Tank dps harrasment

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Originally Posted by Taika

They're based on parsing which is against ToS, yes (although the developers openly turn a blind eye to it).
(Edit: I don't know if it would be possible to have a similar site but upgrade direct game log data instead of taking it through a parser. But yeah, as already pointed out, the parser basically just reads your game battle log.) But having your logs up there does not mean you have been parsing, it just means someone in your group has. During the discussion in the latest parser thread, I checked there were over 110 000 public group parses just for OS1, so there are almost 900 000 player parses just for that fight (of course there are generally multiple parses for one player). If SE was to ban all the people who they'd find there, well, you can imagine what that would do to the playerbase (in fact, they would ban you).

You really need to separate harassment from stating numbers though, those are two very different things.

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I know you don't need personally parse to have data FFlogs but the fact that data is uploaded and displayed without the consent of the players is worrying given the trend to abuse the data offered by the site.

I also didn't mean to imply that people that have data on FFlogs should be banned (as that would be almost everyone who's been in savage). FFlogs should have a consent in system though.
Also I feel this is getting a tad off topic

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

the fact that data is uploaded and displayed without the consent of the players is worrying given the trend to abuse the data offered by the site.

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Where is this "trend to abuse the data"? What do you mean by that? I have done a lot of Savage and extreme pugging in SB, and I have only once in that entire time seen a person being excluded from a group because of their numbers. It was OS4 first clear party, the person was a DD, and the group could not have beaten the fight with that person. Cases like this are not "abuse", they are using objective data to make informed decisions - in this case one that prevented one person from ruining the group. Having high DPS farm groups where low rank players aren't allowed also isn't abuse - it's about being open about your expectations and allowing similar minded and skilled people to play together at their own level.

Sure the OP has told how they were kicked from a DF dungeon because of DPS, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't count as a "trend" either, since everyone here seems to 100% agree with it being completely ridiculous.

Edit: As far as I know, I think you're allowed to hide your own data from FFlogs too. I understand it's not the same than asking your permission to show it in the first place, but at least it's there.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Lastly, there's nothing in the ToS against checking players' logs and including or excluding them from groups because of that. It's done all the time, even as written in party finder descriptions, and there is nothing that has been or will be done against it, since checking someone's logs doesn't even mean you're using a parser. All it means is you're browsing a website. That's like saying you're reporting people for saying they've checked your Lodestone profile. :D (Of course harassment based on someone's logs is and should be a reportable offense, but simply pointing out that your public records for a particular fight are too low for a group's requirements is not harassment.)

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Well technically you're right the ToS violation is actually the physical act of having a parser so referencing FFlogs wouldn't actually be a violation. Technically. It is still data that a player should not have access to though and I certainly wouldn't imagine using that as grounds for exclusion (even in a polite, non-harassment manner) would get you very far if you got reported and had actually mentioned it in game.

Tbh... I really don't give a rats butt as long as you keep agro in casual/semi casual contents.

The moment you screw up mechanics or lose agro, then I'll speak up, but I won't kick you before giving you chances...

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Originally Posted by CaTi

It is still data that a player should not have access to though

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What, I'm not allowed to calculate my and my party members' DPS from my battle log and post it on a site where everyone else does the same? :)

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Originally Posted by Taika

Edit: As far as I know, I think you're allowed to hide your own data from FFlogs too. I understand it's not the same than asking your permission to show it in the first place, but at least it's there.

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Yeah but you have to actually sign up and "claim" your character first I believe. And some people are naturally wary of third party sites. It's not ideal really :/

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Originally Posted by Taika

What, I'm not allowed to calculate my and my part members' DPS from my battle log and post it on a site where everyone else does the same? :)

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Heh Touché, you're quick I'll give you that. :)

Take a thumbs up

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Originally Posted by Xerek

According to that, given enough game time, anyone could become the best player on the server on any class. You honestly don't believe people have skill ceilings?

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I honestly believe that anyone will become as good as they want to be. Call me a hopeless optimist if you will.

And yes, this even applies to the current best player on the server. On the data center. In the game. Everybody always has room to improve, and will only be as proficient as they want to be at the game.

Our community has hit such a low, at this point I just turn off party chat in group content. Its really sad given how friendly and positive people were like during ARR.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I honestly believe that anyone will become as good as they want to be. Call me a hopeless optimist if you will.

And yes, this even applies to the current best player on the server. On the data center. In the game. Everybody always has room to improve, and will only be as proficient as they want to be at the game.

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people dont have to play with bad players and we have no obligation to teach them i play FF for an hour a night im not wasting my sub on someone that has hours to play in a rhetorical manner kick them first differences in playstyle and even if your parsing just dont call them out just boot

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Originally Posted by Arkturius

people dont have to play with bad players and we have no obligation to teach them i play FF for an hour a night im not wasting my sub on someone that has hours to play in a rhetorical manner kick them first differences in playstyle and even if your parsing just dont call them out just boot

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You don't know that person's circumstances. You're making assumptions based on nothing. For all you know, that person can have even less time to play than you do and they just got kicked out of the content because of someone who's using something the game doesn't even officially allow

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I honestly believe that anyone will become as good as they want to be. Call me a hopeless optimist if you will.

And yes, this even applies to the current best player on the server. On the data center. In the game. Everybody always has room to improve, and will only be as proficient as they want to be at the game.

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This is the mentality I share when it comes to raiding. Success is everyone's responsibility and success is dependent on DPS. Therefore, DPS is everyone's responsibility. No one is exempt, not tanks and not healers. If you try to push that responsibility off on someone else because you don't care to improve you don't belong in high end content.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Where is this "trend to abuse the data"? What do you mean by that? I have done a lot of Savage and extreme pugging in SB, and I have only once in that entire time seen a person being excluded from a group because of their numbers. It was OS4 first clear party, the person was a DD, and the group could not have beaten the fight with that person. Cases like this are not "abuse", they are using objective data to make informed decisions - in this case one that prevented one person from ruining the group. Having high DPS farm groups where low rank players aren't allowed also isn't abuse - it's about being open about your expectations and allowing similar minded and skilled people to play together at their own level.

Sure the OP has told how they were kicked from a DF dungeon because of DPS, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't count as a "trend" either, since everyone here seems to 100% agree with it being completely ridiculous.

Edit: As far as I know, I think you're allowed to hide your own data from FFlogs too. I understand it's not the same than asking your permission to show it in the first place, but at least it's there.

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I might be exaggerating the trend to myself but I have seen more cases than I'd like to of people looking up other players from the forums and calling them out on there performance. I can't say using it to check on people sits well with me, it might makes sense at very high level play but I'd be very worried if that trickles down in to the midcore

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I might be exaggerating the trend to myself but I have seen more cases than I'd like to of people looking up other players from the forums and calling them out on there performance.

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Can you post some links if there truly are that many cases? I saw one in this thread, but that was a person who called for others to look their logs, so doesn't really count as such. :) I also remember another recent case of a person talking about how they're doing really well in their job without the parser, to which someone replied with their logs pointing out the opposite, but I don't remember ever seeing people bringing up other players' numbers in a situation in which the numbers wouldn't be relevant to the discussion (like in these two examples).

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Originally Posted by Arkturius

people dont have to play with bad players and we have no obligation to teach them i play FF for an hour a night im not wasting my sub on someone that has hours to play in a rhetorical manner kick them first differences in playstyle and even if your parsing just dont call them out just boot

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Yes because kicking somebody so you don't have to "waste your sub" absolutely doesn't waste that person's time...

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Originally Posted by Taika

Can you post some links if there truly are that many cases? I saw one in this thread, but that was a person who called for others to look their logs, so doesn't really count as such. :) I also remember another recent case of a person talking about how they're doing really well in their job without the parser, to which someone replied with their logs pointing out the opposite, but I don't remember ever seeing people bringing up other players' numbers in a situation in which the numbers wouldn't be relevant to the discussion (like in these two examples).

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I've seen it a couple times, but it was always a reaction to someone making an outrageous statement about a class they clearly had no idea how to play. Something like:
Player A: pld is the worst tank ever because they have a shield
Player B: you've only cleared 01s and have all gray parses, you clearly don't know how to play pld
Player A: omg you filthy elitist I know how to play perfectly just because I'm not 99th percentile doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about
Player C: Healers can't dps during downtime because they have to stop healing to dps

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

I wish more people understood this like you. FFLogs provides nothing but numbers with no context. It tells you absolutely nothing about the player. And from what I've seen it doesn't even track all content in the game? So that's an even less useful picture.

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This is false—FFLogs can track uploaded data down to the GCD. It shows what casts each party member made, what buffs were used, what spells, what healing was done, etc.; it even has a Replay function that plays back the entire fight for you to analyze. It show deaths, what the killing blow was, how much damage the person took, any and all debuffs people had. It shows everything. With regards to the content it tracks, the only logs that matter are Savage and Ultimate logs. Who cares about parses from dungeons or even the 24-man? No one; raiders recruiting for statics or looking for statics only care about Savage/Ultimate parses. I don’t even think they care much about Ex trials.

EDIT: With regards to the percentiles and numbers, people cannot just look at the gray/green/blue/purple/orange number and take it for surface value. You have to look deeper. I have some really ugly logs on FFLogs: a lot where I have died due to my own mistakes (looking at you, V3S reapers) and a lot where I have died to other mistakes, like lack of healing or being clipped (my V3S clear had 3 deaths, two of which I was clipped by another person’s Folio—it was 9th percentile and definitely not my finest moment). You have to look at comp—a BRD or MCH with a DRG is going to automatically have higher numbers against a BRD or MCH that doesn’t have a DRG. rDPS is going to be higher if you’re running with multiple jobs that buff everyone (like NIN’s TA, DRG’s Litany) compared to if you’re running with a comp that has no buffs/synergy. You can look at some of the oranges and dig deeper to see if the person was catered to for the run: if you look at a parse and see that the MNK got 12 Balances, 5 Spears, and 7 Arrows, while the rest of the group only received AOE/Expanded cards, it’s pretty obvious that MNK was being padded that run.

In other words, you cannot take the numbers at surface value—you have to look deeper into them. Why were the numbers grey? Did the person die a lot? Were they not being healed? Did they stay in tank stance spamming their enmity combo, or were they actually stance-dancing while spamming DPS combos? You have to dig deeper. And that’s what FFLogs is there for: deeper analysis so that people can improve.

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Originally Posted by Arkturius

people dont have to play with bad players and we have no obligation to teach them i play FF for an hour a night im not wasting my sub on someone that has hours to play in a rhetorical manner kick them first differences in playstyle and even if your parsing just dont call them out just boot

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I never said anybody has to play with anybody. I was responding to someone asking me if I believe there is a ceiling to player ability.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Our community has hit such a low, at this point I just turn off party chat in group content. Its really sad given how friendly and positive people were like during ARR.

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When I'm honest, I think that as friendly. Honestly if I don't tell a player to get better, they will eventually meet them. I'm not going to let some player stay bad just to be ''kind'' to him or her, I tell them to get better and if they do improve I'm happy about it. But sorry to say, why should I play better just a player can slack way harder than the rest?

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I hate to break it to you, but as you are in a party with them that they created it is absolutely their business to know what your skill level is.

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Hate to break it to you, but:

1) At the very least, you'll have to agree that if they are NOT in my party, then they have no business, which is what that site is for; and

2) No, it's NOT their business, tyvm. Especially random data plucked from who-knows-what situations.

Either way, you're wrong.

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

Hate to break it to you, but:

1) At the very least, you'll have to agree that if they are NOT in my party, then they have no business, which is what that site is for; and

2) No, it's NOT their business, tyvm. Especially random data plucked from who-knows-what situations.

Either way, you're wrong.

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If you arent pulling your own weight in a PF who expect good or decent dps to kill before enrage, then yes its party leader business.

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

Hate to break it to you, but:

1) At the very least, you'll have to agree that if they are NOT in my party, then they have no business, which is what that site is for; and

2) No, it's NOT their business, tyvm. Especially random data plucked from who-knows-what situations.

Either way, you're wrong.

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They actually aren’t wrong. If you’re in someone’s PF, and they opt to try and figure out why the group is unable to clear a fight, they have every right and every business to dig into that. They can use any source they choose, unless you would prefer they blindly kick and/or disband the party (which, when that happens, usually means that party leader knows exactly what is wrong, but cannot say because of the threat of being reported over mentioning parsers; so they disband the group and re-recruit instead).

That being said, people usually don’t randomly search for people’s FFLogs uploads unless given a reason—which, the reason would be something like:

A.) a player joining one of their parties,
B.) looking to be a member of their static,
C.) being like some individuals I’ve seen and trying to talk big about themselves so people go looking for evidence to back up their claims,

Etc..

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

They actually aren’t wrong.

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Let me try to use an anology.

You try to go get a job. You're usually a decent, hardworking person. Your boss is all set to hire you, but then consults some site on which some random person (intentionally or otherwise) has uploaded images of you drunkenly vomiting all over the place.

From what you are trying to say, your boss should go by those logs, assume you are like that all the time, and not even bother seeing what you can bring to his team.

This is where we disagree.

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

Let me try to use an anology.

You try to go get a job. You're usually a decent, hardworking person. Your boss is all set to hire you, but then consults some site on which some random person (intentionally or otherwise) has uploaded images of you drunkenly vomiting all over the place.

From what you are trying to say, your boss should go by those logs, assume you are like that all the time, and not even bother seeing what you can bring to his team.

This is where we disagree.

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This already happens with:

-any social site like facebook
-background checks of various degrees

Buisinesses check your competence through references and interviews but they also want to know if your image fits their company. So yeah, a boss who finds you online with...less than savory circumstances may not hire you, before and/or after a personal interview.

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

Let me try to use an anology.

You try to go get a job. You're usually a decent, hardworking person. Your boss is all set to hire you, but then consults some site on which some random person (intentionally or otherwise) has uploaded images of you drunkenly vomiting all over the place.

From what you are trying to say, your boss should go by those logs, assume you are like that all the time, and not even bother seeing what you can bring to his team.

This is where we disagree.

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Actually, companies do use social media, and can base whether or not they hire a person on what is posted on their social media websites. They can also fire people for posting negative things about their companies on social media.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

When I'm honest, I think that as friendly. Honestly if I don't tell a player to get better, they will eventually meet them. I'm not going to let some player stay bad just to be ''kind'' to him or her, I tell them to get better and if they do improve I'm happy about it. But sorry to say, why should I play better just a player can slack way harder than the rest?

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The game is mind numbingly easy. Players don't need to be amazing to run any standard content. Frankly all this talk about players preforming the best they can is just retardedly absurd for the type of game that FF14 is.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

The game is mind numbingly easy. Players don't need to be amazing to run any standard content. Frankly all this talk about players preforming the best they can is just retardedly absurd for the type of game that FF14 is.

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Yes, it's so easy that you've had no problem clearing Savage or Extreme Trials, have you? That Lakshmi clear is real impressive.

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

Let me try to use an anology.

You try to go get a job. You're usually a decent, hardworking person. Your boss is all set to hire you, but then consults some site on which some random person (intentionally or otherwise) has uploaded images of you drunkenly vomiting all over the place.

From what you are trying to say, your boss should go by those logs, assume you are like that all the time, and not even bother seeing what you can bring to his team.

This is where we disagree.

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This is literally a thing that happens in real life every day.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

This already happens with:

-any social site like facebook
-background checks of various degrees

Buisinesses check your competence through references and interviews but they also want to know if your image fits their company. So yeah, a boss who finds you online with...less than savory circumstances may not hire you, before and/or after a personal interview.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Actually, companies do use social media, and can base whether or not they hire a person on what is posted on their social media websites. They can also fire people for posting negative things about their companies on social media.

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I'm not sure if you are actually seriously defending this or you didn't understand the analogy, or both.

No, HR teams will not decide to not hire you based on pictures of you vomiting all over the place (unless that job happens to be for a detox counselor or summat).

Further, you seem to have completely missed the point altogether--it would not be representative of your life as a whole, or of your aptitude for the job.

Just like some random bits posted to FFLogs without your consent are like not to be representative of your playstyle as a whole.



EDIT: And for some reason, you guys seem to have missed, this is not YOUR social media account we're talking bout.

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

I'm not sure if you are actually seriously defending this or you didn't understand the analogy, or both.

No, HR teams will not decide to not hire you based on pictures of you vomiting all over the place (unless that job happens to be for a detox counselor or summat).

Further, you seem to have completely missed the point altogether--it would not be representative of your life as a whole, or of your aptitude for the job.

Just like some random bits posted to FFLogs without your consent are like not to be representative of your playstyle as a whole.



EDIT: And for some reason, you guys seem to have missed, this is not YOUR social media account we're talking bout.

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Pick a better analogy. This one only works against you, there's no way to twist it that a company cannot dig as far into a potential employee as they please, and refuse to hire them for any misconduct they find.

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

I'm not sure if you are actually seriously defending this or you didn't understand the analogy, or both.

No, HR teams will not decide to not hire you based on pictures of you vomiting all over the place (unless that job happens to be for a detox counselor or summat).

Further, you seem to have completely missed the point altogether--it would not be representative of your life as a whole, or of your aptitude for the job.

Just like some random bits posted to FFLogs without your consent are like not to be representative of your playstyle as a whole.



EDIT: And for some reason, you guys seem to have missed, this is not YOUR social media account we're talking bout.

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It doesn’t matter if it’s YOUR account or not—if it’s out there, and connected to you in any way, and if your company finds out about it, they can and will choose to not hire you if it looks bad, and they will fire you if you’re already working there if, again, it looks bad—especially if it’s attached to any negativity towards the company themselves.

Because those pictures featuring you drunkenly vomiting everywhere reflects badly on the company. It doesn’t matter to them if it’s on your personal social media website or a website belonging to a friend or acquaintance; if the link to you is there, it’s still a reflection of you, and you would be a reflection of them as a prospective employee. If the company doesn’t want that bad reflection on their employee roster, then they will choose not to hire you.

It has nothing to do with defending FFLogs—this is something that literally occurs in every day life already. Most jobs, when you apply, they go over the social media policy with you (and every company has one). They also have you sign wavers allowing them to perform various background checks, which can include links to social media sites you are linked to. Your analogy was a very poor one to make to the conversation at hand.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Pick a better analogy. This one only works against you, there's no way to twist it that a company cannot dig as far into a potential employee as they please, and refuse to hire them for any misconduct they find.

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So when you find out what company will decide to fire you or not hire you because someone uploaded images of you vomiting, let me know.

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

I'm not sure if you are actually seriously defending this or you didn't understand the analogy, or both.

No, HR teams will not decide to not hire you based on pictures of you vomiting all over the place (unless that job happens to be for a detox counselor or summat).

Further, you seem to have completely missed the point altogether--it would not be representative of your life as a whole, or of your aptitude for the job.

Just like some random bits posted to FFLogs without your consent are like not to be representative of your playstyle as a whole..

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While I'll agree that clearly a mere few samples that were released without your notice are unlikely to be representative of your performance, let's choose a different analogy...

HR can and often will choose not to hire you based on your social media, as irrelevant as your actions therein may appear to your job or your ability to perform it.

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

So when you find out what company will decide to fire you or not hire you because someone uploaded images of you vomiting, let me know.

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Have you met the education industry, for starters?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While I'll agree that clearly a mere few samples that were released without your notice are unlikely to be representative of your performance, let's choose a different analogy...

HR can and often will choose not to hire you based on your social media, as irrelevant as your actions therein may appear to your job or your ability to perform it.

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On your social media, sure. If I went around and acted like an idiot on my social media, and did it constantly, then certainly some companies would choose not to hire me. Or if, while hired, I decided to represent the company in any way I wasn't supposed to ("Well I work for X, and I can say you're just an arse").

But that's the point--it's not something you yourself are doing, it's something others are doing without your consent.

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

Let me try to use an anology.

You try to go get a job. You're usually a decent, hardworking person. Your boss is all set to hire you, but then consults some site on which some random person (intentionally or otherwise) has uploaded images of you drunkenly vomiting all over the place.

From what you are trying to say, your boss should go by those logs, assume you are like that all the time, and not even bother seeing what you can bring to his team.

This is where we disagree.

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This is such a bad anology, because first of all I'm a small leader in one of the biggest firms in my country, so leave alone me wantng a drunk head. Plus we already look for peoples behavior through social media.
Most big firms do this and someone did get kicked for talking shit about the company in UK too. There was some news about it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Have you met the education industry, for starters?

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I have. Have you met tenure?

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

I have. Have you met tenure?

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Oh so tenure's just something they hand to every joe who walks in?

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

This is such a bad anology, because first of all I'm a small leader in one of the biggest firms in my country, so leave alone me wantng a drunk head. Plus we already look for peoples behavior through social media.
Most big firms do this and someone did get kicked for talking shit about the company in UK too. There was some news about it.

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"Most big firms will decide not to hire you if there exists a picture of you vomiting, because that means you are a drunk head."

Yeah... no. But you're displaying quite well why it's a bad idea--you're basing everything about that person on those images, and not how they regularly conduct themselves.

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

I have. Have you met tenure?

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If you truely think a great company or firm wants to hire a guy who gets shitdrunk every weekend and someone post pictures of him vomiting, that's BAD rep, very bad. I want my employers to actuall function at work and not be sick every monday. You honestly think boss/leaders doesn't look through this too? I even tho it's outside work, it can easily effect the firm/company too.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

If you truely think a great company or firm wants to hire a guy who gets shitdrunk every weekend and someone post pictures of him vomiting, that's BAD rep, very bad. I want my employers to actuall function at work and not be sick every monday. You honestly think boss/leaders doesn't look through this too? I even tho it's outside work, it can easily effect the firm/company too.

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See post above. You guys are great at proving my point for me--you're willing to base everything off this fictional situation based on those few images.