I'm gonna say something unpopular: I don't like to rush.

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Originally Posted by BadLala

I have a question to tanks that say they can't do more than one pack. How do you know you can't handle more than one pack?

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This doesn't really answer your question of "how do you know", but perhaps I can offer some insight to why some tanks don't like to do big pulls. It may be due to input overload and the resulting discomfort. I rarely have this in FFXIV but I'll use two other games as an example.

Path of Exile is an ARPG where the endgame consists of "maps" - items which open up a playfield with specific parameters when used. Close to the max level EXP gains become very slow, and the general consensus (at least when I last played) is that the best way to get EXP is to do repeated runs of particular types of maps very fast. I tried that once, and while I survived the attempt, I constantly felt like I was not in control of the situation, that at any moment a surprise monster pack could get me killed. So I opted to just spend 7-10 minutes to complete each map in a way that lets me consider each situation and make me feel safe, instead of the 3-4 minute runs that some players do.

Deep Rock Galactic is an FPS where you mine minerals and fight monsters. On higher difficulty levels more enemies appear and they hit harder. If there's enemies on several sides, or I'm in a too tight space, I can no longer process all of the information I'm given to find a safe escape route. Sometimes it's hard to find even a single flying enemy which keeps shooting me. If the difficulty is high enough that usually results in enough damage to kill me. Fortunately the difficulty level is selectable so I can pick one I'm comfortable with.

In FFXIV this sensory overload problem is less severe because all the information about the fight is in front of me and enemies mostly don't appear out of nowhere. Having a lot of enemies using AoE on me can still degrade my performance. My focus shifts to avoiding the AoEs and attacking goes on autopilot. That means I'll mostly use the two basic AoE attacks and forget more fancy attacks with cooldowns. I'm pretty good at avoiding the AoEs though, so as long as the healer and dps are up to the task of keeping me alive and eliminating the enemies it's fine.

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Originally Posted by tdb

Having a lot of enemies using AoE on me can still degrade my performance. My focus shifts to avoiding the AoEs and attacking goes on autopilot. That means I'll mostly use the two basic AoE attacks and forget more fancy attacks with cooldowns. I'm pretty good at avoiding the AoEs though, so as long as the healer and dps are up to the task of keeping me alive and eliminating the enemies it's fine.

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I get what you're saying here but that's kind of a moot point in XIV as a tank - as long as you get off an AoE combo or two (even if there are gaps between your GCDs) and start with a CD you'll be totally fine. You don't really need 100% uptime on a trash pack for things to be going well since there are three other people there who aren't being targeted by so many AoE who will kill the stuff for you.

The enmity changes in ShB have made tanking so easy you actually can just focus on your AoE dodging a lot and you're still doing just fine. And it's still better than doing single pulls since the dps loss of a tank not keeping perfect uptime is a lot less than what you lose from single pulling.

You'll only get comfy with that dodging by doing it for a while too. Holminster still makes me cringe with the AoE on the ground in the pulls between the first and second bosses because they blend in so well. Everyone is just out there trying to do their best (or they should be at least >_>) so try to stay relaxed and know that the majority of parties isn't gonna freak over you getting clipped by an AoE or even a total wipe.

Better to try and fail than to never try at all!

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Originally Posted by Penthea

This I can get behind, though I'm still not fond of the idea of being like "hey tank here's some extra stuff for you to do and you better do it or you're bad!". It really isn't that hard to ASK someone to do something before you just force them to do it. Party chat exists for a reason. Why not use it?

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I think one reason why people don't ask is because they're unsure how someone will act. Asking if a tank could pull more kinda falls in line with asking DPS to AoE, or a Healer to DPS. Sometimes you'll get lucky and either get a "sure thing!" or no response at all, but a clear indication that they're willing to do what you asked... but then there's the chance you'll get the high and mighty privileged "don't tell me what to do!" people and some of us have seen this enough times that it feels like it's better to just throw the person into the deep end of the pool first and then see whether they were okay with it, or they'd prefer it if people didn't do that.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I get what you're saying here but that's kind of a moot point in XIV as a tank - as long as you get off an AoE combo or two (even if there are gaps between your GCDs) and start with a CD you'll be totally fine. You don't really need 100% uptime on a trash pack for things to be going well since there are three other people there who aren't being targeted by so many AoE who will kill the stuff for you.

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Yeah, I can hold aggro no problem. And I haven't had anyone complain about my tanking so far. I've even received all three comms several times. But I know there's elitists out there who think everyone not performing in the top 10% dps is wasting their time. I mean, back in Stormblood some tanks ran dungeons in dps stance and with dps materia because it let them do more damage. A few were even able to pull it off and still hold aggro. That's moot now of course since tank stance has no downsides, but I hope I never have to meet someone who demands me to use their personal meta of the week. And this implies that the suggested strategy is not or only marginally beneficial. I'm happy enough to incorporate advice into my playstyle but if someone wants me to eat AoEs and vuln stacks so they can get a better dps parse, yeah no. And I guess this has gone off on a tangent so I'll stop ranting now.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Choosing not to tank extra mobs pulled by the DPS or Healer can/will cause a wipe (since the DPS and/or Healer are most likely AoEing the first pack, which means they're now on the extra mobs aggro table).

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And that is why it's very rude thing to do to pull more mobs because one player is creating and forcing the situation on the whole party.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I think one reason why people don't ask is because they're unsure how someone will act. Asking if a tank could pull more kinda falls in line with asking DPS to AoE, or a Healer to DPS. Sometimes you'll get lucky and either get a "sure thing!" or no response at all, but a clear indication that they're willing to do what you asked... but then there's the chance you'll get the high and mighty privileged "don't tell me what to do!" people and some of us have seen this enough times that it feels like it's better to just throw the person into the deep end of the pool first and then see whether they were okay with it, or they'd prefer it if people didn't do that.

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You could also just get a calm. "No." and have to accept it.

There is actually a perfect boss that i completely hate that test if you can do or not a big pull. The second boss of amaurot. Idk about you but if you can survive the 15 adds it throws at you then its pretty silly to go back to pulling 1. I will also say that the thing that dictates how fast a dungeon will go is not how much you pull but how good your dps is, even on big pulls if youre a good dps then you can help a tank or a heal who is undergeared by the virtue of they cant kill you if they are dead. That beeing said id prefer if people didnt do small pulls because it literally neuters my contribution as a dps , since my job at single pulls can be done by a trust.

Not only that it cant be stated enough but it is not a playstyle ,because:
1) youre not playing differently
2) you slow down the pace for the rest of the players as well
Unless the reason is being im new or i dont have gear , it doesnt do you any favors , at some point you will meet people who want to go faster , or adds that hit harder, you will have to hit those extra buttons. The thing that worries me the most though is that , this comment wont change your minds and the game will continue to either stay stale on difficulty or worse it will get even easier. Accessibility has not been implemented well this expansion , accessibility shouldnt be make all jobs easier it should be teach the players better.


It all doesnt matter though , when 2 players are talking, how to get a guy who simply pulled more adds , banned and the reaction it gets is meh lets continue our talk instead of reporting for wanting to abuse the report system , then you get a pretty good picture about the mentality of this forum. it isnt about how to improve relationships between the 2 groups so that they can both be satisfied, its about your own egos. Thankfully inside the game people are more patient and understanding , and they just leave if they dont like it.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Idk about you but if you can survive the 15 adds it throws at you then its pretty silly to go back to pulling 1.

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This game is filled with silliness. That's not a bad thing.

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Not only that it cant be stated enough but it is not a playstyle ,because:
1) youre not playing differently

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Not really. There is a chance to single target if the pack is small enough.

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2) you slow down the pace...

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And a different pacing is also a different playstyle.

It's why some people can't get used to FFXIV's longer GCD compared to some other games that also have a GCD. GCD is GCD, but having it be longer is enough of a playstyle difference for some people.

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Originally Posted by linayar

And that is why it's very rude thing to do to pull more mobs because one player is creating and forcing the situation on the whole party.

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Can't say this logic holds out when that could be applied to everything the tank does. Is single pulling not "creating and forcing a situation on the whole party"? Like, I get it, it is rude to try and force things without talking about it but anything the tank does can be construed as forcing a situation - they're the leader.

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Originally Posted by phantomr23

Can't say this logic holds out when that could be applied to everything the tank does. Is single pulling not "creating and forcing a situation on the whole party"? Like, I get it, it is rude to try and force things without talking about it but anything the tank does can be construed as forcing a situation - they're the leader.

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Nope, because you have to single pull to start with anyway, unless you just want to stand at the beginning of the dungeon and never pull.

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Originally Posted by tdb

Yeah, I can hold aggro no problem. And I haven't had anyone complain about my tanking so far. I've even received all three comms several times. But I know there's elitists out there who think everyone not performing in the top 10% dps is wasting their time. I mean, back in Stormblood some tanks ran dungeons in dps stance and with dps materia because it let them do more damage. A few were even able to pull it off and still hold aggro. That's moot now of course since tank stance has no downsides, but I hope I never have to meet someone who demands me to use their personal meta of the week. And this implies that the suggested strategy is not or only marginally beneficial. I'm happy enough to incorporate advice into my playstyle but if someone wants me to eat AoEs and vuln stacks so they can get a better dps parse, yeah no. And I guess this has gone off on a tangent so I'll stop ranting now.

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I don't think these people really exist.

I say this as a player who's static forced them to swap jobs for better kill times, I have some friends who really care about efficiency even more than I do but the only things I've heard them complain about in terms of DF tanks are baby pulls and no mitigation. If your uptime is great enough to hold threat whatever dps the group loses while you dodge is just so completely outclassed by everyone being able to properly AoE down full packs... anyone with a brain in their head won't care.

I'm not saying don't try to do better and improve your uptime on larger pulls but I don't see you catching much flak for having slightly lackluster damage as long as all the stuff is hitting you and you're full (or at the very least double) pulling.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

... but then there's the chance you'll get the high and mighty privileged "don't tell me what to do!" people and some of us have seen this enough times that it feels like it's better to just throw the person into the deep end of the pool first and then see whether they were okay with it, or they'd prefer it if people didn't do that.

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I don't consider this a good reason to just do whatever you want without asking. This argument is essentially "I do something rude first just in case the other person might be rude to me if I ask them about it instead". That's some damn selfish logic.

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Originally Posted by linayar

And that is why it's very rude thing to do to pull more mobs because one player is creating and forcing the situation on the whole party.

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Except the context is different. They're pulling to speed up the run and have no intention of causing a wipe whereas you refusing to pull off them is entirely out of pettiness while knowing full well said pettiness can lead to a wipe.

Even if you subscribe to the belief pulling for the tank is rude. Allowing the party to potential wipe so you can "teach them a lesson" is far worse.

The duty finder was a mistake make party finder the go to tool their I said it feel much better now k bye....!

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Oh yea I totally understand someone's logic when they say "why should I thank someone for something they should be doing?" but it's another thing altogether to get offended when someone does. That's just being spiteful for literally no good reason.

I don't expect to be thanked when I do a good job healing, but it's nice when it does happen. And I like when I see people do the same to others.

Chances are if they say no things wouldn't turn out well anyway if you made that decision for them. At best you would annoy someone. At worst they or others will leave. Neither of those situations is good but obviously one is far worse than the other.

If a person wants something and nothing else is acceptable they should just leave if what they want is impossible whether due to the skill of the group or someone refusing to do something. Or alternatively vote kick. Either way someone not fitting in with what the group wants ends up leaving.

I'm a pretty easy going person but like everyone else there are limits to my patience. If I'm in a situation in which I'm expected to do something I think is unreasonable or what the group wants is something I refuse to give, I leave. I never leave silently though. Like for example if I come across a very undergeared tank who isn't very good that makes every pull a nightmare I say something like "bad gear and bad use of cds, you're making me work very hard for your shortcomings. Find another healer for this, I'm not dealing with it." and then I leave. No need for insults. Just say what's wrong, and go. It's a game. No one has to deal with other people's playstyles if they don't want to.

EDIT: just want to say that if I come across a bad tank with bad gear I do advise them to pull less or use their cds better, and if they refuse or simply cannot do it that's when I choose to leave the group.

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Oh I largely agree, this is why I go for the vote or leave route. Though looking at it from the point of others it also makes sense to push forward and force the tank into a situation of having to deal with larger groups. Since if they do fail it does increases the chances for the vote to go through in theory. If it does not fail and the tank still wants single pulls then any potential good will that would have been granted if they would have asked for permission in theory may go out the window. Since in the eyes of everyone else the desire to not do larger pulls shifts from a lack of ability to simply unwillingness to do so.

It is selfish, but in theoretical practice the cons do not absolutely outweigh the pros depending on how one looks and values each situation. It greatly shifts the burden and alters the expectations of the group depending on the outcome. It sort of falls in line with the post you made in sarcasm, for many players tanks really have no value to some players. Their role is just a given necessity forced on them by the developers. Tanking is a thankless role at times, and one that regrettably be manipulated into playing a certain way fairly easy in the current structure of MMO's today.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Except the context is different. They're pulling to speed up the run and have no intention of causing a wipe whereas you refusing to pull off them is entirely out of pettiness while knowing full well said pettiness can lead to a wipe.

Even if you subscribe to the belief pulling for the tank is rude. Allowing the party to potential wipe so you can "teach them a lesson" is far worse.

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Personally I don't mind wiping if teaches a rude player a lesson. No one should be silently pulling extra packs and just expecting the tank to just take care of it. If you're not mannerly enough to even say anything about it first, then you don't really deserve the tank's protection.

I'm quite disappointed to see how common it is for people to basically say "ya I know doing that is rude but the tank should just be the better person and deal with it". Gosh, putting all the moral weight and responsibility on the tank while the rude people who pull silently are supposed to just get away with it. How lovely. Really glad I'm not in the same data centre as some of you.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Except the context is different. They're pulling to speed up the run and have no intention of causing a wipe whereas you refusing to pull off them is entirely out of pettiness while knowing full well said pettiness can lead to a wipe.

Even if you subscribe to the belief pulling for the tank is rude. Allowing the party to potential wipe so you can "teach them a lesson" is far worse.

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Aren't they pulling more than the tank wants to to essentially teach *them* a lesson? Specifically in how they think the dungeon should be tanked?

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Aren't they pulling more than the tank wants to to essentially teach *them* a lesson? Specifically in how they think the dungeon should be tanked?

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If they continued to pull after politely asking them to stop I'd simply step back and let them tank them.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

If they continued to pull after politely asking them to stop I'd simply step back and let them tank them.

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Agreed. Also, it'd have to be clear they went and pulled, instead of just accidentally positioned wrong and drew aggro.

But if the tank doesn't want to tank more and that has been made clear, then "you spank it, you tank it" is perfectly valid.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Agreed. Also, it'd have to be clear they went and pulled, instead of just accidentally positioned wrong and drew aggro.

But if the tank doesn't want to tank more and that has been made clear, then "you spank it, you tank it" is perfectly valid.

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Interesting thing about you spank it, you tank it. What if the healer makes the choice to heal the one who pulled and gets aggro? I ran into a tank that pulled the tank it, you spank it card on a drg that pulled extra mobs. I was healing, and I do not like the idea of just letting someone die if I can help them. The tank stood their ground after the initial pack of mobs the tank pulled were dead. I ended up tanking the rest as the healer. I get what the tank was trying to do, but in the end their action made my job objectively harder then it would have been if they had just got aggro on the extra pack of mobs. Since I had to juggle between the two sources since I already started to heal the DPS.

I get the mindset behind it, but unless the rest of the group is on board with the tank it really does make life harder for everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Interesting thing about you spank it, you tank it. What if the healer makes the choice to heal the one who pulled and gets aggro? I ran into a tank that pulled the tank it, you spank it card on a drg that pulled extra mobs. I was healing, and I do not like the idea of just letting someone die if I can help them. The tank stood their ground after the initial pack of mobs the tank pulled were dead. I ended up tanking the rest as the healer. I get what the tank was trying to do, but in the end their action made my job objectively harder then it would have been if they had just got aggro on the extra pack of mobs. Since I had to juggle between the two sources since I already started to heal the DPS.

I get the mindset behind it, but unless the rest of the group is on board with the tank it really does make life harder for everyone else.

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Speaking as someone who mains a healer, if healing someone else will kill you then don't heal them. Let them die and you can res them. It's a pretty good rule to have in general. A healer dying can quickly doom the group to wipe. A dead dps can be ressed.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Speaking as someone who mains a healer, if healing someone else will kill you then don't heal them. Let them die and you can res them. It's a pretty good rule to have in general. A healer dying can quickly doom the group to wipe. A dead dps can be ressed.

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True, though not like an extra pack of mobs would be enough to kill me as a healer unless I stopped casting, just made my role harder because the tank refused to get aggro even after the mobs started to attack me. That is my issue with you spank it, you tank it. Just like pulling for someone else is rude, if the tank does not know if the rest of the group is on the same page it just creates a even further headache then if they had just took aggro off the person that pulled extra mobs.

Sure in the grand scheme it was not wipe threatening in this case, and I get it is a weird dynamic to be the tanks actions did make my job as a healer objectively more difficult because they refused to get aggro off someone to teach them a lesson. I get the drg was doing the same, but if we weigh out which one has greater overall impact on the group. One could say him not taking aggro factually inconvenienced two other people in this case because I made the choice to heal the DPS.

Granted their actions would have been neutral if I did not help, but since I had no clue that was their intent the tank I did heal the dps.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Personally I don't mind wiping if teaches a rude player a lesson.

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And that makes you toxic. You're willing to intentionally and maliciously obstruct the entire party because someone does something that upsets you personally.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

No one should be silently pulling extra packs and just expecting the tank to just take care of it. If you're not mannerly enough to even say anything about it first, then you don't really deserve the tank's protection.

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This thread started specifically in reference to endgame roulettes; Mass pulling is the standard so most people don't see a necessity to communicate about it. Sometimes people don't even notice the tank has stopped at the first pack of mobs, and accidentally sprint ahead into the aggro range of the next pack.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I'm quite disappointed to see how common it is for people to basically say "ya I know doing that is rude but the tank should just be the better person and deal with it". Gosh, putting all the moral weight and responsibility on the tank while the rude people who pull silently are supposed to just get away with it. How lovely. Really glad I'm not in the same data centre as some of you.

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It's even more disappointing to see how many people endorse literal, bannable griefing as a justified emotional response to the situation.

The reason the 'Burden' is placed on the tank in this situation is because a single-pulling tank in an endgame roulette is widely considered a detriment to the party; They're playing in a way that is considered obstructive/slow by most players doing endgame roulettes, and (assuming they've cleared the dungeon before), they're doing so out of incompetence.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

And that makes you toxic. You're willing to intentionally and maliciously obstruct the entire party because someone does something that upsets you personally.

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Lol this is hilarious. You are calling me toxic because I won't let someone have their way without even asking anyone about it. Apparently I'm supposed to just let everyone do what they want, change my playstyle to match and if I don't I'm toxic? What I want or what I can do doesn't matter? Only what other people want matters? Buzz off with that hypocrisy. No one exists just to satisfy the silent whims of another player regardless of your role.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

This thread started specifically in reference to endgame roulettes; Mass pulling is the standard so most people don't see a necessity to communicate about it. Sometimes people don't even notice the tank has stopped at the first pack of mobs, and accidentally sprint ahead into the aggro range of the next pack.

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First of all mass pulling does not mean you always pull everything. Secondly I have NEVER seen anyone say "oh didn't notice you stopped moving" to a tank because it's pretty damn obvious considering they're being followed by a bunch of mobs. Not saying it never happens but I would find it hard to believe that it is anything other than rare. A tank pulling multiple packs is not exactly subtle behaviour.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

The reason the 'Burden' is placed on the tank in this situation is because a single-pulling tank in an endgame roulette is widely considered a detriment to the party; They're playing in a way that is considered obstructive/slow by most players doing endgame roulettes, and (assuming they've cleared the dungeon before), they're doing so out of incompetence.

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But people are not talking about only single pack pulls! :D

I have seen plenty of people pull extra packs onto the tank when the tank was already tanking more than one pack.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Lol this is hilarious. You are calling me toxic because I won't let someone have their way without even asking anyone about it. Apparently I'm supposed to just let everyone do what they want, change my playstyle to match and if I don't I'm toxic? What I want or what I can do doesn't matter? Only what other people want matters? Buzz off with that hypocrisy. No one exists just to satisfy the silent whims of another player regardless of your role.

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I'm calling you toxic because you endorsed griefing the entire party. You should try to handle the situation, and then ask them not to do it again. Maliciously obstructing the entire remainder of the party to punish one person is absolutely toxic behaviour.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

First of all mass pulling does not mean you always pull everything. Secondly I have NEVER seen anyone say "oh didn't notice you stopped moving" to a tank because it's pretty damn obvious considering they're being followed by a bunch of mobs. Not saying it never happens but I would find it hard to believe that it is anything other than rare. A tank pulling multiple packs is not exactly subtle behaviour.

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It's not uncommon to outpace the tank if they decide to stop for 2 GCDs to establish threat. I frequently manage to get ahead of the tank while playing WHM.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

But people are not talking about only single pack pulls! :D

I have seen plenty of people pull extra packs onto the tank when the tank was already tanking more than one pack.

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Wall-to-wall is standard in all of the current endgame dungeons, aside from perhaps the final pull of amenesis which most parties seem to communicate about before attempting (and most seem to do it anyway).
Also, people have absolutely been trying to justify single pulling throughout this thread.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

It is easily demonstrable that a relatively slight change in behavior is needed to accommodate 1 more pack. I am not arguing this. My point is that while to us it may seem minimal, it's very possibly beyond someone elses actual limits.

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I do not disagree that there are players with actual limits. But the same solution said to players asking for wall to wall pulls should be said to them as well, which is to form your own party (and now trusts will make that much easier for them as well). Using DF to queue to a dungeon means you should take into consideration the party needs into your game play. No one should force the entire group into one play style or another. And yes, you can just kick the player that doesn't want to or leave if the group doesn't fit your needs.

The reason I asked my question was to see what are the reasons that really do boil down to the skill of a player that the average casual player playing this game can't do. Is there really a reason that can prevent the majority of casual players tanking from doing two packs? If the solution to such reason is something the average tank can easily do, then is doing two packs really a problem? If not, then the players asking for single pulls are in the same category as those asking for wall to wall pulls, which is trying to force the party to adjust to their own needs, since both are at the extreme sides of the player base. So they'll either have to adjust to the party's needs, leave or get kicked. Yes, this is asking them to change their play style, but not to my preference, but to the party's. Be it single pulls or wall to wall pulls. And since, from what I have seen, a lot of groups can handle two packs but not wall to wall pulls, then the chances of having a party asking for two packs is very high.

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Originally Posted by tdb

Having a lot of enemies using AoE on me can still degrade my performance. My focus shifts to avoiding the AoEs and attacking goes on autopilot. That means I'll mostly use the two basic AoE attacks and forget more fancy attacks with cooldowns.

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I would have agreed with this point if the second boss in Amaurot didn't exist. The add phase is a clusterfudge of mobs and AOEs going all over. So if players can handle it, they can handle the AOEs from two packs, which in most cases aren't as many as the ones from the adds phase. But even if we were to go with the issue of degraded performance. It is a sacrifice to be made for the party's needs. A player wanting wall to wall pulls is also sacrificing performance to adjust to smaller packs (to them, their performance is related to how optimal they're utilizing their job skills).

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Originally Posted by Kamome-chan

If you want to pull you play a tank
If you have a problem with the tank not pulling enough well next time you'll queue as one of the for tank jobs.

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So I should queue as a tank and pull wall to wall even if the healer and DPS can't handle it?

If you want to pull you play a tank
If you have a problem with the tank not pulling enough well next time you'll queue as one of the for tank jobs.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I'm calling you toxic because you endorsed griefing the entire party. You should try to handle the situation, and then ask them not to do it again. Maliciously obstructing the entire remainder of the party to punish one person is absolutely toxic behaviour.

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I see and pulling a pack on your own without saying anything is not griefing or toxic behaviour of any kind at all then? Even though it can cause a wipe? This is the act of some angel who only wants to bestow a wonderful combat experience upon us lesser beings who have no right to know what they want to do even if it affects the whole group? Right, sorry for misunderstanding. I'll go back in to my "your wish is my command" box.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

It's not uncommon to outpace the tank if they decide to stop for 2 GCDs to establish threat. I frequently manage to get ahead of the tank while playing WHM.

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Sure yea this happens. Still haven't ever seen anyone not notice that the tanked stopped though.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Wall-to-wall is standard in all of the current endgame dungeons, aside from perhaps the final pull of amenesis which most parties seem to communicate about before attempting (and most seem to do it anyway).
Also, people have absolutely been trying to justify single pulling throughout this thread.

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When I talk about pulling an extra pack...I literally mean exactly that regardless of what is being tanked already. I have experienced quite a few wipes because some dolt decided we had to play the way they wanted but we weren't deserving of any kind of warning. And I have seen this happen when the tank already pulled more than one pack. People who pull extra packs aren't all exceptionally sensible creatures who can't make a bad call. I've even see players with horrifically bad dps pull extra packs.

What I want from people isn't much. I just want someone to say "can you please pull more?" or say "I am going to pull more" instead of saying literally nothing, going off on their own to pull a pack, and expect people to just be okay with them forcing the group to deal with it. But apparently wanting basic manners is too much, and not wanting to give in to the whims of someone who acts as if the group exists only for their desires makes me a toxic person.

So in short in order to not be seen as toxic I have to be a doormat. Got it.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I see and pulling a pack on your own without saying anything is not griefing or toxic behaviour of any kind at all then? Even though it can cause a wipe? This is the act of some angel who only wants to bestow a wonderful combat experience upon us lesser beings who have no right to know what they want to do even if it affects the whole group? Right, sorry for misunderstanding. I'll go back in to my "your wish is my command" box.

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Pulling extra mobs isn't inherently obstructive and is typically done because the person thinks the party is capable of handling the situation and it will increase the efficiency of the run. The intent isn't malicious, they're not doing it with the explicit purpose of harming someone else. Rather, that's what you're doing when you decide to wipe the party because you're upset.

And for the record, I'm not endorsing people pulling for the tank. I'm arguing against literal griefing being an acceptable response.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

When I talk about pulling an extra pack...I literally mean exactly that regardless of what is being tanked already. I have experienced quite a few wipes because some dolt decided we had to play the way they wanted but we weren't deserving of any kind of warning. And I have seen this happen when the tank already pulled more than one pack. People who pull extra packs aren't all exceptionally sensible creatures who can't make a bad call. I've even see players with horrifically bad dps pull extra packs.

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Sure, I've also seen misguided DPS do this. It doesn't mean that maliciously griefing the party is a justified response.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

What I want from people isn't much. I just want someone to say "can you please pull more?" or say "I am going to pull more" instead of saying literally nothing, going off on their own to pull a pack, and expect people to just be okay with them forcing the group to deal with it. But apparently wanting basic manners is too much, and not wanting to give in to the whims of someone who acts as if the group exists only for their desires makes me a toxic person.

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It's okay to dislike people doing this. It's okay to express that you don't like people doing this. It is not okay to intentionally grief the entire party because you're upset about it. If you do everything you can to recover the pull, and you still wipe, ask the DPS to stop or just initiate a votekick. Wanting 'basic manners' is fine. Griefing because someone doesn't have them is not fine. There are ways to address the situation without risking your account.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

So in short in order to not be seen as toxic I have to be a doormat. Got it.

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This is actually a widely held notion that is worthy of criticism on FFXIV, but I don't think it applies to this particular situation.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Lol this is hilarious.

...

I have seen plenty of people pull extra packs onto the tank when the tank was already tanking more than one pack.

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I have run past so many tanks it's not even funny.

There are normal pulls in level cap dungeons. All of them currently are full pulls even though many only consist of two packs. The only debatable area of any level 80 dungeon where I can say I've seen people split things up with any regularity (and by that I mean like more than a handful of times) is the final pull in Anemesis (sp?) Anyder. Everything else is so standardized.

I don't tank experts, I tend to heal them because dead weight healers bother me more than anything, and I've had plenty of stuff aggro on me because a tank decided they wanted to break from the norm and stop at a single pack. I also understand that that is their norm and that if they're only tanking they aren't seeing the pulls other tanks are making. I don't freak out on them for me having threat for a bit... but you bet that I expect they catch on up and grab the things off of me.

Single pulls aren't normal to most players. Some people on the forums may exist in a bubble where they are but that's an extreme about as uncommon as bleeding edge raiders. The majority of people exist in the middle and that level of play is good enough to clear 2+ packs at a time even if it isn't going lightning fast.

Please, anyone, point out where someone claimed that everyone needed Savage+ dps and everything needed to be done in 12 minutes or disband? This is a meme argument and not one that is even humorous. Press your AoE buttons, grab enough to make AoE worth it and get through the content. It isn't hard.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I don't think these people really exist.

I say this as a player who's static forced them to swap jobs for better kill times, I have some friends who really care about efficiency even more than I do but the only things I've heard them complain about in terms of DF tanks are baby pulls and no mitigation. If your uptime is great enough to hold threat whatever dps the group loses while you dodge is just so completely outclassed by everyone being able to properly AoE down full packs... anyone with a brain in their head won't care.

I'm not saying don't try to do better and improve your uptime on larger pulls but I don't see you catching much flak for having slightly lackluster damage as long as all the stuff is hitting you and you're full (or at the very least double) pulling.

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The other day I had a tank in Anamnesis Anyder who at the last boss said "we stay for the run mechanic". I'm not sure what exactly that was about but I strongly suspect it was to increase uptime. Things got a bit confusing and me (healer) and at least one DPS ended up running anyway. The tank offered no comment whatsoever afterwards.

I can easily heal that fight through several vuln stacks, but for me part of the enjoyment of running dungeons is trying to run them perfectly - no vuln stacks taken, no deaths, and no buffs wasted because the boss was about to die when activating it. So you won't see me intentionally taking vuln stacks if I can avoid it.

I don't immediately recall any other times when someone has been worried about uptime in dungeons, so yeah, it's rare. But irrational anxieties are just that, irrational - they don't go away with reasoning.

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Originally Posted by tdb

The other day I had a tank in Anamnesis Anyder who at the last boss said "we stay for the run mechanic". I'm not sure what exactly that was about but I strongly suspect it was to increase uptime. Things got a bit confusing and me (healer) and at least one DPS ended up running anyway. The tank offered no comment whatsoever afterwards.

I can easily heal that fight through several vuln stacks, but for me part of the enjoyment of running dungeons is trying to run them perfectly - no vuln stacks taken, no deaths, and no buffs wasted because the boss was about to die when activating it. So you won't see me intentionally taking vuln stacks if I can avoid it.

I don't immediately recall any other times when someone has been worried about uptime in dungeons, so yeah, it's rare. But irrational anxieties are just that, irrational - they don't go away with reasoning.

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Its common in that dungeon and the Cosmos one, with the tethers, to not run from the boss. The bosses do so little damage and the vuln stacks dont matter, so bosses die faster.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Pulling extra mobs isn't inherently obstructive and is typically done because the person thinks the party is capable of handling the situation and it will increase the efficiency of the run. The intent isn't malicious, they're not doing it with the explicit purpose of harming someone else. Rather, that's what you're doing when you decide to wipe the party because you're upset.

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You are literally trying to paint someone who goes out of their way to step out of their role due to their personal preferences and pulls extra mobs, as some kind of misunderstood combat guru who is merely making those around them fight at their full capabilities. But never really saying "they should at least warn people first". Because for some reason briefly stepping into the tank role means you get to be arrogant enough to make decisions for everyone without even giving them the smallest warning about it.

Is it really so difficult to say "please pull more" or "I will pull more"? Why does pulling extra packs of mobs give people a free pass to be arrogant?

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

And for the record, I'm not endorsing people pulling for the tank. I'm arguing against literal griefing being an acceptable response.

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The thing about this situation is pulling puts players in combat which means no one can initiate a vote to kick, and if they don't stop pulling we cannot kick them. Even more difficult to find a moment to initiate a vote kick if they don't roll on loot. So sorry to burst your bubble but sometimes "griefing" is the only way out of being forced to deal with a player the group no longer wants in the party. Whether that's collectively choosing to do nothing and wait out the loot timers, or causing a wipe so combat ends.

Thankfully most players I come across do stop pulling when asked, but I met a handful who don't and the above happened.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

It's okay to dislike people doing this. It's okay to express that you don't like people doing this. It is not okay to intentionally grief the entire party because you're upset about it. If you do everything you can to recover the pull, and you still wipe, ask the DPS to stop or just initiate a votekick. Wanting 'basic manners' is fine. Griefing because someone doesn't have them is not fine. There are ways to address the situation without risking your account.

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First of all I never said I personally grief people who do something I dislike for whatever reason it is. I just said I'm not always against a wipe to teach someone a lesson. Does this mean I would have had to be the person initiating these wipes? No. the party is made up of four people and any of them can cause a wipe if they really want to.

Secondly:

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I mostly play healers and I still see this happen. If the tank chooses to tank whatever extra was pulled by someone else then I'll heal it. If they don't then I won't...because in the past very often when I did heal the player that pulled the extra untanked pack I got aggro, ended up dying and then we wiped. Better off just letting that one person die. I can res them and we can continue. And before anyone says a tank who doesn't protect their healer is bad, I have seen people get hit really hard within a second of pulling an extra pack and if they don't get topped up often the next hit will just kill them. Not everyone who pulls extra packs knows how to kite and kiting isn't much help if the mobs have ranged abilities.

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These are hardly the words of someone who makes a habit of intentionally griefing. I'm actually a pretty patient person when it comes to standard and quality of performance in normal mode. My post history is littered with me defending this stance, some of these posts in this thread. Like most players I follow the tank's lead. If they take on the extra pack, then I will too. Even if I know it is doomed to fail I will do my best. I try not to touch the extra pack if the tank doesn't because like most players...I don't want to die. Never mind how dying as a healer can quickly cause a wipe in that situation. But none of this means I actually agree with silently pulling when you're not a tank.

I am the sort of person who is strongly against griefing. I have kicked players from my fc who engaged in this behaviour. But if a person abuses the limitations of the vote kick system by keeping the party in combat and not rolling on loot, then they're not really giving the party much of a choice are they? In fact what they're doing is intentional griefing. If you give players only two choices: obey your demands or grief you back so they can be rid of you...well it's only your fault if they choose a decision you don't like.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Interesting thing about you spank it, you tank it. What if the healer makes the choice to heal the one who pulled and gets aggro? I ran into a tank that pulled the tank it, you spank it card on a drg that pulled extra mobs. I was healing, and I do not like the idea of just letting someone die if I can help them. The tank stood their ground after the initial pack of mobs the tank pulled were dead. I ended up tanking the rest as the healer. I get what the tank was trying to do, but in the end their action made my job objectively harder then it would have been if they had just got aggro on the extra pack of mobs. Since I had to juggle between the two sources since I already started to heal the DPS.

I get the mindset behind it, but unless the rest of the group is on board with the tank it really does make life harder for everyone else.

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If the healer decided to fold, I'd protect them. I'd even deal with the extra mobs the other player brought in without this hypothetical healer pulling aggro --- just after the stuff I was already dealing with was dead.

And sometimes, I fold and enable this behavior by just tanking the stuff anyway. It really depends on just how rude the person is being about it and how annoyed I am vs how much I want the dungeon to just be over. They're still wrong to do it, though.

I know I can handle most wall-to-wall pulls. I'll do them if I feel like it and/or people ask me. But that's now. I wasn't always good or confident enough in tanking to do that, and unsolicited prodding from other people about it could be mildly annoying. People taking it upon themselves to pull for me without asking was very annoying.

If its duty finder, you should live with pacing yourself to the lowest common denominator, the weakest link in the rando group chain. Cus that's what you are signing up for. Low skill can't throttle up, but high skill can throttle down. And should, even in dailies, if it becomes apparent that you have others who want to be slower than you in a party. You want to control the pace, your options are: 1) ask politely while being prepared for the answer to maybe be no, 2) queue as tank and check with your healer, 3) preform a party with other speed-minded individuals, 4) do trusts. "pull things in without asking cus the tank is going too slow" isn't really one of the above. You might get a group that won't complain, especially if it works, but you might also piss off your team and be left to fend for yourself and that's the risk you take trying to hotdog it. /shrug

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

justify single pulling throughout this thread.

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That's cus single pulling is justifiable, if that's what that player can manage. If only half a wall-to-wall is all they want to do, they can also do that.

You don't like it, say so, get another group, or queue as tank yourself. Be the tank you want to see.

The only way a tank can have trouble with wall to wall pulls is if their gear ilevel is too low for it (and they don't use AoE's at all, or their CD's), their Healer is a Cure bot and/or the DPS choose not to do AoE's for whatever reason. Otherwise doing wall to wall pulls is pretty easy as you just need to do an AoE (or two) and then dash off to the next pack and then cycle through CD's. If the pull is really big, use the invuln skill. You're never going to use it for bosses.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

That's cus single pulling is justifiable, if that's what that player can manage. If only half a wall-to-wall is all they want to do, they can also do that.

You don't like it, say so, get another group, or queue as tank yourself. Be the tank you want to see.

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I tank my roulettes 90% of the time. My experience doing so is exactly why I find it laughable that people are trying to justify single-pulling endgame instances.
The level of execution needed on the tanks part to do big pulls legitimately boils down to pressing 3 buttons. I choose to believe most people are capable of doing that.

I can't even think of the last time I was forced to single-pull in an endgame roulette. Happens in leveling dungeons sometimes though, and it's almost always because of low DPS in Holminster or Dohn Mehg >.>;

Only recently got my first lvl 80 tank and honestly I don't even know why people would do small pulls. It makes no difference if it's 1 pack or 2 packs, you only need to press like 3 dps skills and make sure you use your defensive cooldowns one after another and things die quick if everyone is clicking their buttons. Mobs don't even do that much damage, you only waste everyone's cds if you pull small.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I tank my roulettes 90% of the time. My experience doing so is exactly why I find it laughable that people are trying to justify single-pulling endgame instances.
The level of execution needed on the tanks part to do big pulls legitimately boils down to pressing 3 buttons. I choose to believe most people are capable of doing that.

I can't even think of the last time I was forced to single-pull in an endgame roulette. Happens in leveling dungeons sometimes though, and it's almost always because of low DPS in Holminster or Dohn Mehg >.>;

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Then, congrats. You aren't who I'm talking about when I say "That's cus single pulling is justifiable, if that's what that player can manage.". Other people are.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Then, congrats. You aren't who I'm talking about when I say "That's cus single pulling is justifiable, if that's what that player can manage.". Other people are.

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What justifiable reasons would you say there are for being unable to press 2/3 AOE buttons and 1 cooldown every 20 or so seconds beyond the obvious severe disabilities?

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Originally Posted by phantomr23

What justifiable reasons would you say there are for being unable to press 2/3 AOE buttons and 1 cooldown every 20 or so seconds beyond the obvious severe disabilities?

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I wasn't justifying not pressing AOE buttons. I was justifying pulling single packs. And the justification for single packs is "cus they want to".

As long as the dungeon gets cleared, it doesn't matter.