Paladin need to be review.

A1 savage handicaps Ast, I agree. We would have done better with SCH/WHM, but I think a large part of THAT problem was my group itself. We won the fight with (At the time) the highest parse in A1 on the server from week 1. Our ast did Zero DPS, but the WHM did 400ish. The WHM was under the impression because the AST did zero DPS, he had to compensate, which is nonsense. Our group DPS was so high (Thanks largely in part to the AST) that the WHM could just focus on healing, and when he did; we won with ease! There is something to be said of the player base not understanding the role AST has in endgame yet, because until we all got into the mentality that AST is the 'DPS healer' even though they parse zero; we had a hard time with one. Just my 2 cents as a tank who has done/continues to do savage with an AST. She's primarily healing me. In Deliverance, because real warriors don't tank in defiance!

Theoretically and in practicality, AST's buffs do NOT increase a group's DPS enough to warrant the loss of the other utility of either a WHM or a SCH. The perfect scenario for an AST's Draw is an Expanded Balance every minute, however, that's debatable to whether it is strong enough to beat Selene, especially since the cards are so heavily RNG based.

Would you rather 15 seconds of +5% damage every minute unreliably, or 30 seconds of +3% attack speed every minute reliably? I would take the more reliable source, especially since SCH can easily DPS AND that attack speed benefits healer and tank roles, not just DPS.

I agree with you on one point. AST is not a 'DPS healer'. It is a support healer. However, the buffs an AST can give are far too inconsequential, mainly in part to the RNG nature of the cards and that the cards themselves are too weak. The devs had seemingly balanced the cards under the basis that you would be getting the perfect draw every time. But you don't. There are plenty of other reasons for why you have had 'the highest parse' on your server. Maybe your actual DPS players may just 'that good'. But an AST's cards are NOT able to make your DPS superb.

However, lets make this clear. AST's first and foremost role is a healer, plain and simple. And that's where AST falls back compared to WHM and SCH.

Your WHM is both correct and incorrect. They didn't compensate for the AST's lack of DPS. They did however compensate for AST's sub-par healing capacity.

AST's have no abilities that actively increase their healing output on a single target. They have 2 limited abilities to help with shared damage; Synastry and Lightspeed, both of which are arguably pathetic for what they do. Almost all their utility is far outstripped by anything a WHM or SCH has.

Lightspeed is pathetic compared to Presence of Mind.
Synastry is pathetic compared to a SCH's PERMANENT Synastry in the form of the faerie.
Disable is the unwanted cousin of Supervirus.
Essential Dignity is the only one that can challenge its counterparts of Lustrate and Tetra, but ONLY when your target is low enough HP.
Collective Unconscious is notorious amongst the healer community for its absolute garbage benefit in Nocturnal Sect, and only slightly more redeemable in Diurnal Sect, compared to Sacred Soil and Asylum.

And AST's lack of any healing throughput increases is appalling.

ASTs have no equivalent of Divine Seal or Rouse/Fey Illumination/Dissipation.
ASTs have no equivalent of Assize or Indomitability.
ASTs have no equivalent Cure III or Deployment Tactics.

About the only 'unique' abilites AST have are Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition, one of which is pathetically useless in Nocturnal & only increase healing slightly in Diurnal (By letting your HoTs tick 15 secs longer...every 90 seconds) and the other which is pathetic for its cooldown and level attainment.

Essentially, an AST's lvl 60 toolkit is equivalent to that of a WHM/SCH's lvl 50 toolkit. Imagine a BLM DPSing without Enochian, or a DRG without BotD. Capable of content, but vastly handicapped compared to other options.

In conclusion, if your party is able to DPS and clear Savage as well as they are now with an AST, I can guarantee that they will do it better with a SCH.

And that's where my previous post comes from.

AST vs content is not the problem.
AST vs WHM/SCH is the main problem.

Your AST hasn't levelled up WHM or SCH, but I can guarantee that she will feel a major difference in the ease and usefulness of WHM and SCH compared to AST if she did, at almost no detriment - and rather, an increase - to her contribution in progression.

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Why are we even discussing AST in a PLD topic?

I personally feel that PLD is fine where it is in terms of its role as a mitigation tank. There are, however, issues I've heard from my FC's PLDs about the lack of 'excitement' of reaching lvl 60 as one.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Again, people attempting to assess any job based on content designed for 10+ average item levels from where most people are now cannot and should not be taken with great weight. Look at my Lodestone profile if you want, my point stands all the same. People are freezing out Astrologians and other jobs based on this nonsense and it needs to stop.

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It's a bit of a shame you only came back to repeat yourself instead of addressing my points about PLD's weaknesses, which you smugly referred to as "total rubbish". Frankly I don't think you should be having such strong opinions on endgame raiding when its clear from your lodestone you don't even participate in it.

You say that.. But having actually done the content with an AST, their healing capability don't feel inferior, their support if used right is pretty notable (We finished our first A2 on week 2 with 40 seconds to spare. most groups barely squeak by with a win) But yes, this is a paladin whine thread.


Paladin are fine. Theres a reason why most groups take them over a dark knight in terms of progression. The only rational complaint for Paladin is that Clemency cast time is too long and interrupt-able.

paladin is fine as it is. the only thing id like to adress is divine veil dear healers a fairy heal or a regen doesnt trigger its shield so pls use a direct heal if i go through the trouble already to macro it with a sound that you wont miss the buff

I dont know if this makes sense, but to me, why would paladin need more aoe dmg? Flash and CoS work fine. You are a paladin with HIGH def cds. You are not a warrior who needs to do dmg to leech life to make up for less def.

and this is a game where a person can be multiple jobs on one character. If you think warriors are this magical nirvana of just perfect everything.... then... play a warrior. You'll find your equally ineffective on one tank just the same as any other if you're the kind of person who sits around complaining nonstop.

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Originally Posted by AcaciaTyrannia

Right. As someone who actually tanks in Savage Alexander, I can tell you for a FACT paladin mitigation is worlds ahead of warriors.

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It's not "worlds ahead". It's a bit superior and safer yeah. But not "worlds ahead" lol. And PLDs are not required for A3S for instance it's even the contrary. It's required having DRK/WAR in order to beat the DPS check because for instance we are heavily undergeared for it. Or at least it was until everyone got their 200 weapon. Still don't know about what it is now.

In some situations, WAR's mitigation uptime can be more efficient than a PLD's. As a WAR back in before 3.0, in T13 I switched from OT to MT once we got it on farm to get more deeps from SwO PLD. Healers were pretty surprised to see that they had an easier time dealing with me than with PLD for the simple reason that I can IB every single flare breath where the PLD always takes full damage and keeps its CDs for tank busters. As WAR I was able to IB every single flare breath AND using CDs to mitigate busters ON TOP of IB. If you really think PLDs mitigation is "worlds ahead" WAR, you're completely wrong. PLD is just safer during progression and easier to master. Tho it's still a freaking good tank and doesn't really need to be improved.

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Originally Posted by Peekachu33

Snip for Char count

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The loot system for Alex Savage is basically designed to last for at least 2 months already. You need 8 tokens from the last turn to get a guaranteed piece of loot, that's 8 weekly resets. Even if only a small group of statics can complete them ASAP, I doubt the vast majority of the raiding community will have absolutely no reason to raid Alex Savage by 3.1.
It's assumed that if the content is in the game, it's designed to be possibly obtainable and beaten, better gear and iLevels just lowers the barrier for entry significantly.
Stares at Dusk Leather

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Originally Posted by AcaciaTyrannia

Snip

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My static has been running WAR and DRK, probably going to clear A2 this sunday. DPS isn't a problem at all for us, but getting into position for the 4 Jagd doll wave, and the wave after (7 and 8?) requires them to be very precise with their mitigation to survive. I imagine a PLD would have an easier time.

Could use an enmity buff. The enmity generation of similar moves is terrible compared to WAR and DRK.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

My static has been running WAR and DRK, probably going to clear A2 this sunday. DPS isn't a problem at all for us, but getting into position for the 4 Jagd doll wave, and the wave after (7 and 8?) requires them to be very precise with their mitigation to survive. I imagine a PLD would have an easier time.

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You can imagine, but you and your group know that Goblin insanity only last for short amount of time where tank take absolutely ZERO dmg by time they are kill in time, and Paladin don't make that deal happen as easy since they can't perform well in multi-target damage.

WAR and DRK is the reason your group has no DPS problem. Many seem to forget that PLD have of course strongest CD, but the recast time is insane long, and they have absolutely no way to leech HP, and that enough to stress the healer by a huge factor.

Hallowed Ground is best Tank CD ever, but is 7 minute recast for a little 10 sec invincible. Sure that would be way superior if A2S had ONLY one massive wave to handle, but the fact is, A2S have 9~ Wave, and last 10 min long, so is good if you can use this once. (Unless you insist to use HG on the first 2 golin in the initial pull >.<)

Now i don't know if you ever tght about it, WAR in defiance have 25% MORE HP and 20% healing bonus, is the same as having Shield Oath active. (Of course is not working for lustrate, but do we really care? WAR with 5 wrath get 10% Crit + Internal release = 20% + they base Crit Rate, pop berserk and hello 6 to 11k HP return with Equilibrium then hello 2~4k HP with Second Wind, and that is every ~1 min >.>

So what else is left to compare?

Sentinel(40% for 10 sec) = 3 min recast, can be use 3 time max in A2S
Vengence(30% for 15 sec) = 2 min recast, can be use 5 time in A2S

Rampart(20% for 20 sec) = 1 min 30 Recast, can be use 6.5 time in A2S
Inner Beast (20% for 6 Sec) = 22.5 sec Recast, can be use 26x in A2S (And i am ignoring the FREE one you get every minute with Infuriate etc..)

Raw Intuition (Parry 100% for 20 sec) = 1 min 30 recast, can be use 6.5 time in A2S
Bulwark (Block increase by 60%... for 15 sec) = recast 3 min, can be use 3 time per A2S

Hallowed Ground (Invincible for 10 sec) = Recast 7 min, can be use once per A2S
Holmgang (HP can't go less than 1 HP for 6 sec) = Recast 3 min, can be use 3 time per A2S

Storm's Path is yet another 10% reduction on single target.
Rage of Halone, reduce STR by 10%, so is very similar by time monster is not magic.

Thrill of Battle, increase HP by 20% for 20 sec. (every 2 min)
There is Nothing like that on PLD.


So ya, if you pay attention to this, you figure quick that PLD have for fact stronger CD, but the recast time penalize them by a lots, and if they are constant active tanking, they are quickly left with zero CD.


Anyway, i never asked to FIX PLD Deffense/Recast time, i can deal with that part, but the lack of AoE DMG make the job feel totally rubbish, like there is no "DEFFENSE" superiority in trade of low DMG, that is mega false statement that people keep bring back.

So if I understood the OP right, they want more aoe damage for paladins?

Each class is different (VERY SLIGHTLY) paladins are not aoe/damage tanks. In no mmo I've played was the paladin a damage/aoe type tank. There's different classes for different reasons. Why does everyone have to be the same? You want aoe/damage? Go Drk/War. You want block and mitigation? Go Paladin.

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Originally Posted by Terribad

So if I understood the OP right, they want more aoe damage for paladins?

Each class is different (VERY SLIGHTLY) paladins are not aoe/damage tanks. In no mmo I've played was the paladin a damage/aoe type tank. There's different classes for different reasons. Why does everyone have to be the same? You want aoe/damage? Go Drk/War. You want block and mitigation? Go Paladin.

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Remove the Flash resist would also fix the issue, so we can be back "superior" DEFENSIVE tank with lack of AoE DMG.

Each class have to be different, i cannot disagree with that. But if the difference prevent you from clearing content, just because the JOB is not suited for it, then sorry but there is a big problem.

It use to be true that PLD has superior defense, but is not that case in A2S, not even close to be the case, and i explained why in previous post.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

Remove the Flash resist would also fix the issue, so we can be back "superior" DEFENSIVE tank with lack of AoE DMG.

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Removing flash resist or lowering the resist works as well. I feel like people in this community don't know how to ask for proper changes, adjustments. It's mainly "Nerf this to the ground please" or "Make my job exactly like x job please".

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Originally Posted by Terribad

Removing flash resist or lowering the resist works as well. I feel like people in this community don't know how to ask for proper changes, adjustments. It's mainly "Nerf this to the ground please" or "Make my job exactly like x job please".

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Giving Flash an AoE dmg would instant fix the issue for now and later on (is not like SE will ever make monster RESIST dmg)

or

Changing Shield Swipe for a Conal attack, would also fix the problem, the more monster you tank, the more DPS you can do in return, and the more enmity you can generate.

Edit: Give me 1 good reason that PLD should generate they enmity without any DMG dealt? (while flash is resisted) and don't forget the fact that we get 2.5sec penalty that prevent us to do any kind of dmg. (the penalty return is very absurd)

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Originally Posted by Terribad

In no mmo I've played was the paladin a damage/aoe type tank.

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Actually, in WoW, Paladin was a very, VERY good AoE damage tank. They had AoEs to put on the floor, AoEs that radiated from the paladin, and had a multi-target Shield Lob. It would hit three targets. They even had an AoE stance, that would allow any single target melee attack to splash onto any nearby targets. They also had a massive set of tank CDs to pull from, including one that made you invincible, like Hallowed Ground. So, yes. AoE Paladins have definitely been a thing, and I wish that Paladins here would have had at least ONE spam AoE spell that did damage.

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Originally Posted by Isala

Limit soz.

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In no mmo I've played was the paladin a damage/aoe type tank.

I wouldn't consider what I did in WoW to be actually "playing it". Raf'd to lvl 80 in 17 hours, exactly.

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Give me 1 good reason that PLD should generate they enmity without any DMG dealt? (while flash is resisted) and don't forget the fact that we get 2.5sec penalty that prevent us to do any kind of dmg. (the penalty return is very absurd)

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Simple, SE obviously doesn't want PLDs as aoe damage types. Every needs to stop going "Oh x got that so I should get that too" please leave the differences in the jobs. Everything else already feels the same with different skins. I think instead of asking for PLD to be just like everyone else, ask for better defensive buffs/defensive. I feel PLD should defensive Gods, yet for some reason they feel squisher than WARs.

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Originally Posted by Terribad

I think instead of asking for PLD to be just like everyone else, ask for better defensive buffs/defensive. I feel PLD should defensive Gods, yet for some reason they feel squisher than WARs.

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See, that's what we're getting at. The skill set we gained in HW was to shore up the weaknesses that every class had, but the biggest weakness for PLD, their lack of AoE, was not something we had fixed. They gained more single target DPS, yes, but they didn't gain a single AoE ability.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

Raw Intuition (Parry 100% for 20 sec) = 1 min 30 recast, can be use 6.5 time in A2S
Bulwark (Block increase by 60%... for 15 sec) = recast 3 min, can be use 3 time per A2S

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Don't forget that the Paladin has Sheltron as well, which Blocks the next physical attack for 10 seconds with a 30 second cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

Each class have to be different, i cannot disagree with that. But if the difference prevent you from clearing content, just because the JOB is not suited for it, then sorry but there is a big problem.

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When a Paladin doesn't deal "proper" AoE damage, doesn't mean it's not suited for the Job.

The point of being a tank is to divert the attention of a mob from the rest of the group, so that the damage is mainly focused on the Tank. And that's exactly what a Paladin, Warrior and Dark Knight does. How they go about it varies per class. Every Class has it's own strengths and weaknesses. For the Paladin it's weakness is a lack of dealing AoE damage, but it gets a great defense in return. But, that specific kind of play style suits me perfectly.

Giving flash damage is just... Wierd. The skill is meant for blinding the opponent for a short amount of time, while generating hate. It's like shining a flashlight in someone's eyes. It doesn't physically hurt anyone. So, why should Flash suddenly deal damage? Because we can't get passed a dps check? Or that Paladin's had a harder time keeping hate?

People are focusing way too much on the DPS checks in my opinion. Yes, we all need to push ourselves to the limit and squeeze out every single dps digit we possibly can. However, people have already cleared A2S with the classes as they are, so it is possible. Yes, i play a Paladin as well and i see that i'm having more difficulty keeping hate on a group of enemies, when i compare myself to a Warrior.

But, if we aren't able to copy their achievements, then shouldn't we look as ourselves as see what we are doing wrong, rather then complaining that a Paladin doesn't deal enough AoE damage?

Sure, we all want to beat it. But, from my perspective, this is getting silly...

I mean, Alexander Savage was released while the max iLevel you could get was 189. The raid drops iLevel 210 gear and we can save up Tomes for iLevel 200 gear.

This is not what people will want to hear, but... If we can't clear it with our current composition and gear, we need to train more while getting better gear. Eventually we too are able to clear the content.

Other players have been able to clear A2 Savage within the first few days of it's release. So, it's possible. But it's sure as hell not going to be easy.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

For the Paladin it's weakness is a lack of dealing AoE damage, but it gets a great defense in return.

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On what you base that argument, i am curious? Flash is resisted, so don't even count on it to defend you. Compare to other class that can AoE DPS + leech HP, how PLD even match that? PLD have Clemency, how that is even possible to use against multi-target?

Please elaborate your sentence, because i don't even see how PLD have greater defense against multi-target encounter.

Nothing prevent war to use Equilibrium for 6~11k HP restore, and is OFF GCD, so is Second Wind, WAR defensive cool down recast are way faster. But ya, please explain me how PLD have stronger defense, because i don't see 1 solid argument plausible.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

For the Paladin it's weakness is a lack of dealing AoE damage + lack of AoE defense. it gets a great defense in return.

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That is more correct.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

People are focusing way too much on the DPS checks in my opinion.

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Tell that to Yoshi, not to me. I never asked to be in a DPS rush to stay alive. More DPS turn out into LESS damage taken, is not a complex system. With bloodbath, the more DPS you do, the more HP you get back, is a simple mechanic and every JOB except PLD can take advantage of multi-target.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

Don't forget that the Paladin has Sheltron as well, which Blocks the next physical attack for 10 seconds with a 30 second cooldown.

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Please. tell me you where not serious with this... 10 second maybe, but is only 1 block guaranteed, is a joke with 5 monster on you. Any small difference count, but, please don't compare that with longer Raw Intuition effect + quicker recast + 100% guaranteed. This isnt serious. I mean, nice it return MP so we can flash more for 0 DMG, and fail to cast more Clemency.


In revenge, make Shield Swipe a Cone attack, and Sheltron would make a real difference on multi-target, so is for Bulwark.

All DRK AoE is magical, Bloodbath is only physical. It has limited performance in multi-target for DRK. Abyssal Drain's Dark Arts requirement comes at a MP cost that takes away from other DRK abilities - especially DA > Passenger. Blood Price is not guaranteed MP return (is the WHM using Holy?) so a rotation can not be fleshed out. Elsewhere WAR has CDs & WS rotation for AoE that is locked & synergy between all those abilities for added mitigation, self healing, & DPS. WAR > DRK > PLD AoE.

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Originally Posted by Isala

See, that's what we're getting at. The skill set we gained in HW was to shore up the weaknesses that every class had, but the biggest weakness for PLD, their lack of AoE, was not something we had fixed. They gained more single target DPS, yes, but they didn't gain a single AoE ability.

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^I think that's the case for some classes, like SMN MNK, but not all, and even then some abilities just aren't well integrated or don't entirely 'fix' the weaknesses - or introduce new weaknesses. The 52-60 abilities are hit and miss for a lot of jobs. Regarding PLD:

All but Royal Authority are 1.0 GLA crossovers. Sheltron is a nerfed Aegis Boon. Divine Veil is a 'better' Divine Succor (but Succor generated hate, Veil doesn't), Clemency is about the same but slower due to 1.0's faster GCD. Goring IMO is the one skill crossover'd effectively. Clemency, Divine Veil, and Royal Authority - any of these 3 I'd trade for War Drum or Phalanx.

The problem with War Drum & Phalanx is I feel that for 3.0, they'd serve better as Job Traits that enhance Shield Swipe, CoS, or Clemency, but 3.0 there are no job traits

Also, the fact that Royal Authority is the lvl60 ability, is 'new', but offers no additional effect buff or debuff is disapointing IMO.

Sheltron just needs to get changed to block the next attack in general. There are attacks that we can block / parry but Sheltron only works for autoattacks pretty much.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

On what you base that argument, i am curious? Flash is resisted, so don't even count on it to defend you.

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The Blind effect is resisted, not the generation on Enmity. You keep clinging on the idea that Flash needs to deal damage. But, like i said in my post. That just doesn't make any sense.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

Compare to other class that can AoE DPS + leech HP, how PLD even match that? PLD have Clemency, how that is even possible to use against multi-target?

Please elaborate your sentence, because i don't even see how PLD have greater defense against multi-target encounter.

Nothing prevent war to use Equilibrium for 6~11k HP restore, and is OFF GCD, so is Second Wind, WAR defensive cool down recast are way faster. But ya, please explain me how PLD have stronger defense, because i don't see 1 solid argument plausible.

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The thing is, Clemency is not a healing ability, but a healing spell. Due to this, it has a casting time and can be interrupted when attacked. So, you can't really compare a healing spell with an ability like the Warrior is using and thus cannot be considered a defensive ability. It's a support spell which heals the target with a potency of 1200 with the additional effect that it restores the Paladin's health with 50% of HP restored to the target if target is a party member.

Since you the tanks are the primary targets for their heals, you should not have to use Clemency on yourself, but could rather be used on another party member between pulls.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

Please. tell me you where not serious with this... 10 second maybe, but is only 1 block guaranteed, is a joke with 5 monster on you. Any small difference count, but, please don't compare that with longer Raw Intuition effect + quicker recast + 100% guaranteed. This isnt serious. I mean, nice it return MP so we can flash more for 0 DMG, and fail to cast more Clemency.

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Yes, i am serious about Sheltron. Even though it only blocks 1 physical attack, it still a guaranteed block once every 30 seconds. Since it's off the global cooldown, it's silly not to take advantage of it. Heck, you even get MP back for Flash and Clemency. So, yes. I'm dead serious about that skill.

And finally, you also have Divine Veil. It prevents damage up to 10% of Paladin's max HP for 30s on all party members within 15y for 30s (except for the Paladin who casted it). You can use that so that your fellow party members will get less damage, including the off tank.

So, when it comes to defensive abilities, a Paladin has:

• Rampart
• Sentinel
• Bulwark
• Awareness
• Convalesence
• Foresight
• Divine Veil
• Sheltron

It is our job as Paladins to use these skills wisely.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

Tell that to Yoshi, not to me. I never asked to be in a DPS rush to stay alive. More DPS turn out into LESS damage taken, is not a complex system. With bloodbath, the more DPS you do, the more HP you get back, is a simple mechanic and every JOB except PLD can take advantage of multi-target.

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No, i'm not telling that to Yoshida. I'm telling that to everyone who are currently saying that the DPS check it too high and that classes need to be rebalanced in order to get passed the said DPS check. I've read the forum posts where people are saying you get less damage because you kill your target faster. While that is true, you must never lose sight of survivability. A tank needs to take a beating, the healers need to keep everyone alive and the DPS need to squeeze every digit of DPS they possibly can. If both the healers and the tanks have more breathing room outside of their primary goal, then they can assist the DPS with the damage they can dish out.

Dishing out 7000+ DPS on (for instance) Faust is great, but if a tank can't survive the beating or the healer cannot keep up, then it doesn't mean anything.

Like i said in my previous post:

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Originally Posted by Aldora

But, if we aren't able to copy their achievements, then shouldn't we look as ourselves as see what we are doing wrong, rather then complaining that a Paladin doesn't deal enough AoE damage?

Sure, we all want to beat it. But, from my perspective, this is getting silly...

I mean, Alexander Savage was released while the max iLevel you could get was 189. The raid drops iLevel 210 gear and we can save up Tomes for iLevel 200 gear.

This is not what people will want to hear, but... If we can't clear it with our current composition and gear, we need to train more while getting better gear. Eventually we too are able to clear the content.

Other players have been able to clear A2 Savage within the first few days of it's release. So, it's possible. But it's sure as hell not going to be easy.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

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Originally Posted by Aldora

For the Paladin it's weakness is a lack of dealing AoE damage + lack of AoE defense.

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That is more correct.

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I'm sorry, but "lack of AoE defense"? Now you are starting to grasp as straws and i'm finding it hard to take your comments seriously.

Alexander Savage is meant to be a challenge and if you cannot meet the DPS check, just because you believe that a Paladin doesn't deal enough AoE damage and thus is not suited for the job, you might want to rethink your strategy as a group. If you still believe that the Paladin is not suited for the job, then i'm really sorry, but i can't help you there. You can still give Dark Knight or Warrior a shot.

I've said all that i wanted to say here.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

So, when it comes to defensive abilities, a Paladin has:

Blocking
Parrying
Rampart
Sentinel
Bulwark
Awareness
Convalesence
Foresight
Divine Veil
Sheltron
Hallowed Ground

Cover
Shield Bash
Shield Swipe (meh, maybe not)

Stoneskin
Clemency
Protect

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Agreed. Added a few of my own.

- There's no contest once you throw a Paladins ability to block into the mix
- If Divine Veil counts as a Defensive Ability (for the party) then I would include Cover as well.
- On mobs that can be stunned, Shield Bash is one of the greatest Defensive Abilities in the game.
- Hallowed Ground OP


Spells
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Stoneskin and Clemency are spells but they are still Defensive spells. Spells which can be cast before Tank Busters. Nothing is hitting you during the Hypercompressed Plasma cast bar in A1 Savage. It's incredibly easy to cast a Stoneskin or Clemency right after he frontal Cleaves you. Bosses have invincibility phases too; any downtime for a Paladin can be turned into stoneskinning defensive support. Stoneskin your healers or people with resurrection sickness. I would toss Protect on the list too, as when someone dies to mechanics, it's usually best for a Paladin to recast Protect mid-fight rather than the over-worked Healers.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

For the Paladin it's weakness is a lack of dealing AoE damage, but it gets a great defense in return. But, that specific kind of play style suits me perfectly.

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So i asked you >.>

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

On what you base that argument, i am curious? Flash is resisted, so don't even count on it to defend you. Compare to other class that can AoE DPS + leech HP, how PLD even match that? PLD have Clemency, how that is even possible to use against multi-target?

Please elaborate your sentence, because i don't even see how PLD have greater defense against multi-target encounter.

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So once again, i ask you to elaborate... how PLD turn out to be MORE DEFENSIVE again Multi-Target while we have weaker AoE against them.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

I'm sorry, but "lack of AoE defense"? Now you are starting to grasp as straws and i'm finding it hard to take your comments seriously.

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Fine.. then you wont have any issue to explain me how PLD have better defense compare to WAR and DRK on multi-Enemy.

Here to help you out to see my point:

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

Hallowed Ground is best Tank CD ever, but is 7 minute recast for a little 10 sec invincible. Sure that would be way superior if A2S had ONLY one massive wave to handle, but the fact is, A2S have 9~ Wave, and last 10 min long, so is good if you can use this once. (Unless you insist to use HG on the first 2 golin in the initial pull >.<)

Now i don't know if you ever tght about it, WAR in defiance have 25% MORE HP and 20% healing bonus, is the same as having Shield Oath active. (Of course is not working for lustrate, but do we really care? WAR with 5 wrath get 10% Crit + Internal release = 20% + they base Crit Rate, pop berserk and hello 6 to 11k HP return with Equilibrium then hello 2~4k HP with Second Wind, and that is every ~1 min >.>

So what else is left to compare?

Sentinel(40% for 10 sec) = 3 min recast, can be use 3 time max in A2S
Vengence(30% for 15 sec) = 2 min recast, can be use 5 time in A2S

Rampart(20% for 20 sec) = 1 min 30 Recast, can be use 6.5 time in A2S
Inner Beast (20% for 6 Sec) = 22.5 sec Recast, can be use 26x in A2S (And i am ignoring the FREE one you get every minute with Infuriate etc..)

Raw Intuition (Parry 100% for 20 sec) = 1 min 30 recast, can be use 6.5 time in A2S
Bulwark (Block increase by 60%... for 15 sec) = recast 3 min, can be use 3 time per A2S

Hallowed Ground (Invincible for 10 sec) = Recast 7 min, can be use once per A2S
Holmgang (HP can't go less than 1 HP for 6 sec) = Recast 3 min, can be use 3 time per A2S

Storm's Path is yet another 10% reduction on single target.
Rage of Halone, reduce STR by 10%, so is very similar by time monster is not magic.

Thrill of Battle, increase HP by 20% for 20 sec. (every 2 min) [Restore 20% HP as well]
There is Nothing like that on PLD.

Equilibrium 6k to 11k HP return
Clemency 100% interrupted against multi-target

Second Wind 2~4k HP
Stoneskin 100% interrupted against multi-target


So ya, if you pay attention to this, you figure quick that PLD have for fact stronger CD, but the recast time penalize them by a lots, and if they are constant active tanking, they are quickly left with zero CD.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

If you still believe that the Paladin is not suited for the job, then i'm really sorry, but i can't help you there. You can still give Dark Knight or Warrior a shot.

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Sure, that make sense, when a job is unbalanced/unsuited for new content, just stop play the job and move on till next content. Following you analogy on this, WAR would still be at 2.0 with no defense, sure we could all be trolling and say: "But WAR is not mean to mitigate dmg!"

Bulwark, best multi target defensive cd there is.
Raw intuition is nice, but if you have to dodge anything your gonna get a bunch of crits from autoattacks from not being in the front.


I'm happy with pld as is , except for Clemency cast time / interrupt and sheltron only blocking auto attacks


*coming from a pld who beat A2*
I have no issues with cds in a2 at all timing wise.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

So what else is left to compare?

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A Paladins ability to Block is a pretty massive benefit for multi-enemies. I would also compare the fact that a Paladin is very straight-forward, easy, mitigation.


Warrior has a far riskier play style. Do you Steel Cyclone a pack of adds in AS2 to beat enrage? Do you pop a six second Inner Beast instead? It only lasts for 6 seconds in a wave that is pounding you senseless for 30 seconds. Will Inner Beast be ready in time for the next double-doll cleave? With Raw Intuition activated and a second nearby bomb about to explode do you run away and take massive crits? Popping any of your healing abilities at the wrong time simply become massive over-cures because your healer beat you to it. Holmgang is useless if you never drop to 1 HP; and its root can sometimes get you (then your party) killed. Lot's of risky game play for an equal result if played perfect.

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Originally Posted by Desteroth

Raw intuition is nice, but if you have to dodge anything your gonna get a bunch of crits from autoattacks from not being in the front.

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Awareness

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

A Paladins ability to Block is a pretty massive benefit for multi-enemies. I would also compare the fact that a Paladin is very straight-forward, easy, mitigation.


Warrior has a far riskier play style. Do you Steel Cyclone a pack of adds in AS2 to beat enrage? Do you pop a six second Inner Beast instead? It only lasts for 6 seconds in a wave that is pounding you senseless for 30 seconds. Will Inner Beast be ready in time for the next double-doll cleave? With Raw Intuition activated and a second nearby bomb about to explode do you run away and take massive crits? Popping any of your healing abilities at the wrong time simply become massive over-cures because your healer beat you to it. Holmgang is useless if you never drop to 1 HP; and its root can sometimes get you (then your party) killed. Lot's of risky game play for an equal result if played perfect.

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They have the choice to risk it, or play safe, none the less, they can adjust they play style at anytime they wish, and that without any single penalty [switch from Deliverance to Defiance don't cancel any combo, and still keep stack, it have 0 negative effect]

Every 22.5 sec, WAR have choice to Steel Cyclone [200 AoE Potency] or Decimate [280 AoE potency] , or Inner beast [Rampart effect for 6 sec] and they even get extra one every 1 min with infuriate, and i am not even going to talk about the extra 3/5 stack they get from Vengeance, Berserk, and Raw Intuition.

Regardless, PLD have no Rampart every 22.5 sec and no AoE DMG.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

Awareness

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Now your using 2 cds for the almost same effect of one cd. Raw intuition will still not do anything unless you are facing the target Directly. Bulwark will work no matter which direction the mob is hitting you.

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Originally Posted by Desteroth

Now your using 2 cds for the almost same effect of one cd. Raw intuition will still not do anything unless you are facing the target Directly. Bulwark will work no matter which direction the mob is hitting you.

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LOL, well At least, that was a funny joke =)

But no, as much i would like this to be true, Shield work same as Parry, only work if you face encounter, fail on flank and back, same as Raw Intuition.

This is also the case for Sheltron, won't block anything until you face the target.

In Revenge, AoE attack are considered "all direction" and is blockable.

In Theory since an AoE is all direction, Raw Intuition should still parry + get a CRIT hit at same time. but no, they just parry the attack. [not going to argue about this small detail]

and here I thought because of all these complaints you didn't know paladin that well. damn

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Originally Posted by Desteroth

and here I thought because of all these complaints you didn't know paladin that well. damn

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so when you are wrong, you were right to be wrong? Very valid argument.

So basically the op wants PLD to be the most optimal tank in all situations. PLD already has better mitigation than the other tanks with comparable single target dps, and now you want PLD to also have comparable aoe damage as well? Can't we just accept PLD for what it is instead of trying to make all of the tanks the same?

In 2.xx PLD was the preferred tank in just about every encounter because they are just the best at mitigating damage; and now that 3.1 is out with the Alex Savage raids WAR and DRK are getting a shot in the lime light because of strict dps checks. That's all there is to it. It's not a problem at all, it's just the way the content is right now.

PLD's were the kings all through 2.xx, just because PLD is no longer the absolute definitive choice right now, while we are at the near minimum ilv requirement for Savage mind you, doesn't mean PLD needs a buff. Give the other tanks a chance to be on top for once, PLD had all of 2.xx.

Remember 3.xx just started. I'm sure there will be content in the future of 3.xx that will shift the 'optimal' tank meta back towards PLD again.

Besides it's not even like PLD isn't viable, AS2 has been beaten with a PLD so it renders this entire argument moot.

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

Remember 3.xx just started. I'm sure there will be content in the future of 3.xx that will shift the 'optimal' tank meta back towards PLD again.

Besides it's not even like PLD isn't viable, AS2 has been beaten with a PLD so it renders this entire argument moot.

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Even A3S is beaten with PLD and WAR btw I agree with u, tanks now are pretty balanced well

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

So basically the op wants PLD to be the most optimal tank in all situations.

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No...

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

PLD already has better mitigation than the other tanks with comparable single target dps

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Slightly better mitigation on SINGLE target, less DPS than WAR.

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

you want PLD to also have comparable aoe damage as well? Can't we just accept PLD for what it is instead of trying to make all of the tanks the same?

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Ok, can't we remove all defensive modification SE made on WAR since 2.0, so we can make all of the tanks not the same? (Do i sound silly now?) but is a fact my friend.

Giving AoE to PLD is not to make all tank the same, but to fix something that should have been fixed since 2.0, but it was never issued...

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

In 2.xx PLD was the preferred tank in just about every encounter because they are just the best at mitigating damage;

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Not even TRUE.. Since when RAID group was using only 2 PLD? I am sorry, but every group was using PLD + WAR as it bring more utility and more DPS.

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

That 3.1 is out with the Alex Savage raids WAR and DRK are getting a shot in the lime light because of strict dps checks.

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2.xx never had any massive multi-encounter where WAR defensive/offensive end to be way superior to PLD.
3.1 bring up the choice for your RAID group, PLD+WAR, PLD+DRK or WAR+DRK, it never been the case in 2.xx, and since PLD bring no AoE power plus no defensive advantage in multi-target, why people would go PLD + ___?

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

That's all there is to it. It's not a problem at all, it's just the way the content is right now.

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Ya exact, i should just stop play PLD, and be more graceful. Work as intended.

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

PLD's were the kings all through 2.xx, just because PLD is no longer the absolute definitive choice right now, while we are at the near minimum ilv requirement for Savage mind you, doesn't mean PLD needs a buff. Give the other tanks a chance to be on top for once, PLD had all of 2.xx.

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Wow, because people was not inviting WAR in T1-13, Sorry to tell you this, but in what world you were playing?

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

Remember 3.xx just started. I'm sure there will be content in the future of 3.xx that will shift the 'optimal' tank meta back towards PLD again.

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I asked an AoE that is less powerful than DRK and WAR, i never asked PLD to be 'optimal' tank. You hate PLD is clear, and for you PLD can just die, i get it...

I suppose i take the problem the wrong way, and i should OPEN a new tread asking for WAR Nerf as they get more mitigation than PLD on multi-target. Please get real when someone is asking a simple change that is not messing up other Tank class, don't be a PLD hater.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

Slightly better mitigation on SINGLE target, less DPS than WAR.

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I love how one-sided your arguments are.

PLDs do 200 to 400% less AoE damage than WAR and DRK (your words, not mine) but then only have "slightly" better mitigation on single target, lol.

Now I'm not saying that PLDs have 200 to 400% better mitigation, but I think it's a few steps above "slightly".

I find it funny that as a Warrior Main, I'm fine with PLD buffs, but there's a wall of no coming from every direction. Paladin is no longer the king of defense everyone thinks it is. It actually loses HEAVILY in that category when there is magic damage involved. You can neither block, nor parry magical damage, which negates several CDs on all tanks, but also completely nullifies any use a Paladin gets out of their shield. In addition, Rage of Halone affects STR, not Int, while a Warrior lowers all damage by 10%, and a DRK lowers Int by 10%. I'd even go so far as to say they're hardly even the best physical tank anymore, with both DRK and WAR gaining access to parry based CDs, in the form of Dark Dance, and Raw Intuition, making Bulwark look sad in comparison. In the time it takes a PLD to get Bulwark back, a DRK has used Dark Dance 3 times, and a WAR has used Raw Intuition twice.

Oh, but what about raw defensive CDs, you say? Oh yes, the PLD's bread and butter. Good old Rampart, and Sentinel. 20% for 20 seconds of 90, and 40% for 10 seconds of 180. Looks like the DRK might lose, with 20% for 20 seconds of 90, and only 30% for 10 seconds of 180. Except, oh, wait. They get an ability that reduces all MAGICAL damage taken by 30% for 10 seconds of 60. Where's PLDs magical damage stopper? They don't get one. Even the Warrior has more uptime on their raw mitigation CDs. Inner Beast is 20% reduction for 6 seconds, and can be up almost every 20 seconds, if you don't use CDs to bring it up sooner. It also heals. And Vengeance is 30% for 15 seconds of 120, which also gives you a Wrath stack to use on... Guess what, Inner Beast. And, it acts as a damage reflect, which can be combined with Bloodbath for healing. WAR gets the superior version of that, too, lasting twice as long as a tank that crossclasses it.

Speaking of Bloodbath, let's compare the crossclass Tank CDs. Obviously, Bloodbath, which is 25% of all physical damage you do as a heal, for 15 seconds on a non-WAR, who gets it for 30. Awareness, which stops critical damage you take, gives a 10 second boost to PLD, being 25 seconds instead of 15. Convalescence is also 30% boost in healing on a PLD, compared to 20% for DRK or WAR, except simply by virtue of being a WAR in Defiance, the WAR already has a base 20% boost to all healing taken. There is also Foresight, which is a 90 second CD on a Warrior, rather than the 120 second CD on any other tank.

Those are the tank CDs that all tanks get a chance to share. DRK gets access to both WAR and PLD abilities, allowing them to take from both tanks. But what do WAR or PLD get? WAR gains MNK abilities, such as Internal release, to increase critical chance, something a WAR is already very fond of. They also get Second Wind, for a self heal, that while not as powerful as Equilibrium is still nothing to sneeze at. A PLD? Stuck with CNJ abilities. For the sake of discussion, I'm going to assume we all realize how useless Cure, Protect, or Raise are. Which leaves Stoneskin. Which is an okay CD. 10% of your HP in a barrier. It's alright. Something to take the edge off a hit. PLD does get a nice ability there. The cast time, on the other hand, suffers the same problem as Clemency. It's too long. In the time it takes you to cast it, you could easily be interrupted, since it's your face that's currently being beat on.

So, tell me again, how the PLD is the king of all things defense. Because yes, for a time, they were the Alpha, and Omega of Main Tanks. The undisputed champion of getting their face beat in. But fights are shifting. And the tanks themselves are shifting. Both WAR and DRK bring a fairly massive toolkit to the fight, especially in a magical damage environment, something the PLD is not equipped to deal with. There are AoE fights, on top of that. Again, something the PLD is not equipped to deal with. This talk of "The Paladin trades off AoE damage for being the best defensive tank" is not only wrong, it's sad. Because they are no longer the best defensive tank, not with the balancing that SE did in 3.0. But while both WAR and DRK got ways to deal with the upcoming raids, and how they were designed, PLD got more of the same. More ways to be a physical wall. And finally, a way to cause fairly decent damage. Both of those were a GOOD thing. But the one thing that a PLD is horribly, horribly bad at, AoE tanking, was left in the dust. That's why we are asking for a little bit of damage. A PLD doesn't have to compare to DRK and WAR. It has its niche. But to completely exclude it from doing any damage during an AoE intensive fight? That just seems like an oversight.

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Originally Posted by Isala

Convalescence is also 30% boost in healing on a PLD, compared to 20% for DRK or WAR, except simply by virtue of being a WAR in Defiance, the WAR already has a base 20% boost to all healing taken.

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This is a very poor comparison to make as it completely ignores that both PLD and DRK in their respective tanking stances take less damage.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

This is a very poor comparison to make as it completely ignores that both PLD and DRK in their respective tanking stances take less damage.

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A WAR also has 25% more HP in their tank stance, and a stacking Parry buff. I'd say the two together equals the reduction in damage taken, even before the 20% boost in healing.

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Originally Posted by Isala

A WAR also has 25% more HP in their tank stance, and a stacking Parry buff. I'd say the two together equals the reduction in damage taken, even before the 20% boost in healing.

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Lolno. There's a reason why the healing boost was taken away from Wrath stacks and added to Defiance.