Got kicked Right before boss.

The Scholar should've been kicked, not the tank.

That's all I have to say.

This is one of the mean reasons I dont take threads like these serious. Normally you see only one side of the story and everybody sides with the victim.

I am glad Kakiko shared the link for the other side of the story or else it was again a victim petting theard.

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Originally Posted by ShadowHunterrX

This is one of the mean reasons I dont take threads like these serious. Normally you see only one side of the story and everybody sides with the victim.

I am glad Kakiko shared the link for the other side of the story or else it was again a victim petting theard.

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That tends to be the case for sure. But I will say a lot of people actually challenged the OP in this thread to start with. Then details revealed themselves...

Had this happen in PoTD once, just annoying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maighdlin

That tends to be the case for sure. But I will say a lot of people actually challenged the OP in this thread to start with. Then details revealed themselves...

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No, actually. First reply was you, getting more details on the situation. Second reply was Kakiko posting the link to the DF thread.

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Originally Posted by xMysticx

it was a mistake making this thread...

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If you wouldn't have made this thread, you wouldn't have listened to any advice and would still be using Shield Lob all the time.
And if your group wouldn't have kicked you before the last boss, you wouldn't have made this thread.
Yes, it's not nice to kick someone before the last boss. I think it's somehow alright though in some cases, just to show them "this is not ok" - if they didn't have the chance to kick the person before or tried to give them more advice before kicking. Also, of course the people who were really rude should have been kicked before.
But still, you must see it like this - good came out of it because you wouldn't have had the chance to get better without this incident. You maybe know now that it is not a bad thing to take advice from others.

(Also, people are giving you great advice and you tell them to stop posting? That is rude as well, especially with how you worded it. You want others to be nice, so be nice too...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xMysticx

Yeah i most definitely work on getting better and improving, i do appreciate the advice that most people have given, thanks for the advice!

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Yes, focus on the good advice in this thread, and I'd recommend finding fellow tanks in game who are more skilled who can teach you and show the ropes :) And don't judge the playerbase as a whole by how people behave on the forums, even if the thread was a mistake, take something positive from it. And remember to communicate with your teammates, people will help you if you're open to learning. Like Limonia said, be nice and cut each other some slack, some people genuinely wanna help and sometimes text doesn't always convey intent, good luck :)

The entitlement...
It's so sad that people only focuses on OP's skill instead of the kick itself.

The kick was unnecessary. OP is a new player and we shouldn't expect perfect plays from new members, and you shouldn't expect that your "useful tips" can improve their skills in 1 minute.


The persons who kicked him are entitled people who think they're good at giving tips, but the kick itself proves otherwise.
Shame on them and people who deffend arbitrary kicks like these. We're giving a bad image to new players, and this thread stinks of entitlement.

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Originally Posted by Awful

Honestly I would have kicked anyone not preforming their role (i.e tank losing threat everywhere, healer not healing etc), replace and move on, it's not the end of the world if they don't take any advice I won't waste it if they haven't caught onto how to do their primary role by lvl 50.

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But you could get lvl 50 within 2 weeks of doing quests only with double bonus exp "road to 60" and sanctuary bonus (not sure do they stack).
Seriously, you expect these players to learn anything in that time? xD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

The entitlement...
It's so sad that people only focuses on OP's skill instead of the kick itself.

The kick was unnecessary. OP is a new player and we shouldn't expect perfect plays from new members, and you shouldn't expect that your "useful tips" can improve their skills in 1 minute.

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There is a difference though between "perfect play" and "using only Shield Loop" - if you think of it as a scale, OPs performance in that dungeon seemed to have been kinda close to the "Sield Loop"-side, resulting in mobs attacking party-members. I dont see a reason not to believe Kaldea when they say that "aggro was all over the place" and OP himself makes a remark about him taking "most of the damage" - both implying that he did not have aggro on all mobs. He had also stated that he did not use his combo and when asked about this, replied with believing Shield Loop to be stronger... and then continue to use that. To me that doesnt sound like anyone expected them to improve in less a minute but rather that he dismissed that tip outright.
I can understand that party with that nasty DPS and unpleasent scholar probably wasnt the nicestes place to learn - half because of them... and half because it was TamTara HM, A level 50 dungeon.
Using your main-combo and flash instead of Shield Loop isnt "perfect play".
Its playing the job at a very basic level.

The kick apparently occured when it became apparent that OP wasnt able or willing to bring that basic job performance to the table - keep in mind that there are some things that can delay a kick: Hope, that he might understand during the next pull; a newly engaged fight; an open chest.

I do not support this "newbie cuddeling" and giving them free pass through everything on the grounds of "Oh, but they're new!" - please note that I also dont support any rude behaviour. I might not sugarcoat things, but I'm trying my very best to stay polite.
That being said: A person at level 50 isnt new anymore in my book. Or at least not new enough to get a free pass at failing basic mechanics of the job. Wether or not the party is still able to clear the dungeon doesnt matter to much to me here, because if they are indeed clearing the dungeon, it was on the expense of the 3 other people in said dungeon, with one person partically left behind in a corner.

We should not be okay with rude behaviour in any form - and to be honest: being unable to perform to your role [not PERFECT! Just the BASIC STUFF], not preparing for the upcoming grouptask is kinda rude. No excuse for harrassment and being called word, but I honestly dont understand how people can be fine with tanks not tanking, healers not healing and BLMS only casting ice past level 30*.
When does someone stop being new in your book? Or at least new enough to make them aware that they're having fundamental troubles with the job they'v choosen?

Yes, we should be nice and welcoming to our fellow players, new or not. And I'm all for the benefit of the doubt - but at a certain level, certain skills should be expected and if they're not being delivered and the person in question makes the dungeon unnecessary "difficult" or annoying for the rest of the party, that person does deserve a kick. I cant support the idea of letting 3 people "suffer" just so the feelings of that new person wont get hurt by being told "Hey, you seem to have trouble with the basics of your job - please try using this skill. It does this."

*Yes, I know that AST, MCN and DRK start at 30 - but to unlock them you need to reach Ishgard, so you've played a while already, so one would hope you're able to figure their basics out since you've made yourself familiar with the basics of one job already. Same with RDM and SAM at 50 - I dont expect perfect play there, for heavens sake! But I expect people to make themself familiar with the job they pick before taking it in group-content.
Goes even more for jump potion user: If you skip the chance to gather experience with that job by not gathering experience for that job, I expect you to read some sort of quick guide, your tooltips and at the very, very least the description of what your job is supposed to do. I had a level 67-jump-potion-DRK in Bardams once... it wasnt pretty, aggro was everywhere, tankstance not present, communication attemtpts ignored. They left without ever saying a word after 4 minutes (mind you, all that was said in chat was stuff like "Can you please turn on grit? It will help you to hold aggro more easly!" and "Can you use Unleash to make sure the mobs are attacking you instead of the healer?)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

But you could get lvl 50 within 2 weeks of doing quests only with double bonus exp "road to 60" and sanctuary bonus (not sure do they stack).
Seriously, you expect these players to learn anything in that time? xD

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Basics?
Yeah, sure.
I dont recall which quest excatly it was but one of the very earlier gld-quests (level 15, maybe?) is a lesson on Flash - Hall of Novice is a thing. If I'm not mistaken, the game sends you there before you enter your first dungeon. You can skip it, but at that point it becomes your responsibility to make sure you know the basics of your job.
Would you not expect that a healer at level 50 to have figured out how to heal you at that point?

I'm always thinking about this with a solo-game in mind, asking the question: If you woudl ignore such basics in a solo-game - would you beat it?
And what do you do when you cant beat a solo-game? You either quit, consulte a guide or sit down and review your skills again.
The problem is that in an MMO 3 other people can indeed carry you through dungeons without your knowledge...

Off topic Vidu, but why Shield "Loop" ?

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Originally Posted by Neri

Off topic Vidu, but why Shield "Loop" ?

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I'm german and I'm playing with a german client :)
Sometimes I write "by ear" - in this case, I've heard the name of the skill quite a lot of times, but never looked it up - my bad xD
I hope everyone can forgive me that I dont go back and correct every Loop to a Lob... I'll try to remember that one...

"I'm new" only gets you so far as an excuse.

He was level 51, not level 15. Having absolutely zero idea as to how your class functions at its most basic level by that point is not acceptable, "new" or not. If he was dying to a mechanic he'd never encountered before, or was neglecting to use a combo chain he's not had access to since level 4 (Fast+Savage)/26 (Fast+Savage+Halone), then sure, "I'm new" would be an acceptable defence.

His reason for using shield lob was "it does good damage". Shield lob is 120 potency. You know what's more potency that that? Fast blade (160 pot). Even more than that? fast+savage (185/gcd averaged). That shows he didn't even look at his skills at all.

Advice was offered, he didn't listen to it. He was given an entire dungeon to show he had taken it on board. He did not. A kick being seen as a step too far after that is utterly laughable.

Expecting someone to know what their buttons do isn't entitlement. It's a basic fundamental requirement for playing the game and not wasting 3/7/23 other people's time. The fact anybody would defend not even mediocrity, but willful ignorance is mind boggling.

Now, the Scholar's actions were unacceptable, but that doesn't give OP a free pass.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Snip

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I guess we have different points of view on some stuff. I'm usually more patient, for example if I'l playing SCH and the newbie tank has a had time to hold aggro, I would stop doing high DPS, and then I would give him some tips.

Same thing if I run as tank, I would stop going DPS stance and would pull slowly if the healer has a bad time healing me.


What it seems is that the DPSs and healer kept playing their jobs at full; DPS doing lots of damage, healer doing damage as well, and the newbie tank had problems holding aggro.

He didn't know how to hold aggro or do his basic rotation, yes, but I think the others didn't really help him on practice.
They kicked him right in front of the final boss, and I think that shows the DPS and healer true intentions. I mean, they cleared the boss without tank because they didn't need him, so the problem wasn't the tank himself, yet they kicked him.
They just wanted to prove how right they are and give him a lesson with a kick, "that'll show him, hah!".

All I see is entitlement on this specific case.


On other situations, if I ever kick a newbie it would be because he wouldn't listen or answer, but usually it's me who leaves if I see no feedback at all.

Also keep in mind that it was a random Dutyfinder dungeon, not a Party Finder dungeon. When you queue for it, you should expect stuff like that.

Am I too patient, maybe?

The PLD was ignoring advice and by the sounds of it being generally unreasonable, the kick should have happened earlier instead of right before the last boss, because that makes Kaldea look bad because it was a kick of spite and nothing more. Because mind you they did make it to the last boss and it's really so easy he could have held aggro with just shield lob anyways. Still bad, but possible.

Just makes it sound like Kaldea pushing of the "I want to coach you" idea is just them trying to not sound so bad cause they had initiated the kick even though the other players were being quite rude from the sounds of it.
Either way the PLD needs to get good and Kaldea need not kick before the last boss unless it is for spiteful reasons, and if it is just own it don't muck around trying to look like the better person just makes you look worse.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

This is untrue. You use shield lob to pull groups from range, at which the 2.5s will be filled with gap closing. If this is too much then CoS is a very valid part of your opener. Keeping hate while pulling with shield lob is not harmful in the slightest if you have a basic grasp of tank rotations

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Sorry but I have seen WAAY too many tank lose aggro that way and then frantically collect the 2 mobs gnaw on DPS players.
I usually play as a WHM, so it's not me that is tanking or DPSing.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Snip

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We are indeed having different views here, maybe I can explain where mine comes from, specially in this case?

I'd like to refer to your line "They just wanted to prove how right they are and give him a lesson with a kick, "that'll show him, hah!"." here - and pointout two things:
1) It kinda worked, didnt it? The OP created this thread and will hopefully improve upon their tanking now to get it to a skill-level thats more reflecting of their character-level. Doesnt excuse any potential malicious behaviour, but
2) what would have been won by carrying OP through the last boss aswell? I'm saying this because a lot of responsed from the OP in this thread had the notion of "They wasted MY time" for me - instead of taking a step back and reflecting upon wether or not he might have "wasted" anyones time. My judgment might be wrong, but I got the impression that he would have just jumped straight back into the next dungeon, the next group - still being unable to perform, when it would have actually been needed that he takes a step back, looks at what hes doing as tank and compares that to what he should be doing.


Then... "it was a random Dutyfinder dungeon [...] When you queue for it, you should expect stuff like that."
No. This is were I'll strongly disagree with you, sorry.
Or rather: Sure, expect tanks not tanking, healers not healing and DPS staring at walls in a DF-run. But do not tolerate that. At a certain (level)-point that is something we should not have to expect and put up with anymore. At a certain level-point I should expect people to perform the basics of their job without being asked to do so. Level 50 dungeons seem well within that point for me (with a bit more leeway for RDM and SAM at level 50-54). No one should be learning the basics of their job or their basic 1-2-3 combo in a level 50 dungeon, sorry.
I'm not expecting perfect play in DF but I also shouldnt expect or put up with "garbage" (I want to make very, very clear that this is NOT directed at the OP at all, but meant as a general statment - I do not mean to insult anyone personal here, just to make this point).

So... if you ask me - yes, maybe you are to patient. And that can be a good thing for some newbies in DF! For those who are willing to listen, but I cant help thinking that if everyone always gets away with true subpar-play (again: not talking perfection; talking "failing to do the basics") it enables that play and makes them believe they're actually doing fine. "We cleared the dungeon, so whats the problem?" - when the problem was that one person was Shield Lob'ing/not Cure-ing/Ice-Only-Casting through the dungeon, making a clear only possible thanks to the other three people.
Maybe I'm to harsh, but I cant endorse (right word?) that.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

The entitlement...
It's so sad that people only focuses on OP's skill instead of the kick itself.

The kick was unnecessary. OP is a new player and we shouldn't expect perfect plays from new members

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Again HE WAS 50. That is NOT a new player anymore (barring using the pot, which he didn't).

If we were talking sub 30 I would agree but at 50 we can expect some basic level of competence.
The community in this game is waaay too forgiving and patient with incompetent/lazy players, sadly, the devs encourage and design around incompetence, which is why 4 man dungeons get easier every patch. It is sad.

The most hilarious thing is: the kick was indeed unnecessary. If they managed to get to the end boss, they could have easily completed the dungeon. Lets face it, most mobs hit like wet noodles anyway. Oftentimes I don't even care whether I am healing a tank or a DPS.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

The most hilarious thing is: the kick was indeed unnecessary. If they managed to get to the end boss, they could have easily completed the dungeon. Lets face it, most mobs hit like wet noodles anyway. Oftentimes I don't even care whether I am healing a tank or a DPS.

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This might sound a bit rude now, but: It would also have given some credit for something they didnt excatly "deserved" the credit for (assuming, Kaldeas report is correct in regards to aggro etc.) - yes, they could have probably kicked the OP sooner. There might have been other reasons for the bad timing beside spite. I'll admit that I kicked someone right before the last boss once or twice before - had no chance to do so before, thanks to loot. But even though we were somehow able to finish the dungeon, the person in question had made the run so unpleasent that the thought of them earning the fruits of our hard work wasnt sitting right with me. Call that petty, if you wish... or tell me that "Eye for an Eye" isnt a good approach. But doing nothing and just getting walked over isnt a decent solution in my book either.
Think of any other group-project done by 4 people. And one of them has no idea about the topic. Didnt read the texts they were supposed to read to prepare. When asked questions they dont bring anything to the table. The other three are picking up their work aswell - they kinda have to now, right? Lets say, its a school/uni-project and they're getting a group-grade for it - is it fair that the person who failed to deliver their part gets the same grade as the others?

Granted, this is "just a game" - but its a game for all of us and we all should consider how our actions influence the people around us, sharing this game.
That doesnt only go for veterans, who should obviously be nice to their fellow adventurers, specially the new ones.
It also goes for the new(-ish) person, who should try to play and improve as best as they can.

...maybe its me, but I dont understand how people fail to read their tooltips... seriously, how do those people play solo-games?! Guesswork? Whenever I get a skill or character in a solo-RPG I'll look at their description to get an idea what to do with them. I'm doing the same in this game, to make sure I'm giving my fellow teammates the curtsy of not subjecting them to my absolute clueless-ness when it comes to melee-dps, should I happen to play one after all.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

But you could get lvl 50 within 2 weeks of doing quests only with double bonus exp "road to 60" and sanctuary bonus (not sure do they stack).
Seriously, you expect these players to learn anything in that time? xD

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Less then a week actually. That buff is too op tbh.

I don't think it was wrong for kicking the OP if it is true that he was ignoring any advice they were giving him but waiting until right before the last boss to kick him and justify it as teaching a bad player a lesson just feels dirty, but on the flip side if he didn't get kicked at the end then he might not of posted here and received advice on how to be a better player. So like the OP has moved on so to should folks in here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vidu

This might sound a bit rude now, but: It would also have given some credit for something they didnt excatly "deserved" the credit for (assuming, Kaldeas report is correct in regards to aggro etc.)

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I know how you feel and I share the sentiment.

Just wanted to point out the hilariously flawed design.
Imho, the dungeon itself should tell the group "nope, not with a tank like this". Then there would be no need for "toxic" player behavior towards people that clearly can't be arsed to read a 3 line tooltip and expect everything handed to them. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

But you could get lvl 50 within 2 weeks of doing quests only with double bonus exp "road to 60" and sanctuary bonus (not sure do they stack).
Seriously, you expect these players to learn anything in that time? xD

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If the game had a properly designed leveling experience besides the "fill that dumb bar to make it take longer", yes. The game itself should bring us in situation where we HAVE to play correctly (whithin reason ofc, not everyone is elite savage material) to progress.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Basics?
Yeah, sure.
I dont recall which quest excatly it was but one of the very earlier gld-quests (level 15, maybe?) is a lesson on Flash - Hall of Novice is a thing. If I'm not mistaken, the game sends you there before you enter your first dungeon. You can skip it, but at that point it becomes your responsibility to make sure you know the basics of your job.
Would you not expect that a healer at level 50 to have figured out how to heal you at that point?

I'm always thinking about this with a solo-game in mind, asking the question: If you woudl ignore such basics in a solo-game - would you beat it?
And what do you do when you cant beat a solo-game? You either quit, consulte a guide or sit down and review your skills again.
The problem is that in an MMO 3 other people can indeed carry you through dungeons without your knowledge...

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Did the op said he didnt use flash, or the opposite side said he had a problem with keeping the aggro?
No? So he did well enough for 2-3 weeks player.

Its a dungeon with 90 minute mark, if you feel a tank not spamming aoe all the time makes it impossible to run, then there is something wrong with you as a dps, because your dps probably socks also if you progress so slowly.
I doubt his party was any good as well, but it was easy for them to call him, instead of looking at themselves.
As a tank myself i could easly tell which party i am playing with has a good dps or not, that factor makes up 80% of the party damage most of the time if the dps are at least decent, i could chill out and focus on keeping alive myself with big pull instead of doing most of the dmg. Things just evaporate so quick if the dps know what they are doing. If they struggle to run the dungeon i guess they were not good either, yet they fast to blame a PLD in tank stance for his poor dps, PATHETIC.
Especially if you realize that PLD in dungeon on average is second lowest dps dealing class with giant gap comparing to dps (2-3 times higher), if that makes it so bad to run someone is complaining how long it takes, i have bad message for them.

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

Less then a week actually. That buff is too op tbh.

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It may be even like this, well at least for me it took about 2-3 weeks with wandering around, doing nothing and have not much time spare to play. :P

A few things have strayed. OP said he used Shield Lob, Flash, and 'that skill you get at 50'. I highly doubt he meant Hallowed Ground so I believe the three he used were Shield Lob, Flash, and Circle of Scorn.

I think a few of us just expect a little better than "I just used these three and thought shield lob does better" and when someone refuses to take that advice in (he admits to ignoring that advice and not using RoH combo), then it's also a matter of 'how long did it take to get fed up enough to decide that it doesn't work'?

I've met a few new tanks who will just run head first into content without a thought. I don't know if the kicker had the chance to attempt to kick before the last boss (open chests, battle engaged). In an ideal situation I think I would have told the SCH and DRG that they needed to tone it down, be more polite. Reiterate that the PLD needs help. Going from there I'm not sure if I'd be able to just stop, trying to type out what I can in a forum setting into the chatbox.

This entire situation is a fiasco and a lot of people were not in the right. OP/PLD needed to learn that what he's doing is not good. SCH/DRG should be reported (and Kaldea said they reported them as well). The kicker (and Kaldea since they said they were about to) should have kicked at a better time but I'm not sure when they could have or if they could have done it then. Maybe they tried to be patient but that patience dwindled. In the end, latter replies by the PLD of saying this thread is a mistake and that they wasted his time don't leave me with a good impression.

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Originally Posted by Kakiko

This sounds familiar


Anyone have popcorn?

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I applaud your correct usage of linking directly to a post and not the entire thread. \o/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Did the op said he didnt use flash, or the opposite side said he had a problem with keeping the aggro?
No? So he did well enough for 2-3 weeks player.

Its a dungeon with 90 minute mark, if you feel a tank not spamming aoe all the time makes it impossible to run, then there is something wrong with you as a dps, because your dps probably socks also if you progress so slowly.
I doubt his party was any good as well, but it was easy for them to call him, instead of looking at themselves.
As a tank myself i could easly tell which party i am playing with has a good dps or not, that factor makes up 80% of the party damage most of the time if the dps are at least decent, i could chill out and focus on keeping alive myself instead of doing most of the dmg. If they struggle to run the dungeon i guess they were not good either, yet they fast to blame a PLD in tank stance for his poor dps, PATHETIC.

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The opposite side, in the "Tells from the Duy Finder"-thread stated that basically everyone was tanking.
OP sadly never answered my question wether or not they used flash, so we're left with a bit of guesswork here - with the two best points being him saying that he was "using Shield Lob and that level 50 skill" and that "he was taking most of the damage". Both dont sound to re-asuring to me that he indeed used flash and was tanking properly. You cant really hold hate on a group of mobs, or on a single mob (...more likely though) by only throwing your shield at them - partly because you'll run out of TP to fast to keep that up.

And who said anything about kicking him for "poor dps"? You're the first person to bring this up now - everyone so far has simply been stating that its a reasonable expectation of a level 50 tank - no matter if it took them a day, a week or a month to reach that level - to perform the basics of their job. Which is to hold aggro on all mobs.
A tank doesnt has to "spam AoE all the time" - specially considering Flash deals no damage. A tank has to spam AoE enough to keep hate on all mobs. Or, in other words: A tank has to tank.

Bit of a personal excuse here, that you can ignore if you wish:
Paladin is actually my main-job. When I started this game I picked gladiator because, you know, I like swords. I had never played an MMO before. I had no idea what a tank was or what a tank has to do. Granted, I was lucky enough to have friends explaining some very basic stuff to me (even things like "Yes, you're allowed to roll on loot from chests. Specially when it is for your job!"). I certainly wasnt perfect - and I outright sucked at dodging. Back then the servers were still overseas and my lag was quite bad. On top of me being quite bad myself. I recall this incident in Brayflox Longstop NM. I couldnt dodge the dragon breath of the last boss. Just couldnt get out of it. The scholar couldnt heal through the poison - and you're not supposed to do that. We wiped a couple of times til they removed me, rightfully, from that party. Given my performance we couldnt kill that boss.
Today its way, way easier to compensate for someones lack of skill or lack of trying or paying attention - and I'm not talking about dealt damage, I'm talking about dodging, tanking... heck, past level 58 my paladin can compensate the lack of a healer with Clemency - and I had to do that quite a few times already.
But non of that is "right".
Just because three other people can compensate for your lack of whatever doesnt mean thats okay.

I dont think they were wrong for kicking OP. You cannot hold aggro by just spamming shield lob. At the most you would just run out of TP after using it 6 or 7 times like the OP stated.

I think OP needs to go look at the novice training at the adventures guild. That would help them tremendously. Ignore the past run and focus on future runs and how to be a better tank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vidu

OP sadly never answered my question wether or not they used flash

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He did, as I stated again just above.

He said it here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xMysticx

shield lob and that one level 50 skill you get after doing all base game paladin quests, don't know the name of the skill at the moment, also flash as well.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ExKage

He did, as I stated again just above.

He said it here.

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oooh, thank you - I must have missed that thanks to a late hour and a horrible headache. My bad, I'm sorry.

Makes things potentailly a bit better on OPs side of things, specially considering that it means that they are able to use basic tank-actions (and granted, Tam Tara HM is a nasty dungeon to tank - all those stupid ghosts refusing to move) - still, not using their 1-2-3 combo leaves massive room for improvment...

Last time I heard complaints like this, SE staff confirmed that "playstyle differences" were perfectly valid kick justifications. /shrug

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Granyala

The most hilarious thing is: the kick was indeed unnecessary.

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Everything happens for a reason, they say. If they wouldn't have kicked him, we wouldn't have this thread right now filled with people teaching OP how to tank. So I think it was a positive outcome after all.

Imo I think it was right to kick the tank. If it had been Aurum Vale, a group might have been more lenient? I don’t know. :P

But I would imagine by the time the group reached the last boss, they’d had had enough of being aggrod and/or possibly dying to it multiple times and just wanted to finish the dungeon because they feared the possible constant wiping on the last boss and that it had taken ages to get to the end anyway?

They must have also shown some leniency to get that far - would we think it was reasonable that a level 50 tank doing that low level dungeon to be able to fly through it with no issues? I’d say yes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

Imo I think it was right to kick the tank. If it had been Aurum Vale, a group might have been more lenient? I don’t know. :P

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Probably less lenient. :D

Aurum is a pain, esp if you are an old school hobby tank like me. Back then I didn't like mass pulling and I actually waited for a few seconds for mobs (esp patrols) to get into position for controlled pulls.

Despite never losing aggro I was eventually called an idiot and kicked. That taught me that it's apparently better to rage-face AoE pull (and risk losing aggro on a mob or two) than have the audacity of waiting for 10 seconds for a patrol to get out of range. :D

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Originally Posted by Vidu

The opposite side, in the "Tells from the Duy Finder"-thread stated that basically everyone was tanking.
OP sadly never answered my question wether or not they used flash, so we're left with a bit of guesswork here - with the two best points being him saying that he was "using Shield Lob and that level 50 skill" and that "he was taking most of the damage". Both dont sound to re-asuring to me that he indeed used flash and was tanking properly. You cant really hold hate on a group of mobs, or on a single mob (...more likely though) by only throwing your shield at them - partly because you'll run out of TP to fast to keep that up.

And who said anything about kicking him for "poor dps"? You're the first person to bring this up now - everyone so far has simply been stating that its a reasonable expectation of a level 50 tank - no matter if it took them a day, a week or a month to reach that level - to perform the basics of their job. Which is to hold aggro on all mobs.
A tank doesnt has to "spam AoE all the time" - specially considering Flash deals no damage. A tank has to spam AoE enough to keep hate on all mobs. Or, in other words: A tank has to tank.

Bit of a personal excuse here, that you can ignore if you wish:
Paladin is actually my main-job. When I started this game I picked gladiator because, you know, I like swords. I had never played an MMO before. I had no idea what a tank was or what a tank has to do. Granted, I was lucky enough to have friends explaining some very basic stuff to me (even things like "Yes, you're allowed to roll on loot from chests. Specially when it is for your job!"). I certainly wasnt perfect - and I outright sucked at dodging. Back then the servers were still overseas and my lag was quite bad. On top of me being quite bad myself. I recall this incident in Brayflox Longstop NM. I couldnt dodge the dragon breath of the last boss. Just couldnt get out of it. The scholar couldnt heal through the poison - and you're not supposed to do that. We wiped a couple of times til they removed me, rightfully, from that party. Given my performance we couldnt kill that boss.
Today its way, way easier to compensate for someones lack of skill or lack of trying or paying attention - and I'm not talking about dealt damage, I'm talking about dodging, tanking... heck, past level 58 my paladin can compensate the lack of a healer with Clemency - and I had to do that quite a few times already.
But non of that is "right".t
Just because three other people can compensate for your lack of whatever doesnt mean thats okay.

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We dont know exactly what happened here. Maybe he was pulling only 1 group and the others were tanking, because they were pulling it themselves.
It happen to me several times, people pulled one or two groups on my face, because they want to force speed up the run.
He made a good decision of not taking a hate from these mobs, and i believe they were dying in progress of doing so, making the run slower than it supposed to be.

1 Flash and circle of scorn is more than enough to hold the mobs aggro before they die, and he said he used both of them, so problems with holding aggro should not be the case here, if anything its them pulling stuff on their own and you could say it by the kaldea post telling dungeons could be done without a tank, should we have any more questions here?
I can bet a buck they were pulling on their own.
We dont see any reasonable explanation of any of the sides, so both sides are guilty for that bad run.
So far the only plea against OP is that he used shield lob all the time, so they complained about his performance, so about his dps, probably having less impact on the run than them messing up mechanics or typing the keyboard.

Sorry in advance for the book.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

They didn't carry him through.. they kicked him at the last moment wasting his time.... which they probably felt he was doing to them. Again... spiteful

I've played this game since 2.0 and NEVER had a group as bad as you're outlining. Sure I see poor players now and then, but not to the extent people on the forums make out... and I play a lot. I've seen only one of these ice mages people reference, and that was in 2.0.

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Your definition of "carrying" and mine are clearly different. I was literally in that dungeon and it felt like I was carrying the tank.

We didn't waste his time. He was wasting ours. 3 > 1. Not to mention, it isn't a waste since he came on here and posted about it and hopefully learned some good advice.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

beating the dungeon is what matters it's a game.

you are in the wrong for kicking even though you made it through the dungeon just fine.

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This is ridiculously inaccurate. You don't even need a tank or a healer for these dungeons. You don't even need 4 people. You may draw a line at merely participating is good enough, but for me I expect you to be a part of a team, not dragging us down due to ignorance.

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Originally Posted by xMysticx

Exactly, i would of been less frustrated if they would of just kick early mid dungeon, but instead you waste 25 minutes of my personal time just to fool me, that is a extremely rude move on your end, if your gonna kick somebody do it stop wasting other peoples time, it's not rocket science.

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You wasted 25+ minutes of our time because you didn't care one single iota about your role responsibilities or performance. I didn't want to kick you sooner because I wanted to give you a chance to put the advice given into practice. You choose not to and as such were removed. The fact that it was the end of the dungeon was merely a coincidence. It wasn't something I had planned by the minute I queued up. And I stated this before (FOR THE RECORD) I did not actually initiate the vote. Either the DRG or SMN did.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

if he was so bad they would have never made it through the dungeon. literally they were complaining he wasn't doing enough dps for them. neither story said he wasn't tanking just that he wasn't doing a proper rotation and losing dps over it making the run longer. he used flash to hold agro and used shield lob for dps cause he thought it was better than RoH combo.

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What are you talking about? I literally stated that aggro was all over the place. That means mobs were loose and hitting everyone. He did not function at even the bare minimum for a tank.

No where in my post or this discussion has the tanks DPS been referenced so I don't know why you're bringing it up. Not only that, but dungeons don't even need a tank or 4 people. They are that trivially tuned, so yes had we 3 manned from the start we would have been fine.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

The off putting part is when they kicked him, not that they did.

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So to be 100% clear (and please respond to this) you would have preferred I said nothing, kicked him as soon as 5 minutes passed? Given him no time to try and improve or take advice and no feedback into why he was kicked?

You think that is less toxic? WoW... that's backwards to me.

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Originally Posted by Maighdlin

The "when" is why I question who was really the troll. :( I'm sorry this happened to the OP. I hope the feelings don't linger.

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See my response above to Ayer2015. Please respond.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

This one's to Kaldea: are you telling me that it only dawned upon you to kick him right before the last boss? This is not a short dgn by any means and if that guy made things longer, that means there was AMPLE time to kick him.

That's what I don't get. Again, I'm not against the deicision to kick him nor am I disagreeing with not kicking at the start. It's just that, to illustrate what I mean, if you're ten minutes in and you just finished the second boss and you know that reaching the last one is gonna take another 5-10, why not kick him right at the second boss? It doesn't have to be specifically at that point but seems to me like a good point to kick someone who plays like that tank is at least in the middle of a run.

Please explain that.

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Easily. I am a positive person. I believe in redemption and wanted to give the player as many opportunities as possible and as much advice as I could without slowing down the run even more and impacting the other player's time. I truly believe he would have come around and improved.

Unfortunately I was wrong. It was immediately at the last boss gate (loot was still being rolled on) that I decided in chat "I am almost 100% ok with kicking this tank and just 3 manning the boss". The others obviously agreed and one of them initiated a vote kick as soon as we were able.

This is a direct quote and you can specifically see I wasn't 100% on board with it. I wanted to help them. I just didn't want to hold up others and try and teach someone who clearly had no desire to be helped. I had hoped that this experience would teach the OP that you need to be accountable for your performance and then planned to reach out after the run and USING MY TIME (not others) to help them, as I'm a fairly good PLD (again, currently progressing god kefka).

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

If I was the OP I'd keep you on that blacklist. If you had a problem with him then you should have kicked him then and there, not waited until the last boss.

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Just out of curiosity did you see my post response and choose to deliberately ignore it or did you just miss it?

Here's a link to it: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4603144

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Originally Posted by Aniond

Seriously.. Your tank. You will find a new group before they find another tank

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We waited approx. 2 mins before a replacement tank showed up. We were mid final boss fight, before just wiping so they could come in and one shot it with no issues.

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Originally Posted by Maighdlin

Any support I might have given you to kick the OP is nullified by this. You see it as punishment so the tank learns a lesson. I see it as abandoning someone who was being bullied and standing with the abusers. No way can I support such a decision in this particular circumstance.

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Here's the thing though, the SCH didn't actually do much that I saw as vile until literally the very end, like approx 60s before we could kick (because of loot). I had already resolved myself at that point and didn't want to change it up just because of the SCH. A report would handle that just fine. Because he was bullied in no way shape or form absolve the OP of his previous actions.

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Originally Posted by Kakiko

Kaldea, I'm not suggesting you shouldn't have kicked the tank, just that the timing (as other people said) was off. I also kind of agree with whoever said that you were taking the side of bullies, if the other two were being offensive and toxic to this tank. There's a time and a place for kicking, and leaving it right to the end makes you come across as petty and vindictive. You were right in kicking, it's the TIMING that is suspect.

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While I understand the timing sucks, I didn't have much of a choice really. If I kicked sooner, he'd never have been given a chance to improve. It'd have also likely left him less frustrated and thus he'd likely not have made this post and thus learning nothing.

Mind you, while the DRG and SCH were toxic at the end, they were not throughout the entire dungeon. They're patience broke around the same time mine did. They responded obviously more harshly than I did, but their response does not absolve the OP of his actions.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

First rule of tanking in mmo says: If team is not happy with you, you are more happy to leave them and force them waiting for a second tank another 30 years.

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We waited exactly 2 mins to get a replacement. IN those 2 mins we were almost done 3 manning the boss and then wiped so the replacement tank could get in on the action. We 1 shot it with staggering ease and went about our day.

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Originally Posted by Maighdlin

This. So much. With the bonuses, it is not hard to get to 50 while barely touching dungeons. And I do not find it impossible for no one to have said anything in that time. More than half the roulettes I participate in are dead silent even when people are obviously messing up.

For anyone wondering, I went to go look to see when Ultros was preferred. Jan 30th to Feb 19th. I'll leave it to the OP to confirm whether or not he has the Road to 60 buff or not though. If he wants...

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He would still be a sprout though no?

He was not a spout, nor a returner sprout. I indicated that in my OP.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Sorry, but kicking before the final boss when their presence wouldn't have prevented the party from completing is griefing. If the party didn't like what was going on they could have dismissed them much earlier.

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The lack of a tank wouldn't even have prevented us from completing. That's how trivial the dungeons are tuned.

I covered up above that dismissing them sooner would have been more toxic to them. They never would have learned why they were kicked and they never would have made this post and gotten help. You TRULY think it better to be kicked with no chance for improvement/redemption? How would YOU feel if you were playing poorly and people offered you tips than just flat out kicked you before giving you a chance to put those into practice? You truly think that is better?

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Originally Posted by ExKage

It's TamTara HM. If at the 2nd boss they decided they were done he could have kept pulling so that they couldn't engage in abandon either. Or the chests were open. Were they able to initiate after the 2nd boss in the first place?

Say he never got kicked. He didn't make this thread, how would he learn? Say all three of them were vile (2 of 4 confirmed while one was complicit). What came of this but the OP having a)a bad experience and b) now learning he has much more to work on?

Instead his reaction is that his time was wasted. This entire thing is a fiasco. Eventually, people snap. Could the kicker have done it at a better time? Yes.

Maybe they were hoping they would get better until finally they snapped and the only way to have the OP know that something is -seriously wrong- is to kick. Otherwise they might just leave and you might never be able to tell them "Hey you are in serious need of improvement. Please let me help you."

Edit: OP, in the future, please make sure you get and equip fending accessories. Or not mix maiming and aiming and fending.

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Bingo - 100%.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

He ignored the party (and was supposedly somewhat rude to them to boot) who disagreed with his playstyle. Neither party was necessarily in the right, but neither were entirely wrong. This falls under "difference in playstyles" which the GMs do not get involved with.

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He wasn't rude. I don't think I stated that in any of my posts. He just either ignored us or made a statement that was ignorantly inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Since the group in question put up with this tank for the entire dungeon, kicking them at the end was really pointless. It accomplished nothing, really. If I was there I likely would have voted against it. But...they were in their right to do so. Whether it was ethically right or wrong is up for debate, but the GMs likely won't interfere because it's a difference in playstyles thing.

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This post is DIRECT irrefutable proof that you're wrong. It wasn't pointless and it very clear accomplished my goal of hoping to see them improve.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

All we know is what both parties have said, if this were a court case and say he was suing the other party members, either side would have to provide proof or witnesses, so far i've seen only 2 stories and no corroborating evidence to prove that one or the other was in the wrong.

Don't be so quick to judge either side without having all the evidence.

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As I said before. I would gladly accept the OP's logs as I am 100% confident they'll absolve me and corroborate my story. I unfortunately logged out later and lost them. I didn't expect this to happen otherwise I would have saved everything 100%.

I think if you actually take the time to read the OP's posts and his responses to people and read mine, I'm fairly confident you could formulate an educated guess easily.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

That's fine, the group was right to kick them. But it didn't really accomplish anything but make them wait for a tank.

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We waited 2 minutes before finding a tank. We were mid final boss before wiping so the new tank could get in on the action.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

The Scholar should've been kicked, not the tank.

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They BOTH should have been kicked. Just because the SCH said some nasty stuff at the VERY end of the run, doesn't absolve the OP of his actions.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

The entitlement...
It's so sad that people only focuses on OP's skill instead of the kick itself.

The kick was unnecessary. OP is a new player and we shouldn't expect perfect plays from new members, and you shouldn't expect that your "useful tips" can improve their skills in 1 minute.

The persons who kicked him are entitled people who think they're good at giving tips, but the kick itself proves otherwise.
Shame on them and people who deffend arbitrary kicks like these. We're giving a bad image to new players, and this thread stinks of entitlement.

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What? OP was not a sprout nor was I expecting "perfect play". If you believe the play the OP showed even qualifies as minimum performance you'd be mistaken. I gave them tips and every opportunity to improve and they showed no interest. The kick was not arbitrary or entitled. It was flat out necessary and the fact this thread exists proves it.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

But you could get lvl 50 within 2 weeks of doing quests only with double bonus exp "road to 60" and sanctuary bonus (not sure do they stack).
Seriously, you expect these players to learn anything in that time? xD

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As I said before, if this was the case he would still be a sprout though right? He wasn't.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

They kicked him right in front of the final boss, and I think that shows the DPS and healer true intentions. I mean, they cleared the boss without tank because they didn't need him, so the problem wasn't the tank himself, yet they kicked him.
They just wanted to prove how right they are and give him a lesson with a kick, "that'll show him, hah!".

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My true intentions have been laid bare here for all to see. Don't insinuate something else when I'm here telling you exactly why I did it. You can read my other responses to people here for more context.

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

Just makes it sound like Kaldea pushing of the "I want to coach you" idea is just them trying to not sound so bad cause they had initiated the kick even though the other players were being quite rude from the sounds of it.
Either way the PLD needs to get good and Kaldea need not kick before the last boss unless it is for spiteful reasons, and if it is just own it don't muck around trying to look like the better person just makes you look worse.

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Firstly, I truly 100% don't care how I "sound". I came here to tell the truth and dispel any misinformation. Many posts here can corroborate that is not my style to worry about how "positive" I sound.

Secondly, I was exceptionally clear why I kicked them at the end. It wasn't some spiteful or vengeful act. It wasn't something I decided the first second I zoned into the instance and I DID not actually initiate the kick (I was going too though, someone just beat me to it).

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

Less then a week actually. That buff is too op tbh.

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But wouldn't you still be a sprout if he only played for a week? I'm not entirely sure of the mechanics of being a sprout. I know that I've seen low level and high level sprouts and I've seen the returner sprouts.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Its a dungeon with 90 minute mark, if you feel a tank not spamming aoe all the time makes it impossible to run, then there is something wrong with you as a dps, because your dps probably socks also if you progress so slowly.
I doubt his party was any good as well, but it was easy for them to call him, instead of looking at themselves.

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In no way shape or form did I state it was impossible. In fact quite the opposite. I stated that the tank was actually detracting from the success of the run. The DPS was fine and so was the healer who not only contributed meaningfully to DPS, but also kept 4 targets alive who were all simultaneously taking damage because the PLD wasn't doing his role.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

Everything happens for a reason, they say. If they wouldn't have kicked him, we wouldn't have this thread right now filled with people teaching OP how to tank. So I think it was a positive outcome after all.

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Bingo.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

We dont know exactly what happened here. Maybe he was pulling only 1 group and the others were tanking, because they were pulling it themselves.
It happen to me several times, people pulled one or two groups on my face, because they want to force speed up the run.
He made a good decision of not taking a hate from these mobs, and i believe they were dying in progress of doing so, making the run slower than it supposed to be.

1 Flash and circle of scorn is more than enough to hold the mobs aggro before they die, and he said he used both of them, so problems with holding aggro should not be the case here, if anything its them pulling stuff on their own and you could say it by the kaldea post telling dungeons could be done without a tank, should we have any more questions here?
I can bet a buck they were pulling on their own.
We dont see any reasonable explanation of any of the sides, so both sides are guilty for that bad run.
So far the only plea against OP is that he used shield lob all the time, so they complained about his performance, so about his dps, probably having less impact on the run than them messing up mechanics or typing the keyboard.

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You are making a staggering number of assumptions, NONE of which are actually true.

We waited for the tank to pull. Because his pulling method was simply pushing Shield Lob over and over until out of TP on a singular mob, any pulls > 1 mob aggro was on everyone else. We did not pull for the tank, nor were ANY of us dying due to pulling threat.

You owe me a buck. Post your discord info so I can PM you my paypal info. Thanks for the easy money.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Probably less lenient. :D

Aurum is a pain, esp if you are an old school hobby tank like me. Back then I didn't like mass pulling and I actually waited for a few seconds for mobs (esp patrols) to get into position for controlled pulls.

Despite never losing aggro I was eventually called an idiot and kicked. That taught me that it's apparently better to rage-face AoE pull (and risk losing aggro on a mob or two) than have the audacity of waiting for 10 seconds for a patrol to get out of range. :D

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I actually enjoy that room as a tank because I took pride in getting through that room pulling as few mobs as possible.

Yeah I'm not surprised that if you had decided to initiate kick after the first boss that loot was open or he kept engaging. I've run into both a) players who would not loot or don't know how to so it waits the entire timer out or b) players who just keep running to pick up the next set (mainly tanks).

B is usually not bad because I like a constant flow of picking up groups vs stop and go stop and go a group.

I also wouldn't be surprised if you opted to not keep moving because the only other option is leaving and I hate leaving dungeons or sitting your ass down and just stop. People would rather grit their teeth and move then to just stop because you want to lose the weak link. Like I usually end up reporting someone -after- the duty ends instead of during it if I can because I don't want to contribute to further wasting of time.

OP, I see you're in a fairly large FC. Are there any PLD mains there that would be willing to mentor you? Or people that may be willing to run dungeons with you in a premade to help you get the basics down? Or, for that matter, would anyone here be willing to do some premade runs with the OP?

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Sorry in advance for the book.

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Cropping it so it's not another wall of text, but about the sprout thing. I believe it's both 168 hours of playtime AND completion of the HW story, not or. There is a way to hide your sprout though, and even a way to remove it early.

Sounds like OP hid his sprout. Not a good idea.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

As I said before. I would gladly accept the OP's logs as I am 100% confident they'll absolve me and corroborate my story. I unfortunately logged out later and lost them. I didn't expect this to happen otherwise I would have saved everything 100%.

I think if you actually take the time to read the OP's posts and his responses to people and read mine, I'm fairly confident you could formulate an educated guess easily..

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All i'm saying is to people who're quick to judge not to be so, I don't really care who was in the wrong or who was in the right, i'm just here for popcorn basically. I do however think it's kind of a waste of time for the OP to come here instead of just putting it down in the tales from the duty finder like you did.