Rescue is Griefing

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

All this stuff

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I'm comparing rescue to other ways that other players have an impact on your enjoyment of the game. Rescue is not special in that regard and pretending that it is a special problem... lol

Making me read this is also griefing.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

To highlight LittleImp's point, I'll use RDM. If you get rescued during a melee combo, it isn't one GCD you're losing but several due to the fact you literally can't press any other button without breaking side combo. So you have to run back into melee range to finish it and if the person does press something, having not expected the rescue, then they'll have lost even more damage. Rescuing a BLM can cause them to drop Enochian if done at the wrong moment. NIN can bunny Mudras because the sudden movement causes them to accidentally press a button they weren't intending to.

Does any of this matter in casual content? No. That doesn't make it any less annoying, especially when the Rescue didn't accomplish anything.

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Oh it can be 'annoying', sure. I get annoyed any time someone starts heal spamming me when I have raw intuition. That doesn't mean I'm going to head to the forums and make a thread about how I didn't consent to being healed and the skill should be removed because I can heal myself just fine. And trust me, heal spammers are a lot more of a DPS loss than 1-2 GCDs for an improper rescue. I just accept it as a part of playing an online game with other people. They may not play as efficiently as I do and it's fine.

It's VERY Karen behavior to think "I am annoyed therefore I am right".

i think it's fun

can be used for plenty of genuine, supportive moments as real utility to aid an encounter -- be it cancelling out of an LB animation, generating more uptime in some fights, pulling people into your healing ground aoes, etc... etc... as an ability it's prolly one of the more interesting ones still left in the game.

can be used to annihilate my friends

someone kill you once with it? ask them not to/roll with the punch/cry about it in a report/use arm's length if you think it's coming. three (real) options there.

if you're somehow getting rescue killed nonstop by randos then you're an outlier and just unlucky. that or you make a lotta unique players mad for some reason.

if gettin rescued at your detriment once in a blue moon genuinely pisses you off, idk, take a break tbqh. it's kind of the smallest of deals.

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I use Rescue to pull individuals into things like Sacred Soil, Asylum, and Earthly Star (yes, there are still people that manage to miss that thing…), and I don’t consider that griefing. I’m actively trying to keep the person healed. It’s more griefing for them to stand so far out of range they miss all of the AOE heals the healers are throwing out, in my opinion.

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Hate to snip this post so much as I agreed with a lot of the other stuff mentioned, but the above situation, to me, is going a bit too far with rescue. By no means am I saying that I think it's griefing, I think it's just a bit too extra. If I have people outside my bubble, I'll normally only say something in chat if they're reeeally needing it (like if the party is hurting big time, eating all the mechs, etc). And if they still don't move in? Well they're either not reading chat or just being dense, so eh.

People who like to hang out in the boonies.....those seem to be a constant always. lol. I tend to take the same approach though. If they're sucking and needing a lot of healing but too far out for my AoE heals/shields, I might say something in chat if it's getting obnoxious. If they still don't move in, I'll still keep an eye on them and heal when I can, but they won't be my #1 priority. Not going to yoink em closer though. :3

As far as my own usage, I pretty much keep it to alliance raids only. If someone is on the wrong side of Hasbhrown's fire arm, those mechs with the spinning hands where you have to get to a circle, not hiding behind ice, etc. But yeah, if I think I can save em, I'll try...sometimes. :p There have definitely been times I've yoinked a dead body back to me. lol.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

I'm comparing rescue to other ways that other players have an impact on your enjoyment of the game. Rescue is not special in that regard and pretending that it is a special problem... lol

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A tank suddenly turning around right when a cleave buster comes out is griefing. Two stacks being stacked together will not only leave the whole party alive if they had sufficient health a majority of the time (hello e12, I get you almost daily), but a player can mitigate this by just... Walking away. I've done it a few times to keep myself alive when I knew that getting into the stack would be a death sentence.

The player still has their freedom of movement and can easily avoid that without losing uptime, I even think it can be engaging because it adds some necessity for a quick, unplanned reaction... And if it's dropping AOEs in melee range, even extra occasions to do that good feeling greeding stuff.

I digress a bit, but really, rescue aside, there is basically no way to mess with a conscious player's experience without outright griefing them. And if the player is very obviously a good player, why even cast rescue on them?

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Hate to snip this post so much as I agreed with a lot of the other stuff mentioned, but the above situation, to me, is going a bit too far with rescue. By no means am I saying that I think it's griefing, I think it's just a bit too extra. If I have people outside my bubble, I'll normally only say something in chat if they're reeeally needing it (like if the party is hurting big time, eating all the mechs, etc). And if they still don't move in? Well they're either not reading chat or just being dense, so eh.

People who like to hang out in the boonies.....those seem to be a constant always. lol. I tend to take the same approach though. If they're sucking and needing a lot of healing but too far out for my AoE heals/shields, I might say something in chat if it's getting obnoxious. If they still don't move in, I'll still keep an eye on them and heal when I can, but they won't be my #1 priority. Not going to yoink em closer though. :3

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I disagree, and here’s why.

For one, I play with a controller, so having to put down my controller to type in chat is generally not the first thing I do. Especially since people ignore chat half the time anyways.

Second, I’ve already tried the approach of “type in chat to tell people to move in” and they either ignore or just tell me to single-target them. I’m not going to deal with that, so now I choose to Rescue. I do it ONCE. If they move out, I leave them to their fate. If they die due to lack of heals and say something about it, I just respond that I tried to pull them closer so they received heals and they ran away and missed them all.

And this isn’t even something I do all the time. Honestly depends on my mood. If I’m in an aggressive healer sort of mood, I just let them die, raise, and say nothing unless they make a comment. They can deal with their bad decision. If I’m feeling more like I want to keep them alive, then I do the Rescue approach. Results are honestly mixed; some stay in the bubble and I’m guessing they realized what I was doing. Others just run away and I let them hit the floor if they refuse to move in and subsequently die.

I fail to see how this is any extra than moving someone to the safe side of an arena to avoid a cleave. Both are to save them from potentially dying, so they don’t really seem all that different to me.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I disagree, and here’s why.

For one, I play with a controller, so having to put down my controller to type in chat is generally not the first thing I do. Especially since people ignore chat half the time anyways.

Second, I’ve already tried the approach of “type in chat to tell people to move in” and they either ignore or just tell me to single-target them. I’m not going to deal with that, so now I choose to Rescue. I do it ONCE. If they move out, I leave them to their fate. If they die due to lack of heals and say something about it, I just respond that I tried to pull them closer so they received heals and they ran away and missed them all.

And this isn’t even something I do all the time. Honestly depends on my mood. If I’m in an aggressive healer sort of move, I just let them die and say nothing. They can deal with their bad decision. If I’m feeling more like I want to keep them alive, then I do the Rescue approach. Results are honestly mixed; some stay in the bubble and I’m guessing they realized what I was doing. Others just run away and I let them hit the floor if they refuse to move in.

I fail to see how this is any extra than moving someone to the safe side of an arena to avoid a cleave. Both are to save them from dying, so they don’t really seem all that different to me.

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Narnians choose their fate when they stay way out there, or move back out there after being rescued. Leave them to their self imposed fate(I don't even heal them directly if they keep running out there because an AoE heal was good enough for the rest of the party to be topped up).

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Narnians choose their fate when they stay way out there, or move back out there after being rescued. Leave them to their self imposed fate(I don't even heal them directly if they keep running out there because an AoE heal was good enough for the rest of the party to be topped up).

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As I said, I already do this regardless of if I choose to Rescue or not; and if they move away after a Rescue.

Have I been "rescued" out of Ten Chi Jin when a healer mistook my DPS greed for incaution? Yes.

However, on the few occasions when I've seen rescue used, I've never seen it used to grief in a PUG.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

Have I been "rescued" out of Ten Chi Jin when a healer mistook my DPS greed for incaution? Yes.

However, on the few occasions when I've seen rescue used, I've never seen it used to grief in a PUG.

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I have had it attempted on me once....but the healers were talking about it in party chat. Was during Ozma, I like to stand just off the edge of the platform in melee range(when Ozma goes pyramid mode you dodge the laser in that spot) and the healers said something about pulling me back, off the edge, towards the outer ring. Right as they both got behind me I popped Arms Length. Doesn't happen often(heck that was the first time someone tried to do something like that to me). The only other time I've had rescue used on me I did end up getting killed...because the healer didn't realize I was going to the other safe spot and ended up dragging me through the fire AoE on the second boss of Copied Factory.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

Have I been "rescued" out of Ten Chi Jin when a healer mistook my DPS greed for incaution? Yes..

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Do what I did. I knew the pug healer wasn't gonna see I was greeding, so I pressed Arm's Length to negate their Rescue and Shukuchi on time :P

It worked, I didn't die, probably got a very cross healer tho xD

I'd only do it if I knew what I was doing tho, so there's that disclaimer.

I'm of the mind that if a healer "rescues" me for no reason, especially if it's into an AoE, then that's the hill i'm destined to die on. Maybe that AST pulled a card that said i'll need to die for the rest of the team to live long and prosper, maybe they're just an asshat. I'm not gonna start stressing about it either way.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I disagree, and here’s why.

For one, I play with a controller, so having to put down my controller to type in chat is generally not the first thing I do. Especially since people ignore chat half the time anyways.

Second, I’ve already tried the approach of “type in chat to tell people to move in” and they either ignore or just tell me to single-target them. I’m not going to deal with that, so now I choose to Rescue. I do it ONCE. If they move out, I leave them to their fate. If they die due to lack of heals and say something about it, I just respond that I tried to pull them closer so they received heals and they ran away and missed them all.

And this isn’t even something I do all the time. Honestly depends on my mood. If I’m in an aggressive healer sort of mood, I just let them die, raise, and say nothing unless they make a comment. They can deal with their bad decision. If I’m feeling more like I want to keep them alive, then I do the Rescue approach. Results are honestly mixed; some stay in the bubble and I’m guessing they realized what I was doing. Others just run away and I let them hit the floor if they refuse to move in and subsequently die.

I fail to see how this is any extra than moving someone to the safe side of an arena to avoid a cleave. Both are to save them from potentially dying, so they don’t really seem all that different to me.

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I play on PC, so while it's still not the easiest to type during combat, I'd still prefer to say something quick in chat (if it's truly an issue) and let them fix it on their own vs. just doing it for them with no communication.

As to why I feel pulling them into a bubble is extra, as mentioned above, I typically only use it in alliance raids on moves that will kill the player. In my experience, standing in a bubble isn't going to be the determining factor for whether or not they die.

Unpopular opinion, but if we're gonna argue about whether Rescue needs to exist or not, why don't we just admit that it's a veiled way of saying "People need to get good"?

With how many warps and mobility windows we currently have, there's almost no real reason to have healers pull people. Especially since it only works on one specific person anyway, that person can just as well move on their own. And if it's to "save people from death", just get good.

Because all that'd be left then would be the instances where it's actual griefing.

"Oh but I saved the run by pulling one guy and resolved a mechanic", yeah no, you took it upon yourself to save the run. That person should take it upon themself to do the same by using their own kit. Benign effect, sure, but it was still not your responsability. That person should not be hand-held, they should learn to resolve the mechanic on their own. It's only good for them and future groups they feature in.

Probably a bad take, but sometimes people do need to be told to stop relying on others for stuff they can very well do on their own. It's rare that Rescue is ACTUALLY required.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

As to why I feel pulling them into a bubble is extra, as mentioned above, I typically only use it in alliance raids on moves that will kill the player. In my experience, standing in a bubble isn't going to be the determining factor for whether or not they die.

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I disagree. Running Orbonne Monastery during the current Moogle event, I drop Asylum during the mini-boss prior to TGC. When he does the three back to back raid wides (after his add portals you have to stand on and the two sets of 3 line AOEs), dropping an Asylum and having one other HoT is enough to keep the entire party alive during all three without any additional healing needed. Someone standing outside of the Asylum does not get those extra HoT ticks from it and will drop dead by the third one as a result. This is just one example that is fresh in my mind since I’ve ran Orbonne enough for several hundred tomes since the event started.

Likewise, Earthly Star’s Giant Dominance detonation is enough to heal players up so that a subsequent raidwide is survivable without having to use extra healing tools. You’d be surprised at how people manage to still miss the Earthly Galaxy, but it makes more difference than you’re suggesting. Sacred Soils mitigation + regen at level 78+ also makes a lot of difference when people stand under it. Enough so that I don’t have to waste an oGCD resource (or GCD) on them.

EDIT: Another example I thought of is during Diabolos Hollow’s ultimate attack. Did you know that if you don’t have at least one aspect of mitigation on it (a barrier, Reprisal, Addle, or something like Sacred Soil/Kerachole), people will die from it? Usually the casters, physical ranged, and healers, since they have less HP. I found this out during the last Moogle event when my alliance was double WHM and there was no use of Addle, Feint, or Reprisal on the boss. I was overkilled by 500, which is literally damage variance. Everyone in my party was full HP, so it wasn’t like the kill was a result of missing health. Something like Kerachole, Soil, or even a GCD shield would have kept me (and half my alliance) alive.

It was truly amusing to see, though. The stat squish did do wonders for making that raid actually hurt a little bit again.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Unpopular opinion, but if we're gonna argue about whether Rescue needs to exist or not, why don't we just admit that it's a veiled way of saying "People need to get good"?

With how many warps and mobility windows we currently have, there's almost no real reason to have healers pull people. Especially since it only works on one specific person anyway, that person can just as well move on their own. And if it's to "save people from death", just get good.

Because all that'd be left then would be the instances where it's actual griefing.

"Oh but I saved the run by pulling one guy and resolved a mechanic", yeah no, you took it upon yourself to save the run. That person should take it upon themself to do the same by using their own kit. Benign effect, sure, but it was still not your responsability. That person should not be hand-held, they should learn to resolve the mechanic on their own. It's only good for them and future groups they feature in.

Probably a bad take, but sometimes people do need to be told to stop relying on others for stuff they can very well do on their own. It's rare that Rescue is ACTUALLY required.

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Welcome to healers! We're the babysitters of the game.

You have yours leveled, so you probably know how dull runs can be as a healer when people run things perfectly. It's almost to the point where they could get rid of healers and just rework the other jobs to add more self-sustain and call it a day....assuming people were on top of things*.

But thankfully (?) we all like to make mistakes now and then, granted some people more often than others. If we're getting into the argument that people need to git gud and learn from their mistakes, to take it to the extreme, why should we bother healing them in the first place if they took avoidable damage? Obviously we should all strive towards self-improvement, and sometimes a lesson does stick best after a massive failure, but as a healer, our kit is there to try and keep things running smoothly. I know people love to claim that no one ever listens to a word said in party chat, but plenty of people do, and I'd recommend people giving that a shot now and then.

I do agree that it's rare that rescue is truly needed.



*I'm gonna assume healers still have a purpose for ultimates/savage/etc. :3

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Welcome to healers! We're the babysitters of the game.

You have yours leveled, so you probably know how dull runs can be as a healer when people run things perfectly. It's almost to the point where they could get rid of healers and just rework the other jobs to add more self-sustain and call it a day....assuming people were on top of things*.

But thankfully (?) we all like to make mistakes now and then, granted some people more often than others. If we're getting into the argument that people need to git gud and learn from their mistakes, to take it to the extreme, why should we bother healing them in the first place if they took avoidable damage? Obviously we should all strive towards self-improvement, and sometimes a lesson does stick best after a massive failure, but as a healer, our kit is there to try and keep things running smoothly. I know people love to claim that no one ever listens to a word said in party chat, but plenty of people do, and I'd recommend people giving that a shot now and then.

I do agree that it's rare that rescue is truly needed.

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Except what you're describing is the healer's own job description: to heal missing health and keeping people alive. If a stooge does land on The Bad™, then it's annoying but it's part of our job as a healer. It's literally the difference between us and DPS. Unfortunate effects, but that's why we're there.

We're NOT responsible for the person being hit in the first place, nor should we be made to be. You can argue that it's as much a healing tool as a shield tbh, you're preventing damage, but it's already been proven to be incredibly intrusive whereas shields are not. And worse, similar stuff exists in other peoples' kit, such as Second Wind and personal shields, but they don't deny our existence. Only cover for one singular hit. The use of rescue, on the other hand, negates there needing to be mobility tools. After all, why bother having Shukuchi or Aetherial Manip if you can just nag the healer to adjust for you?

That isn't a logic extreme you can extrapolate out of what I said, you're conflating two ideas and snowballing out of it based only on the idea that we're there to babysit.

You're only there to babysit as much as you want, because it's not up to you to rescue every single person and know exactly when it's okay or not to pull them. You are there to be a healer when required and deal damage when not. Other people should pull their weight just as much as you do. If I wanted to babysit, I'd start charging for it.

Otherwise, yeah, it's a double standard. We're not responsible for people doing well and keeping themselves alive. There's a limit to what we do when faced with what other people can do. If a tank can use cooldowns, why the hell do I have to go out of my way and strain myself for someone who doesn't want to meet me halfway? Just use cooldowns, move out of the bad. Accidents happen, and those are stuff I can understand... but they shoudl not be on me for failing to pull you away from those accidents.

Keep in mind also that you're only saying that, that it's a part of our job as healers to do so, simply because Rescue exists. Prior to SB, this mindset did not exist. It was created only bc of the skill itself, concentrating responsability on the healer and making people forget that no, it's not our job to save a guy from going to the red puddle. They should know better, that's part of the game.

Though I guess I feel this way because I'm angry at what happened to me in savage before. Being told that the whole group needed to adjust around one person that refused to learn the game and improve as to not be a detriment to the group. And would then throw a tantrum when called out on it. It isn't our job to bend over backwards for someone who doesn't want to meet us halfway. Which hurt doubly so when I did my best to overcome my own physical health to play with my groups, finding tricks and roundabout ways to handle situations, only to then see someone not do the same and have everyone adjust to her alone. It just isn't fair to 7 other people; one thing is "I struggle with this", another thing is "I won't even try".

I don't think Rescue is griefing, but it does remove agency from people and excuses something that really just shouldn't be excused. And when used incorrectly, it can be quite bitter.

I just hate healers yanking me out of safe spots on crystal tower or into pits like on Dohn Mheg because they think it's funny. Give me a way to turn it off like other games like Dota do.

Hey healing is boring enough as is let healers have their once every 2 min for the memes button. Think of the healers.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

I just hate healers yanking me out of safe spots on crystal tower or into pits like on Dohn Mheg because they think it's funny. Give me a way to turn it off like other games like Dota do.

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That can be reported as harassment. Maybe they'd think twice about doing it to a random stranger if they had to sit out the game for 7-10 days.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

That can be reported as harassment. Maybe they'd think twice about doing it to a random stranger if they had to sit out the game for 7-10 days.

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Legit how would a report like that work? Couldn’t the healer just say it was a miss click or fat finger? Seems like murky grounds to punish someone for something they cannot prove was done with malicious intent.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Keep in mind also that you're only saying that, that it's a part of our job as healers to do so, simply because Rescue exists. Prior to SB, this mindset did not exist. It was created only bc of the skill itself, concentrating responsability on the healer and making people forget that no, it's not our job to save a guy from going to the red puddle. They should know better, that's part of the game.

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I mean, true, yes, but I feel like saying "people only believe they should use this tool because the tool exists; before the tool existed, people didn't think it was their responsibility to press that button in combat" is a tiny bit reductive. I mean, by that standard, I didn't think it was my responsibility as a white mage to put down the lilybell in endgame content back in Shadowbringers; I only think I should put it down before repeated damage now because it exists to be put down!

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Except what you're describing is the healer's own job description: to heal missing health and keeping people alive.

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The part I bolded is the key issue, I think; many people look at "this person will die if I don't Rescue them" and consider it part of that "my responsibility is to keep people alive". I think that's the main point of disagreement, basically.

But, rather than Yet More Arguing[tm] about whether or not Rescue should be removed... I'd like to ask those who hate Rescue whether they would similarly hate the hypothetical alternative I proposed earlier in the thread.

E.g., instead of Rescue moving someone, the person it is used on gets a short buff -- let's call it "Ruin Denied" or "Salvation", and make it 10s.

If, while they have that buff, they drop below 1 hitpoint (e.g. would die) -- and heck, let's include 'falling off the arena' in this -- they are instead left alive with 1 hitpoint and slingshotted to where the healer who offered Salvation is. Let's say this also functionally works like a teleport; they don't fall into a pit if they zip over it. They are also given the more severe rez weakness debuff (to avoid it being deliberately used to cheese mechanics without consequence, as "second Holmgang" or something), but they can also be given a couple of seconds of the "Transcendent" invulnerability you get immediately post-rez.

If they had a plan to move to safety and do so, hey, the buff drops off after 10s and nothing happens. No harm, no foul, the player is not repositioned.

If the buff does fire and move them to the healer's side... that would've happened anyway, because the buff only fires if you would have otherwise died. So you would've ended up where the healer is regardless, because that's how rez works: you appear at the spot where the healer was standing when they rezzed you.

"Salvation" is basically just skipping the 2400 MP and 8 second cast time portion of the process.

Obviously, it wouldn't work in situations where Rescue could let you position someone for a mechanic, and wouldn't let you yoink someone out of LB3 animation lock without consequence (e.g. the Brink of Death rez debuff). Though you could at least prevent the person in LB3 animation lock from dying.

Still, it would work for a great many of the scenarios where Rescue is used to try to save someone... and it would at least give healers a way to attempt to not have to spend 2400 MP and potentially 8 seconds of cast time (or Swiftcast) to get someone back up.

And by virtue of it being a proc off of a status effect, it would be considerably more reliable than Rescue is.

(Moreover, watching someone plummet to their death in Aglaia only to have them bungee back up and rocket over to the healer when Salvation procced would be at least a little hilarious to see.)

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

But, rather than Yet More Arguing[tm] about whether or not Rescue should be removed... I'd like to ask those who hate Rescue whether they would similarly hate the hypothetical alternative I proposed earlier in the thread.

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In my opinion as long as it is better than death and does not remove agency from the player when they're alive and kicking (even if their death is one clipping away), it's preferable over current rescue. What you propose if I understood correctly, only triggers when the player would've straight up died. The biggest gripe people seem to have with rescue is when they get rescued when they actually have a clue and the rescue ends up just being disruptive. Your idea isn't disruptive at all when the alternative is just death.

I think the alternative proposed by Midareyukki and my comparison to Thresh's lantern would even be preferable because it's more interactive for the DPS as they'd get to time when to be yoinked.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

But, rather than Yet More Arguing[tm] about whether or not Rescue should be removed... I'd like to ask those who hate Rescue whether they would similarly hate the hypothetical alternative I proposed earlier in the thread.

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This is just a more convoluted version of Rez on a 2 minute cooldown when healers already have that on a 1 minute cooldown with swiftcast + rez. It would either be broken balance wise or be so situational it would be unused.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

In my opinion as long as it is better than death and does not remove agency from the player when they're alive and kicking (even if their death is one clipping away), it's preferable over current rescue. What you propose if I understood correctly, only triggers when the player would've straight up died.

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Correct; the hypothetical "Salvation" buff would only proc if you dropped below 1 HP (e.g. would have died). Even if you got clipped and got a vuln/damage down, if you wouldn't have died, Salvation wouldn't proc.

Because honestly, healing in this game has enough potency that unless you've collected vuln stacks like you're trying to complete a pokedex, one vuln stack is not generally a huge hassle for me. (And if it gets to the point that you have enough vuln stacks that every raidwide becomes a one-shot... well, there's always the Nuclear Esuna; for the low price of 2400 MP, I can convert all of your debuffs into one single Weakness!)

The big inconvenience to a healer is having to slow-rez someone... especially if there's other damage happening. (As one of my static says, "Tend to the living!") It's a honking great pile of MP -- a quarter of your full bar -- and a painfully long cast time. Rescue lets me avoid that, but it's hardly a perfect tool. Or, really, even a good one. Unfortunately what it is, at present, is the only tool to avoid having to rez someone in certain situations.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

I think the alternative proposed by Midareyukki and my comparison to Thresh's lantern would even be preferable because it's more interactive for the DPS as they'd get to time when to be yoinked.

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It's a cool idea, but...

Rescue's timing is janky enough even when we do get it off early enough; given the way this game works, and the reality of server ticks, I cannot see Thresh's Lantern being a viable option. You'd need the healer to drop the item within reach of the DPS, and then the DPS to click it to use it in time. Even if it was just applying a buff and putting something on, say, Duty Action II which zips you to the healer a'la Aetherial Manipulation -- a lot more likely to be survivable -- that's still got more round-trip traffic to/from the server than Rescue would.

With Rescue, I use it and the server processes it, and moves the character. With the Lantern -- even if it were a buff and a Duty Action, you need the healer to put it on the person, the person's client to receive that the buff was applied (and make the Duty Action available), and then when the person wants to use it, it needs to tell the server they've used that action...

Sure, it would work sometimes. I just think it would be even more janky and unreliable than Rescue timing-wise, unless that Lantern had a fairly long lifetime. Which probably would work, but if you could apply it ten seconds ahead of time and it allowed movement without consequence, I also would be willing to lay solid odds on a bet that the Lantern would almost immediately be cheesed six ways to Tuesday for uptime in savage.

Conversely, "Salvation" can't be cheesed (at least, not without consequence), and by virtue of it being a buff that procs, the proc is handled on the server side at the same time damage is applied, making it considerably more reliable than Rescue has ever been (or ever will be).

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

This is just a more convoluted version of Rez on a 2 minute cooldown when healers already have that on a 1 minute cooldown with swiftcast + rez. It would either be broken balance wise or be so situational it would be unused.

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If I see a sprout not behind the ice in Syrcus Tower, right now my options are either "Rescue them to safety", "mentally budget 2400 MP and Swiftcast to rez them", or "just let them die and stay on the floor". If more than one sprout has died to a mechanic, I don't even have the option of Swiftcast, so if they die it's 2400 MP and an extremely lengthy cast time... or leaving the sprout on the floor until I have Swift again, which is certainly no fun for the sprout.

The idea behind Salvation is that it's a way the healer does not need to spend 2400 MP, and the person gets to stay in the fight (rather than having to sit on the floor and watch) -- and the temporary Transcendent buff (a'la a rez) means you have a chance to top someone up before they die to damage immediately afterwards. (Assuming they don't immediately sprint and cancel the Transcendent buff, but that never happens post-rez...)

Still, it's hardly the only possible replacement for Rescue. Heck, it's not even the only replacement that I've suggested on these forums. You could have it be that if someone dies with Salvation on them, it just makes Raise on them an instant-cast that costs half the MP, or something.

My point is that it's more likely to be productive -- and less likely to be a whole bunch of name-calling, finger-pointing, and general argument -- if the situation is approached not as "Rescue is bad and healers should have it taken away" but rather as "Rescue is a broken tool, what would be a better tool to give healers instead of Rescue."

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

If I see a sprout not behind the ice in Syrcus Tower, right now my options are either "Rescue them to safety", "mentally budget 2400 MP and Swiftcast to rez them", or "just let them die and stay on the floor". If more than one sprout has died to a mechanic, I don't even have the option of Swiftcast, so if they die it's 2400 MP and an extremely lengthy cast time... or leaving the sprout on the floor until I have Swift again, which is certainly no fun for the sprout.

The idea behind Salvation is that it's a way the healer does not need to spend 2400 MP, and the person gets to stay in the fight (rather than having to sit on the floor and watch) -- and the temporary Transcendent buff (a'la a rez) means you have a chance to top someone up before they die to damage immediately afterwards. (Assuming they don't immediately sprint and cancel the Transcendent buff, but that never happens post-rez...)

Still, it's hardly the only possible replacement for Rescue. Heck, it's not even the only replacement that I've suggested on these forums. You could have it be that if someone dies with Salvation on them, it just makes Raise on them an instant-cast that costs half the MP, or something.

My point is that it's more likely to be productive -- and less likely to be a whole bunch of name-calling, finger-pointing, and general argument -- if the situation is approached not as "Rescue is bad and healers should have it taken away" but rather as "Rescue is a broken tool, what would be a better tool to give healers instead of Rescue."

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You use Rez on them with swiftcast and let your cohealer do the same.
Giving so many tools like this as I said before will either have them be entirely redundant, since 2400 mana is absolutely nothing on healers, or it will be wildly broken and absolutely break the balance on savage.
The solution is to take the tool out of the game that's used for widespread trolling like people in this thread admit to using it for, or rework it so that it can't be abused. It has minimal use other than yanking a sprout here or there, and causes more grief than good 99% of the time. People need to just learn to stop trying to control other people and trying to make them play the way they want.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

The solution is to take the tool out of the game that's used for widespread trolling like people in this thread admit to using it for, or rework it so that it can't be abused.

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Exactly. *gestures towards previous suggestions of how to replace/rework Rescue with something that cannot be abused*

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Exactly. *gestures towards previous suggestions of how to replace/rework Rescue with something that cannot be abused*

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Alright man if you're not going to read what I say then I think we're done.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Hate to snip this post so much as I agreed with a lot of the other stuff mentioned, but the above situation, to me, is going a bit too far with rescue. By no means am I saying that I think it's griefing, I think it's just a bit too extra. If I have people outside my bubble, I'll normally only say something in chat if they're reeeally needing it (like if the party is hurting big time, eating all the mechs, etc). And if they still don't move in? Well they're either not reading chat or just being dense, so eh.

People who like to hang out in the boonies.....those seem to be a constant always. lol. I tend to take the same approach though. If they're sucking and needing a lot of healing but too far out for my AoE heals/shields, I might say something in chat if it's getting obnoxious. If they still don't move in, I'll still keep an eye on them and heal when I can, but they won't be my #1 priority. Not going to yoink em closer though. :3

As far as my own usage, I pretty much keep it to alliance raids only. If someone is on the wrong side of Hasbhrown's fire arm, those mechs with the spinning hands where you have to get to a circle, not hiding behind ice, etc. But yeah, if I think I can save em, I'll try...sometimes. :p There have definitely been times I've yoinked a dead body back to me. lol.

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I don't even worry about saying something in chat. My bubble is there. I'll trust that the others have their big kid pants on and know to get into it. I won't chase them around the arena but I don't have any issues popping them a pity Regen as they run by or a lily if it's not reserved for something else. I can meme with fellow healers about those Narnians who stand outside it, but it doesn't offend me or affect whether I'll keep them alive in other ways if they aren't in it.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

instead of Rescue moving someone, the person it is used on gets a short buff -- let's call it "Ruin Denied" or "Salvation", and make it 10s.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

wouldn't let you yoink someone out of LB3 animation lock without consequence (e.g. the Brink of Death rez debuff). Though you could at least prevent the person in LB3 animation lock from dying.

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ok I forgot cancelling the animation lock from LB3 is a thing ._. And I love doing it.
Question is whether or not such a design makes up for losing tricks like those.

I never said that Rescue was evil or anything, so I'm not arguing about whether it should be removed or not. I'm just pointing out that it excuses poor behaviour in a lot of the situations where it's used. As a healer, you can't expect everyone to do things flawlessly, but as a DPS you can't expect the healer to only cater to you. It's a give-and-take sort of thing. But if you ignore that, then the problem still stands: Rescue is oddly designed.

The problem seems to simply be the lack of agency over Rescue. It's a tool that cancels a lot of skills, has an animation lock and it counts as a knockback. It makes it easy to be used to troll people. Cancelling TCJ or stuff like Aglaia where people use it to troll the Nald'thal balance sequence are but a few examples.

Thresh's Lantern is a good comparison for a way to fix it, but it does remove the healer's aspect of being able to clutch-save people from certain death, thereby preserving a run if it's that dire. People would need to react on time or be aware that they are doing stuff poorly to accept the teleport. A buff like that would really be no different.

But unfortunately it does seem like a "can't have your cake and eat it too" scenario; we can't ask for it to be changed to be less invasive without giving up on some of the factors that make it truly useful. Death to a mechanic to proc Salvation will still consume time, and Rescue can be used to save time. And to get into VerdeLuck's comment, they're right in that it'd be hard to balance given a healer's kit. If on a longer cooldown than a raise, it'd defy the purpose of having it, you'd rarely ever use it. If not, it could replace Raise spells with no consequence, which is what the job design team tries to avoid (to varying effect...).

So it really depends now: what do people want to give up so there's a higher sense of agency\less intrusion on your gameplay experience?

Because we have valid ideas to replace Rescue, but all of them come with the caveat of giving up part of Rescue's benefits as an improvement.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Exactly. *gestures towards previous suggestions of how to replace/rework Rescue with something that cannot be abused*

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While certainly something we'd all accept... question is what can be done to prevent abuse? ^^;; That's the rub, stuff can be abused in roundabout ways.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

(Moreover, watching someone plummet to their death in Aglaia only to have them bungee back up and rocket over to the healer when Salvation procced would be at least a little hilarious to see.)

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Aye.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

ok I forgot cancelling the animation lock from LB3 is a thing ._. And I love doing it.

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Honestly I suspect if I were to tally Rescue uses, I've used it far more during prog to rescue my co-healer out of animation lock more times than I've used it anywhere else. (And probably it's been used on me by my co-healer in such a scenario more than it's been used on me anywhere else.)

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Thresh's Lantern is a good comparison for a way to fix it, but it does remove the healer's aspect of being able to clutch-save people from certain death, thereby preserving a run if it's that dire. People would need to react on time or be aware that they are doing stuff poorly to accept the teleport. A buff like that would really be no different.

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Honestly, the main difference between the Lantern and the proc'ing buff is that I do not trust this game's netcode to make the Lantern option viable, whereas the buff proc happening entirely server-side means it (should) be more reliable. Other than that, it's a neat idea! I just...

I have trust issues where this game's networking is concerned.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

And to get into VerdeLuck's comment, they're right in that it'd be hard to balance given a healer's kit. If on a longer cooldown than a raise, it'd defy the purpose of having it, you'd rarely ever use it. If not, it could replace Raise spells with no consequence, which is what the job design team tries to avoid (to varying effect...).

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I mean, I'd argue you can already get around the swift rez limits if you've got a red mage in your party (which is the main reason I don't think of the Salvation option being a hugely unbalancing factor).

But yeah, I'm not particularly set on the idea of the Salvation buff specifically; it's more an example of what I meant in suggesting that it's probably more productive -- or at least, likely to be less combative -- to come up with tools that could replace Rescue. (And hopefully suffer from less sheer, unmitigated jank than Rescue does.)

Because most healers I know don't actually like Rescue; we just recognize it's the only option we have sometimes to save someone. A better, less-broken (and divisive) tool would be a welcome change; come up with something better (and viable in this game's systems), and I suspect most healers will be right there alongside those who hate Rescue, clamoring for it to be removed and replaced with the better option.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Because most healers I know don't actually like Rescue; we just recognize it's the only option we have sometimes to save someone. A better, less-broken (and divisive) tool would be a welcome change; come up with something better (and viable in this game's systems), and I suspect most healers will be right there alongside those who hate Rescue, clamoring for it to be removed and replaced with the better option.

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I don't like it either. I do recognize when it's used for good, but can't deny that it's also noticeably used for bad. But that isn't why I dislike it. Nor is it that I find its inclusion in the game shirks responsability about proper play.
No, as you yourself put it, the reason I dislike it is:

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I have trust issues where this game's networking is concerned.

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@w@ timing this game sometimes feel like playing minesweeper

But yeah. You are correct, of course.

Though, on the RDM thing, I mostly just tell RDMs in my party to save raises for the healers alone or in the instances where healers can't afford to raise. Because, sure, it's a waste of MP for me, but apart from being a waste for the RDM, their job is to do damage and that raise takes far too much a toll for them to use it willy-nilly. I value them as last resorts. Hence why I generally don't rely or mention them. The analogy is right, it just doesn't sit well with me out of habit. Rescue or Salvation can't really be compared to RDM\SMN due to the impact those two have when raising. Their inclusion in a fight doesn't stop anyone from f*cking up and dying to The Bad™ either, meaning someone will still waste MP for a raise and someone will still have a debuff xD so in terms of balancing, they're more like when the tank uses a cooldown to mitigate damage. They're there to help, but don't negate the content entirely, the process is still the same. Thus it's easier to balance that.

As I said though. If we're to get a better option, we need to brace ourselves because tricks that were once possible may no longer apply.

It should be optional whether it affects your character or not. I'd rather die to mechanics when I mess up then have to worry about griefers.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

Rescue has 3 problems though that are hard to fix:
- Players do not like losing control. Especialy since in this game ability rotations can be very strict. Missing 1 ability can on that disrupt your dps for a while and on that feel very punishing. And even more since you could not control it. You just randomly get pulled. (especialy when your class can just dash out of the AoE)
- Most of the time its more efficient to take the damage, than to interupt a combo. 2 healer GCDs are more efficeint in preserving DPS, compared to wasting just 1 DPS GCD. Only if a DPS would die a rescue would be more efficient. This makes it excessively niche
- Its obsolete in expert content, since any mispositioning is already a problem there. You should never rely on any rescue taking place. A healer can just remove it from any hotbar as it only wastes space.

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-It's delayed, so you have to assume ahead of time that someone is in danger, so it's almost obsolete for attacks with quick telegraphs.
-It can't be used on people that are DCing (but they can still take damage).

I've never been a fan of Rescue. I just don't like the idea of one player being able to forcibly move another, unless we're talking PvP or something. It's like reaching across the internet and virtually putting your hands on their keyboard. There is something to be said for giving someone the right to fail. It's how we learn.

Okay, I concede that if you don't Rescue somebody out of the AoE and they die, then now you have to spend your Swiftcast cooldown and a bunch of MP to revive them. It may be more efficient to press a magic button that prevents unfortunate results before they happen. But the way I see it, players dying because they did a bad is the cost of doing business as a healer. It's the cost of players failing mechanics, and while that adds stress on the healers and the group overall, that's all rolled into the intended challenge of the content design.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

instead of Rescue moving someone, the person it is used on gets a short buff -- let's call it "Ruin Denied" or "Salvation", and make it 10s.

If, while they have that buff, they drop below 1 hitpoint (e.g. would die) -- and heck, let's include 'falling off the arena' in this -- they are instead left alive with 1 hitpoint and slingshotted to where the healer who offered Salvation is. Let's say this also functionally works like a teleport; they don't fall into a pit if they zip over it. They are also given the more severe rez weakness debuff (to avoid it being deliberately used to cheese mechanics without consequence, as "second Holmgang" or something), but they can also be given a couple of seconds of the "Transcendent" invulnerability you get immediately post-rez.

If they had a plan to move to safety and do so, hey, the buff drops off after 10s and nothing happens. No harm, no foul, the player is not repositioned.

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Well, it's certainly an improvement over the default Rescue, and it seems to prevent griefing/abuse. 10 seconds is a long time, you could probably cut it down to 5. I would wonder if players would start using this on Tanks and causing bigger problems, like it causes the boss to suddenly swerve around and hit the entire rest of the party with a cleave attack. I guess that's still gonna happen if the tank's dead, though.

I guess this fix would be okay..? But if they get the temporary Transcendence invulnerability anyway, do we still need the teleport anymore?

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

But, rather than Yet More Arguing[tm] about whether or not Rescue should be removed... I'd like to ask those who hate Rescue whether they would similarly hate the hypothetical alternative I proposed earlier in the thread.

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I think this version would be cool and I don't imagine anyone would complain about it. It saves those who would die and doesn't do anything to those who wouldn't, and it's not abusable.
Maybe a bit OP? I don't know.
As long as people still learn from the mistake, cause if mechanics happen - people stay in it - still survive, they might think they did nothing wrong.
Also as Fyrebrand said, why the teleport if they've already been saved?

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

There is something to be said for giving someone the right to fail. It's how we learn.

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I think that’s where the disconnect happens, though. If someone saw a player take avoidable damage and now they’re going to die to the next raidwide, a healer saying “I’m just giving them the right to fail; if I heal them up they’ll never learn.” we would, most likely, think they are a bad healer.

(And yes, I’ve met healers who refuse to heal avoidable damage on those grounds; they’re hardly the majority, but they exist.)

Yet seeing someone stand in the bad and letting them die is presented as preferable, versus pulling them to safety.

And I would argue that the reason folks feel that way is not “death will help them learn”; it’s a justification, but if it were the real reason, more folks would think spot-healing avoidable damage is “coddling” players and “erasing their mistakes for them”. Or that using Esuna to cleanse the Doom-esque debuff in the first boss of the Dead Ends—the one you get if the Yuck Puddles clip you—is denying the player a learning experience.

No, I suspect the real reason is that almost no one likes losing control of their character. Being stunned, paralyzed, getting the hysteria debuff… heck, I know people who get angry at the confusion debuff with the spinning pointer over your head that changes the direction you run, as in Rabanastre or Vanaspati.

That Rescue removes control and is triggered by another player just gives a target for that frustration and ire.

Add to that the fact that while I don’t see Rescue misused often—though as the healer in like 60% of whatever I run, my sample size may be skewed given that I would have to be the one abusing Rescue—it certainly can be on a technical level. And even when used correctly, it’s janky as heck.

But still...

“DPS stood in the bad? Well, they exercised the right to fail, I guess! And I already rezzed someone, so they can sit on the floor and think about this teachable moment until Swift is back off cooldown in 20 seconds.” might seem the better alternative to Rescue in many people’s minds, sure. But if someone hits the person with Krasis and a Eukrasian Diagnosis that covers half their hitbar and thus saves them from death... isn't that also denying them the chance to fail? Does that mean that shielding them against that damage is—just like repositioning them—denying them the learning experience?

And I suspect as soon as that hit doesn’t kill them, folks are less keen on a healer going “Oh, took enough avoidable damage you won’t survive the raid-wide? No, I’m not dropping what I’m doing and wasting a separate healing resource just on you to fix your boo-boo; you exercised the choice to fail, now you can lay on the floor for a bit until the lesson sinks in (and I’ve got Swiftcast back).” That's not a teachable moment, that's just being a jerk.

I mean, maybe you don’t top them off in time between avoidable damage and the raidwide, because you had to whole party to top off and didn't get that chance to throw an extra individual heal their way... and so they die anyway. But even so it feels like, as a healer, I should at least try. Sometimes you have to triage if things have gone off the rails... but if you have the time, and the healing resource, shouldn't you throw it at the player so the raidwide doesn't flatten them?

Having some method to save someone in the “you are standing where you will die” scenario seems, to me, fundamentally little different than that spot heal to try to top them off from avoidable damage before the unavoidable raidwide; in both cases, you see the impending death and can try to stop it. It would just be nice if the method or tool to do so in the "standing in bad" case wasn't one that causes resentment, or at best disorientation. (Not to mention if it worked reliably enough that you might not just be lassoing an unconscious limp body to drag it to you too late to save them.)

So, y'know, a tool other than what we've got.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

But if they get the temporary Transcendence invulnerability anyway, do we still need the teleport anymore?

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If the effect is meant to work for saving people from being yeeted off platforms by knockbacks or having the floor vanish from beneath them, yeah; Transcendent doesn’t protect against gravity. (Or, for that matter, death walls. Witness using healer LB3 when folks have been ejected into the sewer water border of P2S or the spikes of P4S phase 1; they get rezzed, with Transcendent… and immediately die again to the death wall they’re standing in.)

But again, Salvation is just one possible example of a replacement. Not even necessarily a great one, as it’s literally something tossed together as an idea over a lunch break; there are almost certainly better designs out there to be discovered and proposed. This one just has the benefit of being very simple, thus an approachable example/starting place for discussion.

Read a little through the responses, the ideas you bring are generally not bad, but to me personally it simply can't replace Rescue. As much as it carries the stigma of "you can troll with this", it has given me a lot of flexibility regarding movement when paired with my Co-Healer.

Example: Titan (Savage) has you spreading on 8 tiles (yellow marker) and follows up with expanding tile AOEs, with the safespots being diagonally opposite corners. The way I learned it to set up for the stack was to do the mechanic up north.

To save my co-healer movement and vice versa, we used Rescue to pull each other to the respective safespot (we each stood on one of those tiles). In Omega raids there were plenty ways to utilise Rescue for better uptime management as well.

In my opinion, the fear of trolling does not outweigh the benefits of Rescue and as I said before, if you remove Rescue we will just find new ways to troll. I've dropped a tankbuster on DPS many a times (it was a friend though) with Shirk for instance or dropped AOEs on BLMs. No "rescue consent" will stop this either.