Tank healing is to high

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

You just like to be contrary don't you? On literally EVERYTHING.

---

Only on things that require you to be at least slightly more advanced than a single cell organism.

If it's about being allowed to afk or be dead while other people do your job and carry you then they are all for it.

Maybe it’s my league mindset, but I think it’s fun to hard carry. Top/Mid feeding? Aka Dead healer and dps? Me and the other DPS hard carry the feeding team and get even more glory/satisfaction from knowing we are good enough to carry bad players. I think carrying is a reward not an insult.

I play a lot of vayne.

Your "league mindset" has no place in FFXIV or any MMORPG, it's a completely different genre than a MOBA.

That's like saying "I have a stealth mindset so I should be able to sneak past enemies and one shot assassinate them from behind because that is satisfying to me". Doesn't really work does it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

I play a lot of vayne.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

now it means if THEY are good and know mechanics they can carry.

---

Holding some overtuned buttons on cooldown has nothing to do with "being good". Especially since you can eat 3 aoe´s at once as tank without any def and you´ll still stay alive. It has nothing to do with skill, when a class ,or better role scales way too hard in its stats. You don´t even need Tenacity to be that unkillable, the mainstat for tanks...
I´ve carried enough groups in this game and i never felt "look how good i´m", because it doesn´t need any efford as tank and is not possible on DPS. Only healer might cause such a feeling when things go nuts hard. But spamming rezz or LB3?
Has been another thing back in SWTOR when i duo´d the last 15% of a savage-raidboss on a DPS class with my healer due to kiting, aggro-swapping and the precise use of everything we had. That has been skill-play, but being tank in FF14? Common...

(And yeah... Vayne with 3 kills or just arrived in the lategame... needs so much skill....)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhais

This is not a good comparison, tank healing didn't just suddenly turn a challenging game into a something you can't fail. Combat in this game has been getting progressively more boring for quite some time, nor has there been much difficulty in the vast majority of content for years. Tanks current healing capabilities didn't just create some massive shift in the gameplay experience.

---

Such arguments are the real issue.

You create a bigger and bigger gap with such an attitude. "It´s nothing new.", yeah ofc tanks has been broken before already. Now they´re even more broken and that´s ok?
It happens step by step and ppl are like "Ahhh, it´s ok, it doesn´t impact the gameplay so much." every time. And you see where it brought us, just because ppl have been "ok" with all the changes 10 times in a row.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

There have been far, far, far too many situations in the history of this entire game where a Tank using their Invuln has prevented a 24 man raid, much less other content, from being a massive, colossal waste of time for everyone involved.

---

Definately looks like invul needs to stay, otherwise ppl would waste their life-time in online-games, especially MMORPG´s. x)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Who cares it makes your job as a healer easier? I love the fact that I can get koed on a mechanic on a boss I don't know and watch from the floor as the paladin and reaper solo it with me and the bard dead. One scholar and one bard dead used to mean a wipe now it means if THEY are good and know mechanics they can carry.

---

Sure, but not everyone likes being carried through a boss. If the healer dies and they kill the boss from 50% to 0 anyways then I think it's reasonable to question why you're even needed when you don't have any impact on whether the party wipes anyways

There is a pretty stark difference between the tank downing the last 10% of a boss by doing the mechanics well, using their mitigation and invul smartly and saving a clear, and just soloing the boss from basically start to finish. If you can do it from 50% to 0, you could likely do it from 100 to 0, some specific mechanics aside

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Definately looks like invul needs to stay, otherwise ppl would waste their life-time in online-games, especially MMORPG´s. x)

---

No matter how much you rail, kick, and scream, Invuln abilities will not be leaving the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

You just like to be contrary don't you? On literally EVERYTHING.

---

I have this person blocked because their posts give me a legitimate headache and I refuse to entertain people who have no desire to have their opinions challenged, but the rest of you continue to quote their posts, and I see them anyway. If any of you have been in General Discussion, you'll know that it's besieged by trolls constantly. The thing with those people, is that they obviously post really controversial/factually incorrect information with the intent of getting a rise out of people. On their mains, they're probably entirely legitimate players with working brains.

Thankfully, the role forums have mostly been free of this kind of stuff, and for those who truly don't know how the game works, they are given an opportunity to learn just how stagnant our version of the holy trinity has become, and probably become a more confident and better player from it.
But every once in a while, we get someone like this.

If you read this, you "75 percentile SCH" with consistently atrocious takes and useless personal anecdotes, please block me so ideally, we can interact even less, thank you. I have no idea how Sebazy or Hyomin or really anyone from the healer forums tolerates you and your bad faith excuses for reasonable discussions. Square Enix job designers listen better than you do.

With that being said...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aluja89

Stop lmao, the only reason that was possible is because of 2x Arcane Crest and 4x Improvised Finish not because of tanks.

If you're going to talk at least be knowledgeable on the matter so follow your own advice and stop with the spreading of nonsense.

---

Nothing I said was wrong!

I am AGREEING with you in the next post you made. I said, it shouldn't be possible regardless of composition, because the core underlying fact is that it's a trident of design failures.

Why are the boss auto attacks and "tankbusters" so weak and infrequent/tank recovery options so plentiful that tanks don't even require even a single healer resource to upkeep?
Why is the raidwide damage and bleed DoTs so ineffectual and that it's practically irrelevant in the face of a few mitigation sources and an Arcane Crest?
Why is Arcane Crest so powerful and on such a low cooldown? How is this even fair to Shadeshift, or Dragoons in general, who have literally no defensives (Life Surges are not defensives)
Why is the healer design so overwhelming skewed into "solving other people's mistakes" vs having real, noticeable impact on a farm experience instead of being relegated to +1% party buff and "we need to have a healer for mechanics 1st, healing 2nd"

Pigeonholing six specific DPS, regardless of what they actually are, still doesn't remove the fact that the healer role is entirely absent. It's one thing to solo tank, or solo heal an encounter, but it's another to completely abandon the healers all together in expansion launch endgame, so quickly, that's my issue. The fight itself is only part of it, the overarching design is the problem, and it's a problem that invincible tanks are just going to proliferate after the progression experience.

What's the common complaint on healers right now? There's nothing to do, unless an emergency happens and it's salvageable(which it often isn't), otherwise it's 21111111 with the occasional, and better implemented to their credit, oGCD weave. So instead of giving the healers things to heal, like they've been asking, they get to deal with eternal tanks circle-supporting each other, an encounter design team that can't make things interesting for healer mains after progression because of gear creep, and DPS who can do their jobs for them if you stack a certain comp in our current endgame. I understand a bit of the discontent, and frustration at the lack of their agency in encounters, even if this is a unorthodox situation.

So rather than saying "Tank healing is too high!" Maybe instead what needs to be said is "Encounter damage is too low/non-threatening!"

And to continue another side discussion...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

And just to address a side discussion from earlier:
I think most of the situations you've described for Oblation can be summarized as: TBN is on cooldown, and every little bit helps, so why not? But I think you'd have to find some very specific HP thresholds at 10% DR for Oblation to be the deciding factor in a player living or dying from a targeted attack.

And if we're talking about using the charges to shield two players simultaneously, then really what we're getting at is a situation in which TBN, Reprisal, and all of the other job specific raidwide mitigation tools are on cooldown. And for that matter, Sheltron/Intervention have effectively been operating on a 2 charge system from baseline, and both actions are considerably more useful now. So this isn't even breaking novel ground in terms of flexibility.

I can't argue that Oblation has no value at all. But then again, the original iteration of Shake it Off also had 'value', but there was blood in the streets over that one because it was too niche. Well, that and the fact that WARs demand efficiency in their actions.

Would I trade Oblation for a second charge on TBN and a second storage stack of Dark Arts? Probably. Would I trade Oblation for Arcane Crest? Ye- er, no, get your grubby paws off my actions! Would I trade Oblation for a 10% bubble that generates gauge/Dark Arts when used on a tankbuster and plays a little shattering sound when it breaks? Definitely. I agree that it looks cool. That's pretty much it.

---

This is exactly why I said it needed to be buffed. The position of the skill is alright, but the effectiveness is lacking. Had someone last night using it on it's own on cooldown like a Rampart and was wondering why they kept dying. It honestly feels like someone had a good idea, made an animation for it, then shelved the actual design of the ability until late in development, or it was radically altered and had to hash something together in a week. As in, I know they can do better than this. Something similar to Arcane Crest, at least in terms of rewarding defensive mitigation with more defensive mitigation, is a healthy decision, one that is entirely absent on DRK right now. While the shift to 2mins vs 1mins have decreased my desire for additional Dark Arts stacks for aDPS padding, at least that would've been an easy 1-to-1 improvement in comparison to the esoteric, nuanced, and probably placebo improvements the job got outside of pure numbers. And that's coming from me, the person who thinks Blood Weapon stacks would be an expansion-level change that I have been unironically seeing in my dreams lately, I'm that tilted about it.

Even when things begin to hit much harder in the savage tier, will my theories actually prove to be honest raid contributions, or just hot air to justify the extra two buttons on my hotbar? I hope for the former, but prior experience is leading me to the latter conclusion. But outside from buffing Oblation, I have no real hope anything else will substantially alter, it's been too long with things in this state for me to believe otherwise. And even that minor comfort might not pan out with TBN still being lauded on the JP side.

Feels really odd to be playing the "worst" job in the entire game. Hope you're enjoying RPR though! Got mine to 90, had a blast playing it the entire time. At least something you suggested (Ingress/Egress) for DRK got put in the game in some form. Happy coincidences.

I'm actually playing and enjoying WAR for the first time.... I like it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

So rather than saying "Tank healing is too high!" Maybe instead what needs to be said is "Encounter damage is too low/non-threatening!"

---

This. Bring DRK's self healing up and scale the damage up to a reasonable level. Its clear we have the tools for higher incoming damage. I don't see why we don't have it.

Gear power creep is not a bad thing. It rewards you for playing better and getting stronger. It seems to me some of you don’t understand in RPGs you are supposed to reach a point where content gets easier the stronger better gear you get. You want the same fresh thrill/challenge even though it’s not possible in games like this. You will get your jollies when savage comes out and then when the 24 man comes out just be patient. For now extreme trials have been farmed and outscale it’s just the way of things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

So rather than saying "Tank healing is too high!" Maybe instead what needs to be said is "Encounter damage is too low/non-threatening!"

---

The problem with this is that we have been pushing for this already, prior to the current discussion surrounding tank healing. Healers have been asking and hoping for more serious damage to offset the loss of our DPS kits since the media tour for ShB when they showed us our butchered classes.

As a result of the discussions around the idea, two conclusions were met and widely agreed upon:

1.) Increased healing requirements would alienate the uber-casuals and prevent them from progressing, which Yoshi has outright stated they will not do.

2.) Undertaking such a change would likely be prohibitively costly to plan and implement for the devs at a time when they're trying to release an expansion. Ideally, they would be retooling fights across all the expansions of the game to reflect the new (as of ShB) healer toolkits and gradually ramp up the healing difficulty. That way you wouldn't just have 70 levels of gameplay and then just hit a brick wall to overcome when you hit ShB content.

Ideally, the last expansion would have been the best time for them to plan out such a thing, given their excuse in the last expansion for not giving us a healer was to better balance the role and fix gameplay issues (only to not do just that).


Ultimately, it's unlikely we'll ever get more threatening damage. Probably moreso due to #1 than 2.

Quote:

---

That being said, we also don't want to make the content impossible for players with not as high a skill level to clear. Because if we make it too intense, the number of people who can clear the content will be very limited. We don't want to have a situation where somebody is just healing the whole time, like ALL the time, or like have to HAVE to manage MP constantly.

---

- Yoshi in interview with Mizzteq

Tank healing is fun and lets healers do other stuff.... plus, if tanks refuse to use CDs, then it doesn't matter, they can still get chewed up. I hate healing tanks that can't find CDs.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Tank healing is fun and lets healers do other stuff.... plus, if tanks refuse to use CDs, then it doesn't matter, they can still get chewed up. I hate healing tanks that can't find CDs.....

---

So much fun pushing 11111111

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

So rather than saying "Tank healing is too high!" Maybe instead what needs to be said is "Encounter damage is too low/non-threatening!"

---

I agree with the tenor of what you're saying, but I also think the issues with tank and healer design are deeper than the length of a post title would allow. If you just double or tripled encounter damage, you'd get A) Sylphies squealing that healing is IMPOSSIBLEEEEEEE (despite still being pretty easy), and B) the healing kits themselves aren't that interesting either. Cure Cure Cure Cure Cure Cure isn't that much more fun than Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare, at least not in my estimation.

As for the thread topic, healer obsolescence is a symptom of a lot of things, some of which are entirely separate from tank self-sustain. On the other side of that token, I think there's something fundamentally wrong with a role in a self-declared multiplayer, teamwork-based game that has nigh invincible levels of defense, can heal itself nearly as well as a dedicated healer, and can put out enough damage that it's not significantly more painful than using a dedicated damage dealer. What is this, Skyrim? Archmage of the mage's guild, heavy armor, soloing dragons, that's all good and well in a single player RPG but a one man "good at everything" army pokes some holes in the "multiplayer" descriptor.

FFXIV is *barely* a trinity game.

My personal opinion, dungeon boss fight tied to healer. If healer doing it first time and dying to basic mechanics you have to start all over before EW as tank you are completely helpless.. just a dummy with no option but start all over again.

Now you can keep fighting, is it comfortable? Not with GNB.. I rather prefer doing decent rotation and save 25 sec cd for tank buster or saving party member.

Edit: If we are saying tank cant save the boss fight with self heal (and remove all self healing abilities) we should also apply healer/rdm/smn cant rez during boss fight option. Easy to notice if they are failing at healing or DPS failing at mechanics. Why punish one class but spare others right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

So rather than saying "Tank healing is too high!" Maybe instead what needs to be said is "Encounter damage is too low/non-threatening!"

---

Those discussions aren't mutually exclusive, though.

First, on an adjacent discussion (since these two points would otherwise be less relevant to each other than not) if there is slightly too little damage for non-tanks, but far too little for tanks, then tank damage intake, specifically, is also too low, in addition to the encounter's output.

That may be a matter of the frequency of defensive options to counter that damage, such that tanks need no direct healing beyond ST oGCDs, Kardia/Embrace, and maybe a Regen/AB per minute, or it may be a matter of their passive eHP, but whatever the case, that would be a difference beyond that seen by other roles and one which many tanks and healers find detrimental to the overall experience.

For tank healing, though, there's also a tremendous difference between short-lived barriers like TBN, damage (and mitigation, since one cannot block mid-cast)-consuming trade-offs like Clemency, and the likes of Bloodwhetting doing a minimum of twice TBN's (in practice / shield-breakable) output while applicable before, during, or after damage, such that one could get good effect out of it (both fully consume the shield, get notable mitigation under their 8 seconds' duration, and top themselves off even w/o using guaranteed Crits) if simply left to one's own devices and playing while watching solely their TV between movement mechanics. The last among those is not only overly powerful but also overly applicable, greatly reducing the gap between blind and skillful play. And when the most defensively powerful tool or the job that holds it is the least dependent upon skillful use, that feels bad for the whole role, even before getting into matters of interactions between different roles.

Yes, encounter design is currently too forgiving, but if anyone's going to make the case that tanks should be able to clutch out a lack of healer, then the same case should also be made for a lack of tanks. And when tanks passively mitigate for so much more than non-tanks, and have tremendously more eHP, bringing encounter damage up to tank's overtuned state would quickly remove any ability to precede without a tank, all while only making it slightly harder to precede without a healer (since raid damage certainly can't increase to the extent that white damage or the like against tanks can).

The tank role includes those jobs and problematic designs that are the bottleneck right now and it would be better to first deal with (1) imbalances in skill/precision to reward in the tank role and (2) the sheer amount of passive defensive throughput available to tanks before tuning encounters as a whole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalaam

There is a pretty stark difference between the tank downing the last 10% of a boss by doing the mechanics well, using their mitigation and invul smartly and saving a clear, and just soloing the boss from basically start to finish. If you can do it from 50% to 0, you could likely do it from 100 to 0, some specific mechanics aside

---

This makes me wish I could undersized party some of the dungeons just to see which bosses can be soloed but not actually possible right now

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

So much fun pushing 11111111

---

False, you have to hit 2 every 30 seconds or else you're not optimizing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dogempire

This makes me wish I could undersized party some of the dungeons just to see which bosses can be soloed but not actually possible right now

---

you can queue with friends and then have them leave or just not participate on the boss you want to solo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seku

Because it's becoming more common and easier to do.

---

More common? Perhaps. It's been this easy for Warrior and Paladin for awhile now though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The tank role includes those jobs and problematic designs that are the bottleneck right now and it would be better to first deal with (1) imbalances in skill/precision to reward in the tank role and (2) the sheer amount of passive defensive throughput available to tanks before tuning encounters as a whole.

---

I agree with your general premise in regards to tanks here. I think healer design will need to be addressed as part of this as well however.

And since we're on the topic of passive defense. Cast Tank Mastery back into the fire from whence it came!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

Cast Tank Mastery back into the fire from whence it came!

---

Yes, please. I'm fine with tanks having quite a bit more HP than non-tanks, but having a passive 20% mitigation atop such a huge spike in (M.) Defense from their gear already, such that their eHP is crazy high? No thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Yes, please. I'm fine with tanks having quite a bit more HP than non-tanks, but having a passive 20% mitigation atop such a huge spike in (M.) Defense from their gear already, such that their eHP is crazy high? No thanks.

---

If they can allow me tank with my SAM I am okay with it :3 Please!! :3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

More common? Perhaps. It's been this easy for Warrior and Paladin for awhile now though.

---

No it has not. Its getting easier. Which is why its becoming more common. And if they keep pushing in this direction over the next games the healer role will further be marginalized.

Nah, I like my tanks feeling like tanks and not slightly-less-fragile-DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drakkaelus

Nah, I like my tanks feeling like tanks and not slightly-less-fragile-DPS.

---

I guess "tanks" here means 3x the passive and 5x the in-practice mitigation of non-tanks, two-thirds the damage of DPS, and one-third the healing of Healers in 8-man content and four-fifths the healing of Healers in dungeons?

(Note that in Shadowbringers tanks fell under 60% a DPS's damage and under 15% a healer's healing in 8-man content or under 70% (under 45% for non-WARs) a healer's healing in dungeons. They have, quite objectively, been significantly buffed. Did they just somehow not feel like tanks in Shadowbringers despite that being likewise a massive mitigation buff over their Stormblood capacities?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I guess "tanks" here means 3x the passive and 5x the in-practice mitigation of non-tanks, two-thirds the damage of DPS, and one-third the healing of Healers in 8-man content and four-fifths the healing of Healers in dungeons?

(Note that in Shadowbringers tanks fell under 60% a DPS's damage and under 15% a healer's healing in 8-man content or under 70% (under 45% for non-WARs) a healer's healing in dungeons. They have, quite objectively, been significantly buffed. Did they just somehow not feel like tanks in Shadowbringers despite that being likewise a massive mitigation buff over their Stormblood capacities?)

---

Personally I think the amount of personal sustain they've given Paladin and Gunbreaker is perfect since it has enough of an impact to matter in 4 man content and make things easier on healers for wall to wall pulls, but high enough to where you can't tank a trial boss or raid boss without any assistance from healers

Warrior's always kinda been the king of tanking dungeons, and DRK isn't bad considering it's wholely unchanged, but it's not really something you'd want to run in dungeons because of its dependence on the healer.

IMO if they just added a regen effect to Oblation and also upped the damage reduction to say 15 or 20% it would bring DRK more in line with the other tanks defensively, though tbh I think it would be cooler if they buffed TBN to do something like the usual 25% shield but if it pops it heals you for 25% health

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dogempire

Personally I think the amount of personal sustain they've given Paladin and Gunbreaker is perfect since it has enough of an impact to matter in 4 man content and make things easier on healers for wall to wall pulls, but high enough to where you can't tank a trial boss or raid boss without any assistance from healers

---

Personally, I like a bit more role crossover than we had in Shadowbringers, so that recovery isn't so role-bottlenecked, but that exchange of resources should be significant. If I'm going to heal the party, it should put me at risk (which is why I'm not fond of how powerful Nascent is relative to Bloodwhetting, etc.).

Or to put it another way, we should be able to gain health over time in damage lulls in overgeared casual environments, sure, but we shouldn't be able to pass out healing, too, as effectively free (since we're MORE than capable of keeping ourselves alive even while also keeping the party up). In that regard, yes, GNB and PLD seem a lot closer to what I'd like to see (PLD not quite fitting that model, but at least sacrificing dps to manage emergencies), DRK a little low in sustain, and WAR significantly too high.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I guess "tanks" here means 3x the passive and 5x the in-practice mitigation of non-tanks, two-thirds the damage of DPS, and one-third the healing of Healers in 8-man content and four-fifths the healing of Healers in dungeons?

(Note that in Shadowbringers tanks fell under 60% a DPS's damage and under 15% a healer's healing in 8-man content or under 70% (under 45% for non-WARs) a healer's healing in dungeons. They have, quite objectively, been significantly buffed. Did they just somehow not feel like tanks in Shadowbringers despite that being likewise a massive mitigation buff over their Stormblood capacities?)

---

Should it be taken into consideration that as the most needed/least played role in the game, it would only make sense and be fair to also make tanks the most well-rounded? Even bordering OP?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

Should it be taken into consideration that as the most needed/least played role in the game, it would only make sense and be fair to also make tanks the most well-rounded? Even bordering OP?

---

That would assume that (1) people prefer being OP over being rewarded for their skill and (2) somehow that reducing tank mechanics to actually do and be rewarded for doing well while increasing tank capacity, for a third expansion in a row, would somehow suddenly have the opposite effect from the prior two expansions.

"Yes, let's give them less to do, making it so any skilled player really should switch to DPS for any significant carry potential since a monkey could have nearly their impact, and just buff the hell out of their role to compensate" has become the classical solution, though, yes. (For all the good it's done to help our number of tanks or, along a similar trajectory of change, healers.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That would assume that (1) people prefer being OP over being rewarded for their skill

---

A not insignificant number of people want this very thing, failing to realize that it's ultimately going to result in them burning out and either leaving or swapping to DPS anyway.

Granted, I myself do enjoy not being beholden to healers in dungeons. I think it's a good change, but that level of survivability should not simply be handed to you. You should be have to earn it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That would assume that (1) people prefer being OP over being rewarded for their skill and (2) somehow that reducing tank mechanics to actually do and be rewarded for doing well while increasing tank capacity, for a third expansion in a row, would somehow suddenly have the opposite effect from the prior two expansions.

"Yes, let's give them less to do, making it so any skilled player really should switch to DPS for any significant carry potential since a monkey could have nearly their impact, and just buff the hell out of their role to compensate" has become the classical solution, though, yes. (For all the good it's done to help our number of tanks or, along a similar trajectory of change, healers.)

---

I don't think it has to be assumed that some players will take being OP over needing to be skilled seven days a week. Observation will tell you that. Observation will also point out that despite the [subjective] ease of play, and power tanks have, along with the high rewards it gets through roulettes, mounts, and short queue privilege; it is still the least played role in the game; so clearly there is something else about it that deters more players from taking the role.

Tanking in this game, despite all the changes, always has and always will be PvE from the other side of the field. When you view 3 to 23 other players literally responding to what you're doing with the boss, it can be like looking over the edge of a high cliff. This won't be much of an issue for tank mains, and a lot of what is viewed as ease of play can be tied to the amount of experience they have in the role.

If the definition of being OP in FFXIV is having a surplus of what is required to perform your role, then healers also fall under that category. The more experienced ones also talk about having less to do, so it would seem to me that ease of play is also a circumstance of being OP. Which points me back to my initial statement in this post. Requiring for these roles to have more skill to execute their duties makes the game more difficult to play, basically for everyone as less tanks and healers in the queues means more wait times for those who want to play DPS jobs.

The solution might not be one everyone agrees with, but it is a solution all the same. It might have even worked too well and to the point of being a detriment to players as queue times to get in still average around an hour opposed to a few minutes before the expansion launch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Granted, I myself do enjoy not being beholden to healers in dungeons. I think it's a good change, but that level of survivability should not simply be handed to you. You should be have to earn it.

---

I wouldn't say it's just given to you. Particularly for WAR and PLD since they start @30 and after leveling MRD and GLD respectively. The abilities tanks get and their enhancements are gained through leveling, which for the sake of argument has to be done in PvE content. However, even if you did just give it to someone new, that sustainability is going to be a lot to ask for, and a healer will very much have to still keep a watchful eye on that tank as the sequence of skills a tank uses during pulls can be derped, and lower their ability to survive the pull. Optimizing your toolkit to survive longer will only come with experience, and nothing less.

I am not a tank main, but I do enjoy playing it in most content, so take it from me when I say there is so much that goes into what you guys do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

Should it be taken into consideration that as the most needed/least played role in the game, it would only make sense and be fair to also make tanks the most well-rounded? Even bordering OP?

---

This I'm glad you get it of all people Gem. You play healer and tank don't you? I think people who play healers/tanks especially in DF/PF understand the reason why things are they are imo.

I dunno, I look at designing the tank and healer roles to make their "primary" responsibility as braindead, passive, and unengaging as possible while also refusing to give them more to do elsewhere and I don't see "masterful class designer with their finger on the pulse of their playerbase". I instead see "circlejerk of DPS mains who don't give a flying crap about tanking or healing, and would rather design them to be impossible to fail at so their own DF experience isn't hampered by those weird non-DPS and they can feel 'skilled' on the rare occasion they feel like putting on a tank suit for a roulette".

Tomayto, to-mah-to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

This I'm glad you get it of all people Gem. You play healer and tank don't you? I think people who play healers/tanks especially in DF/PF understand the reason why things are they are imo.

---

I'm sure what he wrote will go over the heads of most here, or they will just ignore it to complain more....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Semirhage

I dunno, I look at designing the tank and healer roles to make their "primary" responsibility as braindead, passive, and unengaging as possible while also refusing to give them more to do elsewhere and I don't see "masterful class designer with their finger on the pulse of their playerbase". I instead see "circlejerk of DPS mains who don't give a flying crap about tanking or healing, and would rather design them to be impossible to fail at so their own DF experience isn't hampered by those weird non-DPS and they can feel 'skilled' on the rare occasion they feel like putting on a tank suit for a roulette".

Tomayto, to-mah-to.

---

Reality is a hard concept to grasp when one is so heavily invested in their own thoughts.
What is braindead for you, probably isn't for many others. Luckily the developers understand that making a game for 90% of the player base is better than for the 10%.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

This won't be much of an issue for tank mains

---

And that's the problem. Dumbing down a role to where there is now little performance gap to maining it will ultimately lead to fewer people maining it once the honeymoon period is over.

Quote:

---

If the definition of being OP in FFXIV is having a surplus of what is required to perform your role, then healers also fall under that category.

---

No, I simply compared its combined passive mitigation, active mitigation, healing, and damage against previous expansions. If those were each balanced, then to now have an extra third the healing and mitigation (and double the passive miti compared to StB) and an extra quarter the damage would be, yes, likely overpowered.

That tanks have heals is fine. That tanks have ally-targetable heals is fine. That tanks have 30 to 70% the healing of a healer atop so much passive mitigation atop more damage than healers that spend not a single offensive GCD... is not. There was no need to just throw added capacity at tanks, all while reducing the skill required to optimize it, and there was every need to give tank mains more mechanics and some decent ceiling height to play with and towards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

This I'm glad you get it of all people Gem. You play healer and tank don't you? I think people who play healers/tanks especially in DF/PF understand the reason why things are they are imo.

---

As a tank main, what I end up doing with my bloated toolkit is play extremely aggressively. I'll eat every mechanic with no concern whatsoever for vuln stacks if it means sacrificing uptime. I can throw away CDs on those AoEs instead since I won't need them anyway. From a healer perspective, I play "how low can you go!" So I hope you're comfortable sitting at 20% even as a DPS because unless there's an upcoming raidwide, I'll heal with oGCDs and nothing else. "What if the DPS eat stuff they shouldn't?" Well... better hope Terra's off cooldown.

I'm being mildly exaggerative here, though I do play pretty aggressively. My point is players in these respective roles put all their focus on damage nowadays because that's literally all they're rewarded for. No one cares if you're a good "healer". They care you're a good hybrid DPS who heals, occasionally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Semirhage

I dunno, I look at designing the tank and healer roles to make their "primary" responsibility as braindead, passive, and unengaging as possible while also refusing to give them more to do elsewhere and I don't see "masterful class designer with their finger on the pulse of their playerbase". I instead see "circlejerk of DPS mains who don't give a flying crap about tanking or healing, and would rather design them to be impossible to fail at so their own DF experience isn't hampered by those weird non-DPS and they can feel 'skilled' on the rare occasion they feel like putting on a tank suit for a roulette".

Tomayto, to-mah-to.

---

To be fair, that's any "holy trinity" design in a nutshell. The moment the devs see no need to balance the roles against each other, they quickly compress to a single primary role and two which are taken merely as compositional slot-tax that someone's stuck filling, at which point needless capacity is somehow given as solution for a lack of opportunity to meaningfully use the kits and gameplay basics those other two roles already have. Precasting heals? Why? Moving the boss? Who needs that?