Take it easy on the Nerfing :/

Hopefully Alexander XM will never get a nerf, since the whole point of having 2 difficulty levels was to appease both sides

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

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Liked and agreed with the whole post

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

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I can sympathize completely with your situation with the toned-down raid. You wanted to experience the full-tilt version and are saddened that you 'missed the boat' so to speak. Again get you 100%.

What i personally don't agree with and will possibly cause some to take umbrage at is the assertion you make in your second post that everyone OK with the SoF adjustment is automatically for nerfing the whole game into the ground as you state at the very end. Which is false btw. It is not an all or nothing thing here, i mean you even say it yourself in the first post.

Optional content can be old-school, Phantasy Star on crack hard. And it should be. And folks that want that should be able to enjoy it as much as they like. Required content, not so much-it should be designed for the greater majority of players. Its not like the two ideas have to be mutually exclusive and can't both be implemented in the same game. Right?

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Originally Posted by Lovescake

if you're NOT raiding, why would you ever need these.

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I love trolling people with this logic on raid gear.

T12 drops weapons and armor, but you clearly don't NEED those weapons and armor to raid, since you don't get them until after you clear the raid. We shouldn't let raiders have dreadworm weapons, because they don't need them to raid.

The simple reason why this content gets nerfed is that it contains story that SE wants the player base to experience. In the future, they will work harder on having "savage" difficulties with no nerfs and pure challenge. But SE is smart enough to realize that they shouldn't hide 80% of the game and story behind a level of "challenge" that most players will never pass.

In the case of Steps of Faith, there are no rewards for replaying the content, and people who get stuck in it during a daily trial queue typically quit group because they don't want to deal with a 10 minute wipe. The only people doing it are people trying to finish the main storyline prior to 3.0, and as we get closer to Heavensward, that bottle neck will be more and more of a problem.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Apparently communicating with your party members is too hard

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If you're mocking people saying such, then clearly you either only run with pre-formed groups, or you have the luckiest DF combinations you can get. I find it rare that a DF group is willing to communicate, and even rarer when they're willing to help players who haven't done whichever run they're in before. Most just try to rush ahead and get it done with quickly and proceed to bash the new players for not knowing what they should be doing even though they have no reason they should know what they're doing, before rage quitting after just a couple of failed attempts with no effort made to help resolve the issue beyond blaming everyone but themselves. Truth be told, now that I think about it it's no wonder there are so few players willing to talk, since the elitist, speed running, players instantly go straight to bashing on anyone who does anything slightly differently than how they would like.....

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Originally Posted by Spiritreaver1217

Required content, not so much-it should be designed for the greater majority of players. Its not like the two ideas have to be mutually exclusive and can't both be implemented in the same game.

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Exactly! This is why the Extremes, Savages, Coils, and side-content such as Odin were created in the first place. Hard content should exist, but not everything needs to be hard.

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

I love trolling people with this logic on raid gear.

T12 drops weapons and armor, but you clearly don't NEED those weapons and armor to raid, since you don't get them until after you clear the raid. We shouldn't let raiders have dreadworm weapons, because they don't need them to raid.

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This is called a reward.

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Originally Posted by Spiritreaver1217

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It's just a feeling that I get and feelings are not always right and I am glad people are telling me I am wrong it will make me feel better regarding this whole thing. I only hope I have time to slowly enjoy 3.0 story and its casual content because I don't want to rush to end game just to try to beat out inevitable nerfs. I've only been playing FFXIV for 6 months now and I didn't start doing coils until February. I like to take it slow through stories and exploring new lands but once I'm at end game I want to work through the optional raid content with other people and try to achieve victory against the odds.

I really don't know how long I have after 3.0 before nerfs happen again with that raid content but I don't want to feel pressured to rush through all the content just to get to end game before nerfs happen because that will destroy my immersion and enjoyment of the game world.

Again, I am speaking as someone who really hasn't been around SE long enough to understand how they do things that is why my post just now may sound overly paranoid. If someone can ease my paranoia a bit instead of taking my post as if I'm stating facts which I am not.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

This is called a reward.

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"Bragging Rights Reward"
A reward for beating something that is the apex of the game's difficulty.
Like Emerald and Ruby Weapon's drops in VII. By the time you beat them, there's nothing left in the game to challenge you.
Coil is currently the same way...though with the progressive nature of MMOs, the equipment will eventually give them an edge.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

Again, I am speaking as someone who really hasn't been around SE long enough to understand how they do things that is why my post just now may sound overly paranoid. If someone can ease my paranoia a bit instead of taking my post as if I'm stating facts which I am not.

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SE will always introduce difficult content.
They will also always nerf content that is intended to be beaten by a majority of the players, but isn't being beaten in such a way.
Outdated content will have Echo added to it to facilitate beating it for players who may not be "top" and need to clear it after the "Gravy Train" has moved on from it.

Our current "era" in the game, the "2.55 era", is a very unusual time. In the past, and likely in the future (because this gap has been a disaster and it's only by virtue of it being technically split between two fiscal years that SE has been able to get away with it)
Usually, the old raid content only had echo and nerfs applied in the month or month and a half leading up to the introduction of the next wave of content, as a means to help people get geared up for the next stage. For example, FCOB has quite high item level requirements, so to make sure there were actually people DOING the content beyond the super hardcore raiders, they made gear acquisition easier.
In this time...the pattern stays the same but it's all going to be rather irrelevant with everything getting an increase.

In other words, this current environment is an anomaly probably not planned by SE in the first place, since their original projected date for 3.0 was "Spring"

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

I love trolling people with this logic on raid gear.

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The same logic can be used against you, dear. If the raiders don't need the raid gear to raid, then the entire player base doesn't need the gear to raid either. Guess that means that raids should never exist. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

If you're mocking people saying such, then clearly you either only run with pre-formed groups, or you have the luckiest DF combinations you can get. I find it rare that a DF group is willing to communicate, and even rarer when they're willing to help players who haven't done whichever run their in before. Most just try to rush ahead and get it done with quickly and proceed to bash the new players for not knowing what they should be doing even though they have no reason the should know what they're doing,

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Except they do have a reason they should know what their doing, it's called "FFXIV you-tube memorization or gtfo of here online", because your wasting "our" time.

Meanwhile hardcores scream bloody murder about content nerfs, hmm isn't having forehand knowledge of a fight sorta making it easier?, guess that's twice off-topic now.

This doesn't sound very "hardcore" to me, or casual for that matter, I don't consider watching you-tube into wee hours of the night "casual".

Hardcore I suppose "if" your the content "first" clear group, who then makes the video, everyone else claiming hardcore status because they memorized a video are to me just hot air.

The guys/gals who did it "first", "cold", those are the "real" deals.

Long threads about who's actually wasting who's time on this matter have already been argued, I hate this you-tube warrior or gtfo mentality.

This is just another reason, (a big one imo), that community is so unwilling to help, and are so acidic and/or so unsocial.

The only reason I probably wont ever be forced out of my FC for commiting the ultimate sin of not having memorized every instance before I get to it is, my son is the FC leader.

And he refuses to do it either.

We either learn it the hard way cold, or we gtfo, as a FC at least.

Wonder sometimes what happened to chat, or now headsets in games, well no matter, if you have it you-tube stamped on your brain, who cares?.

"But Lore" is right. Did the Ishgardians not battle the dragons before and obtained strategies on how to combat them? I'm pretty sure they did, or they wouldn't have weapons called "Dragon Killers".

Oh, so you want a challenge? I would suggest finding a different game then... or clearing content in the first month it is released because right after that people who want everything immediately and without effort will cry enough for it to be nerfed.

I really love how SE really listens to our feedback. I just sometimes wish that casuals were a vocal minority or that they atleast had more understanding for challenge seeking players too. :D

If there isn't enough challenge for you in 3rd coil (although nowadays, even that may be lessened somewhat by Echo so I will point you to 2nd coil Savage instead), then this game may just be too easy for you overall.

The challenge of the game is never going to be in the main storyline. This doesn't just apply to MMOs, even single-player RPGs are like this. It's the optional bonus "post-game" content that is where the challenge usually lies.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Oh, so you want a challenge? I would suggest finding a different game then... or clearing content in the first month it is released because right after that people who want everything immediately and without effort will cry enough for it to be nerfed.

I really love how SE really listens to our feedback. I just sometimes wish that casuals were a vocal minority or that they atleast had more understanding for challenge seeking players too. :D

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Wait till HW. Alexander normal will be faceroll in DF, alexander hard is meant to be harder than coil is now, so there will be no middle ground, just faceroll and static content. Then they will be complaining no one does PF groups for the hard stuff because it's too hard for PF and only statics can do it and then it'll get nerfed some more.

Raising the average skill level of the community is too hard, lowering the content difficulty is easy and loses less subscriptions.

Sucks, but oh well.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

Then they will be complaining no one does PF groups for the hard stuff because it's too hard for PF and only statics can do it and then it'll get nerfed some more.

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Though SE will have no reason to nerf Alexander Hard (Savage mode, for example, is left untouched... even though the rewards are not worth it). I feel SE only gave Coil the Echo (and hardcore nerfed Second Coil) because there was only one difficulty and it had a story that was a sequel to the 'To Kill a Raven' storyline. With Alexander, people playing for the story will get to experience it and people playing for the challenge will get their challenge. If people whine about the challenge, well... tough luck. SE aren't going to nerf something that will give better rewards than the Normal encounter (if it drops anything, that is).

I do hope with HW, they'll release story/normal and (actually) hard mode dungeons together. "Expert" roulette really needs to live up to its name...

Though if SE were to nerf Alexander Hard, then they're catering to the Carried (refuse to learn and listen) players. Casual players at least try to learn the fight and listen to feedback, suggestions and advice.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

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If the gear from Alexander hard looks different/is dyeable as well as having more stats than the gear from alexander normal, I guarantee you people will be complaining that it is impossible for them to obtain this gear because it is only do-able with a static and 'not everyone has time to no life the game omg'

Calling it right now, I'll quote myself on it in like 3 months time.

And yet I still have to double weather window, quadruple mooch pray to RNGesus and offer up my first born for fishing.

Fishing is the real end game, coil is easy.

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

If you're mocking people saying such, then clearly you either only run with pre-formed groups, or you have the luckiest DF combinations you can get.

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You missed the sarcasm on the first part of the sentence. You'd think that making it italics would make it obvious, but nope. :p

Anyway, this fight is all about communication. You yourself gave yourself an answer; communication in some DF groups is terrible. This is why the Steps of Faith is such a unique case when it comes to discussion. It is by far the first encounter in the MSQ where you are forced to communicate and no amount of skill will help you there. You get players from both sides with toxic and elitist behavior. "Screw you, I do what I want," is the most common denominator from both parties.

Well, for the people that started late and want the challenge, all you have to do is just playing catch up to the current content? I mean, once you reach current content, you will have all the time in the world(until nerf) to do your challenge content.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Steps didn't need a nerf, it just needed to be placed in the correct roulette.

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I find it hilarious ... because most players who've cleared it won't ever want to do it again. The players who complain the loudest about the nerfing are also the same players who quit right at the start of the trial, before pulling the boss, as well as those players who never went back after they cleared it. The dichotomy is always full of players crying about shit that doesn't affect them directly, kind of like people crying over gay marriage.

all you have to do is play through 150 hours of boring content to catch up.
Then you get to enjoy 4 instances with some difficulty. There is something for everyone this game.



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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Yo, calm the heck down. You reek of elitism.

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Far from it, considering I don't do Coils, I don't even do the Crystal Towers (only once for clears for story), EX or anything else that requires more than a couple of brain cells. If people want a challenge, that is what EX, Coils, etc. are for. Trials tied to main story shouldn't even be in the same space as those raids due to the fact that you don't have any gear or token rewarded for the effort (other than the normal scraps thrown to people so SE can tell them that they technically are being rewarded for their time)

I would raid and do all of that, but I wouldn't come in here crying a river over nothing. There are better fights to be had and this isn't one of those. Like getting rid of Echo from Coil and preserving the difficulties in many raids and non-main story dungeons.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

hat the OP is discussing is a legitimate concern. It isn't pointless in the slightest.

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What legitimacy is there? Read my response earlier before you edited your post. If you think you see something legit, then think again. I would understand the outrage if SE told you that they were nerfing coils across the board and allowing players to get the best gear in the game through Poetics and hunts. That is not what is happening here. A nerf to SoF is not the same as welfare gear to Tom, Harry and Janet so that they can get into EX trials and breeze through them. This isn't the same thing at all.

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Originally Posted by Discordia

Read my response earlier before you edited your post. If you think you see something legit, then think again.

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The OP is asking for one additional dungeon that introduces a challenge, or making one of the three introduced dungeons have a higher difficulty with higher rewards. I see nothing wrong about a suggestion to add more difficult content. It isn't the end of the world if they added more either. Though, I guess you probably didn't read the OP properly. Meh. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

The same logic can be used against you, dear. If the raiders don't need the raid gear to raid, then the entire player base doesn't need the gear to raid either. Guess that means that raids should never exist. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Why would "not needing gear" equal not "needing a fight with bahumat"? That sounds like the most boring video game ever.

But I'm only joking with people that insist they need something only for raiders or pvpers by being literal with the word "need".

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Where's the Challenge?

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Tried Savage SCoB in i110 gear?

I'd like categorize content in three main groups.

Group 1: casual-friendly
Content that can be cleared with some difficulty by people with less than average knowledge of their job, and if someone with no clues is in group, anyone with more knowledge will make-up for the missing things. People with average knowledge will get this cleared without major issues, and a group of expert players will faceroll/farm it.

Group 2: learn-the-basics
Content that requires at least an average knowlegde of your job. Some mechanics have to be handled correctly or the group will get hard time or worse, wipe. Dps or healing checks may be in effect but not so much hard, average rotations and a little more attention by healers and tanks will make it cleared. Casuals under average will not pass it until they learn how handle things, or some expert will make up for the missing things. An expert group will have content on farm mode and may skip some mechanics without casualties.

Group 3: endgame
Content that requires every member knows its job and handle correctly all the mechanics present. The clear will be hard to get if someone falls under the "very good" line. Some content at the very end of the game may have higher requirements, up to "near perfect" to be able being cleared. Missing a mechanic is not an option. Casual and average players will not make this, and hardly may meet just the requisites to enter this content. Expert groups will faces wipes and takes their time before put this content on "farm" status.

SoF were falling clearly into group 2. And all main scenario duties must be into group 1, because the game itself is sold as casual-friendly.

With time, everything that is in Group 3 will be nerfed to have it in group 2, and eventually when gets more older, even goes to group 1.

FcOB were in group 3 for some time, to let expert players have their own fun. Now that content has been decided it is time to let more people see it, and has now put into group 2.

Have FcOB in group 2 now, means that SE wants have much more players enjoy the existing content, before release the new one with the expansion, that will release new group 3 content to make the expert people have new fun.

Take this as one-month recap ;) But always take on mind that when content gets older, it will be declassed to let it being experienced by the casuals too. Expert people will be busy on new shinies and hardly they still run there.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

The OP is asking for one additional dungeon that introduces a challenge, or making one of the three introduced dungeons have a higher difficulty with higher rewards. I see nothing wrong about a suggestion to add more difficult content. It isn't the end of the world if they added more either. Though, I guess you probably didn't read the OP properly. Meh. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Pharos sirius sort of like that when it was released and no one would run it. Get it in roulette and people quit, just like in steps of faith. I'd like more challenging dungeons, but no one is going to run them if there are easier alternatives.

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

bahumat

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Sorry, I lost it here. xD

That aside, yes, I am trying to tell you that it would be the most boring video game ever. Those content have to have good rewards otherwise nobody would really do them. The gear and items that they drop are those rewards; the incentives. Thus, SE needs to put some kind of reward so that players would do it, or risk otherwise that nobody would dare touch it again. The Steps of Faith is a good example. There isn't much of an incentive to run it more than once, and it was considered difficult content - which is why we have players abandoning the trial if they get it through the roulette.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Brill_

Pharos sirius sort of like that when it was released and no one would run it. Get it in roulette and people quit, just like in steps of faith. I'd like more challenging dungeons, but no one is going to run them if there are easier alternatives.

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Note; "higher difficulty with higher rewards."

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Anyway, this fight is all about communication.

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Communication never turned bad players into good players.

The only communication needed in SoF (before nerfs) was to assign roles and tell what each role had to do. After that, it all falls into the hands of each individual player to be good at their assigned role.
Getting in a DF with bad players who can't do their job properly would way more often than not lead to a failed SoF run. And that happened a lot.

Initial communication was important, yes, but it never was the only key to victory in the end. You needed communication and at least average players.
No communication or below average player and your run would be a failure.

You clearly didn't run it enough in DF if you don't understand why I'm saying that.

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Originally Posted by wicked-one

It is funny you refer to Steps of Faith as "older content" ^^

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My quoted post wasn't solely about Steps of Faith, more that the nerf which hit the fight is a result of their current game model. With old content becoming obsolete rather quickly, the emphasis seems to be on getting all players to the same level. That means making the story content as streamlined as possible as well, so that when Heavensward is released people can access the expansion quickly.

When everything becomes a fast-track to the endgame, it's not hard to see why even recent content is being hit by the nerf bat to keep players from being to far behind.

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

T12 drops weapons and armor, but you clearly don't NEED those weapons and armor to raid, since you don't get them until after you clear the raid. We shouldn't let raiders have dreadworm weapons, because they don't need them to raid.

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I may have completely misunderstood what you're trying to say.
But OK, you don't need the loot that drops from t12, to beat t12, as obviously you just have.... but surely the loot you get in coil is preparing for content to come?

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

What about players who want a challenge, but started the game too late? :p

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I'm confused. We're near the end of ARR. Is there no challenging content right now? Steps was all that was "challenging" and now it's nerfed so that leaves us with nothing until the expansion?

edit: Nevermind. Having coffee and finishing the thread. It does appear there are challenges already for those who wish to partake in it.

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Originally Posted by Discordia

I find it hilarious ... because most players who've cleared it won't ever want to do it again. The players who complain the loudest about the nerfing are also the same players who quit right at the start of the trial, before pulling the boss, as well as those players who never went back after they cleared it. The dichotomy is always full of players crying about shit that doesn't affect them directly, kind of like people crying over gay marriage.

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I haven't read all the pages here, but I think this is an assumption some have made about those that are unhappy with the nerf.

Speaking only for myself, I DFed SOF soon after it was released, we went in, someone who had obviously already cleared it told us all what each of us needed to do, we did it, and moved on. You may argue that the nerf does not impact me in any way, and to a certain extent it doesn't. I am not concerned with locking anyone else out of content or story or anything like that, my concern is simply how quickly this content has been nerfed... barely a month after it was introduced, SE have deemed it too difficult for our playerbase, and nerfed it.

This is a concern to me, as I wonder if next time they are about to release something, they may reconsider and think "wait... this might be too difficult, remember SOF, our playerbase won't be able to do this, let's make it easier". I do not want content to gradually decline in difficulty, especially if it gets to the point of being "nerfed" even before it is released. I'm hoping SOF is a special case, being that it is MSQ, and does not set a precedent for nerfing content so soon after it has been released

The quick nerf it most likely because the expansion is only a handful of weeks away.

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Originally Posted by Lovescake

The issue should never be "its old now, lets nerf it." because the challenge should stick around regardless otherwise players will never adapt and progress in their class, there's a reason why people don't get further in raid content and that becomes obsolete after a few months.

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SoF was pretty easy the first couple weeks, then had a huge spike in difficulty when all the overgeared people were past it. The only people doing it were people that needed it, and most of them barely met the minimum ilvl. That lead to people dropping asap on entering, making the difficulty much, much harder than it was when the rest of us went through it.

If it wasn't a roadblock for the entire expansion, then they could have left it for a raise in level/ilvl to ease it up.

The challenge is the communication among players...That is the biggest hurdle this game has...

The answer to everything even though its not relevent but they still say it..."LORE" but yeah I dont think they need to nerf everything in this game I mean geez we understand catering to the new players but dont nerf every single thing :/

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

I may have completely misunderstood what you're trying to say.
But OK, you don't need the loot that drops from t12, to beat t12, as obviously you just have.... but surely the loot you get in coil is preparing for content to come?

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Yeah, I know. As I said, it's just me messing with people. I think I started teasing people who said that dreadworm weapons were only "needed" by raiders when zodiac weapon was announced as having a final ilevel of 135. It just irks me a bit when someone insists that only THEY "need" a reward. And you've got to admit, the idea that you get the best gear from the hardest content is strange when you consider you just beat the hardest thing.

Nerfing SoF feels like it goes against what SE has been saying about easing new players from level 1 all the way to the very 'end'. While I honestly would like the 'casuals' to lay off the raiding content and stop from trying to chop the tree far faster and shorter than I would like, it would be much better if the player skill bar just be raised and have more people try and succeed in the 'hard' content instead of just clamoring to get it nerfed.

The gradual content difficulty as you consume content (based on chronological release and content type) feels like it climbed from 0 to 20 over a long time and then shoots up to an 80 like a cliff right now. I personally believe that SE should make that curve go from at least a non optional 0 to 50 so that they won't have as much trouble getting used to the difficulty when they try to get to coil tier content. I mean, honestly, who doesn't want to experience the game has to offer if there's no irl matters to be concerned about?

People can say that content I already beat doesn't matter to me but I would beg to differ. I'm in a small fc but I get a new player as a member sometimes. I can help them through all the combat content but I still can't prepare them for what's to come when all the content outside of the latest set of raid are all marginalized to such a degree. If I would like said new player to join me in tackling content that is still very much relevant to me, said player would be far from prepared and the stress on said player to perform at the level required is huge, I think.

Also, I've talked to an online friend experienced in mmos who tried the trial but didn't want to continue because everything was a snoozefest to him. I felt that his various complaints were legitimate and I felt like it was hard for me to tell him that it gets 'better' because as the game grows older, the tall trees just keep getting cut down and the distance he has to travel to get to the forest just keeps increasing and I'm not even sure if it'll be worth it for him. It feels really conflicting to me that I've played a game for this long but can't honestly recommend it to anyone since I've been able to experience most of the content at its prime and anyone I made to try the game will just experience the double diluted version (insane ilvl jumps + echoes + nerfs).

I'm fine with the rewards from challenging content matching the difficulty. In the case of Steps of Faith, they opted not to include a reward to match the challenge, and instead reduced the challenge. I think they were concerned about "no soldiery bonus" farm groups forming in party finder if they added a rare TT card or a pony.

I beat Steps of Faith on the 2nd day after 16 tries. Nobody knew wtf they were doing that first day. By the second day a lot of us had been hammering at it for 24 hours straight and had figured out their roles. All it takes is 3/4 of the party knowing what they are doing to let this fight be easy - because it's a mechanics driven fight, and those six people are needed to run the mechanics. But when you had those six people rage quitting as soon as they got it in trials roulette, you lost all that experience.

New players who want a challenge will get it in Heavensward. Old players are already passed Steps and got their challenge.