You pull you tank question.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Ah yes, maybe I should throw you into a different game besides Final Fantasy, put you in the tank role, and immediately I'm going to force you to tank things in the hardest method possible day 1, with no knowledge of content structure, future mechanics in instance, no knowledge of healer kits and cooldowns, no open world practice for your rotation, and see how flawlessly you run. But if you die, it's a you problem right?

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I didn't even read all of the other posts, but we're clearly talking about XIV.
In XIV, your aoe rotation is 3 buttons, maybe 4/5 with the one ogcd damage button that you press once a minute. You can set up your hotbar and practice this on a dummy for 30 seconds.
Then you just also assign your mitigations and press them in a random order, one after the other.
Even if you only hit 1-1-1, you generate so much aggro with modern tanks you'll probably be fine. If you miss one of the mits or misclick it, you're fine.
There are games where it's not so simple, but for XIV, in dungeons, it really is. You don't need to be "flawless", it's not that challenging...

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Ah yes, maybe I should throw you into a different game besides Final Fantasy, put you in the tank role, and immediately I'm going to force you to tank things in the hardest method possible day 1, with no knowledge of content structure, future mechanics in instance, no knowledge of healer kits and cooldowns, no open world practice for your rotation, and see how flawlessly you run. But if you die, it's a you problem right?

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Unless you've job skipped and thus played stupid games to win stupid prizes, the new sprout tank is in Satasha after 15 levels of MSQ, which literally gets easier if you wall pull because of the clams. By the end of ARR and arguably by Brayflox you should have the baseline competency to pull two packs (the average "wall pull" is somewhere around 1.5 packs lol).

But okay, let's say you haven't developed that competency. DPS/Healer pulls ahead, you do your job and pull aggro off them. If you wipe have a chat about how to improve and achieve baseline competency. Having a tantrum and saying "YPYT" is literally a ToS violation and stunts your own growth as a tank.

As a person who has, and still does, enjoy tanking… stop being a pansy in e
Easy content if someone else pulls. In harder content, sure and mainly because it throws people’s timers off.

Other than that you have no real excuse other than your attempt to power trip. If you can’t handle being a tank, then stop playing the class. The role is easy. It just has a large impact if you suck.

the damage dealers role is to do damage. to do damage to speed up the dungeon. the trial.
if your not taking agro, your making more work for everyone else. its like saying i dont want to do my part, because someone slapped it before i could slap it.
if your not pulling as much as you can, your being disrespectful. again, their role is damage, as fast as possible.

if your one pulling, your presense as a tank is not even required. if your wiping, yeah you have good reason but on a clean pull...?

i say this as a tank main, stop treating dps players like shit. their here to have fun too.

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Originally Posted by WeakestZenosEnjoyer

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

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Your mitigation rotating is going to change depending on your job, your gear available, your abilities unlocked inside of said content, the capability of the healer, and the dps in instance. If you pull every instance at every level on every job the exact same like a bot, you're trash. There's no way in hell, you'd be a DRK in low to medium content and try to have a similar rotation and pull path as a WAR. I'm not going to be a low level PLD with a sprout healer and act like I'm a WAR at 90-100 with a Ultimate Title WHM/AST. There are a lot of variance and adjustments that come up and if you shrug off that variance telling everyone in your party to adjust and be good so you can be a bot and run your rotation and pull the exact same, you're the problem. There are going to be differences in grouping, which mitigation rotating takes priority depending on the difficulty of adds in the next set, whether or not you decide to use CC on various adds in said pact, how many seconds you spread between your mitigations instead of running them back to back with 0 downtime, when and how you use invul during pulls (PLD use is going to be different than GNB and different than DRK, bad GNB use often can conflict with WHM if not done properly). Are these going to be factors in EVERY single run, no. But these situations crop up. Rotating your mitigation brain off is going to inevitably get you killed, especially if you're in low dps runs where the adds aren't dead but you've ran through all your cooldowns. If you have a WHM swearing religiously on Cure 1 and not using Cure 2, you're not going to tank the same. If you have an astro/whm that isn't using HoT's, you're not going to tank the same. If you have a sprout SCH with no gauge (start of the dungeon), you're not going to tank the same. How you tank/heal in Satasha is not going to be the same as how you tank/heal in Stone Vigil, and the wall pull average stress is going to vary each expansion and even inside of the same expansion as some mobs hit noticeably harder than others even if the same add count is used. Thinking you can run into any content, do some brain dead minimum, and you're officially at "well I've done my job" is what actually stunts your growth as a tank. A good tank is able to carry inside of content and not just be a Trust NPC performing a skill check on the party. Being able to adjust to any party, any pull, any content is where the tank learning exists. You do not look up tank guides and they only have a 2min video saying "yes, push these 4 buttons in order and hit these 2 aoe buttons, and you're done".

I am never going to be an advocate for someone creating a problem, and then wanting to have a nice chat afterward, after they've killed everyone, about how to fix the problem they created. Backwards logic is the definition of compelling gameplay that /is/ a violation of ToS.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Ah yes, maybe I should throw you into a different game besides Final Fantasy, put you in the tank role, and immediately I'm going to force you to tank things in the hardest method possible day 1, with no knowledge of content structure, future mechanics in instance, no knowledge of healer kits and cooldowns, no open world practice for your rotation, and see how flawlessly you run. But if you die, it's a you problem right?

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The fact you need to go outside FFXIV to make your point says everything. You can't argue about how things are done here. And even then, your example is, simply put, hogwash:

- No one begins doing multiplayer content in a MMO unless it's a purely PvP. This game is the furthest from being an exception. Players get plenty of time to learn and plenty of resources.
- In MMO, we get time to understand the basics before running the easier parts of multiplayer instances- If, by that time, I haven't captured the essentials of tanking BEFORE jumping in... yes. It's on me. Being a newcomer doesn't excuse me from trying to learn and improve.
- If, by endgame, I don't have an understanding of the tanking mechanics or how the instances work, yes, it IS on me. I have all the leveling process to understand how my class works, how the game mechanics works and, if I'm still confused, to read a guide in order to understand what I should or shouldn't do. Each player has the final responsibility on what they learn or don't. If you refuse to learn, you're burdening other players for no reason.
- If we die, we die. Most cases (including FFXIV) we just run back to where we die, and try again. If I fucked up, I apologize and tell I'm new and learning. Do I expect them to slow down for me? No. I take what advice I get and try to do better.. The other players' responsibility is to understand not to flame me for mistakes out of ignorance but to offer advice so as to improve the run.

And if the run in FFXIV is going badly and I identify the problem for it (for example, a WHM trying to proc free cure), I'm not going to slow down just to accomodate someone who's not playing right. I tell them what's wrong and ask what they have to do in order to improve. And that's not creating a problem. That's solving one. And if whoever is being a deadweight dismisses the advice and/or gives attitude, that's an easy dismiss vote. If someone is unwilling to improve and pull their own weight, no one else should allow themselves to pull if for them.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

The fact you need to go outside FFXIV to make your point says everything. You can't argue about how things are done here. And even then, your example is, simply put, hogwash:
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1) There is no stress in open world MSQ to even have to care about using mitigation. You can go through the entirety of MSQ in the game including Dawntrail, without using mitigation in open world and inside of solo duties. Mitigation and the output and cooldowns of other jobs are not things you learn before going into multiplayer content. Even for Trusts, the NPC's have infinite mana/abilities and aren't realistic in their healing output at all compared to what you'd see with other players in a live situation.

2) No, you don't. Because that's where FF14 is even worse than other games, since it has jobs that start at later levels. If someone unlocks DRK and decides to level with pvp, they can be 40-50+, but may decide to run roulettes with their friends and be inside of dungeon content pve for their first time despite their level. Same goes for GNB, same goes for people who get advised to skip MSQ and need to buy a job skip with it to even do the story. Most aren't going to buy a MSQ skip on their main and then manually dungeon spam all the way up unless they're told to.

3) That's /if/ we're talking end game. Most YPYT happens in lower content where the entire purpose is people learning. Not that they should've already learned. Not to mention if they had friends carrying them with massive heals and damage output, they're not going to be used to pug situations. Same way I saw someone on twitter getting triggered because raid buffs were misalligned in pug situations. How you allign buffs and burst/handle openings inside of static/savage/ultimate is not the same as pugs. Experience in one does not translate to experience in the other.

4) This is another issue that people have. WHAT **YOU** DO DOES NOT MATTER. THE ENTIRETY OF THE TANKING POPULATION IS NOT YOU. HOW YOU HANDLE SITUATIONS IS NOT IMPORTANT. People do not have the same input types, they do not have the same pve experience, they do not have the same internet connection, they do not have the same goals for content, they do not have the same mental health as others, they do not have the same priorities as others. You cannot pidgeon-hole an entire role of a game into "you need to run content this 1 way for this 1 reason with this 1 mindstate". Period.

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Originally Posted by Karkarov

No offense but if they were smart they wouldn't be pulling mobs to begin with. The tanks who think this doesn't matter must be the laziest players of all time. If you are doing your job right people should be having to work to actually be in front of you to pull before you do. Do your jobs as the tank and pull the mobs, it just makes everything easier and smoother when the tank pulls. Only in FF14 would a legit group negative behavior be called "ok" because of "tank ego".

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itake plenty of offense, if a ddps zooms ahead with en avant, backflip, whatever man.

im not goign to through a fit in the middle of the dungeon if the dps is really impatient

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Your mitigation rotating is going to change depending on your job, your gear available, your abilities unlocked inside of said content, the capability of the healer, and the dps in instance. If you pull every instance at every level on every job the exact same like a bot, you're trash. There's no way in hell, you'd be a DRK in low to medium content and try to have a similar rotation and pull path as a WAR. I'm not going to be a low level PLD with a sprout healer and act like I'm a WAR at 90-100 with a Ultimate Title WHM/AST. There are a lot of variance and adjustments that come up and if you shrug off that variance telling everyone in your party to adjust and be good so you can be a bot and run your rotation and pull the exact same, you're the problem. There are going to be differences in grouping, which mitigation rotating takes priority depending on the difficulty of adds in the next set, whether or not you decide to use CC on various adds in said pact, how many seconds you spread between your mitigations instead of running them back to back with 0 downtime, when and how you use invul during pulls (PLD use is going to be different than GNB and different than DRK, blah blah blah nonsense too long character limit

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I've played almost every dungeon as every tank and every healer. They all play almost exactly the same even for low level dungeons. Just cycle your mit and do AoEs.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by noelregnard

I've played almost every dungeon as every tank and every healer. They all play almost exactly the same even for low level dungeons. Just cycle your mit and do AoEs.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

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Oh yeah? How confident in that statement are you? Care to wager 25mil that if you spend 9 hours running leveling roullette while rainbowing tank jobs, that you can run the exact same mitigation rotation regardless of the dungeon and finish with 0 avoidable deaths at the end of the day?

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Oh yeah? How confident in that statement are you? Care to wager 25mil that if you spend 9 hours running leveling roullette while rainbowing tank jobs, that you can run the exact same mitigation rotation regardless of the dungeon and finish with 0 avoidable deaths at the end of the day?

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LMAO this is hysterical. I've leveled all tanks to cap multiple times, on multiple characters. I've done savage on multiple tanks. I've done countless dungeon runs as different tanks with no healer. I have nothing to prove to you. If tanking is too complicated for you then I can only say skill issue ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by noelregnard

LMAO this is hysterical. I've leveled all tanks to cap multiple times, on multiple characters. I've done savage on multiple tanks. I've done countless dungeon runs as different tanks with no healer. I have nothing to prove to you. If tanking is too complicated for you then I can only say skill issue ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Ah, the savage and multi-ranker that doesn't want a free 25Mil. Sounds like talking out of your butt on the forums and don't want to prove what you're preaching. Because you know 1 bad healer or 1 bad set of dps would you have laid out while I snatched your wallet. Even Xenosys says when he brain off's as tank, he dies in pug runs and then adjusts afterward and he's a rank 1 tank.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Ah, the savage and multi-ranker that doesn't want a free 25Mil. Sounds like talking out of your butt on the forums and don't want to prove what you're preaching. Because you know 1 bad healer or 1 bad set of dps would you have laid out while I snatched your wallet.

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Ah yes sure let's go with that. Imagine having different party members somehow change the amount of mitigation buttons you have on tank lmao

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Originally Posted by noelregnard

Ah yes sure let's go with that. Imagine having different party members somehow change the amount of mitigation buttons you have on tank lmao

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Ah, thanks for proving my point. The fact you consider mitigation rotating only involving a set of amount of buttons proves my point. You're just a trust NPC. You don't play with the order of your mitigation, the strength of the adds damage and survival time, or the timing between them as a consideration in gameplay. You just braindead 1-2-3 and deal with the consequences afterward.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

1.

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1) The only reasons for not using mitigations in early contents are either because you've been doing single pulls and, thus, facing no stress at all. Which reinforces the point of forcing bigger pulls because, as you literally put it, they don't learn to use mitigations until they are put under the pressure to do so.

2) You do realize both scenarios happened because of the player decision, right? It's the DRK who decided to level with PvP and only learn to PvE later completely oblivious on how the job works. Same for the GNB and, doubly so for the MSQ skipper. You decide to go in blind and clueless, you're the one who has to deal with the consequences because what happens for your ignorance is your own responsibility. And the GNB literally have a scenario to literally give you the ropes on how the job works.

3) Endgame starts at level 50. Because that was the first endgame there was and that's where you can start unlocking raids and EX trials. That's half the current level. And, even before 50, you get plenty of dungeons where to learn to play your class and, barring Stone Vigil or Aurum Vale, they're all EASY. And plenty of chances to fail, receive advice and improve come with those dungeons.

4) No, this is an issue you and a few other spoiled players have. Because what I say it's not just what I want to do but also the consensus among players on how things are done. And this something I do only because I've been learning the very beginning of my FFXIV, when I played with only 10 fps during ARR (when ping was horrible) while facing visual and auditive impairment (and still facing it). So you can spare jme the "Ooooh you don't know everyone's circumstances" because, big news, I do have my own. And people who do like me also do. So... yeah. Being a newcomer never excuses you from learning the knowhow. NEVER. W2W are the norm. Not the preference. And the sooner anyone learns that, the better for everyone including the newcomer. No matter how many "periods" you try to put on it.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Ah, thanks for proving my point. The fact you consider mitigation rotating only involving a set of amount of buttons proves my point. You're just a trust NPC. You don't play with the order of your mitigation, the strength of the adds damage and survival time, or the timing between them as a consideration in gameplay. You just braindead 1-2-3 and deal with the consequences afterward.

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The only content where you 100% have to pay attention at all instances to the order of the mitigations in order not to wipe a party is Savage during early prog and Ultimate. And the magnitude of the damages and consequences are night and day compared to a leveling dungeons because, there, an unmitigated tankbuster WILL kill you and set a whole run back to the very start. They are completely different universes. So, other than timing the CD (which boils down to pretty much using them when you've got the whole pull together) none of the things you mention matters at all in dungeons. So spare us the fluff because any reasonable tank knows leveling dungeons are the furthest from being hard to tank, other that Stone Vigil or Aurum Vales, and both cases have nothing to do with tank or healer individual performances.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

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1) I like how I talk about MSQ and you bring up early multiplayer content, and then ramble about something I didn't even say.

2) It is player decision, but guess what? It was Square Enix who even made that choice to allow it. It's a dev approved player decision. GNB and DRK could just as easily start at level 1 and not get experience at all from PvP. And there is no solo scenario/instance in the game that forces you to use the entire kit of your job. "Give you the ropes on how the job works" is not a thing. You literally basic 1-2-3 through everything. You have free HoT's given to you. And you have a very easy button in most situations. Even the Hall of Novice is /optional/ content. The game never forces you to learn anything, which is why veteran players had an issue with the tutorial system in this game because nowhere does it teach foundational strategies and ideologies past a Pre-K level.

3) "Endgame starts at level 50" You mean the content that has 1/3rd of the mechanics of the game introduced by that point? Are we talking about the Ultimate that has a challenge for, what was it, 50-100+ deaths while still clearing? We're talking about the content that dropped in difficulty so hard they had to invent Unreal to bring back even relevance of not being a braindead cakewalk? We're talking about Moogles and other instances they nerfed for people to be able to finish it easily, completely changing mechanics inside of instances, most jobs don't even have their core finished out kit wise, and you still consider that end game?

4) If they were the norm and not the preference, we wouldn't have had an entire expansion the devs removed wall to wall pulls because they hated the community pushing that direction.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Ah, thanks for proving my point. The fact you consider mitigation rotating only involving a set of amount of buttons proves my point. You're just a trust NPC. You don't play with the order of your mitigation, the strength of the adds damage and survival time, or the timing between them as a consideration in gameplay. You just braindead 1-2-3 and deal with the consequences afterward.

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Imagine thinking the order of mitigation buttons pressed matters in dungeons ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

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And the magnitude of the damages and consequences are night and day

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Your rotation when you're a WAR with raw intuition that can full health you on adds, is night and day compared to other tanks.
Your rotation as a DRK where you have an entire physical damage mitigation missing inside of your kit, is night and day compared to other tanks.
When certain jobs you queue with only have single target and don't have aoe in their kit yet, it is night and day compared to other runs.
When you don't have a WHM Cure 2 healing you for 60% of your health in 1 cast anymore, it is night and day compared to other runs.
I'm not fixing to play this game and list out every night and day in dungeon runs that happens.

Like I said. If a Rank 1 tank, who has cleared every ultimate says he can't braindead rotate mitigation in pugs without dying, I'm not having this talk with randoms on the forums if you're not putting money up.

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Originally Posted by noelregnard

Imagine thinking the order of mitigation buttons pressed matters in dungeons ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Go run Stone Vigil as a GNB with a sprout WHM using Cure 1 and do the first wall to wall pull with Reprisal first, and then Arm's Length and come back to me.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Your rotation when you're a WAR with raw intuition that can full health you on adds, is night and day compared to other tanks.
Your rotation as a DRK where you have an entire physical damage mitigation missing inside of your kit, is night and day compared to other tanks.
When certain jobs you queue with only have single target and don't have aoe in their kit yet, it is night and day compared to other runs.
When you don't have a WHM Cure 2 healing you for 60% of your health in 1 cast anymore, it is night and day compared to other runs.
I'm not fixing to play this game and list out every night and day in dungeon runs that happens.

Like I said. If a Rank 1 tank, who has cleared every ultimate says he can't braindead rotate mitigation in pugs without dying, I'm not having this talk with randoms on the forums if you're not putting money up.

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Damn I guess all of my friends who play tanks and I are better than this self-proclaimed rank 1 tank!

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Go run Stone Vigil as a GNB with a sprout WHM using Cure 1 and do the first wall to wall pull with Reprisal first, and then Arm's Length and come back to me.

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LMAO I can think of stupid scenarios too

Still have no idea how any of this nonsense justifies YPYT but please continue, this is so funny

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Originally Posted by noelregnard

LMAO I can think of stupid scenarios too

Still have no idea how any of this nonsense justifies YPYT but please continue, this is so funny

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By stupid scenarios, you mean things that would actually happen? You think people have to argue on the forums and in discords about Cure1/2 just for their health and not because Cure 1 use is common? You think having a WHM that's heal botting and not using Holy is an unrealistic situation? You think healers not knowing to keep HoT's up at all times is unrealistic? There's a lot of playstyles you run into if you actually pugged dungeons a lot, and which playstyle you have, you wouldn't know until after you already pulled. But because you're a trust NPC and don't care about mitigation order, you wouldn't have a problem doing a wall to wall on the first pull of any dungeon (Stone Vigil included) completely blind on your healer's capabilities and using your weakest mitigation first on the one of the hardest hitting pulls inside of the leveling process within the first 2-3 expansions.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

By stupid scenarios, you mean things that would actually happen? You think people have to argue on the forums and in discords about Cure1/2 just for their health and not because Cure 1 use is common? You think having a WHM that's heal botting and not using Holy is an unrealistic situation? You think healers not knowing to keep HoT's up at all times is unrealistic? There's a lot of playstyles you run into if you actually pugged dungeons a lot, and which playstyle you have, you wouldn't know until after you already pulled. But because you're a trust NPC and don't care about mitigation order, you wouldn't have a problem doing a wall to wall on the first pull of any dungeon (Stone Vigil included) completely blind on your healer's capabilities and using your weakest mitigation first on the one of the hardest hitting pulls inside of the leveling process within the first 2-3 expansions.

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First of all I know how to cycle my mitigations so your idea of me using only reprisal for a wall to wall pull is stupid. Second of all, yes things may happen, people may die, party may wipe. So? What's your point? None of that affects the number of buttons you have nor their cooldowns. Do you even know how to cycle your mitigations? And none of this justifies YPYT either so all of this crap is completely pointless.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

h.

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1) In case you've magically forgotten, MSQ forces you to go through 9 dungeons and 4 proto-trials for 2.0 story, alone. Yes, you are to tackle multiplayer content. And you're the one hiding behind that excuse so... yeah, my point stands quite strongly actually.
2) Now that trying to appeal to "what everyone does" doesn't work for you, you're hiding behind "what the dev" allows. Allow me to put you out of your misery. Devs are not the comunity. What the comunity agrees and what the devs think are NOT the same. And if you asked many of us, you would find that few players look kindly on the skip potions not having any measure to ensure the skippers do so completely oblivious or that pèople just refuses to make use of what tools there are, either in-game or from outside sources. And GNB scenario does show you the ropes because they DO tell you what your mitigations are, to activate your stance and to use your combo, including cardridge combo during it's course. They do teach you the ropes. And this is why me and many other people bother speaking up when someone messes up so, even if they didn't go through all those resources, they do get the chance to learn.

3) The amount of things you've pulled out of your ass is an hilarious demonstration on your ignorance of what's there at level 50. Because half of those things are not from there to begin with and the other half you don't really know. The fact you're talking about the Moogle nerf shows you only synched for Hard and not for Extreme. And I would need a hundred of hands to count the amount of times newbies unassumedly queue in on an EX trial from ARR and, unsurprisingly, they wipe the moment they ignore the filled in mentors advice because, for being a braindead cakewalk, sprouts sure are usually clueless to do simple stuff such as "not moving while floor slippery during Shiva Ex" resulting in countless of sprouts touching the wall of "turning into an ice pop". And all roles get the minimum tools needed for each to perform their jobs: role actions, tanks get also the 30% mits and their invulns, healers get at least one GCD, even if WHM's is Bene, and DPS get their base rotation and, save for a notable exception, some more. More than enough to get a grasp on how game plays. And if synched EX runs tell anything is that you can't just plow though every content through brute force, since every single one has a mechanic that ensures wipes if people isn't trying to pay attention to the mechanics. Every. Single. One. And this one is an easy tell for someone who gets them every now and then on mentor roulettes and has to run the sprouts through the mechanics. And, while I won't elaborate much, I could build a strong case on how learning many of the EXes mechanic is useful for future reference, it has no bearing on the current argument.

4) Devs also think healer design is ok and regaled us with this xpac's MSQ. Does the community agree? Not really. So.. yeah, I could wipe my arse with the dev intentions, honestly. The fact the community still walls to wall as far as they can even after the devs tried to impose walls is proof enough to tell you how little dev's opinion on how the game should be played matter.

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Originally Posted by noelregnard

First of all I know how to cycle my mitigations so your idea of me using only reprisal for a wall to wall pull is stupid. Second of all, yes things may happen, people may die, party may wipe. So? What's your point? None of that affects the number of buttons you have nor their cooldowns. Do you even know how to cycle your mitigations? And none of this justifies YPYT either so all of this crap is completely pointless.

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1) You're the one that said order didn't matter. Now you're backpeddling out of that opinion when there's a blatant death situation for the wrong decision of order.

2) If you died, that means you failed to understand the ability of your kit as well as your group's. If you don't have analytical skills for what you can and can't handle and have variance available in your playstyle, you're not a good player. Either you:
A) only do what you're told by someone else who likely didn't want to bother you with nuance and detail for your sake and theirs
B) you're brain off and don't care about dying and would do the same dead-pending pull over and over again with no adjustment
or
C) pull a BLM saying "healer adjust" and likely get kicked.

3) Clearly I know how to mitigate cooldowns if I gave an example off the top of my head for a mitigation situation that would result in a death that you didn't consider previously. Stone Vigil is just one tank check instance. Aurum Vale, Bardam's Mettle, Dohn Mheg, Mt. Gulg will all severely punish a tank that doesn't know what they're doing while trying to run wall to wall if they don't have a good healer carrying them. I could tell you never tried to teach a new tank how to do pulls, how to rotate mitigation, how to push themselves in a safe way without wiping the group. No tank mentor would mention only doing wall to wall pulls with the same mitigation rotation every single run unless there were drastic restrictions such as last expansion dungeons only with competent healers and dps's. There's always stipulations and context.

and that is why:

4) Your opinion on YPYT is invalid. If you are a Trust NPC because that's how your friends taught you to be, you don't get to speak on things that affect the enjoyment of the game from other tanks who are trying to optimize or are trying not to get yelled at/deal with anxiety/or feeling like a nuisance to their party. You weren't taught various things or didn't experience them. And you don't care about other people's experiences. You come off as a male version of Wuk Lamat, letting everyone else do the actual work while you do the bare minimum of just being around and hitting buttons to think you're contributing and getting achievements so you think everything you're doing is working. When in reality, you're still just as naive as when you started, but because you got a few pats on the back, you think your opinion matters and you're ready to lead and have discussions about community expectations.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Your rotation when you're a WAR with raw intuition that can full health you on adds, is night and day compared to other tanks.
Your rotation as a DRK where you have an entire physical damage mitigation missing inside of your kit, is night and day compared to other tanks.
When certain jobs you queue with only have single target and don't have aoe in their kit yet, it is night and day compared to other runs.
When you don't have a WHM Cure 2 healing you for 60% of your health in 1 cast anymore, it is night and day compared to other runs.
I'm not fixing to play this game and list out every night and day in dungeon runs that happens.

Like I said. If a Rank 1 tank, who has cleared every ultimate says he can't braindead rotate mitigation in pugs without dying, I'm not having this talk with randoms on the forums if you're not putting money up.

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It's not night and day because it's still easy and very forgiving compared to what. And if it feels so daunting for you I'll break it for ya: it's pretty much your own problem. It's funny you accuse me of this kind of fallacy yet you also recur to uit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Go run Stone Vigil as a GNB with a sprout WHM using Cure 1 and do the first wall to wall pull with Reprisal first, and then Arm's Length and come back to me.

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Easy peasy. Just make sure the WHM uses cure 2. Either the sprout you get does it or, should the sprout be too cool to take advice, the next healer you get. I've had more than my fair share of deadweight. Enabling their behaviour is NEVER worth it.

Lol the YTYP mentality is kinda wild. It literally only takes 1 to 2 gcd's to take aggro, and a good dps will bring mobs to the tanks if they do pull ahead. There is nothing wrong with a dps/healer starting the wall to wall pulls as long as mobs are brought to the tank. It does suck as a tank to chase other people. As long as you move with them as the tank and aoe while moving, you can pull aggro. Specially with the aggro changes they recently did. If you get to the end of the wall and the dps is running around like a headless chicken then let them die for being dumb not bringing you the add.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

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1) And slowly, all of those are being phased into Non-MMO situations. Where you don't have to deal with multiplayer content. Which means, once more, you are not forced to learn anything near of what the community expects of you.

2) Let me put you out of your misery. The devs are the one's that have the community on a leash. They are the one's that determine job changes, content design, the one's that even allow you to attempt to wall to wall pulls. And going against dev decisions, is how you end up breaking ToS and getting banned from the game. Going against the playerbase is not going to get your account wiped out. Half of you have an ego because you haven't played a game before where the devs actually abused their authority and trashed every playstyle and mechanic that you cared about, repeatedly, for a decade. If you don't plan to unsub in mass, your opinion is irrelevant which is why we're in a Healer Strike right now as is.

3) *skips first half of assumptions* "all roles get the minimum tools needed to perform their job". Exactly. The Minimum. Minimum =/ Core Kit.
DRK = missing Blackest Night, core to their mitigation rotation
PLD = missing Clemency which was a massive game-changer in completing content with job utility, as well as every ability that's a group mitigation or damage transfer
GNB = no combos at 50
WAR = no raw intuition, core to their mitigation rotation

People have complained for years that jobs do not play anywhere near the same throughout the various levels, even at 50. And Yoshi-P has even mentioned that they've thought about how to address this.

As for GNB:
"what your mitigations are" -> reading a description is different than forcing you to rotate cooldowns as a success condition
"to activate your stance" -> you mean the button you hit 1 time at the start of the instance and never use again? such an amazing tutorial feature
"use your combo" -> Did it teach you how to allign it with your damage buff? Did it teach you how to sync it with your other long damage ogcd and gcd combos such as SB, DZ, RD? Did it teach you how to move the boss while doing combos? Did it teach you how to use mitigation in the middle of the combos? Did it teach you that you could break your combo with other actions and still keep the proc actives? Did it teach you 3 target vs 2 target damage rotation numbers? When you unlocked Bloodfest, did it teach you your entire burst window with reset'ing the cartridge count or teach you a sped up opener?

No. They taught you how to push a button that lit up one time, and another button that lights up after you push the same button 3 times and none of the complications and intricacies that come with it being played in a normal manner.

4) "as far as they can" That's the copium. Try as you might, you're not important :3

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Easy peasy. Just make sure the WHM uses cure 2. Either the sprout you get does it or, should the sprout be too cool to take advice, the next healer you get. I've had more than my fair share of deadweight. Enabling their behaviour is NEVER worth it.

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I like how you conveniently left out what you'd do if the sprout didn't take the advice. Either you'd have to not do the wall to wall pull (and prove my point) or leave instance immediately <5min in (which is considered toxic behavior).

Recently saw one last night in The 97 "Vanguard" Dungeon from a Paladin.

Me and the Healer basically are used to the pace basically everyone does.
(we all basically strangers)

They didn't speak up at the start, and the other dps didn't say anything(Their first time in DNG)

At some point the Tank said something along the lines of:
"Are you in a rush?"

I felt the ypyt coming, but I didn't message anything yet. So decided not to send a single "?"

But the Healer did it for me.

They then proceed to pull the oldest most stale line by all YouPullYouTank-ers ever.
"If you want to "pull" queue as tank"
(paraphrasing btw. it's been abit, and I'm not gonna dig up what it all said. I only screenshoted it, incase they tried to abuse reports. <Though mostly, cause I send in fair and earned reports of others who actually cause Real BS. so just incase someone does so with Malice. I'm ready>)

In which case it hit to everyone that this, This Paladin, giving all good paladins out there - a bad name, is YPYTing at that moment.

The most I did, is state "Ah, a ypyt"

They then started to single pull, and try to be "passively-agressively slow in their mob pull".

I forget what the Healer said. but it wasn't anything combative or serious.

Though I probably was alil mean, and joking with the Paladin by saying.

"Sorry, we were in Autopilot, LOL"
[If they understood, the joke, and also the irony placed at their feet. IDK.]

Least it was silent and calm throughout the last part of the dungeon.

The other dps DCED after the final SnekBoss Pull.

And they came back for the final part of the second Phase. so I'm glad they got to finish the final boss after DCING on the first part of said boss.

Commd the Healer, and left. (Though not solely cause the situation. but cause they had to burn more of their kit with the slow tank, and a missing dps on the boss. Due to unfortunate DC. Though they didn't need to heal much, as the tank was the only one Getting damaged. They can at least do that.)

This discourse is open and shut: It's against ToS, rightfully, no exceptions listed. Therefore if you subscribe to the mindset you're *objectively* in the wrong no matter the context.

To any YPYT who earnestly believes it is their right to act in such a way: Take that up with SE, not your fellow player. We're not the ones who made your "play style" bannable.

I don't know whether it's me who has a radically different experience from the others or not, but just to hammer home the point: the dps I saw pull when I was a tank were systematically bad dps. No group buff, a pretty lousy dps, no check on the cd def used by the tank... And a danger to the group, because like a lot of tanks when I slow down there's a reason. I've been playing for a while now, and after the time when I was very new and going fast was an adaptation problem, I've never once seen a dps pull in a useful way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bp_isa_ff

This discourse is open and shut: It's against ToS, rightfully, no exceptions listed. Therefore if you subscribe to the mindset you're *objectively* in the wrong no matter the context.

To any YPYT who earnestly believes it is their right to act in such a way: Take that up with SE, not your fellow player. We're not the ones who made your "play style" bannable.

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It's not bannable. I still don't know who even told people this lie. When you look at the link: https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216

1)
"・Expressions that compel a playing style"
"It is prohibited to make statements such as:
"There's no way we can clear this with [suggestion]."
"Big pulls are normal here, so do it!""

They specifically say that trying to get a player to mass pull is against ToS.

2) ・Obstructing Gameplay Using Combat
Using and manipulating enmity-related actions in an effort to incapacitate other players **or interfere with gameplay.**
If you adding extra damage in stress to a player that doesn't want it, you are interfering with their gameplay.

3) ◆Monster Player Kill (MPK)
"MPK" is an act of sending a monster towards another person so that they are knocked out or **obstructing another person's gameplay.**

You have 3 violations possible based on pulling adds and bringing them to a tank that doesn't want them. Meanwhile the only defense is:
・Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior

Which apparently, noone read the drop down menu to read:
"From the perspective of a skilled player in such a situation, a less skilled player may appear to be "adversarial/uncooperative/apathetic," but even if this is the case, it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately."

Aka, if a tank wants to solo target aggro through a dungeon, that is his right. You don't get to dictate how he pulls unless it forces you to die for reasons you didn't create. A tank doesn't have to cooperate with anyone else in the group. SQUARE ENIX EXPLICITY SAYS THEY DO NOT.
YPYT is asserting the rights the developers actually gave you.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

It's not bannable. I still don't know who even told people this lie. When you look at the link: https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216
3) ◆Monster Player Kill (MPK)
"MPK" is an act of sending a monster towards another person so that they are knocked out or **obstructing another person's gameplay.**

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This literally describes YPYT, refusing to draw aggro so the monster kills another player,

the rest of it is about not being rude in case they just genuinely don't know they can pull larger or shaming players because they won't do giga-pulls like the first Snowcloak pull, Stone Vigil into the boss arena pulls, or Mt Gulg. YPYT isn't being a low skill player, it's a tantrum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WeakestZenosEnjoyer

This literally describes YPYT, refusing to draw aggro so the monster kills another player,

the rest of it is about not being rude in case they just genuinely don't know they can pull larger or shaming players because they won't do giga-pulls like the first Snowcloak pull, Stone Vigil into the boss arena pulls, or Mt Gulg. YPYT isn't being a low skill player, it's a tantrum.

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"sending" is not the same as "refusing to grab". To a GM, you committed suicide. You grabbed the add to begin with. A tank's job is not to save you from every mistake you could make. You created the problem. And if you go to other games, that concept isn't even a thing. If you tried to pull ahead of a tank on my old game, you would've gotten killed before you even reached the tank because the adds have ranged attacks and lunges, and in higher content will flat out 2shot you. You're not allowed to even try that concept without using the equivalent of a limit break to try to survive while getting back to the group.

With how aggro/emity works in this game.. If you're salty a dps pulled ahead of you, you should stop tanking. Literally 1 or 2 aoe gcd's keeps aggro now. It takes 3 boss auto's at 2.5gcd to kill a dps maybe 4 to 5 if dps uses a defensive. So as a tank literally 1 to 2 single target abilities will take aggro on a boss. Tanking has become considerably easier throughout the years. Letting a dps pull ahead and bring the add's to you speeds up the dungeon. The faster you get the dungeon done the faster you are at grinding. If you don't like dps pulling ahead of you, there are trust where NPC's hold your hand for you.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

You grabbed the add to begin with. A tank's job is not to save you from every mistake you could make.

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"a tank serves as the party's shield." - Lodestone job guide.

If a tank's job isn't to grab aggro genuinely what is their job. We're not playing other games either, we're playing FFXIV Online: A Realm Reborn in the year 2024. They just got an enmity increase on their AoE and have had an enmity increase on their ranged attack for a while so they can grab aggro off the DPS even though that apparently isn't their job, weird.

I'm going to start with the real game changer,

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

3) *skips first half of assumptions* "all roles get the minimum tools needed to perform their job". Exactly. The Minimum. Minimum =/ Core Kit.
PLD = missing Clemency which was a massive game-changer in

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This alone says everything. The fact you consider Clemency as core PLD spell and a game changer just highlighted how little you actually know how to play tanks. Moving on...

1)You still have to run dungeons and trials with others, barring trusts, sweetheart. That one thing is hardly going to change.
2) Unless the devs are enforcing mind controlling devices they do NOT "have the community on a leash". Because, at every turn and every moment, everyone can call them idiots and unsub. And having the usual attention seeker in the forum whining doesn't change the fact that what the community and the dev think about the game are two entirely different things. And if you knew a bit of FFXIV, healer complainsts have existed ever since HW
3)Already addressed the important part. But let me correct you: the complaints are aimed at the fact that playing at level 50 is boring as shit because you're not playing the full class, hence why it feels incomplete. You are still fine to clear whatever content you get at level 50, even Savage T9. And I strongly suggest you give the scenario another spin.
4) *cough cough* Mt. Gulg gigapulls. *cough, cough* Someone who considers Clemency a game changer isn't in any position to lecture others on tank discussions. Not to mention you're not on the majority defending YPYT, so.... yeah.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

I like how you conveniently left out what you'd do if the sprout didn't take the advice.

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"Can you clear SoS with an AFK person? You can't. That means tanking Warrior of Light isn't so easy right? Checkmate" This is the level of your argument. If your whole argument requires someone to be incompetent, you don't have an argument at all. No one. NO ONE is expected to perform beyond what their alloted responsibilities. If I do wall to wall in Stone Vigil, cycle the cooldowns accordingly and die because the healer is spaming Cure 1, it's not my problem anymore. It's the healers'. And I do NOT have to drag or slow down for someone who REFUSES to step up their game and do an actual decent job. It doesn't work that way. And, so far, 0 sessions with a GM over it, because I do not insult or threaten. I tell them what they should improve, and if they refuse to learn the easy way, they'll have to learn the hard way. Hence the dismiss vote if they refuse to play right. No more coddling deadweight.

But it's understandable you think expecting people to strive for a modicum of competence is toxic. You would get a hard time doing dungeon roulettes as a Clemency Paladin (yes, it's really bad).

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Originally Posted by AlaineIV

With how aggro/emity works in this game.. If you're salty a dps pulled ahead of you, you should stop tanking.

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This isn't the point of YPYT. The ease of enmity is irrelevant. It's about the dps getting the party killed half the time because they added stress that the tank and healer couldn't handle. Every YPYT person has been killed by a DPS or healer before thinking they knew best when they were ignorant and had something they didn't realize. And it makes us hate every person that does that going forward because you are a pending nuisance. A tank's job is not to run up and gain aggro on every add and just spam aoe mindlessly while hitting random cooldown buttons. It is to LIVE first and foremost.

We don't want a DPS trying to say "we know best, we know what you can handle", when that has gotten groups wiped in the past. Clearly, as a whole, that role doesn't actually know what people can handle. They know what people are /supposed/ to be able to handle, but not what they actually are. That's why when a wipe happens, they pikachu face and have to ask what happened or apologize. Healers are the only people that should be speaking with a tank about pull decisions and even then, it's a consideration because depending on the content level, the tank is going to have more information than the healer even about whether a pull is possible. I've had times as a healer myself, and times I witnessed other healers give assurance to a tank, "you can full pull, I got you, don't worry" despite the tank being new. And sometimes you carry them through. Other times, I look up and the tank hasn't been taught how to mitigate properly, they don't use invul's, no1 told the tank about Arm's Length & Reprisal so it wasn't even on their hotbar,they're getting hit by aoe cone's due to lagging and end taking more damage than I expected, I see dps's getting hit by aoe's trying to greed for damage and not using bloodbath to heal back part of that suicide positioning and forcing me to use AoE heals I didn't have planned, etc. to where either I have to sweat to save them, or they end up dying still because there were things I did not know. A tank's job is not to get through content asap, a tank's job (along with a healer's) is to get through content as smoothly as possible. And wall pulling blindly in every situation is not smooth consistently.

DPS's playing russian roulette, running off in Narnia and try to make it back before dying is not smooth. The only thing I hate more as a healer than a tank sprinting off and getting out of healing range and forcing me to burst them up from an inch of health because they wanted to LoS or sprint while mine was on cooldown, is a DPS doing it because I have to burn more cooldowns or stronger cooldowns, swiftcast, etc. to save their stupidity and squishiness that should've been meant for the tank. Most DPS's can't pull smoothly consistently without being a minor irritation in the process.

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Originally Posted by WeakestZenosEnjoyer

"a tank serves as the party's shield." - Lodestone job guide.

If a tank's job isn't to grab aggro genuinely what is their job. We're not playing other games either, we're playing FFXIV Online: A Realm Reborn in the year 2024. They just got an enmity increase on their AoE and have had an enmity increase on their ranged attack for a while so they can grab aggro off the DPS even though that apparently isn't their job, weird.

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And guess what shields do? They lead the battlefield. If you're a soldier, you don't run past the shield to draw aggro against the enemy frontline and get shot/stabbed and then try to duck back behind the shield after you get fucked up and scream "protect me". "Well you're not pushing enemy lines fast enough for me". Your general would smack you assuming you weren't dishonorably discharged for suiciding and putting your allies at risk. You don't see a mention of healers having a responsibility of drawing aggro. You don't see DPS's having a responsibility of drawing aggro. I also don't see a mention saying that tanks and healers have to follow DPS's into Narnia to save them from dying, nor do I see footage of anyone passing the tank.