Why everyone wants do PotD speed run?

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No. My advice is to set up your own group in the Party Finder that mentions you're going after silver chests or advertise it in /shout. There will be other people looking to do the same - I know I did after I got my Kinna weapon.

Speed run PotD is the fastest way to level. Most groups spam floors 51-60. Speed runners will not pick every single silver chest but they will take ones that are close by. With higher floors (61+) you'll find more people going after silver chests.

You can set up cross-world parties in the Party Finder.

It's generally seen as 'more efficient' because the quicker a set of floors is completed the quicker another set can be tackled. For many players the novelty has worn off, they may not need silver chests themselves and they're more interested in the experience at the end of the floor set than any other rewards. This isn't helped by the hidden coffers containing items that are - bar some exceptions - basically vendor trash at this point in time. It's not a great situation but it's easily mitigated by using party finder or shout to form a likeminded party.

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Originally Posted by Grey-Satyr

You can set up cross-world parties in the Party Finder.

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They must be in the same server for PotD :(

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Originally Posted by Yeol

They must be in the same server for PotD :(

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I didn't realize that, sorry :(

Talk to people in the party it works.
If people don't know what you want they cant help it.

I've had more luck not talking at all. The times I mentioned I need aetherpool people actually started arguing how I'm in the wrong floor range and how I'm wasting time. Yet whenever I stayed silent and methodically checked all rooms and picked the chests people run right past, almost no one objected. You could try that until you get enough aetherpool to solo the place. If you solo up to 100 you get a cool title too and get way more practice with your jobs than speed runners.

In general the plan is "If pugs don't do what you want, make your own group". That said, when I need potd funbux from chests, I find that it's best to just talk to your party. They like to speedrun by default(It's like, the fastest levelling possible, really), but if you tell them that you need stuff a lot of folks will acquiesce and help you.

This is always an interesting discussion... Right up there with "Who should be rolling need/greed..."

As long as they aren't just skipping every chest (I know people that do this.) then even just the incidental silver chests you find on the way while speed running will get you a decent rate of upgrades. But it will also get the people looking for exp more exp and the people looking for tomes more tomes.

If people in this game were (generally speaking) more willing to actually talk to one another then ideally you could work it out with every group when you enter what most people in the group want.

Everyone has a tendency to think their own needs supercede those of others. "How dare that rando roll need on that 245 item when they are wearing full 270! I could use it to gear up an alternate job!"

Nearly every facet of PotD is RNG. Checking every room doesn't guarantee you will find more silver chests, but it does guarantee that each instance will take longer. Whereas leaving each floor as soon as you can doesn't mean you won't ever come across silver chests, but it does mean you won't spend as much time in each instance.

You can either view it as "I need to get the most out of each time I enter PotD regardless of how long it takes." Or you can view it as "I need to make the most out of the time I spend in PotD as a whole."

If you are going to spend an hour in PotD, would you rather clear 2 sets of floors and maybe find a few more silver chests or clear 3 sets of floors, maybe find some silver chests and definitely get money and exp/tomestones?

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I've had more luck not talking at all. The times I mentioned I need aetherpool people actually started arguing how I'm in the wrong floor range and how I'm wasting time. Yet whenever I stayed silent and methodically checked all rooms and picked the chests people run right past, almost no one objected. You could try that until you get enough aetherpool to solo the place. If you solo up to 100 you get a cool title too and get way more practice with your jobs than speed runners.

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You see no problem at all that its this way in an mmo?

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Originally Posted by XSamsaraLotusX

You see no problem at all that its this way in an mmo?

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I see plenty of problems. That people would see you get no reward just so they can get theirs a little faster. That the content is designed in a way where players can prevent others from getting a reward. That the content requires aetherpool, which requires the help of other people, which isn't available because the incentive to get chests has become obsolete for most people running the content. That asking politely and trying to form your own group don't actually get you what you need, which makes soloing or inconveniencing others the only way to get what you are there for, in an MMO. That this content is limited to your server so finding like-minded people is harder than just doing it by yourself.

There are ways to fix it, like putting exp tokens in silver chests or putting 3 bonus silver chests in front of every boss so there are benefits to speed running for everyone. However SE won't acknowledge there's a problem until the players do.

I used PotD to help level bard recently. Most of the runs I had were speed runs, people just want in and out. I can't blame them? Either way OP, when I was done I ended up with 98/99 aetherpool ( started at 20/30 or something close to it ). Its not hard to run into silver chests even during speed runs. 51-100 chests pop up like candy compared to 1-50.

Unfortunately, PotD is the fastest means of leveling and most people have obtained any rewards they may have wanted ages ago, you'll see speed runners unwilling to wait. What I usually do if I'm hunting for aetherpool is break off from the group and poke around. Only step into a room enough so you can see whether there are any silvers. In my experiences, even the speed runners will worm their way back for a silver if you find it. Basically, don't stick with the group the entire time. If you pick up any mobs, run 'em back to the group. Although, one or two you could handle yourself.

My suggestion is to kill two birds with one stone. I only run PotD with classes that need to be leveled up. It makes it worth my time to be speed running to level up but also collecting silver chest along the way.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

There are ways to fix it, like putting exp tokens in silver chests or putting 3 bonus silver chests in front of every boss so there are benefits to speed running for everyone. However SE won't acknowledge there's a problem until the players do.

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This is a great idea!! Give more incentive to search for chests!! I love it and I need it.

I ran floor 91+ the other week and we had someone in our party request to at least check the map for silver chests. I had no issues with this, but the other people did. ( They were 99/99 of course ) They laughed and had a good time standing in the teleport as soon as it lit up and I would go help look for chests. They would say "oh look a silver chest...nah" and stuff like that. Well come to find out the person who asked nicely to just at least peek into rooms for silver chests was exacting her revenge the entire time...

...she used every item, mass pulled the last floor and wiped us. She then left without a word. I commend her for living up to the quote "revenge is a dish best served cold."

Moral of the story: Karma does get served...usually cold. Lol

Because PotD has been out forever, so a lot of people, myself included, have been at 99/99 for a while now. We're only there to level.

Having said that, in matched parties you aren't exactly obligated to do whatever any random person wants. So even if I try to subtly herd you towards the cairn the moment its active (and usually before then if it will likely go active on the way), you can go grab every chest in every room and there's not a lot I or most other people can or will do about it, since my only recourse would to vote kick you, which I'm 1) not going to do over a difference in objectives and 2) would need to convince other people to do as well.

I would love SE to take a stance against bare minimum speed running in a friendly way. In all content. By friendly I mean not messing up player's efficiency rate making the game as a whole slower to progress, but making it far more efficient to 100% content.

In other words, the speed run of now (bare minimum) would be less effective than the speed run patch I'd like to see where doing more is more efficient (players will always want to go fast but now they go fast doing it all, but new players will greatly benefit from this mentality of "do it all"). Also taking away the bare minimum encouragement will allow SE to make dungeons more interesting with designs that would normally get ignored because it "was" all about doing the bare minimum. Side rooms, shifting passages, puzzles, mutations, flash objectives, although especially on puzzles about that shifting/not always there aspect, a puzzle you always have to do will kill people's excitement (unless it is a incredibly well hidden reward to the very attentive, like a dev secret to test how long it takes players to figure out).

How to do that could be through a number of options I imagine a few different ones at tandem, but in the most simple terms you just check what players do content for and make sure the reward is higher for doing it all.

I think in order to keep the dungeon rewards balanced but able to morph to each player's need perhaps they make a new token like a Sigil of Achievement and you can use that to buy light (for your relic), exp bonus (if you're leveling), tomes (of your choice, rate depending on if its a new tome or not), etc, in this way SE can make sure to make the effectiveness of what you personally are looking for the most effective to collect all the Sigils. Again the point of this is not to make player's time less effective compared to now, but more effective compared to now IF they do more of the content - like lets say normally you get 1 point of light for a content, now you get .5 for finishing it but another 1 if you collected the 2 sigils available and sometimes there would be more because maybe a random event spawned in a side room.

The point in tandem is though for example in the Satasha area that gets almost always ignored (side area) if they add a boss there that it could drop unique glamour items, as well as the Sigil of Achievement, or in another thread talking about these ancient lanterns that are normally broken but when they're working players cna do a puzzle that leads them to a treasure room basically (D3 Goblin experience lol). So its not /only/ Sigils, but the Sigils would also be reward on top of and on the side of the new content SE can add because people are encouraged to do more dungeon (but, if you're late to the game and your friends want to quest rush you to the end they can still skip all that stuff).

For PotD all the similar thought process, but I'd just make sure that in areas that are really big they feel more rewarding - so if you get a bunch of massive room chains that you're actually excited because you'd get more EXP/tokens (PotD has a few tokens of its own already).

Basically playing the game's content closer to completion > better use of your time than bum rushing the exit blocker over and over. Quality > Quantity. Again doing this would also allow SE to fiddle more with the dungeon's designs than now because now's mentality is TO THE DOOR IGNORE EVERYTHING ELSE, VOTE KICK ANYONE WHO DISAGREES.

I don't think the mentality will die without SE changing how they reward content, and I don't think the mentality is good for interesting content or new players (both new to that content and new to the game as a whole). It makes sense why players have it though, liking your time to be used effectively is entirely logical - and that is why I would like to see the reward go /up/ when you do more and not just be a nerf to speed runs (I mean you can nerf speed runs too, to really squash the mentality but I would like to see people be rewarded compared to now as well).

talk to the group or go with a friend.

My friend has no issues going in there with a friend and they go look for chest. Sometimes people harass her, not helping her at all when she needs it, like getting aggro, as she tries to peak in rooms, so she vote kicks them. Speed runs are no longer speed runs if you are kicked right?

DF is not for speed running, people should not expect finding people who do not need silvers. I personally seen people not pick up chests at all even if they right right next to them. Just speak up and ask. Or do what my friend does, go off on your own and peak as the team goes in a different direction.

Some people MPK and sit there who do not get their way but that is what the kick feature and reporting is for.

There are various degrees of speed runninh potd, from the pick chests along the way and occasional peeks to straight up minimalistic passage activation. On my server, from personal experience, most runs we just take whatever is on the way and explore rooms to find more kills until the passage is open.

Once that is activated, we mostly explore unseens room if they're in the immediate vicinity, mostly with the intent of peeking. If its an easy chest, we go for it.

On the later floors, sometime after 85+, there's less exploring because the mobs are more dangerous and combined with the traps, its just overall better to complete the floor brackets because of the time spent rather than risk a wipe.

Edit: I just wanted to add this from a thread similar to this one

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

This is something I feel people forget.

It needs to be pointed out first that even aside from exploding, the aethergear might not upgrade.

So rather then tunnel focusing on exploring every corner of each map for a silver chest, just pick the ones that are already on the way as you kill monsters to unlock the passage, clear the floor bracket and then re-enter a potd floor bracket again.

Focus on rate gain rather than flat gain.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I would love SE to take a stance against bare minimum speed running in a friendly way. In all content. By friendly I mean not messing up player's efficiency rate making the game as a whole slower to progress, but making it far more efficient to 100% content.

In other words, the speed run of now (bare minimum) would be less effective than the speed run patch I'd like to see where doing more is more efficient (players will always want to go fast but now they go fast doing it all, but new players will greatly benefit from this mentality of "do it all"). Also taking away the bare minimum encouragement will allow SE to make dungeons more interesting with designs that would normally get ignored because it "was" all about doing the bare minimum. Side rooms, shifting passages, puzzles, mutations, flash objectives, although especially on puzzles about that shifting/not always there aspect, a puzzle you always have to do will kill people's excitement (unless it is a incredibly well hidden reward to the very attentive, like a dev secret to test how long it takes players to figure out).

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While I also hate the speed running mindset, I actually disagree with this idea. No matter how much or how little content is optional, there's going to be an accepted way that content is done after it's been around a while. It's just the nature of MMOs. At best, this would just mean everyone does everything, and at worst, it would cause nasty fights between people who just want to be done quickly and people who want the best overall reward for their time. There is a way to ensure everyone does everything... and it's to not have optional dungeon content. Which appears to be what they're already doing. Honestly, I think that's for the best.

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

Well for me PotD is only way to get a decent weapon for my jobs when i only able get ilvl 200 at the best because raids for ilvl 260 weapon are way too hard to me.And because of that i can't even beat Alexander - The Cuff of the Son because i keep dying when it's way too hard for me.

Also i know i can craft better weapons then ilvl 200 weapons but i don't crafting and because of that i only have 1 crafting job at lvl 60 and most my crafting jobs are around lvl 30.




Sadly talking to group don't help at all because they don't answer to me and don't even care about players like me who want collect silver chests when all they want is do speed run.

Also i don't have any friends to play FFXIV and same goes with FC that i'm not in any FC because i don't like be in FC.

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doesn't matter, having one other person queue with helps immensely. Having 2 people being spoken out on finding chests and going together as a pair in case of aggro etc is a huge help. As said depending on their reaction, it is what kick is for, people will learn to be more cooperative, one way or another.

Also if you are looking for strictly weapon progress, there is always pvp. the 235 weapon that is super fast to get can act as a bridge to advancing.

also there is now getting 1000 scripts ( 2 weeks starting from zero, though getting it in 1 week is more likely, while doing 4 A 12 normal runs gives you a 260. After that doing each Va once upgrades it to 270)

So if deep is really unplayble for you your route can be PvP > script ( expert etc.) then when you have enough script, try climb alex again with the 235 weapon from pvp. Also remember VA weekly for a 270 right

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

Well for me PotD is only way to get a decent weapon for my jobs when i only able get ilvl 200 at the best because raids for ilvl 260 weapon are way too hard to me.
And because of that i can't even beat Alexander - The Cuff of the Son because i keep dying when it's way too hard for me.

Also i know i can craft better weapons then ilvl 200 weapons but i don't crafting and because of that i only have 1 crafting job at lvl 60 and most my crafting jobs are around lvl 30.

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PVP also gives 235 weapons, which is adequate for Baelsar's Wall if you're not interested in doing anything more difficult. If you just do the roulette once a day, it takes less time than PotD does if you're there specifically to farm, even under ideal circumstances, though it can't be upgraded to 255 like PotD can. Just a thought.

Like I said, that's why nobody wants to dawdle. However, as I also said, just because people want to speed run doesn't mean you're obliged to comply with their wishes. There are plenty of runs I'm in where one or two people want to full clear, some where I swear to god their goal is to kill every mob even though you start out at level 60 on floors 51+. There's not much to be done about it other than grin and bear it. Similarly, when I've been the dawdler who wanted to check every room for chests and leave no silver behind, not everyone was super excited about it, but nobody was abusive and nobody kicked me for it. I find that if people make their intentions clear at the start of the run (as long as they're polite about it), most groups will be more accommodating than not.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

While I also hate the speed running mindset, I actually disagree with this idea. No matter how much or how little content is optional, there's going to be an accepted way that content is done after it's been around a while. It's just the nature of MMOs. At best, this would just mean everyone does everything, and at worst, it would cause nasty fights between people who just want to be done quickly and people who want the best overall reward for their time. There is a way to ensure everyone does everything... and it's to not have optional dungeon content. Which appears to be what they're already doing. Honestly, I think that's for the best.

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Sure but that way is decided by what is most effective use of time, and it already makes fights. This would only shift the standard away from quantity. I disagree that it would cause any more issue.

Making every piece of content the most linear thing possible as the solution sounds rather boring, in terms of what could be possible.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Sure but that way is decided by what is most effective use of time, and it already makes fights. This would only shift the standard away from quantity. I disagree that it would cause any more issue.

Making every piece of content the most linear thing possible as the solution sounds rather boring, in terms of what could be possible.

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It's boring, but doing otherwise is a waste of dev work. When's the last time you saw someone do the side rooms in Sastasha in the duty finder? Or take the left path (or god forbid, both) in Toto-Rak? Or even go into the side rooms in Tam-Tara or Copperbell? I only sometimes succeed in getting people to let eggs hatch in Aurum Vale, and that actually is a much more efficient use of time. Similarly, no one gets the side loot in Wanderer's Palace, or really any dungeon unless it's literally three seconds out of the way or less (and sometimes not even then).

So what's the point of adding this content? All it does is get ignored by most of the community, and annoy those like us who actually want to explore the dungeons. Personally, I'd rather have no content to miss than be pressured to miss content.

What I do like to see to stop speed running is mechanics that punish it. However, even those tend to be totally ignored, especially once you're overgeared a bit, because people are impatient and don't really pay enough attention to mechanics in general to even notice.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

It's boring, but doing otherwise is a waste of dev work. When's the last time you saw someone do the side rooms in Sastasha in the duty finder? Or take the left path (or god forbid, both) in Toto-Rak? Or even go into the side rooms in Tam-Tara or Copperbell? I only sometimes succeed in getting people to let eggs hatch in Aurum Vale, and that actually is a much more efficient use of time. Similarly, no one gets the side loot in Wanderer's Palace, or really any dungeon unless it's literally three seconds out of the way or less (and sometimes not even then).

So what's the point of adding this content? All it does is get ignored by most of the community, and annoy those like us who actually want to explore the dungeons. Personally, I'd rather have no content to miss than be pressured to miss content.

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Yea, and I tried to cover that (you're right that reward is very important). This is why I said you make it more efficient use of their time to do this side content, but also make it shift with that advantage. So the side room in Satasha could be a treasure room, a trap room, a mini boss (but again making sure efficiency = doing more content). Also the other point was simple (they have shown they can switch out entities on a map based on circumstances) changes that don't take much effort (well maybe a mini boss might), each one is telling players to explore but at the same time the truth is it is "optional" even though people will play it like its more mandatory. (Although that part also covered just making a dungeon varied by even making linear routes change sometimes, just so people go "What.. what happened tot he bridge we normally use?. . . I guess we'll go into this cave instead").

It plays on people's minds that its optional but not, while also allowing better variations - this is what happens with the traveling conversations (teleportating/mounts, even boss strategies). People do what is most efficient even if its not enjoyable, if you can make efficiency playing the content /more/ then you can do more things in that content that normally players would ignore entirely.

If you leave it as is, people will ignore all things to finish it faster - which is currently quantity quantity. You have less design freedom with leaving it alone, and you /can/ make things encouraged to complete more content per run vs how we have now.

Evaluating a content by the reward over time, if there are areas that are optional but make that reward over time better (or even much better) compared to bare minimum runs then people /will/ shift to doing that side content even though it is still optional. This allows you to actually design optional content again, rather than the always linear hallways we have now.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Sure but that way is decided by what is most effective use of time, and it already makes fights. This would only shift the standard away from quantity. I disagree that it would cause any more issue.

Making every piece of content the most linear thing possible as the solution sounds rather boring, in terms of what could be possible.

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It doesn't matter how well the content is designed if the goal for said content is to be run repeatedly. As long as grinding dungeons for tomes for gear is the chore it is then people will find and opt for the fastest way to get tomes with minimal effort.

The ultimate goal for four man dungeons, unfortunately, is currency to be spent on endgame tier items. Because of this the content is quite literally a job. It is something we spend our time on to earn money.

Creating actually interesting content that people want to experience would require a dynamic shift to how gear and dungeons themselves work. I'm not saying that is a bad thing by any measure, but I doubt the dev team will be doing this any time soon.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

It doesn't matter how well the content is designed if the goal for said content is to be run repeatedly. As long as grinding dungeons for tomes for gear is the chore it is then people will find and opt for the fastest way to get tomes with minimal effort.

The ultimate goal for four man dungeons, unfortunately, is currency to be spent on endgame tier items. Because of this the content is quite literally a job. It is something we spend our time on to earn money.

Creating actually interesting content that people want to experience would require a dynamic shift to how gear and dungeons themselves work. I'm not saying that is a bad thing by any measure, but I doubt the dev team will be doing this any time soon.

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Which is why I was suggesting we make the most efficient activity "doing it all". I covered that in the other post (and also talked that all needs should be considered, including light farming). People will /always/ go for efficiency, that is unavoidable, but you can change the bare minimum level.

I agree in the current standard designing interesting things, especially "options", would be ignored - because of how content is rewarded. But they could change it so that bringing the dungeon to full completion is the most rewarding thing, then they open up making more interesting content as something they can do that wouldn't be a waste of their time.

I used to say, 51-60 is a speed run. Everything else is silver farm. I'm not so sure now. An item level 255 weapon is paltry compared to the other options, some of which aren't much harder to get now.

So here's my advice:

If you want to speed run, use Party Finder.
If you don't want to speed run, use Party Finder.
If you let the queue pick your party, you don't get what you want.

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

I never played PvP and i never will because i don't like PvP.

Scripts? You mean scripts i can get by doing gathering and crafting collectibles?

Also like i already said i CAN'T climb further in Alexander because i'm stuck on Alexander - The Cuff of the Son raid when it's way too hard for me, even i have ilvl255 kinna weapon for my main (i able get it when PotD got added where everyone actually wanted collect silver chests) and my main ilvl at this moment is 263.

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O_o
https://gyazo.com/b833e6a77c179b593cf5b88a093df698

You do not know what scripts are? the green tokens?

A6? how are you stuck on a6? anything before a9 is faceroll (yeah i know all normal is faceroll but a6???), just make a pf and shout for clearing those (what I did, being an alt it was hard finding people, lol but some people like the first time bonus)

If you have a 255 weapon why are you talking about you are stuck on a 200 weapon for O_o, in case this is for a second job, then you should be able pvp for it easily for a 235. If you can't talk to people to do chests in deep, just play pvp for a bit for a 235. It really does not matter if you like it or not? O_o it does not take many matches. If you only do the daily and get 3rd place each time, it is 3 days (1500 each) If you do the dailies and win twice, meaning just 2 front lines, you get the 235 weapon. You can do it in a day doing lets see... doing 6 runs if all are 3rd place. If you first place 3 of them ( one being daily) 2000+1000+1000=4000 = weapon. so your looking at 6 matches max for the weapon, why does it matter if you do not like doing it if it takes so few.

If you cant talk to people, cant buy a 250, can't make shout/pf to clear a6+ or make relic? (keep in mind i am an alt and I am going to have one in the next 2 weeks and I got it off pure dailies, no large grinds, the last update made sands a joke. The only grind I have to end up doing is lights. For the 74 umbrites, pure dailies of the past, same with unideds and everything else.) then I gotta say, no one here can help you this point. Also a6 is 200 avg entry, you extremely outgear it then you got echo on top of that, its complete faceroll. So my SCH has the 270 shire, while my SMN will have the 275 relic soon. I am not even sure what to do with scripts anymore =/

You can't just have a game completely hand you gear cuz you do not try at all?

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Which is why I said you make the most efficient activity "doing it all". I covered that in the other post (and also talked that all needs should be considered, including light farming). People will /always/ go for efficiency, that is unavoidable, but you can change the bare minimum level.

I agree in the current standard designing interesting things, especially "options", would be ignored - because of how content is rewarded. But they could change it so that bringing the dungeon to full completion is the most rewarding thing, then they open up making more interesting content as something they can do that wouldn't be a waste of their time.

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Right, But what I am saying is this Dev Team won't do that.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Right, But what I am saying is this Dev Team won't do that.

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Fair enough lol. I was hoping they will do neat things like that in the new Deep Dungeon though, they have talked about mixing up the objectives for that content - may be a start of them thinking about stuff like that haha.

To me the Satasha example just says they didn't make it worth while, and as a game people look for rewards - some go in that room solely for the achievement but its not a big enough reward for it to really matter.. I've seen someone kicked for trying cause everyone else wanted to speed through. Linear dungeons solves this sort of issue definitely, but personally love seeing content have options (even if I know I'm going to take it already) and also like to see variation (like puzzles will normally be disliked after their charm wears off the first time, so that being a "sometimes" thing would be better).

As you said, all that matters is the reward. If the reward is the finish and that is it.. then, doesn't matter if they add cool stuff as you said - it will be ignored if it doesn't have to do with the finish. (Which is why I focused on changing how the reward worked).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Yea... and I covered all of that already. This is why I said you make it more efficient use of their time to do this side content, but also make it shift with that advantage. So the side room in Satasha could be a treasure room, a trap room, a mini boss (but again making sure efficiency = doing more content). Also the other point was simple (they have shown they can switch out entities on a map based on circumstances) changes that don't take much effort (well maybe a mini boss might), each one is telling players to explore but at the same time the truth is it is "optional" even though people will play it like its more mandatory. (Although that part also covered just making a dungeon varied by even making linear routes change sometimes, just so people go "What.. what happened tot he bridge we normally use?. . . I guess we'll go into this cave instead").

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So, the side rooms in Sastasha are treasure rooms, that doesn't make anyone do them. And again, letting seedlings hatch in Aurum Vale is a huge benefit that costs very little time (literally several seconds over the entire dungeon if you do it right), and people often still don't do it, even if they're not level-capped. That directly disproves your entire premise.

For that matter, I keep seeing "speed run" strategies in Castrum that actually make the dungeon take longer. Here's a protip: Cid doesn't start moving toward the rear cannons until you take out the guys just past the front cannons. If you bring those guys to the back cannons, the fighting takes less time, but you have to wait longer for Cid, causing the overall completion time to be longer. Yet people still do it constantly. Because people are really not good at nuance or paying attention. Nothing I've ever seen in any MMO makes me think people are going to put any thought into a dungeon after the first few runs of it.

However, none of that even matters, because in a vertical progression MMO like FFXIV, you simply can't provide an evergreen incentive. Treasure? Will be obsolete by the next patch. Experience? Irrelevant for people running roulette at max level. Gil? If that worked as an incentive, tanks wouldn't be the only class that's ever offered preferred status in roulettes. Extra tomestones? Only worth the effort when the current relic weapon step is a tomestone grind. What, specifically, do you propose to offer that is actually going to make optional content permanently worth doing?

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Originally Posted by Talraen

So, the side rooms in Sastasha are treasure rooms, that doesn't make anyone do them. And again, letting seedlings hatch in Aurum Vale is a huge benefit that costs very little time (literally several seconds over the entire dungeon if you do it right), and people often still don't do it, even if they're not level-capped. That directly disproves your entire premise.
However, none of that even matters, because in a vertical progression MMO like FFXIV, you simply can't provide an evergreen incentive. Treasure? Will be obsolete by the next patch. Experience? Irrelevant for people running roulette at max level. Gil? If that worked as an incentive, tanks wouldn't be the only class that's ever offered preferred status in roulettes. Extra tomestones? Only worth the effort when the current relic weapon step is a tomestone grind. What, specifically, do you propose to offer that is actually going to make optional content permanently worth doing?

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Most groups I've been in have let the seeds pop, so I'm not sure what you have but it at least in my experience not disprove anything - also unfortunately sometimes not everyone is there for EXP. The one time I had someone refuse to let them pop was because they were capped, and therefore their efficiency was directly hampered by waiting.

As for the second example efficiency is a value of time and averages, if people make the content easier to handle its to increase their efficiency (rather than having to deal with mistakes or discuss anything). I don't find it shocking nor do I mind they've done it, since people like "easy and fast". Speed running (the idea of maximum efficiency) will never die or go anywhere at least until we get computers to play the games for us lol. I'm strictly talking about bare minimum speed running as becoming the most inefficient use of your time (since I feel like this hurts design, and players) and 100% completion as the most efficient (but also suggesting variations and things to mix up that 100% idea, like a "mini" infusion of deep dungeons into regular dungeons - bit like Ferth just added below).

The Satasha treasure room as is not reward enough (yet) but I feel the design comes from a good heart (just needs improved); I've discussed the reward needs to be in context of the people in it. If I'm maxed I don't want some BS exp or 10 gil item (most chests early on are pretty bad lol). I addressed all of this already.

The reward must relate to the player, this is of course natural and you may have skimmed that part of my post (or I edited it while you were making a comment lol). In a simple term I addressed the side objectives via a token that could be transformed into a value you seek, like light, tomes, exp, gil, so that no matter your situation if you joined the content for something you're probably going to get it and maximum efficiency would involve taking maximum advantage of the dungeon. In fact things like lights could be based on the side content entirely, so finishing the dungeon only ensures you obtain your side rewards (this means high level players going back will always make sure new players get the full experience). For glamour, doing the side content would be the drop - so its already baked into just doing it. Of course the values of the reward received need to be considered based on the circumstance (like if you were in a roulette that put you in a low level content) or if you just queued straight up for Satasha unsynced (with some proper UI and simple color/tiers you could display that information well enough for an average understanding of whats what).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Fair enough lol. I was hoping they will do neat things like that in the new Deep Dungeon though, they have talked about mixing up the objectives for that content - may be a start of them thinking about stuff like that haha.

To me the Satasha example just says they didn't make it worth while, and as a game people look for rewards - some go in that room solely for the achievement but its not a big enough reward for it to really matter.. I've seen someone kicked for trying cause everyone else wanted to speed through. Linear dungeons solves this sort of issue definitely, but personally love seeing content have options (even if I know I'm going to take it already) and also like to see variation (like puzzles will normally be disliked after their charm wears off the first time, so that being a "sometimes" thing would be better).

As you said, all that matters is the reward. If the reward is the finish and that is it.. then, doesn't matter if they add cool stuff as you said - it will be ignored if it doesn't have to do with the finish. (Which is why I focused on changing how the reward worked).

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I completely agree with you. Years ago in Lord of The Rings Online they had end game content where the first time you entered for the week you had a series of tasks that took you to various places throughout the instance and each task increased the rewards you would get. Not everyone got the same tasks so the first few times a week you would run something you'd end up doing all sorts of things to help others finish specific tasks. Then when your tasks were all done you could still run the content for the baseline rewards.

Sometimes the tasks were just kill x amount of a certain mob, other times it was "kill Boss Y but don't let this happen." It was a lot of fun, and it kept you on your toes.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Most groups I've been in have let the seeds pop, so I'm not sure what you have but it does not disprove anything - also not everyone is there for EXP. The one time I had someone refuse to let them pop was because they were capped, and therefore their efficiency was directly hampered by waiting.

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We clearly have very different experiences in AV, lol.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

As for your second example efficiency is a value of time and averages, if people make the content easier to handle its to increase their efficiency (rather than having to deal with mistakes or discuss anything). I don't find it shocking nor do I mind they've done it. Speed running (the idea of maximum efficiency) will never die or go anywhere. I'm strictly talking about bare minimum speed running as becoming the most inefficient use of your time and 100% completion as the most efficient (but also suggesting variations and things to mix up that 100% idea, like a "mini" infusion of deep dungeons into regular dungeons - bit like Ferth just added below).

The Satasha treasure room as I have said many times is not reward enough, I already discussed the reward needs to be in context of the people in it. If I'm maxed I don't want some BS exp or 10 gil item (most chests early on are pretty bad lol). I addressed all of this already.

The reward must relate to the player, this is obvious and you may have skimmed that part of my post if you didn't notice I had already discussed it. In a simple term I addressed the side objectives via a token that could be transformed into a value you seek, like light, tomes, exp, gil, so that no matter your situation if you joined the content for something you're probably going to get it and maximum efficiency would involve taking maximum advantage of the dungeon. In fact things like lights could be based on the side content entirely, so finishing the dungeon only ensures you obtain your side rewards (this means high level players going back will always make sure new players get the full experience). For glamour, doing the side content would be the drop - so its already baked into just doing it. Of course the values of the reward received need to be considered based on the circumstance (like if you were in a roulette that put you in a low level content) or if you just queued straight up for Satasha unsynced (with some proper UI and simple color/tiers you could display that information well enough for an average understanding of whats what).

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Fair enough, I apologize for skimming. These are all good ideas, but I'm left with one overarching question: why make this optional? If it's just a part of the dungeon, the result is the same as what you want; if it's optional, then some people are going to skip it, which will be even more aggravating because they will be objectively wrong to do so. What's the upside?

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Speed run PotD is the fastest way to level. Most groups spam floors 51-60. Speed runners will not pick every single silver chest but they will take ones that are close by. With higher floors (61+) you'll find more people going after silver chests.

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not only for leveling purposes. Fresh level 60 without having any other class or a support system of friends, can use these speed runs to get a quick 2k lore and a real quick weekly scripture cap. Even a veteran can profit from that, in case people are still doing relic, well can't get tomes easier if you do not want to spam alex or arf. Needed to add that ,otherwise I do agree with your post :)

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

not only for leveling purposes. Fresh level 60 without having any other class or a support system of friends, can use these speed runs to get a quick 2k lore and a real quick weekly scripture cap. Even a veteran can profit from that, in case people are still doing relic, well can't get tomes easier if you do not want to spam alex or arf. Needed to add that ,otherwise I do agree with your post :)

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PvP is a better way to start off in my view since getting 235 gear is quick while on top of getting lore and scripts.

Also library hard can be done in 10-12 mins for 100 lore.