait before gearing alt classes - in my opinion not a big thing - Clearly some people think its a huge issue to not be able to gear what ever number alt class after people gear their main. You say use the tombstone gear - well couldn't the people who are gearing their alt classes use the tombstone gear while people gear their main classes ?

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The foolish comment was specifically in regards to you claiming someone saying "you can clear savage in less than ideal gear if youre good enough" is elitist. Hence, why it was in the same paragraph. Also dungeons are brain dead easy enough (and without consequences) that a person probably could still clear them.

Most people who are gearing alts (at least that i know) are still attempting to get BiS, which requires a mix of savage gear AND tome gear. So they are in fact using tome gear for alt classes.

I've stated earlier my thoughts on your idea for a new system even in pug groups (to reiterate, it limits people's flexibility to fulfill multiple roles as needed, as they wont want to join on a class that they dont need gear for, as well as being really inconvenient for static groups. Also, in the case of dps its not a 50/50 chance as theres not a guarantee that say an aiming piece will drop with a DNC/MNK/DRG/SMN comp.) Also your idea favors those who start the tier later than others, which would be a nice catch up mechanic for say 5.15 or something, or even in 5.2. Not so good for when the content is current.

Another long post incoming. I should probably stop resorting to writing novels...but there was a lot to say...

Now that I have finished my breakfast—

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Thats fine feel free to, but remember I will respond you give your opinion and I will give mine. And my opinion is this The current system is not working, there are people gearing their 3rd 4th or even 5th alt classes and people still struggling to gear their main classes let alone an alt, that is a FACT.

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A bit of a reiteration, but the current system seems to be working fine if, as you say, there are players out there already gearing alts. That means that their mains are geared—which implies the system is working.

Saying that the system isn’t working simply because you’ve specifically had poor luck doesn’t mean that the system isn’t working as whole. Keep in mind that there are players that have been clearing this content consistently for 9~10 weeks—and I mean the tier as a whole, not just the first two floors. Are they supposed to yield to players that are late to clearing the entire tier? Why? What good reason can one provide for this?

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

The second fact is this, this system works better for people in statics who know the people they are raiding with and are making sure that the people they are raiding with are geared, and vice versa. Others have also said this, and a system friendly to people who pug things would be welcome, also I believe it would encourage people to take part in this more.

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I won’t argue that this may work better in statics—but I think that’s purely a result of statics being willing to organize loot distribution. This is something PUGs aren’t willing to do, although it is still possible should they opt to put in the effort to do it.

Encouraging easy gearing for PUGs won’t really incentivize Savage—because the system isn’t why players don’t participate. A lot of players don’t participate due to personal skill. Others don’t like Savage anymore because there’s no longer prestige to clearing (e.g., the content is too easy compared to the past, and rewards can be earned by anyone in a year or two down the line when everyone has better gear and can steamroll the content). Some don’t raid Savage because the gear doesn’t last longer than six months before being invalidated.

There’s a myriad of reasons why players don’t do Savage content. I’d wager to say that the current gear system is fairly low on that list of reasons.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

My solution to this is propose a combination of an older system the system being used in Shadowbringers Primal EX's and tweak and improve on it yet again, to make it fairer than the current system which allows some players who are lucky to gear up multiple classes and some who are unlucky to struggle gearing their main.

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The Shadowbringers EX primals system IS the old Savage loot system: RNG loot drops that players can either NEED on or GREED depending on if it’s for their class/role or not.

There is nothing special about the EX primals loot system. It has the same pitfalls as the old Savage loot system—the weapons are actually really bad in terms of drop rate : 1 weapon drop per primal with a loot table of 17 different options. That makes theoretical drop rates of getting the items you want a 1/17 chance—a 0.058% chance you’ll actually get your weapon to drop in a given run.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

There is a system like this currently in place being used in the primal EX's if you go in to a shdowbringers primal ex and have certain tanking items equipped then tanking items drop you can not roll NEED on the tanking items which do drop, same for healers, and DPS, this also allows people to gear their alternative classes as people no longer NEED items and then the system then goes by GREED and also allows people to gear their alt classes with the tokens that drop from the boss.

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As I said above, this system is literally the old Savage loot system: Savage loot used to drop 2 items from a set table of loot once a week when people cleared. The 2 items could be Fending, Healing, Maiming, Scouting, Slaying, Aiming, or Casting. They could be any combination of the above (e.g., Fending and Healing; Healing and Casting; etc.) or even double drop the same role (e.g., Fending ring, Fending belt)—they could even be the same item (e.g., 2 Fending rings).

This system does not allow one to gear up any faster or slower because all runs have the possibility of dropping loot that no one actually needs (e.g., non-BiS items, or items that people already have). The new system drops coffers that one can use on any job/role to receive any piece of gear that they want—near guaranteeing that useless drops aren’t a thing anymore.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

This system would be an improvement to the one used in Savage in my opinion, at least then there is a stronger possibility people would gear their Main Classes instead of some players who are lucky to gear up multiple classes and some who are unlucky to struggle gearing their main.

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A system shouldn’t be changed because some players have bad luck with their rolls. There is no way for you to arbitrarily decide who “needs” gear more than someone else; and you can’t really dictate that gearing mains is “more important” than someone gearing an alt when you are dealing with strangers.

Again, I really want to stress that some raiders have been clearing this content since Week 1. Those players will almost always gear up faster than players who have not been clearing it since the first week—or who haven’t ventured into later floors yet, as you yourself haven’t. You do not have the authority to limit players that have more clears under their belt on gear. You don’t even have the authority to limit players with better luck than you on gear. That’s a selfish desire if that is what you desire.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I do believe it could still be worked upon though in the way in which you suggested earlier by having a way for the system to read the parties make up. I also believe this is a good suggestion and improvement for the current system, make a coffer Unique so players are stopped from obtaining more than one piece of gear per floor, I mean there has to be something thats better than the current system we have because its basically a system that favours lucky people and statics. Not people who PUG and others agree the system is really bad for PUG.

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I’m not opposed to making coffers Unique items. But I have to disagree with the algorithm to read party compositions being the best solution here. As I have said before, it runs into issues with gearing alt classes—and eventually that is what players shift to. As I’ve also said previously, “just join on your alts” doesn’t always work.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I never said people should lock anyone out of anything

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In all fairness, you are advocating for a system to lock players out of gearing alts before others gear their mains. You are under the impression that prioritizing those who are gearing their mains is more important—but you don’t have the authority to really make this declaration. No one player is more important than the other when it comes to obtaining loot drops in scenarios where players have not directly established loot rules—which is how most PUGs are run.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

also no, I do believe the need and greed system would work it would just mean that someone who wants to gear their Tanking alt wouldn't get the TANKING gear until the people who main TANK had the gear, but it would not stop them gearing their main class, which is what the tank is also doing so I believe thats a fair system not like the current one which allows some players who are lucky to gear up multiple classes and some who are unlucky to struggle gearing their main also again they could gear their alt classes via the totems that drop.

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You are still proposing the old system is better—if the old system was so much better, why did the developers change it? And, again, you’re trying to assert this declaration that players gearing their mains are more important than players gearing their alts. You don’t have the right to really say that. I’m sure you don’t want to hear that, but it’s the truth.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

The system I am suggesting would be fair, it just means people would have to wait before gearing their alt classes thats not very much to ask for people to wait like possibly 2 weeks before gearing an alt class while people gear their main class, Or gear their alt classes by using the weekly books,

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Why should players who have been consistently clearing the content for 9~10 weeks be force to wait for players that aren’t? A lot of the players that are currently gearing alts have had the tier cleared likely since Week 2 or 3 at the latest. Why should they yield to players that haven’t cleared the tier yet? Regardless of the circumstances behind why some haven’t cleared the tier, no one has the right to tell others to yield on gear for them. You are allowed to ask, but no one has to do as you ask.

And you do realize that the books are another example of a two-way street? Players can just as well tell you to gear your main using your weekly books as much as you can tell them to gear their alts this way.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

And yes I believe someone who is gearing their MAIN class lets say a HELAER has a greater need and should get a HEALER item before someone gearing their like what 3rd alt class, and suddenly fancies gearing their healing class that they use once a year. Yes I believe hat is a greater need.

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I’m sorry, but you don’t really have the right to tell anyone that gearing yourself is more important than them gearing themselves. Alt classes or no. You can’t be the arbiter of this.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

There has always been a book system, this could be used by people who have been lucky enough to gear their main class while others gear their main class.

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The books came with Alexander. They weren’t present at all during any of the Coils.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Correct me if I am wrong but Alexander Savage dropped certain gear which could be NEEDED for example FENDING - HEALING - so on and the classes could NEED these so basically that meant that if they dropped and someone who played a class that needed it rolled need it went to them, if they didnt NEED it, it went to the person who rolled the highest GREED

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Coil, Alexander, and the Omegascape raids dropped two random pieces of gear from each floor—which pieces dropped were determined by loot tables for each fight, but they were always random pieces. I’ve already explained the old system countless times at this point—these random drops may have been nice for the reduced competition, but they also came with the downside of dropping pieces that were completely useless (e.g., Casting pieces in comps that didn’t have casters; Aiming gloves that weren’t even BiS for any of the jobs).

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

This was better than the system we have now, also with the suggestion you made reading the class make up I think this could be an ideal system. However you are right people will have issues gearing their alt classes, they may or may not get loot drops depending on party make up for their alt classes, but then they could use the tokens (books / totems whatever) to gear their alt classes they dont have to roll on items for their what like 3rd 4th or 5th alt class.

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The old system was not better because of the useless gear drops. I’ve already brought up how my Alphascape static took 9 weeks to see a single Slaying accessory. Every other week in o10s, the Aiming gloves with drop, and these gloves were not BiS for BRD or MCH (they were actually hot garbage). I had a friend who raided during Creator, and enough tank coats dropped from a12s that their entire static had a coat—meanwhile, the coats they actually needed weren’t dropping at all.

I’ve already discussed the issues with the system I proposed—you cannot implement a system that renders loot drops useless halfway into a tier when most players running Savage (hardcore, midcore, and softcore) have their mains geared.

People seeking to gear their mains can also use their books. Books aren’t a token limited to alt jobs only.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

gear alt classes with weekly tokens and allow people to gear their main classes first

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Weekly tokens can just as well be used for main classes as well. You don’t have the right to tell players to limit their alt jobs to books only. I’m sorry.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

No a lot of other players who are in statics they have already geared their main class at the end of the day there are a lot of people who PUG things that are still trying to gear their main class and are not able to because they are contending with people who have already geared their main class in a static and their static is now on a break and they are running savage to gear their alt classes

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You cannot say this with any certainty. There are plenty of players that PUG Savage from Day 1 and have already geared their main jobs—so they continue to run to gear their alt jobs. There are players in statics still trying to gear their mains—just like there are players in PUGs still trying to gear theirs.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

you have to consider at the end of the day these people are entitled to gear their main class just like the people who are in statics and at the end of the day why should they have not been able to gear their main class because they lose a roll to someone gearing a 3rd 4th or 5th alt class, while that person gearing the alt class has a - in my own opinion lesser need for the items - there are other ways these people gearing their alt classes like i said the weekly books could gear them why not use these ways and make it fairer for people gearing their main, thats why I think a need / greed system would be better here than the current one.

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I will say this one more time: no one person is more entitled to gear drops than any other person; main class or alt class, it does not matter. You have no right to tell other players that you are more entitled to a piece of gear than they are. Just like they cannot tell you that they deserve it more than you.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I have not once said there should be no competition I have simply said I dislike having to roll against people who are gearing their possibly 14 classes when I am gearing my main class, and I did prefer the old system in the way that the 2 Tanks could roll for the fending gear and if 1 of them needed it they would get it before say the summoner who has a level 80 tank but doesn't like being a tank and doesn't tank but has it unlocked. I do not see the issue with what I have just said, personally I think the summoner would be greedy to roll and is then just rolling for the sake of rolling, like the bard I had previously spoke about he had all BiS, the other classes he has levelled at 80 use the same gear and the same combination, he could use all the gear he already has for the classes he has levelled so why did he roll for the gear, I mean it is of 0 use to him. . . he will probably throw it away. . . its of no use to him. . . unless he plans on levelling 1 of his level 10 classes by which time the item will have been replaced by a higher ilvl item.

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With the case of the bard and summoner—you cannot determine how they will use their coffers, nor if they will never use the coffers that they rolled on. Even if the BRD didn’t need the belt or the head piece for their main, they can still use it on an alt that they have leveled.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

So yes you did say I wanted the perfect system - I dont I just want one that allows people to gear their main first before others move on to gearing their army of alt classes, I just want a system that I if a tanking item drops I can NEED it if I need it and if I do not I will pass on it so that whoever wants this -or if the other tank needs it they can get it. Thats not unreasonable. I think people who NEED gear should get it before people who GREED gear.

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There is a difference between saying “if a perfect system is what you’re after” and saying “you’re asking for a perfect system”.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I think its in my third or fourth post and I did state I checked it because I wasn't 100% certain and yes after double checking the bard did also have the BiS headgear, he infact had the BiS for all the slots, he had 0 need to roll, also his other classes use the same gear. . . unless hes going to equip it to 1 of his level 10 classes, it was a wasted roll.

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I’m not going to discuss this BRD anymore—but are you saying you actually looked him up and say that he had 10 level 1 classes? Regardless, you can’t tell him he didn’t “need” the gear. If he had 5 other level 80 classes, how can you say he didn’t “need” the piece for one of them? You can’t. And you don’t have a right to, in all honesty.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Well I have said enough times I personally think people who are gearing their main should take priority over people gearing alt classes who have already Geared their main class, and that there should be a need and greed system, it would work in this case, and personally the other system with the suggestion both you and the other person suggested would make a better system still. You say people would have issues gearing their alt classes now as a result of this - how many classes have you managed to gear to date?

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And I have said over and over again that you cannot decide who is more important and who is less important when it comes to gear. That’s just not something you have the authority to determine.

As for how many class I’ve fully geared? This is irrelevant to the conversation but if you really want to know: two—DNC and BRD. And you know why they’re fully geared? Because DNC and BRD share BiS gearsets. I’ve been clearing E1S and E3S since Week 1, E4S since Week 2. And I only have 2 jobs fully geared. BRD reached fully geared last week when I bought the bow with my E4S books.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

when is enough enough basically

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It’s not up to you or me to define when enough is enough with regards to gearing.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I say people who are generally gearing alt classes are in Statics which is a true statement, and yes the system you and the other person suggested would not 100% work here for gearing alts, HOWEVER there are other methods in which to gear an alt class like the books, people gearing alt classes dont necessarily have to take priority on loot rolls, to gear their alt classes. they could just be satisfied with having geared their main class and gearing 1 or 2 alt classes at a slower rate for a time while others gear their mains with the need and greed system. Not the perfect solution's but a better one than we have now which favours statics.

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It’s not a true statement—because there are players gearing alts that aren’t in statics. If your statement can be disproven, it’s not a true statement.

I’ve already discussed the downsides of this system. And that books are not relegated purely to “alt jobs only”. I won’t repeat that anymore.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Correct you can not force them to be decent and pass the item to the person who needs it, however there is a system which dose distribute loot to players who roll need and who do need things, this and it is already in use in dungeons

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If you are meaning the guaranteed drop at the end of each Leveling Dungeon, they will never implement this for Savage.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

- Primal EX's - if I roll need on a tanking item I get it, if I dont get a healing item dont mind because I dont need it, the healer should get it.

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Again, this was the old Savage loot system. There is nothing special about the EX loot system—it functions just like the Savage loot system functioned back in ARR, HW, and SB.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Personally this system is far more flawed than others currently in use and that have been in use and is allowing people to gear whatever number alt class thay are currently on over someone who is gearing their main class. This is not a working system this is a system that as others have said favours statics. I just think this system is not working because people are not happy to pass items when they have their main classes geared, and are gearing their alts in opposed to someone who hasnt got their main class geared. I personally would be happy to gear my main class and gear an alt class using the books, I am in no rush to gear my classes, but I do think its unfair someone who has 3 alt classes geared is still able to gear yet more, and get more loot drops than me. This system is not working.

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So, because of how people are, you are going to argue that this system doesn’t work? It seems to work in JP, where players in PUGs will only roll on one item and not multiple items. But NA/EU refusing to use a system a certain way doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s a defunct system.

No offense, but if you are in no rush to gear your classes, why all this hubbub about changing the system?

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I have not said that once at all, I have simply stated facts. I have not told people you must you need to, not said that at all. I did say it is easier to gear alt classes in a static and it is, and I have also said people who are gearing their alts are mostly members of statics again this is true.

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Gonna show your data proving that this is true? Because, as of right now, it’s pure speculation on your part.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Im sorry but I disagree - gearing a main class is needing the gear - Gearing an alt class is Greeding the gear you have already geared your main allow others to gear their mains please first - thats fair and decent and it would also encourage more people to take part in savage content in my opinion knowing that while not guarentted a drop they do have a higher chance of getting something than what they do now.

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I disagree. I think that neither you nor me can dictate who takes priority when it comes to gear in PUGs. Statics are different—because static members agree to loot distribution when they discuss the tier. But PUGs rarely have these discussions, so you cannot decide who is more important and who is less important.

And I doubt that guaranteeing gear will encourage more people to run Savage content. This playerbase is largely casual in nature—casuals that have no interest in raiding will not participate in the content, regardless of the carrots dangled, if they don’t want to.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Also it only allows people to Gear up faster if they are lucky, some people are gearing their 3rd / 4th / 5th alt class Im gearing my main thats not me gearing up at the same speed as them despite probably having the same amount of clears. That is a flawed system sorry but it is especially when there are other ways to gear up an alt class, like using the books for example. I mean there like with that one bard, he had all BiS gear, he did not need anything at all, his classes used the same gear, he wouldn't have he couldn't have benefited from the items he had.

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I would wager that those gearing up their alt jobs already probably have more clears than you. They’ve certainly cleared E3S and E4S already—otherwise, their main wouldn’t be fully geared, as weapons are necessary for that—where as you have not. Even if they had less clears than you, that doesn’t give you the right to say “I deserve this more than you”. I’m sorry, but it doesn’t.

Unless the BRD also raided on DNC and MCH, that’s the only way his drops would benefit each of those classes. If they wanted to play healers, obviously the gear they have for their physical ranged will not work for healers. I don’t think anyone is really entitled to talk about what the BRD wanted or what they planned to do aside from themselves. At the end of the day, all of this “he won’t be using the gear”/“he doesn’t need the gear”/“he has zero use for this gear” is speculation on your part.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Personally I think you were snippy with me first, but of course we will both disagree on this, I assumed you were perfectly fine with taking gear away from other people, because you sounded as if you were and you still kind of do you see no issue with someone being able to gear their 3rd 4th or 5th alt while others struggle to gear their mains

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What I’m okay with and not okay is irrelevant to the conversation—so you really shouldn’t have tried to bring it into this. Ultimately, I believe that no one has the right to tell any other person what they can or cannot roll on in a PUG setting, if they are more important than this other person, that they deserve priority on gear as opposed to this other person, etc.. That’s not something that anyone has the right to do—and it is entirely separate from any opinions I may have on gearing mains versus gearing alts.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I see this as an issue to be honest, people do have a right to gear their alts, but I believe it should be done AFTER people gear their mains, I have cleared Eden E1S every week since release, excpet the first which I missed due to ill health, I have had to buy the majority of my 470 gear with books and other people are gearing ALT classes - thats a flawed system.

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I’m in a static and had to buy one of my Savage accessories despite clearing since Week 1 (3/5 of my pieces where tome). In Alphascape, I had to buy my Aiming body because it never dropped after 8 weeks of clearing Final Omega. That’s just the luck of the drop. Likewise, it took me until last week to actually win the Savage mount from this tier because I didn’t roll higher than a 30; and I was the last DPS in my static to get the weapon coffer because I kept rolling the lowest. That’s just the luck of the roll. However, having bad luck doesn’t mean that the system is flawed. As I said above, clearly it works if people are already on alt jobs, as you have claimed.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

This system as one person previously said is far to good on staics and I understand why you like it so much, and would be loath to lose it, but everyone is entitled to try savage and everyone is entitled to gear their classes and Main class should have priority they do in Primal EX's they do in dungeons why not in Eden Savage as well

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Whether or not I’m in a static is frankly irrelevant here. I’m not sure why you keep bringing it up. I would hate to lose this system purely because it means returning to a system where people end up with useless drops versus one where people are always guaranteed something that will be useful—whether it’s for their main class or an alt class.

Yes, everyone is entitled to run Savage, and everyone is entitled to gear. That means that you cannot force players to yield to your vision of “main jobs deserve priority—don’t roll for your alt classes”. That’s what it means when you say “everyone is entitled to gear”.

The primal accessories are a new thing—introduced in Stormblood with Lakshmi EX. They are only present in one of the first EX primals in an entire expansion. All other primals are a single weapon drop: from a loot table of 17 different possibilities. The accessories in an of themselves are not perfect: I had to buy nearly all of my Innocence accessories because, in the 20 runs my static did, one Aiming accessory dropped. So I had to buy the other three. That’s the luck of the drop. This system really isn’t that special.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

the system needs to be more considerate of people who pug things. People can gear their alts different ways while others gear their mains once everyone has their main geared have at it on the alts thats better than what we have now.

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People can also gear their mains in different ways. Most BiS sets take a combination of Tomestone and Savage. You are able to get Tomestone gear while still trying to win Savage gear—and when you get the correct number of pages, you can buy those Savage pieces. It’s the same system for both PUGs and statics. It’s the same system for every player pugging. Changing it because you personally have bad luck is not a reason to change it.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

It is a problem because it means the system is flawed. . . a system is better when it works for everyone . . . .this system clearly dose not. I am not trying to punish people, I am simply saying do people who are gearing their 3rd 4th or 5th alt class that they do not bother with have as much of a need as someone gearing their main class - I dont think they do - So why are they making people who gear their main class gear up slower when they have already geared up their own main classes

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At the end of the day, you and I don’t know what people do with the gear they win. You cannot say that players do not use the gear for their 3rd, 4th, or 5th alt classes simply because you do not know if they will not put it to use. I may not raid Savage on healers that often, but I do like to do Extremes on them. And I even took AST into UCoB last expansion—meaning I needed BiS for it.

No one is “making” anyone gear up slower or faster than anyone else. You are gearing up slower because you’ve had poor luck. That happens to more than I think you know—under both this system and the old one.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

the system i am suggesting would just stop this - also there are weekly books people could use to gear alt classes. Its not the bad rolls its the system in my opinion an ideal solution should be TANKING items dropping HEALING items dropping and the DPS items dropping and those who use these items be able to NEED on them if they need them and passing on them if they do not and also incorporating the suggestion you suggested so that there are no wasted drops- it is a system that we have used before and in some aspects still do, and in my own opinion it works better than the current one, at least in the aspect of people gearing their main classes before someone decides to gear their healing class they levelled but don't play on because they hate healing

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You are more than welcome to use books for your main as well—a lot of raiders have to do that. I’ve had to use books every tier I’ve raided for my main.

You are advocating to go back to the old system. I’ve said this before, but the old system wasn’t perfect. Your current suggestion of 4 drops per floor (1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 DPS drops) means players—especially tanks and healers—would gear up far faster than the developers want them to. The developers WANT RNG present in these loot drops. They WANT players to keep running the content—tiers are supposed to last six months. Guaranteeing that tanks clearing Week 1 are fully decked out in gear they need by Week 4 defeats this purpose.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Honestly we are not going to see eye to eye on this so is there any real point in continuing to argue about this, I have given my opinion and a possible solution which would in my opinion be better to people who PUG. You say no this wouldn't work because people cant gear their alts as quickly - I say yes it would work it just means gearing your alt class would have to wait until others have geared their mains before you can roll on that loot piece. It seems you are okay with people gearing their alts before others manage to gear their main, I personally am not. I think people gearing main classes should be able to NEED items they need and get the items they NEED instead of the summoner who never plays that class. Enjoy your breakfast ^^

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What I’m okay with and not okay with is irrelevant—I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. I am merely looking at these systems from all sides; and telling you that NO ONE—meaning you, me, Jimmy, that guy over there, whoever—can tell players “I deserve this gear more than you do” or “I’m gearing my main and it’s more important than your alt class”.

The items present are generalized coffers that can be used for any class—therefore, anyone can roll NEED on them, and anyone can potentially need the item. A BRD rolling on a head piece coffer when they don’t need it for BRD doesn’t mean they don’t “need” it for another job. Ultimately, this entire discussion is about “wants” under the guise of “needs”. Technically, the only people that “need” full BiS are those planning to tackle the next Ultimate in a month. This entire conversation boils down to what players “want”—you want gear for your main (which is fine), and Bobby wants gear for his alt (which is also fine). None here are more important than the other.

I did enjoy my breakfast, thank you~. It was fabulous. Now I am eating lunch and waiting for my next class to start.


As a tangent on the “that’s elitist” comment about players clearing Savage in i440 gear if they’re good enough: that’s not really an elitist comment to make. It’s a comment about certain players’ skill. Some players are more skilled than others, and it’s not elitist to point that out. It’s just a fact of life.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I said the if your good enough part was elitist - and it is



But they already geared their main some people still struggling to gear their main the people you know are gearing their alts.



It dose not limit anyone's ability to Gear alt classes as there are other ways to gear their alt classes - no one has to go in to savage on a class they do not play - to be able to gear it - what I am suggesting is simply use a system that allows need / greed and allows people to gear their mains before gearing alts. Also no my Idea dose not Favour anyone who starts the tier later my idea just allows everyone to be able to gear their main classes as a priority - Also being inconvenient to static groups the current system is inconvenient to pugs.

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Thats not elitist. Either you do or dont have the capability/ desire to do savage. If you dont you wont clear. And theres nothing wrong with it if you can't. Especially below minimum item level like that poster was saying. Thats just a fact.

You seem to be under the impression that because someone has an alt it means they don't play that class. That's fundamentally untrue. A main is someones preferred or favorite job. I main gunbreaker for most content and for my fc group, but sometimes i want to play black mage and so i'm gearing it, too. I take both into high level content as well as into expert roulette and stuff. I also like healing and sometimes will switch roles with my group's sch for funsies. BLM and SCH aren't not played just because they arent the first things i geared up.

I didnt say "limits ability to gear alts." I specifically said, "limits ability to fulfill multiple roles as needed." because you will miss out on gear you want for an alt if you dont queue on that alt. thus if a party is full on dps but has a slot open for a tank, a tank main wont join because they want the gear for their dps.

also, i pugged for the first 3 weeks. Really nice to lot on three items and win two of them. A static will hand out loot as needed, usually dps first, so if youre trying to gear quickly, technically it'd be better for you to pug and take your chances.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Your statement was wrong - also if you didnt know Titania weapons can be bought with 10 tokens you dont have to kill it 50 times.Also implement the system that the other person suggested where it reads the party make up and drops loot for the classes in the party.

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Likewise, Savage items can be bought with 4/6/8 books depending on the item. The only difference between Savage tokens and EX tokens are that Savage ones are currently on a weekly lockout.

What ForteNightshade is saying is that you can run the content 50 times and still not see the specific weapon you are after drop from the boss—which is completely true. Titania weapons have a 1 out of 17 chance to drop, which is roughly 0.06%. It’s irrelevant if you can buy the weapon you want after 10 runs: what matters is that there’s a very likely possibility that it doesn’t drop at all. This new Savage system eliminates some of the drop RNG, and the trade-off is increased competition.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Okay math time - 2 tanks 1 chest = 50/50 2 healers 1 chest = 50 / 50 4 DPS 2 chest = 50/ 50 if we are using the system the other person said about it would be a 50/50 chance and limit people to 1 item per floor.

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This is incorrect for DPS. DPS would be a 1 in 5 (20%) chance to drop the applicable coffer to drop on all floors save for the first one, which would be a 1 in 4 (25%) chance.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I'm just suggesting working on the loot system not the difficulty

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Which accessibility doesn't apply to outside of meeting the minimum ilvl requirement. You can move the goal post to Narnia, it's still inaccurate.

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The way you phrased it did sound elitist

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It was blunt. There's a difference. Saying someone has to be good to clear with weaker gear is in no way elitist regardless of how I phrase it.

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Your statement was wrong - also if you didnt know Titania weapons can be bought with 10 tokens you dont have to kill it 50 times.Also implement the system that the other person suggested where it reads the party make up and drops loot for the classes in the party.

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No, it wasn't. You can keep telling someone they're wrong. It doesn't mean they are because you say so. I'm also well aware of how loot drops work. The point was no content content guarantees a specific drop outside of Leveling. It doesn't matter that you can buy the Primal weapon. That wasn't the argument. You can also buy Savage gear. If you don't want to use consumables, you're at the mercy of RNG. Even with your algorithm suggestion, it's still RNG whether the weapon drops.

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Okay math time - 2 tanks 1 chest = 50/50 2 healers 1 chest = 50 / 50 4 DPS 2 chest = 50/ 50 if we are using the system the other person said about it would be a 50/50 chance and limit people to 1 item per floor.

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Math time, hmm? Okay...

Tank: Fending
Healer: Healing
DPS: Maiming, Striking, Casting, Aiming

Since only two DPS items can drop, and there are four categories with possible duplicates. It isn't 50%. You have a 1/4 chance per loot drop of it being of the sub-category you're after. Case in point, the Dragoon head and Feet both drop for the DPS slots. Three roles (Second Melee, Caster and Range) received nothing. This is impossible for tanks and healers who have no sub-category within their role itself.

Basically, your math is wrong.

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This would allow more people to participate as it would make it more desirable to more people - also again gear extremely fast people geared their main - their 1st alt - and like their 3rd alt. . . .some still smuggling to gear their main - Im suggesting a system that evens it out.

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No? The only restriction on Savage is being i450. And that is only if you queue via the raid finder. A full pre-made can be any ilvl they fancy, though it's generally expected you're i450. I can take my alt character, who will be full i450 once I finish the MSQ on her, into Savage right away despite having no gear from Savage. Therefore, Savage gear itself can't be a barrier. Does it make things easier? Sure. But that's also why tome gear exists. Not to mention, 5.1 will release i460 gear.

You keep confusing your arguments. Wanting to tweak the system or offer an alternative is fine, even if I and/or others may disagree with your suggestion. But the current system has zero bearing whatsoever on your ability to participate in Savage.

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Why should you be entitled to gear a class you dont play over someone who plays a class and want to gear that class - it comes down to this are you satisfied with gearing 1 main class and allowing others to gear their main class then gearing alts . . .

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You have no idea what I play. Speaking specifically, I frequently bounce between Dragoon and Tanks. Therefore, I want to gear both. Just because one of those is my secondary doesn't change the fact we're both participating in the content. Think about it. I'm saying everyone has a fair shot at all the coffers and item upgrades which drop since everyone contributed to the clear. They can, if they feel so inclined, elect to pass on drops. You think they should feel obligated to pass because you want the gear.

Which sounds more entitled?

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

-.- any need for childish remarks like this honestly

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Stop moving the goal post then. This was now the third time you've changed your prior argument because I proved it wrong.

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No it was elitist

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I mean, you can say the sky is purple. That doesn't make it purple. There is nothing elitist about saying you need to be good enough to clear with below recommended gear. You just took offense to it.

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Your statement was wrong sorry it was.

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Once again, the water isn't red just because you keep saying it is.

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No Implement the system that was spoken about earlier which I am sure you read about - which basically reads a party's make up and then only uses that loot for the classes making the party up - then implement a 1 item per person limitation and my maths is correct I know my maths but let me break it down for you so that you can see where Im coming from k doll ^^

So in a party there are 2 tanks - 2 healers - and 4 DPS so the tanks would have 1 chest which would give them a 50/50 Same for the healers another 50/50 so DPS so 4 DPS if there was 1 chest that would be 25% chance you are correct there however there is 2 chests and there is also a 1 loot per person - so the DPS who has the first item can not get the 2nd - so technically speaking the 1st chance is a 25% chance - the second for the remaining DPS is 33% R however 50% of the DPS will get an item

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You're moving the goal post again. Nowhere did you specify this one roll per person restriction. Ironically, you ignored the example I provided: two Maiming pieces dropped. With the purposed addendum, now the DRG can't roll on both yet no one else wants the second piece. Furthermore, this doesn't account for Striking gear which two melee DPS share and accessories which has multiple overlap. I'll assume your next response will be to abruptly add two Maiming pieces can't drop because like with several arguments now, you keep throwing things on a wall until something sticks.

On top of the above, now you've reintroduced the possible junk drops where people already have the gear that dropped, thus it hits the floor.

In short, your math is still wrong unless they fix the overlap Ninja has with the Physical Range and Dragoon with Monk and Samurai. And even should they do so... that doesn't address the aforementioned duplicate drop potential. If you also want that prevented, you've now effectively guaranteed a whole static can gear up much faster since you're guaranteed never to see duplicate item drops and you've doubled the loot table for every floor except the first.

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I am not confusing my arguments at all - also who said anything about my ability to participate in savage - I said if the loot system were tweaked so that Need / Greed were implemented it would be far more appealing to people due to the fact they could gear their main before someone gears their 3rd or 4th alt - which it in my opinion would

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You literally said "This would allow more people to participate." I didn't interpret that as you directly but the general you because it implies people couldn't participate in Savage without gear... from Savage. See why your arguments are confused? You've contradicted yourself in the same post, doll. ^^

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

no it isn't DPS would have a 1 in 4 chance if it were 1 chest if we were using the system you suggested - by increasing DPS chest to 2 DPS would have a 50% chance - especially if we limited the number of loot DPS could gain - there are 4 DPS 50% of them would have an item

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I’ll use my static comp as an example—PLD/WAR, WHM/SCH, SAM/NIN/DNC/BLM

Tanks: 50% chance of winning their loot provided the drop is BiS
Healers: 50% of winning their loot provided the drop is BiS

It’s important to consider if these drops end up being BiS or not. If the tank gloves, for example, aren’t BiS, that makes this week tank drop from the second floor useless. Likewise, if the healer pants aren’t BiS, they are worthless. So you actually had 0 drops instead of the 2.


Now for the DPS:

First coffer—25% chance for any DPS to get an applicable piece of gear (Slaying, Scouting, Aiming, Casting) in all but the first floor (33% chance in the first floor since Slaying accessories are shared by all melee DPS).
Second coffer—33% chance provided this system has no duplicates to drop one of the 3 remaining pieces (66% chance on the first floor for accessories).

100% chance to win the DPS drops since they’re locked to role (50% chance to win for Slaying accessories with a double melee comp like mine)—provided that the drop is BiS.

It’s very important that you consider if the drop is BiS or not. A non-BiS drop dropping from a floor is the same as basically getting nothing. You may take it for an upgrade, but it’s not the piece that you “need” and it will be replaced. None of this is considering useful loot probability based off of the items that drop in a single floor and whether or not they’re actually BiS for a job, so your statistical chance of getting a BiS piece of gear is far lower than 50%.


It’s not a straight 50% drop rate for individual DPS coffers because there are 5 different kinds of DPS gear (4 for the accessories). Saying that half of the DPS jobs theoretically get a drop =/= 50% chance; individual chances are 25% for the left side, 33% for the accessories. And this is only the case if the drops were guaranteed to be useful/be BiS—but not all Savage drops are BiS.

You’re confusing the drop chance of applicable gear with “half the DPS get drops”. They are not the same thing.


I’ll consider replying to the wall-of-text post later, but just going to address this:

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Took you a long time

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I apologize if I am not replying fast enough for you. I had to shower and get ready to head to school for class. So, my apologies that I had more important things to do.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

LOL i havent moved the goal post and your remarks are childish- and you have not proven me wrong but feel free to think you have I mean if that is what you need - my argument is still the EXACT same - my argument is this - This system is amazing for people who are in statics - but very unfriendly to people who Pug - it also allowes people to gear multiple classes while some struggle to gear their main class - I think this needs to be evened out by implementing a need / greed system - That is my argument that has REMAINED the exact same





You were being elitist





I have said a number of times it was suggested by one of the other people - and I said it was a good idea and that I agreed with it - like I agreed with the need / greed - and implementing a system that read the partys make up - did you not read their comments.






My maths is not wrong you just haven't paid any attention to what people have suggested be implemented there has already a solution to this been thought up . . .again if you I must explain to you the following 2 tanks 1 chest = 50% 2 healers - 1 chest = 50% 4 DPS 2 chests = 50% (DPS chance are 25% and 33R%) Also just an FYI most statics were geared up very quickly Im generally talking about a system that is more friendly to pugs, and this I believe is it.




I haven't contradicted myself - also can I just explain when I have said PEOPLE I have meant PEOPLE (i generally say people for more than 1 person) if I am talking to 1 person I say You, I assumed everyone did the same. Also If people do not need savage gear to do savage please explain why you insist people roll for savage gear for their alts and allow it to take priority over someone who is rolling for their main, my opinion is a need and greed system would be better - and it would be. And I also believe I said people would find it more appealing if the loot system was more structured - I believe they would. Would you be more likely to enter something knowing its just you and a few others - or would you go in to something happy if it was you and like hundreds of others competing for stuff - Personally I would prefer the first thats why I suggested structuring the loot (well someone else suggested how) and implementing a need greed and 1 item per person sort of thing, people will be more attracted to things when they have higher chances of getting items and that's just a general fact of life

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Someone rolling for their alt isnt taking priority over you. They need it for a class, you need it for a class. You both roll need, so you have equal priority. You just have to out roll them. Honestly this whole thread has primarily been you arguing to not have to compete with others for rolls. If you want that then honestly the best thing for you to do would be to make a lootmaster party.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

LOL i havent moved the goal post and your remarks are childish- and you have not proven me wrong but feel free to think you have I mean if that is what you need - my argument is still the EXACT same - my argument is this - This system is amazing for people who are in statics - but very unfriendly to people who Pug - it also allowes people to gear multiple classes while some struggle to gear their main class - I think this needs to be evened out by implementing a need / greed system - That is my argument that has REMAINED the exact same

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And three different people now in the last two pages have all pointed out how your argument is wrong yet you making different addendum to it. Earlier you cited the Primal weapons and accessories, which use the old system. You never once suggested that be changed to a 1/1/2 loot drop. You simply cited the Primals and said nothing else otherwise. Furthermore, pointing out how you keep changing your arguments is not childish. Don't let the snark attached? Stop moving the goal post or...

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You were being elitist

No the water is not red - I never said it was - I said your statement was wrong and it was sorry if that upset you

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Insisting you're right because you say so. Please explain how saying you have to be good enough to clear Savage while undergeared is in any way elitist? Are you really going to cling to this "it's not what you said but how you said it?!" nonsense? And you want to talk about childish...

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I have said a number of times it was suggested by one of the other people - and I said it was a good idea and that I agreed with it - like I agreed with the need / greed - and implementing a system that read the partys make up - did you not read their comments.

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Great! Either quote them or reiterate the suggestion in your own posts when someone replies because nothing you've stated insinuated half the arguments you're now making. I shouldn't have to go back and comb through every post in the thread. Present the argument yourself/

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My maths is not wrong you just haven't paid any attention to what people have suggested be implemented there has already a solution to this been thought up . . .again if you I must explain to you the following 2 tanks 1 chest = 50% 2 healers - 1 chest = 50% 4 DPS 2 chests = 50% (DPS chance are 25% and 33R%) Also just an FYI most statics were geared up very quickly Im generally talking about a system that is more friendly to pugs, and this I believe is it.

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As stated... again. You're conflating two different things; two DPS drops compared to two useful DPS drops that can never be duplicated. The latter is an important distinction because if two Maiming pieces can drop (Head and Feet), then it isn't 50% by any metric. And yes, statics can clear quickly. Your solution will make that even faster because you're increasing the loot. Tanks and Healers often wait a few weeks before receiving gear since DPS matters more for prog. Your suggestion guarantees they get a coffer each week; possibly with no chance at a duplicate. Four people are getting gear, including weapons, bodies and legs instead of one—two if you happen to get lucky with the random weapon drop. For statics, you'll be done in less a month for everything but accessories.

None of this covers the tome upgrade items. Are we going to divvy those up based on role too? And gearing alts under your revised system forces you to do so on lesser geared jobs since the game won't drop anything unless that job's in the party.

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I haven't contradicted myself - also can I just explain when I have said PEOPLE I have meant PEOPLE (i generally say people for more than 1 person) if I am talking to 1 person I say You, I assumed everyone did the same. Also If people do not need savage gear to do savage please explain why you insist people roll for savage gear for their alts and allow it to take priority over someone who is rolling for their main, my opinion is a need and greed system would be better - and it would be. And I also believe I said people would find it more appealing if the loot system was more structured - I believe they would. Would you be more likely to enter something knowing its just you and a few others - or would you go in to something happy if it was you and like hundreds of others competing for stuff - Personally I would prefer the first thats why I suggested structuring the loot (well someone else suggested how) and implementing a need greed and 1 item per person sort of thing, people will be more attracted to things when they have higher chances of getting items and that's just a general fact of life

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... I don't know how many ways I can explain to you that wanting something is not the same as needing it. You don't need Savage gear for Savage since, you know, you have to be able to complete Savage to actually get drops from it. You want better gear. They are not the same thing. That person rolling for their alt jobs contributed to the clear just as much as you—possibly more depending on skill. Why should they be entitled to nothing because they happen to be gearing a second job while you'e still on your first? Furthermore, you know what will happen with your purposed system? People won't join PFs on their better geared mains, they'll join on weaker jobs so they can Need potential drops. If I want Ninja or Tank gear, I'll join a party as one of those jobs in i450 instead of my i470 Dragoon since doing so on the latter guarantees I can nothing.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Okay firstly you said about a system earlier being implemented to read the party's make up - this would stop useless drops at least the majority of them - also this would allow people to gear their alts if double drops did happen - No I am not confusing anything and the numbers you just gave I already gave and these numbers are based off of using the things you suggested. Yes it would not 100% eliminate double drops but then that would allow people to gear alt classes (which is what would keep statics happy) but also at the same time allow people to gear their mains as a priority

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I was using a specific comp with drops limited to that comp in my example. It wasn’t taking into accounts drops that players don’t need—hence the values that I gave.

First DPS drop: 25% chance for each of the DPS. In my example, it was SAM/NIN/DNC/BLM—in the loot table I provided, the pieces that could drop were Slaying (SAM), Scouting (NIN), Aiming (DNC), and Casting (BLM). 4 possible piece types, 1 out of 4 chance that any given DPS would get an item—25%.

Second DPS drop: Assuming this system doesn’t allow for duplicates, it’s now a 33% chance for any of the other 3 DPS to get a piece of gear. So, if the first piece was for the BLM, 33% chance for a Slaying (SAM), Scouting (NIN), or Aiming (DNC) piece. 3 possible piece types, 1 out of 3 chance that any of the remaining DPS could get an item—33%. The values do not change.

2 DPS potentially getting a gear drop does not make this 50%. There is a probability that the item that drops for the BLM isn’t BiS, which would make it a worthless drop. There’s a probability that the second item that dropped isn’t BiS for the player it dropped for—let’s say the Scouting boots dropped; they aren’t BiS because they have skill speed on them (NINs hate SkS). Both DPS drops were worthless, so they actually didn’t get anything.

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dont worry I was just wondering if you were alright

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Oh, I’m quite fine. Just tired after a long day.

Not everybody care into BiS that much though, some will be more than happier getting a higher iL non BiS equipment...

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Not everybody care into BiS that much though, some will be more than happier getting a higher iL non BiS equipment...

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And then there are the people that do care about BiS—so my point still stands.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

You do know though that I gave these numbers and figures first on the previous page, all you have done is repeated back to me the numbers and figures and Reasoning I gave before which you do not need to I gave them I am very aware of them but thank you for demonstrating you can copy and repeat - and no again this was my reasoning using the system you mentioned about reading party make up - the first chest would be a 25% chance for a DPS and the second chest would be a 33R% chance for the DPS - now include the 1 loot per person and 50% of the DPS have been geared. which is the original point I made 50% of the tanks geared 50% of Healers geared and 50% of DPS geared. You are correct however in thinking with double drops this would be lowered however people could then move on from gearing their main classes to gearing an alt class. However my point is still correct as is my maths and it is a better system than we have now and they would have a higher chance to get an item and a useful item with this system as it is we have a 1 in 8 chance per item which is a much lower % than the system I have just said.

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The minute that one of those DPS drops isn’t BiS is the minute your “50% of the DPS” value fails. I really cannot word this is any other way.

Your point is 50% chance that the DPS will be geared. That is incorrect if the drops that drop from the boss aren’t useful to them—which was a huge problem with the old system and why the coffers that can be turned into any item for any job are far more useful. Generic “Gloves Coffer” dropping that someone can turn into either main job BiS or alt job BiS is better than a pair of Maiming Gloves dropping that aren’t BiS and that no one wants.

Either way, the developers would never implement a system where 4 pieces of loot drop from each floor. They want people to keep running this content. They don’t want them gearing up within 4 weeks and then peacing out. And it has nothing to do with “they don’t care about people gearing main jobs”—it has everything to do with subscription money.

The math has already been done for the new system—it is mathematically better than the old system that was in place. Failure to acknowledge that doesn’t make it untrue.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

also if 2 out of 4 is not 50% then please explain what it is maybe my maths is wrong but last time I checked 50% is a half and 2 is half of 4 ^^ but please explain your reasoning

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I have. You just aren’t reading.

If the DPS items that drop are useless then no, 50% of the DPS have not been geared.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

"No Implement the system that was spoken about earlier which I am sure you read about - which basically reads a party's make up and then only uses that loot for the classes making the party up - then implement a 1 item per person limitation and my maths is correct I know my maths but let me break it down for you so that you can see where Im coming from k doll ^^

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Nope. Still incorrect as if the items that drop aren’t BiS, then 50% of the DPS haven’t been geared. And how about you not start the condescending names with me, “doll”. That doesn’t help you—it just makes you come off as having an attitude: something you’re quick to harp on others about. .

Not to mention—this prevents players from gearing alts. You can hate that as much as you want, but eventually players turn to gearing alt jobs once their main is geared. I know that completely invalidates your points, but it’s true.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

So in a party there are 2 tanks - 2 healers - and 4 DPS so the tanks would have 1 chest which would give them a 50/50 Same for the healers another 50/50 so DPS so 4 DPS if there was 1 chest that would be 25% chance you are correct there however there is 2 chests and there is also a 1 loot per person - so the DPS who has the first item can not get the 2nd - so technically speaking the 1st chance is a 25% chance - the second for the remaining DPS is 33% R however 50% of the DPS will get an item"

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Half of the tanks won’t be geared if the item that drops isn’t BiS.
Half of the healers won’t be geared if the item that drops isn’t BiS.
Half of the DPS won’t be geared if the items that drop aren’t BiS.

Please read. I know that you don’t want to acknowledge points that invalidate your argument, but you’re going to have to.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Was said by me before any of you even said it and yes my maths is still correct - 50% of tanks 50% of healers ad 50% of DPS geared as i said in the very beginning

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Nope. Still wrong. See above.

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I did explain my reasoning before all you seem to do is keep saying I am saying DPS have a 50% chance but as you can see thats not what I said

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And that is literally what you said. Here, I’ll quote it for you.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

no it isn't DPS would have a 1 in 4 chance if it were 1 chest if we were using the system you suggested - by increasing DPS chest to 2 DPS would have a 50% chance - especially if we limited the number of loot DPS could gain - there are 4 DPS 50% of them would have an item

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And no, 50% of them would not have an item if the item that drops is worthless. Not all Savage pieces are BiS, and players that care about their gear aren’t going to roll on non-BiS pieces.


In the end, this thread is all about what you want—and you’re trying to disguise it as what you need. You don’t “need” any of this gear—you want it. But guess what? Other players want it, too; and your wants do not trump theirs. You are all equals when the loot drops, you all equally want it, so you all get to equally roll for it. We all win some, and we all lose some. So, personally, I think you should just deal with it and move on. As you said, you’re in no rush to actually gear your jobs.

This is my last response to you. I’m done wasting time in this thread.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Anyway guys I dont want to waste time arguing - you have your views - you have also been able to benefit greatly from this current system and geared a number of alt classes as you yourself admit - while others are still gearing their main, you clearly do not think a system that allows sharing things out and allows people to gear their main classes before you gear your alt classes is a better solution because you have already benefited from this system and doing what some would consider selfish.

My view is this the current system is not a friendly system to people who pug - there should be a need / greed system implemented and an algorithm which allows the system to read the party make up thus reducing the wasted drop issue we have had in the past. This would allow people to gear their main classes before alt classes, this system would just mean people who are gearing alt classes who have already geared their main classes would just have to wait a small amount of time which isnt much to ask of them as they have already geared their main class, which I think is a fair thing sorry to the people who have already geared their main and alt classes and disagree with allowing other people to gear their main class before their 3rd or 4th alt class.

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The system is fine. The only reason someone got gear fpr their alt before you got gear for your main is because they ROLLED HIGHER than you and likely STARTED THIS TIER EARLIER than you.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

The system is not fine sorry but it isnt - people should be able to gear their main class before others can gear their 3rd 4th or 5th alt class - also I have been doing E1S since it became available. . .I have managed to get . . . 3 items 1 drop. 2 were gotten with books ill soon be able to get the 3rd item with a book.

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This is your opinion. Not a fact.

This is actually going to be my last post because there’s no point continuing this any further, but I’m going to defend myself a little bit here.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

your attitude doesn't help you at all to be honest and you yourself have an attitude and have previously admitted to being snippy with me, and harp on about like how you harp on about my numbers and maths being wrong and my condescending attitude only because you do not like what I am suggesting because it would mean you could not gear your alt classes as quickly as you have - also no this does not prevent people from gearing their alts it just ensures people gear their mains first - also you seem to think my point becomes invalid it dose not - my point is 100% valid people should be able to gear their mains before alts thats my point

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First of all, you really aren’t in any position to talk about attitude when you’ve been condescending to not just me, but to Mavrias, DrWho2010, and ForteNightshade in this thread. The only reason we respond in kind is because you’re giving us attitude first—the only reason I was ever snippy with you was because you started talking about what I wanted; what I thought. Perhaps you shouldn’t do that since you aren’t me? And because it’s irrelevant what I want and what I’m okay with? Bringing up a bunch of irrelevant fluff if probably a huge reason why your posts and arguments are so inconsistent.

If you don’t like others returning your attitude with attitude of their own, then all I can really say is don’t dish out what you can’t take. I’ve tried as hard as I can to be polite with you, but your tone has been nothing but confrontational with anyone who disagrees with you—and whenever they point out your own incorrect statements and contradictions, it gets worse because I guess you don’t like people pointing out the flaws in your arguments, or just opposing you in general. You say you aren’t here to fight, but that’s what you’re doing. It’s what you’ve been doing the last several pages.

Nice edit on saying you never called me “doll”, by they way; when I literally have it quoted that you did. Drop the condescension and maybe people won’t be condescending right back.


The developers will not implement your desired system of 4 drops with a special algorithm—they will likely stick with the coffer system, and it’s my opinion that Savage is better for it. The only things I would change are book costs for the belt, a trade down system for higher tier books, and dropping 2 weapon coffers in the final floor—because the random weapon drops have been quite useless in my experience: all weapons for jobs not present in the party, or for jobs that already have their weapons. I would even get behind a system where someone can only NEED one coffer—all their other rolls turn into GREED rolls. But I do not support your system because it is flawed.

Mathematically, it’s a fact that this system is better than the old system—this math was done when the system was announced back in the summer.

What I like and dislike is irrelevant. I don’t argue with my feelings. You are trying so hard to invalidate my points—but they are just as valid. It is 100% valid that you do not hold any more importance than someone else, even if you are gearing your main. Everyone in a PUG is equal regardless of what they want the gear for. They can all roll on the loot, and the highest roll wins.


You don’t need to quote me the post that I responded to and rebutted—most people that run Savage do so with a BiS in mind. The minute a piece drops that isn’t BiS, it’s useless. Which throws your “50% of the DPS are now geared” argument straight out the window. Since players don’t like getting useless drops, the developers sought to rectify this; hence, the coffer system. You don’t have to like it—but it’s the system we have, so you’ll have to deal with it if you continue to do this content.

If people simply want higher item level gear, then they can simply get the Tomestone gear. When the Nier raid releases in a few weeks, they’ll be able to get upgrade items for accessories and left side (minus the weapon) every week from it. Easy i470 gear. The fact of the matter is, is that most people run Savage to get a BiS. Gear that’s not BiS isn’t valuable.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

Oh you misunderstand I am in no rush to gear my ALT classes that is correct - my main I would like geared

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That’s not what you said previously in the thread:

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I am in no rush to gear my classes

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There was no specifications of main class versus alt classes.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

you may believe it is because you have geared your main and you have geared alt classes as you have admitted

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Actually, I haven’t. My alt classes are listed as healers in my static (we all have mains and secondaries listed on our loot sheet), and I have a grand total of 3 pieces for them after 10 weeks: head, gloves, and pants. BRD is only geared because it shares gear with DNC, which is the job I raid on (by that, MCH is also geared, albeit with an i430 weapon). How about you stop talking about what other people have or haven’t done? It makes you seem even more presumptuous than your comments about people rolling on gear they won’t use. You don’t know that.

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Originally Posted by FreyaFreespirit

I dont see an issue with you not gearing an alt class for maybe 2 weeks with loot drops and in them 2 weeks other people gearing their main jobs - you may think other people struggling to gear their main class while you gear what number alt class was it again 3, is a waste of time, but you have already geared your main and your alts your view is that of someone who has benefited greatly from the system and dose not want to lose the system they have greatly benefited from, even if it means fairness for others - thats fine call it what you want to hide what it really is.

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I think this thread is a waste of time because you aren’t willing to see past your own narrow viewpoint. You aren’t willing to see the flaws in your arguments; you aren’t willing to have a discussion. You just want what you want, and who cares about what anyone else has to say.

Stop talking about what I’ve geared and haven’t geared. As I already explained above, my secondary jobs are actually healers, which still have quite a few pieces of i440 and normal mode gear still. You keep trying to paint me in a bad light—I’m in a static, my main is geared, BRD is geared because it shares gear with my main (which is literally the only reason it’s geared in the first place), my alts are geared (no, they aren’t, actually)—but it’s just making you look ridiculous.

PUGs are free-for-all environments. Everyone is an equal in a PUG; therefore, everyone can equally roll on the drops. No one is any more or less important—it doesn’t matter if someone still “needs” gear for their main and someone else doesn’t. They both want the gear, so they can both roll on it. If you want to dictate loot rules, set up your own Lootmaster Savage party with the rules clearly outlined. Don’t expect others to adhere to your standards. And, for the record, this has little to do with what I want and am okay with; my opinions on this doesn’t matter.