Quick question to all dps people in regards to dps in general

ok so the general dps pov should be a dps class should do double as a minimum as a tanking class and I mean warrior.

Why can a dps class not do at least double the dps of an equivalent item level warrior?

like they are tanking and dpsing and I don't see our dps that's like 1.5x there's useful if they are tanking and dpsing and we just dps.

and yes I mean single target dps if say a warrior can do 1.1k and a mnk can do 1.5-1.6k at il 198 like mine or does that mean I'm a weak monk that needs to get good and do at least double a tank class?

We can't really compare it to WAR now, seeing how broken they are at the moment and how the new requirements for tank is to do the maximum dps (same goes for healer I guess).
On 2.X, it was the case, but now, the meta is in a confused state, hope we'll see some fix on future patch where people will find their old place in the balance.

Where are you getting this "DPS should do double a tank's damage"?

Because that has never been a standard in this game

1.5-1.6k DPS on an I198 Monk is pretty insane and probably impossible. While I do love the preposterous numbers I can put out on my War I can see how it would dishearten people since a DPS classes rotation is immensely more evolved and complicated. The most difficult part of warrior DPS is triple fell cleave +fracture in a berserk and that's pretty simple to pull off with enough SkS.

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

1.5-1.6k DPS on an I198 Monk is pretty insane and probably impossible.

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I've seen MNKs around that ilvl do that in AoE. But not single target.

You can't do double than me or most other Warriors...but I salute you and encourage you to try! We're doing around 1300-1000 in Alex Savage.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

We're doing around 1300-1000 in Alex Savage.

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Frankly, most DPS couldn't pull that. Last night, had a Thordan PF with a DRG doing 700. It wasn't due to lack of gear.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...wsLaoo/pubhtml

1.5x is about normal on single target for max ilvl. Obviously, these numbers are in full DPS mode with generous support from other jobs; many are specifically tailored to achieve a high score for a particular person.

In general, you can't concretely say how much you should be doing over a tank. The results depend on the job, the player, the party composition and how many targets you're facing. Better to compare yourself to others of your own job, or at least other DPS.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Frankly, most DPS couldn't pull that. Last night, had a Thordan PF with a DRG doing 700. It wasn't due to lack of gear.

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D: All of the dps in my static push higher numbers than me, and I'm around 1100-1200 with food and pots. It's not even the BEST food and pots, I'm cheap.

I think you are just looking at this wrong. Wars do high dps because they wear dps gear. They wouldn't be doing that much in "tank" gear. So yes, in a sense dps classes do deal around double tank damage, but this changes when tanks start wearing dps gear.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I think you are just looking at this wrong. Wars do high dps because they wear dps gear. They wouldn't be doing that much in "tank" gear. So yes, in a sense dps classes do deal around double tank damage, but this changes when tanks start wearing dps gear.

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When you say DPS gear, isn't it only the right side? Dunno, still think WAR pushes numbers that are a little too competitive, even if they aren't beating the actual DPS.

Well the left side has same vit and str so yea, it would only be dps accessories. They are only pushing those numbers because dps gear. Take that away, and their numbers will still be better than the other tanks, but it's nowhere near as competitive with dps. Nothing to do with the job itself, it's just the result of stacking strength.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Well the left side has same vit and str so yea, it would only be dps accessories. They are only pushing those numbers because dps gear. Take that away, and their numbers will still be better than the other tanks, but it's nowhere near as competitive with dps. Nothing to do with the job itself, it's just the result of stacking strength.

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Which begs the question, why does a tank get away with dps gear in progressive content? The standard is to be a psuedo DPS who tanks fine, so you don't see many WAR without STR accessories in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Which begs the question, why does a tank get away with dps gear in progressive content? The standard is to be a psuedo DPS who tanks fine, so you don't see many WAR without STR accessories in the first place.

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It's not progression comtent anymore, at least not for the people that pump out dps-like numbers. It's overgeared farm content. During progression tanks have been wearing melded vit/str, and there's quite a huge difference in str caps between i150 and i210 right side, so the gap between dps and tank damage was also bigger. This will also change in 3.2 with crafted right side only allowing one mainstat meld per piece, so unless SE nerfs the next raid so much that tanks can wear str pieces with only one vit meld from the get go, the difference will be even bigger by then.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Which begs the question, why does a tank get away with dps gear in progressive content?

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Well, that's a different question entirely lol

I think the simple answer is the devs underestimated the player's creativity. I want to say skill, but I don't think that's the right word as they obviously designed it with a certain skill level in mind, I just think the thought of "I can wear str gear to increase my dps" is more of a creative concept than an indication of skill level. Certainly a level of skill is required to be successful with str tanking, but such would be the case without str stacking as well (ie, mechanics still exist, nevermind how much harder dps checks would be without it).

So once you create the concept, and prove it's successful, then like every other popular trend in society other people pick it up, try it out, some may make their own adjustments, and before too long it's the thing to do. The status quo, for lack of a better term.

But that's just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

It's overgeared farm content.

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This has always kinda got to me, not you but this statement in general. Content drops 210 gear. Nobody is higher than 210. We aren't going back and running with 220 or 230 gear, how is it "overgearing" exactly?

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

It's not progression comtent anymore, at least not for the people that pump out dps-like numbers. It's overgeared farm content. During progression tanks have been wearing melded vit/str, and there's quite a huge difference in str caps between i150 and i210 right side, so the gap between dps and tank damage was also bigger. This will also change in 3.2 with crafted right side only allowing one mainstat meld per piece, so unless SE nerfs the next raid so much that tanks can wear str pieces with only one vit meld from the get go, the difference will be even bigger by then.

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Tanks were running STR accessories during progression too, I wasn't referring to farm content NOW in particular, just how Wars have been accessorizing themselves this expansion.

tanks role is to control all agro mitigate damage dodge aoes and maximize dps.
healer roles dot all mobs heal all and do as much dps as possible they two have to dodge aoes.

all a dps does is dps maximum efficiency and dodge aoes so doing 1.5x a warriors damage doesn't feel enough cause we do far less in general in the dps role.

Well I dunno mates, even if ya only do 10% more, then if tha checks're tight enough n' people good enough, they're always gonna choose that 10%. Tha whole reason tanks n' healers go balls deep with it already is squeezin' out erry last drop.

Personally, an' s'just me, ah'd love if tha personal damage from alla tha non-DPS shifted ta debuffs an' buffs that improved tha group instead, but ah always liked support shite.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

This has always kinda got to me, not you but this statement in general. Content drops 210 gear. Nobody is higher than 210. We aren't going back and running with 220 or 230 gear, how is it "overgearing" exactly?

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It is because the content is tuned lower than the gear it drops. On my phone at the moment but if you look at old Coil in the Duty Finder it will say the minimum ilvl to do it, which is much lower than the gear that drops.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-X93FTnRcfW...trinityzl3.jpg

atm Warriors is nearly everything :P

the trinity is balanced around Damage (Cds included), Mitigation (Cds/Armor) , and Healing .
SCH and WHM as examples

WHM 90% healing , 10 mit (stoneskin)
SCH 70% healing , 30% mit (galvanize effects)

PLD is all about mit 70%, 10% some healing , 10 % dmg
Drk is 65% mit , 25% dmg , 10% healing


there are others thing to take into account in FFXIV , melee usually do more , AOE / Single

and i guess SE doesnt take into account the "armor" nor HP of DPS , usually balanced around DEF and MAGIC DEF (casters have more magic)

dunno how SE balance FFXIV , but war atm has lots of MIT , good DPS and even some healing ....

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

It is because the content is tuned lower than the gear it drops. On my phone at the moment but if you look at old Coil in the Duty Finder it will say the minimum ilvl to do it, which is much lower than the gear that drops.

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Well, aside from savage not being in the df and having a min ilvl :P you don't just go from minimum to over. The missing step is intended, and I think the majority of players are at the intended ilvl, since only a small % of people have actually had a4s on farm for any length of time. Does my i206 drg outgear savage even tho I've never cleared a3s? Perhaps 1+2, but over 3? I don't think so, but my item level would be over whatever minimum would be set, right? (I guess it could be like, 208 or something, then I'd be under min lol) I consider it at intended level.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Tanks were running STR accessories during progression too, I wasn't referring to farm content NOW in particular, just how Wars have been accessorizing themselves this expansion.

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Maybe one or two str accessories, but still depending on the turn. At @i185+ some tank busters were not survivable in full slaying, partly due to hp and partly due to way lower def stats one the gear. Also why are you talking about war in particular? Hp tresholds are the same for all three tanks, and the only reason to wear a vit or melded accsessory is to meet that treshold. Tank dps in dps stance isn't too far apart too, war is just slightly ahead, though fell cleave/dps is not even the reason why war is so good and a staple for every group, that seems to be a pretty common misconception...


@whiskeybravo

Savage is overgeared because at i205+ and with thordan weapons the gear check is gone. Tanks can wear full slaying and stay in dps stance without dying, dps don't need to bring they're best to meet the check. You can have multiple deaths in A3s and still clear it with 30+ seconds ahead of enrage. Of course many groups still struggle to beat A3/4, but this is because they're mechanically challenging fights that still require a lot of communication and raid awareness and they still punish mistakes pretty hard/require a high degree of execution. In my opinion, content is overgeared the moment when solid groups start to sell/7-man it. This has been the case in savage for quite a while now.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

tanks role is to control all agro mitigate damage dodge aoes and maximize dps.
healer roles dot all mobs heal all and do as much dps as possible they two have to dodge aoes.

all a dps does is dps maximum efficiency and dodge aoes so doing 1.5x a warriors damage doesn't feel enough cause we do far less in general in the dps role.

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While I'll agree that DPS has the least responsibility. You left out that maintaining there rotation to maximize dps is a little more complex than a tank, or a healer.

umm not quite drk and warriors are more complex than the 1-2-3 tank pld.

the issue im stating is a dps only needs to max dps and at on average if good dps you only do about 1.5x the damage of a warrior tank.

warriors also have a lot to do maintaining stacks and all mitigating damage and tanking. but the fact they still can potentially do only say 1/3 dps less than an optimal dps seems to not feel right.

Part of the problem I see is that SE built tanks and healers with extra powerful attacks thinking that those players would be using them less often and instead be focusing most of their time on tanking or healing, (I wonder wherever they got that idea?). Because of this tank and healer attacks hit for more power than they really should per attack, (particularly Cleric Stance healers since that actually not only switches your MND to INT, but gives you a DPS boost on top of that), so a full DPSing tank or healer can put out damage numbers comparable to or in some cases surpassing actual DPS numbers while requiring a fraction of the work to get there. Theoretically in normal content this won't end up being the case because they will have to eventually tank or heal to keep the party from wiping, but when they find a work around to that, (have one player solo heal/tank in eight player content meant to require two of that role, usually), they get high numbers fairly easily.....

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

umm not quite drk and warriors are more complex than the 1-2-3 tank pld.

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If we're talking about current content, then Pld's are no longer a 1-2-3 Tank. They're still not nearly as complex in usage as War and Drk, but they do have 3 combos and a dps rotation that is not all that different from Wars (just much lower in Dps).

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

the issue im stating is a dps only needs to max dps and at on average if good dps you only do about 1.5x the damage of a warrior tank. warriors also have a lot to do maintaining stacks and all mitigating damage and tanking. but the fact they still can potentially do only say 1/3 dps less than an optimal dps seems to not feel right.

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You should also keep in mind that there are 2 factors to War's that contribute to their high Dps output that most people do not consider.

The first is that War's aren't as complicated as most people make them out to be (at least not from a pure Dps standpoint). I'm not saying they're easy to tank with, but everything is fluid for a War. Their stacks of Wrath/Abandon pretty much take care of themselves, because their combos generate them. Their OGCD moves do not interrupt those combos. Stance dancing does not interrupt their combos. Inner Beast is both a buff, attack, and Hp regen. A large chunk of their mitigation and Dps are applied only by using their combos, and several of their moves allow them to ignore the penalty of their Tank stance even while their tanking. If they want to maximize their combo Dps, they only need to rotate 2 of the 3 (assuming their okay with ignoring mitigation, which I should point out is no different or more complicated than Pld's combos, at the moment). The most difficult part of Dps as a War is actually theory crafting when to swap stances and utilize Fell Cleave (or decimate in a multiple mob tanking situation). Easy stance dancing makes this pretty simple, and if the War is OT, this isn't even an issue.

The second part that people don't consider is that Warriors typically have 100% up-time on the boss when MT'ing. When in the MT position, there are literally no interruptions to their Dps in most boss fights. Real Dps don't always have that luxury. Sometimes they have to follow fight mechanics that take them away from the boss. OT War's also suffer this setback, but unlike the MT war they get a dmg boost from not tanking or worrying about things like buffs. They use a simple 2 combo rotation, Fell Cleave all day, and pop Berserk when it comes up to get additional Dps without the setback of Defiance's dmg penalty.

I skimmed once I saw the 'double damage' theory about tanks and dps. It's nonsense.

This has never been a thing in ff.

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Originally Posted by Februs

You should also keep in mind that there are 2 factors to War's that contribute to their high Dps output that most people do not consider.

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Neither of the points are relative for a tank in tank gear, though. I can do perfect combos, have perfect timing for fell cleaves and 100% uptime, but if I'm not wearing str gear then I just look like a crappy war. Conversely, I can wear full str, put out half the effort and have amazing looking numbers by comparison. Now, without getting into what's the right or wrong way to play, it should be easy enough to see this has very little to do with the job itself and everything to do with what gear your're wearing. If you want to compare pld, drk, war dps with each other, either in vit or str, then that's fine, I just think the dynamic changes when you compare dps geared tank to dps geared dps, it's more or less just dps vs dps at that point, not tank vs dps.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

In my opinion, content is overgeared the moment when solid groups start to sell/7-man it. This has been the case in savage for quite a while now.

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I would only say that those particular people are overgeared for their skill level, as well as anyone that has had a4s on farm for a while and thus has all the gear available. Would you tell a player with i205 + thordan weapon who has never stepped foot in alex savage that they overgear it? Surely they have the gear to be able to clear it given enough practice, but would you really tell them they overgear it?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

umm not quite drk and warriors are more complex than the 1-2-3 tank pld.

the issue im stating is a dps only needs to max dps and at on average if good dps you only do about 1.5x the damage of a warrior tank.

warriors also have a lot to do maintaining stacks and all mitigating damage and tanking. but the fact they still can potentially do only say 1/3 dps less than an optimal dps seems to not feel right.

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I don't know about DRK, but WAR is basically 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. Although keep in mind, every WAR plays differently.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

OT WARs were wearing full slaying right-side for A3S and A4S during progression since the DPS checks were very high. I believe only the MT DRKs were wearing a few pieces of melded crafted 150 accessories with slaying right side.

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I just checked the Elysium A3s week 3 kill. The hp numbers both tanks have are not reachable in full slaying with the gear available at that point, not even close.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I would only say that those particular people are overgeared for their skill level, as well as anyone that has had a4s on farm for a while and thus has all the gear available. Would you tell a player with i205 + thordan weapon who has never stepped foot in alex savage that they overgear it? Surely they have the gear to be able to clear it given enough practice, but would you really tell them they overgear it?

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That's exactly what I would tell them. At almost full 210 eso with 205 weapon the gearcheck for savage is gone. However, the skillcheck still remains, which alone is enough to keep many groups from clearing.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

That's exactly what I would tell them. At almost full 210 eso with 205 weapon the gearcheck foe savage is gone. However, the skillcheck still remains, which alone is enough to keep many groups from clearing.

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Well, we are just going to have to agree to disagree I guess lol. I can't consider someone who doesn't have drops from content (or beyond) being overgeared for said content. You don't just go from minimum gearing to over gearing.

An interesting thought (IMO at least) is that scob savage was released after regular scob, since we didn't get any higher level gear than 110, anybody that completed scob (which you had to in order to attempt savage) was automatically "overgeared" for savage according to your logic, even though many people didn't clear it until the next set of gear came out. Hell, iirc we didn't even get server first clears on leviathan until those groups were done farming fcob.

Edit: Indeed, savage scob was released in July 2014, fcob in October 2014, Leviathan t9 savage server first clear was feb 2015, a full 7 months after it came out. Lucrezia got it Aug 2014, no surprise there I guess, everyone else had to be 20 levels overgeared lol

Wrong, in Defiance and full fending I can still push higher numbers than some dps because I know my job and how to play it effectively. Which is more than can be said of a fair share of DF players.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Wrong

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What is?

It would be more appropriate to compare yourself to an equally skilled dps, in which case you wouldn't be all that close in defiance and full fending.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Well, we are just going to have to agree to disagree I guess lol. I can't consider someone who doesn't have drops from content (or beyond) being overgeared for said content. You don't just go from minimum gearing to over gearing.

An interesting thought (IMO at least) is that scob savage was released after regular scob, since we didn't get any higher level gear than 110, anybody that completed scob (which you had to in order to attempt savage) was automatically "overgeared" for savage according to your logic, even though many people didn't clear it until the next set of gear came out. Hell, iirc we didn't even get server first clears on leviathan until those groups were done farming fcob.

Edit: Indeed, savage scob was released in July 2014, fcob in October 2014, Leviathan t9 savage server first clear was feb 2015, a full 7 months after it came out. Lucrezia got it Aug 2014, no surprise there I guess, everyone else had to be 20 levels overgeared lol

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What? Why would anyone that completed ScoB automatically be overgeared for ScoB savage by my logic? I didn't say anything even close to that in any of my previous posts. ^^ What I said is that at a certain ilvl the gear check is pretty much gone, and that point is certainly reached when people speed run/solo heal/7-man stuff, when tanks can wear full slaying and tank in dps stance 100% of the fight and still meet hp thresholds for tank busters, when 3 dps can meet the dps check (see 7-man carries/sales). At what ilvl that point is reached completely depends on the content and what ilvl it's tuned for. ScoB was tuned for i90, and it was beaten in i90. World 1st t9 from blue garter had an average group ilvl of exactly i100, but was beaten in full i90 by lucrezia later on. ScoB savage however was tuned for i110, even if it dropped gear of that same ilvl, which pretty much means that yes, in i130 people were overgeared for it.

Besides that, the reason why not many groups beat ScoB savage before they had full i130 gear was mainly because they had no interest in it, the abundance of better gear rewards was one major reason for this. After FcoB, which wasn't that hard at all frankly, a lot of raid groups had nothing to do until 3.0 so they attempted savage. That's what my group did, too. I also know of alot of groups that cleared ScoB savage in i130 pretty quickly and then went back to do it in i110 for the original challenge.

Well there is that little caveat, if we had to wait 8 months between scob savage and fcob certainly more people would've been attempting it at least. So if groups spent more time optimizing scob savage, at some point I'm sure at least 1 group of the best players would've been able to carry/sell a savage run, would you consider it at that point to be overgeared content? Even tho the gear itself didn't change? That's kinda what I meant by your logic.

I'm not really trying to argue with you about any of this, I just find it interesting that something can be called overgeared farm content when only like 3% of the game's population has actually cleared it lol

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Well there is that little caveat, if we had to wait 8 months between scob savage and fcob certainly more people would've been attempting it at least. So if groups spent more time optimizing scob savage, at some point I'm sure at least 1 group of the best players would've been able to carry/sell a savage run, would you consider it at that point to be overgeared content? Even tho the gear itself didn't change? That's kinda what I meant by your logic.

I'm not really trying to argue with you about any of this, I just find it interesting that something can be called overgeared farm content when only like 3% of the game's population has actually cleared it lol

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Yeah I get ya. First of all, I'm talking purely from the perspective of a raider, so I assume the playerbase we're talking about has a decent understanding of they're jobs and how to handle raid mechanics at the very least. From this perspective I would even go as far and as saying that A1s and A2s are close to being faceroll content, because they are very easy mechanically and the things that made them hard initially - dps, tank, heal checks, aka gear checks - are pretty much nonexistent at this point. Every decent player that knows what he does can clear them easily.

A3 and A4 are still a different thing, though. I still think the the gear check for these is gone with Thordan weapons available and gobtwines for everyone, but they are in fact very, very challenging turns when it comes to mechanics and group coordination, and they're unforgiving, which means a major mistake can easily cause a wipe, which makes them still require high execution, even with current gear. So in my opinion, for the groups that are clearing savage for quite a while now, yes, it's overgeared farm content. For everyone else it's at least overgeared, still not neccessarily farm content if they didn't clear A3/4s yet, though.

Regarding ScoB savage, maybe there would have been groups being able to sell certain turns in i110, at least t6 savage. For the other turns I'm not sure though. Not saying it's entirely impossible, but it would be a major challenge to do it. People normally sell content which they are a 100% confident in clearing it with 7 people in a short amount of time, which I don't think would work with ScoB in i110, though.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

I just checked the Elysium A3s week 3 kill. The hp numbers both tanks have are not reachable in full slaying with the gear available at that point, not even close.

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Did you account for food, party buff, and tank drops from Alex 2?

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Originally Posted by lulunami

Did you account for food, party buff, and tank drops from Alex 2?

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Yes, I did.

They most likely had lots of melding pieces.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Well there is that little caveat, if we had to wait 8 months between scob savage and fcob certainly more people would've been attempting it at least. So if groups spent more time optimizing scob savage, at some point I'm sure at least 1 group of the best players would've been able to carry/sell a savage run, would you consider it at that point to be overgeared content? Even tho the gear itself didn't change? That's kinda what I meant by your logic.

I'm not really trying to argue with you about any of this, I just find it interesting that something can be called overgeared farm content when only like 3% of the game's population has actually cleared it lol

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Problem was that until fcob was released Savage was on the same lockout as normal. A lot of groups preferred to get their gear from all coils instead of trying to kill savage. And no one would probably wanna pay the huge amount of gil they would charge for selling savage just to get a title so it wasn't really worth anything for the sellers.