Let Players Speed Run Again

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

But that's why the mechanics were put in place-- because there are a lot of people who DO get grumpy about going slow for new players. Many, many times I've been slotted into a dungeon with a tank who just zooms off doing a speedrun without ever asking if the rest of the party was okay with that. It's one thing to speedrun if everyone agrees that's what they want to do. It's something else entirely when players just assume that everyone in the party is down for it.

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I get that. But why should I have to be punished for those jerks?

In a perfect world, it would be possible to SR without being pressured into doing so.

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Originally Posted by Amelia_Pond_Behemoth

In a perfect world, it would be possible to SR without being pressured into doing so.

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Welp, therefor you would need to eliminate all the elitist scumbags out there. Im maining Pld, and whenever someone wants me to SR during a Daily Dungeon, i just ignore them, wait until they think they need to pull, and then kick them out of the group.
Most if not all the time both other groupmembers agree with me.

You know, you have the ability to tell people you don't want to speed run. If the majority of the party wants to speed run you have to. Just like I have to slow down if the party wants to.

If you don't want a speed run you can leave the duty. You want to go slow means you have time to kill so you can wait for the next duty.

But it doesn't matter, the speed of the party. It's the mechanics like the gates, fall drops, trigger spawns. It's all boring and reused over and over and over.

Make a random generated puzzle or something if your gonna force me to atop. Make it interesting.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

You know, you have the ability to tell people you don't want to speed run. If the majority of the party wants to speed run you have to. Just like I have to slow down if the party wants to.

If you don't want a speed run you can leave the duty. You want to go slow means you have time to kill so you can wait for the next duty.

But it doesn't matter, the speed of the party. It's the mechanics like the gates, fall drops, trigger spawns. It's all boring and reused over and over and over.

Make a random generated puzzle or something if your gonna force me to atop. Make it interesting.

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Again though? How fast do you want to go?

I mean even in the ex roulettes...as a roughly ilvl 110ish healer my PuG groups live and get through it (doing the larger pulls) and we finish sub 30 mins....I don't know the exact times but I only cast protect once. Even if they do 'traditional' pulls, we finish sub 30 minutes.

Each of these dungeons has rewards...likely the reason you're 'farming' them and want them to be 'quicker'. In addition, you get a daily bonus reward for doing the EX roulette. SE likely based the value of the reward on how much time they thought you'd spend in there. Or more accurately...how much time they want you to spend in there. The reason the rewards are higher is because they expect you to spend 20-30 minutes a day on it and feel that time=that reward. I get you are saying 'but if I can do it faster, that should be my right/reward for the effort' But you're not seeing it SE's way. They basically are creating soft locks...because while the one tome is capped (Philo), the other is not. It's an MMO...it's filled with stop/go progression mechanics.

Still, it's a minor problem because as i said in my previous post, even if you had no 'gates' and could pull an entire floor...it wouldn't end well. The gates (for the most part) are located at the max amount of enemies the party can likely handle. ...Assuming ave ilvl of like 110-120ish.

As WHM i can tell you I don't have people dying...but there are pulls I'm using basically every cooldown I have+ stance dancing whenever possible so you can shave a couple seconds off a run. The DD's aren't working equally as hard (AoEing is AoEing, doesn't matter how many mobs...for most roles anyway)....even the tank isn't working that hard (personally I'm happy when I see them use at least one cooldown...you have no idea how many tanks pull large pulls and don't even bother mitigating their incoming damage at all) and SE already stated, they did not like the pressure to speed run placed on healers. They said this not because it's not doable...but because it makes healers carry more than 25% of the party load. (This is not me complaining...I like knowing that I can be 'pushed' and succeed...but I don't always want to be 'used' by random strangers I don't know so they can exit the dungeon 3 minutes faster, never to see me again).

So maybe you'll get speed run dungeons back once they can figure out how to spread the party load on a speed run so it's success doesn't live or die quite literally on the healers skill...although I seriously doubt it. As of now, they basically put gates up at 'largest managable pull'

As to 'if you're gating me make it interesting' You just complained things were too slow...now you want to do puzzles? Because that wouldn't get old by about run number 6.


Also on falls...once again, want it to go quicker? Fall and STOP... do not keep running off. Fall and stop at the point so 1-2 Cure III's and you're set...there is always that dude that runs off....always.

As to the 'recycling' everything is recycled...not just in this game, but all video games. Killing mobs is killing mobs...it's why DD's have 'rotations' and debate how/when to use each skill for max. output....because even killing things is rinse/repeat. And if you want speed runs, you are basically relying on 'just do your AoE rotation over and over' to work....no greater skill/thought (again on at least the part of the DD's) involved.

I loved brayflox speed runs. There's nothing wrong with allowing people who want to speed run to speedrun. I always ask the party if it was okay to pull bigger pulls. The drop points are pretty funny when you think about it. It is a clever way of keeping the party from locking out trash mobs at boss fights.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

It's the mechanics like the gates, fall drops, trigger spawns. It's all boring and reused over and over and over.

Make a random generated puzzle or something if your gonna force me to atop. Make it interesting.

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But you already previously stated that putting up gates like that are a waste of time. Oh that sweet contradiction. . .

In a practical sense, what more do you want (or not want, for that matter)? Randomized dungeons? Sure, sign me up too, but even those would have limitations, and generally wouldn't lend well to speed runs. So again we're at an impasse. As a happy compromise, perhaps a mechanic like the Tonberry Stalker might be welcome again, as it would encourage a sense of urgency to do it fast. Oh, but that would be a reused idea. . . Hmm. . .

That sweet contradiction.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

But you already previously stated that putting up gates like that are a waste of time. Oh that sweet contradiction. . .

In a practical sense, what more do you want (or not want, for that matter)? Randomized dungeons? Sure, sign me up too, but even those would have limitations, and generally wouldn't lend well to speed runs. So again we're at an impasse. As a happy compromise, perhaps a mechanic like the Tonberry Stalker might be welcome again, as it would encourage a sense of urgency to do it fast. Oh, but that would be a reused idea. . . Hmm. . .

That sweet contradiction.

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You need to learn what "contradiction" actually means.

OP welcomes the change as long as it's refreshing, not something reused over and over. Heck... I think most of us do! One of the reason speed run was invented are because of those boredom stuff you have to keep doing over and over.

And you should realize that those gated mobs are really... really old news. Wonder if you ever tasted what Amdapoor Keep originally offers and how many times that dungeon got buffed and nerfed to the point of it being too ridiculous.

Seriously, stop using the word if you're not really understand the meaning, and thus... making fool of yourself. ^^;

This thread is ridiculous. When dungeons were speedrunnable, people were like "OMG DUNGEONS ARE TOO EASY NOW SE STOP THIS SPEEDRUNNING IT TOTALLY KILLS THE FUN!". Now SE made the 2.4 dungeons with mechanics that prevents speedruns, "OMG SE WHY CANT WE SPEEDRUN THIS DUNGEONS SERIOUSLY ITS TOO BORING!". Just deal with it, man. Unless your entire family explodes if you don't cap your Poetics by the 1st day after reset then I understand.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

You know, you have the ability to tell people you don't want to speed run. If the majority of the party wants to speed run you have to. Just like I have to slow down if the party wants to.

If you don't want a speed run you can leave the duty. You want to go slow means you have time to kill so you can wait for the next duty.

But it doesn't matter, the speed of the party. It's the mechanics like the gates, fall drops, trigger spawns. It's all boring and reused over and over and over.

Make a random generated puzzle or something if your gonna force me to atop. Make it interesting.

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No. Speedrunning should not be the default; it should be something asked about and agreed upon by all of the party members involved. If even one person says they don't want to do a speedrun, then you don't do a speedrun. Pressuring people into it or saying they should leave the duty if they don't want to do it is being a jerk.

BobbinT, the implied contradiction lies in the fact that he is on record saying he hates mechanics, but then suggests a random generated puzzle (which would be a mechanic that would not exactly be speed run friendly, no?)

And please don't try to play the grammar card. You're better than that.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

No. Speedrunning should not be the default; it should be something asked about and agreed upon by all of the party members involved. If even one person says they don't want to do a speedrun, then you don't do a speedrun. Pressuring people into it or saying they should leave the duty if they don't want to do it is being a jerk.

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Majority of players will default to efficient behavior. Speed running is efficient, and thus becomes the default. If you aren't up to that, go queue for lower level dungeons. Go be a special slow snowflake outside of expert roulette.

@ LunaHoshino - In a rare defense of Jiraya Geki, he says he at least asks his parties if they wish to speed run or not. Call it a courtesy. However I largely agree with your statement.

@ Ellatrix - I don't know where to begin with what's wrong with your statement. The first part ("default to efficient behavior") is true, yes. But does that make it right? Because if we're using such black and white logic, insta-kicking anyone who wouldn't want to speed run would be far more efficient, but is that right? Hell, cheating would be more efficient for all things overall, but again, is it right? To deflect the rebuttal, this is of course assuming a roulette situation and NOT a situation where a party was pre-formed with the intent to speed run. Come on man, it's not so black and white, and you know it. And the special snowflake comment. . . never mind.

@ Jinraya Geki - Largely, I understand this is all based on your opinion as a paying subscriber/player. I too have my own opinions on this and many other things. There are just as many people that agree with you as disagree with you, just as they do me and my opinions. We're essentially spinning our tires here, but if nothing else, you certainly haven't gone unheard.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Majority of players will default to efficient behavior. Speed running is efficient, and thus becomes the default. If you aren't up to that, go queue for lower level dungeons. Go be a special slow snowflake outside of expert roulette.

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The special snowflake here would be you for thinking you can force speedrunning onto parties. Not everyone wants to speedrun. Not everyone CAN speedrun, especially at lower ilvls. If you're that desperate for a speedrun, make a party in PF specifically for that purpose.

I actually don't mind speedrunning at all, since I can handle it. But I've seen far too many healers who can't handle it and then get blamed when the tank dies or melees who run out of TP and have to stand around waiting for it to build back up.

Then again, you've pretty much proven yourself to be an elitist jerk time and time again, so I shouldn't expect any other answer from you.

When I queue expert roulette, I expect it to go in an expedient fashion. So do plenty of others. Go play with other players who are less inclined to be efficient in high level roulette if you want to go slow.

Thanks for proving my point about why the mechanics were instated!

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

When I queue expert roulette, I expect it to go in an expedient fashion. So do plenty of others. Go play with other players who are less inclined to be efficient in high level roulette if you want to go slow.

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No, you should expect the run to take 90 minutes. Anything faster than should be praised.

As I queue for dungons as tank only now, if I see a BLM I try to speedrun or pull multiple sets at once. If i see 2 classes not proficient in AoE I will pull less at a time, especially if my healer is a SCH. (this actually might be a net DPS gain in some cases) Based SOLELY on the HP totals of each party member I can gauge how many cooldowns I'd expect to use for each pack to survive easily due to expected kill times or average healing rates. Most tanks "should" know this if they tank all the time and are paying attention.

Depends who you have and what you want to do and what amount of time you expect to spend. Asking a group is nice, but I'd almost go with that it is the tank's choice to speed run or not and in reality it basically is the tanks choice when you do or not anyways.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

BobbinT, the implied contradiction lies in the fact that he is on record saying he hates mechanics, but then suggests a random generated puzzle (which would be a mechanic that would not exactly be speed run friendly, no?)

And please don't try to play the grammar card. You're better than that.

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I don't like the current mechanics, they are meant to slow you down forcefully. They are not meant to entertain people at all. If you are going to force me to stop make it interesting, that is the alternative I suggested. This way it's not re-the same thing over and over, it's random generated. If the developers aren't going to make it interesting, then they might as well just remove the dumb current mechanics and let the people who can , speedrun.

Most people who I have done runs with pull nearly all the mobs on the second pull after the yeti. If it were a paladin and they Hallowed Ground, I bet monsters could be burned, maybe not. That would be the trial and error I would do with my FC and parties who want to try in Duty Finder. It makes it fun and exciting to see if I could burn them, or tank those mobs.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

BobbinT, the implied contradiction lies in the fact that he is on record saying he hates mechanics, but then suggests a random generated puzzle (which would be a mechanic that would not exactly be speed run friendly, no?)

And please don't try to play the grammar card. You're better than that.

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You really need to understand which mechanic being talked in this thread. If you run the same thing over and over, won't you get tired anyways? Random puzzle however, are more entertaining, and sometimes ppl are okay with their time wasted away trying to solve the puzzle. In my case, it's like Chess or Sudoku, I enjoy my time playing it trying to solve since there are literally endless possibility, unlike Solitaire which I generally trying to just rush it through since I play this from Windows 3.0 era which is way too boring. That's one of the point of speed-running. Wasn't necessary a must since we can still slow down for any inexperience players. I understand what OP meant by being punished for old method.

Another thing that proves speed-run was in fact very important and even a must: Coils of Bahamut. That content was meant for players required to master their output effectively. The enrage timer was placed there for that sole reason. This is why I said in previous post about the importance of speed-running. Every party member need to play effectively, not just tanks and healers.

Remember quest Relic Reborn in 1.0? The majority of quest steps in that quest are purely and stricly speed run only, or should I say Super-speed run. Then we see ppl starts to complain how tough it is to beat the quest. Yoshi even admits making the quest so difficult on purpose. In the end, Relic Reborn quest was greatly nerfed in ARR and Coil of Bahamut was created as a substitute for it.

But... if you want to enjoy this game in your own leisure, no one's gonna hold you back. Just don't expect you can try beating end-game content like Coil without learning to play your job effectively on tight schedules. ^^;

So yes, that "contradiction" thing was kinda hit and miss for me. ^^;

Too bad your achievement information are locked, though your current gear kinda speaks for itself.

BobbinT, please go back and read several of my posts. I suggest starting with the first (the literal first response to the original post), and you'll see I'm not only following what he's saying, I am, and have provided well-thought out counter-argument, and actually at points have even agreed with him. I was actually in favor of the randomized puzzle actually, but was being snarky in pointing out that it was not a mechanic that would lend well to speed runs. (And I understand he was basically saying if he HAS to be stopped due to mechanics, at least make them interesting i.e. randomized elements.)

I believe I also pointed out that Brayflox HM was originally so able to be speed run not only due to lack of any significant mechanics (a key holding enemy/gate x3, and one area you just had to wait for Brayflox to open a path, but not much else) but because it was tuned for i55 and many players were pushing into i100 at that point. We were all WELL above the bar. Simply put, it got too easy (for example, I Bard-tanked Bray/Halatali HM, and Lost City back when they were still "expert" dungeons). I believe the devs took note of that and began to raise the bar. I believe I ALSO mentioned that the current Expert level dungeons are tuned for i80, which is actually higher than Turn 4 (i75) but lower than Turn 5 (i83 minimum, lol), and while Coil is not designed to be lengthy (which is why Jinraya-Geki and I both like it), it IS designed to be a challenge. As such, the "old method" simply doesn't lend itself all that well or effectively to the challenge. Perhaps at i130, but we'll see.

Also, Coil - my favorite content in the game (previously mentioned as well) - is/was my crucible. I cut my teeth and pushed myself to learn how to REALLY play my roles effectively there; far more so than any speed run that involved gathering up enemies and using aoes/aoe heals til everything is dead (T4 obviously being an exception). And I mentioned in a different thread how I've been able to clear a lot of content generally lower geared than anyone else, purely due to really knowing what to do and how to do it effectively, Coil included. Even now, I continue learning to do what I can better and faster, and without even needing the "old" speed run method (T2 being an exception). I do enjoy the game at my leisure - I cap when I want to, and I don't cap when I don't want to - and that's whether I rush or not. I said before, we all get the same tomes whether fast or slow. Let me also just put it out there now - the persistent idea that anything less than a speed run = "slow and easy" is faulty and really needs to not hold weight here. Others have supported that small point there, and I regret not being able to give specific credit for that.

Lastly, if you're seeing what I'm seeing, you're looking at my Ninja - my new tertiary (that's third) main class. Geared enough to do most of what I need/want to do, naturally, but still third in my priority list of classes to gear. Please don't judge what I can or can't do by looking at my gear.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

If you are going to force me to stop make it interesting, that is the alternative I suggested.

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This is another problem I have with the new dungeons. Prime example being Sastasha HM where there is literally a stopping point that requires you kill 2 whole enemies before progressing onward. Why is that there? For what purpose? We haven't had to do that since... early low level dungeons, and even then you could pull multiple packs of them at a time if you wanted to.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

This is another problem I have with the new dungeons. Prime example being Sastasha HM where there is literally a stopping point that requires you kill 2 whole enemies before progressing onward. Why is that there? For what purpose? We haven't had to do that since... early low level dungeons, and even then you could pull multiple packs of them at a time if you wanted to.

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I think you might be blowing that well out of proportion. Especially when you consider that's ALL there is between the first boss and second, minus 2 sets of 3 trash mob pulls. A good party can shred right through them with minimal time lost, so it's really a bit of a moot point.

*EATS POPCORN*

This thread is lol, nothing against the OP. I understand the post, but tbqh, the fall in Qarn is mere seconds of recovery, nothing that really handicaps a speedrun, the enemies in sasatasha that you are forced to kill before the gate open is only seconds. While I agree with needing more interesting mechanics, like someone suggested puzzle, security codes, etc (which is a really good idea imo). But people really need to stop "saying" they cant speed run them. Put together an effective team via FC/PF whatever and do the damn thing. the groups I had yesterday shredded through Brayflox HM, Sastasha HM, Qarn HM and Tam Tara HM, before I even knew it was over. I Played all roles Tank and SCH/WHM the most and then I used SMN on Brayflox.

of all of them Sastasha was the fastest one completed. I was SCH and we had a WAR, BRD and BLM, the Kraken died faster than I had ever seen.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I think you might be blowing that well out of proportion. Especially when you consider that's ALL there is between the first boss and second, minus 2 sets of 3 trash mob pulls. A good party can shred right through them with minimal time lost, so it's really a bit of a moot point.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwm5CzqTJ_Q#t=1406

It's literally 2 trash mobs blocking the path. Why is the door there? Because they want us to clear 2 trash mobs, with 0 mechanics, and then proceed on to the next room (the next room is fine, bare in mind). Why...? Why is this a thing? It takes very little time to burn down 2 mobs, but what is the point in that stop gap? It's only purpose is to make sure you clear those 2 trash mobs before you proceed onto the next ones, which is what this entire thread is all about: the unnecessary walls. I feel like this one is THE most unnecessary because, again, it's 2 mobs that do absolutely nothing. At least the walls in Qarn have a monster that is supposed to have a "mechanic" blocking the way, Snowcloak you either deal with waves of trash/one trash mob with "mechanics" and you can pull large before you get to the wall there. That's not ideal, but it is significantly better than a wall where you fight 2 mobs that have absolutely 0 mechanics.

You could also try reading the post I was quoting, the one that recommends making the walls interesting if they're going to be there at all. Since that was sort of what I was expanding on, using an example of a room with absolutely 0 mechanics, just (again) 2 trash mobs that do nothing but die.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwm5CzqTJ_Q#t=1406

It's literally 2 trash mobs blocking the path. Why is the door there?

You could also try reading the post I was quoting, the one that recommends making the walls interesting if they're going to be there at all. Since that was sort of what I was expanding on, using an example of a room with absolutely 0 mechanics, just (again) 2 trash mobs that do nothing but die.

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Same could be said about the original Sastasha at this same point, not once but twice is blocked by a (I don't want to call him a boss, but w/e) and the two trash adds. I look at them as Guards. You don't walk through a secured checkpoint without guards, do you? That's pretty much what those guys are. In order to pass that spot, you have to get pass the guards to proceed, otherwise turn back and leave the dungeon...

Would it make you feel better if they dropped a key?

Let me get this straight: you're complaining about 2 mobs in the way. 2 mobs, really? You complain they "do nothing but die" but you seem to be missing the trees for the forest here. Let's break it down: You've got an enemy that is actively healed by non-aggressive "adds" that do party wide damage when killed, AND is covered by 2 lesser versions of itself. Sure, they're easy to kill, but that sounds like someone at least put thought into that one. Not just the encounter, but the mechanics. I don't recall seeing that anywhere else in any other dungeon so far, and please correct me if I'm wrong. Remove the door, and what would you get? Speed junkies who'd gather them up, then likely die due to the constant aoes also hitting the spumes, making both the aoes a bad idea AND the healer having to keep up with constant incoming party wide damage. Turn 2 for what.

Come on man, how many of us have seen people with at least 1 or 2 poetics/HA pieces pull the first 4 to 5 mobs in Snowcloak then get wrecked simply because of more damage in than out? I can't say it enough; the "old" method was possible because things were too easy. Things actually hit back and pose a threat, even if still totally manageable with a good party. Those who aren't careful, get wrecked. And truthfully, deserve it.

And I'm gonna be that bad person and just say it: You say you want at least want interesting mechanics if you HAVE to slow down or be stopped, but then what? Gonna still try to stick to "old methods" and complain when that doesn't work? Get real, people. The bar got raised. The "old" method is a knife. . . Welcome to the gun fight.

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

words

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Sastasha NM is a lvl 15 dungeon. Sorry for thinking things might get a bit better at lvl 50. My complaint isn't that they don't drop "a key" (literally said that nowhere, you're talking pure conjecture, don't even know why I'm responding this tbqh), my complaint is that it's 2 mobs that do literally nothing in front of a door that doesn't let you proceed until you beat those 2 mobs. It's really horrible dungeon design and I really don't understand why everyone is excusing it.

If you had the choice between:

1.) 2 mobs that did literally nothing but auto attacks, are squishy as hell, in front of a door that blocks you from proceeding or
2.) 2 mobs that had mechanics you had to deal with that required some semblance of coordination that blocked the path to the next area

which would you rather have? Would you really feel like those 2 mobs held any merit if they did nothing but auto attacks? Why are they special? Why are they the only ones guarding this door? And if they were in charge of it, they should at least do something more than auto attack you. Surely, even the First Mate that is summoned after you kill all the trash in the next room is better fit for guarding this door, if not something more powerful. Am I wrong? Do people feel fine with having a wall guarded by 2 trash enemies that do literally nothing? Does no one want to at least have some challenge in these dungeons if we're not meant to speedrun them? And I'm not talking about even Coil1 level mechanics here, just some sort of "mini boss" guarding the stop signs, something that felt WORTH the time you have to sit there for.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

more words

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I'm complaining about 2 mobs that serve no purpose but to slow down the time it takes to get from boss B to boss C. While I think trash in general is just as the name implies, some of them actually have mechanics you have to adhere to (Tonberry Stalkers in WP, most of the trash in Lost City, most of the trash in Pharos Sirius, pre-nerf wasps in Qarn NORMAL MODE, etc. etc.). I would actually like it, if I'm forced to stop, to have a little bit of challenge or at least a slight bit of difficulty. Call me insane, but being forced to stop, kill 2 trash mobs who do absolutely nothing lest we forget, and then proceed onward just feels like horrible pacing by the dungeon designers. The next room is fine, but this room just seems... completely pointless. It's not really much of an improvement, but as a counter example there's a room in Snowcloak where it's literally (I believe) 2 dogs and 1 ice bomb. The bomb can explode and do large damage if stood inside of. The fact that that is better than this kind of speaks volumes.

Anyway, "missing the trees for the forest" isn't how that idiom goes but I do understand what you're saying. However, I'm not saying that "THIS IS BAD THEREFORE EVERYTHING IS BAD". I'm saying this thing is bad and is one of the examples where they put absolutely no effort into the trash before the wall. They have put work into other trash, such as the deathdancers or whatever they are that get healed by the spumes as you said. Those are great, they aren't exactly what I'd want but they serve a purpose and make you feel like you've overcame a small obstacle and can now move onto the next one. If that was consistent, I wouldn't be complaining. I don't really care about speedrunning dungeons, Snowcloak as-is is quick enough for me, and while I don't think suicidal tanks should result in SE putting up walls in the dungeon - I can understand why that would be the easiest choice to deal with that issue. Basically, if I can't go fast, I'd at least like to have some fun along the way - that a bad thing or something? Does no one want fun now? Kinda confusing when people are just fine with 2 random trash mobs that do nothing, but are so against speedrunning.

Real speed running was when the tank aggroed every mob in the dungeon and died where everyone else just followed and raised the tank when the mobs went back to their starting positions.

But aside from that at least these gates stop over zealous tanks pulling more than their party can handle. I don't mind these gates as long as the total dungeon time run in an efficient manner is no longer than the previous set of dungeons as all the previous dungeons don't really take much more than 15-20 mins run by a decent team I wouldn't want newer ones to take longer simply because I think that is the limit for a dungeon.

I think the first CT raid tested the maximum limit for people's patience I believe it was simply too long which is what first encouraged the in progress fishing. ST is a much more reasonable length and flows better.

What I believe would be a more effective manner in this is to introduce the newest dungeons with a switch to toggle a speed run variant and a normal one, the Roulettes can include normal versions but if running standard duty finder you could toggle on a "speed run" button that would be an identical dungeon but with barriers removed for example the doors and keys in Qarn. The reason for this being that your average once a day roulette person is unlikely to be massively bothered if the dungeon isn't speed run, but someone grinding tomes for relic upgrades or light would find it extremely frustrating. If you was able to steamroll it in the most efficient manner, thus allowing them to create a party specifically to speedrun through a dungeon without barriers would make some of these relic grinds quicker and easier.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Hot air

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Firstly... I answered your why this why that. wah wah wah wah WAAHHH comment. And it's painfully obvious you refused to accept the answer and you know what? That's perfectly fine.

To answer your next paragraph regarding choices. I'd rather the dungeon stay as is. And no, I'm not saying it to be an asshole. I like the dungeon and the way it was designed. What you are complaining of is very minimal that this thread literally serves no purpose tbqh...

The two trash at the door serve a purpose and I will say it again, but this time in bold letters so you don't miss it. They. Are. Guards.

Do you act this way when a celebrity is guarded by bodyguards and is walking about in public, but you think you should be able to approach him/her and have a conversation with them?

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

Do you act this way when a celebrity is guarded by bodyguards and is walking about in public, but you think you should be able to approach him/her and have a conversation with them?

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This example makes literally no sense in this context, but I'll give you one that works better:

2 guards in front of a safe at a bank. You are a thief who is trying to steal what's inside the safe. You are a really horrible thief, so instead of sneaking past them or whatever, you run straight up to them and try to fight them.

Now, in this scenario, do you expect the guards to just auto attack you? Were they hired for this job because they're completely incompetent? Nah, they're probably pretty proficient at ensuring that the safe is shut tight. So, I assume they'd be a bit more... mechanics based. Maybe instead of just gently slapping you, they pull out their guns and start firing at you. In the real world this would require you think on the fly as to not die, but in a game this would be replaced with a "mechanic". Even in the game scenario where it's part of a crew of pirates, you wouldn't stick two random guys in front of the door to the chamber of the Kraken. As an easy example, there is a mob in the very next room that can chain a party member and then cast an AOE. This would've been a good idea in the 2-man room, but instead we have auto attacks.

Also I'd like to say I do like the rest of the dungeon, it's not fantastic or anything but it was pretty good the first time I ran through it. The first and second bosses are fantastic and I hope we get more bosses like that in future 4man dungeons. This part of it just stood out for me, as did the small room in Snowcloak. It is a small complaint, but does that somehow make it pointless? Nah, I don't think it does really. Most requests SE gets are "quality of life" changes, and usually when they're implemented a lot of people are happy about it. I'd be happy if they just made the walls consistently interesting.

You did answer my questions, but they weren't really... answers. You kinda just said "well, the original had 2 mobs, clearly the HM should have 2 mobs as well because blah blah blah guards blah blah blah". I get that they're guards, but maybe the guards in the HM shouldn't be equally as weak as the ones in NM.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

This example makes literally no sense in this context, but I'll give you one that works better:

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It made perfect sense tbqf... basically I'm stating do you whine about not getting through when there are guards around your destination? Be it celebrity, produce aisle, bathroom w/e...

The whole dungeon is littered with guards that protect or are supposed to prevent you and your team from getting to the boss... That is its purpose. Plain and simple.

Also you go from complaining that the shut door is what prevents the speed run to the guards that take 2-3 seconds to put down to now requesting you want them to be tougher to further slow your speed run?

Now what doesn't make sense?

Oh and...

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You did answer my questions, but they weren't really... answers. You kinda just said "well, the original had 2 mobs, clearly the HM should have 2 mobs as well because blah blah blah guards blah blah blah". I get that they're guards, but maybe the guards in the HM shouldn't be equally as weak as the ones in NM.

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I never said that BECAUSE they had two guards that this one should, I said it did have the same slow down, not once but twice... but you know reading comprehension on forums is an awesome feature that should come in button form. When people are posting the reader can press the button for a preschool level translation so people can interpret post correctly.

:rolleyes:

My initial argument was that they shouldn't exist at all and that the walls should disappear entirely, which I stand behind. But, if there are going to be walls, the trash standing in front of them should be a bit more difficult than normal trash. This is literally the case for some other walls, the deathdancers or w/e in the very same dungeon, the head + hand(s) in Qarn, the dragons with the AOE in Snowcloak. But here, at the entrance to the Kraken's lair, are two crew members who apparently had a bit too much to drink and can't be bothered to do anything worthwhile to safeguard the entrance to the final boss area. Maybe that's only strange to me and that inconsistency is fine with everyone else, but I personally liked the other trash mobs and felt they gave the walls a purpose. They weren't tough, but they at least felt like they belonged there.

Anyway, I can see you're not going to be swayed from your stance, so I'll let you get the last word in. Feel free to say whatever makes you feel better about yourself. o/

I remember back in the 1st couple of weeks of 2.0's release. I made it to satasha in the 1st week of the game (Was at ifrit by weeks 2 after cross skill grinding) and when I was a freash lvl 15 with next to no MMO exp PLUS with three others who had ZERO mmo exp to that point, Satasha and the others were actually hard then. Why? because we were all lvl 15s with crappy gear and no idea how the enemys functioned.

And here you come complaining over a year later about how a LVL 15 Dungeon is easy? Try running Bryflox HM in Af 1 gear, or Hullbreaker in Darklight Armor, or Snow Cloak in CT 1 gear, those are the MIMIMUM item levels needed to cue them and THEY, ARE, A, B**CH! at that level. Cue a lvl 80> Dungeon in 100+ gear and no S*** that it's going to be stupid easy. Heck Satasha HM's Kraken is easy as heck now that it's ideal methid has been figured out. DPS foucus on the Arms, Ignore the tenticals, Tank spanks the boss and BOOM, kraken dies in mear minutes. My record kill for Kraken with that method was 3 minutes with an over all 15 minute run of the whole place, ZERO WIPES. On the other hand our gear was ranging from 110-120 so OF COUSE IT WAS EASY.

ITT most people fail to understand underlying gameplay mechanics (and surprise surprise, you're still in welfare token gear).

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

ITT most people fail to understand underlying gameplay mechanics (and surprise surprise, you're still in welfare token gear).

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Ellatrix, no one cares what high level gear you have that they don't. Seriously, it's anything but exclusive. Not only is that completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, I'd expect a player of your caliber to know and understand that gear and skill are not relative of each other. And before you even TRY the argument that having the skill to get that gear makes it relative, plenty of people have pointed out the flaws in that statement in another thread.

So seriously, just give it a rest.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

gear and skill are not relative of each other.
So seriously, just give it a rest.

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This ^

High Level gear will never make a bad player good. The most it will do is let them live long enough to be carried vs dieing in one hit from a mechanic and being left behind to rot.

No, it's just the experience difference with understanding mechanics. If you see 2 trash mobs that must die before a wall comes down as anything other than a speed bump, you flat out don't understand underlying design intent.

Bottom line, Gear =/= Skill, Skill = Skill, gear just helps that already preasent skill be more effective.

Speed Runs every where work just fine. It all comes down to the synergy factors.
1:Is the DPS high enough?
2:Is the Tank holding Agro properly?
3:Is the healer keeping up with the dammage you're taking?

Apply those three points and any dungeon can be speed run. The boss Mechanis even fall under those three principles.

Again you miss the point of the whole thread. There are intentional speed bumps placed in the new dungeons. "Going fast" != "Speed run".

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

This ^

High Level gear will never make a bad player good. The most it will do is let them live long enough to be carried vs dieing in one hit from a mechanic and being left behind to rot.

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Things said by people who have never set foot in coil. Someone in full HA is basically guaranteed to be a more skilled and experienced player than someone in full soldiery. But this is going off on a tangent.