Still a terrible representation of what anyone has asked for. Is that honestly what you have taken away from the literal 2 years of arguing you done with the group of players around the forums? If so, then it just goes to show that you don't respect anyone enough to truly read what they write and listen. "a 3-hit combo" my ass. You mean the thing several players have specifically advocated against?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Want good faith discussion? Fix your response for real, or a toxic response is what you've earned. You get what you pay for.
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11-29-2023, 05:21 AMty_taurus
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11-29-2023, 05:32 AMfulminatingFor the love of god Ren please stop trying to explain to Sebazy of all people how scholar and other healers were in arr/hw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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11-29-2023, 05:35 AMty_taurusIt's like when a flat earther argues with an astronomer.Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
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11-29-2023, 05:45 AMRein_eon_OsborneOutside the very old classic Ragnarok Online, I don't think I remember playing any other MMO with "heal ~80% of the time" and I was quite one of the trashiest healer due to lack of experience & likely having biased view myself from that alone. Still, I had a vague memory where there were few times I remember I could help dish out some damage. Not much, but it was something. I wonder what other better, more experienced healers would perform? I bet they did 'non-heals' far more than I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull
Sadly even if you do, you can still see some snippets of their quotes when it's brought up into another's replies. At least it's good for laughter when you're bored of 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 in-game, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn
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11-29-2023, 05:49 AMty_taurusWhen what feels like the conversational equivalent to shoving your head into a food processor is more entertaining than actually playing as a healer, you know there's a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne
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11-29-2023, 05:54 AMAmiableApkalluThat wasn't my argument, and you'd know that if you had actually read to the end of my comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Given this game's release cycle, the fact that familiarity breeds boredom means that boredom will set it, sooner or later. This is true for both healing and for dealing damage.
Like an addict, the people that got their "fix" with a bit more required healing will go back to their dealer and ask for more. It would never be enough.
But here's the difference: With damage options, content can be tuned so that it remains clearable even if people do sub-optimal DPS. Every leveling dungeon and trial is proof enough of this. Required healing has a hard ceiling of whatever healing healer's are capable of putting out, and hitting that ceiling means that there is literally zero room for mistakes, meaning you'd screw over every healer and every party that didn't play absolutely perfectly.
That said, let me be clear: This "eventual boredom" and "addict" thing is an absurd argument against no increases at all to required healing. It is similarly an absurd argument against no increases at all to DPS options. Repeat anything enough times, and boredom will set in. However, given the choice between becoming bored of 121111111111-bread-and-water vs. comfort food, I'll take the comfort food. -
11-29-2023, 05:55 AMKenZentra
Ren has been saying nonstop that both DPS and Healing kits need to be reworked with both of those interacting with each other all the while that each healer be unique from each other so each plays differently. and that several aspects of the game need to be reworked anyways to fix the dull, mind numbing aspect of Healing as a role such as how damage is sent out and mitigated by several classes, massive healing potential and mit from most tanks, and how mechanics are handled by design. He hasnt said healing should be the ONLY change, but that you COULD let the healing kit be the only change TO healers.
While we both agree (i think) that there should be more consistent damage during encounters, I am the person who firmly believes that healing kits should be the only change to healing kits (aside from using DPS actions should interact your healing actions in some way).
Its just so bizarre to watch someone, advocate FOR having both, and people yell at him that we do not need a rework of healing kit or that the damage profile of encounters doesn't need to change, and people just saying he is wrong because of what healers have right now and what is expected of them right now.
Like, you guys know the first thing that goes into designing an encounter is how it interacts with healers, then Tanks, then DPS right? -
11-29-2023, 05:55 AMSargeTheSeagull
Ren, can you honestly say what you think most people want to see in each healers’ damage kits? Honestly. No “I guess”, no silly quips, no straw manning, just plain and simple. On average, what do you think people like myself, Ty, ForsakenRoe, Sebazy etc, want to see done to healers? Because at this point idk if you’re trying to be clever and exaggerate or if you actually don’t understand.
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11-29-2023, 05:57 AMRenathrasAnd so now we've entered the part of the thread where you guys derail it to attack me and then blame me for being everything wrong with conversations and preventing good discussion:
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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn
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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull
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Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne
Narrator: Ren did not, in fact, suggest that. Sebazy decided to run numbers and used that comparison herself.Quote:
Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull
Dude, I'm polite to people unless they're abject arses to me, and I'm never the one that starts throwing insults or attacks. In other words, I'm not the one that introduces toxicity to the situation. I already told you I'm representing ROE'S proposal specifically there. Yet you ignore that because you're on a tirade and want to keep calling me names instead of, you know, address the topic or arguments presented and raised by people you disagree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Did I not straight up say "Some of your proposals have been more in depth, but none of them are an incremental change"? Is this another case of you not reading my posts and just responding with insults that would have been avoided had you merely read posts before replying to them?
Which part of that statement, exactly, was wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
Was damage to the party more frequent and consistent relative to our kits? Yes.
Did we have less oGCDs then? Yes.
Did we have Cleric Stance then? Yes.
Was GCD healing common and even necessary? Yes.
Was theorycrafting still in its infancy in this game in HW? Yes.
Did Alexander devastate the raid community at the time? Yes.
Did many players believe "healers were for healing" and was this generally accepted by the community at that time? Yes.
...so much so that Cleric Stance was removed in 4.0 as a toggle/stance.
This is very much an ad hominem fallacy of "you don't know what you're talking about, never mind everything you said is correct". Flat earther? Really Ty?
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But remember, everyone: Ren is the problem.
Just so you know, it's hard for people to take you seriously (other than you guys upvoting each other's posts and quote agreeing with each other) that I'm the problem in discussions when discussions go great until one of YOU GUYS decides to go on the warpath attacking me, ignores my response, and the rest of you join in circle-jerking each other's attacks on me.
Hard to see that I'm the toxic one that is disrupting conversations when the conversations - with me in them - are going fine until you guys decide to start bashing me instead of discussing the topic.
I just want to stick with the discussion and see my reply to SargeTheSeagull below. -
11-29-2023, 05:58 AMSargeTheSeagullWhen the hell have the devs ever said that? If that were the case why hasn’t every fight got an outgoing damage profile similar to barbarricia where we actually have to heal? Most encounters deal raidwide damage MAYBE once a minute.Quote:
Originally Posted by KenZentra
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11-29-2023, 06:18 AMRenathrasAgreed. I think it's a far better line of discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhemmer
"the absolute floor to be not quite so low"?Quote:
Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu
The proposals are all more complex than the SB healer damage kits, even what SCH was at the time, and I think Roe's WHM proposal is the only one that's not more complex than the SB SCH damage kit (though it is moreso than the SB WHM and AST kits were).
Here's my problem with the more DPS actions/complexity - it affects everyone, whether or not people insist it will, including the people that don't/won't like it. And if it ISN'T ultimately satisfying for the people that want more, then they'll just continue to ask for more. Moreover, it doesn't fix the underlying issues of the role and encounter design/kit mismatch, nor the issues of healer players that are currently dissatisfied but DON'T want more DPS as their solution.
Fair?
Oh my god THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by KenZentra
Most people? Hard to say, since we have little data about what the majority of the playerbase want.Quote:
Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull
However, specific to the common Healer Forum posters and people here wanting more DPS actions?
Collectively, they seem to want healers to have rotations somewhere in the ballpark of PLD/SMN/GNB/DNC/RDM (general ballpark) on the lower end, with some few examples being more complex. The feeling overall is that healing takes so few GCDs and cannot in their minds ever take up enough that they will still have a majority of downtime/not-healing GCDs, during which periods they are bored. They feel like they should be entertained by even the most braindead content, where they have even less healing to do, and so require more damage actions/complexity to consume mental space to keep them highly engaged.
There is a feeling that there's no amount of damage that could satisfy them, even in Ultimates or Savages, and thus they need a DPS rotation. SOME have also made comments about not wanting to be a "healbot" or "heal bitch" or "party cheerleader", indicating a kind of disdain for that playstyle or players that do. There seems to be an uncomfortable amount of disdain for players that like to play healers to heal in general (including a general rejection that people can actually enjoy filling health bars), coupled with a belief that such players are lazy and want to get clears or good pares (or both) with a minimal effort, despite the fact one of the most frequent questions people have is "what's the easiest DPS?" and that players that want no effort carries typically don't like playing healers or tanks because of the presumptive belief of more responsibility. There seems to be a strong desire to sort of put such players in their place by having them do lower damage and, in some cases (Semi has said this outright, and several others have said so roundaboutly though insisted that isn't what they meant when called on it...despite doing so over and over again) that such players should not be able to clear high end content, even midcore content like Extremes.
At their best, it seems that, collectively, the desire is to not be bored, a thinking that everyone else enjoys what they do (or will realize they do once forced to do it), and that changes to encounter design, healing kits, Job kits overall (healers and non-healers), and so on CANNOT work and will never satisfy them (or the rest of the playerbase they seem to believe think like them and enjoy what they do), so the only way to make everyone happy (despite many people telling them over and over it wouldn't make them happy) is to have Green DPS kits that are on par with the lower end of DPSers (SMN/DNC), including some variability in the rotation so it isn't the same every time (DNC procs and "Diacloud" are often mentioned). Note I say SMN/DNC here, the phrase "Tank-like" is often used, but let's be real, SMN is Tank-like at this point in terms of complexity and optimization. GNB (and probably DRK...and possibly WAR) arguably has more. But this isn't a nitpick so much as an attempt at a better descriptor. I think if you could take DNC's rotation (change ability names, of course) and replace/merge SGE with it (where you had all DNC's DPS rotation/abilities + SGE's oGCD heals and GCD heals), these people would find that a pretty acceptable Job and would like all the healer Jobs to be in that sort of vein.
At their worst, ...well, you know, I'm not going there. I really don't want to, believe it or not. I do get annoyed with the ad hominems and personal attacks and all that, but I'd rather us focus on actual discussion, not personal attacks.
In fact, I think I might even [hb] my other post for now (and may delete it) because I REALLY don't want to go there, I just want to point out that it's the people choosing to attack me that are disrupting these conversations, not me.
As KenZentra pointed out, I'm not the one trying to advocate for only some people getting what they want. I legitimately DO want everyone to get something they want.
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But, I'd like too turn this question to you - and the others here:
Not a caricature or ad hominem: What do you think I want? Can you honestly say what it is that I want to see? No "I guess" or silly quips, no straw manning. What is it you think I want to see done to healers? AND to encounter design/overall game design regarding healing - since that's a big part of what I personally think needs to happen? -
11-29-2023, 06:45 AMIDontPetLalasI'll summarize two points - (1) "He hasnt said healing should be the ONLY change, but that you COULD let the healing kit be the only change TO healers."- in principle, you could- but there's several pages of posts explaining why that's not the PREFERRED way of making changes. Further to this point, he's also advocated for waiting several years for getting ALL of the changes (i.e. not only healing changes) , and several of us have also explained why this wouldn't be a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by KenZentra
(2) I do not *know* that encounter design at Square starts with examining the interaction with healers, then tanks , followed by DPS. I'm sure that they have process , personally I have no idea of their process, considering that some people would say that healer design doesn't have that good of a fit with encounter design, would you happen to have a source for that? -
11-29-2023, 06:50 AMSaraideThey just hope that SE will never go through with it and they're probably on the point with that hope because SE doesnt want to gate them out of the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
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11-29-2023, 06:54 AMShurrikhanThe problem here is you're looking at additional baggage. Those who've been talking to Ren for multiple years now have already gone through the song and dance of suggesting concrete changes at adjust both in synergy after Ren finally permits at least the principle only to return to yet to "4 Healer Model" insistences that actually only one job should have DPS be anything worthy of engagement (and that only one healer should have meaningful buffs, only one healer should have... so one and so forth). Most agree with his desire for diversity. The repeated differences are in how -- whether that should be through restriction (making X mechanic or consideration beyond the barest bones of interaction exclusive to a particular job in order to make that job diverse) or in practical combination (how jobs may each differently make use of a deep kit), i.e., a difference in the total complexity available to players.Quote:
Originally Posted by KenZentra
That in turn cycles into a disagreement on how things should be balanced (i.e., whether the game should be balanced only around the best of players, to whom differences in job difficulty would be largely irrelevant and so a job that puts out equal value despite lower risk, effort, or knowledge required wouldn't have a meaningful advantage and so jobs kept purposely to shin-high skill ceilings could have the same maximum value as jobs with far higher skill ceilings, or instead balanced around, say, a skilled but imperfect player for whom a tiny bit of extra oomph may be necessary for the hardest jobs to balance out the near-guaranteed loss in practice so that they aren't so badly outperformed in what content balance may actually matter by the jobs whose skill ceilings have been squished / kept low for Ren's "something for everyone").
That last bit is more important, still, though: To many, we don't need a job to be capped at a given skill ceilings for a given simpler play style to be viable and engaging for the kind of content a player who despises complexity in their own kit is likely to enjoy. Ah Hoc SAM exists even now. Standard Rotation Monk exists even now. Hell, Monk can take Demolish and True Strike off their bars and miss all their positional and they'd still be viable for most content in this game. As such, there seems little point in having a something for everyone by capping a job at ABC out of ABCDEFGH... when one could just use only part of the total kit anyways. Assuaging people's feelings by helping them pretend they're doing all they can, when they're already doing all they need for the content they do anyways, is not worth enforcing low ceilings.
Let the posts make their backs and forths for a few dozen more posts, and that's where we're almost certain to end up again: with the same broad goals but very different interpretations on how many opportunities should be precluded just to spare certain player's contradictory feelings ("I don't want to play something that requires much of me, but I want to max out all that is possible on the job I chose, and although I want to play whatever I want for fun I also want the throughput of those doing more than me") and on what constitutes job diversity (on paper, via differences in categorical capacity, on in practice, via differences in how they may put to use an unrestricted range of capacities befitting their themes).
Both 'sides' want both things changed, even if one (e.g., those who've also done more whack-a-mole style healing elsewhere) may be more wary of simply increasing healing requirements to get there. Neither 'side' seems fond of the glut of CDs, for how much they leave the kit disjointed and may continue to do so unless/until recontextualized and redesigned through encounter changes and small changes to those skills' bankability, both. The biggest question that have split the 'two' across the last handful of threads is how much cognitive load, in total should healers be allowed to engage with, how accessible the floor should be regardless, and therefore how large a gap for skill expression ought to exist between the two.
Given that Ren has often insisted that there should be strictly easier (lower ceiling, more so than just low floor) jobs for players who may want them, this has led others to assume that whatever "both" be may be okay with would afford less change overall than they may think fitting or necessary.
Sorry for all the doubtless typos, as I'm writing this from my phone, but I hope that may give some insight into why concurrence in goals isnt necessarily showing agreement.
As for design starting with healers... I don't think we've seen much, if any, evidence of that, but it would be smart if it did. I would agree that it's where things should start in kill-fights, as healers are the bottleneck for any fight won through damage (and tanks just more context-sensitive hybrids supplying sustain and slightly more direct means of damage through mob-positioning, etc., than healers). -
11-29-2023, 07:23 AMLyth
Is rotational complexity the real goal here? Healers' rotations have always been vastly simpler than their Caster DPS equivalents. If someone was actually after complexity, I'm sure they would have swapped roles long ago, had they the competence to make the jump. The healer role has tended to be a sort of safe sanctuary where you can be a big fish in a small pond regardless of skill, because most of the people you're being compared to aren't all that focused on dealing damage to begin with. What I suspect people are really looking for is a bigger performance differential. Cleric Stance used to do this quite nicely, as the simple act of leaving on a stance button and letting your co-healer manage all the healing for you let you show off a seemingly impressive performance compared to your peers.
I think the core problem with supports at the moment is that the checks are all pass/fail, and the actually interesting parts of the gameplay are in doing damage. So if you're a halfway decent player, you're much more valuable on DPS. If you want to change that, you need more opportunities in which a tactically minded player who understands their teammates needs is able to subtly enhance the group's performance outside of raw damage buffs. Expedient was a step in the right direction, but they need to just be more creative with this sort of thing and give healers tools to improve their teammates' uptime. -
11-29-2023, 07:32 AMAmiableApkalluNo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
To the first bit I've put in bold: Be charitable and assume that when someone asks for more DPS actions/complexity — and when they make this ask with details including specific actions and procs and gauges and potencies – unless they themselves state otherwise, maybe that person would actually be satisfied with what they just asked for.
"If it isn't ultimately satisfying" is just as useless a retort to "people that want more required healing." The actual responses take a different tack and are more nuanced – mine being that there is room for more required healing (for example: continuing autos through cast bars; random, untelegraphed cleaves and mini tank busters), but you also need to leave time for recovering from mistakes.
To the second bit I've put in bold: I believe your "usual" conversational foils agree on that point, so I'm not entirely certain why you keep bringing it up as if it's a point of contention. (It's also true of "more required healing.") -
11-29-2023, 07:37 AMForsakenRoe
Another day, another post of Ren explaining that what we experienced in ARR was not actually how things were. Really is groundhog day here
Pssst, got a black-market SGE design you might find interesting, probably fits what you're looking for re: dynamismQuote:
Originally Posted by Mayhemmer
1: Dosis, Pneuma, Diagnosis, Prognosis, Dyskrasia and Phlegma, and any Eukrasian variants thereof (in other words, everything that currently has MP costs) now costs ZERO MP.
2: Soteria, Krasis, Zoe now have a 5 second cooldown, and an MP cost (maybe 1000 idk). Eukrasia now has an MP cost, albeit slightly lower (maybe 700, comparatively speaking)
3: E.Diagnosis, E.Prognosis and E.Dosis now have their base form's potency, with the additional effect being just that, additional, potencies adjusted to compensate. This means E.Diagnosis is 450p, with a shield equal to 120% of HP restored. E.Prognosis is 300p, shield equal to 100% of HP restored (yes it went down by 20p, it's not a big deal). E.Dosis now does 330p up-front damage, with a DOT effect of 35 for 30sec (same total, but half of it is now frontloaded). Currently, if you accidentally Eukrasia before a cast but don't need the Eukrasia, you have to either click it off (clunky) or suck up the loss of effectiveness. With this, all you lose is the MP cost. Which still sucks, just not as much.
4: Toxicon now has a 5sec cooldown, and an MP cost. Toxicon 2 is removed. Addersting is reworked as a resource into a 0-100 gauge. Addersgall is reworked into a 0-100 gauge. Addersgall is generated both passively at a rate of 1 per second, and actively via the class's skills. All previous costs of 'one Addersgall' now cost 25 Addersgall. Yes this means you can pool 4 Druocholes instead of 3.
5: A new button, Pankardia (MP cost 1000), is added as a level 68 skill. It's effect would be 'Applies 4 stacks of PanKardion to all nearby allies. When Kardion heals, every ally with PanKardion receives a heal of the same potency, consuming one stack per Kardion heal triggered.'
6: Soteria has it's effect changed to 'Applies 4 stacks of Soteria to self. Each Kardion heal is increased by 50% of the damage dealt by the attack that triggered the heal, consuming one stack. Area-Effect skills only count the primary target.'
7: Zoe has it's effect changed to 'Applies 4 stacks of Zoe to self. Causes Kardion and Pankardion to additionally apply a barrier, equal to 25% of the amount healed by the original effect, consuming one stack. Multiple applications of this barrier may overlap, strengthening the barrier's effectiveness. Does not stack with Eukrasian Prognosis.'
8: Krasis has it's effect changed to 'Applies 4 stacks of Krasis to self. Allows any non-instant spell to be cast with zero cast time, consuming one stack.'
9: Toxicon has it's effect changed to 'Drains the Addersting Gauge to 0, and applies 4 stacks of Toxicon to self. Offensive spells have increased potency, scaling based on how much Addersting was consumed. Consumes one stack per offensive spell used.' (at the moment, I'm thinking a 1:1 rate, so 100 gauge is 100p boost for 4 hits, but this can be spent earlier if needed, to reset the gauge to 0 and re-jig when you hit 100 to line up with raidbuffs better, for optimization gamers to play with)
10: Triggering a Kardion heal in any way generates 1 Addersting. Spending Soteria, Zoe and Krasis stacks have the additional effect of 'Increases Addersting gauge by 4.' (All 4 stacks total up to 16 gauge, 20 in total due to the Kardion triggering) Eukrasia grants 8 gauge on use. Spending Toxicon charges causes the Addersgall gauge to increase by 4 each. Addersgall spenders still retain their MP restoration effects, but the MP restoration potency might be rebalanced.
11: Phlegma has a 'Eukrasian' variant, which is a target-based circle AOE (like Phlegma currently is), does 50% of your current Phlegma's damage to the target and all enemies near it (and consumes a charge of Phlegma), but additionally applies Eukrasian Dosis to all targets hit for 15 seconds (this would mean a total potency of 475 per target in an AOE, over 15 sec), and uses Phlegma's current animation. Main Phlegma now uses Toxicon 1's animation, because it's our hardest hit and that animation is in the trailer for the game so it deserves to be front and center.
12: Rhizomata has it's effect changed to 'Adds 25 Addersgall. Causes the next MP cost to be reduced to 0. Duration: 10sec.'
13: Eukrasian Diagnosis' shield break effect changed from 'Grants one Addersting' to 'Grants Phlegmatic, allowing the cast of Phlegma without spending a charge'. This would not be a 100% refund (600 vs 660 of 2x Dosis), but it's better than what we have now. Also, going into a burst window with a E.Diagnosis, then spending your Phlegmatic charge, followed by the natural 2 Phlegma charges is probably a DPS gain for those optimization types, and would be a bit like DRK banking it's Dark Arts charge for raidbuffs
14: Pepsis now costs 500mp, has a very low CD (maybe 5sec), and generates 8 Addersting on use (even if it doesn't do anything you get the gauge). When Eukrasian Diagnosis or Eukrasian Prognosis break, they leave a buff on that player called Second Opinion for about 5 seconds. When Pepsis is used, it consumes Second Opinion to heal that player for the amount of HP the barrier protected for. Essentially, if you ever played a Character Action game like Viewtiful Joe, Wonderful 101, whatever, and used the Ukemi (jump button right as you land, instantly heal back the damage you took), it's that with a bit more leniency. And it gives Pepsis a much more interesting use case.
With something like this, I don't think having a damage kit of just 'Dosis, E.Dosis, Phlegma' is necessarily that bad. Like AST, the 'fun gameplay' doesn't necessarily come from the actual attacking, but how your kit interacts with your attacking, and in this case, with your healing too. Augments would resolve in a set order-of-operations, being Krasis, Toxicon, Soteria, Pankardia, Zoe. In other words, the game would check, in order, if you can instantcast via Krasis (Swiftcast would still be prioritized), then do the damage/heal calculation stuff. As an example, lets take a Dosis cast, at 330 potency, and the Kardia heal of 170 that it triggers, and follow it. We Toxicon that damage (my Dosis currently hits for about 10k before crit/DHit) and increase the potency of that hit, so this Dosis we're looking at is now 430p (becasue we spent 100 gauge to boost it). Next, we take 50% of the damage it deals (it's now dealing 13000ish, so 6500) and add that to the Kardia heal (for me, that's about 4500). So now our total heal is 11000. Next, we spread it to everyone at a 1:1 ratio via Pankardia. Lastly, we apply a shield of 2750 on top of the heal, to everyone.
Chances are you'd get 2-3 GCDs in while a boss casts the castbar for it's big raidwide, so that'd be a roughly 8250 shield due to it stacking on itself. And remember, it can't be applied alongside E.Prognosis, so if a boss has some way to chip away at shields before a raidwide (eg, the bleed from Aionagonia that ticks right up until Dominion is cast in P8S, or the whole of Firestorms of Asphodelos in general back in P3S with it's fire rain), that's gonna mess with your 'setup window'. Also, my Prognosis heals me for about 7.3k before crit, so the above rework would mean that, to equal E.Prognosis, this shield would have to have 2.5 untouched applications stacked up. No bleeds or raidwides or anything messing with it.
'Wait a second, 10k regen per hit, and building up to a 'potentially 11k shield on the whole party? That doesn't sound right, that sounds OP! Pure healers would be dead on arrival, etc' Well, yes and no. See, while it's 'theoretically possible', the factors that go into it would be ridiculous and never actually play out in practice. To put up that healing would require using all four augments at once, and with their 4 stack limit, you'd either have to quadweave them to get them all lined up (which noone would want to do) or have their durations staggered. You could Krasis and doubleweave effects together, getting you 3 stacks of 'everything is lined up', but then you have the other issue of pulling this off: MP costs. Applying 4 of these augments, plus the Krasis for swiftcasting to get them lined up better, would run you 4000 MP. Almost half your entire bar! Yes it's theoretically possible to do it, but you'd probably not need this amount of healing, and would rather juggle your Addersgall tools to reduce the amount of different augments you're applying, because you'd rather use the MP in a more rationed out way, to keep your other tools being used effectively and not letting them overcap, etc. I'm fairly sure some other stuff would need to be changed about too, such as removing the regen trait from Kerachole (or changing it to a barrier, cos, y'know, we're a barrier healer) to incentivize actually using these augments.
By having Toxicon and the new Addersting gauge be a damage increasing effect granted by Augment Stack consumption, Addersgall being refreshed faster by Toxicon consumption, and MP being restored by Addersgall consumption, we create a cycle of 'Spend A to get more B, spend B to get more C, spend C to get more A'. Ideally I'd want a 4th resource in the cycle to really lean into the identity of 'everything is 4' I seem to have made, but that might just be bloat for the sake of it. Either way, this I think would create a very different playstyle to the current healers, being as we're spending MP not on our healing, but on how we augment that healing. This has additional side effects too, for the more casual side of the playerbase. First and foremost is the fact that, if the base healing kit is MP-Free, we can spam it as much as we want. There's no need for anyone to say 'oh but what about the new healers this will be overwhelming' because if there's a panic situation, we can spam Prognosis and it is completely free. Eukrasian Prognosis, that still costs though.
Secondly, and this is purely by accident I swear, but this actually makes Piety be more than just 'OK I have enough now it's a dead stat'! See, if you generate more MP than you need, you can't really do anything with it in the current game, it's just...there. With this however, in the same way that we dump spare Addersgalls on Druochole just for the MP restore, we can dump spare mana on Krasis or Soteria or whatever. Why? Because spending those stacks gets us Addersting gauge, which gets us to Toxicon, and Toxicon gets us more damage! By getting more Toxicon uses in the fight, it would help to offset the 'less damage' that comes from having more Piety on your gear. Of course, careful balancing would need to be done to make sure 'stack Piety on purpose for more uptime on Toxicon' is not the prevalent strategy. Or maybe it wouldn't? Maybe 'Crit isnt the best stat by a country mile' would actually be a great breath of fresh air for the game?
Overall though, I think this would allow for a completely different mindset on how we heal, vs how we do damage. Everything feeds into each other in a cycle, incentivizing intelligent rotation of resources to overcap as little as possible, and clever use of which augment skill and when would allow for a real 'damage done = more healing done' aesthetic via Pankardia and Soteria. I didn't even need to remove any buttons from the class (not even Pepsis!), instead only needing to add one, Pankardia. If we do need to remove a button to make room though, I'd nominate Pepsis though. Nothing suggested is the 'be all end all', but I think it's fairly telling that people all have ideas for the class, and seem to have gone in completely different directions on it. It really shows, to me at least, how much room there is for growth for the class, beyond it's current form as 'SCH without fairy jank'.
I remember having to be solo healer in OSRS's Barbarian Assault. There, 'healing' was 'on the GCD' (that is, it was one action per 0.6s. Healing yourself, healing ally, attacking has a various speed based on weapon that is a multiple of 0.6, etc). I could heal 5 HP per 'heal action', could do one heal per 0.6s, had only four charges of the heal before I had to go to a pool to refill my heal bottle, and the boss hit everyone in the team (5 players) for anything between a 0 and a 12, every 3.6ish seconds. And despite all of that, I STILL had extra responsibilities to do. Poisoning the enemy 'healer' mobs with poisoned food, helping prepare the superweapon for the last boss, firing the cannons to stunlock certain enemies/help kill them with damage/poison shotsQuote:
Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne
In that last phase, I probably did reach 80% healing uptime. It was 'fun', sure, as a one off thing. Doing that constantly is going to shorten people's lifespans irl from the stress
Clearly the strat is to 'weave' writing a couple of words for a reply to Ren's latest 'actually you are wrong and I am right because I said so' at a time, between each Glare cast. It's a 2.5s GCD after allQuote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
The issue most of us have with his stance is that one healer must remain 'as is' on damage buttons, for the sake of 'people who like the current gameplay'. Effectively, he asks for healing and damage kit reworks for 3 healers, and healing kit rework only for one of them, usually WHM. When anyone says 'well what if we don't leave one healer in the dust to suffer the fate of SB WHM (exclusion from PF, etc)' that is when it gets heated.Quote:
Originally Posted by KenZentra
You've seen what I'd do to WHM, he has said 'no, don't want that' with several reasons, ranging from 'what if it means people do less damage and hit enrage', 'what if people want to heal and cant access the new gauge cos it's damage only (I addressed that one cos I did actually agree that the change made sense)', 'this adds too many new buttons, why don't we <change that sacrifices a piece of current gameplay, replacing it with piece of pitched gameplay instead of adding to it>' or 'I and others like me don't like DOTs, so why are you making us press Dia more times per minute'. And each time a 'reason it wouldn't work' is disproven with maths, or previous examples of such a thing from older versions of the game, or just sheer common sense, another bizarre reason pops up. It's like fighting a hydra. I quite literally suggested a way for WHM to get both a damage and healing kit adjustment, so if he is advocating for 'both sides to get adjusted', then there'd be no arguments to the level we get to on the regular, right? But no, it's the damage half he takes issue with, every time, because it's 'making WHM have more buttons for damage'. I did as much as I could to that design to make it 'casual friendly', to reduce punishment for misplays without making it auto-play itself, and it's still not enough. Because it never will be. We apparently MUST preserve current WHM gameplay at all costs, and it just goes completely against everything I ever learned about this stuff (game design principles). Can you imagine SE announcing 'hey SCH AST SGE, you get all cool new attacks and stuff. And WHM, you get to stay the same damagewise, but now you can press Asylum a second time to activate Salt and Light to instantly heal for 400p!' WHMs would be pissed. Nobody wants their class to be the 'one that got left out'.
I do take a little bit of umbrage with his characterization of my idea as just 'a second CD but this one is a GCD (true) and a 3step combo once every 40ish seconds'. I'd say there's a lot more to it than just that, but of course, arguing against the addition of things like Divine Seal > Temperance, Tragedy > Misery, Rapture at 70, the shield Lily spenders or Protect > Plenary would make him look more ridiculous than he usually does. Doubly so for the last of those, given that it's one of his suggestions that I thought 'wow, this is a Ren post that actually makes sense for once, I'll add it to the pitch'. If I had pitched just the healing stuff, and had the gauge only build from GCD heals, he'd probably be all for it. It feels like the main point of contention, every time, is Dia being made 12s duration, and it sucks cos there's loads of stuff there that he'd probably really enjoy, but he just keeps getting hung up on the bloody DOT duration -
11-29-2023, 07:45 AMShurrikhanI'm not sure we quite have a concensus on "rotation" as applicable to healers specifically, but we at least have a many-times-liked post here, from 8 pages back:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
For my part, I want more decision-making (i.e., rewards for awareness and foresight and, short of perfect foreknowledge, precise gambles) more so than just a many-step loop or the like (which seems to lose novelty far faster, imo), but I'm fine with a large portion of the decision-making regarding damage-dealing coming from working around the CDs or soft-CDs of healing spells and vice versa.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu
Such may not make striking dummy combat exciting yet, but... if it manages even 80% of what WAR/PLD striking dummy manages, I'm not about to complain. More would be better, but that much is fine to me. -
11-29-2023, 07:47 AMForsakenRoeAh yes, the reason I pitched 'just Dia at 12s and a new button at 15s' is because I wouldn't be satisfied with just that, it's actually the first step in my master plan to get SE onto the slippery slope of turning us into NIN opener. Never mind the fact that I am on record saying 'if we have only one chance to get SE to try changing things up, I'd want that one chance to be a solid try of it, not a halfarsed attempt'. Does anyone (except Ren) really think I'd say that, and then suggest something that I considered 'half arsed'? And additionally, I'm on record saying that 'by adding Shielding Lily spenders to WHM (and a more accessible way for AST to get shields than Neutral, eg bringing back Sect swapping or something), we can add healing complexity in ways that are not just 'heal more/faster/harder', such as 'Shield Checks', ala Vulcan Burst, Photon from A11S, etc, where you want a shield to either fully neutralize a mechanic, or mitigate an aspect of it, eg blocking a nasty debuff from applying to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu
Maybe I should draw out my proposed rotation (and the current one) on xivrotation, so we have a visual reference of the difference in Glare-Per-Minute (as if the pie charts weren't good enough at making that point)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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11-29-2023, 07:52 AMty_taurusI can only speak for myself. That being said... What you've described of what I want and what I think about other players above, is absolutely, 100% a caricature of my perspective. Things like "no amount of damage could satisfy me," that I have a distain for players who want to heal, or that I cannot believe that there are people who enjoy healing (It's almost like I've suggested there be a healer specifically designed for players who do not like DPSing on healers countless times at this point.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
The reason it becomes infuriating is that I have explained my perspective multiple times over the years, and still I am grouped into a caricature of the big bad DPS wanabee healers that you are effectively describing. That is why things break down, because after the cordial discussions and calm back and forths, it always ends up coming back to this cartoon villain description sooner or later. And surprise pikachu face, people stomp their foot down.
What you are correct about is that I don't want to be a healbot. That's the entire reason why I fell in love with FFXIV healing in ARR, because I wasn't just a healing turret. That balance of going back and forth between healing and attacking is what FFXIV did right in the beginning. If FFXIV's healers were healing turrets from the start, which they never were, I wouldn't be here today. I wouldn't have kept up with the game probably past 2.0 even. I wouldn't have returned to future patches. I would've just finished the story, played a little of the post game, and I wouldn't have been incentivized to come back, but loving the feeling of playing Scholar brought me back and is ultimately why I'm here now.
As for what I believe you want... You want White Mage as it is now. You'd tolerate a tiny bit of wiggle room overall, like returning Aero III, or giving Holy a single target conditional effect, but there's very little flexibility in what you find acceptable for White Mage. You've talked before about getting nothing from using DPS abilities enjoyment wise, but are also against a healer that buffs instead of attacks, at least for your own personal take. You want to heal more, but also have described content like Barb EX as overtuned on damage, so truthfully I can't make sense of what actual levels of incoming damage you'd like to see because I have no idea what would encourage more healing but also not be overtuned. You would like to see healing emphasis taken away from OGCD healing and redirected to GCD healing, which is something commonly agreed upon in this space, but you also want every GCD heal to be DPS neutral, or at least, conditionally with lilies on White Mage, so DPS neutral with a 20 second cooldown effectively. DPS performance does seemingly matter significantly to you. It's not enough that in anyone's suggestion, simply Glare spamming gets you very close to maximal performance. Or when I suggested including an auto-battle system, your response was something to the effect of "If using Auto-battle is just as optimal or more optimal than playing manually, then sure." You've argued with people over a 1%-3% difference in total potential DPS output.
So from all that, you basically want current White Mage with minimal changes over the rest of FFXIV's lifespan, that's as competitive or the most competitive healer in terms of DPS performance, but you also want that DPS performance to be able to come from healing spells that are more GCD focused and considerably weaker in an environment that has far more frequent outgoing, constant damage, so that you can have optimal DPS through healing, but also that outgoing damage shouldn't be stronger than Barb EX in Extreme and below, somehow. -
11-29-2023, 08:23 AMAravellIt's really funny when he complains that people make a caricature out of his arguments but he's totally fine with making a caricature out of other people's arguments. Like when he stretched so far to call me an elitist that doesn't want anyone worse than me to clear any content simply because I said that the skill ceiling should be higher and that job mastery should be rewarded (I often parse grey btw, so there's not many people worse than me in the first place), this is despite me going to math out how much impact that my suggested 10-20% gap would have (not much impact at all in first floor savage and below).Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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11-29-2023, 08:28 AMRenathrasOkay, setting aside this goes both ways - the song and dance I've gone through - my position has consistently changed and moved towards your (collective) stance, with VERY little (in many cases no) movement on your part. Which is hardly what compromise comes from. Additionally, I have to deal with people constantly lying - my position has never been "only one job should have DPS be anything worthy of engagement". At the VERY least, I've always suggested two have much more extensive damage kits, and often all of them, just some in different ways that aren't too different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The "disagreement" (and insults) quite often come from you guys lying about what I want. And despite me correcting the record over and over, not only do the lies persist, never is there an apology, like my reply to you a few pages back where I directly confronted your lying about me. There is NEVER a "Oh, we were wrong about what you want/what you're saying" at any point, despite it happening over and over and over again, and despite my position having moved a very long way from when these conversations started 2 years ago.
Originally, I wanted no changes to WHM or SCH, for AST's changes to be limited to support ability additions, and for SCH's to be its SB buttons. At this point, I've said WHM getting Aero 3 and an 18 sec Dia would be acceptable (note that this would be MORE DPS buttons than SB since we'd also have Misery AND note that this is MORE to the "more DPS buttons" side than you guys used to ask for; there was a time you guys were ONLY asking for Aero 3, then it became Aero 3 + 18 sec Dia, and now it's Aero 3 + 18 sec Dia + Quake/Tornado/Flood, some burst CDs, and a gauge), SCH I've said all the SB buttons back and even some that it didn't have, some that were SMN exclusives (like Egi Assaults or Fester), and I even made my own suggestions on additional changes that SCH could get on the DPS side. My ideas from SGE went from no changes to little changes to RDM-like rotation to BLM-like rotation. And AST I've just taken a total hands-off "do whatever you want with it" position.
I'm not sure how I could be MORE on your side, especially as your side (collectively) has moved FURTHER to "more DPS buttons".
Two years ago, the more DPS buttons camp on the Healer Forum was asking for WHM to get Aero 3, SCH to have its SB kit back, AST to have its SB/HW Cards back, and SGE to have a rotation like DNC level. At this point, that's LITERALLY more conservative than my own position, as my own position also has 18 sec Dia for WHM, SCH having an additional DPS button (or two) beyond what it had in SB, AST being whatever the heck you want, and SGE being as complex as BLM if you want it.
Hell, back then, I didn't think anything REALLY needed changing at all, and just thought some more DPS actions on a few Jobs would be nice to do to make more people happy. The same people spending 2 years badmouthing me over and over for daring to want them to be happier. Now, my position has expanded to not only include allowance for more DPS actions on ALL the healers THAN EVEN YOU GUYS WERE ASKING FOR TWO YEARS AGO, but also to overall changes to Tanks, DPSers, encounter design, and the rest of it.
Meanwhile, you guys have moved the goalposts. YOUR collective position two years ago was less DPS focused than MY current position is. The conversation, the Overton Window, continues to be pushed to "more DPS buttons", and so while I've moved TOWARDS the more DPS buttons position, to the point I'm even FARTHER towards it than you guys were 2 years ago, you guys have moved SO MUCH farther that not only do you oppose me having effectively your own position from 2 years ago, you attack me - relentlessly and brutally - for having probably the most open-minded and most inclusive position on the topic right now.
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THAT is the two years of "baggage", not your one-sided position on it.
Seriously, even my idea for WHM at this point (Aero 3 and 18 sec Dia) is MORE damage focused than the Healer forum was asking for 2 years ago (Aero 3 was the going ask back then). It's ridiculous that I'm accused of opposing all change and trying to drag people down when my own proposal at this point is MORE expansive and MORE damage focused than even you guys' was back then!
How far the Overton Window has moved...
EDIT:
That.
Said:
I think this is where we should start the conversation - with those things we agree on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The things we disagree on, we disagree on (tautology and all), and tend to drive more resentment an conflict. But if we could pull out all the things we DO agree on - both as problems and agree on the solution to them - and start with those things, that's how we could work to build a bridge to a greater Grand Bargain of sorts to solve the problem overall. -
11-29-2023, 08:30 AMForsakenRoeThe real question is, if T5 released today, and we had the kit of back then, the balance of back then, the jank netcode of back then... But we had the knowledge and skill of today, would we still have GCD healed and stood around so often on WHM for safety's sake? Or, knowing the fight timeline, how Twister actually works, etc, would we go balls-to-walls on damage regardless of healer, so as to get the fight down quicker, with the knowledge of how our MP costs work, how fast our MP regenerates, and how often (or not, as the case might be) damage actually goes out onto the raid? I suspect that part of the reason we didn't do damage as much back then was because we didn't know the game as well as we do now. We played safe back then in raids, to be able to see further into the fight. To try and get to Twisters again, to find out 'actually what tf is going on why are we blowing up here'. And in that regard, nothing's changed, we still play safe for prog to see further into the fightQuote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Also same, healing a WOW raid (WOD at the time of me switching over on the account I use now) was hella boring. I never made it to level 50 as WHM on my first account, but I did make it to 58 on SCH before even entering Ishgard on this account. Playing the class was fun enough for me to want to do Levelling roulette AND MSQ roulette AND Alliance roulette, every single day. Crazy, huh
My understanding of his issue with Barb is that because of his preference for the 'hard GCD heals' like Medica, the movement required in the fight screws over the cast times. Effectively, this means that making healers more reliant on said heals, would directly conflict with such a damage profile to heal (one of fast paced movement and small fast hits against the party). I think his preferred 'heal check' is the ones where you can stand and turret heals, like Styx, Harrowing Hell (normal mode), or things like True Walking Dead from SOS (the HP-to-1 thing). Again though, that goes back to what I said about the '3 kinds of heal check designs': Hit harder, hit faster, or prevent the player from healing. And that preference of 'stand still and pump' removes option 3 as a design choice, leaving us with 'hit harder' (which we tried with Abyssos), and 'hit faster' (which, without the movement restriction of Barb EX, probably doesn't do enough on it's own to impact much unless it's insanely fast). I wouldn't mind more GCD heals on WHM, I even suggested one. But I think that the ones with cast times, the basic crap like Medica, should be looked at as 'this is the last resort', not 'this is the peak of healer gameplay'. I find it more fun to effortlessly weave healing GCDs (Raptures) while moving to dodge Barb EX's Pantokrator thing, than to stand still for two whole seconds to Medica 2, and I'm quite sure a fairly sizeable portion of the playerbase would agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Imagine the lightning dogwolf thing in Aetherfont, the second boss. Every time it jumps, spins, whenever lightning AOEs appear on the floor, we could have it do 40% max HP damage to the party, every time, as a raidwide on top of 'actually dodge the lightning too'. It'd make you need to heal more, sure, but would it make the boss 'more fun'? I don't think it'd change the 'fun', it'd just change the button that you mash from Glare to Medica (and OOM you in less than 30s unless you change MP costs)
edit
I've literally only ever asked for what I've asked for. You might be conflating me asking for the 'now its' stuff, and/or people seeing that and going 'wow actually that sounds pretty cool i'd play that', with everyone who's disagreeing with you shifting positions over time to trend towards.. apparently my idea. Which makes me a cult leader of sorts I think. Shame, I'm really not big on 'leadership positions', I'm not a fan of the responsibility, but if it gets healers fixed I guess I'll carry the burdenQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Also, you vastly overestimate the additional complexity added by all that stuff. You have to remember that you're a level 90 WHM, you should have a solid grip on the current job design such that picking up the new changes is very intuitive, it just slots into your current knowledge as would an expansion's additions, or a patch note change for durations and CDs. And for the newer players starting after this change were implemented (eg if it were added in 7.0 and someone started in 7.2), the new durations would be starting from level 1/4/whenever low level you get those base skills, the gauge would be at level 50 (so they are introduced to systems over time, not all at once), and I don't even know what you mean by 'burst CDs'. Cleric? I dropped that from the design a couple months ago. But you also listed Dia at 18s where I ask for it to be 12 (and have done for a year), so I think maybe you're actually on about someone else's ideas. Or you've mixed mine with another, idk -
11-29-2023, 08:36 AMAravellThe 'hit faster' style isn't very interesting on its own either. As a SCH on Harrowing Hell (Savage), all you do is just stack everything, Soil, Expedient, Dissipation, Deploy at start, spam Succor as necessary, then Indom at the end after the knockback before the Bonds. Does it make you heal more? Yes. Is it interesting? Not really.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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11-29-2023, 08:44 AMty_taurusProbably one of my favorite boss mechanics in all of EW, and perhaps even ShB, is the thunderclouds in the fight with Shishio in Mount Rokkon, where there are dozens of thin line AoEs shooting all over the arena, and none of them hit all that hard even, but there's so many and they're all going off at different timers. Honestly having lots of line AoEs shooting all over is probably my favorite long-time mechanic. I vividly remember the first time I cleared Temple of Qarn in like the first week of the game's release and thinking dodging the lasers was so much fun and feeling exited to see other fights like that in the future. In hindsight, that mechanic is actually very slow, but when the game was less than a week old, it was exciting. Ultima Weapon EX did that also, and was much quicker, but Shishio brought it back in the best way. Imagine taking it one step further and you not only have all the little line AoEs, but the really massive ones are going off as well. Ugh, why can't we have more chaos mechanics where its technically all avoidable damage, but you're intended to get clipped a few times, and the damage of each clip isn't that dangerous, but the fact that it's different each time means how you heal it isn't the same every time either.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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11-29-2023, 08:50 AMOgruMogru
remember that time he made the thread asking if Sch would be happy with their SB kit back and when lots of people told him yes, he said they were wrong and they actually meant no? Sure he might advocate for Sch getting their kit back now, but this is the pattern I've seen repeatedly which riles me up at the very least and I've barely interacted at all. I've seen it happen with people going over and over every permutation of healer problems. Dismisses everyone else's PoV during a conversation only to turn around and use that same PoV at a later date to try to win arguments against a different set of people and it's ... vexing.
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11-29-2023, 09:08 AMRenathrasWhile I very much think that should be true - that we do something for the sake of people who like things now - that hasn't been true for months. I've been saying since the start of the year WHM having Aero 3 back is probably acceptable, even if I personally don't think it's the best idea, and I've moved even further towards the "more DPS" side by saying Dia with an 18 sec duration, too. My position now for WHM is literally "SB WHM's damage rotation + Misery and EW WHM's rest of the kit (healing/etc)". Which is literally what you guys were asking for a year or so ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Remember back when you guys were saying that? "We want the SB dps kits back on healers?" And now I'm saying to do JUST THAT VERY THING and being told off for it? To do even MORE than that since WHM with Misery + Aero 3 + SB Aero 2 is already more DPS button/rotation oriented than WHM was in SB? Where I've suggested SCH that is all of SB damage buttons back and a few more? Or that other SCH proposal I made that you guys even seemed to like?
I've moved towards your position from 2 years ago - and passed it - at this point.
Note that what you're asking for is more damage focused and more damage buttons/complexity than you guys were asking for 2 years back when "give us SB back" was the battlecry of the day.
Not only that, you do realize I've agreed with - and wasn't I the one who originally proposed? - Protect -> Plenary? o.O
"look more ridiculous", indeed...
I've never opposed that particular idea at any time.
How can you call my position a caricature and then say "You want White Mage as it is now. You'd tolerate a tiny bit of wiggle room overall, like returning Aero III, or giving Holy a single target conditional effect, but there's very little flexibility in what you find acceptable for White Mage." when my own position has traveled far from that and is actually more damage focused than what the Healer Forum was asking about at the time - which was "Can we just have Aero 3 back?", not to mention that being the single most requested thing for WHM in your surveys?Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Not only that, I didn't call you a "big bad DPS wannabe". Again, caricature.
It's like you don't even read my posts. You kind of skim them then think of what the most absurd thing I could have said or the most insulting possible interpretation of my posts could be - even if it's something I've outright rejected and debunked before - and then insist that's what it is. Moreover, when have I ever been "against a healer that buffs instead of attacks"? That's news to me! My main proposal for AST, when I make one, is to make the buffing a continuous part of its gameplay. As in, have the Cards have a 10 sec CD so you're constantly throwing out buffs. How is that being "against a healer that buffs instead of attacks", exactly? o.O
I didn't say BarbEx was overtuned on damage. I complained it was overtuned ON MOVEMENT, disallowing consistent access to GCD heals to heal the damage. Please at least get my arguments right...
And, likewise, I've never said that every heal should be DPS neutral. The CLOSEST thing to that I've suggested is if Lilies could be used on any WHM GCD heal (allowing us an even choice of which to use, not just Cure 2/Medica 1 every 20 sec), sort of like how SCH has a lot of different options for how to spend Aetherflow. Imagine if SCH/SCH only had Lustrate/Indom or Duro/Ixo and nothing else to spend AF/AG on. Wouldn't that be dull? And as you and I (and others) agree, Lilies are basically WHM's version of THAT, but can currently only be used on Cure 2 and Medica 1 (effectively). Such a change would allow all those dead GCDs to actually get use. As opposed to "we should just remove them all because they're a waste of hotbar space". Like Eukrasia, the concept is effectively getting more use out of buttons that would otherwise be unused.
You didn't even get my oGCD position right - I believe some people DO like a playstyle based on limited use oGCD heals and establishing healing plans, so I think there should be healer Jobs that function on "DPSer first, oGCD weaves for highly technical and planned healing to defeat encounters, with emergency fallback heals (e.g. Diagnosis/Prognosis) in cases of emergency or prog". I DO think overall oGCDs need to be toned down, but I ALSO think - 4 Healers Model and all - that retaining at least one healer with an oGC focused healing style would be beneficial, with SGE likely being the best option for that (due to a combination of Kardia and oGCD healing weaves).
I've argued with people WHO WANT A 10-20% GAP that that is too large and it SHOULD BE 1-3%. That's hardly "arguing over a 1-3% difference".
Now who's using the caricatures?
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I think I see why you really hate me all the time - you aren't arguing against me at all. You're arguing against a total boogieman that doesn't even share my positions that you mentally superimpose on top of me.
Except I DON'T constantly complain about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
The closest thing to something I constantly complain about is people attacking me and derailing threads. Not to mention that's a caricature you're making of my arguments WHILE decrying me complaining about caricatures being made of my arguments. XD Talk about proving me right by accident...
Hell, I wasn't the one that called you an elitist. YOU called YOURSELF an elitist. More specifically, you said I was stretching to call you an elitist when I...literally did not call you an elitist.
Again, when you MAKE UP things people didn't say to get mad at them over - and bring up in other conversations later as an attack on them - that's kind of messed up on your part. It certainly isn't on theirs since no one can prevent you from MAKING UP things to accuse them of saying other than recording literally every conversation ever, and even that can't prevent you from MAKING UP things, it can only defend against you having made them up.
And as for the gap - I'm glad you agree Ty's lying about it not being an argument over "1-3% difference", though you also left off the part where I explained to you from real life examples of narrowly clearing enrages that the damage in question is the difference between a clear and not. Instead of saying "Okay, so that does happen and on the margins it is relevant", you just continued to, like the Librarian at the Jedi Temple, say it doesn't happen because your math says it shouldn't matter. "Master Kenobi, if it's not in our records...then it doesn't exist!"
What part of "you guys, collectively" is difficult to understand?Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Also, is this where the "One of US!! One of US!!" chants begins? I haven't had enough kool-aid for that, I don't think.
Question to you: Would you, if it was offered today, reject Aero 3 + 18 sec Dia? Have you never asked for "healers to have their SB damage kits back"? (Why I say 18 sec is: That was the SB duration of Aero 2: https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/A...sion%20History
"Patch 4.0 Stormblood release:
Cast time has been made instant.
Damage over time duration increased from 12 to 18 seconds."
...hence I'm literally saying "People were asking for the SB healer DPS rotations for the last several YEARS, how about we do that?" "NOOO! You're a Sylphie that wants to be lazy and get clears and also you smell! Everyone laugh at Ren because I said he smelled! Look at all the Likes on my post for insulting Ren!!!"
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Plus side, at least you got my issue with Barb Ex correct, unlike a certain someone. Of all the people constantly bickering with me, and you CAN be snarky and over the top with sarcasm and caricature as well, but you typically are the most fair of an unfair lot, and I do genuinely appreciate that much.
It's also why I think the "Lilikrasia" idea has merit.
EDIT:
Oh, look, another lie. Good GOD you people have plenty. Seems to support my "you guys aren't arguing against me, you're arguing against your own made up strawmen/boogiemen".Quote:
Originally Posted by OgruMogru
I didn't say "they were wrong and they actually meant no".
I said people have been asking for exactly SB SCH and was pointing out that wasn't exactly what people really wanted. Because people weren't saying "yes". People were saying "Sorta, what I really want is that plus some other stuff". One of my annoyances in life is when people aren't honest about what they're asking for, or they're asking for something that they can leverage to get more later, or when they may not realize what they're asking for isn't really what they want.
The thread overall was "We would accept that, but we really want more".
WAY TO GO lying about yet another thing.
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If you guys spent as much time reading and bothering to try understanding what I'm saying as you spend apparently daydreaming alternate made up things for me to have said so you can not only lie about them then but lie about them later to make me look bad in completely unrelated threads with different groups of people in an effort at ad hominem fallacy and you look batter/more justified in doing so, I daresay we'd already have worked out a solution everyone can agree with!
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What's telling is that only Ty answered the question put back to you on what I really think, and even he couldn't do it right, instead ending up with a mix of caricature and lies. Even Roe couldn't get it right. And as Shurrikan pointed out, we've been having these arguments and discussions for 2 years. By now, you guys should be well versed in what I think, yet not ONE OF YOU managed to get it right of the few who even bothered trying to answer the question, and of those who did try, not only did they get it wrong (special mention to Roe for getting a separate thing, the BarbEx issue, right, at least), they presented my position from more than a year ago, ignoring how far I've shifted TOWARDS your argument with time while you guys have shifted EVEN FURTHER towards more DPS. And not one of you was able to present an "At your best", despite me at least offering you that.
Because I actually DO care about your needs and what you want and what you say you want on an overall level, collectively (and in some cases, individually), and I actually DO care about having a good faith discussion that may yield something useful of a way forward.
Unlike you lot, which...don't care at all. Not to understand and certainly not to compromise or offer compassion or some agreeable middle ground. Hell, my position is more pro-DPS than your own collective position was 2 years ago!
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ALSO:
WAY TO GO!!! YOU GUYS HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DERAILED YET ANOTHER THREAD!!!
Happy now?
You've managed to take yet another thread that was good discussion, with people presenting arguments and positions for various positions, and derailed it into whatever THIS toxic nonsense is. AGAIN!
And you wonder why Yoshi P doesn't listen to you and why some people aren't inclined to give you what you want... -
11-29-2023, 09:28 AMThurmnmurmn
Sometimes I wonder if Ren forgets what he writes in his other novels sometimes.
He constantly says we're lying but I could go back and find the quotes if I wanted to.
Kinda like how podcasters see a clip of themselves and are like "oh snap! I said that?". -
11-29-2023, 09:44 AMAravellQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
What's this? Renathras lying and gaslighting someone? THE IRONY!Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Anyway, thought you said you'd ignore me, why don't you do that? I no longer have a desire to engage in good faith with you after you slandered me and others to try and win an argument against Sebazy and then attacked my person unprovoked when we were just having a discussion.
Also, I love how when I mentioned your idea was dumb, you claimed I attacked you. But you don't see it as an attack when you call me selfish and elitist. Double standards much? -
11-29-2023, 09:52 AMSebazyCJ_Here_we_go_again.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Correction, WHM was locked out of the oGCD game, SCH was doing just fine swinging 2 distinct GCDs around.
Theorycrafting was absolutely not in it's infancy by HW, just look at the docs Solitude was putting out at the time. Fun fact, go watch Mr Happy talk about Bcob, then look at who's docs and guides he was referring to. If that's not enough, go look at stuff like Blue Gartr and whatnot. The actual theorycrafters mostly had a pretty solid handle on things by the time SCOB was rolling round (basically, people understood SMN by then). It just didn't really filter down until Gordias because it none of this really mattered outside of Coil, staying alive and pressing buttons was more important.
As for Gordias destroying the raid scene, eeeeehhhh, put it this way. After prog was done, I took a hiatus from the hardcore scene and joined team 3 in a substantial social FC called DiZ, we ended up getting 4 teams through Gordias from memory. Trying to suggest it nearly killed the game a second time is laughable. It was hard, it was very very hard, I'm not going to deny that. Yet IMHO Midas was every bit as rough, A6S was *FAR* more brutal than A2S ever was and yet you didn't see people trying to say that this tier also nearly killed the game? Why? People were just pissed that even A3S was annihilating them after we just came from T13 which I legit killed in DF. Did pre nerf T5 nearly kill the game too? What about SCOB Savage? Remember how comically evil that was? Oh....
Healer DPS is still irrelevant outside of Savage to this day. Extremes are tuned to be killed with minutes to spare if people stay alive and do a bang average job of holding their rotations and GCDs. As for why healer dps has steadily become the norm, IMO it's a combination of barriers of entry being removed. Cleric Stance was the big one, but fights being slower and more visibly choreographed is another factor, as is much more abundant self sustained MP resources that aren't reliant on Ballad/Bishop anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
If WHM got Aero 3 or an equivalent back coupled with an 18 second Dia adjustment and a replacement for Fluid Aura, I'd honestly be pretty happy. Don't get me wrong, I'd be sad that we didn't get a thundercloud proc (Maybe that could turn Dia into an oGCD proc to fill the Fluid Aura oGCD slot without needing another button++) but I'd absolutely grab that with both hands over what we have now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
We were at 2/3rds of our GCDs being required to keep up with sustained healing. If you slash the healer's potency in half again, how do you think that's going to work? The math doesn't math sir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Serious question, do you think that healers spammed heals on the GCD in Coil? This applies to both WHM and SCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
What?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
https://www.resetera.com/threads/ex-...lopment.63594/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comm...wildstar_fail/
Development was a disaster, the launch was a mess, unlocking content was a nightmare etcetc. But the art style was a cause for it's downfall?
And anyway, I'm not even sure what the point of your comment is? I'm not going to sit here and preach that Warhammer Online was a perfect MMO because it absolutely wasn't. PvE content had the depth of a dinner plate, class balance was pretty awful and EA got cold feet leading into pulling the plug pretty much right out of the gate before Mythic ever really had time to straighten the game out post launch. What Warhammer did have though, was masterfully designed healers, and what Wildstar had was a level cap gameplay loop that pretty much excluded people that weren't willing to knuckle down and put some serious effort in. Thus here I am making the comments that I have.
I'm not throwing out your argument by way of comparing it to wild star, I'm highlighting that your idea of a sustained healing floor is comparable to round the clock Harrowing Hell Normal and that is all that needs to be said. IMHO it would be complete carnage not to mention that it's not really a design philosophy that can be applied to the entire game. Let's not lose sight of what I'm responding to here:
Thus no, by your own words, just increasing healing requirements isn't viable as a fix all. IMHO there isn't a single magic bullet that can get healers out of the hole SE has gradually dug for them over the years. Healing needs a fundamental rethink across the board, that includes incoming damage, our kits to deal with it, the utility we can provide to the group when there isn't anything to heal etcetc. The whole damn role needs to be nuked to the ground and reworked from a clean slate IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Oh really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
https://www.returnofreckoning.com -
11-29-2023, 10:02 AMkyyninen_kirahvi
I refuse to take part of your drama. Instead I try to answer what's asked.
Out of those two options I'd prefer the second, sprinkled with a bit of the first. There is a need to make healing better and make the solo experience better.Quote:
Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull
At the moment the healer jobs have really no other direction but to embrace DPS complexity. I'd really much like to heal, but I feel like there is no space for more heal actions atm... I'd even rather have buffs of all kind, but DPS seems to be something Squre would more likely do.
I will continue to advocate more DPS to Sage. It needs them. -
11-29-2023, 10:08 AMNamiRocketIt's an MMORPG. It's not supposed to be brain dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
I don't think it's asking a lot to want the gameplay loop for healers to be more engaging than spamming an extremely limited toolbox of DPS abilities 70% of the time, setting up your group with HoTs, shields/mitigations, and/or procs 20% of the time (mostly so you have to actively heal less), and actual healing when a mistake is made the last 10%. I don't think it's super hardcore or out of touch to suggest that the gameplay loop of healing in FFXIV could be made a little more complex and engaging than it currently is without pushing away newer players. -
11-29-2023, 10:16 AMIDontPetLalas
I just want to add one comment as Sebazy said, "Wildstar had was a level cap gameplay loop that pretty much excluded people that weren't willing to knuckle down and put some serious effort in" - having played Wildstar, this is absolutely, 100 % percent correct. While that game's style wasn't universally popular, what really killed it was the brutal investment that end-game raids required- not to mention the numbers required for some raids (much more than FFXIV), so getting that commitment from so many people was not easy - at least at the point that I left.
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11-29-2023, 10:22 AMSaraideThe skill range between good and bad players is large. Just last week I saw one of the 3 alliances wipe to the exploding water sprites in thaleia. You'd be gating a lot of new players out long before you reach spicy levels for experienced healers. The devs are sort of willing to do that for savage as we have seen with harrowing hell. But doing that in normal will have consequences.Quote:
Originally Posted by NamiRocket
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11-29-2023, 10:28 AMSebazyIndeed. There's a balance to be struck here, IMO SE has gone a bit too far down the braindead road at times which has caused a weird situation where the difficulty floor in mainstream endgame content pretty much begins and ends with finding the DF queue button. When the challenge entails merely not getting kicked for inactivity, even the easiest Extreme is going to be a shock to the system coming from that.Quote:
Originally Posted by NamiRocket
My biggest problems with these sorts of debates is that we always see people trying to push one extreme or another, trying to push a black and white solution as the answer when it really isn't.
Despite what some might want to take away from my boring essay above, I'm not trying to suggest that healing requirements shouldn't be increased. They absolutely should. Whomever signed off Byregot should have an incoming damage timeline emailed to them as a daily digest to remind them never to allow anything like that near the live servers again.
The thing is, there's only so much mileage you can get out that alone. If we really want to solve healer gameplay once and for all, more things need to change, not least the design philosophy SE's job design team uses when they tackle healers. We need something more interesting to do when all the healing is done. It doesn't even have to be DPS. It just needs to be A) Engaging and B) Worthwhile. -
11-29-2023, 10:28 AMThurmnmurmnThat just reminds me of the communities reaction to the dead ends dungeon at the beginning of EW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraide
People were freaking out that the mechs were too hard. When it really wasn't, it was simply something new for normals (talking about the second bosses wind mech).
People in normals don't want to think (sadly) -
11-29-2023, 11:00 AMForsakenRoeYou remember that time a month or so ago, when people said you don't seem to be actually reading anyone's responses properly, and you hit everyone with the 'no u' and accused us of not reading things?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I am indeed aware of who first came up with the idea, and even mentioned as much, as shown in bold. So why are you asking me if I realise that you agree with your own idea? It's times like this that lend credence to the idea that you just hit a certain point in a post that you disagree with (for example, Dia at 12s duration), and you feel compelled to post to rebut everything up to that point without bothering to read the rest, to see if it got addressed at a later part of the postQuote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
'look more ridiculous' indeed x2
It happens every expansion, but there always seems to be a crowd who see the gameplay from the media tour dungeons from the influencers and go 'ooh look how much we have to heal', like Tower of Zot apparently was going to stomp our heads in with how hard everything hits. Well, fast forward and anyone who hits 82 on tank and gets their upgraded mit (Holy Sheltron etc) goes from 'damn this does kinda slap' to 'this is easy street', except DRK who apparently doesn't get to join the other tanks in being completely busted in selfsustain (only on damage, and even then only when daddy SE lets them for one patch, as a treat)Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn
I guarantee we're gonna see the same thing again, reveals of some new healing tools and some goobs on reddit will insist 'no no, the point has been made and been wrong 3 times in a row now, but THIS time, they're gonna make us heal so much you won't even have time to reach for that Glare button!'. And then we'll hit level 92-93 and the difficulty will immediately fall off a cliff, just like it always does. It's part of why 'healing requirements adjusted' can't be the only factor in the 'solution', gear and levelling causes us to outscale the difficulty presented by the healing requirements way too fast. What is hard as hell to heal in Savage at Min ILVL (640 this tier) becomes a joke at 660 (current BIS) and that's just a 20 ILVL gap. We can have like 40 ILVL difference between our gear and what an EX roulette dungeon asks for as minimum (for people trying to catch up), so we're always going to have some players (the ones who do the harder content, get better gear, and therefore most likely to be desirous of these changes) outscale these dungeons and the difficulty presented by alarming amounts. And I'm sure we can all agree, we shouldn't be designing the heal checks in Lunar Subterrene around someone having P12S BIS, so how do we make someone who IS in P12S BIS feel engaged in that dungeon using just healing changes? The answer is, we can't, not with just the healing -
11-29-2023, 11:05 AMAravellMy main problem with certain arguments is that they push the increase of healing requirements as the only possible solution, well, some would be satisfied if that happens, but the people who dislike the current 2 button DPS kit would still be dissatisfied, possibly for another 2-4 years because SE is very, very slow at making changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
I can understand that people want to see the thing they want the most, but my main question is, what possible good reason is there for blocking the evolution of the damage kit while evolving the healing kit other than "I don't like doing damage"? -
11-29-2023, 11:14 AMForsakenRoeFurther to this post, decided to make good on what I said. Here is our current rotation, using Stone and Aero for icons instead of Glare/Dia because all the blues just blend together (assume we're at level 70 and doing UCOB or something). The listed actions take place over a roughly 3 minute time frame (I probably should have done 4 lines, to make it a 2min loop but oh well)Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
https://i.gyazo.com/ab769cd1bed4aa4b...a3ca2b1234.png
Man oh man that's a lot of Stones. We can replace any three Stone casts in this per minute (displayed as two full lines) with Solace/Rapture, and one in raidbuffs with Misery, but that is not shown here as A: it's versatile in the timing of when you do it in your 'rotation', and B: this is just to illustrate the 'core gameplay loop' without all the fancy schmancy optimizations. Anyway, here's Fig B. The Tetragrammaton icon represents 'Water', the 15s GCD.
https://i.gyazo.com/9c083c86f1bcdc2f...057d5ce542.png
Again, three Stones can be removed per minute to make way for Solace/Rapture, one in raidbuffs for a Misery, if timings mean that a Water/Aero is 'replaced', then that Water/Aero gets bumped down the timeline by one GCD and the Stone that is now in the way gets removed instead. Additionally, if so desired for optimization's sake, one Stone can be removed per minute to use the funny gauge spender heal, and three more to use Quake, Flood and Tornado (which is done by doing the same rotation admittedly, but at least it looks different)
Need I say more? Because I will, don't tempt me -
11-29-2023, 11:41 AMRolder50
The problem with #2 asking for more complicated healing actions is that the way they design fights just doesn't work with complicated healing. There's not enough damage, not enough variations of -how- fights do damage, and everything is far too formulaic.