Melee roles are being gimped in this game

There's nothing harder about playing ranged than melee, quit kidding yourselves; ranged is ezmode as in every other mmo, melee is heavily punished for being melee. 50 blm reporting in

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Originally Posted by Techro

Ok i understand that. The point i'm trying to make is that at the end everyone in the party worked together to achieve a common goal. If you did not know how much dps anyone was doing, this would never be a problem. I also understand the high risk high reward but in this train of thought you are saying that your reward is just the satisfaction that you did more dmg then a mage. Instead your reward should be that you defeated the raid boss no matter how much less/more dmg anyone did. If for some strange reason they decided to award better gear or a "prize" for doing more dps then i would see your point in a different light but as it stands I just want the common goal

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you say it all my friend. to bad people dont care about the "group" and are more concerned about there own epeen. its a common flexing of egos that i dont understand

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Originally Posted by Jayded

There's nothing harder about playing ranged than melee, quit kidding yourselves; ranged is ezmode as in every other mmo, melee is heavily punished for being melee. 50 blm reporting in

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no kiddin'

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Originally Posted by Jayded

There's nothing harder about playing ranged than melee, quit kidding yourselves; ranged is ezmode as in every other mmo, melee is heavily punished for being melee. 50 blm reporting in

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except when it come to pvp

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Originally Posted by Sterob

except when it come to pvp

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You mean the PvP that isn't out yet? Coming from a class that so far can do 100% damage while being 100% mobile? Melee already cannot hit a moving target even if it's (A) in front of them and (B) in melee range. Not to mention positional requirements to do maximum damage.

Typical BRD stupidity...

"Oh noes!!11, we're going to be weak in PvP, unless we're completely OP like we are in PvE, then we're okay and totally fine. It's other players that need to learn their class."

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dragoon

Then you haven't been paying attention. Weight of the Land is very random, and as melee, I've had to dodge them right along with all the range being up.

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I still think plumes are harder for rdps to dodge, at the very least this would explain why they get hit with them all the time.

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Originally Posted by Yagoua

I still think plumes are harder for rdps to dodge, at the very least this would explain why they get hit with them all the time.

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What makes it harder? A black mage loses more dps from plumes than a dragoon, but should have an equal chance to dodge if not better by having more control over your position when it's cast (not being limited to melee range)

in ifrit fight, you can place yourself before the plumes come out, in titan fight even dps lookout for plumes for avoid them and reduce often them dps.

One of the fixes that needs to be done across the board for melee is this
(and this is coming from a supposed tank, I play a paladin)
1) increase melee's damage resistance
I know many of you will say NO WAY but listen to this
As it stands now- as a paladin I CAN WEAR CLOTH armor and take BARELY anymore damage than I take with PLATE.

Boss specials hit SO HARD that it DOESNT MATTER who your agro magnet is-- the party healer STILL HAS TO SPAM HEAL him to keep him up

This is relevant to melee DPS because they all take huge amount of damage if they stay to DPS during specials.

So my solution is to to give any melee class an inherent damage mitigation % in dungeons such that they take X amount less damage than ranged characters. My value for X is 60-70 as these bosses hit for absurd numbers.

This would allow melee DPS to stay in and DPS.
The damage mitigation as it is right now in this game is terrible for every class, but it impacts melees more.

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Originally Posted by Reclusiarch

This would allow melee DPS to stay in and DPS.
The damage mitigation as it is right now in this game is terrible for every class, but it impacts melees more.

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This wouldn't work to be honest.. Why have mechanics if you make classes capeable of easily ignoring them.

Drg/Mnk need a substantial potency buff on their core skills to give you a reason to bring more than 0 of them to BC. I'm happy to leave the utility (silences/AOEs/add management) to the ranged classes because melee have enough to do between dpsing and avoiding all the melee-hate mechanics that ff14 bosses have so much of.

It's a shame how things are right now because melee rotations and positioning make them a lot more fun than the ranged dps rotations which are really dumbed down.

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Originally Posted by Reclusiarch

This would allow melee DPS to stay in and DPS.

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Even if you are taking less damage you are still making your healers waste CDs on healing you. If SE were going to go the route of allowing melee dps to 'stick to bosses' they should take a page from TERA and give melee classes iframe skills, which if timed perfectly allow you to avoid damage without having to physically move out of the AOEs *cough*dragoon jump*cough*

Sorry for bad spell and gramma
Monk let mnk(Not pug) use 2 of fist cast mptick/tptick. shouldn´t be overpower.

Dragoon Timing jump show skillful.But Spineshatter n Dragonfire recast is too long. If shorter it we can do better dps when boss cast many AoE or Doom Spike close gap with face enemy only after running away increase tp cost or else is no use dragonfire/spineshatter.

Bard I like range, but I just want to stay logic.
NoneGlobeCoolDown too many
Bloodletter recast is 15s good enough. Crithit 50% chance windbite/vemonshot isnt much. But intern release+straight shot.
Brd should has to stand still for full dps/moving half dps/low acc. Have you see archer running with feet and shot this size of bow?I see archer ride horse and shot or middle air shot but I never see a archer running and shot like this

Mercy stroke 90s is too long make it 20s. Also help Drg n mnk increase dps n survival chance n fight equal Misery End
own selfish whine. But give a though of those please.

Lies. Monks have the highest dps in game. We have observed this during coil 2.

Clearly those who are saying melees are weak should learn how play their class.

I cannot say for dragoon if theyre gimped or weak, but for monks, saw it first had how strong their dps is

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Originally Posted by Aries37

Even if you are taking less damage you are still making your healers waste CDs on healing you. If SE were going to go the route of allowing melee dps to 'stick to bosses' they should take a page from TERA and give melee classes iframe skills, which if timed perfectly allow you to avoid damage without having to physically move out of the AOEs *cough*dragoon jump*cough*

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I'm kinda liking that idea for the utilization of jump.

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Originally Posted by Astralis

Lies. Monks have the highest dps in game. We have observed this during coil 2.

Clearly those who are saying melees are weak should learn how play their class.

I cannot say for dragoon if theyre gimped or weak, but for monks, saw it first had how strong their dps is

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lol u serious...?

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Originally Posted by Whiz

lol u serious...?

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Yes. The thing is people saying theyre weak because they dont have huge numbers. Monks rely on fast attack and low gcd. While other classes are doing 1.2k per attack with cast time or cooldown, monks can generate 400 per attack and deliver 3 attacks or more within 2-3secs

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Originally Posted by Astralis

Yes. The thing is people saying theyre weak because they dont have huge numbers. Monks rely on fast attack and low gcd. While other classes are doing 1.2k per attack with cast time or cooldown, monks can generate 400 per attack and deliver 3 attacks or more within 2-3secs

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The problem is there are very few opportunities for melee, especially monks, to maximize their damage. It doesn't matter how high your potential DPS is if you rarely have a situation where you can actually reach those numbers.

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Originally Posted by Astralis

Yes. The thing is people saying theyre weak because they dont have huge numbers. Monks rely on fast attack and low gcd. While other classes are doing 1.2k per attack with cast time or cooldown, monks can generate 400 per attack and deliver 3 attacks or more within 2-3secs

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Actually no, the thing people say is weak about monks is how hard it is to keep greased lightning up during binding coil thanks to boss mechanics. I personally have not done it as a monk so I will not know how true that is, but one thing i do know is that if greased lightning falls off, a monk's DPS goes down the gutter.

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Originally Posted by Ixsiehn

Actually no, the thing people say is weak about monks is how hard it is to keep greased lightning up during binding coil thanks to boss mechanics. I personally have not done it as a monk so I will not know how true that is, but one thing i do know is that if greased lightning falls off, a monk's DPS goes down the gutter.

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It's not true, I never have an issue keeping my Greased Lightning stacks up on turns 1-4. I don't have any idea where people get the idea that Monks can't keep up their stacks in Coil. Primal HM, sure I can see that. But in Coil? Turn 1, tank/spank. Turn 2, run out, run in. Turn 3, hurr, Turn 4, why can't I hold all these adds?!

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Originally Posted by Astralis

Lies. Monks have the highest dps in game. We have observed this during coil 2.

Clearly those who are saying melees are weak should learn how play their class.

I cannot say for dragoon if theyre gimped or weak, but for monks, saw it first had how strong their dps is

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Eh did you factor in the other classes having lower damage due to ADS buffs? Please tell me you did.......

Likely not, because this forum is full of dumb shit.

Im betting monk likely used limit break and you didnt factor that in either....

Im not saying you are wrong, just that im skeptical everytime someone mentions turn 2 as a damage comparason, since its possibly the worst fight in the entire game for comparison without knowing exactly how much damage the buffs reduce and factoring that in.

Would be nice to see more bosses with Ranged AoE moves since, from what I'm reading, this isn't the case. If they did, then it'd even out the playing field a bit more -- a ranged DPS would be more sought out for x dungeon/primal fight, while a melee DPS would be more sought out for y dungeon/primal fight. This really should have been the case all along, though. It just makes sense to have some dungeons that are harder for ranged combatants, while others are harder for melee combatants.

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Originally Posted by xyaie

The usual issue with that is if a boss is doing ranged aoes, the ranged stand in melee (blm might not be able to)

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Lol, I didn't think of that... But very true. Maybe bosses could have a mix of AoEs -- both ranged and melee? I do think some sort of change should be made to boss mechanics to take into account the fact that melee DPS are being "shunned" in favor of ranged DPS in parties. But perhaps it's something that could be implemented in the to-be-released dungeons/primal fights and onwards (since, as far as I know, this problem is mostly encountered in our current endgame?).

The usual issue with that is if a boss is doing ranged aoes, the ranged stand in melee (blm might not be able to)

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Originally Posted by xyaie

The usual issue with that is if a boss is doing ranged aoes, the ranged stand in melee (blm might not be able to)

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Many MMO's simply tag ranged classes/jobs, so that's not too hard a fix. The boss just won't ever tag melee classes. The actual proximity doesn't matter.
In WoW, it's a step further where ranged have to do a good bit more mechanics which aren't just like dodge aoes.

Not sure if that's better, but range only aoes would be a good.

The main problem currently is that melee takes 10x the effort to play as ranged in order to match a ranged dps or even lose to them slightly, while bringing little to no utility. It's borked pretty bad. I hope they fix bad melee soon, nn another ranged fest MMO like a lot turn into.

It's ridiculous that every new MMO seems to have this issue even though the solutions for it have been around for years now. PbAoE should be rare and ranged classes should have their own mechanics to deal with that simply never target a melee class. It really is that simple. But for some reason nearly every MMO fails at it. The designers just give everything cleaves and PbAoEs and call it a day.

Bump.

/10char

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Originally Posted by Stormsoul

this game handled it better by at least making it so you NEED one melee DPS for the limit break, in some other games people would just completely stack ranged dps.

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This is more dependent on certain things. Raid comp is influenced most by content design, because if you design a boss with mechanics that had to be dealt with by melee AND ranged then you have an environment that encourages you to bring a balanced raid comp. If you have content that punishes melee then yes, melee become a huge liability to the success of the raid.

I've never been to Coil and have no idea how it is set up, so I'll have to ask if it has multiple bosses per turn or just trash and one big boss at the end. If its the former then there's no reason to bring a balanced comp unless the devs took the piss and made EVERYTHING punishing to melee. If its the latter then there's the source of your problem and something that should be dealt with. Blizzard eventually caught on to this by making some bosses more punishing to ranged and some bosses more punishing to melee within the same raid instance and always having mechanics that needed to be dealt with by both. thus raid leaders and guilds looked at their raid comps with the entire instance in mind rather than encounter by encounter while keeping all involved parties relevant.

Bump.

/10char

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Originally Posted by Astralis

Lies. Monks have the highest dps in game. We have observed this during coil 2.

Clearly those who are saying melees are weak should learn how play their class.

I cannot say for dragoon if theyre gimped or weak, but for monks, saw it first had how strong their dps is

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I'm always on top damage as a mnk, i can avoid AoE, my only issue actually is the enmity generated, i pull to much enmity on boss.

Atleast on Bahamuth Coil.

On primal... it's hard to keep the damage up as we lose often Grease Lightning.

If i had to change something, i would give Melee more AoE buff/debuff.

Some ideas here:
Mnk have Mantra, but it's range is low (enhance it by x2).
Feather Foot could be an AoE (enhance Evasion for everyone in range, very low range tho) and lower enmity generated.
Make "Haymaker" out of GCD (and no TP use), Touch of Death too.
Grease Lightning have longer duration time.
Perfect Balance could pop up 3 stack of grease lightning, lower recast time to 60s~ and reduce the duration or cancel it.
Second Wind could add a regen to anyone in range (low range) while under the effect of Mantra.

Under Fist of Wind it could enhance the effect of Feather Foot and Second Wind.
Under Fist of Earth it could enhance the effect of Mantra, have a small percent to give you the effect of stoneskin while under the effect of Fist of Earth when getting damage.
Under Fist of Fire... 100% chance of generating a stack of grease lightning every 50s, 40% chance generating 2 stacks, 10% chance for 3 stacks (in combat only).

Well, some of them might be overpowered, just have to balance it.

Hi there,

I am proberly going to get yelled at for this. But why not.

On Archer, at level 20 & 40, they get action boost traits. I think these should kick in once the archer has been still for x ammount of seconds.

For example, if archer doesn't move, the first trait kicks in after 4 seconds, The get a Buff on screen like "Bunkered" or something. Then if contiunes to stay still, 4 seconds after the second trate activates. The Buff is lost once the archer moves.

As a tank, I can find it hard keeping hate with Bards sometimes, because I have to move out of AoE range and they keep firing away.

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Originally Posted by DarkReed

Hi there,

I am proberly going to get yelled at for this. But why not.

On Archer, at level 20 & 40, they get action boost traits. I think these should kick in once the archer has been still for x ammount of seconds.

For example, if archer doesn't move, the first trait kicks in after 4 seconds, The get a Buff on screen like "Bunkered" or something. Then if contiunes to stay still, 4 seconds after the second trate activates. The Buff is lost once the archer moves.

As a tank, I can find it hard keeping hate with Bards sometimes, because I have to move out of AoE range and they keep firing away.

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You could at least call out when you are using other peoples ideas instead of taking credit for them.

From a post I made:

Alright, I lied in my last post. I will give a small amount of feedback on how I think bard should be changed. I would change Increased Action Damage I and II

Example

Increased Action Damage II: Increases base action damage by 20% after standing still for 3 seconds. This buff lasts for 1 second after moving.

This targets their mobility without removing it. This targets their damage without lowering it. Last but not least this targets their positioning without changing their abilities.

While that will not fix all the problems people have with bards (another being song stacking). I do think it is a solid start.

My take on melee design is that they should be high burst on demand to make up for the fact that they have to move at unpredictable times. The high burst can offset the lower sustained DPS. Granted, for balance, this burst has to be regulated somehow. That would be either spikey TP mechanics (similar to what Black Mages deal with) or with cooldowns on a few key abilities. Melee should also feature some really juicy group utility. Every job should have something to offer the group, something unique and desirable.

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Originally Posted by Sithlord006

My take on melee design is that they should be high burst on demand to make up for the fact that they have to move at unpredictable times. The high burst can offset the lower sustained DPS. Granted, for balance, this burst has to be regulated somehow. That would be either spikey TP mechanics (similar to what Black Mages deal with) or with cooldowns on a few key abilities. Melee should also feature some really juicy group utility. Every job should have something to offer the group, something unique and desirable.

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That's just not how some are built though. Monk burst is pretty much non-existent. Goon is probably the best burst in the game, or up there with bard at least. Melee is just bad, bad bad right now, and there's no reason or incentive to play anything other than bard to be completely honest other than durrrr i like dah animashunz!

My thing with Bard is that I really don't think the class is broken. It appears that way because it is the class that is least impacted by broken game mechanics, the delay on AoEs and mob cast times. Bards can be moving before it ever pops without breaking their attacks. Other classes either anticipate the cast, needlessly damaging their DPS, or try to move, lose DPS, AND get hit anyway. In my opinion, until that issue is dealt with, discussing class balance is a moot point.

I can think of lots of reasons to bring Summoner or Black Mage. Granted, the party is pretty much always better off with at least one Bard included, but I don't believe the ideal set up is 4 Bard DPS. Unfortunately, I can scarcely imagine any reason to bring a monk at all, and Dragoon is only good under certain conditions. I don't think Bard is overpowered to the point that it needs to be immediately fixed, but I whole heartedly agree that melee needs some love.

They just need to kill the need for positioning requirements for DRG. It really takes the fun out the job.

It's real simple: Risk versus Reward.
Range DPS enjoy having less risk, therefor their rewards should be less. Melee should enjoy greater rewards for the greater risk they take for being in so close.

Here's an example: In DCUO (say what you will about the MMO), DPS used to consist of only long range weapons because risk/reward was not balanced. They then gave an innate Critical Hit Chance buff, and a Critical Hit Damage buff to melee weapons (it would be classes in this game).

So, out goes range dps and in comes melee, right? No, not really. If a melee dps had the skill to survive through the greater RISK of being in melee range, then they would most certainly do greater damage than their ranged weapon counterparts--that is their REWARD. However, a dead DPS does no DPS. If the melee DPS could not handle the risk of being in melee, they would die, and ranged DPS would certainly over take them. The REWARD for being ranged DPS was less RISK of dying and less strain on the healers.

Giving melee classes an innate critical hit chance bonus of 10% and an innate critical hit damage bonus of 10% (or whatever combination) over their ranged counterparts could potentially fix this problem, or at least be a step in the right direction. Still, ranged dps has to be equally viable--just for other reasons.

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Originally Posted by Aries37

If SE were going to go the route of allowing melee dps to 'stick to bosses' they should take a page from TERA and give melee classes iframe skills, which if timed perfectly allow you to avoid damage without having to physically move out of the AOEs *cough*dragoon jump*cough*

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Honestly I'm surprised this isn't already how Jump works. I played a Shadowpriest in WoW and one of my favourite parts of the class was being able to survive certain mechanics through effective use of Shadowform, allowing me to maximize DPS by minimizing downtime. To me, these are the kinds of tricks that make DPS classes more fun to play.

Versus equally geared players, I've yet seen anyone outdpsin me by a large margin or just outdpsin me at all.

Melees aren't gimped, or bad, or anything you can think about. They are however 2 different designs : super high controlled burst on demand, and insane sustained damage with a lack of burst. Monks are pretty much on par with Summoners, which make them 2 the highest dds atm.

Melees arent bad. People are ;)

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Originally Posted by Jayded

That's just not how some are built though. Monk burst is pretty much non-existent. Goon is probably the best burst in the game, or up there with bard at least. Melee is just bad, bad bad right now, and there's no reason or incentive to play anything other than bard to be completely honest other than durrrr i like dah animashunz!

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What are you talking about? Melee dps destroys bard dps. Melee are very viable in end game.

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Originally Posted by CHunterX

Here's some simple suggestions for Monk that I believe will really help the class shine in endgame fights better:

Speed up all animations.
Change cross-class skills selection from Marauder to Archer. Monk is not a tank. Change should carry over to Dragoon as well.

Greased Lightning: Duration stays the same, but when you lose Greased Lightning, it drops down one stack (Greased Lightning III wears off and becomes Greased Lightning II).
Enhanced Featherfoot: In addition to evasion rate increase, freezes duration of Greased Lightning for its duration (makes it useful for parties/AoE situations)
Fists of Wind: Increase movement speed bonus (it's hardly a noticeable change currently), add "Additional Effect: Doubles duration of Greased Lightning stacks acquired after activating Fists of Wind" (Useful for fights like Garuda/Titan)

*Other stuff mentioned too*

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SE needs to hire this man.