Its ffxiv combat really so slow and boring?

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

May I ask why you have thus far not responded to my concerns? I'm honestly curious as to your thoughts. To summarize so you don't have to read through previous posts:

(1) I do not think any such feature can be truly considered optional, as it will offer more stable performance for the majority of players (I know I'd feel quite self-conscious for mis-clicking a combo if the option were available to never miss);
(2) I think such a system, if active, would lessen my engagement with my job, my sense of control of my character, and my immersion in combat.

These twin concerns effectively mean that your optional "QoL" change would harm my in-game experience every time I participated in group combat. Presumably this isn't the outcome you're expecting or seeking, so I'm curious as to your reasoning for why this wouldn't happen.

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Didn't respond earlier because I had reached posting limit, and then I was mostly just trying not to re-engage the topic. As mentioned earlier, it's a derail. Just wanted to explain to Miste that they had misunderstood what I meant back there, then noticed they had edited their post to add something else. But I'll answer the best I can.

I don't think I can tell you that it wouldn't happen because it sounds like a personal problem. If you don't want to do something, you just don't do it. That's about self-control. If you don't have the self-control to pick something because it's more fun than the alternative, then you'd likely suffer due to it. I understand the concern, though; I'm not trying to dismiss it. I think it's actually a valid concern.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I don't think I can tell you that it wouldn't happen because it sounds like a personal problem. If you don't want to do something, you just don't do it. That's about self-control. If you don't have the self-control to pick something because it's more fun than the alternative, then you'd likely suffer due to it. I understand the concern, though; I'm not trying to dismiss it. I think it's actually a valid concern.

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A couple of things.

Firstly, I don't think it's a personal problem. Let's take the idea to its logical extreme, and say that SE went so far as to give us the ability to completely automate actions via programmatic macros, and also released scripts for every job to achieve optimal DPS. Alongside this effort, they release a statement informing players that the system is completely optional, and that we don't have to use it if we don't want to. But... the thing is, that's sort of hogwash. When you join a four-person dungeon and the other three people are giving you sideways glances because you're sucking it up compared to them, and that it's something you could fix with the press of a button? Well, the choice is no longer neutral at that point. Your proposal is clearly not as black and white, but I don't think you've effectively made the case that this system wouldn't significantly improve player performance - and without that assurance, it's not something that can be made truly optional, in my estimation.

In other words, the whole self-control argument works fine for single-player games, but notsomuch for multiplayer titles - at least not when one is grouped in cooperative teams.

Secondly, I think that this actually does relate somewhat to the OP. We've meandered about a good bit in the thread, and this idea did indeed turn into a derail, but it's brought to light the fact that there are a lot of different opinions on the combat system, and SE has to find a middle ground that's consistent for all players (your idea is a fun hypothetical, but we both know it'd never be optional). I think that suggests that perhaps the combat is about right. I personally maintain that it's quite boring (no opinion either way on the speed), but it's been interesting to read opposing views, and shift my thinking accordingly.

Edit / Aside: I'd actually be a lot more interested in your idea if it did do more to gimp the full effectiveness of various combos (for example, by not allowing oGCD weaving). I think there's an argument to be made for a 'training wheels' sort of mode that allows anyone to hit a certain level of performance in a relatively mindless fashion, but that also restricts them from ever achieving higher levels of performance.

This could be useful even for good players who, for instance, are learning a new fight, and wanting to focus more on mechanic dodging than on combo maintenance. Or, for people who are returning after a long break, and needing some time to absorb things again before tackling combos at level cap. It would also be useful for people who are just solo'ing trash monsters and wanting to watch Netflix more easily.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I don't think this is a fair thing to say.

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I mean, maybe? But that's seriously the only answer to their problem. If you have issues doing basic controller inputs in a timely manner, and it's not because of a physical disability, then the only solutions are to practice more or to use a different control scheme. The latter of which would also probably involve some level of practice.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Just curious, why did you show less than 32 job actions when they said "anything more than 32 is a pain to use"?

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They said only the base 16 are viable for combos. DRG is my main, so those are the first pictures available in my folder and, as shown, have combo actions on the expanded crossbar.

I can show the setup I have for any of the 15 jobs, though I don't remember how many I bothered reconfiguring after obtaining their lv70 action. I do know that a couple have empty spaces as-is and none of them have issues fitting onto two tabs barring seldom/never used buttons though. Like moving the LB button on tanks and healers into Set3 (L2+Triangle), whereas on every DPS job it's in the same spot shown in the DRG picture.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Especially since the slower combat is actually something that many people LIKE, and not because of PING. If my PING was 30-50, I'd enjoy it EVEN MORE. That's why I actually like turn-based games which are even "slower".

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There are also a lot of people who think the combat could be faster too.

Regarding the other bits, we'll agree to disagree. It's clear I'm not reaching you, and I simply don't agree that the pros outweigh the cons of a built in buffer to make the game more playable for fringe playerbases.

Appreciate the discussion though.

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

Jobs should interact with each other more for some sort of bonus. As it stands right now, "teamwork" is just being individually good at the job you are doing whilst in a group. However, none of our jobs are linked by any sort of system in combat that could facilitate teamwork.

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This isn't true at the highest levels where the META has a clear advantage in group synergy (due to flat throughput party buffs).

I would actual relish the game be more based on individual performance rather than what job I got lucky to be grouped with.

There definitely needs to be synergy, but I'd feel much safer if it was based on utility and not throughput.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

Well, ordinary heroic raidfinder dungeons in Wow, you can literally roll your face on the keyboard, and not do any of the few mechanics, and still clear the dungeon.

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But how is that any different from FF14? You can literally join nearly any end game dungeon and flounder your way through it successfully by simply mashing 1 skill over and over. Most FF14 dungeons don't even need a healer they're so trivial.

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Those bosses through the portals in Legion, that give you a chance for legendary gear? Some ordinary Hunt bosses have more mechanics involved.

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Any single enemy or piece of content could drop legendaries in Legion. Hunt bosses are identical in complexity/depth compared to world bosses. They're both shallow and awful IMO.

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Mythic keystones, yes you had to do the mechanics in them, but they are still not nearly as punishing. Back in the day the Typhon trial was harder, simply due to people not doing the mechanics of the fight.

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What? Mythic+ is incredibly punishing if you're doing ilvl appropriate keys. Typhon was easy. Try doing high level keys with people who ignore mechanics. It doesn't end well.

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And back when I was raiding in MoP, it felt like there was honestly a less mechanics you had to do, and a lot less one-shots.

And the large raid finder raids? Extremely hard to wipe the whole party from not doing mechs, vs FFXIV.

But hey, that's just my opinion on how they feel mechanic-wise.

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It's 100% cool that you feel that way and have that opinion, but you do need to accept that it is mired in some bias and misinformation, because FF14 suffers from the same exact issues, to an even larger degree.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Now, 120 Ret Paladin:

1). Judgment.
2). Blade of Justice.
3). Templar's Verdict.
4). Crusader Strike.
5). Crusader Strike.
6). Hopefully you either got a Crusader Strike proc that lets you TV at 2HoPo, or you got Art of War which reset your Blade of Justice

And..... that's it.

Build 3 HoPo, use TV or Divine Storm.

Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. That's literally all you do.

Don't believe me?

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As a career Ret with numerous top logs in my more serious days, you're being incredibly diminutive here.

There's a lot of nuance hidden in there that you're not accounting for. Managing HoPo without overcapping or letting CS sit at 2 charges, rolling FV buff, etc.

I'm not saying it's some deep hard to play class, because it isn't, but there is more depth to it than you're accounting for, especially considering it's paired with more robust encounter design.

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

Shifting combos to work via multiple presses of a single button would be a mistake. The fundamental issue I have with the idea is that it would reduce my sense of control over my character. There should be nothing 'artificially predicted' about my actions, which condensing combos to a 111 sort of format (as opposed to a 123).

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Do you believe that there is a difference between pushing 1-1-1 or 1-2-3 mechanically?

While I do agree that 1-1-1 would be more boring, that's a symptom of the shallow design of the combo system, not the chosen hotkey method.

If it were up to me, I'd honestly revamp the combo system entirely to be more engaging/complex, or I'd simplify it entirely (a la PVP) and bump up the oGCD system in its stead. one or the other, as I'm not confident the playerbase could handle both simultaneously.

But this idea that 1-2-3 is different than 1-1-1 is pretty silly honestly.

Agree to disagree.

At 15 with basicly 3 action needed yes it is slow..
At 70 with all the OGC and remember we will have 5 extra 4.4...

I would say for people that want a faster paced game.... there are other games out there. I like the current pace.
I played FFXI and WOW. So I've had slower and faster, and well FFXIV seem a nice pace between running around like a fool to avoid AOE and keeping uptime on DPS... there is enough to do.

I would sooner have more use of the rarely used abilities vs faster combo Also changing the GC would mean all mobs would need to be reworked which isn't happening anytime soon.. So the point of this discussion is lost on me.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

But this idea that 1-2-3 is different than 1-1-1 is pretty silly honestly.

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I have to disagree; it’s different on a psychological level. I enjoy having to move my thumbs all over my controller; it keeps me engaged in combat even if it’s something like a dungeon where things are extremely simple. Pressing 1-1-1-1 until my thumb falls off is not engaging.

When I’m caught in a situation where I’m spamming the same button over and over again—we’ll use Pagos on a healer as an example: Aero III > Aero II > Stone IV > Stone IV > Stone IV > ad nauseam—I start to check out mentally. And I stop paying attention to the combat at hand, especially if it’s something mind-numbing that already required minimal thought. The PvP combo system in PvE would have the same effect on me, as well as take away the ability I currently have on my main (BRD) to manipulate my rotation in situations where fights call for it.

The only way I would take this system (begrudgingly at that) would be if they allowed for customization in the combos (so I could have ones or create ones for instances where I am manipulating songs from the normal Minuet > Mage’s > Army’s), and if they gave me enough oGCDs to weave. However, considering so many were removed with SB (along with DoTs to upkeep) in order to simply the jobs, I doubt that this would be the case.

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

Edit / Aside: I'd actually be a lot more interested in your idea if it did do more to gimp the full effectiveness of various combos (for example, by not allowing oGCD weaving). I think there's an argument to be made for a 'training wheels' sort of mode that allows anyone to hit a certain level of performance in a relatively mindless fashion, but that also restricts them from ever achieving higher levels of performance.

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We already have this. They're called macros.

For the rest of your post, I think you're overestimating any performance increase from changing 1-2-3 to 1-1-1. You still have to press the buttons, and you still have to press oGCDs in between them. You can still make mistakes by pressing the wrong combo button when starting a new combo; I even do this myself once in a while in PvP.

Anyway, the whole thing isn't a huge deal to me as long as I stick to certain jobs. I simply don't play the jobs I find unfun to play because they have too many redundant abilities/buttons. I don't have too much trouble sticking to only a few jobs, or even just one if I had to.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I have to disagree; it’s different on a psychological level. I enjoy having to move my thumbs all over my controller; it keeps me engaged in combat even if it’s something like a dungeon where things are extremely simple. Pressing 1-1-1-1 until my thumb falls off is not engaging.

When I’m caught in a situation where I’m spamming the same button over and over again—we’ll use Pagos on a healer as an example: Aero III > Aero II > Stone IV > Stone IV > Stone IV > ad nauseam—I start to check out mentally. And I stop paying attention to the combat at hand, especially if it’s something mind-numbing that already required minimal thought. The PvP combo system in PvE would have the same effect on me, as well as take away the ability I currently have on my main (BRD) to manipulate my rotation in situations where fights call for it.

The only way I would take this system (begrudgingly at that) would be if they allowed for customization in the combos (so I could have ones or create ones for instances where I am manipulating songs from the normal Minuet > Mage’s > Army’s), and if they gave me enough oGCDs to weave. However, considering so many were removed with SB (along with DoTs to upkeep) in order to simply the jobs, I doubt that this would be the case.

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Did you read the 2 above sentences from the one you quoted? I covered that it would be more boring, but that it was a symptom of the shallow combo system rather than the hotkey method. I even offered 2 different suggestions for changes.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Did you read the 2 above sentences from the one you quoted? I covered that it would be more boring, but that it was a symptom of the shallow combo system rather than the hotkey method. I even offered 2 different suggestions for changes.

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Yes, I did. I’m arguing about how it is different on a psychological level: for me, more movement for my fingers means more engagement in the combat; I feel more engaged. Less movement (akin to hitting 1-1-1 which is physically different from 1-2-3 if we want to get super technical/pendantic) means less engagement; I don’t feel engaged. You’re arguing that claiming there’s a difference “is silly”; I’m arguing that I disagree, because there is a difference: physically (on the technical level) and psychologically.

If you say that the combo system is boring, why advocate for a system that is going to further dumb it down? Not saying that you specifically are, but for the sake of discussion: why advocate for something even more monotonous that what is already present, if you think the combat system is currently boring and/or unengaging, and that this new system could potentially make that glaringly obvious.

I also explained the only way in which I would accept such a system—you would have noticed that one is in line with your additional oGCD suggestion.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Bard does NOT have a combo. We're not talking about player-decided combos. We're talking about the actual combos that have:
"Combo: X Potency" or "Combo: Add X effect."

Bard...does...not...have...a...combo.

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I’m aware. No need to enunciate each word. Calm down, please.

The premise is that, more than likely, the developers would just copy the systems over from PvP into PvE rather than design from the ground up, especially if there were new jobs that they had to consider as well. Considering this, it is very much possible that they would force the current PvP combos onto a job that has no combo, or lump all of BRD’s songs into one button for this whole “save button space” that you are advocating for. That would take away my ability to freely manipulate songs, which is something that you do.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

So use a different argument. One that is not entirely subjective. Or if your only argument is either subjective or outright wrong (because it's not related to what was suggested)...then I guess, agree to disagree?!

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I didn’t know I needed your approval for which arguments I can and cannot use. Why don’t you just agree to disagree with me—as you are advocating—instead of getting all heated? It’s quite clear we don’t see eye to eye, and continuing this back-and-forth is nothing more than a waste of daily post counts reiterating the same thing over and over again, and with no new development in a conversation that is already a tangent. It’s why I didn’t respond to your previous posts to me (inb4 I’m accused of “ignoring” you again).

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Personally I react the exact same way to 1-2-3 or any other repetitive combination. Using keyboard for the past twenty years without looking at it, I don't even notice a difference between which finger I use for what button, so three consecutive buttons are one and the same to me.

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You say not to use subjective arguments... but here you are using one yourself.

Player experience in the game is a subjective measure. Why gamble at making it boring for players just to save hotbars space on very few jobs (and only a couple buttons at that)? It’s generally a good idea to not fix something that isn’t broken, because it usually just leads to problems later on—one being “we didn’t want this change anyways, so why is it even here”.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The PvP combo system in PvE would have the same effect on me, as well as take away the ability I currently have on my main (BRD) to manipulate my rotation in situations where fights call for it.

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Bard does NOT have a combo. We're not talking about player-decided combos. We're talking about the actual combos that have:
"Combo: X Potency" or "Combo: Add X effect."

Bard...does...not...have...a...combo. You are disagreeing with something that is literally only in your head. No one is saying to bring PvP skills into PvE. We're talking entirely about PvE. And in PvE bard would be completely unaffected.

You having issues with pushing only one button instead of three, even if for the same effect?! Well, that's your opinion. It's nothing to agree or disagree with. Personally I react the exact same way to 1-2-3 or any other repetitive combination. Using keyboard for the past twenty years without looking at it, I don't even notice a difference between which finger I use for what button, so three consecutive buttons are one and the same to me.
So use a different argument. One that is not entirely subjective. Or if your only argument is either subjective or outright wrong (because it's not related to what was suggested)...then I guess, agree to disagree?!

Funnily enough, one of the things that always brings me back to this game is the combat and the animations and while there are issues with it, I never get bored playing any of the jobs.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Bard...does...not...have...a...combo. You are disagreeing with something that is literally only in your head. No one is saying to bring PvP skills into PvE. We're talking entirely about PvE. And in PvE bard would be completely unaffected.

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Yes, because SE is going to implement a system less than half the jobs will benefit from when they already a system that does precisely the same thing. If they do implement skill consolidation, it will be carried over from PvP, and it's going to impact every job and be added to every job. You need only look at job gauges to realize that. Case in point, WHM's gauge is utterly useless. They still made one. Therefore, concerns regarding Bard songs is perfectly justified because it will be apart of the whole consolidation thing if they go down that route.

Being willfully obtuse about it won't change that.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Yes, because SE is going to implement a system less than half the jobs will benefit from when they already a system that does precisely the same thing. If they do implement skill consolidation, it will be carried over from PvP, and it's going to impact every job and be added to every job. You need only look at job gauges to realize that. Case in point, WHM's gauge is utterly useless. They still made one. Therefore, concerns regarding Bard songs is perfectly justified because it will be apart of the whole consolidation thing if they go down that route.

Being willfully obtuse about it won't change that.

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I don't see them doing that. PvP abilities are extremely different from PvE abilities. I know that you're aware of that, so I'm not sure why you think they would even do it. PvP is reduced down to less than 10 abilities for every job. Bard doesn't even have 3 songs in PvP. BLM has more mobility in PvP.

None of the jobs play anything like they do in PvE in PvP. They were purposely completely redesigned. Consolidating combos is nothing close to that.

Would people really miss the three main bard songs as they are now though? They make the class tremendously reliant on RNG, and having three different effects only matters due to troubador, all three are just dps increases otherwise. You can easily spend a third of the timer with no real dps increase from a song at all. I feel like they could just revert mages ballad to an always on effect, get make refulgent arrow similar to pitch perfect, make the songs their troubador effects, and little would be lost. IDK if bard is a good example because the class in my opinion is needlessly complex.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I don't see them doing that. PvP abilities are extremely different from PvE abilities. I know that you're aware of that, so I'm not sure why you think they would even do it. PvP is reduced down to less than 10 abilities for every job. Bard doesn't even have 3 songs in PvP. BLM has more mobility in PvP.

None of the jobs play anything like they do in PvE in PvP. They were purposely completely redesigned. Consolidating combos is nothing close to that.

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We aren't talking about the skills though, just the system itself. The whole purpose behind skill consolidation would be allowing more hotbar space. They aren't just going to consolidate combos, especially seeing most of those jobs don't even need it. Monk, Dragoon, Samurai, Dark Knight and Warrior all have plenty of space already. What you're purposing would literally only benefit Ninja and Paladin, albeit barely. It's simply a waste of time and resources at that point.

Regardless, like I said, SE doesn't do things for a portion of the jobs. They go all in. Which means this hypothetical system will impact every job in order to space hotbar space since that would be the whole point. It'd be kinda silly Dragoon suddenly has six extra spots but Summoner doesn't.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

BLM has more mobility in PvP.

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No, it doesn't. It gives you the illusion that it does because you don't have bosses or adds vomiting orange circles all over leylines or firing things at you from a distance like Guardian. Again, you're not expected or in a situation where you need to be standing still and that your damage will suffer if you don't in PvP. There is nothing stressful about PvP that warrants you to use your full toolkit unlike PvE.

If they decide to try and consolidate combos, they will more than likely just take notes from the PvP system first, and you're just willfully being hopeful and optimistic that they won't when we all know better than that by now.

There is no reason whatsoever to consolidate buttons on BLM. There is no button bloat on that job. Literally, everything I ever need is RIGHT THERE ON MY FIRST BAR.

With minor abilities on the second and I still have plenty of room.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Not really that accessible, anything above 32 is a pain to use. the double tap extended bar is really easy to mess up (double tap l2 or r2) and using r+a face button is easier than r alone to switch between sets.

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We'll have to agree to disagree on much of this. Honestly, it's very simple for me to be able to access the 48 buttons I choose to access, and needing only to tap R1 to get to my second bar rather than "R1+Up" is less processing on my end. I have my controller set up to very specifically only access Set 1 and Set 5 with the R1 button; Set 1 being my single target bar and Set 5 being my AoE bar. An entire bar dedicated to AoE, you ask? A lot of it is redundant skills on my Set 5 to minimize risk of fatfingering and ending up unable to attack, but it also puts my AoE skills in an easily accessed place where they're not in anything else's way.
Sprint is tagged to L3. Focus Target is tagged to R3. Personally I don't use the WXHB because I don't need it with all the button space I already have.

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But the base 16 is the only viable stuff for combos and very often used OGCDS, with the second 16 for less common stuff. Anything longer feels like just long enough of a delay to mess up moves. Like I used to use r+O to switch to DPS spells as a whm in HW, then r+ triangle to go back to heals, but it was a big pain.

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This is why I say that tapping R1 is better. Less processing means less time it takes to get to the bar I want to access the abilities I want. It comes down to practice, like Darrcy said, because a lot of people intentionally map their controller buttons to use as few vital abilities on the dpad as possible, because in order to push a button on the d-pad, one has to take their finger off of the left analog stick, and movement is more important than camera control in a lot of cases.

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Like a lot of moves the second or less it takes to switch matters. I can't use cover effectively as pld because there's a delay between selecting target, second 16, activating. Something like Dragon eye is ok because it's not context sensitive as much, i dont need to react with it.

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Well, considering you use Cover proactively instead of reactively, some delay is okay. And there's always going to be delay no matter what you do. What you're suggesting--having Cover on say, Set 5 while your main abilities are on Set 1--is not what I would suggest. My suggestion would be to map it to L2+R2 somewhere abouts, because it takes roughly the same reaction time* to do that as it does to hit them with it from Set 1.

*with practice, of course.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

We aren't talking about the skills though, just the system itself. The whole purpose behind skill consolidation would be allowing more hotbar space. They aren't just going to consolidate combos, especially seeing most of those jobs don't even need it. Monk, Dragoon, Samurai, Dark Knight and Warrior all have plenty of space already. What you're purposing would literally only benefit Ninja and Paladin, albeit barely. It's simply a waste of time and resources at that point.

Regardless, like I said, SE doesn't do things for a portion of the jobs. They go all in. Which means this hypothetical system will impact every job in order to space hotbar space since that would be the whole point. It'd be kinda silly Dragoon suddenly has six extra spots but Summoner doesn't.

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But they can't directly move them from PvP to PvE. They would have to be redesigned. Like I said, BRD doesn't even have 3 songs. SAM combos are 2 hits, not 3. They can't just bring the PvP combos over.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

No, it doesn't. It gives you the illusion that it does because you don't have bosses or adds vomiting orange circles all over leylines or firing things at you from a distance like Guardian. Again, you're not expected or in a situation where you need to be standing still and that your damage will suffer if you don't in PvP. There is nothing stressful about PvP that warrants you to use your full toolkit unlike PvE.

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Don't play PvP, do you? BLM was given instant casts that it didn't have before, specifically for PvP. All jobs were redesigned specifically for the purpose of playing better in PvP.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Don't play PvP, do you? BLM was given instant casts that it didn't have before, specifically for PvP. All jobs were all redesigned specifically for the purpose of playing better in PvP.

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I did and I hate the way they implemented it for spells because it's convoluted as all sin. We also have instant casts in PvE! It's called Triplecast and Swiftcast! And we've had Swiftcast since ARR and before the PvP overhaul! :D

Stop comparing stuff to PvP.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

I did and I hate the way they implemented it for spells because it's convoluted as all sin. We also have instant casts in PvE! It's called Triplecast and Swiftcast! And we've had Swiftcast since ARR and before the PvP overhaul! :D

Stop comparing stuff to PvP.

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Don't compare stuff to PvP when I'm quoting and replying to someone who is talking about PvP? That's silly.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Don't compare stuff to PvP when I'm quoting and replying to someone who is talking about PvP? That's silly.

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To be frank, Bourne really wasn't talking about the abilities of PvP but the system itself and how it fundamentally works against certain jobs. You're nitpicking about the abilities personally.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

To be frank, Bourne really wasn't talking about the abilities of PvP but the system itself and how it fundamentally works against certain jobs. You're nitpicking about the abilities personally.

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And as I said, they can't bring the system over because it would have to be redesigned, because they were already redesigned specifically for PvP. They would have to be redesigned for PvE again.

The combos would have to be made anew. They can't just give us PvP combos and call it a day. They aren't made for PvE.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

And as I said, they can't bring the system over because it would have to be redesigned, because they were already redesigned specifically for PvP. They would have to be redesigned for PvE again.

The combos would have to be made anew. They can't just give us PvP combos and call it a day. They aren't made for PvE.

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You're hoping that they can't when they've shown time and time again that they like copying things over instead of redesigning.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

You're hoping that they can't when they've shown time and time again that they like copying things over instead of redesigning.

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Then explain why they redesigned every job for PvP? They just copied it over in the past (more like left it untouched), but come SB, they completely revamped all of our abilities.

You can't say they just like to copy things over when this exact system is the very evidence to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Then explain why they redesigned every job for PvP? They just copied it over in the past (more like left it untouched), but come SB, they completely revamped all of our abilities.

You can't say they just like to copy things over when this exact system is the very evidence to the contrary.

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You haven't been paying attention this whole expansion pack have you? You're deflecting and shifting the goal posts each and every time, I don't really have to explain nothing nor do I have to prove anything to you.

You just don't want to admit that you might be wrong, plain and simple really.

Clearly, we're not playing the same expansion pack lately.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

We'll have to agree to disagree on much of this. Honestly, it's very simple for me to be able to access the 48 buttons I choose to access, and needing only to tap R1 to get to my second bar rather than "R1+Up" is less processing on my end..

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Getting back to your main bar though needs to cycle through R1 unless you do R1 + triangle. Plus, if you run a pet job, r1 is set aside for pet actions anyways. You can also access four bars instead of one via face buttons. I think it's pretty finicky based on jobs but thank goodness I no longer need to constantly switch like that.

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Well, considering you use Cover proactively instead of reactively, some delay is okay.

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Unless its on the main tank, it's almost always reactively. Even if you know it's coming, you don't know who the mechanic will be on. It's the same issue with rescue, imo. It's actually really hard to use it effectively, and the processing time doesn't help. Sort of an issue with SB abilities overall bards that use palisade effectively are very rare for example. Or say a BLM that uses apoc, the processing overhead gets high with moves targeting another, and the controller has a slight delay that doesn't help it. It's funny because Bard's Warden's Paeon actually is designed to mitigate that by precasting it, yet they never really went anywhere with that.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

You haven't been paying attention this whole expansion pack have you? You're deflecting and shifting the goal posts each and every time, I don't really have to explain nothing nor do I have to prove anything to you.

You just don't want to admit that you might be wrong, plain and simple really.

Clearly, we're not playing the same expansion pack lately.

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You say I'm deflecting as you refuse to answer the question. Nice.

That they have copied things in the past doesn't mean they copy things in every instance. I don't need to admit I might be wrong when the very thing I said is proof of what I said.

I'm perfectly willing to admit when I'm wrong. I conceded to that person earlier that there is no answer to their concerns. Their concerns are valid. It's a consequence of the change I'd like to see.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Getting back to your main bar though needs to cycle through R1 unless you do R1 + triangle. Plus, if you run a pet job, r1 is set aside for pet actions anyways. You can also access four bars instead of one via face buttons.

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PLD isn't a pet job, so you're shifting the goal posts a bit there. You can set what bars are available to be cycled through both with weapon sheathed and weapon unsheathed in the options menu.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...201&height=676

EDIT: Regarding the pet hotbar, this can be disabled, and all its abilities can be mapped to the regular bars as well. Would this be feasible? I couldn't say, but it's possible.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...201&height=676

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Unless its on the main tank, it's almost always reactively. Even if you know it's coming, you don't know who the mechanic will be on.

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Only situation that comes to mind where you'd cover somebody but don't know who is O6S, and even then you know who gets targeted by the rock spire earthquake ability well in advance of it actually going off. Otherwise, you only really ever cover MT for tankbuster help or the BRD/MCH for knockback mechanics. Both of which you should know will happen and who to target well in advance of it.

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It's the same issue with rescue, imo. It's actually really hard to use it effectively, and the processing time doesn't help.

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There's a reason it's not taken much? It's so niche of an ability and its rewards are only tentative. Might as well take something else that would be more useful. In niche situations it's useful but again, in those situations you know who you're targeting: in O4S for example, you rescue the PLD back after the knockback tankbuster the tanks share, because PLD doesn't have a gap closer.

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Sort of an issue with SB abilities overall bards that use palisade effectively are very rare for example.

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In lower end content where it's not as important, yes, you'll see less people bother with mitigation.

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Or say a BLM that uses apoc, the processing overhead gets high with moves targeting another, and the controller has a slight delay that doesn't help it.

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BLM have their own problems with oGCDs in particular, given their cast time is larger than their GCD. However, they obviously find ways to do it or Aetherial Manipulation would be a borderline useless skill.

You're blowing the difficulty out of proportion, really.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

You say I'm deflecting as you refuse to answer the question. Nice.

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I have the option to refuse to answer you if the answer is actually very obvious. I shouldn't have to spell things out. I don't hold people's hands on the forum.

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That they have copied things in the past doesn't mean they copy things in every instance.

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I remember when I used to say these things.

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I don't need to admit I might be wrong when the very thing I said is proof of what I said.

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That's not how it works.

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I'm perfectly willing to admit when I'm wrong. I conceded to that person earlier that there is no answer to their concerns. Their concerns are valid. It's a consequence of the change I'd like to see.

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Says the person who claimed that they knew nothing about MNK in PvE/PvP, proceeded to insult me because I knew what I was talking about with MNK, tried to put One Ilm Punch in a consolidation theory, and then claimed that they were still right about what they said even though they weren't.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Says the person who claimed that they knew nothing about MNK in PvE/PvP, proceeded to insult me because I knew what I was talking about with MNK, tried to put One Ilm Punch in a consolidation theory, and then claimed that they were still right about what they said even though they weren't.

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And you never answered what button it should change into that's more important. You have 3 buttons that change into 9 different combo abilities. If they were to change into 8, what should it change to instead of One Ilm Punch?

You're gaining One Ilm Punch on your hotbar at no extra cost. It doesn't matter if it's trash or not.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

And you never answered what button it should change into that's more important. You have 3 buttons that change into 9 different abilities. If they were to change into 8, what should it change to instead of One Ilm Punch?

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Well, if you actually played MNK and did your own research, you'd find that answer.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Regarding the pet hotbar, this can be disabled, and all its abilities can be mapped to the regular bars as well. Would this be feasible? I couldn't say, but it's possible.

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Yes, it is. This is actually how I play SCH and SMN because the Pet Hotbar irritates me and is full of buttons I don't (constantly) need. It's easier to just take the buttons you do need and assign them to your primary attack bars, while placing other things onto a non-attack bar. I actually have the controls for the Companion Chocobo set up the same way.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Well, if you actually played MNK and did your own research, you'd find that answer.

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Then I will assume you have no answer or don't want to admit you're wrong. Have a good day, then.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

PLD isn't a pet job, so you're shifting the goal posts a bit there. You can set what bars are available to be cycled through both with weapon sheathed and weapon unsheathed in the options menu.

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Eh, but the single tap is also vulnerable to fat fingering it. Otherwise the WXHD would be fine. And you're also needing to deal with muscle memory, so it doesn't work well unless you can map abilities in a manner. Like my base cure and my base stone sharing x is ok, but Aero 3 and a strong cure in the same button can mess you up. And for me, I play every single job at 70, so the layouts vary a lot and make having multiple bars a bit of a pain too past 32. Or rather, it did in HW, i just wound up dropping jobs then.
In any case, I don't think it can be said it's easy to access beyond 32; you are still dealing with a decent learning curve, both in configuring your layout and triaging abilities, and there still is reaction time penalty, so it's best anyways to reserve it for macros or uncommonly used stuff.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Then I will assume you have no answer or don't want to admit you're wrong. Have a good day, then.

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Maybe next time don't talk about a job you've never played and expect other people to do all of the work for you if you're going to act this way.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Eh, but the single tap is also vulnerable to fat fingering it.

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Everything is vulnerable to fatfingering. I fatfingered displacement and killed myself when I meant to hit corps-a-corps more times than I care to count.

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And you're also needing to deal with muscle memory, so it doesn't work well unless you can map abilities in a manner.

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AKA: Practice.

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you are still dealing with a decent learning curve, both in configuring your layout and triaging abilities, and there still is reaction time penalty, so it's best anyways to reserve it for macros or uncommonly used stuff.

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I'm glad we agree it's easy to access more than 32 abilities. Yes there's a learning curve, but it's a curve worth exploring, practicing, and mastering rather than begging for button consolidation.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

But they can't directly move them from PvP to PvE. They would have to be redesigned. Like I said, BRD doesn't even have 3 songs. SAM combos are 2 hits, not 3. They can't just bring the PvP combos over.

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But that's my point. It's more cost efficient and easier to redesign an existing system that already functions exactly how this hypothetical one would than implement something entirely new. Samurai may have two hit combos in PvP but Dragoon has four. Therefore, it's hardly a difficult feat to make that work with Samurai. They've already done it on other jobs.

I guarantee, if this go down this route, we'll either be given a choice on what abilities we want to consolidate onto a single button or they'll make the decision for us. And it be for every job because they'll be doing it to space hotbar space otherwise it's utterly pointless.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Maybe next time don't talk about a job you've never played and expect other people to do all of the work for you if you're going to act this way.

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Still haven't told me where it was wrong. I don't need the right answer, I want to know where you think it's wrong. It's on your hotbar at no extra cost. Whether One Ilm Punch in my proposed combo or not, you still have 3 buttons on your hotbar. Where's the issue?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Then explain why they redesigned every job for PvP? They just copied it over in the past (more like left it untouched), but come SB, they completely revamped all of our abilities.

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PvP and PvE actions were completely tied together and caused balancing issues (/extra work to manage), so when they started taking the hacksaw to PvE actions they just went ahead and separated PvP into its own thing. Which was also a bit shortsighted on Square's end since they apparently didn't think, while they were at it, to leave room so they could make adjustments for each mode of PvP individually. Some skills are weaker or stronger, or roles weaker or stronger (see: complaints about healers in Rival Wings), in the different gametypes and there's little or nothing they can do about it.

Which... feeds into the paranoia about how they would go about this on the PvE end, if we're being honest.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

But that's my point. It's more cost efficient and easier to redesign an existing system that already functions exactly how this hypothetical one would than implement something entirely new. Samurai may have two hit combos in PvP but Dragoon has four. Therefore, it's hardly a difficult feat to make that work with Samurai. They've already done it on other jobs.

I guarantee, if this go down this route, we'll either be given a choice on what abilities we want to consolidate onto a single button or they'll make the decision for us. And it be for every job because they'll be doing it to space hotbar space otherwise it's utterly pointless.

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I don't see the problem if we're given the choice of what abilities we want to consolidate. And if they make the decision for us, it won't directly be the exact combos from PvP. They will be redesigned. And if "optional," which most people who would like to see this would want, is to mean they don't add PvP's "You can't add this action to a hotbar," then you can still do everything you do now. Except you could also now add in the whole combo to your hotbar. So I'm not seeing the issue.