Any new new in NIN's positional so?

see above? My guess they adding them so we can do more damage by prositionals due to mudras being so unreliable at times. Sometimes I want to do Hutton.. End up doing fumarole or raton- do freaking annoying.

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Originally Posted by AzraelX

see above? My guess they adding them so we can do more damage by prositionals due to mudras being so unreliable at times. Sometimes I want to do Hutton.. End up doing fumarole or raton- do freaking annoying.

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Yes, they are still planning on adding positionals to a number of our weaponskills. How many, which ones? No one knows cept' SE.

I'm scared.

I wish SE would tell us which skills/how many skills are getting them so I can know if it's time to hang up my daggers. Not knowing is the scariest thing.

I'm a little confused as to what exactly the concern is.

If you lock onto the target moving to different position merely involves pressing left and right....

I'm really not that worried to be honest I like to move around I just want to know what they are.

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Originally Posted by Shuon

I'm a little confused as to what exactly the concern is.

If you lock onto the target moving to different position merely involves pressing left and right....

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Some players think it takes away from the "spirit" of NIN. The lack of positionals was a selling point for them. Others feel it will isn't fair since we already deal with mundra lag issues. Personally, speaking as someone who has main'd NIN since it released, I won't have any problems with the positionals. The diminishing of Goads importance and a silly enmity tool are the things that bug me, not positionals (though I'm not fond of them simply because they add nothing to the class.)

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Originally Posted by AzraelX

I'm really not that worried to be honest I like to move around I just want to know what they are.

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true if we knew the changes and if they weren't reliant on expansion abilities people could really just start practicing right now.

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Originally Posted by Shuon

I'm a little confused as to what exactly the concern is.

If you lock onto the target moving to different position merely involves pressing left and right....

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Some of the concerns: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...lls_in/crl4hz6

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Originally Posted by Adire

I'm scared.

I wish SE would tell us which skills/how many skills are getting them so I can know if it's time to hang up my daggers. Not knowing is the scariest thing.

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Positionals certainly haven't killed Monks ... Sincerely doubt adding a Flank req to a couple of NIN skills will cause a mass exodus.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Positionals certainly haven't killed Monks ... Sincerely doubt adding a Flank req to a couple of NIN skills will cause a mass exodus.

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Monks have been a very positional job from the start, so obviously positionals won't kill it....positionals are part of what defines it. Just as the lack of positionals and increased difficulty elsewhere are part of what define ninja.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Some of the concerns: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...lls_in/crl4hz6

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I've already stated my stance on positionals plenty. But I do agree it is kind of a ridiculous blow to the class with how they are essentially making Goad even less important to a party. The enmity thing is weird/odd/quirky as I don't recall any instance I've ever had that would make it meaningful.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I've already stated my stance on positionals plenty. But I do agree it is kind of a ridiculous blow to the class with how they are essentially making Goad even less important to a party. The enmity thing is weird/odd/quirky as I don't recall any instance I've ever had that would make it meaningful.

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Well, Yoshida was right in that NIN's can deal a massive amount of damage in the first few moments of the fight. I do just that with my opener/rotation.

I just got out of WoD and pulled aggro off the tank with it and got half the alliance cleaved and AoE'd by the dragon actually >_>

So an aggro dump can be useful, if not exciting.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Monks have been a very positional job from the start, so obviously positionals won't kill it....positionals are part of what defines it. Just as the lack of positionals and increased difficulty elsewhere are part of what define ninja.

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Except NIN did have positionals originally.

They changed it to how it is now pretty quick, though for a while the tooltips reflected the Flanking/Rear requirement. And even the bizarre Sneak Attack from the front XD

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Except NIN did have positionals originally.

They changed it to how it is now pretty quick, though for a while the tooltips reflected the Flanking/Rear requirement. And even the bizarre Sneak Attack from the front XD

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Wrong the English translation had a mistake none of ninjas abilities had a positional requirement. That is neither here nor there though this topic was about if we knew what was getting positional we don't no need to turn this thread into another flame war between melees

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

Wrong the English translation had a mistake none of ninjas abilities had a positional requirement. That is neither here nor there though this topic was about if we knew what was getting positional we don't no need to turn this thread into another flame war between melees

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Flame war? I brought up Monks because they are the most positional heavy Job in the game.

All I'm saying is that its not going to kill Ninjas to have to go to the side for a couple of skills.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Except NIN did have positionals originally.

They changed it to how it is now pretty quick, though for a while the tooltips reflected the Flanking/Rear requirement. And even the bizarre Sneak Attack from the front XD

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I don't think that's correct. Please show me a link with proof that there were more positionals on NIN than sneak/trick attack. I did not start playing the job until after 2.5, so may not recall correctly.

There is no reason for a NIN to use sneak attack over trick attack either. Why it's frontal anyways though, who knows. A ninja shouldn't be attacking anywhere but from behind if being stealthy, much less from the front.

But while trick attack is positional, it in practice allows a NIN to not have to worry much about positioning, because the rear is the only place a NIN needs to focus on. So unless NINs had other positionals from the beginning, your point there is off.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Flame war? I brought up Monks because they are the most positional heavy Job in the game.

All I'm saying is that its not going to kill Ninjas to have to go to the side for a couple of skills.

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The first part was for you the second part was for the rest of the thread I apologize if you thought i meant you specifically were starting something.

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Originally Posted by Adire

I don't think that's correct. Please show me a link with proof that there were more positionals on NIN than sneak/trick attack. I did not start playing the job until after 2.5, so may not recall correctly.

There is no reason for a NIN to use sneak attack over trick attack either. Why it's frontal anyways though, who knows. A ninja shouldn't be attacking anywhere but from behind if being stealthy, much less from the front.

But while trick attack is positional, it in practice allows a NIN to not have to worry much about positioning, because the rear is the only place a NIN needs to focus on. So unless NINs had other positionals from the beginning, your point there is off.

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It was a tooltip error where one of the skills read as having a flank positional for extra dmg. Wasn't true, though until I found this out I treated it like a positional without issue.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

It was a tooltip error where one of the skills read as having a flank positional for extra dmg. Wasn't true, though until I found this out I treated it like a positional without issue.

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Ah. Well the point still stands, it was SE's intent to not have positionals be present besides sneak/trick attack in NIN originally.

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Originally Posted by Adire

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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...18d0d45bf52d59

2.4 patch notes. Dancing Edge is started to have a Flanking requirement to get the full 260 Potency after Gust Slash.
If it was a simple mistranslation, That mistranslation managed to make its way into the game, as the ingame tooltip for the skill reflected that Flank requirement.
That was corrected in a later patch, Though Ninjas in general were executing it from Flank with the expectation that it increased the potency, Myself included.
We were told pretty quick that the potency is the same from all around and that a patch would fix the tooltip.

My point is, even when that phantom requirement (translation mistake or altered design notwithstanding) was there tricking a lot of us into Flanking for it, no one cared when they told we didn't need to Flank.
It didn't make any difference whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...18d0d45bf52d59

2.4 patch notes. Dancing Edge is started to have a Flanking requirement to get the full 260 Potency after Gust Slash.
If it was a simple mistranslation, That mistranslation managed to make its way into the game, as the ingame tooltip for the skill reflected that Flank requirement.
That was corrected in a later patch, Though Ninjas in general were executing it from Flank with the expectation that it increased the potency, Myself included.
We were told pretty quick that the potency is the same from all around and that a patch would fix the tooltip.

My point is, even when that phantom requirement (translation mistake or altered design notwithstanding) was there tricking a lot of us into Flanking for it, no one cared when they told we didn't need to Flank.
It didn't make any difference whatsoever.

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To be fair that was probably because people within the first night figured out it didn't have any requirements and spread the news so a majority didn't have to even pretend like it did. Either way I would like to know what they're changing so i can get it down for the hell of it.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

To be fair that was probably because people within the first night figured out it didn't have any requirements and spread the news so a majority didn't have to even pretend like it did. Either way I would like to know what they're changing so i can get it down for the hell of it.

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I'm going to be super amused if it ends up with Dancing Edge that gets a Flank requirement :3

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Originally Posted by Sylve

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Well, I imagine the design choice to exclude positionals was made in part because of the view that the job was challenging enough to play to justify its DPS.

The intent was there to make it a non-positional oriented job from the start, and while there were of course people who played the job using positionals believing them to actually be implemented(and probably played it well), it was unnecessary.

Plus, back at that time, the job was new and for all people knew, it was the intended difficulty. Now we know better. And now we know that NIN is a job with a very definitive playstyle. I, along with a lot of people I would assume, choose to main it because we like the type of difficulty it has vs the type MNK and early DRG had.

I've said on other threads, there are many ways they can make NIN more difficult to play without adding positionals that appeal to MNK mains. They can add difficulty to appeal to the type of person who mains NIN, and that would be better in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

I'm going to be super amused if it ends up with Dancing Edge that gets a Flank requirement :3

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You and me both would be the trolliest thing SE could do. Honestly though we'll probably have it changed to be more like dragoons with mudras. Unless they drink the Kool aid and give them the same amount of positionals as monks.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

You and me both would be the trolliest thing SE could do. Honestly though we'll probably have it changed to be more like dragoons with mudras. Unless they drink the Kool aid and give them the same amount of positionals as monks.

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I really do doubt that it'll more than 2 skills that get a positional.
3 at the most.

Dancing Edge is a good candidate. Though there really isn't all that many skills that make sense to add a positional too, but lets not forget that we're getting brand new weapon skills, which may be where the positionals get slapped onto.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Well, I imagine the design choice to exclude positionals was made in part because of the view that the job was challenging enough to play to justify its DPS.

The intent was there to make it a non-positional oriented job from the start, and while there were of course people who played the job using positionals believing them to actually be implemented(and probably played it well), it was unnecessary.

Plus, back at that time, the job was new and for all people knew, it was the intended difficulty. Now we know better. And now we know that NIN is a job with a very definitive playstyle. I, along with a lot of people I would assume, choose to main it because we like the type of difficulty it has vs the type MNK and early DRG had.

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I think you put too much emphasis on thinking SE handcrafted NIN difficulty to perfection without positionals in mind.
I think it's much more flexible than that, and they clearly think that adding positionals to manage would be within the range of mechanics they want for NIN.
Whatever they thought originally, they changed their mind and think we can handle the NIN rotation with positionals.

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Originally Posted by Adire

I've said on other threads, there are many ways they can make NIN more difficult to play without adding positionals that appeal to MNK mains. They can add difficulty to appeal to the type of person who mains NIN, and that would be better in my opinion.

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You say that, yet I'm a NIN main and I obviously think adding positionals are okay.
I've argued this with you before, but don't get me wrong.
I think they can and should add a lot of interesting and challenging mechanics to Ninja going forward.
But I've also made it clear that I believe NIN isn't ready for that much change yet due to it only being live for one tier of raiding.
I want them to think carefully on what direction on how to develop NIN.
Positionals aren't a development or direction. They're more basic than that.


I think Positionals are to Melee as Casting is to Ranged.
Ranged get more dps standing still and lose dps moving, but some are certainly more mobile than other having instant casts or through stance switching (for the new BRD).
Every ranged still has to work around the idea that movement needs to be managed.
This is why BRD had to get WM.

For Melee, some have less positional bonuses than others (equivalent to having instant casts) but they should all still have to consider their movement.
I honestly don't think freedom of movement is a luxury any dps should afford.
I don't think NIN should be MNKs with knives, but having positionals doesn't do that.
Just like charging attacks is a basic function of ranged, positional attacks should be a basic function of melee.

I want to play a NIN and I want them to add interesting Ninja only mechanics.
I also want to have to consider my movement to some extent or lose some damage while doing all of that.
I think NIN will get some more interesting mechanics after Heavensward launch since it came out so late.

Sure, it's not great to see everyone else get more interesting changes.
But we shouldn't pretend things are equal here. NIN came out in 2.4 with the Final Coil.
Our launch was late and there's no reason to expect we'd get the same treatment.

So out of curiosity have they said if the positional will just do extra damage compared to now or will missing the positional will result in less damage then the skills currently have.

As an example Dancing edge currently has 260, so will it keep the 260 base with a bonus for positional, or will the base be like 200 (random number) and the bonus make it like 300 (also random number).

If the former is true then I don't real see a problem with adding the positionals, because you can keep your current rotation while slowly adding in the new mechanics with no loss in DPS.

All in all I will wait to judge the play style until I get the chance to use it but I agree that more information would be helpful.

Man, Ninja is perfect. I'm honestly not gonna miss the more importance of Goad. I rather they get rid of it in all honestly. The positionals aren't even that bad. Stop planting your feet to the ground and taking AoEs. The enmity control thing is only good for.... nothing. The hell am I gonna use it for? Unless we're gonna see more of Kaliya's head mechanics, I just don't know. Also the mudra lag sounds more of a personal problem than an actual problem. Only time it lags is when the server is lagging cuz I've only dealt with it on very rare occasions.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

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You may want to review the thread I posted on the last page. The person who posted it personally doesn't mind positionals but does see why people do mind them on NIN.

I also never said all NIN mains are like I am. I am saying that a lot of people do like NIN for its playstyle though, and preserving it is important in order to preserve diversity.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

I'm going to be super amused if it ends up with Dancing Edge that gets a Flank requirement :3

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Not as amused as I'll be when all they do is add a new Hide skill (Surprise Attack?) with a Flank requirement, one which no doubt will be as amazing as Sneak Attack.

Although looking at what they're doing to other Jobs, a new X Attack could be an amazing addition. Work it like Black Mages Enochian perhaps... Keeps Sution up and removes the cooldown for X Attacks. Then we have a new rotation in which we pop the new Flank Attack > Trick Attack > Sneak Attack > repeat, before the effect wears off... That would be the best way to implement positional requirements on Ninja. Would be nice if Sneak Attack wasn't so damned worthless...

Holy crap I kinda really want that now... A new passive buff which removes the cooldown on Sneak/Trick/Flank Attack. Flank Attack keeps Sution up for multiple attacks. Sution > Flank Attack > Trick Attack > Sneak Attack > Shukuchi back behind the mob.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I think Positionals are to Melee as Casting is to Ranged.

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for me positional in mmorpg, is mostly something that design a rogue class, however in this game it was the monk that did end with the most positional recquirement, i had said it while the beta that it was more a rogue stuff.

when they did decide to bring the ninja without positional, i had found it ironical, but at the same time, the lack of jobs free of this that was a head on fight that was able to fight without take advantage of weakness was too important for be against it.

in most game, only one type of melee class have positional, it's the sneak rogue type class. not all.... for take an example from WoW, the warrior dps don't fight from flank or back, they are attacking wherever they want. same for the monk... positional don't definite melee, it your vision, not the reality! it will be nice to admit that your vision is not forced to be the one that will be good.

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Originally Posted by Adire

You may want to review the thread I posted on the last page. The person who posted it personally doesn't mind positionals but does see why people do mind them on NIN.

I also never said all NIN mains are like I am. I am saying that a lot of people do like NIN for its playstyle though, and preserving it is important in order to preserve diversity.

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I read that. What I'm saying is that they're making a more basic design for all dps to consider.
You can see that with the addition of WM for BRD as well.
It's okay to not like positionals, play a class with less positionals then. NIN might not even have much.
But everyone should have to consider their movement to some extent.

Mudra lag certainly is an issue and I admit the Fuuton change is a bandaid fix for now.
That said, it's a technical issue and I don't think they're ready to make it client-side just yet.
I think people underestimate how much it would take to do that when almost everything is run server side.


The rest of that post is addressed by the fact that we simply don't deserve more changes yet because we haven't been out long enough for testing and thoughtful development forward.
Lack of positionals is not a play style in itself. It's just the context and foundation of how the rotation is framed.
You're not supposed to love your cast times as a caster, but you're supposed to consider it worth the payoff in the end.

Diversity should come in parts and DRG already barely has any positionals. NIN has one a minute and MNK has almost all positionals.
That seems to favor a lack of positionals more than it doesn't on live.
That's not more varied. It's less.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

in most game, only one type of melee class have positional, it's the sneak rogue type class. not all.... for take an example from WoW, the warrior dps don't fight from flank or back, they are attacking wherever they want. same for the monk... positional don't definite melee, it your vision, not the reality! it will be nice to admit that your vision is not forced to be the one that will be good.

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Well aware of how melee work in other games.
But guess what? FFXIV took positionals on a different level than any other MMO out there and made it a foundation for melee when the game launched.
And I personally think it puts all other games to shame because it has a cohesive design about battle movement.

So yea, I'm talking about FFXIV which I didn't think I need to state since this is the FFXIV forums, and SE clearly has a different vision.
Positionals are honestly one of the unique features of the game and it may not be the best thing ever but an aspect of movement consideration that was only for ranged in most other games.
Brilliantly, it's the opposite as well.
You have to move as Melee and you have to stay still as Ranged for maximum dps.
There should be different levels between Jobs but that's the basic guideline in this game. And it comes across as much more cohesive.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Positionals certainly haven't killed Monks ... Sincerely doubt adding a Flank req to a couple of NIN skills will cause a mass exodus.

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Here's the thing: Monks don't have to deal with 20 sec recast Ninjutsus, which require manual input for maximum dps increase. Mudra lag already hinders those who suffer from it (quite a lot of players in fact).

What have monks to deal with outside their GCDs? Nothing actually, hit your only 2 off gcd attacks when ready and that's it, easily done while dancing around the mob.

Adding positionals to ninja can become a real stress when moving and managing mudras at the same time and meeting your positional hits for max dps output.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

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But see, that's the problem. "Play a class with less positionals then." NIN is the class I've been playing with "less positionals." Now that is potentially one less option, especially given that it's going to be on old skills.

And yes, lack of positionals is very well a playstyle. Why? Because NIN's difficulty and appeal lies elsewhere. Timer management, a high amount of multitasking. That's what replaces positionals.

And I don't think bringing up DRG is a good idea. DRG originally had many important positional requirements (like Heavy Thrust, missing this was even more of a hit to DPS than missing MNK positionals), now they are removed. NIN is getting Dragoon's former weaknesses added to it. How is this progress, or even change worth making? DRG is strongly looking like it's going to be the easiest class to play with the 2nd highest DPS.

Adding positionals to one job =/= removing them from another. They are very different changes, and why did they bother making DRG so non-positional if they felt all melees should be doing more positionals in the first place?

They removed positional requirements and added positionals bonuses.
Before they changed the DRG positionals, it was punishing to miss but it was still only 2 positionals to hit around 5 times a minute.
After the change, it's the same except the positionals were only bonuses rather than requirements.

Those old requirements were bad. I'll say that too.
Positionals should not stop a combo if you miss, or stop a buff like Heavy Thrust.
There's no reason to believe NIN positionals won't be bonuses. Because we have progressed passed those for the most part.
We do have a requirement positional but that's because it's a raid cooldown.


The range of positionals favor a lack of them between the 3 melee.
NIN still has everything it had before, and now it has something else to "multitask".
You don't need to have one or the other and I'm pretty sure NIN will not have as much as MNK.
Positionals won't suddenly define NIN, it will just be part of the flow of the rotation and people will need to learn to move while doing the rest.

And like I've said a few times now, people should already know how to move and cast Mudra.
If you can't, you're already potentially losing dps. Adding them simply adds it rotationally.

The scale has been pretty off anyway. The old DRG positionals were bad but still didn't happen often.
MNK had less at launch and then they made True Strike and Demolish have it.

Look at it -
NIN uses 1 every minute.
DRG uses 5 every minute. (Both before and after changes)
MNK uses 28 every minute.

How is that diverse or a decent scale? It clearly favors one side right now.

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Originally Posted by Adire

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Maybe jumping a bit too much there. As in, I doubt SE will do the same mistake by adding OLD DRG positionals to NIN new positionals. They will do as they are now, potency boost. As it is thou, NINs have the positional that suffers the most if missed.

Again, I'm not in favor of positionals for Ninjas, dealing with mudras is enough. But we'll have to see what they add and how.

I am reading this and I guess I am confused on some of the base points... Key one being; what is there difficult to manage about with the Ninja?

Now, before people try to pull out the "Cameron, you only have Rogue to 15 according to your Lodestone!" stuff, please note that I did have an alt with Ninja into Final Coil and was successfully meeting 2-3 DPS places without top end gear (so either I was playing with some poor DPS, or I managed the rotation well enough to get by).

So that out of the way... What's difficult to manage with the Ninja? I see people say Mudras. Okay, I can grant a little bit of that. Sometimes you might slip up and cast the wrong Ninjutsu, that can make anywhere from a minor dent (using the wrong attack skill) to a major one (messing up Huton). Anyone using a macro for Mudras should be discounted because of the inherent lag they add. But the lag part? I'm sorry, but I don't buy that. Why? Because your most common used Ninjutsu in hard content is going to be Shuriken. Unless Foe's Requiem is up Shuriken is going to outdamage Raiton slightly thanks to 1) slashing debuffs and 2) no impact to your GCD. Raiton will nudge your cooldowns back a bit. There's been math on this elsewhere in the forums and while it isn't much of a lead between Shuriken and Raiton it is there (you use Raiton while you're travelling if you would otherwise have used Shuriken).

The other bit of 'difficulty' I've seen mention is managing your buffs. Really? Somehow Ninja have that harder than the other classes? We have a pretty set rotation and don't have much in the way of buffs to really manage. It isn't a tough class and it's easy to get really high damage numbers, especially spike numbers.

The link to the Reddit post that Adire gave was mentioning positionals added to oGCD skills but I could not see any reference for this so I'm going to assume it's hogwash. That won't happen, simply put. So let's get that out of mind. So we have two camps for how positionals will be handled; monk, or dragoon. I am leaning more towards dragoon style positionals which is very minimal. And additionally those positionals are only for additional damage anyway. And how hard is it to skip back and forth over a three pixel line? You do not have to go all the way from a mob's left side all the way to its rear after all.

Personally, I look forward to the adjustment because I suspect that the added positionals will allow for a potency increase for a very, very minor increase in difficulty to play the class to it's full potential. I for one am excited to hit things even harder.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

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Take into account for example that DRG cooldowns attacks (mostly the 3 jumps) will lock em in position for about a second or so.

Same with Ninjas when enemies reach the 20%, assassination locks you in place while its going.

Monk is the job complete free of any of his skills that would freeze him in place, making it the most mobile one of the three melees.

Surely, ninja still has only 1 positional every min, but a lot of your damage comes from your ninjutsu, which requires more button pressin that monks rotations and dance around.

As said, every melee has its own thing to worry about when dpsing and exploiting itself to the limit.

Monk: gotta keep spinnin' around.
DRG: Gotta jump and meet my ocasional positional.
Ninja: better not fuck up my mudras nor my trick attack, else it will be pain and shame.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

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Let's take a look at those numbers.

We've got a job that uses 1 per minute, a job that uses 5 per minute, and a job that uses 28 per minute. As you can see, DRG is the middleground. If anything should have more positionals added to it, it's DRG right?

We need something for the people who love positionals to death, we need something for the people who like the middleground, and we need something for people who do not like positionals. Increasing the amount of them in the lowest amount job (and I stress this again, old skills are being changed) sways the overall spectrum over to the positional favoring side.

Though I personally do not see a problem with the current numbers. They provide a fair amount of choice. Choice is a good thing. You have a heavily positional job, a middleground, and a mostly positional independent job. Adding more to the mostly independent job will only subtract from the amount of overall choice we have. To preserve choice the most, it's best that the middleground get more positionals if anything.

The thread also mentions why mudras and positionals won't mix well.

The following categories address that specifically:

"While highlighting their strengths"

"Raising the skill ceiling/More Fun"

And this category presents a strong, relevant point to that as well:

"Reduce jobs' weaknesses to fit all jobs in all fights so nobody gets left behind"

It isn't just about NINs not being able to move while casting mudras. A decent NIN should be able to do just that. It's also about the insane amount of weaving in of CDs in tandem with oGCds and positionals we will have to do in very tiny time frames, all while dealing with the ever present and not likely to go away mudra lag.

There is a clear reason why positionals have not been on NIN skills other than trick attack this entire time. The sudden change of heart is odd and impulsive of a decision. Even Yoshi's words during the live letter were pretty much saying "Ninjas currently don't have to move enough, so we want to make them move more." Who knows if he has a deep seated, well thought out reason why they need positionals after all this time. If he does, he really didn't insinuate that he does. And the only reasoning for positionals I've seen anyone provide on the forums is "I'm okay with positionals."

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Originally Posted by BlueThunder

Maybe jumping a bit too much there. As in, I doubt SE will do the same mistake by adding OLD DRG positionals to NIN new positionals. They will do as they are now, potency boost. As it is thou, NINs have the positional that suffers the most if missed.

Again, I'm not in favor of positionals for Ninjas, dealing with mudras is enough. But we'll have to see what they add and how.

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They've already done that. They lessened DRG positionals and made the job much easier and are increasing NIN positionals and making it much harder, when it was already difficult enough to justify its DPS.

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Originally Posted by Caraway

What's difficult to manage with the Ninja?

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The specific higher difficulties of NIN management: Mudras (which have a much faster and much more critical oGCD vs what MNKs and DRGs have).

Huton (vs the automatically kept up GL that monks have if they are doing their rotation correctly and the one button Heavy Thrust that is specifically there to give the buff that Dragoons have and serves no other purpose).

DoTs with very different uptimes AND application damages, one of which (mutilation) does not have high application damage and so much be used much more thoughtfully when thinking about overall DPS. Both of DRG's DoTs have heavy application damage and are combo'd, so are worth using than beyond just the DoT damage. Both of MNK's do not have heavy application damage and one is form dependant. One of these should (Demolish) have benefits outside of simply the DoT damage (form switching). The other (Touch of Death) is not form dependent but like Demolish, does not have high application. Both can be applied similarly. Mutilation's strength is only through the DoT and is not dependant on combos to be applied to its full effect (vs Shadow Fang, which is), so whether it's worth using and when it's worth using is much more situational, and the NIN has to decide more on the fly if it is worth it when factoring in which buffs/debuffs are up.

Another difficulty: When to use trick attack. Trick attack only comes around once per minute, but it is by far the most important positional any melee has to do at the same time because of this and because of how hard it hits and how it applies vulnerability. Used at the wrong time (especially if you use your offensive buff cooldowns prior to using trick attack), you may have problems. If you suiton before a boss leaves the arena after you've popped your cooldowns, you've wasted a powered up trick attack. If you use it and the boss spins around to AoE someone, you've wasted your trick attack.

Another difficulty: Kassatsu. You have to try and time it right to have Kassatsu, trick attack, offensive CDs, and Mudra all off cooldown around the same time.

Are these things less difficult than monk? Maybe, but NIN does lower base dps than monk, so it's paying for it already if true. Are they less difficult than Dragoon? Definitely not. Dragoon is much easier to play now than NIN. Less managing of multiple things than NIN, less positionals than Monk.

It really feels positionals are really being added to NIN "just because".

Also, I can't say where the person's source was for oGCDs having positionals, but it's very possible so the concern is warranted.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Snip.

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That's not a middle ground though.
15 positionals on one and 5 positions on another would be more of a spread scale.
I've already explained why NIN conceptually makes more sense to be closer to that middle ground being the faster class and one that should be more precise striking.

There isn't "choice" in that scale. It clearly favors your position.
There's one melee covered in positionals that completely dwarves the other two. DRG isn't a middle ground because it's not in the middle.
If people came to NIN purely to run from positionals, then they should just hop to DRG since that's the new lowest.

And I just disagree that NIN should lack positionals purely because of Mudra lag.
I don't see why it's that hard to deal with both. At worst, it eats into your GCD.
That's nothing compared to the issues of the old DRG who couldn't get through a combo or such.

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Originally Posted by Adire

They've already done that. They lessened DRG positionals and made the job much easier and are increasing NIN positionals and making it much harder, when it was already difficult enough to justify its DPS.

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You need to stop saying that like if they made DRGs have less positionals.
They had 2 before and they have 2 after. They changed how they worked, which is progress.
No one is going to argue that positional requirements weren't bad, but bonuses are fine.
So they're adding positional bonuses to NIN which was never called into question.

I, personally, think Ninja can stand for more difficulty.
I don't think that difficulty has to be tied into positionals either, but I don't think adding them will make NIN that much harder to manage.
Honestly, there's no reason to talk about numbers before an expansion either. We don't know how potencies will change or things will scale.

On Live, though, NIN certainly doesn't actually have the difficulty to justify its dps. That's mostly because it does so much more than the other classes.
Of course that will change in 3.0 but everything will change, including the difficulty in other Jobs as well.

I'll accept that people don't like to dance, but this difficulty argument is just wrong.
Our rotation isn't that much harder that positionals are going to make our skill cap off the roof, even with Mudras and its lag.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Are these things less difficult than monk? Maybe, but NIN does lower base dps than monk, so it's paying for it already if true. Are they less difficult than Dragoon? Definitely not. Dragoon is much easier to play now than NIN. Less managing of multiple things than NIN, less positionals than Monk.

It really feels positionals are really being added to NIN "just because".

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Firstly, this is not true. A NIN should never lose to a MNK of equal skill.
NIN is a good bit ahead and has higher base damage.

Secondly, you listed a good bit of diverse things you think NIN needs to manage already.
That's the nature of multi-tasking, right?
But then you're adding an arbitrary line saying your character's position shouldn't be one of those things, despite all of those being different types of tasks.

You say NIN difficulty lies else, but to describe it you have to talk about all types of things.
But positionals can't be one of them, because that's where the line is drawn.

You think they added positionals "just because". I think they didn't add it at launch "just because".
I think NIN only released without positionals because the Mudra system was new and wanted to test how people managed it.
The only positional mistranslation is likely evidence it was always designed with positionals in mind.
People did better than they expected and they even had to nerf NIN (but it's still the highest melee dps).

They're probably adding it because they believe the player base could handle the rotation with positionals.
That's easily the logical conclusion.



Lastly,
I know nothing I say is going to make people like positionals or the fact that there's not much more being added.
The latter is completely unreasonable but the former isn't. There's going to be backlash for a change like this, of course.
But some of these arguments like about difficulty or diversity go way too far, echoing off each other.