Just remove healers.

Ahh, i see you are taking the Ron Swanson approach to problem-solving. xD

https://i.imgur.com/rT4GgHm.gif

For the first: I disagree. Pressing 1-2-3 (no branching path) is not engaging or challenging. It's a fat-finger trap, not a skill check. I DO agree, however, that our rotation is supposed to be GCD healing, and we are denied it by current encounter design.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

Balance is a useless argument when the fun and enagement is not there, first make all the jobs more diverse and fun and then balance them like they did with the dps (disregard difficulty, basically a job should be appealing for what it brings and how fun it is) but in any way shape or form 1 nuke 1 dot should be the peak of the gameplay of a mmo healer.

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This is my point, though - they can't "balance" it because "doing more damage than the other one" doesn't work as a balance point for healers since they already do relatively low damage (vs the DPSers). Because of this, encounters are based around them doing a rough amount of damage. You can't have one really exceed (or fall below) this. AST is low but the buffs to the party's damage balance that out so that all healers come out relatively even. You can't reward someone juggling the 7 DoTs with more damage while they're still also a healer. It's like the problem with MCH being the "selfish DPS" of the Ranged subrole, a subrole that is balanced around doing less...damage...than the other DPS subroles.

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Or... because blm does not give an swift raise which is extremely valuable in prog scenario?

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But if damage > all, that shouldn't matter. Moreover, this is true of some other roles as well where that which is easier is more often picked than that which is harder IF they achieve the same basic result.

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Besides that argument of yours could be twisted very easily, if players want easy, then why Sage (which is an easier Sch) hasn't been present in either P4S WF and DSR WF? Why is that Whm hasnt been present there either? Why DSR WF had a Mnk instead of the more simple Rpr?

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SGE isn't easier than SCH. I say this as a person that plays both. They're honestly roughly comparable. I like SCH better because I feel its healing kit is more flexible (e.g. better) than SGE's to use. SGE is a control healer that is weak when the situation isn't well controlled while SCH has more buffer for that.

Wouldn't a job representation metric based on WF groups be heavily flawed and skewed a small spectrum of jobs anyways?
It would make more sense on seeing what jobs are clearing the content, to begin with, that's a much larger ratio.
When you're considering job balance the least of your concerns should be what the top percentile are doing with your game. That's exactly what WoW does and it makes the game transcendently worse. The Game at large is not about Progging metas or niche one-off scenarios. This thread is about removing a core role category. Under the pretense that this is necessity taking over, but it's not.

The OP himself started off complaining about how he had nobody in his friend group who wanted to play healer. (probably because it's a thankless job, where you get threads like this when people get a sliver of power and leeway, never accounting for the devs could take away those toys at any moment, it's very apparent there's a lot of hegemonization going on among classes in the attempt to continually produce new jobs every expansion)

Also isn't managing people's health where most of a healer's focus would go? What exactly would a rotation add to that gameplay experience? No kit far as I'm aware for a healer would have a sufficient gap closer to necessitate a 1-2-3 rotation except for our shield healers but if that's the case you sort of already got what you wanted playing those jobs. Pure healing jobs like Whitemage - We can't exactly weave healing in between if it's not required because that be a net loss. I wish for example we could get additional charges of Assize based off how many lilies we have or something so I could at least go assize (x3) pluse a nuke misery at the end. That be something.

To be quite honest I really don't like the rotations in FF because I don't have any real control over it. Baring gap closers you have no say in what is happening you're just pressing what procs, single target or multitarget. Whatever the game tells you to press. Even though I'm a glare mage and press 1 button I at least have the freedom to dash in with my arsenal of heals whatever I want inbetween. I don't feel limited. I may not ever have to use my full kit, but I have 100% access to it. It actually reminds me of leveling 1-50 back in the day was so painful, because I felt limited in my abilities. I think now I may have too many healing options is the real problem but at least I can use them as I see fit.

That might not be as engaging to you, but you've played healer before... you should know the engagement comes from the fact every fight for a healer is random set of new challenges not just the damage that is dished out. People aren't perfect, We make up for the mistakes that happen so people who can dps can continue to dps, As a healer your responisbility is not just keeping your party alive and contributing your share of dps but making sure you execute all the mechanics perfectly so you don't have to waste time healing yourself.

EDIT>>

And to mention one more thing. Any self heal is a DPS loss for a DPS or a Tank. I know we healers need to contribute to DPS but it's not our Jobs, We give you what we can give you but that's not what we are there for. Our Healing if we need to heal is so that the people who can deal the most damage can continue. If you need to press your self heal at anymoment as a DPS, it's probably because you're trying to circumvent mechanics you fudged up, but in that second you're casting a self heal you could have been casting more damage. You definitely do more damage than me as a healer... so where are your priorities actually wanting self heals?

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Originally Posted by Nadda

And to mention one more thing. Any self heal is a DPS loss for a DPS or a Tank.

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Not true. For example:

Warrior "Raw Intuition" is Instant and oGCD, "Restores HP with each weaponskill successfully delivered"
Melee DPS "Bloodbath" is Instant and oGCD, "Converts a portion of physical damage dealt into HP."
Dancer "Curing Waltz" is Instant and oGCD, "Restores own HP and the HP of all nearby party members."

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Not true. For example:
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Yes, those are good points. I wasn't forgetting to mention those on purpose they've been brought up already. The idea was to give people more self heals to circumvent the need for a healing role.

But more so I was saying before is you're weaving in these instead of doing more damage. Only the first two are self-healing based on dealing damage at least. Bloodbath is a bit of a meh because it really doesn't do enough to the point where you could say it's circumventing a healer, and you do have the caveat of needing to still be doing damage to the boss for it to be useful. Imagine a world where you pressed it right at the same moment you have to go avoid something. That healing becomes worthless.

Curing Waltz is just a good group healing ability for utility. It has a very small range but it's useful. Good for stacks I reckon. 60 second cool down is very perilous in a world where you need to do that more than once, unless we're class stacking dancers, so choosing when to use that heal is a big deal iunno (never played Dancer) I do know they are on the lowest end of the DPS role spectrum.. Showing at least there does have to be a sacrifice for that utility. This is more to my point that Healers are taking the DPS loss to support the group by design.

And Warriors...
Do you have any idea how grotesquely overpowered this job is? (don't get me wrong I love it but) You can't just pit me against this insane juggernaut of self-healing and tell me this is the way the game should be?? *Pinch Ears*

I'm like the bird picking off ticks on the back of a hippo with these guys. It's the one Tank out of them all that really doesn't need anybody else. When I talk about the game turning into a pseudo weird solo game where you don't need a group, I just imagine every job playing like Warrior in some way. But that's sort of the identity of Warrior just being this big barreling towards you unga bunga berserker.

Ahem* I digress enough Warrior gushing.
The point is we're at a point where we have all this utility, all this homogenization, strong tanks, and strong healers.
The game going forward is either going to have to become incredibly harder mechanically to really separate the boys from men. Like maybe Extreme just becomes the default. OR we're gonna get nerfed into oblivion next expansion. So people heavily relying on these things are gonna be in for a wake-up call.
This is why I called it Arrogant Ignorance. In my first post in this thread. People have a scrap of power and they think they own the world, but never stop to question why they have this power or where it comes from, and where it leads.
If we're gonna say fights are so easy we don't need healing which isn't true for the vast majority, do you honestly think the first gameplay change the devs will make is removing healing from their core design principles first? Remove White Mage from a Final Fantasy game? Of course they wouldn't!
It's not even an argument about what conclusion the Devs will make and what they'll go after first in order to restore balance.

Edit>> Third option I just thought of. They keep things as is. I mean there's no reason to make the game super difficult and extremely challenging for the majority of the player base. We should all be able to have fun playing what we want and we sort of have that right now. So maybe I'm wrong about it having to go either extreme... but I would say don't be surprised if you got your jobs nerfed first before they removed healers.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

Curing Waltz is just a good group healing ability for utility. It has a very small range but it's useful.

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Well, I left off that it also heals your dance partner and people near (within 3y of) them.
So partner with the tank and you can often heal the mDPS. Sheild Samba (10% damage protection) is the same way.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

I do know they are on the lowest end of the DPS role spectrum.

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I play Dancer because for me it's the most fun of the DPS classes to run. Yes, I can do more single-target damage on Reaper, but I like Dancer better.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

And Warriors...
Do you have any idea how grotesquely overpowered this job is? (don't get me wrong I love it but) You can't just pit me against this insane juggernaut of self-healing and tell me this is the way the game should be?? *Pinch Ears*

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Since I run WAR as well, yes, I have some idea.
But having watched a Paladin solo a ShB final boss from 43% down to dead, and never having played a Paladin I'm not ready to say that WAR stands out in this regard.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

When I talk about the game turning into a pseudo weird solo game where you don't need a group, I just imagine every job playing like Warrior in some way.

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I have put forth the proposition that, by design, most Light Party content can be cleared by any three of the four party members, if they're competent. My personal experience agrees with this proposition: I've finished dungeons after the tank, the healer, or a DPS DC'd, and it was slower but not that difficult. And I believe that the intent of this design decision is to allow clears even with one or two fresh sprouts in the party, or in spite of a single griefer.

I don't recall anyone demonstrating that this proposition is false, or even why it should be false.

And it's fine with me if this is true. I enjoy the game as it is: on SGE, on DNC, on WAR, and on most of the other classes I've leveled on the two characters that have reached endgame (and have leveled to 50-75 on the two other characters who haven't reached endgame yet).

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

I have put forth the proposition that, by design, most Light Party content can be cleared by any three of the four party members, if they're competent. My personal experience agrees with this proposition: I've finished dungeons after the tank, the healer, or a DPS DC'd, and it was slower but not that difficult. And I believe that the intent of this design decision is to allow clears even with one or two fresh sprouts in the party, or in spite of a single griefer.

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Yeah, I've definitely been in scenarios where I've two manned things as a healer. Even solo'd believe it or not. Really depends on the scenario. I think you're right about the intent. That's actually really clever I hadn't even considered that. That being said even though nobody dies on my watch I will say roulettes can be a mixed bag, I wish I had consistent competent groups so many people have.. iunno maybe it's more noticeable when you play healer that some runs with randoms can be... an interesting challenge to manage.

I think that dungeons should remain easy like this in the future nothing wrong with that. My whole point is I just disagree with this whole remove healers thing.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

For the first: I disagree. Pressing 1-2-3 (no branching path) is not engaging or challenging. It's a fat-finger trap, not a skill check. I DO agree, however, that our rotation is supposed to be GCD healing, and we are denied it by current encounter design.

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By the deffinition of the word it is more engaging than just pressing 1, as simple as that. I'm not saying it hard or the peak of the design but even something as basic as that is better than what we have now. The whole GCD healing is avery flawed mentality, a rotation is something that is always useful no matter the situation and thats why its rotating, healing by deffinition has a cap of usefulness and as such a GCD healing rotation only leads to a very unpleasant downtime gameplay and punishing players that know their role (good healers heal just enough because once again, healing has a cap)

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This is my point, though - they can't "balance" it because "doing more damage than the other one" doesn't work as a balance point for healers since they already do relatively low damage (vs the DPSers). Because of this, encounters are based around them doing a rough amount of damage. You can't have one really exceed (or fall below) this. AST is low but the buffs to the party's damage balance that out so that all healers come out relatively even. You can't reward someone juggling the 7 DoTs with more damage while they're still also a healer. It's like the problem with MCH being the "selfish DPS" of the Ranged subrole, a subrole that is balanced around doing less...damage...than the other DPS subroles.

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That is a completely non issue and you're assuming a lot of stuff when in reality things could be still balanced, the 7 dot job (which woudnt even need to have 7, just 3 would be enough for many) could do maybe a 0.5%-1% more dps than a simpler healer and it would still woudnt break the game, besides the whole 1 nuke and 1 dot shoudnt be what all healers have to do to deal damage, period, all of them should have their gameplay enhanced. Balance is compatible with good game design is just that healers dont have that design to begin with.

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But if damage > all, that shouldn't matter.

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In prog utility is very important, especially if you go after world 1st and even with that BLM is still brought to world 1st

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Moreover, this is true of some other roles as well where that which is easier is more often picked than that which is harder IF they achieve the same basic result.

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Except in the world 1st scenario is not, for people who do that high end content difficulty of a job is a non issue because you've already mastered it no matter the role. People brought a drk to uwu when it was said to be underpeforming, blm world 1st in tea and p4s had a blm, whm is not present in EW world 1st, both brd and dnc have been seen in dsr had a dnc in its world 1st and a brd in world 2nd. People play what they like as long as is not underperforming so much it becomes a liability.

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SGE isn't easier than SCH. I say this as a person that plays both. They're honestly roughly comparable

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It is and I say this as someone who has brought both to ultimate. Sch has to worry about ED optimization, can't cast shields while moving and has worse movement tools in scenarios with downtime, its perks like the fairy being able to heal 2 places at the same time also require planning to know where to place the fairy and stuff like deplo adlo requires previous knowledge about the fight, when the situation is not controlled Sage can still do the same as their kit are nearly identical. Both are easy jobs as every healer is but Sage is a simplified and less clunky Sch

I think rather than saying things like "my job should do more damage because [x]" at this point people should say "you get to have more fun, shut up"
SCH is already the highest rDPS healer in Savage, even beating out SGE. I absolutely think it should have 1-2 more DoTs to manage but I also think it shouldn't be doing more damage for it, in fact I wouldn't care if they nerfed SCH's damage to compensate. I get there are people who will complain about "I do more work than the other healers and I'm not doing way more damage" but who cares? You get to have more fun, that's your reward and that's what SE should say rather than "hmm I guess you're right, it doesn't make sense you do more work so we'll remove those buttons!"

I know people might say "well why would I bring SCH over another healer if I have to do more work for the same amount on DPS as the other healers" and I dunno, why do we do anything in games? Presumably to have fun? It's a hot take but it would be more fun if I had a few more DoTs to track. I don't care if my DPS numbers suffer as long as they're making the job more fun. I love Scholar, I want to play it all the time, it's the only job in this game that I genuinely have any feelings towards other than "yeah it's okay I guess" and I want to see it be the best that it can be.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

paladin and dark knight?

tanks are kind of in the same boat sure but their damage rotations are all different beyond "this one has assize, this one has energy drain instead, this one has phlegma instead, this one has earthly star!"

in fact they dont even have the same dps pattern as each other, unlike a certain role i know

https://i.imgur.com/pN7x7dC.png

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I know this is an old post, but given this graph (which for some reason only includes 2 tanks while including all 4 healers) it looks like the difference between WHM and AST are very similar to the difference in PLD and DRK, one has a much more steady line of DPS while the other has a few higher spikes.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I know this is an old post, but given this graph (which for some reason only includes 2 tanks while including all 4 healers) it looks like the difference between WHM and AST are very similar to the difference in PLD and DRK, one has a much more steady line of DPS while the other has a few higher spikes.

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whats your point? even with their differences whm and ast match more closely than drk and pld. i only included 2 tanks because i was responding to this and gave drk and pld as an example.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Point to me a tank that plays radically different from their 1,2,3 combos and tank stance on or off? Your argument falls flat here because tanks are in the same boat.

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the graphs were just supplementary info. even without them its clear that PLD and DRK have vastly different rotations. meanwhile all healers have virtually the same damage rotation, with at most 2 functionally different actions.

im not saying tanks have it super good because they too have been subject to the same crap healers have, but theyre still way ahead of healers in terms of rotational variance.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

Many words were said, also I like your glasses <3

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Ahem* You keep mentioning world first progging like that's a serious thing a majority of the players are going for or even yourself.
Who's doing world first seriously? That's such a small number of the player base its less than a fraction of a fraction. (because most people don't even touch the high end content)
If you were to focus on progression for progression's sake most people play whatever they like and get the clears regardless. The fights aren't designed in a way where you would be at a disadvantage taking any job, otherwise, that be a much bigger stigma at even the casual level. All jobs are designed to be mostly relative.
WF is no metric for anything.
Why are we using this as the defacto state of the game? By that metric, I shouldn't ever be able to clear things as a whitemage main. There was never a point where it felt like... ooo if only we had this much DPS to get over x hurdle... I mean maybe it did back in HW with Alexander... but like that was it.

I don't care what world first raiders are doing and neither should you friend. Just clear the content and have fun.

On another side note going on here I'm seeing people get stuck up on DPS for healers and all this other nonsense. We contribute DPS. We are not The DPS. That's not our role. Like I'd just like to have more options on my whitemage but people make it sound like it's objectively not fun unless I'm going through one of those horrid rotations. "Because it's more complex" When the game is literally telling me what to press. I hate rotations. I like being able to press whatever button I like in the best order I see fit. There's not a single rotation baring the oGCDs people weave in or potion they drank that isn't baked into the game.

That's what makes healing so much more fun. I have 100% access to use whatever I got in my healing arsenal at anytime use them in anyway I see fit. DPS rotations feel like punching in your pin number at an ATM to withdraw your abilities for damage. If we did get damage spells I don't want any of that lameness attached to me.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

I'm seeing people get stuck up on DPS for healers and all this other nonsense. We contribute DPS. We are not The DPS. That's not our role.

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Plus, the overly-simplistic analysis used by many of the "healers is broke" crowd overlooks the fact that sometimes, the best contribution we can make to raising team DPS (i.e., to lower the clear time) is to heal.

I first started thinking about this when one of the healers-is-broke crowd ranted about how he wasn't going to reduce his DPS by taking time off to heal a DPS that was intentionally standing in mob AoEs. "It's not my job to make his parse look good" was the complaint.

But consider this situation: there's a Reaper doing her single-target rotation: Slice - Waxing Slice - Infernal Slice, average potency 1140/3 = 380. If she has to step out of range of the target for a GCD to avoid an AoE, that's on average 380 potency (and 10 soul gauge) lost forever.

But let's say she knows her healer will support her, and stays there, killing the target.
And let's use the worst case, that the healer uses a GCD heal on the Reaper, giving up a Dosis, Glare, Broil, or whatever.

That's about 300 potency, give or take, worth of Healer DPS lost -- to gain 380 potency of Reaper DPS. Even assuming that the damage/potency ratio is the same for the two, that's an substantial gain in team damage. (When there are multiple melee DPS and you can AoE heal them, the DPS balance shifts even further in favor of healing them through the AoE.)

Realizing this, and recognizing that a lot of the incoming AoE in the game is piss weak, I've outright told melee DPS: "for this boss's AoEs, feel free to not dodge if it means staying engaged, I'll keep you up." Because it's a net gain for the team, even if my personal DPS goes down.

Making decisions like this -- employing tactics like this -- are part of what makes healing fun. No other role gets to do it.

And the healers who are too selfish or stupid to prioritize the team's total output over their own won't even think about doing it. Obsessed with their own DPS parse on a class that's not designed to DPS, it's no wonder they are unhappy.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Plus, the overly-simplistic analysis used by many of the "healers is broke" crowd overlooks the fact that sometimes, the best contribution we can make to raising team DPS (i.e., to lower the clear time) is to heal.

Realizing this, and recognizing that a lot of the incoming AoE in the game is piss weak, I've outright told melee DPS: "for this boss's AoEs, feel free to not dodge if it means staying engaged, I'll keep you up." Because it's a net gain for the team, even if my personal DPS goes down.

Making decisions like this -- employing tactics like this -- are part of what makes healing fun. No other role gets to do it.

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Exactly my point. The Healing Role as I've said many times before in this thread is designed to take the DPS loss so that the DPS roles can DPS more.
The old axiom is "Dead DPS do no DPS" but as you said in addition to that if you can compensate the heals to keep a DPS pressing their buttons so they can make better use of their resources you are contributing to the DPS by proxy of protecting and keeping up those that do the most damage.

People I believe who are DPS role orientated who play Healer on occasion I believe are more concerned about DPS parsing and rotations, but this play style doesn't suit a healer. The reason we have 100% access to all of our buttons is precisely how to use them tactically and most efficiently. Our contribution to DPS is minuscule for this purpose. The idea is to act selflessly that's the mindset of every person who picks up healing as a main job role. Is to help. So if the fight does less outgoing damage we can push these scenarios to greater limits.

Brilliant reasoning I whole heartedly agree.

Yet again, more fine examples of Dunning-Kruger at work in these forums. Brilliant, it's like watching a BBC nature documentary, now if only I had David Attenborough to read these...

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Yet again, more fine examples of Dunning-Kruger at work in these forums. Brilliant, it's like watching a BBC nature documentary, now if only I had David Attenborough to read these...

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I don't think people are incompetent - I think most of the people here are very competent but if we're gonna be using things like the world first and flowcharts to describe what we're talking about here - is a bit more extreme case than a legitimate reason to "Remove healers"

Besides, that ad hominem doesn't really serve your cause. It's easy to blanket people with whatever labels you want it won't make you any more or less superior. You shouldn't look down on others like that. A person of higher understanding should have the capability to communicate with those around them not insult them.

Edit>> And that's no slight against you. Clearly, you are a sophisticated person. But no greater or less so than the people here. Even those I disagree with. Respectfully. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

. Our contribution to DPS is minuscule for this purpose.

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Healers contribution to damage is about the same as a tank, or roughly 2/3 of a dps.

Okay, you're gonna have to throw me some rope here.
Otherwise, the exchange between others will get very exhausting having to repeat myself. Especially with a restrictive word limit.
I'm talking under the pretense that people already understand Healers contribute to DPS.
So that wasn't the point.

Yes, the breakdown of any group is we make up 2/3 of the DPS this core tenant is fundamental to how groups work, moving forward from this idea, however, there's obviously quite a large disparity between what my top DPS is as a White Mage I can provide to a Samurai. (To preface again equal contribution of DPS is essential for everyone)

The concept being as was described by Silverbane idea keeping DPS players up is more impactful to the groups success because they do more damage than you. That in effect it is our healing sometimes is the best contribution toward DPS efforts that is part of what our role provides.

If this is confusing please let me know where you have gotten lost so we may better understand each other.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

Okay, you're gonna have to throw me some rope here.
Otherwise, the exchange between others will get very exhausting having to repeat myself. Especially with a restrictive word limit.
I'm talking under the pretense that people already understand Healers contribute to DPS.
So that wasn't the point.

Yes, the breakdown of any group is we make up 2/3 of the DPS this core tenant is fundamental to how groups work, moving forward from this idea, however, there's obviously quite a large disparity between what my top DPS is as a White Mage I can provide to a Samurai. (To preface again equal contribution of DPS is essential for everyone)

The concept being as was described by Silverbane idea keeping DPS players up is more impactful to the groups success because they do more damage than you. That in effect it is our healing sometimes is the best contribution toward DPS efforts that is part of what our role provides.

If this is confusing please let me know where you have gotten lost so we may better understand each other.

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You completely ignore that you do both at the same time in almost every content at almost every time.
It is generally not "I can either Glare and let the dps die OR heal the dps and yaaaaayyyyy I contributed more with my heals <3". It is "I Glare while healing that dps" - which results in all healers easily contributing as much as a tank and roughly 2/3 of a dps. It has already been factored in that healing someone is preferable for group performance than letting them die for a dps GCD.

You do both at the same in almost every situation. The better you are at playing healer the easier this is to understand and execute.
A healer that still lacks practice will frequently chose to drop dps even if they could have fulfilled their primary role without it. There is nothing confusing about stating the obvious, nobody here every argued for refusing to heal at all costs because "muh Glare" or said that it's preferable to use Glare and let a dps die.
You and Silverbane simply ignore something very fundamental: healers heal and dps at the same time - their toolkits were designed for it. Which is why their active dps contribution is far from "miniscule". Fulfilling their primary role while dpsing is factored in with the abundant oGCD/ dps neutral heals they have.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Healers contribution to damage is about the same as a tank, or roughly 2/3 of a dps.

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This is not true. Even the best healer dmg parses (SGE) are completely behind the lowest dmg tank (PLD). Healer damage is not even close to tank damage. And AST is the worst dmg in the game right now by a good margin. The logs are there for anyone to see.

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Originally Posted by D6Damager

This is not true. Even the best healer dmg parses (SGE) are completely behind the lowest dmg tank (PLD). Healer damage is not even close to tank damage. And AST is the worst dmg in the game right now by a good margin. The logs are there for anyone to see.

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They are close though? Saying "Healer damage is not even close to tank damage" isn't true. Regardless, what is your point? Healers were doing more damage than tanks in ShB, so are you just being pedantic or do you have something to actually say?

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

They are close though? Saying "Healer damage is not even close to tank damage" isn't true. Regardless, what is your point? Healers were doing more damage than tanks in ShB, so are you just being pedantic or do you have something to actually say?

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I said what I wanted to say and I'll say it again just for you... healers are not doing the damage of tanks. That is false. Past expansions are irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by D6Damager

I said what I wanted to say and I'll say it again just for you... healers are not doing the damage of tanks. That is false. Past expansions are irrelevant.

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Okay, got it, you're just in here to be pedantic and provide nothing of value to any discussion. Next time you should save yourself the effort and energy, you clearly need it for other things.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Okay, got it, you're just in here to be pedantic and provide nothing of value to any discussion. Next time you should save yourself the effort and energy, you clearly need it for other things.

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Clearly, you're just here to troll. Take your own advice.

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Originally Posted by D6Damager

Clearly, you're just here to troll. Take your own advice.

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I accept your concession.

What? Looking at The Forbidden Website, Tanks are doing ballpark 5,300 DPS, and healers are doing ballpark 4,600 DPS. I'd argue that's close enough to make saying "Healer damage is not even close to tank damage." completely bunk.

And besides, you can also take your average clear, theoretically replace the healer dps with ones who aren't dpsing at all, and see clear as day that the group would no longer have the damage to meet the enrage.

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Originally Posted by D6Damager

I said what I wanted to say and I'll say it again just for you... healers are not doing the damage of tanks. That is false. Past expansions are irrelevant.

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This is P1S.

https://i.imgur.com/ecUm34X.png

And I'll even give you a chance and show a fight where healers actually have something to heal. Here is a P4S part 1.

https://i.imgur.com/vfgB1K7.png

Any snarky remarks? Now go back to your cave and stop trying to present your fantasies as some objective truth when they are so easily refutable.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

This is P1S.

https://i.imgur.com/ecUm34X.png

And I'll even give you a chance and show a fight where healers actually have something to heal. Here is a P4S part 1.

https://i.imgur.com/vfgB1K7.png

Any snarky remarks? Now go back to your cave and stop trying to present your fantasies as some objective truth when they are so easily refutable.

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Sure, I'll oblige you since you requested it. I'm sorry you don't understand how to read data; or understand statistics math.

I noticed I would overheal insanely on my astro.
Half of the healing spells (Im not referring to the buffing ones) seem unnecessary unless you have a really really crappy team.
A ton of buttons that keep me busy for absolutely nothing in the end, because as soon as we all get better gear and know mechanics, besides some regens here and there, everything else is just fluff. Its why I started playing mind numbingly easy sage. Dps dps dps, throw instant heal, rinse and repeat.
Healing was always my favourite activity in every game but now I came to accept Im just a less powerful dps with a healing ability here and there.
A little part of me died inside when they oversimplified my cards.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

You completely ignore that you do both at the same time in almost every content at almost every time.
It is generally not "I can either Glare and let the dps die OR heal the dps and yaaaaayyyyy I contributed more with my heals <3". It is "I Glare while healing that dps" - which results in all healers easily contributing as much as a tank and roughly 2/3 of a dps. It has already been factored in that healing someone is preferable for group performance than letting them die for a dps GCD.

You do both at the same in almost every situation. The better you are at playing healer the easier this is to understand and execute.
A healer that still lacks practice will frequently chose to drop dps even if they could have fulfilled their primary role without it. There is nothing confusing about stating the obvious, nobody here every argued for refusing to heal at all costs because "muh Glare" or said that it's preferable to use Glare and let a dps die.
You and Silverbane simply ignore something very fundamental: healers heal and dps at the same time - their toolkits were designed for it. Which is why their active dps contribution is far from "miniscule". Fulfilling their primary role while dpsing is factored in with the abundant oGCD/ dps neutral heals they have.

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I'm not ignoring this. How is it I can highlight the fact that Healers need to contribute DPS same as healing and you reach this conclusion is beyond me.
I've spoken in normal English and prefaced that is not what I meant. IN THAT VERY POST!

It is quite and supremely obvious you continue to dps while dishing out your healing. Like where's the cognitive dissonance here.

It's like you people take a sliver of what I say and just ignore the rest of it. WHETHER you want to consider it minuscule or not I could care less this is semantics!

The whole thread is centered around "Removing Healers" right? I'm trying to explain what we contribute.

Do you HONESTLY Think that any self respecting healer is going to either completely dedicate themselves to either just completely DPSing or completely Healing??? WHERE AND WHEN Did I give you that idea.

It's preposterous. I suggested no such thing. Like it literally takes five minutes or less to read what I wrote. Why would you spin it in your head such a ridiculous notion?

I've seriously had it with this level of misrepresentation.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

I'm not ignoring this. How is it I can highlight the fact that Healers need to contribute DPS same as healing and you reach this conclusion is beyond me.
I've spoken in normal English and prefaced that is not what I meant. IN THAT VERY POST!

It is quite and supremely obvious you continue to dps while dishing out your healing. Like where's the cognitive dissonance here.

It's like you people take a sliver of what I say and just ignore the rest of it. WHETHER you want to consider it minuscule or not I could care less this is semantics!

The whole thread is centered around "Removing Healers" right? I'm trying to explain what we contribute.

Do you HONESTLY Think that any self respecting healer is going to either completely dedicate themselves to either just completely DPSing or completely Healing??? WHERE AND WHEN Did I give you that idea.

It's preposterous. I suggested no such thing. Like it literally takes five minutes or less to read what I wrote. Why would you spin it in your head such a ridiculous notion?

I've seriously had it with this level of misrepresentation.

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here is just one preposterous statement that you made

People I believe who are DPS role orientated who play Healer on occasion I believe are more concerned about DPS parsing and rotations, but this play style doesn't suit a healer. The reason we have 100% access to all of our buttons is precisely how to use them tactically and most efficiently. Our contribution to DPS is minuscule for this purpose. The idea is to act selflessly that's the mindset of every person who picks up healing as a main job role. Is to help. So if the fight does less outgoing damage we can push these scenarios to greater limits.

first of all, you have no way at all of knowing whether someone who mains a dps and who plays a healer as an alt is more concerned about their dps than healing. you just made a judgement there.

you made another judgement on how our skills being used since that requires a certain degree of decision making- ok, fine- that like means because sometimes more healing may be required, otherwise dps is fine. saying that our dps is 'miniscule'? uh, no. thanks, I don't want to have to whale away for a solid 15 minutes to kill a single mob for a quest, for example. more like 'lower than a DPS- closer to a tank".

but then we get to the real winner here, the idea that healers are acting selflessly--- we are not ministering angels, each job should be there to work as a team, and think of the other members of the group- and each job should be fun in its own way.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

first of all, you have no way at all of knowing whether someone who mains a dps and who plays a healer as an alt is more concerned about their dps than healing. you just made a judgement there.

you made another judgement on how our skills being used since that requires a certain degree of decision making- ok, fine- that like means because sometimes more healing may be required, otherwise dps is fine. saying that our dps is 'miniscule'? uh, no. thanks, I don't want to have to whale away for a solid 15 minutes to kill a single mob for a quest, for example. more like 'lower than a DPS- closer to a tank".

but then we get to the real winner here, the idea that healers are acting selflessly--- we are not ministering angels, each job should be there to work as a team, and think of the other members of the group- and each job should be fun in its own way.

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You're not even the same person but very well...
Apologies are in order. I'm sorry for using the word 'minuscule' it was a poor choice of words. I'd also like to apologize for my baseless presumptions about DPS players.

Had I known it was something people would latch onto to become the bane of my existence I'd have considered a different choice of words. For sake of moving the conversation forward in this endeavor, I'll be sure to use your approved vernacular of 'Healers do less damage than DPS, however nonetheless their DPS contributions are still meaningful and are more in line with DPS margins with Tanks' seems to take longer to say it that way but I will endeavor to accommodate the masses sensitivities in the future.

Seeing how you've made plain you are a supporter of all members of the team offering their own equal contributions and are averse to harsh and baseless judgments, perhaps you can be of use in championing my cause.

This thread is called 'Just Remove Healers' it is saying that my role as in the one I play... being a Healer more precisely, that there are those in the support/argument/suggestion that my Role (Healer), my personal contribution to the Team is worth less than that of Tanks and DPS (one could even say 'minuscule') and by transitive properties that my favorite role (healer)... Should face the ultimate judgment and be 'Removed' from the game.

Now I know you may not be keen on helping me... but you've just made it very clear. No, Very plain to see that, you would surely be against such notions. Could you please draft something up in that regard? Since you felt compelled to intervene in my case, this should be short work for you... please I'm begging you! For all the healers here and at home, please?

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Originally Posted by Nadda

This thread is called 'Just Remove Healers' it is saying that my role as in the one I play... being a Healer more precisely, that there are those in the support/argument/suggestion that my Role (Healer), my personal contribution to the Team is worth less than that of Tanks and DPS (one could even say 'minuscule') and by transitive properties that my favorite role (healer)... Should face the ultimate judgment and be 'Removed' from the game.

Now I know you may not be keen on helping me... but you've just made it very clear. No, Very plain to see that, you would surely be against such notions. Could you please draft something up in that regard? Since you felt compelled to intervene in my case, this should be short work for you... please I'm begging you! For all the healers here and at home, please?

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The point of this post is less that the OP wants healers to be removed and more that if the devs are not going to put effort into the job and making it fun, meaningful and actually wanted/needed in content like they say healers should be (EX, Savage, Ultimate at least) remove it from the game.

And yeah I share that sentiment.

All classes in this game deserve the same treatment of BLM/RDM where they have core identities that work, are fun to play for people who like those playstyles and and a sound foundation that is built upon over the course of several expansions.

They have not done this at all with the healer role.

People who liked SCH/AST in SB (much like people who like SMN previous to EW) had their entire job overhauled in ways they did not ask for nor wanted and were pretty much told to get used to it, you aren't getting it back completely alienating the previous MAINS of those jobs.

It took them until 5.3 to address AST's mana problems. It took them until 6.1 to make Affalus Misery a dps neutral ability.

It looks completely poor on the dev's part that issues healers have are not addressed as quickly, are swept under the rug, or not even understood.

Bottom line is, no we in fact do not want healers to be removed from the game. We love the role, its why we chose it.

However, what we want is for the devs to treat the role as if it actually MEANS something to them and not something to push new players through content. And if they aren't going to do that, then what the hells is the point in having it as a role in the game if it isn't going to be fun for the very people THEY DECIDED TO ABANDON IN THE FIRST PLACE.

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All Healer jobs use an entirely different role expression to Tanking or DPS, making them feel disjointed.
Healing, however, is largely expressed through GCD healing (that is never actually used in higher levels of play), and all of them have a near-identical, static GCD rotation - Press Dia/Bio/E. Dosis/Combust, then press Glare/Broil/Dosis/Malefic 11-12 times, repeat ad mortem.

Healing becomes less complex the better you are at it.
Compared to learning Tank or DPS jobs, where the experience starts simple and you gradually learn to utilize more of your kit in interesting ways, the peak of complexity for healing jobs is at level 4. As you learn to use your kit, the base experience actually becomes less complex and less interesting

Healers are unnecessary.
Encounter design in this game is very rigid with almost no unpredictable damage spikes.

Original point:
The current state of healers is outright unplayable. I cannot convince anyone I know to play them. They are so incredibly mind-numbingly painful to play that finding someone who both has sufficient experience with the role to be capable of clearing the content, and does not outright refuse to play the role, is impossible.
Just remove healers and give Tanks/DPS enough defensive tools to manage without in Extreme and harder content. Stop making us suffer.

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These were the core tenants of the argument.

You have added.

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making it fun, meaningful and actually wanted/needed in content like they say healers should be (EX, Savage, Ultimate at least) remove it from the game.

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Let's just say this is attached to the first point All Healer jobs use an entirely different role expression to Tanking or DPS, making them feel disjointed.

And let's examine what you actually mean by this first. What do you want healers to look like exactly?
In other words, what would make them fun, meaningful, and actually wanted/needed? I need to know what this 'fun' is. When was it fun, What made it fun, Why it is fun, and How can we constructively make a better system.

Now I've played majority White mage since HW so I don't really know much about the other side of things and how Scholar and Astrologian operated before. I know for the most part since I've been playing at least my kit has always remained the same with a few adages to it... but with every expansion, it seems that it plays slightly different each time.

There are of course things I miss. Stormblood was probably my favorite incarnation for White mage. I liked Aero 3, Because stacking dots is satisfying, but so is applying multiple dots at once, I liked how engaging it was to use my lilies, I liked that holding on to them longer would mean I could use them to increase healing potency and reduce cooldown timers. (to be continued)

(continued) My main issue with this thread is players are disgruntled, but being disgruntled isn't conducive to the cause. It is a reductive argument to say Healers should be removed because something changed instead of asking for the changes you want in the first place. More like defeatist even, you'd be cutting your nose off despite your face. It gives up without any expression as to what people wanted and you can't garner support from Healers at large if you're saying they are worthless and should be removed. Why not conjure up reasons they should stay instead?

The game as it stands currently does need healers regardless of what anyone says. It could always be in a better place. We need to accept the two realities. Chiefly Healers aren't going anywhere. Second, what can we do constructively to enact the change we want.

(Edit) Also, keep in mind as the game advances and there are more jobs added we cannot avoid the level of parity that will come from their addition. So eventually jobs as we've already seen will have to borrow similar elements. This is the cost of balance. So a good place to look towards getting more unique changes may actually be petitioning for no job additions. This way the Dev team can give the focus to the jobs that already exist. This notion already would benefit your cause.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

<points>

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While part of this is just us agreeing to disagree (I do not, in fact, find 1-2-3 static rotation like MCH to be more engaging than 1-1-1 on WHM, personally; it's the other stuff that MCH has besides it that makes it at all engaging); why are you talking about "world 1st scenario"?

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About GCD healing: I was replying to YOU SAYING that we should have more GCD healing, my dude! I was saying I AGREE WITH YOU, and now, by disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing...with yourself? o.O

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When did this conversation become about world firsters, who are probably something like 0.001% of the playerbase? (Probably a bit more than that, but still SMALL)

The bulk of the game isn't made up of that. Most people that run Savages or even Ultimates aren't racing for world first. World first people are going to hyper-optimize anyway and likely can play any Job they want and get the results they want with it, swap Jobs based on fight needs within tiers, are probably all omni-90s and well geared at that, and are going to play something based on the needs of the group, not aesthetics, fun factor, or rotational issues. So that shouldn't be relevant to this discussion. And it...really isn't. When I say the words "more often", using an example of 0.001% of the playerbase doesn't really contest "more often".

And the funny thing is, you did this just after saying a 0.5-1.0% change won't be a problem when THESE ARE THE FEW PEOPLE in the game to whom that change would potentially dictate which Job they drop or bring.

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I do agree utility is important in prog. But we weren't talking specifically about prog, either. Note that you have to use special/limited cases in each of your arguments while I'm talking about healing on the whole.

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SGE is less clunky than SCH (but, other than AST, what isn't?), but SCH has some benefits over SCH that can make healing easier on it. It really depends on the needs of the specific encounter.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

(continued) My main issue with this thread is players are disgruntled, but being disgruntled isn't conducive to the cause. It is a reductive argument to say Healers should be removed because something changed instead of asking for the changes you want in the first place.

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The healer forum is full of topics asking for changes, trying to give solutions and ideas to improve the current state of healers. But these topics were almost never acknowledged and questions about it were mainly ignored by Yoshi-P in the LLs (I already posted some of his quotes).

So what's left now is the fatigue and frustration that gave rise to these kinds of posts.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

While part of this is just us agreeing to disagree (I do not, in fact, find 1-2-3 static rotation like MCH to be more engaging than 1-1-1 on WHM, personally; it's the other stuff that MCH has besides it that makes it at all engaging); why are you talking about "world 1st scenario"?

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Because in the original message I replied to you brought that up?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

For all the moaning about ShB and EW RDM, and EW SMN, being "too easy", why is it that so many Ultimate clears have SMNs and/or RDMs in them? Why so many world firsts? Why so many Savage statics?

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About GCD healing: I was replying to YOU SAYING that we should have more GCD healing, my dude! I was saying I AGREE WITH YOU, and now, by disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing...with yourself? o.O

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No? I'm saying that a focus on a more GCD healing present rotation is not a good aproach, quoting myself "...healing by deffinition has a cap of usefulness and as such a GCD healing rotation only leads to a very unpleasant downtime gameplay and punishing players that know their role"

If the game's damage is as scripted as it is a GCD healing rotation is not good because its not always useful and doesn't tackle the problem of downtime activities being extremely boring and repetitive, healers should be fun at all times not only when the party takes damage

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And the funny thing is, you did this just after saying a 0.5-1.0% change won't be a problem when THESE ARE THE FEW PEOPLE in the game to whom that change would potentially dictate which Job they drop or bring.

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My point with all of that is precisely that all the discussion of balance with the whole 7dots vs 1 nuke 1 dot you said is meaningless, people who want to optimize to the point of 0.5-1% of healer damage is breaking the run wont care if they have to juggle 7 dots to do it and for the vast majority of playerbase fun gameplay is way more important and that is what the game is lacking, quoting myself again "first make all the jobs more diverse and fun and then balance them". A fun unbalanced job can be balanced much easier than a balanced boring job become fun.

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SGE is less clunky than SCH (but, other than AST, what isn't?), but SCH has some benefits over SCH that can make healing easier on it. It really depends on the needs of the specific encounter.

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And Sage has too, also depends on the encounter. What it doesn't change on the encounter is that SCH has to pay a tax for using a part of its kit and in order to maximize their contribution has to plan their resources more than a Sage, which is why is more complex because, while Sage can have as a general tip something as simple as "Use kerachole on cooldown" Sch has to think if Soil is really worth it, its not much but its there.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

You're not even the same person but very well..
Apologies are in order. I'm sorry for using the word 'minuscule' it was a poor choice of words. I'd also like to apologize for my baseless presumptions about DPS players.

Had I known it was something people would latch onto to become the bane of my existence I'd have considered a different choice of words. For sake of moving the conversation forward in this endeavor, I'll be sure to use your approved vernacular of 'Healers do less damage than DPS, however nonetheless their DPS contributions are still meaningful and are more in line with DPS margins with Tanks' seems to take longer to say it that way but I will endeavor to accommodate the masses sensitivities in the future.

Seeing how you've made plain you are a supporter of all members of the team offering their own equal contributions and are averse to harsh and baseless judgments, perhaps you can be of use in championing my cause.

This thread is called 'Just Remove Healers' it is saying that my role as in the one I play... being a Healer more precisely, that there are those in the support/argument/suggestion that my Role (Healer), my personal contribution to the Team is worth less than that of Tanks and DPS (one could even say 'minuscule') and by transitive properties that my favorite role (healer)... Should face the ultimate judgment and be 'Removed' from the game.

Now I know you may not be keen on helping me... but you've just made it very clear. No, Very plain to see that, you would surely be against such notions. Could you please draft something up in that regard? Since you felt compelled to intervene in my case, this should be short work for you... please I'm begging you! For all the healers here and at home, please?

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you seem to be quite selective in your awareness that this is a community forum, so that means that anything that you post here, or for that matter any of us- is considered fair game for comments. if that feedback becomes the 'bane of your existence' (insert dramatic sigh for effect0 maybe it's time to, as the saying goes - touch some grass?

my reply had nothing whatsoever to do with you, my post was aimed towards your argument, i do hope that you see the distinction. I did not 'intervene', I responded 9again, you seem very confused, it's a community forum0 and i have no idea why i should feel obliged in any way to 'help' you. Why? i provide feedback in other threads regarding healers, as well, go read them, just like anyone else.