The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobs

The point I'm making is that WAR CAN out dps and clear content, and they are BUFFING WAR. The DMG creep is real.

Its not suppose to be like that, WAR is suppose to be a tank. But people are so obsessed with DPS that classes are loosing their cardinal roles. I can tell you in FF11 no one was worried about how much dmg a PLD was dishing out. His job was to stay alive.

If your response is "Its easy to stay alive as tank with healer in ff14," you are part of the problem.

---

Not sure why you're focusing on war, I'm perfectly capable of outdpsing actual dps as drk and pld too.

Man you all are loosing sight of the Actual Point.

The point is we should not even be talking about Tank's DPS at all, or healer's. That's not their job. The Hyper focus on DPS the problem. Having a 10min enrage time so everyone is focused on the DPS is the problem.

Let me say this again. Memorizing a DPS rotation IS NOT CHALLENGING.

The lowest common denominator is that you are defending non-challenging content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobs

Everyone is a DPS then. That sounds boring. If everything is a DPS we should just play a FPS or MOBA or Fighter. Where is the challenge? Don't tell me DPS is a challenge, people just look up whatever the rotation is and do that. Memorizing a DPS rotation is not vary challenging.

---

As opposed to....? Hitting a button in response to an attack thats either telegraphed for ten years or an attack that you know is coming due to it always appearing at certain points in an encounter? That sounds equally as fun.

Every class does dps and optimizing means optimizing dps. Its fine if you don't want to optimize but then you shouldn't demand that content that demands it changes to suit you.

DPS is just another word for fight the boss and cause it to hurt bad enough so you might have a chance to win. How is that not everyones job?

Now there is a great point made by a previous poster that memorizing dps rotations is not challenging, and therefore we can get rid of some of the button bloat without really hurting the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobs

Man you all are loosing sight of the Actual Point.

The point is we should not even be talking about Tank's DPS at all, or healer's. That's not their job. The Hyper focus on DPS the problem. Having a 10min enrage time so everyone is focused on the DPS is the problem.

Let me say this again. Memorizing a DPS rotation IS NOT CHALLENGING.

The lowest common denominator is that you are defending non-challenging content.

---

No, the actual point is that you're wrong and are incapable of grasping that. Killing stuff faster is ALWAYS better than killing it slower. Without exception. Less chance for mistakes to cause a wipe. More time to do other stuff.

If the tank can do their tank job with 15 seconds of effort per minute, what do you propose they do for the other 45 seconds? Because that's the reality right now. If your answer is nothing, than you're just advocating lazy play.

It's the same thing for healers. Boom, you're at full heath. Should I now spam overheal? Go eat some popcorn? Or hit Stone a few times and use my time productively? The answer is obvious.

Your beef is with SE for designing a game that makes this the optimal way to play. Ideological role purity is not a thing here. It doesn't matter if you like it or not. Reality doesn't care what you think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobs

Man you all are loosing sight of the Actual Point.

---

No. We're not. You just got called out on a nonsensical argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobs

Let me say this again. Memorizing a DPS rotation IS NOT CHALLENGING.

The lowest common denominator is that you are defending non-challenging content.

---

Memorizing isn't usually hard for most people, but for some it does take more effort. Depends on the person.

Besides that the savage and ultimate content in this game adds mechanics along with your rotation. You have to keep your rotation in order all while doing mechanics. You are kinda acting like all you need to do is memorize your rotation and you'll be able to sufficiently contribute to clear everything easily.

If memorizing your rotation is not challenging and the fights are not challenging then can I ask you how far you have cleared?

If it is not challenging to you then I am assuming I am talking to someone who has cleared Omega Deltascape 1-4S and also Ultimate? Do you execute your rotation 100% and always do good DPS?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobs

The Hyper focus on DPS the problem. Having a 10min enrage time so everyone is focused on the DPS is the problem.

---

The problem is that SE designs every encounter in this game to where any tank or healer who knows what they're doing can focus most of their effort on doing damage while still performing their main duties. I don't see how removing enrage timers would change that at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

snip

---

I thought it was established in another thread that he hasn't beaten anything past O2S...

Which is ironic because O3S/Shinryu Ex are incredibly challenging, yet, if I recall, as of a week ago he still hadn't beaten either of those two. Somehow has managed to not have any logs on his current character either.

Enrage timers exist so you cant 'outlast' a boss. Certain bosses arent mechanically hard, but have larger health pools which force players to dps harder and take more risks to ensure beating the enrage timer. If there was no enrage, All people would do is run comps that are almost unkillable (think going in with healers and tanks and just slowly widdling down the boss). In that scenario, having a dps would actually be a draw back.

Yes, tanks do need to do some Damage. This is because in one light, tnaking isnt difficult. You may get tank busters, and you get more focused damage, but keeping threat isnt mechanically difficult. So to make up for that difficulty shortfall as a tank, you too are required to do damage.

Now the only issue I have is technically I feel tanks should be designed to MT in their tank stance, and OT in their DPS stances. So Bosses should hit way harder, forcing tank stances, and more mechanics which necessitate tank swapping, so you cant just have 1 tank do the entire fight. That would be my thoughts on it, though thats just my own personal feelings on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobs

Everyone is a DPS then. That sounds boring. If everything is a DPS we should just play a FPS or MOBA or Fighter. Where is the challenge? Don't tell me DPS is a challenge, people just look up whatever the rotation is and do that. Memorizing a DPS rotation is not vary challenging.

---

Congratulations. Welcome to the design philosophy of Final Fantasy XIV. Everything basically is a DPS hybrid in this game because nothing hits remotely hard or consistent enough to warrant constant mitigation. Likewise, healing potencies are absurdly high. Only Ultimate has managed to bridge this gap because mechanics are near rapid-fire.

And hitting a tank CD isn't exactly rocket science either.

Oh how I wish we could make people that haven't beaten the last fight of the raid tier not comment on such things... I'm not even talking Ultimate here, just Neo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And hitting a tank CD isn't exactly rocket science either.

---

You say that but just last night people in my static were doing trap parties and complaining about how the tanks they got would pop CDs after they got hit by tankbusters. :^)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AxlStream

Oh how I wish we could make people that haven't beaten the last fight of the raid tier not comment on such things... I'm not even talking Ultimate here, just Neo.

---

...one fight. Why do people constantly say "if you haven't beaten this one fight, you can't talk about anything?" It gets old. You have people saying bobs can't talk because he hasn't beaten two fights

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

...one fight. Why do people constantly say "if you haven't beaten this one fight, you can't talk about anything?" It gets old. You have people saying bobs can't talk because he hasn't beaten two fights

---

Because that fight comes after having learned atleast 3 other high end fights. 1 and 2 being easy mode, it couldn't be them obviously. Content pugged in the 1st week as a barrier? Nuh huh. 3 is when your ability to actually be good comes into play. One mistake there isn't fatal but it can put your group in an awkward spot. The average player that can control his camera should be able to clear this after seeing it enough time. Now 4 is like a final exam. 1 death at any point is a major set back and a threat to the actual clear. Missing 1 mechanic doesn't only affect you but the entirety of the group as well. Players will often have to improvise trying to compensate for these mistakes and this forces the real competent people to shine through. 3 and 4 also bring unique mechanics that are seen nowhere else in the game. Failing mechanics to respect The Game in a certain order? Amazing. Mindjack? Annoying but interesting to optimise and only seen in 1 other dungeon : Sirensong Sea. Neo-Exdeath even forces you to actually kill yourself a few time to survive kind of like using Living Dead.

The fact that you haven't cleared those yet are still talking about an issue that isn't even relevant before the final fight shows you are one of two things.

1. Inexperienced and yet to have seen the actual endgame. Usually those are newer players still trying out many different things. High end mechanics isn't something you should even think about at that point. Just have fun.
2. Incompetent. It's not that you haven't tried. It's more that you can't do it. The barrier there is mostly yourself and you only got yourself to blame for what happened.

Most people that would agree with the OP in this thread would fall under #2 without a doubt. The crowd that wants the content brought down to their level instead of rising above the content themselves. Creator wasn't easy enough? Fair, tune it down more for Delta. Now that's still not easy enough? You want every fight to become the normal mode version or something?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

...one fight. Why do people constantly say "if you haven't beaten this one fight, you can't talk about anything?" It gets old. You have people saying bobs can't talk because he hasn't beaten two fights

---

Because, simply, O1S and O2S are barely even considered Savage. They're really not even Savage difficulty, they just hit harder. That's why. O3S is where the difficulty starts being appropriate for the title of Savage. If someone just takes on O1S/O2S and then complains about enrage and difficulty, then yes, they don't really know what they're talking about because they're closer in terms of difficulty to Shinryu normal than they are to Shinryu Ex/O3S.

I'm curious as to how difficult Byakko EX is going to be compared to Sephirot EX, since as far as I've heard, the latter was the toughest out of the Warring Triad on release.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm curious as to how difficult Byakko EX is going to be compared to Sephirot EX, since as far as I've heard, the latter was the toughest out of the Warring Triad on release.

---

Sephirot EX was hard because that's when SE started taking the training wheels off. Not having AoE indicators threw off alot of people, myself included.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Because, simply, O1S and O2S are barely even considered Savage. They're really not even Savage difficulty, they just hit harder.

---

Do I take you seriously if you talk about job balance despite only having 3 70s? That's barely leveling, considering how easy it is. Can you not complain about crafting since you don't even have any at 70? (assuming your character card is accurate, idk if they make them at one time and they can't be updated.)

I feel if you do things that have enrage and die to them frequently enough that it affects gameplay, you can understand and comment on them. I mean, you pug extreme primals or savage, you hit enrage often enough. The mechanic doesn't really change in concept in difficulty. In the same way, I think you can have opinions without maxing relevant content in the game. You can dislike big fish without catching them all; just going after titanic sawfish teaches you how screwed up the system can be. In the same way I don't hold it against people for having not all 70s or whatever to talk about things, nor hit the peak content to do so. Or only the top 100 or highest ranks could ever talk about Feast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Do I take you seriously if you talk about job balance despite only having 3 70s? That's barely leveling, considering how easy it is. Can you not complain about crafting since you don't even have any at 70? (assuming your character card is accurate, idk if they make them at one time and they can't be updated.)

I feel if you do things that have enrage and die to them frequently enough that it affects gameplay, you can understand and comment on them. I mean, you pug extreme primals or savage, you hit enrage often enough. The mechanic doesn't really change in concept in difficulty. In the same way, I think you can have opinions without maxing relevant content in the game. You can dislike big fish without catching them all; just going after titanic sawfish teaches you how screwed up the system can be.

---

See, this is where you are wrong on a lot of accounts. You quoted me, so I assume this is a direct response to me. I did not make any mention of job balance. So I don't even know where you even pulled that from. Secondly, if you can't even do some basic research on my classes, then you don't need to be making any kind of silly comments. No, I haven't updated my character card, but you know I raid and you can easily see both on FFLOGS and on the Lodestone that I have DRK, PLD, AST, SAM, RDM, and SMN at level 70.

Oh, and get this... I've fought everything in PVE content as far as post 4.0 with the notable exception of O4S. Which I have told you on multiple occasions.

I don't even know why you brought crafting up as I don't even craft, nor have i complained about crafting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm curious as to how difficult Byakko EX is going to be compared to Sephirot EX, since as far as I've heard, the latter was the toughest out of the Warring Triad on release.

---

That's not saying much. Sephirot was only hard because the tethers didn't (and still don't) adjust; if you had someone dead when they went out, minimally one other person would also be dying. Heavens help you if someone went and got themselves knocked off the platform. Sephirot also had this thing about using one-shot kills instead of proper damage, but his song and dance wasn't particularly difficult.

Thordan EX is the HW Primal that broke people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

...one fight. Why do people constantly say "if you haven't beaten this one fight, you can't talk about anything?" It gets old. You have people saying bobs can't talk because he hasn't beaten two fights

---

If someone is going to call any fight in this game "easy" or "not a challenge" then I expect them to have experienced said fights.

How can you say something is "easy" or "not challenging" to do when you haven't even step foot in the fight at all nor have a clear of said fight?

It's like if I said coronary artery bypass surgery is not a challenge to learn or to perform. I don't have a PHD nor am I a surgeon and I have never learned or performed said surgery so how can I say that? lol

People making claims about subjects they have no idea about or that they've never experienced usually doesn't work for obvious reasons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

...one fight. Why do people constantly say "if you haven't beaten this one fight, you can't talk about anything?" It gets old. You have people saying bobs can't talk because he hasn't beaten two fights

---

There's a difference though, he's claiming it's super easy but hasn't even beaten the fights yet? That's like if someone knew how to play Mary Had a Little Lamb on the piano, they look up a video of a more sophisticated and longer 5+ minute piece and say "wow that's easy, it's just hitting a bunch of keys in a certain order" and can't actually play it. Just makes them look silly and ignorant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Oh, and get this... I've fought everything in PVE content as far as post 4.0 with the notable exception of O4S. Which I have told you on multiple occasions..

---

I used you as a general point. People here are essentially saying "shut up until you've maxed current raid content in this game." There's really only ultimate after this, and according to Lucky Bancho's recent census barely 300 people in all of NA have cleared it. I think enrage in concept is something that you don't really need to make such a fine distinction, because it works the same way in ex/savage fights despite difficulty. The idea is the same; if you don't do enough long term dps the boss ends the fight after a certain phase, and its really only in ex and up content where you see it often enough where it makes a difference in failing fights.

I don't really like it if we're making raids all about two fights in the entire game now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vaer

There's a difference though, he's claiming it's super easy but hasn't even beaten the fights yet? That's like if someone knew how to play Mary Had a Little Lamb on the piano, they look up a video of a more sophisticated and longer 5+ minute piece and say "wow that's easy, it's just hitting a bunch of keys in a certain order" and can't actually play it. Just makes them look silly and ignorant.

---

The argument has been made in general, though. I'm sort of replying to that. And people have a bad tendency to say everything is easy once they've beaten it period. I'm sort of commenting on how apparently only two fights in this game are "real" raids because of difficulty, while the rest is just baby's first raid or something apaprently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

That's not saying much. Sephirot was only hard because the tethers didn't (and still don't) adjust; if you had someone dead when they went out, minimally one other person would also be dying. Heavens help you if someone went and got themselves knocked off the platform. Sephirot also had this thing about using one-shot kills instead of proper damage, but his song and dance wasn't particularly difficult.

Thordan EX is the HW Primal that broke people.

---

Sephirot was only hard because the fight was designed by the same guy who designed the Titan EX fight, and Thordan was only hard because it was one of the first EX fights that threw more than a couple of mechanics at the group at once.

As for Byakko, I think the fight is designed as a means of training people up for Sigmascape Savage (or at least give them better weapons for it), so I suspect there will be a moderate degree of difficulty there and probably on par with Shinryu EX or harder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The argument has been made in general, though. I'm sort of replying to that. And people have a bad tendency to say everything is easy once they've beaten it period. I'm sort of commenting on how apparently only two fights in this game are "real" raids because of difficulty, while the rest is just baby's first raid or something apaprently.

---

But... O1S and O2S litterally are "Baby's first raid"! The only other Savage fight that was close to them on difficulty out of the Savage content WHILE it was current, was A9S. Also A9S had 2 enrage timers!

Maybe 14 should've been developed by Fisher Price

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AxlStream

But... O1S and O2S litterally are "Baby's first raid"! The only other Savage fight that was close to them on difficulty out of the Savage content WHILE it was current, was A9S. Also A9S had 2 enrage timers!

---

Might as well call ex trials not raiding either, since overall they are simpler than 03s and 04s. Pretty soon we'll call all raids useless, the only real endgame is whether you can beat ultimate or not. But I mean even at a lowered difficulty, the design is still similar enough that you can understand enrage and talk about it, because it does effect players in the same way. You pug O1s in a learning party, people hit enrage for the same reasons in later fights. The bar is lower but works the same way, where none of the fights in exprt stuff even last long enough to do so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I used you as a general point. People here are essentially saying "shut up until you've maxed current raid content in this game." There's really only ultimate after this, and according to Lucky Bancho's recent census barely 300 people in all of NA have cleared it. I think enrage in concept is something that you don't really need to make such a fine distinction, because it works the same way in ex/savage fights despite difficulty. The idea is the same; if you don't do enough long term dps the boss ends the fight after a certain phase, and its really only in ex and up content where you see it often enough where it makes a difference in failing fights.

I don't really like it if we're making raids all about two fights in the entire game now.

---

Except whatever point you thought you were making makes no sense in context because most of the things you were talking about had nothing to do with me.

I have no idea why you keep up bringing up lucky bancho. It only reports clears for people who get the mounts. Not everyone has the mount. And for whatever reason, you keep on mentioning the hardest fight in the game thus far. It's like you quote data you don't even understand

Dunno where you got the idea that people are making the game about raids. You've been the threads springing up about housing. What are you talking about

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Except whatever point you thought you were making makes no sense in context because most of the things you were talking about had nothing to do with me.

---

He's really the only data we have. And the numbers in general are still low enough you could high ball them by a factor of 3 and have issues. Its not about raids in game, my initial point was that people are trying to make "serious" raiding only encompassing two fights, and i used ultimate as a point to show how silly the mindset is, because for someone who beats that nothing in the game before is a serious raid any more. You were just a convenient example to show the dangers of making maxed out content a requirement to talk about stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Might as well call ex trials not raiding either, since overall they are simpler than 03s and 04s. Pretty soon we'll call all raids useless, the only real endgame is whether you can beat ultimate or not. But I mean even at a lowered difficulty, the design is still similar enough that you can understand enrage and talk about it, because it does effect players in the same way. You pug O1s in a learning party, people hit enrage for the same reasons in later fights. The bar is lower but works the same way, where none of the fights in exprt stuff even last long enough to do so.

---

We all know what enrage is. What we're saying is, people that can't deal with said enrage timers shouldn't talk about them. It's not the timer that's faulty, it's the players performances. Also I play Scholar but do you see me talking about them on the forums saying they need buffs? No. Because I don't master Scholar like I master the end game fights. Therefor I talk about end game fight mechanics and not Scholars.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

It becomes my business when that's the excuse they want to use for why they're in my PF. Or why I'm having a harder time carrying them in some random DF because they're constantly on the ground or otherwise doing their impression of a corpse with regards to how many buttons they're actually pushing in any given encounter.

That being said, I'd like to believe you're aware that I don't actually care what they do with their money and their time. And I'd like to reiterate that I'm not sure the people described in Kamatsu's strawman actually even exist.


Really? Come on. I deserve better than some throwaway Star Wars quote. I pay me sub and do the gud deeps! I do the gud deeps! :|
Kylo Ren is a punk.


Obviously the game is friendly to casual players - except when it's not, I mean - but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it is in SE's best interest to not cater to the whims of people that don't want to put any effort whatsoever into their game, that for all intents and purposes will never be a reliable revenue stream on an individual level, else we wind up with the current PvP combat system in PvE and encounters that never rise above a mildly-pitched yawn.

Let's not act like people weren't/aren't peeved at Steps of Faith, The Chrysalis, Garuda normal, etc. being nerfed. That people weren't adamant about Ozma, Nidhogg and Shinryu not receiving mechanical changes to appease the vocal backlash. That people weren't happy that 2.x had actual endgame progression structure - even if just as many, if not more, were happy when it was eventually abolished.


Don't get me started on that group. Anything they want is definitely the last thing I want, XIV and especially otherwise.


Balance is indeed the key. While I have no quick and dirty example like Wildstar on the hardcore end, I can't imagine many games can survive solely off of their fickle and unreliable casual audience. I've gone down the rabbit hole a number of times weighing theories for what the game would look like if the higher end of the skill spectrum vanished.

---

Unfortunately a lot of this will come down to quarterly P&L statements and if statistics are showing a higher profit when appeasing grey tier players by dumbing down content, that's exactly what will happen. The entirety of Stormblood reeks of grey tier hand-holding with the exception of Ultimate and will likely continue until they push those that like a challenge completely away from the game. At that point the content will be based around glamor contests, party chat during "extreme" primals and "savage" raids while ordering the newest pretty outfit, mount, minion and emote from the mog station. $$ talks and grey tier players are more likely to throw their cash at SE for the thrill of that 2 minute lap dance rather than the much deeper and complex but infinitely more fulfilling experience of a truly savage raid. Instant gratification and entitlement culture at it's best.

The only real impediment to beating -any- content is getting into a group with the will and desire to clear it. Learning how to do difficult content isn't really beyond any moderately healthy individual's capacity. it's entirely practice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mavrias

Probably because the lowest common denominator there is including people who hit a button once every 30 seconds or are flat out dead half the encounter?

---

Touche. I suppose somewhere in the middle would be more appropriate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llus

Unfortunately a lot of this will come down to quarterly P&L statements and if statistics are showing a higher profit when appeasing grey tier players by dumbing down content, that's exactly what will happen..

---

there simply aren't enough high skill players to make any game work. I mean, they had to make data center wide party matching because each server often couldn't field enough raiders for the hard content at the time to staff it; if your static broke up, transferring server was a serious option, just to be close to enough of a critical mass of raiders to do things. In general, they have to design for a triangle; the base of characters tends to narrow pretty fast the harder they make content.

Even EVE, which is considered hardcore, is built on people just farming mindless pve in concord space.

The snowflakes won't stop until they've had everything handed to them on a silver platter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

He's really the only data we have. And the numbers in general are still low enough you could high ball them by a factor of 3 and have issues. Its not about raids in game, my initial point was that people are trying to make "serious" raiding only encompassing two fights, and i used ultimate as a point to show how silly the mindset is, because for someone who beats that nothing in the game before is a serious raid any more.

---

You say you used ultimate...but ultimate was created specific with the hardcore in mind. You quote me and point me out, but I have not once stated that one needs to try Ultimate to have this discussion. As many of us have told you many many many many many many many times, O3S/O4S are the serious raids, thus if one has cleared at least one of these fights, then hey are more qualified to actually talk about enrage timers, difficulty, and such. But no, you did typical Riyah stuff and went straight to an extreme and chose Ultimate.

And on that note, if one is complaining about difficulty and enrage timers at this point (as in, not minimum iLvl, has learned the fight) on O1S and O2S, then the problem is the not the design of the fight - it's the player themselves

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You were just a convenient example to show the dangers of making maxed out content a requirement to talk about stuff.

---

Such an irritating thing to say. And yet you still failed to even highlight that, because I have repeatedly said O3S...that is quite literally the halfway point of the previous raid tier. Again, if one cannot make it past the halfway point of the Deltascape tier, who are they to even bring up enrage timers? Let's be honest, if you have a halfway competent PUG group, you will not really hit the hard enrage timer on most content, provided you actually know how to do your jobs and understand the mechanics. With unsynced, the enrage timer is not really a factor in practically any of the ARR/HW primals or raids (I don't have experience with Alex savage, so anybody who recently did these at 70, feel free to correct me on the point on enrage timers.

Or were you trying to intentionally irritate me?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

there simply aren't enough high skill players to make any game work.

---

And whose fault do you think that is? Because last I checked, it's not usually raiders complaining about the skill ceiling...it's more or less midcores and casuals who complain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

This is a perfect example of someone who doesn't understand how to use fflogs.

Do you understand what "minimum" percentile means? It's like the "who is AFK?" or "who spent the entire fight dead" parses.

You're looking at the worst possible parses and judging based on that that WAR is somehow stronger than actual DPS jobs. It simply doesn't work that way...if a DRG spends an entirety of a fight dead then yeah a WAR that stays alive is going to beat them in damage. Duh.

It just happens that there were more extremely bad minimum DRG and MCH parses than WAR. Not because WAR actually does more damage lol go look at ANY percentile besides minimum.

---

Everyone really should be looking at 50th percentile. By definition 50th percentile is the average player. This is the player that knows their rotation, generally knows they need to keep their own buffs up but don't usually know when party buffs are up, may not know when to hold their burst (or may not know their burst well enough to do it at the right time/completely). In general, someone that knows their class but not how to optimize it. People below 50th percentile are those that are average and have died multiple times or have really screwed up their rotation stopped hitting the boss for an extended period of time or (for those consistently below 30th percentile) just have no idea what their rotation is or cleared the fight examining the colors in the rocks stuck on their faces. Those above 50th percentile are either getting lucky crits, getting lucky with timing their bursts for raid buffs or (for those consistently above 70th percentile) are descent at timing their bursts to match raid buffs and know the fight well enough to have at least begun to optimize. Considering that anywhere from 25% to 40% of your damage can come from auto-attacks it's REAALLY bad when an average player could literally outdps someone in the 10th percentile with just auto-attacks. Think about how bad you'd have to be to be outclassed by auto-attacks and then think about reading some guides or getting some assistance from people that know your class. When I look at my numbers, holy crap I'm sooooo embarrassed that I actually try to learn something instead of demanding the game be changed so I don't have to worry about what I'm doing wrong.

@miste, this isn't aimed at you - i'm agreeing with you that ANYTHING other than MIN is a better comparison

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Do I take you seriously if you talk about job balance despite only having 3 70s?

---

How is this remotely comparable? The actual equivalent would be me giving Scholar advice when it's fairly obviously I don't play it. Bobs is claiming Ultimate isn't hard yet has never even set foot inside it. As someone who has, let me tell, Ultimate is on a whole separate level. For him to make such a remark screams ignorance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

But no, you did typical Riyah stuff and went straight to an extreme

---

You're usually so calm and cool but this... this is a gem. Thank you ma'am. You've brightened an otherwise boring day. Take all my likes, they're yours. Stand up to those crybullies! It's appreciated by those of us with less patience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

How is this remotely comparable? The actual equivalent would be me giving Scholar advice when it's fairly obviously I don't play it. Bobs is claiming Ultimate isn't hard yet has never even set foot inside it. As someone who has, let me tell, Ultimate is on a whole separate level. For him to make such a remark screams ignorance.

---

My point is more for the tendency that I have been noticing that only 3 and 4 are the real endgame, and that you can't comment on raiding at all unless you beat 4. The job thing was an analogy to that; because leveling all jobs to 70 is a rough equivalent of gatekeeping compared to leveling only a few. As for people commenting on easiness, well it works both ways; its just annoying to people who do o1s and o2 who get all their efforts dismissed in the same manner. I keep seem to get my main points misunderstood, though I try to restate them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

And whose fault do you think that is? Because last I checked, it's not usually raiders complaining about the skill ceiling...it's more or less midcores and casuals who complain.

---

There's no fault at all. I mean there isn't simply enough players who can reach a level of skill that can populate a game. MMOs cost too much to turn into niche hardcore games that rely on a small playerbase.