Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

That's what I'm thinking as well. Back in sb, i used to run df roulettes with some raiders from my fc back then and rarely did we run into players being detrimental to the run or sub performing badly. They just used regular rotations, they used most of their job kit, nothing optimal but even that was more than enough. Today, nothing's really changed from those times.

Something is not being said or admitted from those people who have bad luck every day or run into terribad skilled players everyday. Like honestly, every day man? If that's true, my condolences to that person's headstate. Imagine selecting a roulette and already dreading with disappointment and having votekick on speedial

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Pretty much exactly as you say. I have, in the last 3 months leveled 2 healers, 2 tanks and 3 DPS jobs, all through a combination of DF and Deep Dungeons.. I can count the amount of times I've had to stop and vote kick someone on one hand. And that is with dozens of DF runs every day. Yes, occasionally you'll have a tank who needs to be poked a few times to turn on their stance, particularly in the <30 dungeons. Occasionally you'll have someone who thinks they're a red tank and pull everything, you either give them a poke, asking them to stop it and let tank pull, or as I have at times, just let them die as healer and then kindly ask them to stop rushing ahead. My experience is that they usually listen once they behold the results of their conduct.. it's exceedingly rare that I get someone who ignores me and keeps doing the same thing.

It is to some degree a matter of perspective and 'give and take', I see multiple people in the thread, OP off course being the most notable, speak of leechers, underperformers and such.. and I say again.. if that is someone's experience every single day.. then you're seeing things that aren't there. You're seeing a 'leecher' where there isn't one, you're seeing someone who is playing poorly and assuming the worst, in the case of OP in particular that seems to be their default stance.. they're not performing to my standards? They must be a malicious leecher looking for a carry.. rather than perhaps a first timer, or someone who simply cannot play optimally due to perhaps a disability or any other reason that isn't 'they're just being lazy bastards'.

Ultimately it is very simple, OP: You use Duty Finder? Then you accept that you do not have full control over the quality of your teammates or the experience you have. No, we don't need 'tiered duty finder'. No, we don't need 'auto kick if you don't meet some arbitrary standard dictated by the great Caurcas'. If you cannot accept or tolerate that you will have to deal with subpar players, people who for whatever reason aren't meeting the bar you set. Queue for DF as a premade, OP, we keep saying it, the only reason you keep ignoring it is because it's not the answer you want

Post limit sorry

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Originally Posted by Vinupra-Rosa

Okay. I see the game you're playing (well, a post behind) and no. Seen it before, and you're not playing it with me. No number of times of you insisting ad nauseam that 'it's the will of the party!' and 'sorry it's just speculation' and 'no it was speculation not observation' will change the following things:

1. You outright stated, without ambiguity, an observation that if you are tank or healer, the rest of the party is inclined to go through with any votations you may initiate and then suggested that one use this to their advantage. It doesn't matter what you speculate the reasons for this observation may be. You observed such a phenomenon occuring and whether or not it is indeed true matters less than the fact that you have made this initial statement of your observation, followed by that specific recommendation.

2. You also outright stated that you bring along a friend for the sole purpose of having votation majority. This is a direct admission to your intention to rig the votation in your favour. Therefore any sort of 'but they are part of the party too' excuse becomes outright invalid, as does 'I cannot be sure why the votation goes through'. Don't be coy; you outright stated your intentions, and whether or not in practice your friend will actually assist you in votations matters less than this fact. You know what you're doing.

3. You assert that 'vote kicks succeeding is the will of the party', and normally that would be true. However, this is debased by the fact that you have made points 1 and 2:

You have admitted to observing that tank and healer vote kicks tend to go through and outright encouraged taking advantage of that. Whether or not this observation is true matters less than the fact that you have made this initial observation -and thus admit an awareness to a potential on your end to sway votes in your favour- and suggested its exploitation.

You also admit your intent to preemptively sway the vote in your favour by having a friend 'help' you and, again, whether or not your friend actually helps you matters less than the fact that are aware that you can ensure vote majority by having a friend by your side, and are admitting to having taken advantage of that.

And yes in FFXIV the rules for votation in light parties are 3 voting against one -- but in effect, if you have a friend with you then your kick is all but assured to go through. It's rigging, plain and simple, and it's no different from any other sort of vote-rigging. And of course, if someone disagrees with a kick they can leave -and I've seen this- but more people would be inclined to grit their teeth and quietly endure the run than queue again. Does not necessarily mean they don't disagree.

If it were someone else who had stated 'it's the will of the party!' or you have not made points 1 and 2 before, then there would be more validity to the assertion that vote kicks going through is the 'will of the party' - - as it is, what matters is you have said these things beforehand. You have intent. You are aware of what you're doing - or at least think so, whether or not it is so.

And yes, quietly rigged votes to an abusive kick cannot be proved without someone admitting in chat. That is exactly why this sort of rule-breaking is particularly insidious.

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My assertion is that the outcome of a vote is the will of the party. It is a objective yes no response. The reasoning or potential manipulation be it by stacking the vote or through means of peer pressure are largely irrelevant and moot because the validity of those claims cannot be tested within the scope of the information we have now. An observation based on the information gathered can lead to speculation or assertion. I do not have enough evidence outside my own personal experience to make the claim that tank and healers factual get favorable outcomes. I do have information to make the assertion based off the voting system in FFXIV the outcome is considered to be the will of the group.

You were the one that viewed my claim as a factual statement regarding tank and healer getting g more positive outcomes. Sure I mentioned that a tank and healer tend to get favorable outcomes with votes swinging in their favor and I did encourage people to do so for themselves. Though it is no guarantee that others will have the same experience. I have never credited my experience as a baseline to go by so at best you can use my own experience as anecdotal evidence though by most people standards anecdotal evidence is rarely ever enough to outright debunk a claim. It needs supporting data, and sadly we do not have such data thus leaving the point in the realm of speculation.

I also said sure I bring a friend to stack the vote in my favor but the reality is my friend still has their own will. So we also have no way to know if my presence was enough to sway their vote one way or another. Most my claims can be used to as a means to attack my character but they do not Inherently go against or weaknen the claim that the outcome of the vote in FFXIV is the will of the group as per how voting works in it's current state.

In the end as mentioned I can only go based off my own experience, others may very well have a different experience with how successful their votes are. In the end you have yet to debunk the claim that operating within the voting system of the game how the vote outcome is not the will of the group. You have pointed out reasons why it is flawed but the flaws are irrelevant because we can only operate within the system that we have present.

Also my intentions are my own, and my intentions do not inherently discredit the claim that the outcome of the vote is the will of the group. Cause I can have all the intent to sway the outcome but without proof to support that it does do such outside my own anecdotal evidence does not seem strong enough to debunk the assertion set by the standards of the current voting system.

Anecdotes are funny like that, my views are my own I try to keep my own personal experience separate from my argumentative claims. Granted I know it can be difficult with my poor writing and stuff.

Also please note it is not a game you were the one that made the claim my personal experience is enough to weaken my stance regarding party outcomes. Which based off my understand of english I am also esl it does not seem to work that way cause I never stated that my own view experience was a factual outcome.

In the end you are using my own anecdotal evidence and observations / intentions as a means to say it weaknenes my claim regarding the vote outcome being the will of the group. Sure an argument can be made that my use us flawed but the burden is on you to prove the claim that my intentions did have in fact swayed the outcome of the votes which is hard to prove.

That is why I try to keep my own personal experience separate from my assertions of fact cause often my actions differ since I am not very logically constant.

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Originally Posted by Vinupra-Rosa

You are, once more, moving in circles and missing the point entirely. Let me rephrase then:

The assertion from you that votations are the will of the party is weakened by an awareness you have indicated prior to having made said assertion of your role as tank or healer influencing whether or not others will agree with the votation or not. It doesn't need to be factually true - what matters is that you have expressed awareness and advocated for the exploitation of a supposed phenomenon that would supposedly influence the decision of the party.

And this is incredibly important. If it were someone else who had brought up the 'will of the party' argument, or if you had not made this statement beforehand then the 'will of the party' argument would have firmer ground to stand on.

Second, you have also demonstrated awareness that entering as a premade is wont to turn votations in your favour. There may be a potential for your friend to refuse to comply but, let's be honest, it would be dishonest to dismiss the very real bias that friendship (or at least acquaintanceship) brings, as well as the potential emotional pressure that may force them to agree.

And, again, what matters here is that you have demonstrated awareness on factors that would help influence votes in your favour and had admitted to taking advantage of the same / encouraging others to take advantage of it. This simple fact debases that particular argument from you.

Is it the will of the party if a vote kick succeeds? Possibly, but there are things you can do beforehand to influence the system, and phenomena you can take advantage of. And, again, for the hundredth time, you have demonstrated awareness of such means (and I can think of a few others you have not mentioned). This is what weakens this particular statement as coming from you.

Though of course, even if it weren't you saying this, acknowledging the second point - the influence of premades on votes - is enough to reasonably weaken the 'will of the party' argument. It's also well-known, and had been cause for several people I know to wish premade votes counted as one to avoid abuse.

Also I know the 'game' - - - and it takes on the form of purposefully dancing around the point, missing it and trying to attack it from seemingly related angles. I've seen it too many times in online arguments, and it's a scummy little practice.

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This is the thing I never stated my own personal experience was the bases of which I formulated my argument that was all on you. As mentioned you made the choice to use my own anecdotal experience as a means to weaken my claim when I do not recall clearly stating that both were formed in tandem. One can exist without the other you. You made the assertion that my experience weakens it but once again the burden is on to prove it to be the case to prove a connection since you were the one that made the choice to draw the claim. To me that is scummy since your point of what you are arguing against my point is using my own anecdotal experience / intention which was never the bases of my argument.

This is mainly why I dislike doing online debates over forums without having a clear premise for the argument it creates this weird back and forth. I also tend to view them as standalone experiences.

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Originally Posted by Awha

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You are, once more, moving in circles and missing the point entirely. Let me rephrase then:

The assertion from you that votations are the will of the party is weakened by an awareness you have indicated prior to having made said assertion of your role as tank or healer influencing whether or not others will agree with the votation or not. It doesn't need to be factually true - what matters is that you have expressed awareness and advocated for the exploitation of a supposed phenomenon that would supposedly influence the decision of the party.

And this is incredibly important. If it were someone else who had brought up the 'will of the party' argument, or if you had not made this statement beforehand then the 'will of the party' argument would have firmer ground to stand on.

Second, you have also demonstrated awareness that entering as a premade is wont to turn votations in your favour. There may be a potential for your friend to refuse to comply but, let's be honest, it would be dishonest to dismiss the very real bias that friendship (or at least acquaintanceship) brings, as well as the potential emotional pressure that may force them to agree.

And, again, what matters here is that you have demonstrated awareness on factors that would help influence votes in your favour and had admitted to taking advantage of the same / encouraging others to take advantage of it. This simple fact debases that particular argument from you.

Is it the will of the party if a vote kick succeeds? Possibly, but there are things you can do beforehand to influence the system, and phenomena you can take advantage of. And, again, for the hundredth time, you have demonstrated awareness of such means (and I can think of a few others you have not mentioned). This is what weakens this particular statement as coming from you.

Though of course, even if it weren't you saying this, acknowledging the second point - the influence of premades on votes - is enough to reasonably weaken the 'will of the party' argument. It's also well-known, and had been cause for several people I know to wish premade votes counted as one to avoid abuse.

Also I know the 'game' - - - and it takes on the form of purposefully dancing around the point, missing it and trying to attack it from seemingly related angles. I've seen it too many times in online arguments, and it's a scummy little practice.

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Originally Posted by Vinupra-Rosa

words

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Just thought I'd give you a heads up cause the whole thing got old quite a few pages back but Awha doesn't care he just likes to argue. Dude will argue anyone in circles for eternity about anything.

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Originally Posted by hobostew

Just thought I'd give you a heads up cause the whole thing got old quite a few pages back but Awha doesn't care he just likes to argue. Dude will argue anyone in circles for eternity about anything.

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Ah, noted -- thanks for the heads-up. I've been in the game for a while, but am relatively new to the forums so I don't know that much about the personalities around here.

I've been starting to notice that much though, and it's become frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Vinupra-Rosa

You are, once more, moving in circles and missing the point entirely. Let me rephrase then:

The assertion from you that votations are the will of the party is weakened by an awareness you have indicated prior to having made said assertion of your role as tank or healer influencing whether or not others will agree with the votation or not. It doesn't need to be factually true - what matters is that you have expressed awareness and advocated for the exploitation of a supposed phenomenon that would supposedly influence the decision of the party.

And this is incredibly important. If it were someone else who had brought up the 'will of the party' argument, or if you had not made this statement beforehand then the 'will of the party' argument would have firmer ground to stand on.

Second, you have also demonstrated awareness that entering as a premade is wont to turn votations in your favour. There may be a potential for your friend to refuse to comply but, let's be honest, it would be dishonest to dismiss the very real bias that friendship (or at least acquaintanceship) brings, as well as the potential emotional pressure that may force them to agree.

And, again, what matters here is that you have demonstrated awareness on factors that would help influence votes in your favour and had admitted to taking advantage of the same / encouraging others to take advantage of it. This simple fact debases that particular argument from you.

Is it the will of the party if a vote kick succeeds? Possibly, but there are things you can do beforehand to influence the system, and phenomena you can take advantage of. And, again, for the hundredth time, you have demonstrated awareness of such means (and I can think of a few others you have not mentioned). This is what weakens this particular statement as coming from you.

Though of course, even if it weren't you saying this, acknowledging the second point - the influence of premades on votes - is enough to reasonably weaken the 'will of the party' argument. It's also well-known, and had been cause for several people I know to wish premade votes counted as one to avoid abuse.

Also I know the 'game' - - - and it takes on the form of purposefully dancing around the point, missing it and trying to attack it from seemingly related angles. I've seen it too many times in online arguments, and it's a scummy little practice.

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This is the thing I never stated my own personal experience was the bases of which I formulated my argument that was all on you. As mentioned you made the choice to use my own anecdotal experience as a means to weaken my claim when I do not recall clearly stating that both were formed in tandem. One can exist without the other you. You made the assertion that my experience weakens it but once again the burden is on to prove it to be the case to prove a connection since you were the one that made the choice to draw the claim. To me that is scummy since your point of what you are arguing against my point is using my own anecdotal experience / intention which was never the bases of my argument.

Also my friends are not shy to go against each other but we are also on the toxic side of things so I would personally never assume I have any say in their vote. That is why as mentioned both views are independent of one another, though since you wish to use my own experience as mentioned you have to proce the connection that supports your claim against my own experience. I did not connect the two because my experience will differ from others.

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Originally Posted by Vinupra-Rosa

Ah, noted -- thanks for the heads-up. I've been in the game for a while, but am relatively new to the forums so I don't know that much about the personalities around here.

I've been starting to notice that much though, and it's become frustrating.

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It is frustrating when people try to use a separate point that cannot be proven as a grounds to support a claim. My claim was a simple one the outcome of vote is the will of the party. Yet you choose to use my own anecdotal experience which even I cannot prove or disprove as a grounds to support your claim that it is not the will of the group under the voting standards set in FFXIV.

Even if I grant that all you do is prove my manipulation of the system which is in itself does not deter from the claim in my opinion I made regarding the will of the group being expressed through the vote.

Sure the system may be flawed but under the current system as stated the only objective metric we can go by is the outcome of the vote. How we wish or desire the system to work is kinda moot. Cause the reality is that is the only hard and fast standard we can really go by. I am willing to have a discussion on other ways we can measure the standard. Though as it stands only way we have is the vote feature.

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

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/applause

Honestly I think OP is just on a trip to indirectly praise themselves. It's pretty awful they view anyone underperforming as a leecher.

We don't know these strangers we're grouped up with. They might not have played that class in a long time, they might not have done that instance in a long while, they might be tired after a long day, they might be having a bad day, they might be disabled so it limits what they can do, or that performance that you think isn't great could actually be their best. I usually give people the benefit of the doubt. During my time in mmos I have personally known some bad players and among all of them only ONE was intentionally leeching. The rest lacked knowledge, experience or had a low skill ceiling. The first two can be fixed, but the last one...well not everyone is fortunate enough to have a natural ability for this sort of game. Personally in DF I'm happy as long as no one's performance is causing trouble that forces someone to work much harder, and as we know in DF the game doesn't require greatness for success. I reserve my higher expectations for ex and savage because that content demands it. In normal mode my expectations are not high because they don't need to be.

Some people here need to adjust their expectations and stop assuming the worst possible scenario for anyone not playing well. And for those who cannot well you can make a premade group. It's not as if the tools aren't there for you to get the experience you want.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

/applause

Honestly I think OP is just on a trip to indirectly praise themselves. It's pretty awful they view anyone underperforming as a leecher.

We don't know these strangers we're grouped up with. They might not have played that class in a long time, they might not have done that instance in a long while, they might be tired after a long day, they might be having a bad day, they might be disabled so it limits what they can do, or that performance that you think isn't great could actually be their best. I usually give people the benefit of the doubt. During my time in mmos I have personally known some bad players and among all of them only ONE was intentionally leeching. The rest lacked knowledge, experience or had a low skill ceiling. The first two can be fixed, but the last one...well not everyone is fortunate enough to have a natural ability for this sort of game. Personally in DF I'm happy as long as no one's performance is causing trouble that forces someone to work much harder, and as we know in DF the game doesn't require greatness for success. I reserve my higher expectations for ex and savage because that content demands it. In normal mode my expectations are not high because they don't need to be.

Some people here need to adjust their expectations and stop assuming the worst possible scenario for anyone not playing well. And for those who cannot well you can make a premade group. It's not as if the tools aren't there for you to get the experience you want.

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I've not once praised myself in this thread. Like I said several pages ago, I am average at best amongst my peers. It is objective fact that if you are not contributing to the best of your ability you are leeching. While there are valid excuses for this, they are absurdly rare. The majority of the time it is pure laziness. That's what boggles my mind, it is absurdly easy to be decent at this game yet a large portion actively chose not to be. Furthermore, I refuse to accept "DF is just bad, just deal with it" as the status quo.

I've been playing MMOs since 1999 and none of this is new. This is MMOs and the internet in general.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I've not once praised myself in this thread.

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I said indirectly praising yourself, which is what you're doing by making it seem you encounter an incredible amount of "leechers" who supposedly play far below your skill level.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Like I said several pages ago, I am average at best amongst my peers.

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All this says is "I'm not the best" which could mean literally any skill level.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

It is objective fact that if you are not contributing to the best of your ability you are leeching.

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How do you know if a random person is intentionally leeching? Are you a mind reader?

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

While there are valid excuses for this, they are absurdly rare.

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Again, are you a mind reader?

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

The majority of the time it is pure laziness.

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See above.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

it is absurdly easy to be decent at this game yet a large portion actively chose not to be.

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It's clear you have trouble grasping the fact that what you find easy isn't the case for everyone else. I'm not saying this game is difficult but what I am saying is that my performance on a bad day is someone else's best. We're not all on equal footing. People have different talents, experiences and flaws. But I don't think you care ;D

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Originally Posted by Penthea

/applause

Honestly I think OP is just on a trip to indirectly praise themselves. It's pretty awful they view anyone underperforming as a leecher.

We don't know these strangers we're grouped up with. They might not have played that class in a long time, they might not have done that instance in a long while, they might be tired after a long day, they might be having a bad day, they might be disabled so it limits what they can do, or that performance that you think isn't great could actually be their best. I usually give people the benefit of the doubt. During my time in mmos I have personally known some bad players and among all of them only ONE was intentionally leeching. The rest lacked knowledge, experience or had a low skill ceiling. The first two can be fixed, but the last one...well not everyone is fortunate enough to have a natural ability for this sort of game. Personally in DF I'm happy as long as no one's performance is causing trouble that forces someone to work much harder, and as we know in DF the game doesn't require greatness for success. I reserve my higher expectations for ex and savage because that content demands it. In normal mode my expectations are not high because they don't need to be.

Some people here need to adjust their expectations and stop assuming the worst possible scenario for anyone not playing well. And for those who cannot well you can make a premade group. It's not as if the tools aren't there for you to get the experience you want.

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Yep. Time and time again these sorts of complaints come up and it's obvious the people complaining consider that these people are doing things on purpose and spitefully to ruin their run. They forget there is a human being behind the avatar.

its not easy you gotta memorize all 100 dungeons or however many there are all 300 bosses their mechanics how to counter their mechanics on top of memorizing you skills order and dodging aoes and if you are a person who can only learn by playing its tons of work

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Originally Posted by Sigma5

its not easy you gotta memorize all 100 dungeons or however many there are all 300 bosses their mechanics how to counter their mechanics on top of memorizing you skills order and dodging aoes and if you are a person who can only learn by playing its tons of work

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Eh, it's not quite that complicated. Is there a lot of dungeons? Yes. Is there a lot of bosses? Yes. But there's only a few actually unique mechanics spread amongst them all. Most mechanics have been repeated many times already, so it's less about memorizing hundreds of bosses and more about saying "Oh that again? Okay, I'll move here."

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Eh, it's not quite that complicated. Is there a lot of dungeons? Yes. Is there a lot of bosses? Yes. But there's only a few actually unique mechanics spread amongst them all. Most mechanics have been repeated many times already, so it's less about memorizing hundreds of bosses and more about saying "Oh that again? Okay, I'll move here."

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Precisely the majority of existing mechanic from beginning. Mostly they are just painted differently so it gave people the illusion of said mechanic being unique, but they’re actually not.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Precisely the majority of existing mechanic from beginning. Mostly they are just painted differently so it gave people the illusion of said mechanic being unique, but they’re actually not.

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Two days ago i stood in my kitchen trying to remember where the can opener was, five minutes after I put it back in the drawer.

We ALL have days like that :o:o:o

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Eh, it's not quite that complicated. Is there a lot of dungeons? Yes. Is there a lot of bosses? Yes. But there's only a few actually unique mechanics spread amongst them all. Most mechanics have been repeated many times already, so it's less about memorizing hundreds of bosses and more about saying "Oh that again? Okay, I'll move here."

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Ehhhh, sometimes DF just put you on something that you haven't played in a loooooooooooooooooooooooooong time and it can be difficult to remember which way goes where when that happens.

Like I always groaned whenever the DF putting me in many of the Omega raids since most of them are just one playthrough only and yeah.

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Originally Posted by LaughingBanana

Ehhhh, sometimes DF just put you on something that you haven't played in a loooooooooooooooooooooooooong time and it can be difficult to remember which way goes where when that happens.

Like I always groaned whenever the DF putting me in many of the Omega raids since most of them are just one playthrough only and yeah.

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this but with the ivalice raids

I get them like once every two and a half months and immediately forgot what all the bosses do

Oh, and I kinda want to laugh at the suggestion of tiered DF suggestion, as in "Df for the Experts" or somesuch.

As if you're special, as if you're this 'gifted' ones, lol, like what would you do if you are considered as suck ass by people in there? What if in actually you suck compared to them?

Or alternatively, even if such thing exist, you will still continue to bitch anyways saying "oh these people in the DF for experts are not as good as me, smh, I'm so great, they suck, they can't compare to me" and proceed to ask Square to make "God level DF" or somesuch and repeat the cycle all over again.

In other words: considering such things is a complete waste of time, because no matter what Square do they can't possibly satisfy an ego the size of universe of someone like you, oh the Best God Player of FFXIV In the History of Mankind with No Comparison. You will keep demeaning others and view them as the lesser version of you because that is exactly the thing that you want to do the most, you are getting dopamine by considering the others are lesser than you.

I mean for God's sake, I know that I haven't played as long as long as many of you but yeah, I have been here for a while (just got the Parade Chocobo for 3000 comms, yey!) doing DF for hundreds if not thousands of times for all kinds of content and the amount of people actually sucking so terribly bad they can't count 1+1 is 2 *and* not wanting to receive suggestion in DF are just really a handful. I just laughed at these overblown statement by folks saying they encountered them so often like 50-70% of the time and somesuch, goddamn calm down you massive ego for a bit please; and please consider maybe develop some compassion and empathy to your fellow humans while you're at it.

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Originally Posted by WoW

I never heard of a mentor doing their job.

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I have.

One mentor told my husband, who had joined a level 30+ duty finder as an arcanist to do the summoner quest.

This has been completely derailed, as usual , off of the initial discussion that was the community fostering and propagating a culture of not meeting the bare minimum, into "You are unreasonably mad because a NIN in Ex Roulette popped a bunny".
Look at that strawman burn.
The regulars of these forums make discussions about anything slightly controversial or unpleasant completely impossible, 100% proving OP's point.

Not that discussion about this is going to do anything, clearly this is intended.
From the Easy and Very Easy modes in quest scenarios (which almost autocompleted in most cases on normal) to the oppressive and unreasonable in-game moderation which covers, verbatim: "Difference of Thinking", it's pretty clear that this is exactly the sort of atmosphere that is wanted by the developers.
And that's really unfortunate.

Note : I didn't read the whole thread here. So I may repeat some stuff that was already mentioned.

First I'm on the side of "underperforming player shall improve them self or be punished". But we're speaking about a game, and in such an environement, such "punishement" should not be a thing. Because people's entertain themself differently, depending of their own personnality.

But I'm not worried about this for FFXIV because this will go against the main philosophy of SE, which is, let's face it, make as much money as possible. The main strategy they follow to achieve this goal is to attract as much people as possible. And the allowance of the "enable culture" is a direct consequence of this. By letting everybody do what ever they want, they will stick around, pay their sub, buy in the cash shop, buy goodies, attract more people, etc. It's that simple.

So the "enable culture" won't go away officialy. Now with what I read here, almost all solutions gravitate around the same idea : segregation. Separating the underperforming people from the other. But this strategy has too much problem :
* As a company SE can not implement a segregationnal system into its game, too dangerouse for the business image.
* Where do you put the line? how do you define underperforming? How do you measure the performence?
* How do you enforce such a system without alienating half of the player base (because at the end SE would need to say to player : "You suck, here is your punishement").
* How do you treat player who do their best but cannot perform as much as needed (disabilities, very young/old, etc.)

We already have such minor systems implemented in the game which prove that "absolute scale based segregation" does not work. Here are 2 examples :
* "minimum ilvl" and it fails at its job. Ilvl absolutly does not reflect player performence. I always smile when I see PF with aberrant minimum ilvl requirement. I see so much people fully geared with performence proportionally inverse to their ilvl.
* "commend" and it fails at its job. Commends do not reflect player performence, only how much time the player invested in doing group content.

I don't know if the segregation solution is a good solution but an "absolute scale segregation" is not, for sure.

What about a relative scale then? I see a possibility here, based on an "avoid player list". Allowing you to draw your own red line. You ended up with a player you don't like? Put it into this list and you won't be grouped with her/him in DF, you won't see any PF with her/him inside, etc. (or at least you'll be informed that an avoided player is present). It will be the opposite of the black list system : you could still be able to interact socialy with the player but not do content with her/him.

Advantage of this solution :
* It is relative to you.
* You can add whoever you want without justifying it.
* It depends on actual behaviour of the player, not on predefined scale.
* It is not an official segregation mechanism.
* Maybe it will reduce GM work load because I'm sure 50% of their work is : "I don't agree with [insert name], please punish [insert name]".

But, and I have to say it, segregation is a quick and dirty solution which only leads to a single negative long term outcome : conflict between the groups. Which in an MMO translate to a very bad general ambiance in the community. And this will be terrible for the whole game, regardless of the group you're in. So maybe we should forgot segregation and look for something else.

Thing is with the OP we already have tools in place to police our own experience. They may not be perfect but they are what we have. Do not like NN just leave it, do not like how a certain player is performing vote to remove them from the group. Quests are too easy do them naked. :P

Sure you might be judged by the community for not lacking empathy, being toxic, abusing the system etc . . . But our desire and wishes on both sides for a experience that caters to our personal standard is not going to align with the everyone so it is easier if people just use the tools available to try and make the best of it.

Just remember despite what others day or try to phrase it one has very little reason to go out of there way to help another person in game. Being worried about your own experience or time does not make you a bad or horrible person. It is your gameplay experience that matters, the same could be said for those that wish to play as an ice mage a melee only rdm etc . . .sure it may be annoying but they are also entitled to maximizing their personal enjoyment.

That is why one should use the tools in game do not just suck it up and deal with it because 'reasons' the truth is you do not have any reason to care about their reasons on either side.

DF does not mean you have to take it laying down. If the vote does not pass then you have a choice to make leave or suck it up.

Both sides can also create a PF.

Both sides can leave an NN.

The one thing I never got about FFXIV community is this disdain they have for the vote kick feature. In other games GM's and community promote liberal use of the feature cause if someone is causing you to not have fun try to remove that element, if it passes great if not time for you to move on. Especially in FFXIV bring kicked does not give you a leave penalty. Yet here in FFXIV do not like how someone plays sorry the community rather see that person suck it up or eat the timer themselves. For a community that promotes understanding of others it seems backwards. To want someone to sit around in a group with a element they may not enjoy or to blanket just leave it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hikelos

This has been completely derailed, as usual , off of the initial discussion that was the community fostering and propagating a culture of not meeting the bare minimum, into "You are unreasonably mad because a NIN in Ex Roulette popped a bunny".
Look at that strawman burn.
The regulars of these forums make discussions about anything slightly controversial or unpleasant completely impossible, 100% proving OP's point.

Not that discussion about this is going to do anything, clearly this is intended.
From the Easy and Very Easy modes in quest scenarios (which almost autocompleted in most cases on normal) to the oppressive and unreasonable in-game moderation which covers, verbatim: "Difference of Thinking", it's pretty clear that this is exactly the sort of atmosphere that is wanted by the developers.
And that's really unfortunate.

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There's no discussion to be had in the first place.

Extremely bad players that lack even the most basic understanding of this videogame you and I play are rare. They're at their most common in low-level content, shocking as that may be to hear. The only times I've ran into spectacularly bad players who don't even know the most basic of basics have been in dungeons levels 15-40. Once I had a level 44 gladiator that didn't activate stance or stand in the pools of Darkhold, and you know what the party did after countless attempts to tell him what to do?

Kicked him because he wasn't listening.

Not a lot of "enabling" goes on around me. And sure, you could argue "lmao bet you must Q with friends all the time" which would be nice, but considering I'm a European playing in an NA datacenter, that means the most free time I've got is spent playing while all my friends are asleep. Could it be the weird timeslot making me avoid all these supposed terrible players who you're not allowed to tell "git gud" to? I doubt it myself, since I have had plenty of "sub-par" parties regardless...

...but "sub-par" doesn't mean "irredeemably bad" as most of those parties were people experiencing content for the first time. Most of the deaths that happen in dungeons or raids that I'm a part of are so because of player inexperience, not a lack of player skill. You know what I, and many others do when we notice someone dying a lot?

"Hey, if you want to get through that mechanic, you have to watch out for X!"

Usually nets you positive responses, and I've seen more than a fair few people actively go out of their way to apologize in chat, unprompted, when they were underperforming. The most cited reason- again- is "sorry, first time, I don't know how this works"

"what about easy and very easy in solo duties" yeah what about them? Half the time you die in those it's because of a mechanic you didn't figure out in time 4/5ths of the fight and you really just want to set it to "very easy" not because you're incapable of clearing it, but because it's slow and boring and no way in fuck am I going to sit there for another 10 minutes just getting up to the stage I was already at.

"but what about those that are so bad they don't even try"
If it's truly watered down people's skills so much they can't even do a basic 1-2-3 combo and not stand in the bad stuff then all I can say is: I haven't seen the problem. The level 44 gladiator from earlier wasn't finding many friends in our party in any case, and if a player is so poor you question how they even got there to begin with, then I'm sure your party would agree with you if you pull up that 'vote kick' menu.

EDIT: Y'know, just to be on the safe side...

"This isn't about freestyle SAM being common, it's about being held hostage with one"
Oh big deal. This is such a 1-10000 occurrence because unlike what you might be assuming, people don't like wasting their time. It'll be one party you can talk about in the duty finder thread and then for the next 6 months you'll never encounter something even approaching that bad again. The stars have to align so perfectly to screw your day up in particular that it's not even worth entertaining the thought. You'd need
1: A bad player
2: A minimum of one person who does not want to kick the bad player
3: A dungeon so hard you can't solo carry it (and yes, I am only considering 4-mans, because you're not convincing me this is going to be much of an issue in 24-mans)

And about your ocean fishing example from earlier, that you "can't just get 24 people together for" and all?

Join a discord, man.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Awha

In the end the potential still exists without a hard dps check. The healer could just run out of mp and tank runs out of coold0wns cause the fight takes too long. The potential for a wipe still exists no matter how unlikely.

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Do we have to qualify tanks not mitigating/holding enmity or healers not healing with "no matter how unlikely?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

I'd say a DPS consistently not out DPS'ing a tank or healer in normal content is underperforming.

They may not be underperforming to the point that they are causing wipes, but they are significantly slowing down progress if that's the case.

A DPS not performing well is just as dangerous. Because lower DPS means a longer fight. A longer fight increases the chances of players making a mistake with mechanics or skill usage that could result in a wipe.

A D grade while passing is under performing. A person just caring to graduate high school may not have motivation to improve their performance, but they are still under performing.

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Without actual consequence, saying that they're underperforming is meaningless. If efficiency is the metric you want to focus on, hence time taken, then you should make your own party.

If you want to be efficient, then hope for every normal content to be nerfed down so hard that people "underperforming" by that metric is irrelevant. People who allegedly manipulate roulette to get easier content is being efficient.

Quote:

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Duty finder mixes players of all skill levels and game goals together. As long as the content's being completed, I personally wouldn't agree with a kick, especially if there hasn't been any attempt to nicely ask the player to improve. Players who care about the skill levels and game goals should use party finder to form a group.

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Indeed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Extremely bad players that lack even the most basic understanding of this videogame you and I play are rare. They're at their most common in low-level content

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This is the last thing I'm going to say, not to repeat myself, but just to make the argument absolutely clear, a 5th time now, because once again the response is either willing deflection or honest misunderstanding.
The people OP is talking about are at their most common in end-game and high level content.
The problem is not and has never been, sprouts who don't know what an AOE is. Actually, seeing sprouts learn the ropes and helping them out is very endearing and carries a sense of nostalgia.
The subject at hand is ye olde "You don't pay my sub" attitude, and the problem that makes this attitude unbearable is how the in-game moderation will side with self-entitled, toxic, and unreasonable manbaby saboteurs.

These people, and there are many, have no problems filing a report if they are reminded (in a polite and friendly manner) that SCH can use shields and doesn't need to individually heal every player when there's an AoE, or getting people together in discord to mass report someone they don't like.
Essentially they spend their time looking for drama. They feed off of it. It's not just that they're bad, they identify with being bad and therefore see people trying to help as a personal attack.
And again, they do it because they are fully enabled to do so. That's the thing.
Be honest, when you told that 44 GLA to put tank stance on, did you say it casually, or did you put together a sterile and unnaturally polite PR statement out of fear of being reported?
Whatever is the answer, I don't think it's controversial at all to say that most people will go for the latter option when they find themselves in that situation.
In my experience people either do that, or outright leave without saying anything and suffer the 30m lock.

The end result is this oppressive, 24/7 Mask-On atmosphere.
And that's not good for a game genre whose main pull is being a social experience first and foremost.

Sidenote: Yes, the likelyhood of finding this type of player heavily depends on the time of day. And no, you cannot que ocean fishing as a raid, having 24 people on hand won't change anything- and you shouldn't have to do that just to work around and accomodate someone who will que at the speed of light to get on the very boat, and then spend 15m walking around and emoting, ignoring people pleas to please either fish or leave out of nothing but spite and malice. I've been there many, MANY MANY MANY times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hikelos

Be honest, when you told that 44 GLA to put tank stance on, did you say it casually, or did you put together a sterile and unnaturally polite PR statement out of fear of being reported?

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The fact that saying something casually means that you should fear being reported shows that the problem is with you. Change what it means to say things casually.

And no, you should never fear being reported. You should fear the GM agreeing with the report. And if you really think they're being toxic, report them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hikelos

This has been completely derailed, as usual , off of the initial discussion that was the community fostering and propagating a culture of not meeting the bare minimum, into "You are unreasonably mad because a NIN in Ex Roulette popped a bunny".
Look at that strawman burn.

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I don't think even a strawman.

The issue is that the subject is a false premise and people have been arguing why it's a false premise and you can see it backed up by how the OP is handling it.

The two false premises I see are:
- That the community is enabling it
- That it's as big of an issue as OP makes out and so big it needs addressing by said community

The main issues I think are:
- Maybe OP's standard is higher. Their attitude and follow up posts imply they are.
- Maybe OP is being unfair in how they're interpreting and assessing their encounters in DF, OP's attitude towards under performers without acknowledging the numerous reasonable ways a person might be under performing suggests it strongly.

People acknowledge that bad eggs exist. We've all encountered them. But it's being overstated.

And I think it can be easy to as well, because it can be easy to have derogative assumptions about the failings of fellow party members. But they're "bad" or "not trying" and so on is a gross oversimplification that if anything enables a poor attitude towards them. My biggest experience of it comes when people complain about healers, hence my linking earlier, where the common assumption appeared about healers refusing to heal and I gave reasonings as to why the "refusing" can just be an assumption. Any one of a party member's failings can be for a whole plethora of reasons.

But again, within that, there are bad eggs and you know that are because you've tried to engage them or help them and they've been crappy about it and show totally the wrong ideas and attitude. But I would argue, the bulk of so called "bad" players aren't because of crappy or toxic attitudes. And verified bad eggs can end up being confirmation bias too.

So we can't simply just /expect/ the player who's trying from meeting certain expectations. We'd like them to for sure, but because of the many reasons they might not be meeting those expectations, I don't think is fair to have such a derogative outlook on those players, my instinct on it is to try to help.

It's not like SE can turn around and say "sorry, you can't play, you're too bad" or enable a culture of calling players out or excluding them based on performance creates bigger toxic issues. I think the culture SE has generally enabled (because it was the same as FFXI) and that's one of people helping each other out, and I'd rather keep that TBH.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by linayar

Do we have to qualify tanks not mitigating/holding enmity or healers not healing with "no matter how unlikely?"

Without actual consequence, saying that they're underperforming is meaningless. If efficiency is the metric you want to focus on, hence time taken, then you should make your own party.

If you want to be efficient, then hope for every normal content to be nerfed down so hard that people "underperforming" by that metric is irrelevant. People who allegedly manipulate roulette to get easier content is being efficient.

Indeed.

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The thing is as stated the potential still exists. Though the quantifying remake is person dependent. Personally wiping in normal content is already unlikely even with low dps or underperforming tank / healers.

Though for normal content a tank or healer not performing their role it is still possible for someone else to pick up the slack to make up for the difference. Which is the same principle of dps doing lower damage the group is able to make up the difference so it does not matter if the content gets cleared in regards of the dps because all that matters for the most part from what I understand is the group performance. Though the same Principle still stands for the other roles, and that is my point. If we break down the standard to a core principle of completion through group effort the same standard should apply across the board. Though for the most part people are far more understanding of dps underperforming over tanks and healers. Which is understandable but at the core kind of unfair. I prefer to apply an equal standard across the board when it comes to performance.

Though I do not expect SE to do anything about it that is why I support a liberal use of the vote kick feature, and advocates for both sides to use the PF or queue with friends if they want to play a certain way. If someone wants to be a free style sam cool do you, but if that us your preferred way of playing then I also think the PF suggestion should also apply to them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Awha

The thing is as stated the potential still exists. Though the quantifying remake is person dependent. Personally wiping in normal content is already unlikely even with low dps or underperforming tank / healers.

Though for normal content a tank or healer not performing their role it is still possible for someone else to pick up the slack to make up for the difference. Which is the same principle of dps doing lower damage the group is able to make up the difference so it does not matter if the content gets cleared in regards of the dps because all that matters for the most part from what I understand is the group performance. Though the same Principle still stands for the other roles, and that is my point. If we break down the standard to a core principle of completion through group effort the same standard should apply across the board. Though for the most part people are far more understanding of dps underperforming over tanks and healers. Which is understandable but at the core kind of unfair. I prefer to apply an equal standard across the board when it comes to performance.

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Healers losing MP could have various factors contributing to it, like tank overpulling or healers not using their resource wisely, not just dps being low, and it takes the entire party having low dps, including the other dps as well.

So, no, the standard is still the same. But low dps doesn't affect the party like tanks losing aggro or healers not healing. The latter two has immediate effect more than simply fight taking longer or healer losing MP.

And here is the other thing, if the dps gets so low that the party cannot get through a mob, then of course that's a problem, but considering healers and tanks have good dps, dps being lower than them doesn't necessarily mean anything in normal content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by linayar

snip

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Those factors are player dependent, and are often products of poor play. Sure other factors can lead to such outcomes, just like in the case of a dps doing lower damage.

Though personally those factors are irrelevant to me, I really do not care why someone is under performing I just care about the numbers.

Your stance would require me to care about such things. This is my my view for underperforming is fairly straight forward and black and white and I get for many that is weird and unnecessary.

I just do not get why people are willing to defend certain aspects that are a product of poor play yet blast others. Largely based off the role in question. Cannot tell you how many times I have seen people yell at a tank for not having tank stance on yet say nothing when the dps does not AoE. From a game play perspective both are moot in large portions of this games content. I have cleared content with 4 dps. Most content does not require fully functional roles yet for the most part they use the same line of thinking one has a higher risk of wipe which makes it an unnecessary risk so to speak.

When you bring up the risk of a wipe is still the same in the other cases of under performing once again told the same thing it is not very likely so it is moot.

In the end people are right the group can largely make up for many shortcomings for lower dps and I also argue the same could be said for healers and tanks, but I will concede that it is fair easier to make up poor damage then poor heals or tanks.

Though personally the degree of wipe potential or how much easier one is over the other is not grounds to give one role preferencenal standards so to speak and not the others.

So personally this is why I hold each to the same standard. Want to underperform by my standards cool do you, but if it happens to be in my group I will vote to remove them from the group. I see no difference between a non aoeing dps and a healer that just stands around between heals. To me they are in the same boat as the tank that refuses to put on tank stance or the afk let eos heal sch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Awha

I just do not get why people are willing to defend certain aspects that are a product of poor play yet blast others.

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Ok, let's get to the point:

If a tank doesn't keep aggro, the enemy is likely to attack others.
If a healer doesn't keep tank or others alive, they are likely to die. Especially cleansing doom mechanic.
If a dps doesn't output dps, they are afk and anyone who is afk without telling others why should be kicked.

If a dps doesn't output higher dps than healer/tank, fight will take longer, but that's it, healers are not likely to lose mp unless it's really low dps along with other factors. You say you don't care about stuff, I don't care about this last part. Oh no, it takes more GCDs to kill. Whatever, unless it's borderline afk, meaning they stop casting every other gcd or something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hikelos

Be honest, when you told that 44 GLA to put tank stance on, did you say it casually, or did you put together a sterile and unnaturally polite PR statement out of fear of being reported?

The end result is this oppressive, 24/7 Mask-On atmosphere.

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lmao what? You're telling this to the guy who casually got banned off the forum for a spat he had with Doozer and hasn't changed a lick about himself since then. If you're going to make the point of "putting on a mask and not truly saying what you want to say" then at least make it to a guy who actually gives a damn about what comes out of his mouth.

When you have "Easy" and "Very Easy" Mode in Instanced Battles, I think we have a problem. I love Yoshi-P, but he has to release that big brother death grip off the player base's hand, otherwise the game will never grow properly as a result.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soge01

When you have "Easy" and "Very Easy" Mode in Instanced Battles, I think we have a problem. I love Yoshi-P, but he has to release that big brother death grip off the player base's hand, otherwise the game will never grow properly as a result.

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Define growing "properly" first.

I actually disagree with the easy mode for quests, but people told me it's irrelevant because they're solo, so whatever.

But anyway, I don't think there is any "big brother death grip" thing going on, just some rules that are actually enforced. People still has the freedom of determining whom they want to play with in this game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by linayar

Ok, let's get to the point:

If a tank doesn't keep aggro, the enemy is likely to attack others.
If a healer doesn't keep tank or others alive, they are likely to die. Especially cleansing doom mechanic.
If a dps doesn't output dps, they are afk and anyone who is afk without telling others why should be kicked.

If a dps doesn't output higher dps than healer/tank, fight will take longer, but that's it, healers are not likely to lose mp unless it's really low dps along with other factors. You say you don't care about stuff, I don't care about this last part. Oh no, it takes more GCDs to kill. Whatever, unless it's borderline afk, meaning they stop casting every other gcd or something.

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Here is the thing I do not recall ever saying you should care about those things. This has just been a discussion over how people define underperforming. Sure you may not be bothered by x others are. So what is the big deal?

That is the thing people say we should not care about x we should let it slide or use the PF. Though if you dare say yeah I care about x and I will kick people for doing x you are seen as some intolerant asshole by others. When in reality if you break down x to the core they functionally are a product of the same thing just not being able to play their role.

Sure some are more tolerant to certain degrees of poor play others may not so what is largely the big deal in having a different view in regards to what they view as underperforming. For some the consequences are irrelevant I do not harp on such things because I am afraid of a wipe or want to go fast all the time. If speed was my core concern I would just suck it up since it is quicker to play another with someone then wait 5 min into the dungeon to remove someone. Wiping in this game in most content is the futherest thing from my mind.

In the end this is why I say people should just be liberal with the vote kick feature, and if it does not pass then leave. Queue with friends or use PF. I do not think SE can or will do anything regarding this since we have a means to remove people from parties and queue with people who to wish to play with.

Though I fo strongly disagree that DF means we should just accept what we get, and I do not think people should take getting removed from group personally or see it as a form of griefing or harassment unless they can prove such things.

Often it is just a product of not meshing with the group.

One thing I will say to those that say people like myself should queue with friends and stuff I agree and for the most part I do. Though I will say from the free style sam to the afk eos healer sch the same could be said for them.

In the end if you want to play a certain way free from judgement queue with friends. DF is a mixed bag though if you do use DF and run into someone that is doing something that is impacting your experience do not just sit and take it or just leave. Try the vote see what happens often times you may be shocked how some may be thinking or feel the same way but simply do not want to pull the trigger so to speak. What is the worse the happens it does not pass, at that point take your leave.

As mentioned you may not see the difference and that is fine in eyes a dps doing less damage then a tank or healer is in the same boat as a healer that refuses to cleanse doom or a tank not using cooldowns. They all suck at their role and I rather not deal with it and thay is why use the tools in the game to avoid such people.

Cause if you break it down both outcomes are products of not knowing how to play their role. The why matters very little to me personally. Though if people do not think like that cool. I may not get it and I will ask questions to try and get it. Those please understand me asking questions to try and get it has little to do with trying to change your mind and more so with trying to understand the reasoning behind it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Awha

Here is the thing I do not recall ever saying you should care about those things. This has just been a discussion over how people define underperforming. Sure you may not be bothered by x others are. So what is the big deal?

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What do you mean what's the big deal? I'm just answering the confusion you stated in your post.

The point remains, if "underperforming" is defined subjectively, then it's irrelevant. If it is defined objectively, then it must be relevant to the objective of the content.

And no matter how much you want to talk about potentiality, tank losing aggro and healer not healing has a bigger potential for not completing the objective than simply dps not putting as much damage as tank/healer.

On the 44 GLA front missing tank stance. in those situations I come out with something like:

"GLA, you forgot tank stance"

If I get a moment, I might poke them an say "I see you've not got PLD unlocked yet, it's worth unlocking GLA is only designed for 30 and below, it's a legacy left over".

I've never felt general respect for other players to be oppressive.

I've also been the tank to forget tank stance. I've also been the tank where my tank stance is next to button I hit frequently and misclicked it. I've had brain farts.

The "GLA not PLD" situation is almost always inevitably new players who didn't realise or not get why they need to upgrade or think it's optional. And I thought this wasn't about new players?

Besides, it's so rare a situation, I'm not going to lose my s***. If it was a common situation, I would be pushing the devs to just force jobs and require them for progression. As for tank stance, it's an easy mistake for ANYBODY to make.


But bottom line is...it's a game that caters to people on both ends of the spectrum of players. So coexistence has to be a thing, else it just makes for a divided and toxic community and I find most co-exist fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

On the 44 GLA front missing tank stance. in those situations I come out with something like:

"GLA, you forgot tank stance"

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Oh, don't get me wrong, he was bad. We asked for tank stance multiple times, even said the skill name. His gear was severely outdated for the dungeon, he would never use an AoE and no matter what we tried, he wouldn't say a word to us. Half the time he also just stood there, as if computing his next course of action, instead of running further into the dungeon.

I agree that you usually get results if you simply ask, as is the case 99% of the time, but he was an example of a "so bad you can't believe they exist" player. Need to see it in the entire context of the post; I mentioned it was both rare to encounter this type of guy, and if they truly are hopeless, vote kick existed for a reason- which we promptly used after our tenth time asking.

The story wasn't meant to be some kind of "gotcha" but rather just an example; anecdotal evidence is, after all, not actual evidence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by linayar

What do you mean what's the big deal? I'm just answering the confusion you stated in your post.

The point remains, if "underperforming" is defined subjectively, then it's irrelevant. If it is defined objectively, then it must be relevant to the objective of the content.

And no matter how much you want to talk about potentiality, tank losing aggro and healer not healing has a bigger potential for not completing the objective than simply dps not putting as much damage as tank/healer.

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Thing is it is only irrelevant into relation to SE doing anything about. They will not, nor do I recall saying that performance is an objective metric if I did sorry, I to recall saying the that the outcome of a vote in a party is an objective metric but I do not recall saying that regarding performance. I have always been in the camp that standards are subjective and that is what creates this issue in the first place cause we all have different views on the matter.

Sure it may hold more potential but as mentioned but the degree of potential trouble does not matter to me I am a action driven person. I operate on a very binary system. If one action can cause a similar outcome no matter how likely or unlikely I will not do said action. Unless I am willing to live with the consequences. IRL it has different implications though in the game as mentioned and I agree one carries higher risk of wipe but to me the risk factor does not devalue the action itself. I judge them on the action and not the outcome.