"Play XIV if(cont)" and"you have a responsibility to" are not statements that coexist

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Originally Posted by Awha

That is the thing I think most people have the standard due to the dated mindset SE has towards parsing. If that is your metric cool I strongly disagree that clearing the content should be the defining metric. Personally the idea of getting carried does rub me the wrong way. Also it has nothing to be with extremes for me being rude is not toxic I know for others it is though in my eyes they are not synonymous to be toxic

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You keep using that word, dated, but I don't think you've established why SE's mindset is dated. It may be too extreme to your liking, but that alone doesn't make it dated, especially when there is also support for such a mindset in the community.

But in a way, you're right that the game does (and I would say should) influence the standard by which the players judge others. If a game does not provide an official damage parsing, then the players should not be using that as a metric unless the content itself enforces it, such as via enrage mechanic.

That said, the game allows for creating your own party, and there is a certain freedom there where you can set your own standard to a degree that may go beyond the game's own. But if a party doesn't care, then it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Toxic generally in my view has been watered down as time went on. It appears now for some the mere perception of rudeness is a enough to be seen as toxic.

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Though overall a rude person is not necessarily a toxic person or will be a toxic person. Telling someone to never queue for content again because they were a legit waste of space in my eyes is the better option instead of saying nothing and letting that person go on to think they did a good job. That is how I got into hardcore raiding back in WoW. I was a player that operated on the mindset I cleared the content so I am good. Until I got called out for being a dog shit player and was told to kill myself or as they put it go die in a cancer fire. The persons comments did hurt but it also got me thinking why did they say such things what could I have done to cause someone to get that upset. So I asked around looked up guides and damn I was playing my class all wrong. This was an eye opener, I went all that time thinking I was playing fine cause I cleared content.

To me being blunt like that is one of the nicer actions a gamer could do. Cause they did not have to say anything and if they had who knows how long I would have kept going on like that being carried by groups wasting the time of others because of my own ignorance.

Guess in the end I think people just need to get some thicker skin if they think being rude is toxic or a degree of toxic.

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Being toxic is generally associated with being harmful, and being rude is generally considered socially harmful. Being around a rude person is not a pleasant experience for most people. That environment becomes toxic if left unchecked.

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End of the day a factual statement should not be seen as toxic sure the tone itself could be seen as rude but that does not negate what was said or better yet should not negate what was said.

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It's not about negating any factual statement. It is about factual statement not negating toxic behavior/comment.

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In this game if you point out to someone that they have room to improve or mention how low their damage is compared to other players with similar gear and job especially after a clear outside of a static many will say it does not matter cause the content was cleared. Even on the forums like in that talea of the duty finder or in NN you will see people defend poor play by coming up with a bunch of reasons as to why someone may be playing poorly.

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In this case, both are factual statements. Fact: people have room to improve. Also fact: they can still clear content without improving.

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This is one aspect I enjoy in other games the reason behind why someone is playing poorly is irrelevant to many, fact remains they were playing like dog shit and success probably would have been still been possible if the person was dead on the floor. Though I agree it is a problem with fight design and part of the reason I rarely pug. I get I have that competitive nature that does not mesh well with the causal player base and I get SE designed normal and
EX to a degree in terms of E
encounters to be cleared by the largest number of possible players.

I do wish they made the game harder across the board I would kill for mythic + style content in FFXIV.

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I can understand if you're frustrated about this, but this game is what it is. In the extreme case, even the contents that should've encouraged improvement have been dealt with by groups who sell clears for those who really want it without improving on their play.

I've already said this in an earlier post but: parser data is not needed in the majority of the content in this game. Hell, even EX content doesn't really need the data.

Tying in so much of my hatred of healer and encounter design in this game: you know someone messed up in content because they die or wipe the group. There's very little in the high end that can effectively be carried (outside of being outgeared).

One of the reasons people feel fear of carries, imho, is how prevalent they are on WoW. A good healer and solid dps can carry several people, who are otherwise dead weight, below mythic. FFXIV has too many one shot mechanics and not enough sustain damage to pull that off (not here to debate these, but as the topic of WoW and carries had come up, I thought I would mention as someone who used to sell runs in WoW).

So that data isn't really useful unless you're specifically progressing content in your static or for personal use. It's very easy to understand what your party members are doing wrong.. just by looking at them. Hell, most jobs have buffs to maintain and you can track them on the party list. Also when party buffs go out of sync. Also when you see visual ques fall off players.. lots and lots of data already available to us in the game :)

I do not think being around assholes is inherently harmful or will turn toxic. Granted I play classic WoW so playing with assholes is enjoyment for me. For some it may seem unpleasant experience for me it brings me great joy. Though reason I say SE approach is dated is because they are operating on the concept scorched Earth mindset is the only way to go about things. They have this weird approach when it comes to their stance on combating what they view as toxic or inappropriate behavior. Be it PvP chat, rmt and not letting people friend alts, or lack of parsing because people will abuse it. This mindset of letting the few bad apples ruin it for everyone is dated in my opinion. They should just punish as the reports come in, instead of whelp sorry people suck so you cannot have nice things.

In end I get this is the game and that is part of the reason I maintain subs to many games. With that being said though I still think it is fair to not like the general direction the community has towards player accountability. Sure we do not need a parse to see someone is dead weight but at times it is just quicker and easier to just show someone how much they suck in that moment. Sure one can explain why. Though in the end as stated this is why I mostly play with friends cause personally I have ran into far too many players that are perfectly fine with we cleared it is okay that it just does not mesh with me personally. It is a different story if they are trying and are willing to improve. It is just other cases that rub me the wrong way.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I do not think being around assholes is inherently harmful or will turn toxic. Granted I play classic WoW so playing with assholes is enjoyment for me. For some it may seem unpleasant experience for me it brings me great joy. Though reason I say SE approach is dated is because they are operating on the concept scorched Earth mindset is the only way to go about things. They have this weird approach when it comes to their stance on combating what they view as toxic or inappropriate behavior. Be it PvP chat, rmt and not letting people friend alts, or lack of parsing because people will abuse it. This mindset of letting the few bad apples ruin it for everyone is dated in my opinion. They should just punish as the reports come in, instead of whelp sorry people suck so you cannot have nice things.

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Well, I think that's the point. Toxic behavior creates a toxic environment, so a few "bad apples" will indeed ruin it for the rest as they become contaminated. Thus, a "scorched earth" policy might be needed.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

One of the reasons people feel fear of carries, imho, is how prevalent they are on WoW. A good healer and solid dps can carry several people, who are otherwise dead weight, below mythic. FFXIV has too many one shot mechanics and not enough sustain damage to pull that off (not here to debate these, but as the topic of WoW and carries had come up, I thought I would mention as someone who used to sell runs in WoW).

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You are certainly correct that this game has far more one shot mechanics than WoW does. Not only that but often in this game things that don't kill you do punish you with a vuln debuff which means the next mistake could kill you, or a damage down that decreases your dps. I was quite surprised by this when I first started playing because I was so used to seeing mechanics like that almost only in the hardest content in the WoW. Whereas in FFXIV it's normal to see them everywhere.

As a healer I have found that I need to carry people far less often in FFXIV than I did in WoW. Because individual mechanics can be quite punishing if you don't dodge people are more careful. Whereas in WoW quite often I was expected to heal a dps standing in fire even if they only needed to take one step to get out. Sure what did it matter to them if they didn't die? They didn't get one shot and got no damage down or vuln stacks. This didn't always end well for them though because if I had to prioritise the tank or myself they sometimes died.

I'm not saying healing is easier or harder in either game, it's just different. WoW has far less one shot mechanics but it has significantly more sustained damage periods often with cleansing required whereas FFXIV's damage is very bursty and high but rarely needs frequent cleansing. However FFXIV's very bursty high damage paired with the risk of vuln and/or damage down stacks means players are naturally more careful about where they stand. No one wants to die, and no one likes getting a damage down.

And really I think people should accept the fact that they're going to be carrying someone to some degree very often. We all have our weaknesses and everyone messes up sometimes. Personally I'm happy as long as I don't need to break my back to carry people. I don't mind working a little bit harder to make up for someone's performance. Not everyone is a great player and that's okay. You don't need to be a great player to do the majority of the content in the game. It's enough for me if a person's performance is adequate for what we're doing. If they parse grey and it's causing no problems then I don't care.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Well, I think that's the point. Toxic behavior creates a toxic environment, so a few "bad apples" will indeed ruin it for the rest as they become contaminated. Thus, a "scorched earth" policy might be needed.

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That is the point that is dated we have tools to report those that violate the ToS. If someone is an asshole while using a parser report them and let the GM's sort it out, if someone is being toxic in chat report them and let GM's sort it out do not remove chat from PvP altogether.

It is unnecessary, imo and giving players better tools and open availability that allow them to improve I think would be a great benefit to the overall health of the community. Since as some said it may not be a lack of desire but a general lack of ingame feedback as to how one is performing.

Having enrage timers without parsing is weird to me. Granted I get things are different in Japan a group will either succeed together or fail to together from what I have been told generally they do not remove the problem player they either work with them to clear the content or disband the group. Though they probably will put said player on a black list or something afterwards. While I have never had to remove someone from content due to not being able to meet enrage timers since I normally run with my static I have been in discord when my friends have and it is always a silent kick no reason given cause they are afraid if getting reported. This mindset of being afraid of telling someone how they are performing is weird to me sure misinformation regarding the ToS and such things is the main factor but this general fear of parsing also does not help.

The grey area is nice and all but it is the lazy way to go about it. Either enforce it 100% or allow it 100% if they want an all or nothing approach in terms of the ToS I wish they would just enforce it uniformly.

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Originally Posted by Awha

This mindset of being afraid of telling someone how they are performing is weird to me sure misinformation regarding the ToS and such things is the main factor but this general fear of parsing also does not help.

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This overreaction is a user-created problem. The ToS does not prohibit you from helping others to do better. And if people cannot come to an agreement on how to work through their problem in order to achieve a common goal, then it is better to disband (or kick if one side is in the majority).

Telling people they're a "waste of space" and should "uninstall the game" or "not queue" is what the ToS prohibit. Whatever your opinion is, you either work it out with them, kick, disband, or quit the group yourself without resorting to being rude or toxic.

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Originally Posted by linayar

This overreaction is a user-created problem. The ToS does not prohibit you from helping others to do better. And if people cannot come to an agreement on how to work through their problem in order to achieve a common goal, then it is better to disband (or kick if one side is in the majority).

Telling people they're a "waste of space" and should "uninstall the game" or "not queue" is what the ToS prohibit. Whatever your opinion is, you either work it out with them, kick, disband, or quit the group yourself without resorting to being rude or toxic.

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I already said it is created via misinformation from the player base but the point still stands the the fear of parsing feeds into it. End of the day I understand how it works within the game I just do not agree with it. Personally being rude should not be a reason to not listen to take personal accountability for their actions. Not to say the person who was rude was not at fault but in the end from my own experience it is often very rare where someone is rude to another player without some reasoning behind it. Sure we may not agree on the reason but in end imo something always leads up to the out burst. I get this is victims blaming to a degree but if someone tells another person to uninstall or is rude especially if it happens often to the person then at that point they are part of the problem.

I get why people call out others and I get why people do not. I understand that some are cool with carrying others and others may get annoyed with it.

In the ene we call run into assholes I get people want to try and create a safe space from such people but to me that is unrealistic.

I get how things work here but yeah I can still not be a huge fan of it and think that they game would be better off if they toned down this fear of parsing.

Short of sweet I guess if someone tells you to uninstall or you are a waste of space before discounting what they are saying as being a troll or toxic maybe take to heart and see what could have lead to such a response in the first place instead of discounting it altogether.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Personally being rude should not be a reason to not listen to take personal accountability for their actions.

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I can understand this, but the reality is that's not how people will always work, and as a business, SE will tailor their game to how people react rather than the ideal that you want them to react.

So the solution on people's end is to not be rude. You may still get a negative reaction, but you'll likely also get more positive reaction. And at the end of the day, kick/disband/leave is still an option.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I can understand this, but the reality is that's not how people will always work, and as a business, SE will tailor their game to how people react rather than the ideal that you want them to react.

So the solution on people's end is to not be rude. You may still get a negative reaction, but you'll likely also get more positive reaction. And at the end of the day, kick/disband/leave is still an option.

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Or we get the another spectrum people just go the silent kick route and no longer offer help or criticism unless asked but because the game does a poor job offering feedback as to how ones perform people may be less likely to ask to help or advice. The tales of the duty finder thread does show that many experienced players have given up offering criticisms and advice due to people thinking they are doing fine cause the content was cleared. Sure it is a perception problem.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Or we get the another spectrum people just go the silent kick route and no longer offer help or criticism unless asked but because the game does a poor job offering feedback as to how ones perform people may be less likely to ask to help or advice. The tales of the duty finder thread does show that many experienced players have given up offering criticisms and advice due to people thinking they are doing fine cause the content was cleared. Sure it is a perception problem.

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What do you mean "or?" I did say kick was an option.

And if people give up because of some perceived fear, then oh well, guess people can continue playing how they want.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Or we get the another spectrum people just go the silent kick route

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Works like a charm. I ain't got time to teach someone how to play their job during my Sastasha speed runs.

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Originally Posted by WoW

Works like a charm. I ain't got time to teach someone how to play their job during my Sastasha speed runs.

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Homie you doing it wrong if you have time to kick during a Sastasha speed run.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Homie you doing it wrong if you have time to kick during a Sastasha speed run.

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It's fine, because we're doing it through PF. I don't use DF for that, since it brings my worst nightmare, a sprout!

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Originally Posted by WoW

It's fine, because we're doing it through PF. I don't use DF for that, since it brings my worst nightmare, a sprout!

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Figured your worst nightmare would be a melee dps in a sastasha speed run.

Like it or not, this is a multiplayer game. It's not toxic to expect people to actually read what their skills do and perform their proper rotation. Cry about it all you want, it doesn't change the simple fact.

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Originally Posted by linayar

What do you mean "or?" I did say kick was an option.

And if people give up because of some perceived fear, then oh well, guess people can continue playing how they want.

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The or is in regard to people that wish to help and share knowledge to players but do not do so due to the general consensus when it comers to offering help. Thus the silent kick of difference of play styles which people do not like either. So we in some weird loop I think people would handle a reason with data as why they were removed with more Grace then I think SE or the community thinks, even if it was delivered in a rude way.

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Originally Posted by Awha

The or is in regard to people that wish to help and share knowledge to players but do not do so due to the general consensus when it comers to offering help.

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Again, I already said a kick is an option if you're in the majority in the party, so that's a weird response to my post.

Either way, the general consensus is irrelevant, but whatever people choose to do, it's up to them as long as they don't violate the ToS.

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Thus the silent kick of difference of play styles which people do not like either. So we in some weird loop I think people would handle a reason with data as why they were removed with more Grace then I think SE or the community thinks, even if it was delivered in a rude way.

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In the short few years I've played MMOs, I've seen more people complain about toxic behaviors than about being "silently" kicked. In fact, outside of WoW, I can't recall ever seeing a vote to kick menu suddenly appearing without first seeing an altercation in the chat between two or more people. Also, only in WoW have I seen people complain about being kicked, but even then, usually it's mostly due to having deserter debuff rather than just the kick itself. On the other hand, specific to WoW as well, I also see people complain about being rejected from parties due to there being too much information about them. It's an interesting situation over there.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Again, I already said a kick is an option if you're in the majority in the party, so that's a weird response to my post.

Either way, the general consensus is irrelevant, but whatever people choose to do, it's up to them as long as they don't violate the ToS.

In the short few years I've played MMOs, I've seen more people complain about toxic behaviors than about being "silently" kicked. In fact, outside of WoW, I can't recall ever seeing a vote to kick menu suddenly appearing without first seeing an altercation in the chat between two or more people. Also, only in WoW have I seen people complain about being kicked, but even then, usually it's mostly due to having deserter debuff rather than just the kick itself. On the other hand, specific to WoW as well, I also see people complain about being rejected from parties due to there being too much information about them. It's an interesting situation over there.

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I tend to run with players that like to pull the difference of play style card often, and limit what they say in game due to past interactions with GM’s everyone has a different experience. Though generally if you ask around many do not find difference of play style as a valid reason for removal even if it passes many will defend the person that was removed. I have seen people removed silently only for the reason to come up after they are gone. Often it is for things like pull size or standing around as a healer. In the past I have seen tanks booted for sitting in tank stance, I have also seen people removed from PF groups without reason after someone saw their logs. To a degree it does happen here just like in WoW but in WoW it is just expected if you have shit logs you will be hard pressed to join a group.

Though I know vote kick is an option but at this point I figured we were talking about ways we wish this were instead of how they are. I have already said I know we have options I just wish it was not the case. I wish we could be more transparent with our kicks and give players a clear reason with data to back it up as to why they are removed when it comes to aspects of poor play. I speak from my own position if I was ever removed from a group I would love to know the reason why in as much detail as possible, and I feel others in the game also feel the same way. Though the fear SE and the community has against data no matter how self perceived it is hampers that interaction.

In short I have seen more people complain about silent kicks cause I was one of those people that would often kick due to differences of play style due to being afraid of getting reported I never said anything in chat, now I tend to pick my words carefully when I do explain why I started a vote and being as I often play tank or healer they mostly always pass. I have had few people get salty others took it with grace.

Either way this was less about how things are since I know it will never change more so how I wish SE would put aside their dated fear against parsing and toxic behavior and just punish it when it happens instead of trying to prevent it outright.

Overall I do prefer how things are in WoW, which is part of the reason I still maintain my sub to WoW and play it fairly often. I do prefer the more upfront nature of the WoW community in terms of how people play. Though I get my point of view is warped I laugh when people get doxxed or get told to keys so I tend to fight in with those overly “toxic” communities better. Guess you could say I enjoy the salt mines.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Either way this was less about how things are since I know it will never change more so how I wish SE would put aside their dated fear against parsing and toxic behavior and just punish it when it happens instead of trying to prevent it outright.

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That's the thing. You cannot expect them to put aside their "fear" because of the way things are, which means it's not dated. Even if you think it can change once SE changes first, we already have alternative games for people who want unrestricted freedom of parsing and sharing of parse.

This is why, even though jaded members of the community dislike it and try to negate it, we do have new members who, from time to time, comment on this community being nicer. It's because they're comparing to their previous experience with other games. Even if this game has elements of toxicity as well, in some ways, it is also true that it is nicer in other ways, and SE restricting the use of parse is part of that difference that shapes this community, as the "way things are" currently.

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Originally Posted by linayar

That's the thing. You cannot expect them to put aside their "fear" because of the way things are, which means it's not dated. Even if you think it can change once SE changes first, we already have alternative games for people who want unrestricted freedom of parsing and sharing of parse.

This is why, even though jaded members of the community dislike it and try to negate it, we do have new members who, from time to time, comment on this community being nicer. It's because they're comparing to their previous experience with other games. Even if this game has elements of toxicity as well, in some ways, it is also true that it is nicer in other ways, and SE restricting the use of parse is part of that difference that shapes this community, as the "way things are" currently.

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That is the thing I am not I am not expecting them to change cause I am sure they have their reasons for why the do things the way they do.

Though just because it is the way things are or the way they wish for things to be does not mean others cannot view their stance as dated or antiquated because it is based around a fear of potential toxicity.

You are right though I know SE restricting parsing is why people think our community is nicer and while I think that is a factor I do think other factors play a more prevalent role such as the easier nature of content in the game and the relative close class balance and viability across each role due to how close each job within their respective role performs relativity close to one another.

Though in the end sure we have other games we could play but hey one can wish for things to be different even if it is a pipe dream.

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Originally Posted by Awha

others cannot view their stance as dated or antiquated because it is based around a fear of potential toxicity.

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How is it only a potential when it still exists even now even with the restriction? You've even said that it is more upfront in WoW, so we have evidence that it's not just a potential danger, but a real one that exists to a degree in this game and more openly in other games.

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Originally Posted by linayar

How is it only a potential when it still exists even now even with the restriction? You've even said that it is more upfront in WoW, so we have evidence that it's not just a potential danger, but a real one that exists to a degree in this game and more openly in other games.

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As you said we already have toxic behavior in this game without parsing both of the elitist jerks side of things and the hyper causal side of things. So if we already have a form of toxicity and depending on who ask the degree of severity would differ.

So how are we to know parsing would make it worse? We may have an idea based around other games but this game is still considered one of the nicer communities despite the the flaws in the community would parsing in itself tilt the scales so far that it afters the community to such an extent? We really cannot say.

Also some could even say we have toxic behavior in the game regarding how people play be it pull size or lack of dmg while healing, not maximizing burst windows all of which we really do not need a parser for. So what harm can parsing really cause at this point?

In the end SE can try to police but things will always leak through so enforcement of what they view as toxic behavior seems like a better use of time instead of trying to prevent the behavior ( and depending who you ask not doing a great job at it ) by limiting the access to a tool that could help players improve.

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Originally Posted by linayar

And that is why we have the situation we have. The data is still there for those who want it, but there is regulation on how you present it against another player.

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In the end, Data isn't toxic, how you present it is, and people are flawed, don't do away with data because people can be toxic, they'll find new ways to be toxic, instead encourage proper interactions and being considerate. Is what I said there, and the regulation of it solves nothing, the combat devs are missing out on good data to make the game better. The Players who actively use this data where it matters show massive improvement in said content once they know to use said data.

The idea of parsing and collecting data for improvement being bad is a lie spread by people scared of having to do better in alot of content they wanna do, but never wanna put the effort into. And the sad part is that SE, and by Proxy Yoshi-P wants to avoid it, when this data can make feed back so much clearer for them when it comes to making content. So instead of having to have someone translate every little thing, put raw data into a readable format, you can read through already formatted data provided by ACT and by proxy FFLogs, you can see where the players struggle, what fights were done in certain ways, and how to can avoid content being seen as braindead or boring. And in doing that the Devs no longer have to constrain their own creative impulses or freedoms worrying about those are just too ignorant to approach the content.

My general thought process is, if the art team wants you to experience a whole zone they worked so hard on, before you can fly in it, you have to get aether currents. If the Music team wants you to experience the sound effects they've worked so hard on they make sure the game makes you focus on that. SO why should the Battle Content Devs be restricted because some people can't be bothered to try a bit harder, to think a bit more. In my opinion its disrespectful to them to have to stifle themselves like this to make content "approachable".

Data should never be constrained, it should be free to use, and SE and Yoshi-P should encourage players to considerate of others with said data. And change the ToS for those who aren't and make it a very swift perma ban. That way the data can be used, and people will help, or stay quiet if they dont want to help and simply remove those players from their group.

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Originally Posted by Awha

So how are we to know parsing would make it worse? We may have an idea based around other games but this game is still considered one of the nicer communities despite the the flaws in the community would parsing in itself tilt the scales so far that it afters the community to such an extent? We really cannot say.

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Well, if we really cannot say, then I don't see SE having any reason to risk what they have now by changing it.

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

My general thought process is, if the art team wants you to experience a whole zone they worked so hard on, before you can fly in it, you have to get aether currents. If the Music team wants you to experience the sound effects they've worked so hard on they make sure the game makes you focus on that. SO why should the Battle Content Devs be restricted because some people can't be bothered to try a bit harder, to think a bit more. In my opinion its disrespectful to them to have to stifle themselves like this to make content "approachable".

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Art and music doesn't directly affect social interaction like battle content.

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Data should never be constrained, it should be free to use, and SE and Yoshi-P should encourage players to considerate of others with said data. And change the ToS for those who aren't and make it a very swift perma ban. That way the data can be used, and people will help, or stay quiet if they dont want to help and simply remove those players from their group.

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People can help or stay quiet right now. Data constraint isn't the issue when it comes to people helping other people in the game.

Not really an opinion on the ongoing conversation (parse or not, nerfs etc), but wanted to offer some insight on Japanese thinking in case it might offer some light on why SE does what they do. My work involves testing and training Japanese and it’s...different from USA.

Japanese culture is very passive aggressive when compared to say, USA. There is also an overall mentality that if you just put in enough time and do your best, you will eventually get some reward. This does not necessarily mean you need to improve your best... (not that I agree with this, just how it is)

This can be seen in many game mechanics, such as iLVL requirements, echo buffs or how you basically should expect to clear all content the first time, even though you might wipe several times (outside of certain endgame hard mode stuff obviously).

Another example is the vulnerability stacks and semi instadeath mechanics. The idea is you should feel bad or frustrated for failing to dodge or dying too much and letting your team down...but in practice most people don’t really.

This is also why the nerfs on things like steps of faith. People expect to be able to clear as long as they do their personal best, and that came as a bit of a shock to many casuals.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Not really an opinion on the ongoing conversation (parse or not, nerfs etc), but wanted to offer some insight on Japanese thinking in case it might offer some light on why SE does what they do. My work involves testing and training Japanese and it’s...different from USA.

Japanese culture is very passive aggressive when compared to say, USA. There is also an overall mentality that if you just put in enough time and do your best, you will eventually get some reward. This does not necessarily mean you need to improve your best... (not that I agree with this, just how it is)

This can be seen in many game mechanics, such as iLVL requirements, echo buffs or how you basically should expect to clear all content the first time, even though you might wipe several times (outside of certain endgame hard mode stuff obviously).

Another example is the vulnerability stacks and semi instadeath mechanics. The idea is you should feel bad or frustrated for failing to dodge or dying too much and letting your team down...but in practice most people don’t really.

This is also why the nerfs on things like steps of faith. People expect to be able to clear as long as they do their personal best, and that came as a bit of a shock to many casuals.

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I feel like this post is somehow incomplete. Like, so what exactly is the difference?

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Originally Posted by linayar

Well, if we really cannot say, then I don't see SE having any reason to risk what they have now by changing it.

Art and music doesn't directly affect social interaction like battle content.

People can help or stay quiet right now. Data constraint isn't the issue when it comes to people helping other people in the game.

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Stepping outside ones comfort zone is hos we progress change. SE sticking with this notion that parsing is bad because people have had a bad experience in other games or have been person affected by parsing in the past is weird. Parsing itself has no inherent good or bad value. It depends on how it is used and that is where GM's come into play.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Stepping outside ones comfort zone is hos we progress change. SE sticking with this notion that parsing is bad because people have had a bad experience in other games or have been person affected by parsing in the past is weird. Parsing itself has no inherent good or bad value. It depends on how it is used and that is where GM's come into play.

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SE is a business, so comfort zone has nothing to do with it. Why should they put more work for their GM to do?

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

The idea of parsing and collecting data for improvement being bad is a lie spread by people scared of having to do better in alot of content they wanna do, but never wanna put the effort into.

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It really isn't as black and white as that. I completely understand why SE don't want parsers in the game because I have seen what happens when a game allows it.

Many people misuse parsers. They glance at numbers without taking things like gear or someone else making that person's job harder into consideration. They look at a tiny portion of the picture and judge someone as if that's the whole story.

Sure you can inform them that they're not looking at the big picture but this can be met with resistance. So then an argument starts when all you wanted to do was tell someone that taking a glance at a parser is often not enough to know what is truly going on.

And it really sucks when the person getting criticised also doesn't know how to look at parser data correctly and actually believe they are bad at the game when they're told they are. Some players are not experienced enough to realise how much someone else's performance can impact their own.

Also there are players who expect perfection all the time from those around them and nitpick tiny mistakes or have a hissy fit because someone in normal mode doesn't have excellent ogcd use when it's not even required in normal mode. Some people are just incapable of adjusting their expectations for the content they're in.

The problem isn't the parsers, it's the people who misuse them.

I'm not against parsers, if I was I wouldn't touch savage with a ten foot pole. I'm against their misuse but because misuse is not something that is possible to fix SE have elected to not permit them. In their eyes in game parsers are more trouble than they're worth.

That said it would be nice if there was a personal parser in the game that gave you data and a grade that takes your ilvl into account after you exit the instance so you can examine it yourself at your own pace without the risk of someone ignorant or meanspirited giving you an unnecessarily hard time over your performance while in the middle of doing it. SE are really good at making nice and clean UIs that are easy to understand so I'm sure any parser they would create would be quite user friendly. But even if that was in the game some people would hound someone after they exit the instance to call them out on something and that can lead to drama as well...so I doubt we will ever get anything like this.

Until the community can prove that parser misuse and the toxicity that can come from that would be rare SE are never going to give us a parser.

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Originally Posted by linayar

SE is a business, so comfort zone has nothing to do with it. Why should they put more work for their GM to do?

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Once again we do not know if it would require additional GM’s to police such a thing. The thing is even SE understands how useful parsing is that is why they turn a blind eye and it operates in some grey area. Personally I rather SE be open and allow for parsing across the board instead of just turning a blind eye and enforcing punishment when things get out of hand. Cause if they made parsing available to everyone they pretty much would be doing what they do now.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

It really isn't as black and white as that. I completely understand why SE don't want parsers in the game because I have seen what happens when a game allows it.

Many people misuse parsers. They glance at numbers without taking things like gear or someone else making that person's job harder into consideration. They look at a tiny portion of the picture and judge someone as if that's the whole story.

Sure you can inform them that they're not looking at the big picture but this can be met with resistance. So then an argument starts when all you wanted to do was tell someone that taking a glance at a parser is often not enough to know what is truly going on.

And it really sucks when the person getting criticised also doesn't know how to look at parser data correctly and actually believe they are bad at the game when they're told they are. Some players are not experienced enough to realise how much someone else's performance can impact their own.

Also there are players who expect perfection all the time from those around them and nitpick tiny mistakes or have a hissy fit because someone in normal mode doesn't have excellent ogcd use when it's not even required in normal mode. Some people are just incapable of adjusting their expectations for the content they're in.

The problem isn't the parsers, it's the people who misuse them.

I'm not against parsers, if I was I wouldn't touch savage with a ten foot pole. I'm against their misuse but because misuse is not something that is possible to fix SE have elected to not permit them. In their eyes in game parsers are more trouble than they're worth.

That said it would be nice if there was a personal parser in the game that gave you data and a grade that takes your ilvl into account after you exit the instance so you can examine it yourself at your own pace without the risk of someone ignorant or meanspirited giving you an unnecessarily hard time over your performance while in the middle of doing it. SE are really good at making nice and clean UIs that are easy to understand so I'm sure any parser they would create would be quite user friendly. But even if that was in the game some people would hound someone after they exit the instance to call them out on something and that can lead to drama as well...so I doubt we will ever get anything like this.

Until the community can prove that parser misuse and the toxicity that can come from that would be rare SE are never going to give us a parser.

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In the grand scheme I think parsing abuse is on the rare side here. Sure I grant that if it was more openly used the amount of abuse would go up though that would probably just be due to the amount of players openly using it going up. I do not think the overall case frequency would go up when adjusted for the increase of usage.

It is also a weird image from an enforcement standpoint breaking TOS bad but operate in this grey area where technically your action is against the TOS but we will let it slide unless you do something report worthy with it. Wouldn’t that be how it would be treated if it was openly used?

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Many people misuse parsers. They glance at numbers without taking things like gear or someone else making that person's job harder into consideration. They look at a tiny portion of the picture and judge someone as if that's the whole story.

Sure you can inform them that they're not looking at the big picture but this can be met with resistance. So then an argument starts when all you wanted to do was tell someone that taking a glance at a parser is often not enough to know what is truly going on.

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A lot of people forget that number is a combination of many factors and player skill makes up at most 50% of it. Gear definitely counts; better gear means higher main stats and more weapon attack power to boost DPS while also meaning better health and damage resistances to decrease the chances of the player going down when they mess up a mechanic that isn't a insta-kill. Someone with i530 gear is going to be doing more damage on average then someone of the same class with the same skill in i510 gear.

And a lot of people also forget that the actions of other players on the team also affect that number. If you get a stack marker on your head and nobody stacks with you or the tank spins the boss and cleaves half the party, including you, well good luck with those numbers.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Look this nice community everyone praises FF14 stops at the party finder for Savage fights and getting this harmonious static group concept that was developed when this MMO was 7/8 of the way to being dead over 7 years ago is not my idea of fun. There is a good reason FF14 is not known for its raid content and this static stuff, memorizing 12+ min fights and maintaining perfect rotations to keep from getting yelled at is why.

You can paint whatever rosy picture you want but when it comes to Savage raiding that is easily the biggest turn off for most new players who would just go back to WoW if they wanted that much of a toxic experience. I avoid it and I am definitely not alone in that opinion. It is a night and day experience with this MMO that makes a lot of people stop trying.

If the high end communities goal was to drive as many people away from savage then they have succeeded without a doubt. There is a reason Delubrum Savage was dead content within a week and they had to change the rules for how to queue for it and it is not because the content was boring.

The easiest way to fix all of this for Square Enix would be to give HEAVY incentives for FC's to form into more coordinated raiding groups with bigger Savage raids of 16+ people. That alone would kill this static clique stuff you see and force people to organize into groups that see each other more often then once every content patch cycle.

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https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...rtuned-for-LFR

SoS normal, overtuned
I think this explains a lot of your "bad experiences"

>Mateus
uh huh

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Originally Posted by MPK

>Mateus
uh huh

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Crystal raiding is not that baaaad.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Once again we do not know if it would require additional GM’s to police such a thing.

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Your whole argument rests on making it seem ambiguous what people might do with the data, but we do know what people will do with it. Data by itself is not toxic, agreed, but it's another ammunition that people will abuse/misuse to be toxic. This is not a we-don't-know-if-it-will-cause-more-toxicity-out-in-the-open type of scenario. We do know, and that's why its use is restricted.

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The thing is even SE understands how useful parsing is that is why they turn a blind eye and it operates in some grey area. Personally I rather SE be open and allow for parsing across the board instead of just turning a blind eye and enforcing punishment when things get out of hand. Cause if they made parsing available to everyone they pretty much would be doing what they do now.

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The problem is that things will get out of hand more often if parsing is allowed openly. There is a deterrence effect in place just by not allowing it. Also, if they allow it for PC, they would want to provide it for console as well, so that's another limiting factor in things getting out of hand because a significant portion of the player base does not have access to it.

So, yes, they would still be doing what they do now, but more often, so it's still more work for no reason when the current situation already works for them.

Savage raiding is infinitely more tolerable when you're with a group of friends you trust as opposed to strangers who just want to get in and get done. I didn't really participate until my social linkshell formed a "baby savage" group to help a member who had missed a year of content due to.... having a baby. (Valid reason!) It was to catch her up so we started from scratch at E1S and went from there.

We die a lot. We screw up a lot. We fail a lot. Sometimes one person uploads things to FFlogs, not to shame but to help us analyze what is going wrong. Eventually the stars align, we clear, and move on.

I would never ever ever do this content in a learning party with people I didn't know already. But that doesn't mean the content is too hard, and it doesn't mean you're allowed to perform poorly in a pick up group.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

Reading posts like this, I am starting to realize why some fans of Final Fantasy are against Online games being included in the numbered titles.

Maybe they were onto something when they thought that prestige of being a numbered entry in the Final Fantasy series shouldn't go to an "MMO".

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I've never heard a Final Fantasy fan say this about 2.0 and beyond. FFXIV is the currently best main line FF game Square has put out in 15 years story and character-wise, which are what most people play Final Fantasy for.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Your whole argument rests on making it seem ambiguous what people might do with the data, but we do know what people will do with it. Data by itself is not toxic, agreed, but it's another ammunition that people will abuse/misuse to be toxic. This is not a we-don't-know-if-it-will-cause-more-toxicity-out-in-the-open type of scenario. We do know, and that's why its use is restricted.

The problem is that things will get out of hand more often if parsing is allowed openly. There is a deterrence effect in place just by not allowing it. Also, if they allow it for PC, they would want to provide it for console as well, so that's another limiting factor in things getting out of hand because a significant portion of the player base does not have access to it.

So, yes, they would still be doing what they do now, but more often, so it's still more work for no reason when the current situation already works for them.

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We do not know we can speculate and postulate that open access to data would lead to an overall increase in toxicity, or maybe things would stay roughly the same i terms of how toxic things are with being removed ‘ barred from groups due to information. I would not say I have an argument per-se cause my position is this will never change I am mostly just talking about how I wish things were.

We only know based off other games, other balancing structures especially where character progress is tied mostly through gear. In FFXIV endgame raiding is not much the focus of character development. You can reach the height of character development ties to story never touching savage especially with things like relic weapons.

This game does not really have a FoTM structure and encounter design is heavily scripted so I personally cannot say with 100% certainty that adding parsers would lead to a higher when accounted for increased availability. Unless you are saying that the overall increase is all that matters which is unfair comparison since of course with increased availability more issues of toxicity would occur. If I were to make an argument my position would be that the overall increase in availability would not increase the amount of toxicity that would statistically differ in terms of what GM’s / community face now.

Sure if we take into account the requirements to make a system that works for console that is a different story altogether cause I have already stated this would never happen so I was not taking into consideration since I did not think this was a debate on if they should or should not add them. Cause that is irrelevant because they never will. I was talking about how I do not agree with the general philosophy behind their choice.

Though it is funny not saying you are doing this but in other cases some like to say one cannot compare FFXIV to other games yet when it comes to parsing we are quick to site our negative experiences in other games as a reason to not have them.