So Second Coil has been destroyed

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Originally Posted by Xensai

We don't WANT it for just us We want more experienced players in the game nerfing content like this just allows people to skate by.

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Although I do agree that they should not change it that much that even a dumb player can just clear it. I still it to be challenge because you are right, it still is satisfying to beat a hard game. But hey this is an MMO the game will change eventually.

To reiterate what I mentioned in another topic.. It's far too early for anyone to be celebrating. Most of the mechanics by the looks of it do not seem to be touched in the slightest. Also, the patch notes do not actually tell us how much damage is reduced. For all we know, Blighted Bouquet could be reduced from 10,000-ish to about 6,000-ish damage which will still kill people if they do not pay attention nor have the minimum HP requirement to survive that hit. Same thing applies with the Hornets, Discipline and the Renauds. They may be able to still kill people if they do not pay attention. T8 looks to have been barely touched as well, so there's that. I'm semi-okay with the petrify being adjusted because it was hell to go through learning and farming the fight.

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Originally Posted by RinKaen

This guy knows what's up. You don't get satisfaction clearing piss easy content. YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST PEOPLE.

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because there's only two options: "we can get instant wiped because someone was in the wrong spot for shriek" and easy

also, hey, savage coil.

Seriously, the difficulty setting hypocrisy is ridiculous. If you're actually concerned with challenging content this shouldn't bother you because this wasn't top tier content, and since Turn 9 was only slightly touched by echo it's not like you'll suddenly have a wave of non-ready players trying to get into your Final Coil statics.

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For all we know, Blighted Bouquet could be reduced from 10,000-ish to about 6,000-ish damage which will still kill people if they do not pay attention nor have the minimum HP requirement to survive that hit.

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Also this. Which I've iterated before.

Haha, whine all you want, nerfs are happening and if first coil nerfs are any indication, they are here to stay. So I'll just be laughing all the way to T9, thanks by the way for bashing your heads against second coil for 9 months, I'm sure those strategies will come in handy.

I don't see that they have very much choice if they're going to put the content in the Duty Finder, because otherwise the random chance of failure due to one single person is too high, and it's a bad experience for the others using the duty finder no matter how skilled they personally are. So basically any full-party content in the Duty Finder is going to be designed so that it can generally survive one somewhat-bad apple (though maybe not more than one).

Perhaps the solution would be to create three tiers for this content: progression, original, and savage. Only Progression would be in the Duty Finder. That way people who still want to experience the original have a chance if they put together a party, but people who use the Party Finder can have an experience that takes into consideration the age of the content (to assist story-related catch-up).

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Maybe they could nerf it to such an extent that all you arrogant elitists leave the game at which time they bump it back up to more reasonable levels when your gone.

The content is around 9 months old, you have both savage mode coils and final coils to keep you elitists busy and challenged. SE are doing the right thing making very old content easier for people to catch up on. People who still want the more extreme challenges can opt for savage or final coils, the only reason anyone would be against this is if damages their clear selling or they are simply egotistical, arrogant or elitist trying to keep people from doing something they have long since potentially surpassed. If you have not cleared it and want the challenge you still have that in the other mode and in the later coils.

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Brilliantly said, Snuggle... I dont think I could have said it better. +1 to you.

To the pathetic arrogant elitists who are irritated because more people can now have a chance at clearing content... (and thus, diminishing your precious revenues from selling clears)... you are either childishly delusional or too wrapped up in your perceptions of grandiosity not to have seen this coming.

Allow me to shatter your bubble even further: In gaming concepts, there is a very important spectrum element called "FLOW"... or what some game designers call "Cognitive Flow". Every excellent game needs it as a solid way to respond to players general level of skills or else they lose players. FFXIV is no different.

The basic psychology behind this is simply that if a game is too hard, people become frustrated and leave... and if its too easy, people get bored and also leave. Thus the "Flow" is that comfort region where you find your skill niche and are happy to continue playing the game.

In FFXIV, the timing for easing the difficulty for Second Coil was due... and the Devs know this very well; which is why I totally support this move. Actually, I even think it should have been implemented since when 2.4 launched but thats also debatable. Less than 5% of the player base has cleared Second Coil and thus, their Flow is to have the challenges of Final Coil and Second Coil Savage Mode. For the remaining majority of the players base, their Flow is to challenge Second Coil (at least until Crystal Tower stage three emerges in 2.5).

This helps to maintain the player base and establishes the groundword for how to help even newer players achieve progression... emphasis on the word "helps" because there are still many other factors at play; but that's another topic entirely.

So yeah Elitists... quit yammering and whining just because more players now have a chance at getting that High Allagan loot you've been soooooooo proud of obtanining... (if that loot is what defines you in the game then you've missed the point completely). At the end of the day, SE needs to constantly expand player numbers and show a bank balance thats in the black... get with the program.

Funny thing is, everyone (casuals, elitist, complainers, what have you) is going to log into the game after the patch, que up for SCoB find out for themselves how much easier it is and be content about it. Because u know what? it's more efficient now to get what u want out of it. Just enjoy the ride lol.

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Originally Posted by Gralna

Haha, whine all you want, nerfs are happening and if first coil nerfs are any indication, they are here to stay. So I'll just be laughing all the way to T9, thanks by the way for bashing your heads against second coil for 9 months, I'm sure those strategies will come in handy.

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This Here is the reason why people who want to learn and want to do the so called "hard" content can't

I also feel that nerfing one-hit-kill mechanics is a valid choice in a game as plagued with latency/lag issues as FFXIV is. I've been in numerous Titan and Levi EX runs where people with multiple clears under their belt got sent flying off the platform due to unfortunately-timed lag spikes, and some of these were people who were using VPNs specifically to try to combat the latency. No one wants to be That Person who causes a raid-wide wipe due to something that was out of their control.

Nobody even does savage coil. I'm no try hard especially not for achievements. I like the original mechanics, now doing scob is either not worth it or not worth it.

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Originally Posted by Xensai

We don't WANT it for just us We want more experienced players in the game nerfing content like this just allows people to skate by.

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I know this argument is going to be brought up a lot, so I'd just like to point out that T9 is untouched. T9, even with echo, will in no way be faceroll and if you can make it through T9 you'll be fine in T10, then T11, etc. etc. The main problem is that there is a decrease in difficulty going from T5 to T6, and that remains relatively steady until you reach T9 where the difficulty spikes up majorly. This is the same problem nerfed T1-4 had, it did not prepare people for T5. Nerfed T6-8 will also not prepare people for unnerfed T9.

So, there's still a brick wall in place for FCoB, as there was with SCoB. If you're worried about people getting carried through, that was a thing way before Echo.

How, exactly, is it "elitist" to believe other players are able to clear these turns without nerfs?

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Originally Posted by Ramesses

So yeah Elitists... quit yammering and whining just because more players now have a chance at getting that High Allagan loot you've been soooooooo proud of obtanining... (if that loot is what defines you in the game then you've missed the point completely). At the end of the day, SE needs to constantly expand player numbers and show a bank balance thats in the black... get with the program.

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Well said. We all want challenges hence Fcob + We all want this game to last long hence change outdated content for casuals = longer game lifespan

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Originally Posted by RinKaen

Nobody even does savage coil. I'm no try hard especially not for achievements. I like the original mechanics, now doing scob is either not worth it or not worth it.

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If only we are in the same server I would want to dpo savage too but yeah no body is doing it sadly, maybe now more will play it idk.

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Originally Posted by Gralna

So I'll just be laughing all the way to T9

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The adjustments alone look like they changed a lot, but the fact is, the changes are pretty minimal at best. You won't be laughing your way to T9, sadly, because you're going to still bash your heads on T8 which requires a crap ton of team coordination, especially with the enrage timer, Dreadnaughts, Defensive Maneuvers, Ballistic Missile, Allagan Field, Brainjack, and Homing Missile not being adjusted in the slightest. T6 still has the Vines, Briars, Blighted Bouquet (Still may cause massive damage), Devour, Rafflesia's damage stacks, Honeys, Slugs, and Rotten Stench going for it , so there's that. T7 obviously still has their add phases to boot which is pretty taxing on the healers, Fireballs from Melusine, Renauds being linked to one person if they hit it by accident, Venomous Tail, Voice and Shriek, and the enrage timer which can be easily reached if people keep getting petrified.

I'm cool with this. It'll make it easier for me to farm the gear I want from T7 and T8 without having to have my static online or getting really lucky in PF/with friends. I will admit that I'm very happy I cleared T6-T8 before the nerfs, but I'm alright with the fact that the content was made easier. It was bound to happen at some point and anyone that believed to the contrary hasn't paid much attention to the update history for BCoB.

T9 is going to be the same massive roadblock that T5 STILL is for some people, and I welcome that challenge. ^^

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Originally Posted by Rieze_Xeero

If only we are in the same server I would want to to savage too but yeah no body is doing it sadly, maybe now more will play it idk.

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If half these people arguing they want difficult content actually are interested in difficult content, they'll be moving onto doing Savage instead.

That said, I'm sitting at fine with these nerfs because my goal isn't so much clearing Second Coil as it is clearing Savage Coil. Hell as it's going to be to find people interested.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

You won't be laughing your way to T9, sadly, because you're going to still bash your heads on T8 which requires a crap ton of team coordination

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I don't disagree, T8 will still be challenging and it's probably the least touched turn in terms of difficulty, but just 2 things I wanted to point:

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especially with the enrage timer

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Echo.

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Dreadnaughts

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Echo.

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Originally Posted by Rieze_Xeero

Well said. We all want challenges hence Fcob + We all want this game to last long hence change outdated content for casuals = longer game lifespan

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Indeed, indeed... the whiners just whinge because they're so immersed in themselves that they have no understanding of the much bigger picture.

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

If half these people arguing they want difficult content actually are interested in difficult content, they'll be moving onto doing Savage instead.

That said, I'm sitting at fine with these nerfs because my goal isn't so much clearing Second Coil as it is clearing Savage Coil. Hell as it's going to be to find people interested.

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I agree with you dude. As long as I know that my subs is well spent I'm happy and as long as others are happy with the game... that is pretty fine with me. I love final fantasy and I want this game to last long

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I know this argument is going to be brought up a lot, so I'd just like to point out that T9 is untouched. T9, even with echo, will in no way be faceroll and if you can make it through T9 you'll be fine in T10, then T11, etc. etc. The main problem is that there is a decrease in difficulty going from T5 to T6, and that remains relatively steady until you reach T9 where the difficulty spikes up majorly. This is the same problem nerfed T1-4 had, it did not prepare people for T5. Nerfed T6-8 will also not prepare people for unnerfed T9.

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Many people seem to forget that point. Yes, turn 6-8 have been nerfed, but turn 9 will still be a wall to many people, and for good preparations against the final coil.

Instead, people jump the drama boat to early. We still have lots of people who haven't cleared turn 5, and it is still challenging because of its one shot mechanics.

BCoB's mechanic nerfs were to address the random matchups in DF such as a party without silence for 1/2 and a bad distribution of phys/magic dps for 4.
These nerfs are something else entirely.

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

If half these people arguing they want difficult content actually are interested in difficult content, they'll be moving onto doing Savage instead.

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To be fair, there are the middle-ground people who love the pre-nerf difficulty, but are not interested in the savage difficulty.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I don't disagree, T8 will still be challenging and it's probably the least touched turn in terms of difficulty, but just 2 things I wanted to point:


Echo.


Echo.

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10% is nothing.

i am a little sad to see such large nerf's.

i am behind on content because i was on a 5 month break, so have been training in t6, spent at least 8hrs in there and almost got it down.. I want to beat it while it's still difficult, being mindful when blighted bouquet hit is a major mechanic, i guess it depends by how much the damage is reduced, i know that our tank survived it without the echo and reduction lol.. and the bees, well they are a way to get DPS working together, slow down or wipe the party on phase transition.

the problem with these nerf's is, you can turn echo off, you can't turn nerf's off

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

If half these people arguing they want difficult content actually are interested in difficult content, they'll be moving onto doing Savage instead.

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Nobody is asking for harder content. We want the content we've been beating our heads against for 9 months. I'm still beating my head on the wall against t9,do you think I want to do savage coil?

Also the answer to the elitist question is, you're an elitist if you're against nerfing content.

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Originally Posted by Leadleaf

BCoB's mechanic nerfs were to address the random matchups in DF such as a party without silence for 1/2 and a bad distribution of phys/magic dps for 4.
These nerfs are something else entirely.

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Following SE's logic, I don't agree with the T6 nerfs but I can understand where T7's come from. T8 is sort of a gray area, but I imagine it's to compensate for the lack of coordination DF groups will have (like everyone running to the same landmine and no one grabbing the last one).

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Originally Posted by Mutemutt

Snip

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Like anything else technology related, XIV will be a moving target.

I try my best not to classify people. It's frustrating when you see people (and this thread is an obvious example) who get upset when other players are now clearing content they did 9 months ago just to be able to clear it and move on in a game that we are all paying for. We aren't getting any better gear or benefit from it other than the fact to simply be able to move on, and I fail to see what is so wrong with that. ...and someone's statement about pugging this content with casuals...wow. Just wow. See why it's easy for me to classify people? You wouldn't be pugging this content anyways, and if you eliminated most of the player base you wouldn't even have a game to able to pug on, would you? :/

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Echo.

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Towers. The dreads and enrage timer are easily remedied by the Echo, and I concede to that, but if nobody can do the towers properly and they charge up to maximum at the same time, Atomic Ray will kill them all. This also includes the landmines if nobody pays attention to them because if even one of them is left up for too long, it will explode and kill the raid. :x

as smn, i loved t7. it was my place where i could shine ; ;
why they make nice fights to destroy them after ?? damn you SE :(
i loved to go t6-8 again and again with pugs in pf, what s the point if they become some HM primal-like :(
i guess all that remains is new primes and t9 :/
more time for me , wont have to teach scob to fc now lol

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Originally Posted by Mitracia

10% is nothing.

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Will only get bigger, and 10% is quite a lot. It's not huge, and you can't just close your eyes on Dreadnaughts, but with i100/i110 gear being so easily obtainable and a 10% boost on top of that... I can't see people managing not to kill Dreads or beat the enrage timer. Things would have to go insanely sour for that to happen, which I won't discount as impossible, but just really unlikely.

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Towers. The dreads and enrage timer are easily remedied by the Echo, and I concede to that, but if nobody can do the towers properly and they charge up to maximum at the same time, Atomic Ray will kill them all. This also includes the landmines if nobody pays attention to them because if even one of them is left up for too long, it will explode and kill the raid. :x

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Yeah, it was only those two points I wanted to point out the Echo for, the others aren't so easily fixed.

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Originally Posted by Mitracia

10% is nothing.

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10% damage increase for the entire party over the entire duration a fight is huge. I guess Heavy Thrust is awful on Dragoon too and Trick Attack vulnerability effect should just be ignored.

I like how people are either frothing with rage or giddy with joy over really sad pet issues to the extent that they don't realize that there is nothing in the patch notes about petrifaction. Or ballistic missile. Or atomic ray.

Y'all have fun in DF and remember to keep your expectations low.

Seriously, what is the point of these nerfs? People that can't get past Twintania still won't, and that's fine, and people that can't get past T9 still won't. This didn't do anything for anyone. The players that couldn't down anything in second coil might be able to now, but they just get sidegrade gear from their ST freebie gear. The armor set that had some prestige for being able to down "tough" encounters just means nothing now. They get to experience the fights sure, but in a neutered form.

Second coil isn't hard anymore. So, people are saying "casuals" will now have a chance to down it. They couldn't have a chance before? And even if they kill it now, will they feel good about themselves for downing something that got nerfed to the ground? Do you just want the gear, that is equivalent in item level to the gear you already have? What was stopping players from "experiencing" these fights before? Even if you couldn't win, you got to see the content, and none of it is required to down turn 9 and progress the actual story. Now you get to kill the content, sure, but you don't get to experience it how it was made and originally visioned to be. It's pointless.

This change doesn't do anything good at all. I just don't understand the point. It removed a nice, fun challenging piece of content from the game. Players that couldn't down it before and want a chance to experience it in its original form are out of luck, and players that have downed it before and enjoyed the fights can't do it anymore. Yes, omg, savage still exists, but savage is a lot harder than what second coil was originally (it's not the same experience), and if people want to experience it, they still have to down turn 9. If they couldn't down 6-8 before, they still won't be downing 9. Even with the nerfs, if people do magically somehow get turn 9 down, this does nothing for them, because they stand no chance in FCoB.

Echo is one thing; you can go ahead and add echo, whatever. But the changes in encounter mechanics just ruined it.

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Originally Posted by Mitracia

10% is nothing.

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10% to damage dealt, health, AND healing received(dealt?) is huge.

You had 5000 health. Now you have 5500 health. You can now soak two Circle of Flames and live.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

To be fair, there are the middle-ground people who love the pre-nerf difficulty, but are not interested in the savage difficulty.

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Fair enough. I'll be a little disappointed too if it turns out, for instance, that Blighted Boquet only does like 2k damage now. But, if it's doing like 5-6k though people are still going to deal with it properly because it's severe enough. Consider the way the determination debuff from screwing up towers in turn 8 was reduced. Reduced, yes - but you probably still really, really do not want it happening more than once a fight anyway. Maybe the acid stacks in Turn 6 don't instant kill the party anymore - but if it does 4k damage I doubt you want it going off while the boss is also busy still kicking the crap out of your tank and BLARGHing the whole party, etc etc.

If the fight is still punishing enough that we have to actually play the fight, that's fine for me. If the mechanics are literally negligible now, then yes, I will be a little disappointment, agreement with the nerfs overall or not.

We'll have to see when the servers come back up. Somehow I doubt these fights are going to be as free as people have been trying to claim - we just won't need 8 perfect players to even have a shot at a clear now.

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

10% damage increase for the entire party over the entire duration a fight is huge. I guess Heavy Thrust is awful on Dragoon too and Trick Attack vulnerability effect should just be ignored.

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I used the DF to do T5 a bunch of times to help people out, and even though most of the groups I meet is in almost full i110 gear, most of them can't seem to be able to kill the conflagration before it blows up. This is with 20% echo too, which could very well support what he said. :x

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

This also includes the landmines if nobody pays attention to them because if even one of them is left up for too long, it will explode and kill the raid. :x

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Actually the patch notes say something about the mines auto-detonating not killing the raid anymore. So I guess it would only be really bad if that happens while Allagan field is going out.

Tbh T7 was not well-designed at all. If you had enough dps you could skip some of the voices, making it impossible to keep the Renauds petrified to avoid the next Shriek. Basically it was just like Ifrit ex: too much dps? Too bad, you wipe.

Now, T9 IS one of the best tuned fights I've ever seen - and I am pretty sure that it's still going to be the main roadblock.

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Originally Posted by Its_Elodie

Like anything else technology related, XIV will be a moving target.

I try my best not to classify people. It's frustrating when you see people (and this thread is an obvious example) who get upset when other players are now clearing content they did 9 months ago just to be able to clear it and move on in a game that we are all paying for. We aren't getting any better gear or benefit from it other than the fact to simply be able to move on, and I fail to see what is so wrong with that. ...and someone's statement about pugging this content with causuals...wow. Just wow. See why it's easy for me to classify people? You wouldn't be pugging this content anyways, and if you eliminated most of the player base you wouldn't even have a game to able to pug on, would you? :/

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no on here is upset (apart from being branded an elitest jerk) MOST of the people some of which still haven't cleared enjoyed the challenge that SCoB gave