Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

You are making no sense, you even said your self "there's no need to have to switch to a dps stance when casting 10 dps spells is going to zero out your MP pool." plus you are only 50, you do not really have room to speak on the manner if something needs nerfing. WHM has the lowest mp regeneration and you want to hurt them more? that's just rofl worthy.



That is not an opinion, it is trolling, did you read his post carefully? that makes no sense what so ever.




Right there, he is fighting is own opinion so i called him a troll, I do not see the big deal. Also flare is like 1/2 the mp as holy ... **** (with current max mp of a blm and using mp like they should, anyway)

---

Since we've resorted to name calling, I'm going to go ahead and say your reading comprehension and understanding is troll worthy. I really don't even feel like dumbing down what I have already said anymore for you. Just keep believing I'm a troll, I don't even care. I can appreciate bswpaytons tone and arguments but you aren't worth an effort.

Edit: I can see you took flare, I definitely should have stated blm fire aoe more clearly. I was talking about BLM Fire II with Astral Fire III up (2652 MP). That is my fault for not being clear enough there. That's all I'll allow myself to give you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bswpayton

on a side note and im not trolling Ive had more mp issues with astro dpsing like gravity spam than I ever had on whm , but Im fully aware that whm has the most issues with mp tho, but in my experience its been astro for some reason

---

I can't stress how nigh broken it is to be able to ewer yourself, hit ASTshroud and extend both. If you're carrying the damage in a dungeon and spamming a lot more Gravities than you would like, don't be afraid to skip a balance and feed yourself instead. It's pretty much a guaranteed full MP bar from near nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

I can't stress how nigh broken it is to be able to ewer yourself, hit ASTshroud and extend both. If you're carrying the damage in a dungeon and spamming a lot more Gravities than you would like, don't be afraid to skip a balance and feed yourself instead. It's pretty much a guaranteed full MP bar from near nothing.

---

I admit that I totally failed to realize the fact I could and should use ewer on myself haha I was just always burning them so this was def an issue I placed on myself haha. I guess I was just always lookin for the next spread are card buff forgettin to use ewer on myself if i ever ran into mp issues. So it def was a player error on my part ha totally slipped my mind

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taika

What you're suggesting is that instead of actively contributing, healer play would involve more of doing nothing at all (since they wouldn't have as much MP to DPS as much and they're already covering the healing requirement). How would that be any better? Or "strategic"?

---

Certain spells could do less damage, but provide a decent debuff on the enemy to be considered worthwhile to keep on.
Think of the astrologian's Disable, a -10% action damage debuff - You reduce the effect down to 5%, but can be applied with a certain single target attack spell. The duration is somewhat about 15-18 seconds, but doesn't come with diminishing returns when reapplying it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taika

Still, it's not wise to suggest healers should be able to do something less (DPS in your suggestion of increasing MP costs), since that's not beneficial in anyway. If you wish to change healers to focus more on something else than DPS, then the suggestions should focus on that "something else" and how that can be increased in gameplay and battle design.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Another problem IMHO is that there is too many mechanics in this game that are simply dodge and win. There is not enough unavoidables that dish out damage forcing a healer to heal in this game. There could even be stages of avoidance, a spot where you take 100% dmg, 75% dmg, 50% dmg similar to meteors that scale depending how far away you are but will always hit you.

---

There is tons of ways to increase healing but in terms of class and battle design I've already stated my opinion. There could even be a gloom debuff that drains hp slowly at first but gets stronger as the raid progresses up to enrage. More unavoidables, more player suffered DoTs, more low damage unavoidable AOEs similar to Nidhoggs scream. There's lots of things they could do, the question is when does it become too much, right now I honestly feel like its not enough but there are times in really bad groups that it does feel like enough but I assume thats mostly due to failure to dodge properly. We can't assume every party will have lots of dodge failures, there should be something else that is dishing out damage to keep healers doing what they should be doing the most "Healing".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mycow8me

There is tons of ways to increase healing but in terms of class and battle design I've already stated my opinion.

---

Healers can heal for around 20% of a tanks max HP every GCD noncrit just spamming a single spell. That's 40% max HP every GCD in a full party. Around 20% of everyone's max HP every GCD by having both spam AoEs. A bit more to account for fairy/regen/CDs. Do you realize how insane it'd be to up the damage to match current healing levels? How insanely stressful healing would become? You can catch a glimpse of what you're asking for in PvP.

I find the very notion sooomewhat insane. But whatever it takes not to get nerfed or class complexity, huh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Since we've resorted to name calling, I'm going to go ahead and say your reading comprehension and understanding is troll worthy. I really don't even feel like dumbing down what I have already said anymore foryou. Just keep believing I'm a troll, I don't even care. I can appreciate bswpaytons tone and arguments but you aren't worth an effort.

Edit: I can see you took flare, I definitely should have stated blm fire aoe more clearly. I was talking about BLM Fire II with Astral Fire III up. That is my fault for not being clear enough there. That's all I'll allow myself to give you.

---

My reading comprehension is fine, tyvm, you are the issue:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mycow8me

I'm still of the opinion that DPS spells on healer should cost alot more mp, especially holy and other classes AOE equivalent. Think BLM fire aoe spell costs but maybe a little less. Single target spells should use 10% or more MP, especially stone III. DoT spells should be very low cause those are perfect for downtimes healing.

Another problem IMHO is that there is too many mechanics in this game that are simply dodge and win. There is not enough unavoidables that dish out damage forcing a healer to heal in this game. There could even be stages of avoidance, a spot where you take 100% dmg, 75% dmg, 50% dmg similar to meteors that scale depending how far away you are but will always hit you.

I really think though, that dps spells should cost alot more mp cause this will not only bring more skill into play but more strategy cause a healer has to decide whether or not DPSing is going to make or break their MP pool and cause a wipe. Other people in the party will probably stop blasting healers as much for not DPSing for anything other than DoTs.

Also: Get rid of clerics stance, there's no need to have to switch to a dps stance when casting 10 dps spells is going to zero out your MP pool. This lets a healer time manage their spare MP and more freely toss out a DPS spell or DoTs when they feel confident their MP can spare it.

---

You can't just say "oh WHM DPS spells need to cost more mp, then give an arguments of "Get rid of clerics stance because (right now) because WHM DPS spells cost too much mp.

Also Mp costs are not treated equal, BLM gets mp back like water. WHM has a hard time getting mp back, on top of the high mp costs that you admit?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mycow8me

People are wanting to heal more, this would only be part of a solution. I already stated more damage should be coming out. More focus should be on Dots between heals and their high DPS spells should be for spare MP and if anything DPS clock mechanics that they can spare a larger section of their mp pool.

Edit: I don't expect people to agree with my opinion but at the same time, assumptions and trying to make me look like an idiot is unacceptable. I'm done here, I've already stated my two cents. My opinion on whm may not hold as much weight since I didn't play it for 3.0 but My thoughts are still the same even for scholar.

---

We are not assume, it is clear you do not have the experience with what you are saying here, perpetually with WHM. For a scholar only player giving out suggestions and hurting the endgame WHM is rofl worthy. When you give an opinion, you should have some backing and explaining how you got there, not some half bake idea because you hate WHM because you only leveled SCH or whatever your issue is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Why do people keep assuming my experience level. I have played all of the things you have mentioned on scholar and in every single one of those, I have literally just spammed DPS spells most of the time with side healing. If there was any MP management at all, it was because there was a horrendous amount of deaths from people who are too lazy to dodge or at the final phase of diabolos where everything is mostly a gigantic clustorfk of a mess.

There is alot of skepticism towards accuracy towards 4.0. Considering the future of accuracy I'm not sure if that even matters.

---

You have no accuracy medls, you have NO ROOM, to speak on changes like this, you simply do not have the experience. You have not DPS in salvage because you do not have the accuracy for it. More so you have not done all those things as a WHM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Flare is literally all your MP to cast what're you talking about, that's how the spell works.

Anyway. Dude has an opinion. You can disagree, but at least respect it, geez. Not everyone who disagrees is out to get the poor, persecuted healers and make them stay in the kitchen when they want to do more and more damage every patch.

---

Talking about flare being used properly, the mp cost is going to change with how you use it.

Again, are you reading his post? It makes no sense. You can't say "WHM spells cost too little mp right now, then say , we need drop cleric stance because whm spells cost too much mp? That is not an opinion anymore. Meaning, he is contradicting himself for whatever reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Again, are you reading his post? It makes no sense. You can't say "WHM spells cost too little mp right now, then say , we need drop cleric stance because whm spells cost too much mp? That is not an opinion anymore. Meaning, he is contradicting himself for whatever reason.

---

Because cleric stance becomes useless and skill bloat when you don't need to dps as much, annoying even when you are recasting DoTs between healing which I've stated numerous times. I never once implied that currently clerics stance is useless cause of mp costs. You are just reading into it differently apparently.
You continue to discredit my opinion of whm when back in 2.0 holy spam was about the same it is now. You continue to call me a troll because you are unable to see an opinion my way... You continue to have writing/reading deficits. I don't know where to start or to end with you. I feel like I'm talking to a potato. I'll just agree to disagree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

Healers can heal for around 20% of a tanks max HP every GCD noncrit just spamming a single spell. That's 40% max HP every GCD in a full party. Around 20% of everyone's max HP every GCD by having both spam AoEs. A bit more to account for fairy/regen/CDs. Do you realize how insane it'd be to up the damage to match current healing levels? How insanely stressful healing would become? You can catch a glimpse of what you're asking for in PvP.

I find the very notion sooomewhat insane. But whatever it takes not to get nerfed or class complexity, huh?

---

So what, you want to lower their healing capability instead to make content more variable with healing? I thought making healing more stressful was the idea, so they would heal more and dps less. There's obviously a point at which it becomes to stressful but are we really that close right now? I feel like I dps spam more than I heal in pretty much every content unless the party has alot of low skill or new players. I don't do PVP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Snip

---

That's a lot of silliness over there. Flare being all MP aside, and factoring in "X amount of BLM MP" when their MP is functionally infinite, is on a different scale.

But more than that you're still insisting this person is a troll and contradicting themselves when they're articulating their argument in a polite and concise way, and explaining thoroughly why their idea works how it does. It's functionally "They say Clerics is too hard to toggle, just make it harder to DPS in a different way by making the mana bar what they juggle instead of Clerics". You're just shooting everything down that's not "Give healers more DPS we want more DPS" and discrediting the person you're arguing with because they're not a level 60 healer like you, like it's a prerequisite to present any sort of idea. It reminds me of how children will hold their breath until they pass out when they get angry.

There's no reason to create a method for more healers. There's actually too many already.

I leveled in HW as a WHM, but as I got closer and closer and eventually got to 60, I quickly realized there was no spots open for the. Sure you get a 1-3 minute queue in DF. But what do you do once you've got all 260 gear? You roll a DPS and not Tank because they're even worse off than healers.

The only thing that needs to happen is making the DPS queues shorter by allowing more into the duties to reduce their queue times. Its ridiculous that 4man content requires only half the group to be DPS when 24 man stuff requires 5/8's

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Flare is literally all your MP to cast what're you talking about, that's how the spell works.

---

Technically, no. Flare is a minimum of 850~MP. You don't need all your MP to use it, but you CAN use all your MP to use it.

Also, Mycow8me, as far as I'm concerned, healers should be DPSing as long as their heals aren't required for that specific GCD. If you believe that they shouldn't be DPSing and that Cleric needs to go and MP costs need to be boosted, that's fine. You can have that mindset, even if it's inane to state that MP consumption should be high for DPS spells. Imagine running out of MP in the middle of a story duty and failing because you can neither heal yourself nor deal damage to the enemy... that would be broken.

Just take a second and think about what you're talking about instead of just throwing out ideas without thinking of repercussions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ErryK

Technically, no. Flare is a minimum of 850~MP. You don't need all your MP to use it, but you CAN use all your MP to use it.

---

Actually, and ironically given current conversation, the minimum is 10% of your max MP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ErryK

Technically, no. Flare is a minimum of 850~MP. You don't need all your MP to use it, but you CAN use all your MP to use it.

Also, Mycow8me, as far as I'm concerned, healers should be DPSing as long as their heals aren't required for that specific GCD. If you believe that they shouldn't be DPSing and that Cleric needs to go and MP costs need to be boosted, that's fine. You can have that mindset, even if it's inane to state that MP consumption should be high for DPS spells. Imagine running out of MP in the middle of a story duty and failing because you can neither heal yourself nor deal damage to the enemy... that would be broken.

Just take a second and think about what you're talking about instead of just throwing out ideas without thinking of repercussions.

---

Thats the point, strategizing your MP pool. If you think its insane that's also perfectly fine, you obviously enjoy the DPS meta for healer at the moment. I didn't say healers shouldn't be DPSing but I do believe we spend more time DPSing than healing but your mileage will vary. I don't enjoy it but I don't currently hate it either. I WOULD on the other hand appreciate a more healing focused meta but often times anyone who tries to come up with an idea is ostracized or a part of some kind of healer minority. That doesn't make my opinion worthless though, I would enjoy scholar more if the focus was healing more so than it is now. My ideas towards higher cost dps, clerics removal, and more overall damage output on the group was a means to that end and nothing more than that. I'm sure there are other ideas out there but they would probably be hit with the same retribution that I've been hit with which is why they probably don't post, or maybe we really are a minority and almost everyone is happy with healer the way it is now. Regardless my opinion is still here. It doesn't hold as much weight for whm but it does for scholar. I haven't played astro and probably won't.

As someone who has always mained a healer and does DPS without issue current state, I support the removal of cleric stance and having healer dps scale off MND. Cleric stance is cumbersome and not fictionally needed. 4.0 is supposed to be about closing skill gap after all....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Because cleric stance becomes useless and skill bloat when you don't need to dps as much, annoying even when you are recasting DoTs between healing which I've stated numerous times. I never once implied that currently clerics stance is useless cause of mp costs. You are just reading into it differently apparently.You continue to discredit my opinion of whm when back in 2.0 holy spam was about the same it is now. You continue to call me a troll because you are unable to see an opinion my way... You continue to have writing/reading deficits. I don't know where to start or to end with you. I feel like I'm talking to a potato. I'll just agree to disagree.



So what, you want to lower their healing capability instead to make content more variable with healing? I thought making healing more stressful was the idea, so they would heal more and dps less. There's obviously a point at which it becomes to stressful but are we really that close right now? I feel like I dps spam more than I heal in pretty much every content unless the party has alot of low skill or new players. I don't do PVP.

---

Say it with me now.
This is not 2.0
this is not 2.0
this is not 2.0

No it is not the same. You really need more experience. It is not a discredit, it is just hard to relate when you have little experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlaworks

That's a lot of silliness over there. Flare being all MP aside, and factoring in "X amount of BLM MP" when their MP is functionally infinite, is on a different scale.

But more than that you're still insisting this person is a troll and contradicting themselves when they're articulating their argument in a polite and concise way, and explaining thoroughly why their idea works how it does. It's functionally "They say Clerics is too hard to toggle, just make it harder to DPS in a different way by making the mana bar what they juggle instead of Clerics". You're just shooting everything down that's not "Give healers more DPS we want more DPS" and discrediting the person you're arguing with because they're not a level 60 healer like you, like it's a prerequisite to present any sort of idea. It reminds me of how children will hold their breath until they pass out when they get angry.

---

But that does not work! Even if we assume that is what the person meant, it is TOO HARD ON WHM MP! to make matters worse, he is not experienced in WHM to know if it is a good idea or not. If you are going to try limit DPS over the use of cleric stance or enlarging the mp cost, I pick cleric. There is no issue with cleric stance, if they take it out they better take out tank stance dancing because there is a good number that can't do it right and makes it too hard to heal. If clerics is too hard then all DPS in this game is too hard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ErryK

Technically, no. Flare is a minimum of 850~MP. You don't need all your MP to use it, but you CAN use all your MP to use it.

Also, Mycow8me, as far as I'm concerned, healers should be DPSing as long as their heals aren't required for that specific GCD. If you believe that they shouldn't be DPSing and that Cleric needs to go and MP costs need to be boosted, that's fine. You can have that mindset, even if it's inane to state that MP consumption should be high for DPS spells. Imagine running out of MP in the middle of a story duty and failing because you can neither heal yourself nor deal damage to the enemy... that would be broken.

Just take a second and think about what you're talking about instead of just throwing out ideas without thinking of repercussions.

---

exactly. Increasing MP cost just breaks more then solve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayer2015

As someone who has always mained a healer and does DPS without issue current state, I support the removal of cleric stance and having healer dps scale off MND. Cleric stance is cumbersome and not fictionally needed. 4.0 is supposed to be about closing skill gap after all....

---

Can we close the gap with tanks and remove tank stances?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mycow8me

snip

---

Don't play SCH if you're trying to opt for a more MP-strategized role. You want WHM because WHM has MP issues. SCH is healing easy mode or lax-mode, whichever you want, because the fairy makes your MP problems whittle away, and Aetherflow just makes it worse. Or just go with a 0 PIE gearset.

The only way we're getting a more healing-focused meta is if the content demands the kind of healing you're expecting. What you're essentially asking for is that everyone takes exactly 50% HP every 3 seconds, so that every GCD from both healers is spent on AoE heals, and the healers can't output any damage, there's your healing meta. Hope you enjoy running out of MP after 3 min.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Actually, and ironically given current conversation, the minimum is 10% of your max MP.

---

That's incorrect:
http://i.imgur.com/Ag3nFh1.pnghttps://i.gyazo.com/631468c8fab8b556...2677f687d0.png

You're saying I'd need minimum 1133MP to cast Flare, but I'm sitting at 979MP and able to cast it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mycow8me

I feel like I dps spam more than I heal in pretty much every content unless the party has alot of low skill or new players. I don't do PVP.

---

Indeed, to put some numbers on these facts, I can typically maintain an 80% or higher cleric stance uptime in expert almost entirely irrespective of how good or bad the group is. Whereas on A12s, my SCH managed around a 70% uptime on cleric on our very first kill within 5 days of us entering the instance back in like early October a few weeks after it was released, (aka we most certainly weren't overgearing it).

Limiting healers from DPSing via excessive MP costs is the wrong fix for the issue at hand here going on 4 years after rerelease. If even Stormblood fixes this with new abilities and better tuned content, think about how mindwarpingly dull this is going to make pre 61 roulettes and story content which will still be run on a regular basis.

IMO the best solution is sadly a number of different things. Reducing the pace at which VIT scales upwards with iLvl would help slow down the power creep without making new gear feel less impactful. That would need to be coupled with a rethink on how bosses output the bulk of their damage. Huge but well spaced hits are easy to handle with embrace and regens. Higher paced auto attack damage coupled with smaller but more frequent mini tank buster hits such as what was seen with T4's dreadnoughts or T1's caduceus during earlyish progression. T5's death sentence mechanic was another good example where both healers had their work cut out with debuff chains alongside both stoneskin and adlo being flat out required to survive each hit pretty quickly into the encounter. T11 style cleaves and shared hits are another great means to increase the workload without resorting to cheese mechanics.

I suppose the biggest thing of all of course, is that SE absolutely need to understand that having huge long periods of time where the supposed final type zero boss of an entire expansion sits there slowly auto attacking for 3.5k damage a significant amount of the encounter. I've healed in mmos for approaching 20 years now and I can't say I've ever seen a closing boss that is as wimpy and nonchalant as Alexander Prime. Bahamut Prime may not have been the stiffest challenge either, but at least he did a decent job of trying to make an overcooked pancake out of the tanks =(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ErryK

Don't play SCH if you're trying to opt for a more MP-strategized role. You want WHM because WHM has MP issues. SCH is healing easy mode or lax-mode, whichever you want, because the fairy makes your MP problems whittle away, and Aetherflow just makes it worse. Or just go with a 0 PIE gearset.The only way we're getting a more healing-focused meta is if the content demands the kind of healing you're expecting. What you're essentially asking for is that everyone takes exactly 50% HP every 3 seconds, so that every GCD from both healers is spent on AoE heals, and the healers can't output any damage, there's your healing meta. Hope you enjoy running out of MP after 3 min.



That's incorrect:
http://i.imgur.com/Ag3nFh1.pnghttps://i.gyazo.com/631468c8fab8b556...2677f687d0.png

You're saying I'd need minimum 1133MP to cast Flare, but I'm sitting at 979MP and able to cast it.

---

This is why I said flare is about 1/2 the cost of holy, despite blm having quick mp regeneration.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mycow8me

healer should cost alot more mp, especially holy and other classes AOE equivalent. Think BLM fire aoe spell costs but maybe a little less.

---

So it is very confusing what he is trying to get across, but increasing mp cost for DPS spells just because you do not like healer DPS is not a fix but a personal grievance.

but depending where you are on rotations, the cost of flare can be that to 1600 ish, I think 1600 ish is from full > fire >>> fire II spam till 1600 or so, then when you transpose to do the 2x fire II after that, the cost is more along the lines of 1000. Holy cost a huge amount of mp, and stack having healing on top of that with little mp regen tools.. yeah.. there is a reason why I am disagreeing with the so called "opinion" from someone that never set foot on a 60 whm , let alone end game on anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ErryK

Don't play SCH if you're trying to opt for a more MP-strategized role. You want WHM because WHM has MP issues. SCH is healing easy mode or lax-mode, whichever you want, because the fairy makes your MP problems whittle away, and Aetherflow just makes it worse. Or just go with a 0 PIE gearset.

The only way we're getting a more healing-focused meta is if the content demands the kind of healing you're expecting. What you're essentially asking for is that everyone takes exactly 50% HP every 3 seconds, so that every GCD from both healers is spent on AoE heals, and the healers can't output any damage, there's your healing meta. Hope you enjoy running out of MP after 3 min.

---

Sigh, why does everyone take someones argument and assume the worst possible case scenario as the only viable outcome. No I did not ask to bottom MP out after 3 minutes, no I am not asking that everyone take 50% hp every 3 seconds, and no I'm not asking that every GCD be spent healing.

How does "I would appreciate a more healing focused meta" Translate to I want to heal 50%HP of every party member every 3 seconds, continue GCDing healing spells and be unable to do any DPS.

Screw it, I got a headache and im just going to play the game. Healers are going to continue mostly DPSing in stormblood anyway. Scholar is my 3rd job on my favorite to play list. I'd care more if the conversation was about warrior.

Edit: And Ama, I don't mean anything against whm even if you seem to think I have been attacking the class. I enjoyed whm back in 2.0 somewhat but left it due to this same DPS meta. I found scholar more fun probably cause of its mitigation meta more so than its ability to heal. If you think my opinions not an opinion or whatever so be it, whatever helps you sleep at night. You keep bringing up flare for the MP comparison but I have been talking about fire II with 3 astral fire stacks which is 26XXMP and I stated that already. I don't know how many times I have to restate stuff to you. Its just not worth it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Sigh, why does everyone take someones argument and assume the worst possible case scenario as the only viable outcome. No I did not ask to bottom MP out after 3minutes, no I am not asking that everyone take 50% hp every 3 seconds, and no I'm not asking that every GCD be spent healing.

How does "I would appreciate a more healing focused meta" Translate to I want to heal 50%HP of every party member every 3 seconds, continue GCDing healing spells and be unable to do any DPS.

Screw it, I got a headache and im just going to play the game. Healers are going to continue mostly DPSing in stormblood anyway. Scholar is my 3rd job on my favorite to play list. I'd care more if the conversation was about warrior.

Edit: And Ama, I don't mean anything against whm even if you seem to think I have been attacking the class. I enjoyed whm back in 2.0 somewhat but left it due to this same DPS meta. I found scholar more fun probably cause of its mitigation meta more so than its ability to heal. If you think my opinions not an opinion or whatever so be it, whatever helps you sleep at night.

---

Easy, because that is the only way to make it so healing does not have downtime like you want? (downtime as in sitting there not doing anything) If you increase MP use for DPS spells and increase the need of healing, you are just increasing downtime and making the game boring and most so hurting WHM. You only have one healing job to speak out of, the EASIEST healing job to manage DPS, MP, and healing. A lot of times in leveling DF you are 100% clerics cept maybe some bosses and some over the top mega pulls.

I really disagree with someone suggesting a change to the game that does not even have experience, that is why it matters.

I'm totally insane. With that said, why don't we turn cleric stance from it's current form to something like permanent -XX% healing while giving an AOE aura around them that allows the group to do +XX% damage within range.
Redo the damage stat from INT to MND on the healer.

This solves new/uncomfortable healers, they don't need to turn on cleric stance.
This solves elite healers that can heal with the penalty, give a group damage buff, and still contribute their own dps.
This solves healers who want to be heal only (out of principle), at least they can turn on the buff and spam cures like they want but the group still gets the benefit.

Of course the scaling needs to be figured out so it doesn't become insanely OP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stormbad

I'm totally insane. With that said, why don't we turn cleric stance from it's current form to something like permanent -XX% healing while giving an AOE aura around them that allows the group to do +XX% damage within range.
Redo the damage stat from INT to MND on the healer.

This solves new/uncomfortable healers, they don't need to turn on cleric stance.
This solves elite healers that can heal with the penalty, give a group damage buff, and still contribute their own dps.
This solves healers who want to be heal only (out of principle), at least they can turn on the buff and spam cures like they want but the group still gets the benefit.

Of course the scaling needs to be figured out so it doesn't become insanely OP.

---

I am for keeping clerics (although I wouldn't mind the removal of the CD) and this is actually a pretty cool idea. Maybe if they don't do something like this with clerics, they can put this on a future healer instead.

Make Cleric Stance like the stances of AST, not switchable during combat.
This way Healers are not forced to do damage during party and still can do dmg solo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

Make Cleric Stance like the stances of AST, not switchable during combat.
This way Healers are not forced to do damage during party and still can do dmg solo.

---

Fantastic idea, that way I can run expert roulette and have little more to do than just hitting one ability every 10 seconds or so.

:/

Sarcasm aside, taking the 'problem' and simply putting it in someone else's lap isn't much of a solution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

Make Cleric Stance like the stances of AST, not switchable during combat.
This way Healers are not forced to do damage during party and still can do dmg solo.

---

So you are asking healers be board of their mind during group content because some people can't manage putting cleric stance on? I still do not get why people pick on cleric stance like this and not tank stances.. and they got TWO!

Remember what this thread was meant to be, that suggestion will make people stop playing healer more then bring in

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ErryK

That's incorrect:
http://i.imgur.com/Ag3nFh1.pnghttps://i.gyazo.com/631468c8fab8b556...2677f687d0.png

You're saying I'd need minimum 1133MP to cast Flare, but I'm sitting at 979MP and able to cast it.

---

That so? I just remember checking in 2.x and got that as an answer, and googled it again before my last post and got the same answer.

Not sayin' you're wrong though- just makes me wonder what the minimum MP formula is even more then. Thanks for shedding light on that!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

So you are asking healers be board of their mind during group content because some people can't manage putting cleric stance on? I still do not get why people pick on cleric stance like this and not tank stances.. and they got TWO!

Remember what this thread was meant to be, that suggestion will make people stop playing healer more then bring in

---

I really tire of hearing "If you don't let healers DPS you're gonna lose all your healers". I mean, if my WHM in any given party only was playing WHM to DPS, I'd want that pile of rubbish out of my party. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that idea is great either, but I understand that Cleric Stance is MOSTLY there so healing classes can do solo content comfortably. Just like Sword Oath is.

There are ways to work this, but the fundamental to take away is "Trying to give healers more DPS won't give you more healers, it will give you more DPS playing healers to DPS". If you want to attract more healers who actually want to frickin' heal, the goal is to make healing more fun, not make DPSing easier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stormbad

I'm totally insane. With that said, why don't we turn cleric stance from it's current form to something like permanent -XX% healing while giving an AOE aura around them that allows the group to do +XX% damage within range.
Redo the damage stat from INT to MND on the healer.

This solves new/uncomfortable healers, they don't need to turn on cleric stance.
This solves elite healers that can heal with the penalty, give a group damage buff, and still contribute their own dps.
This solves healers who want to be heal only (out of principle), at least they can turn on the buff and spam cures like they want but the group still gets the benefit.

Of course the scaling needs to be figured out so it doesn't become insanely OP.

---

They'd be much closer to what BRD should have been at that point, traditionally. I'd be for that, to be honest, but I don't see that ever happening. The devs, have been vehemently against the idea of breaking the holy trinity. They've also shown time and time again that they don't know how to balance the idea of "support" or educate people by encouraging them on how or when to use it. To be fair, balancing it would be absurd, given how quickly this game introduces better gear (and scaling becomes ridiculous).

In terms of disappointment avoidance, I'd rather see them likely succeed making a DPS healer (e.g. automatic smart heals) that also has direct heal spells for when shit hits the fan or MT healing, rather than fail miserably trying to figure out support skills/spells, as they constantly do/did with BRD/MCH/AST.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Welsper59

In terms of disappointment avoidance, I'd rather see them likely succeed making a DPS healer (e.g. automatic smart heals) that also has direct heal spells for when shit hits the fan or MT healing, rather than fail miserably trying to figure out support skills/spells, as they constantly do/did with BRD/MCH/AST.

---

Any spitball conceptual examples? I'd sincerely like to hear more on this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Any spitball conceptual examples? I'd sincerely like to hear more on this.

---

Think like Assize but not as a cooldown with tweaked numbers. Things that both do DPS and heal, or heal in skewed percentages on who needs more, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Any spitball conceptual examples? I'd sincerely like to hear more on this.

---

You mean in terms of the DPS healer? Pretty much what Atlaworks said below your post. If you've played WoW, it'd be akin to Discipline Priest during various points of the game. I think some other MMORPGs sport this style too... maybe Rift or Allods? I can't remember.

Basically, you do DPS as you normally would, but it simultaneously heals someone, where the game prioritizes who gets healed through the Smart Healing system by a percentage of damage done. Usually this means healing the person with lowest HP. On some occasions, this works with AoE spells as well, where it'll do damage AND heal people in radius. Obviously, as a healer, you'll want some manual spells to heal with too (and AoE heals), so those are usually available as well, though your options may not be as versatile or powerful as the more traditional healer. Perhaps either extremely weak or no Regen effects, for example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Welsper59

You mean in terms of the DPS healer? Pretty much what Atlaworks said below your post. If you've played WoW, it'd be akin to Discipline Priest during various points of the game. I think some other MMORPGs sport this style too... maybe Rift or Allods? I can't remember.

Basically, you do DPS as you normally would, but the game prioritizes who gets healed through the Smart Healing system by a percentage of damage done. Usually this means healing the person with lowest HP. On some occasions, this works with AoE spells as well, where it'll do damage AND heal people in radius. Obviously, as a healer, you'll want some manual spells to heal with too (and AoE heals), so those are usually available as well, though your options may not be as versatile or powerful as the more traditional healer. Perhaps either extremely weak or no Regen effects, for example.

---

Disc Priests were the only example I readily had in mind by which to envision it, but in practice Legion Disc has always been rather... dull, to me (compared to, say, an Elemental Shaman or Mistweaver Monk in less healing-intensive encounters), so I was wondering if there were any other widely known examples out there. What were the Rift DPS healers like, for instance? Also, would this Smart Healing system end up something that remains unique to these DPS healers or likely spread throughout revamps to all of them, but with these DPS healers simply benefiting most from that system and others like it?

I'll try to work out some more spitball concepts when I've time again. I'd like to know if they can at all fit in with your envisioned goal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlaworks

I really tire of hearing "If you don't let healers DPS you're gonna lose all your healers". I mean, if my WHM in any given party only was playing WHM to DPS, I'd want that pile of rubbish out of my party. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that idea is great either, but I understand that Cleric Stance is MOSTLY there so healing classes can do solo content comfortably. Just like Sword Oath is.

There are ways to work this, but the fundamental to take away is "Trying to give healers more DPS won't give you more healers, it will give you more DPS playing healers to DPS". If you want to attract more healers who actually want to frickin' heal, the goal is to make healing more fun, not make DPSing easier.

---

The issue is the healing in this game is dull. The solution to that would be to nerf the potency of the healing in this game and adjust fight mechanics to both accommodate that. Simply put, as the game currently functions a healer that can only heal would spend a massive amount of time just doing nothing which is extremely boring. Imagine a scenario where you could only use one dps skill every 10 seconds or so. That would be pretty much what it would be like to heal anything minus any sense of progression since healing is more about sustaining the norm rather than working towards a goal.

I don't see them fixing the fundamental issues with the healing mechanics which has lead to healers focusing so much on dps. As it is I am pretty content with the additional challenge of knowing how to time my stance dancing to do dps without putting my healing at risk. The DPS I bring isn't necessary. They don't balance the fight around it. If a healer doesn't dps that doesn't make anything take longer than intended unless your other roles are underperforming. But having the option to use cleric stance to dps adds a risk reward aspect to the role that can feel rewarding to master.

The thing is that what would be required to make healing more fun would be inherently unpopular. No one likes getting nerfed, particularly since they would be across the board nerfs and all healers would feel seriously gimped from what they are used to, but also there are many who have come to like the existing model. Frankly the only option I see for them going forward is pretty much to build of what they have already done but include the aspect cleric stance brings where it creates some level of skill/risk in dpsing effectively.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Welsper59

You mean in terms of the DPS healer? Pretty much what Atlaworks said below your post. If you've played WoW, it'd be akin to Discipline Priest during various points of the game. I think some other MMORPGs sport this style too... maybe Rift or Allods? I can't remember.

---

I really liked the Chloromancer in RIFT in terms of a DPS healer. You also have the Runemaster type mechanic/idea from LOTR:O

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Disc Priests were the only example I readily had in mind by which to envision it, but in practice Legion Disc has always been rather... dull, to me (compared to, say, an Elemental Shaman or Mistweaver Monk in less healing-intensive encounters), so I was wondering if there were any other widely known examples out there. What were the Rift DPS healers like, for instance? Also, would this Smart Healing system end up something that remains unique to these DPS healers or likely spread throughout revamps to all of them, but with these DPS healers simply benefiting most from that system and others like it?

I'll try to work out some more spitball concepts when I've time again. I'd like to know if they can at all fit in with your envisioned goal.

---

Disc has changed so much and so damn often in WoW, that I daresay it's among the most unstable classes/specs in the game in terms of how-to-play and lifespan lol. I don't remember Rift DPS healing very much, as I might be confusing it for a tank class that was basically Unholy DK's in WoW, except those DoTs healed only you as they did damage. Allods, however, was a melee healer, where similar to Disc Priest before (not sure about now, since I haven't done anything with the class), you'd do an action that did a stacking debuff on the target (or it applied a buff on yourself), and use a skill/spell that used up that debuff to heal your party.

Honestly, I'd just think of it as something unique to that specific job. Maybe as a stepping stone for future healers (or mechanics for other roles). It'd essentially be the "EZ Mode" healer, the one that based on this topic, would be the one to bring a larger crowd to the role. A lot of people seem to be hailing the Cleric Stance as a "fun" mechanic that offers a bit of challenge they enjoy. I think while that's absolutely true for some, for others it's merely an e-peen statement. This DPS healer would basically be proof of that, should any Cleric Stance advocates decide to switch over (assuming no real differences in DPS output or exceptionally unique style to do your DPS). For those folks, it's a "whatever" situation, but I don't like the idea of taking away Cleric Stance from those that truly do enjoy it.

I don't really have an envisioned goal of sorts that strays far from certain eras of Disc Priest lol. It's a pretty simple concept that is open to criticism and further balancing. We technically already do it now, with the focus of ALL roles being DPS. I mean, if people are afraid of the idea it'd be too powerful (it shouldn't be any different than the output of current healers), then they have to just ask themselves "why?" Why would it be OP if the output were ideally similar? Then follow it up with what they would rather do in the situation presented by topics like this? And especially in topics regarding healers not DPSing. I would figure the only ones that would be against the idea of a dedicated DPS healer, at least in theory, are the very same ones that might complain about healers currently not DPSing lol. "Play it my way, because I had to struggle to learn" sort of people.

I get it if the devs aren't for it, simply based on the design philosophy that it's not mandatory for healers to DPS, but given how the general player mentality about that works... I don't think many care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reiryuu

I really liked the Chloromancer in RIFT in terms of a DPS healer. You also have the Runemaster type mechanic/idea from LOTR:O

---

I seriously don't remember that class lol. I didn't play RIFT for very long though, so I guess that's not surprising.

I hate the stance dancing play-style and it is the main reason I don't touch healing in this game. People like their stance dancing I get that, but that doesn't mean those who don't like it shouldn't have an option. I wish cleric stance was removed and replaced with something specific for a single job (preferably scholar). That way those who enjoy stance dancing will have their option and those who don't have theirs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlaworks

That so? I just remember checking in 2.x and got that as an answer, and googled it again before my last post and got the same answer.
Not sayin' you're wrong though- just makes me wonder what the minimum MP formula is even more then. Thanks for shedding light on that!


I really tire of hearing "If you don't let healers DPS you're gonna lose all your healers". I mean, if my WHM in any given party only was playing WHM to DPS, I'd want that pile of rubbish out of my party. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that idea is great either, but I understand that Cleric Stance is MOSTLY there so healing classes can do solo content comfortably. Just like Sword Oath is.

There are ways to work this, but the fundamental to take away is "Trying to give healers more DPS won't give you more healers, it will give you more DPS playing healers to DPS". If you want to attract more healers who actually want to frickin' heal, the goal is to make healing more fun, not make DPSing easier.

---

You are not reading that correctly, if you suddenly change the game to make healers dps less, You will lose players that play healing roles in this game. I do not care if you are sick of it or not, fact is fact and people said so they will quit healing if they impact changes to take such effects. You want to make healing more fun? How about not having us do nothing for 2-3 minutes? that is why healers need respectable dps, something to do.

Also you are right, I am sick of DPS on tank jobs, take away Deliverance. We should take away, shield oath, sword oath, Defiance, Deliverance, grit, and make tanks do weak damage but take damage like they do now with their defensive ones, otherwise you will have 8 warriors rushes. Stance switching is too complex and needs to be made easier. that is what tone this thread sounds like when talking about why we need to remove cleric.

"I mean, if my WAR in any given party only was playing WAR to DPS, I'd want that pile of rubbish out of my party" (You can easily change job and ill fit)

And you will be very hard pressed to find a tank, maybe you have fun with one of them perma grit drks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiro--Tsubasa

I hate the stance dancing play-style and it is the main reason I don't touch healing in this game. People like their stance dancing I get that, but that doesn't mean those who don't like it shouldn't have an option. I wish cleric stance was removed and replaced with something specific for a single job (preferably scholar). That way those who enjoy stance dancing will have their option and those who don't have theirs.

---

and tanks is ok? it is a lot "harder" then cleric is. I still do not understand why people jump on cleric stance and are fine with tank stances when they are more of a pain to do well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

and tanks is ok? it is a lot "harder" then cleric is. I still do not understand why people jump on cleric stance and are fine with tank stances when they are more of a pain to do well.

---

The topic is about healers not tanks, if I brought up tanks I would be going off topic. Although yes, I don't like stance dancing on tanks either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Welsper59

You mean in terms of the DPS healer? Pretty much what Atlaworks said below your post. If you've played WoW, it'd be akin to Discipline Priest during various points of the game. I think some other MMORPGs sport this style too... maybe Rift or Allods?

---

Chloromancer is a far better example than Legion discipline priest, IMO. The horrible things Blizz did to disc priest have turned it into a shadow of what it once was. Meanwhile, Chloromancer is a fully fleshed out dps-healer with abilities that truly sync up with each other.

Gawd I'd love a chloromancer-like class in FFXIV!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlaworks

I really tire of hearing "If you don't let healers DPS you're gonna lose all your healers". I mean, if my WHM in any given party only was playing WHM to DPS, I'd want that pile of rubbish out of my party.

---

Many healer players, myself included, are playing the jobs precisely because they're hybrid type jobs in this game. If they were simplified by dropping half of their toolkit, many of those people would stop playing them. And wanting to play a hybrid type job (especially one that can be pretty demanding to optimise in the hardest content) does not make anyone "a pile of rubbish" as a player. In fact, one could argue the opposite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that idea is great either, but I understand that Cleric Stance is MOSTLY there so healing classes can do solo content comfortably. Just like Sword Oath is.

---

With how the game is currently played (and hence designed), both Cleric Stance and tank DPS stances play a major part throughout the group content, so there's no base to this argument.