"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Okay so the EU is willing to justify MPK as well for a weird ego trip

I’m the first one to tell people NA is trash but at least they arent trying to justify MPK for their own ego so I’m not sure what point you are trying to prove here

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Because you cannot fathom the concept of actual teamplay and that pettiness will get rewarded with pettiness.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Okay so the EU is willing to justify MPK as well for a weird ego trip

I’m the first one to tell people NA is trash but at least they arent trying to justify MPK for their own ego so I’m not sure what point you are trying to prove here

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So this is a circumstance where the Americans are right and everyone else is wrong, correct?

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

So this is a circumstance where the Americans are right and everyone else is wrong, correct?

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Yes. Please look forward to Supesnow telling you about all your duty experiences.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So in your mind “team gameplay” is “play how I want or I’ll let you die”?

Very much team gameplay

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Tank setting the pace is etiquette and a silent agreement among the team. Thank you for proving my point.If you can't follow etiquette, why should the tank? All I read is "rule for thee but not for me".
Also hypocrisy because that's exactly what you try to argue all the time.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Because you cannot fathom the concept of actual teamplay and that pettiness will get rewarded with pettiness.

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So in your mind “team gameplay” is “play how I want or I’ll let you die”?

Very much team gameplay

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

So this is a circumstance where the Americans are right and everyone else is wrong, correct?

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Well since NA alone is over half the population I don’t really think it matters either way as to the validity of NA vs everyone else

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Tank setting the pace is a agreement among the team. Thank you for proving my point.

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See this is just such a perfect representation of the pointless circular logic that defines YPYT

“Let’s say the tank sets the pace and everyone agrees on it, then it’s wrong for the others to not obey the pace. Why does the tank set the pace? Because the tank sets the pace”

Like sure if everyone is fine with the tank setting the pace then go ahead, but if people disagree on the pace then the tank isn’t right by default and allowing people to die because you disagree with another’s desired pace is just the most childish way to solve it while also pretending to be “for the party”

And as for your edit who determines said etiquette, there isn’t rules for who pulls. You are basically saying “let’s assume the rules exist (they don’t), why are you breaking them?”

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

See this is just such a perfect representation of the pointless circular logic that defines YPYT

“Let’s say the tank sets the pace and everyone agrees on it, then it’s wrong for the others to not obey the pace. Why does the tank set the pace? Because the tank sets the pace”

Like sure if everyone is fine with the tank setting the pace then go ahead, but if people disagree on the pace then the tank isn’t right by default and allowing people to die because you disagree with another’s desired pace is just the most childish way to solve it while also pretending to be “for the party”

And as for your edit who determines said etiquette, there isn’t rules for who pulls. You are basically saying “let’s assume the rules exist (they don’t), why are you breaking them?”

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Let me just clarify here that actual YPYT happens rarely, but petty punishment can happen. If the DPS is a prick, why should only the tank be punished for being petty?
Why is the DPS right for just deliberately disrupting the game for the rest of the team?

Etiquette is good behavior, a norm among players to get along and make the game easier for everyone. Just because you cannot understand it doesn't make it obsolete.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Let me just clarify here that actual YPYT happens rarely, but petty punishment can happen. If the DPS is a prick, why shoould only the tank be punished for being petty?
Why is the DPS right for just deliberately disrupting the game for the rest of the team?

Etiquette is good behavior, a norm among players. Just because you cannot understand it doesn't make it obsolete.

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That’s my point. You are starting off a flawed base. You are beginning with the assumption that anyone besides the tank pulling is automatically disobeying some sense of “etiquette” despite having no functional reason why that exists. Tanks haven’t had necessity of being pullers in so long the vast majority of players playing this game never experienced the game when it was like that. If you want to justify being petty on the game equivalent of meaningless tradition then sure I guess but it’s not exactly a powerful argument. About as meaningful as JP losing their minds when A tank pulls in an alliance raid

So in a world where anyone can pull with no downsides (and in the case of effective use of things like arms length or toxicon can actually generate advantage) the so called “etiquette” is just outdated tendencies to do things the same way for no real benefit which then leads to the question of why are you being petty against a DPS who from a gameplay perspective isn’t doing anything wrong. I’m not even saying a DPS is in the “right” for pulling, I’m saying letting someone die for something that doesn’t lead to downsides unless you let it puts you in the wrong.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s my point. You are starting off a flawed base. You are beginning with the assumption that anyone besides the tank pulling is automatically disobeying some sense of “etiquette” despite having no functional reason why that exists. Tanks haven’t had necessity of being pullers in so long the vast majority of players playing this game never experienced the game when it was like that

So in a world where anyone can pull with no downsides (and in the case of effective use of things like arms length or toxicon can actually generate advantage) the so called “etiquette” is just outdated tendencies to do things the same way for no real benefit which then leads to the question of why are you being petty against a DPS who from a gameplay perspective isn’t doing anything wrong. I’m not even saying a DPS is in the “right” for pulling, I’m saying letting someone die for something that doesn’t lead to downsides unless you let it puts you in the wrong.

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Maybe ettiquette on NA is "GOTTA GO FAST", but that doesn't make it universal for the game. Just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean you are automatically in the right to do it.
I think you're just looking for reasons to be angry at tanks, probably because you're miserable as a healer.

[EDIT]
Also I need a source for that JP Ally Raid claim. Anyone from JP here?

I think the "Anyone pulls everything for any reason at any time" is more of a Warframe mentality.

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

I think the "Anyone pulls everything for any reason at any time" is more of a Warframe mentality.

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If that's a thing on Warframe then alright, more power to them.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Maybe ettiquette on NA is "GOTTA GO FAST", but that doesn't make it universal for the game. Just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean you are automatically in the right to do it.
I think you're just looking for reasons to be angry at tanks, probably because you're miserable as a healer.

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Which as I said a person pulling isn’t automatically in the right for pulling, a person deciding to be petty against them for little more than a slight against their own perceived sense of etiquette is in the wrong. You forfeit any claim to being in the right when you can’t even articulate what the other person did wrong other than just saying that it offends a collective sense of etiquette (that isn’t very collective anyway). Pulling as another player in the modern game has functionally zero downsides and a host of upsides, if you’d rather cling to weird traditional etiquette I’d ask why you aren’t playing all your classes like their HW incarnation considering that was the last time pulling as a DPS generated significant downsides

My annoyance at tank strength has nothing to do with YPYT, it’s just hilarious to me that in the last 6 pages the best justification for YPYT has been “tradition”, “AI slop” and “well if BOTH EU and JP do MPK it must be okay”

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Originally Posted by TBerry

If that's a thing on Warframe then alright, more power to them.

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Yeah that's my point. Anyone with this mentality that anyone should pull anything at any time is playing the wrong game/genre. SnuperSow specifically is probably playing the wrong game, given their clear discontent with everything from their class identity to common dungeon etiquette.

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

Yeah that's my point. Anyone with this mentality that anyone should pull anything at any time is playing the wrong game/genre. SnuperSow specifically is probably playing the wrong game, given their clear discontent with everything from their class identity to common dungeon etiquette.

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Wouldn’t you know that I’d actually be fine with tanks being the designated pullers if anyone pulling didn’t lead to measurable upsides and zero downsides. It’s like they made dungeons not care about the holy trinity then wonder why people don’t treat dungeons like a game with an actual holy trinity treats dungeons. Shocker isn’t it, things lead to unintended side effects when your only concern is pretending the trinity is meaningless. Why would you want to hold onto meaningless “etiquette” born of the way a game with an actual holy trinity interacts with dungeons when this game refuses to even pretend like it has a holy trinity

But yeah I guess if 14 before ShB is another genre then I should be playing another genre because I’ve never wanted anything else than this game to actually pretend the trinity is a real thing again

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Which as I said a person pulling isn’t automatically in the right for pulling, a person deciding to be petty against them for little more than a slight against their own perceived sense of etiquette is in the wrong. You forfeit any claim to being in the right when you can’t even articulate what the other person did wrong other than just saying that it offends a collective sense of etiquette (that isn’t very collective anyway). Pulling as another player in the modern game has functionally zero downsides and a host of upsides, if you’d rather cling to weird traditional etiquette I’d ask why you aren’t playing all your classes like their HW incarnation considering that was the last time pulling as a DPS generated significant downsides

My annoyance at tank strength has nothing to do with YPYT, it’s just hilarious to me that in the last 6 pages the best justification for YPYT has been “tradition”, “AI slop” and “well if BOTH EU and JP do MPK it must be okay”

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I never said anything about justifying YPYT I said on EU players just adhere to the tank pulling because it's agreed upon and the most peaceful solution of teamplay and, I don't know if you heqard about it, but being social, and not being an egomanic for trying to justify antisocial behaviour.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Wouldn’t you know that I’d actually be fine with tanks being the designated pullers if anyone pulling didn’t lead to measurable upsides and zero downsides. It’s like they made dungeons not care about the holy trinity then wonder why people don’t treat dungeons like a game with an actual holy trinity treats dungeons. Shocker isn’t it, things lead to unintended side effects when your only concern is pretending the trinity is meaningless. Why would you want to hold onto meaningless “etiquette” born of the way a game with an actual holy trinity interacts with dungeons when this game refuses to even pretend like it has a holy trinity

But yeah I guess if 14 before ShB is another genre then I should be playing another genre because I’ve never wanted anything else than this game to actually pretend the trinity is a real thing again

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Be the change you want to see in the world via action rather than yapping.

If you want this game to be like this, at least act like it and support tanks being the designated pullers in behavior, if not mechanically (in your opinion).

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Originally Posted by TBerry

I never said anything about justifying YPYT I said on EU players just adhere to the tank pulling because it's agreed upon and the most peaceful solution and teamplay and, I don't know if you heqard about it, but being social and not an egomanic for trying to justify antisocial behaviour.

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Yet here you are trying to justify petty revenge and letting people die for having the gall to not follow the tanks sense of etiquette.

Notice how (and look through all my comments) I have never said that I MYSELF pull ahead of the tank. Because by default I don’t. I ask the tank, I encourage them and I attempt to help them. Will I pull an extra stray mob they might have missed; yes; will I pull an entire extra pack the tank doesn’t; no. Yet here you are painting me as an antisocial egomaniac because I’m pointing out all this weird logic from the last 7 pages you and the other 2 people have been spouting can be flipped right round to the same effect but none of you see that because you are starting from your own circular point of “the tank must be right therefore the tank is right”.

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

Be the change you want to see in the world via action rather than yapping.

If you want this game to be like this, at least act like it and support tanks being the designated pullers in behavior, if not mechanically (in your opinion).

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Funny how; as I said above; I don’t actually pull ahead, I’m already “being the change I want to see in the world” but yall are so blind to how hypocritical your own logic is that when I flip it around from the DPS perspective suddenly I’m a antisocial egomaniac who needs to play a different genre

And what do you know me “being the change I want to see in the world” has lead to the trinity being watered down more and more, maybe I should pull ahead so tanks can realise they are also expendable then maybe they will ask for some semblance of the trinity back

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Wouldn’t you know that I’d actually be fine with tanks being the designated pullers if anyone pulling didn’t lead to measurable upsides and zero downsides. It’s like they made dungeons not care about the holy trinity then wonder why people don’t treat dungeons like a game with an actual holy trinity treats dungeons. Shocker isn’t it, things lead to unintended side effects when your only concern is pretending the trinity is meaningless. Why would you want to hold onto meaningless “etiquette” born of the way a game with an actual holy trinity interacts with dungeons when this game refuses to even pretend like it has a holy trinity

But yeah I guess if 14 before ShB is another genre then I should be playing another genre because I’ve never wanted anything else than this game to actually pretend the trinity is a real thing again

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That's the thing, people DO treat it like the trinity. Even if it's not mechanically supported.
Hence dungeon etiquette. It's called immersion.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I ask the tank, I encourage them and I attempt to help them.

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There's where your ego is getting you: you assume just as a matter of fact that they need help if they're not wall-to-walling, when it could very well just be how they prefer to play.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

That's the thing, peopel DO treat it like the trinity. Even if it's not mechanically supported.
Hence dungeon etiquette. It's called immersion.

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So now we should be supporting people’s illusion of the trinity when the game doesn’t even support it mechanically?

Can you support my “illusion of the trinity” by not healing yourself as a tank when I’m the healer (asking for a friend)

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

There's where your ego is getting you: you assume just as a matter of fact that they need help if they're not wall-to-walling, when it could very well just be how they prefer to play.

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I just told you I don’t “encourage” them by pulling more for them, I ask them if there is a reason they may not be comfortable and if they don’t want to be encouraged I leave it at that. Oooh ahhhh, so hard to actually do what you keep telling me I apparently can’t do

And that just circles back to the earlier point anyway. If they just want to play like that, and someone else just wants to play W2W then why is the tank automatically in the right as per your logic

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Yet here you are trying to justify petty revenge and letting people die for having the gall to not follow the tanks sense of etiquette.

Notice how (and look through all my comments) I have never said that I MYSELF pull ahead of the tank. Because by default I don’t. I ask the tank, I encourage them and I attempt to help them. Will I pull an extra stray mob they might have missed; yes; will I pull an entire extra pack the tank doesn’t; no. Yet here you are painting me as an antisocial egomaniac because I’m pointing out all this weird logic from the last 7 pages you and the other 2 people have been spouting can be flipped right round to the same effect but none of you see that because you are starting from your own circular point of “the tank must be right therefore the tank is right”.

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It's not just the tank it's the whole party. And it can happen, but it's just as much the fault of the DPS as it is the tank's.I'm fairly certain most tanks will just get pissy, and a vote of dismissal is more likely. Also no one dies, just damage. I never did YPYT as tank, but I also don't pull as a DPS. Because that's how we do it.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So now we should be supporting people’s illusion of the trinity when the game doesn’t even support it mechanically?

Can you support my “illusion of the trinity” by not healing yourself as a tank when I’m the healer (asking for a friend)

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And there it is. Your ulterior motive and the root of your problem with tanks.
Because you are not the sole lifesaver and star of the party.

You can harp on about YPYT (it IS reportable), but we all know it's not about that. The thread has never been. You want to use it as a leverage to coerce and punish people. And OP probably pushed their luck and got kicked.
And you try to justify because it's not a mechanic, because clearly you don't understand the meaning of "community".

And people wonder why NA is so toxic and no one actually wants to play with others.

It kind of reminds me of the the "arguments" griefers use in PvP MMOs when they zerg and spawncamp noobs.
"The game doesn't prevent it, so I can do it."

I'm from EU, I've been doing roulettes since HW and I've had yet to see anyone kick DPS who pulled ahead. Hell, the only reason that solidly gets someone kicked is being afk/offline. I've never faced a dismiss over pulling ahead of a tank and I've done this plenty of times in recent years, specially as a healer. And when I tank? I just... don't care when I can get aggro back and I know the DPS can survive for enough time before I grab the aggro back. I used to think pulling ahead of tank was rude, and then realized it was, in the end, of no consequence.

It's not an NA thing. And if my word alone isn't enough for you, there is plenty of EU veterans in this whole thread that also think YPYT is just tank ego and that DPS pulling ahead is no big deal. It's a headscratcher how you're trying to turn a molehill out of a sand grain when most people running dungeons just... don't care. There is no much story to a DPS pulling ahead other than them pulling ahead. And if you asked most of them, the answer you would get is that they're used to the rythm of W2W, nothing more and nothing less.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

You can harp on about YPYT (it IS reportable), but we all know it's not about that. The thread has never been. You want to use it as a leverage to coerce and punish people.
And you try to justify because it's not a mechanic, because clearly you don't understand the meaning of "community"."

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Even if the thread comes from a Titanmen alt, it still adresess the opposite: how some tanks use arbitrary etiquette code they've come up with to coerce and punish DPS who don't fall in with their program, which is the whole thing of YPYT (the game is not so complex or new as to not be already optimized by their players). Trying to move the goalpost in order to turn the discussion about some attempt of a psychological study on those who complain about YPYT won't really change that.

And the fun part is that the most cases of YPYT I've seen don't come from EU, but from NA. I would wager Supersnow845 has a much clearer picture on how narcissistic players can be than you think.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

And there it is. Your ulterior motive and the root of your problem with tanks.
Because you are not the sole lifesaver and star of the party.

You can harp on about YPYT (it IS reportable), but we all know it's not about that. The thread has never been. You want to use it as a leverage to coerce and punish people. And OP probably pushed their luck and got kicked.
And you try to justify because it's not a mechanic, because clearly you don't understand the meaning of "community".

And people wonder why NA is so toxic and no one actually wants to play with others.

It kind of reminds me of the the "arguments" griefers use in PvP MMOs when they zerg and spawncamp noobs.
"The game doesn't prevent it, so I can do it."

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So explain to me, very easily, and very clearly from a neutral foundation why maintaining etiquette built on the foundation of a trinity which now exists in name only is good and should be followed for immersion reasons but other elements of said trinity that is being followed for immersion reasons aren’t relevant

Because id really like to know why anyone should follow the tank because of the ghost of the old trinity but other elements of the old trinity should just be ignored because it’s convenient for you. Either you follow the spirit of the ghost of the trinity or your whole etiquette system collapses because there is no argument where you can both say the DPS should follow the tank because in the old trinity the tank needed to pull first but also say the tank should be able to heal on behalf of the healer when in the old system the tank relied on the healing of the healer

It’s like a textbook case of having your cake and eating it too

It's solely down to ego, 100%

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So explain to me, very easily, and very clearly from a neutral foundation why maintaining etiquette built on the foundation of a trinity which now exists in name only is good and should be followed for immersion reasons but other elements of said trinity that is being followed for immersion reasons aren’t relevant

Because id really like to know why anyone should follow the tank because of the ghost of the old trinity but other elements of the old trinity should just be ignored because it’s convenient for you. Either you follow the spirit of the ghost of the trinity or your whole etiquette system collapses because there is no argument where you can both say the DPS should follow the tank because in the old trinity the tank needed to pull first but also say the tank should be able to heal on behalf of the healer when in the old system the tank relied on the healing of the healer

It’s like a textbook case of having your cake and eating it too

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So I should just run ahead and abuse my range because you say so. But when I get punished it's 100& the tank's fault and not mine because I want to abuse my range.
I don't know that sounds pretty egoistic.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

So I should just run ahead and abuse my range because you say so. But when I get punished it's 100& the tank's fault and not mine because I want to abuse my range.
I don't know that sounds pretty egoistic.

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If the tank is the one deciding to punish the DPS for pulling ahead them, yes. Because they could've just easily gone to their side and draw the aggro towards them yet they did not and because, in all likeliness, the other DPS and the healer will also pay for the tank's inaction because they'll likely still do their jobs of dpsing mobs and keeping the party alive. And it's not hard to tell when it's intentional. It's really not.

And the amount of people who carry the mobs miles aways from tank instead of bringing them into their AoE are a minority within a minority. That's not a reference population of players, that's pretty much the outlier that most players will hardly find (if ever).

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Originally Posted by TBerry

So I should just run ahead and abuse my range because you say so. But when I get punished it's 100& the tank's fault and not mine because I want to abuse my range.
I don't know that sounds pretty egoistic.

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Seeing you talking about being egoistic is kinda funny considering your whole argument revolves around "Follow my outdated made-up etiquette or I'll let you die out of petty revenge".

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

I'm from EU, I've been doing roulettes since HW and I've had yet to see anyone kick DPS who pulled ahead. Hell, the only reason that solidly gets someone kicked is being afk/offline. I've never faced a dismiss over pulling ahead of a tank and I've done this plenty of times in recent years, specially as a healer. And when I tank? I just... don't care when I can get aggro back and I know the DPS can survive for enough time before I grab the aggro back. I used to think pulling ahead of tank was rude, and then realized it was, in the end, of no consequence.

It's not an NA thing. And if my word alone isn't enough for you, there is plenty of EU veterans in this whole thread that also think YPYT is just tank ego and that DPS pulling ahead is no big deal. It's a headscratcher how you're trying to turn a molehill out of a sand grain when most people running dungeons just... don't care. There is no much story to a DPS pulling ahead other than them pulling ahead. And if you asked most of them, the answer you would get is that they're used to the rythm of W2W, nothing more and nothing less.



Even if the thread comes from a Titanmen alt, it still adresess the opposite: how some tanks use arbitrary etiquette code they've come up with to coerce and punish DPS who don't fall in with their program, which is the whole thing of YPYT (the game is not so complex or new as to not be already optimized by their players). Trying to move the goalpost in order to turn the discussion about some attempt of a psychological study on those who complain about YPYT won't really change that.

And the fun part is that the most cases of YPYT I've seen don't come from EU, but from NA. I would wager Supersnow845 has a much clearer picture on how narcissistic players can be than you think.

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100% that.

Yeah no pretty sure the tank will not let me die, but I will still be kicked.
Because it's considered rude to not wait for others.
I'd rather have a shitty run than having to wait 30 minutes because I chose to be a nuisance to others.

There's 147 pages of this hot garbage topic?

Just grab the mobs. It doesn't matter who pulls them and it isn't that deep. I'm so sorry to anyone who has to deal with tank players who are that deluded.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Yeah no pretty sure the tank will not let me die, but I will still be kicked.
Because it's considered ruse to not wait for others.
I'd rather have a shitty run than having to wait 30 minutes because I chose to be a nuisanvce to others.

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I've made tank sweat by forcing them to take bigger pulls while I was a healer in order to dispel their unfounded tanxiety and I've never, EVER, been dismissed for it. Hell, I've pulled ahead as a DPS after trying to explain time and again that they definitely can take bigger pulls (not hard to tell if the tank is never dropping below 80% hp with their pace). And I still didn't get dismiss.

It takes either being AFK/Online or being massively disruptive to the party for a Dismiss vote to be successful. And pulling ahead of the tank has seldom (if ever) made the cut in EU. And works both ways too: plenty of YPYT tanks and Cure1 only healers who don't get the boot because "let's just get this dungeon done".

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Originally Posted by Atreus

There's 147 pages of this hot garbage topic?

Just grab the mobs. It doesn't matter who pulls them and it isn't that deep. I'm so sorry to anyone who has to deal with tank players who are that deluded.

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Even when we try to let it die, titanmen will resuscitate the thread time and again. Until the time comes that a moderator closes this thread for good, it's here to stay, sadly.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

I've made tank sweat by forcing them to take bigger pulls while I was a healer in order to dispel their unfounded tanxiety and I've never, EVER, been dismissed for it. Hell, I've pulled ahead as a DPS after trying to explain time and again that they definitely can take bigger pulls (not hard to tell if the tank is never dropping below 80% hp with their pace). And I still didn't get dismiss.

It takes either being AFK/Online or being massively disruptive to the party for a Dismiss vote to be successful. And pulling ahead of the tank has seldom (if ever) made the cut in EU. And works both ways too: plenty of YPYT tanks and Cure1 only healers who don't get the boot because "let's just get this dungeon done".

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My GF has a pretty big habit of running ahead of the tanks and pulling as a healer/dps and never got any votekick initiated against her lol

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Yeah no pretty sure the tank will not let me die, but I will still be kicked.
Because it's considered ruse to not wait for others.
I'd rather have a shitty run than having to wait 30 minutes because I chose to be a nuisanvce to others.

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I play in EU as well, mind you. If there's so much votekick going around in your parties, my guess is that you're probably the one initiating them and if that's the case, I'm sorry but it's definitely not the norm and that would just be you being toxic.

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

I play in EU as well, mind you. If there's so much votekick going around in your parties, my guess is that you're probably the one initiating them and if that's the case, I'm sorry but it's definitely not the norm and that would just be you being toxic.

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I never votekicked anyone except for DC.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

I never votekicked anyone except for DC.

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Then you're overexaggarating how often it happens. Never saw any DPS in Chaos being kicked for pulling. Jesus, even people who AFK without a word don't always get kicked.

I swear the people here that are still arguing and bickering like this are such children.

Plenty of room to grow up and yet they choose not to.

But I'd be lying if I said that wasn't getting a kick out of this.

I actually got votekick by a couple months ago. I was a healer, not dps. Running ahead but not pulling, I was waiting. Then sudden kick.
When I asked why the answer was "my gf (the tank) got anxious because you pulled every pack before her". Like, what? I was standing there before every packs and never got aggro even once.

So yeah, that can happen, it's rare but it happen.

What happen more is tank refusing to tank if anyone pull before them even if you grab aggro from afar and nicely pack them on the tank.
They stance off, and start walking. I have report and kick more of them than I have fingers to count them and I only do my daily expert until half patch (like 7.1 to 7.15 for exemple) so it's not like I'm actively looking for them.

IDK my experience ever since I started is that people wait for the tank before the next pull and small pulls are no big deal, and are comfortable whit whatever pace is set. But please tell me more about my dungeon experience.

Why am I in such a rush again?

Im gonna ignore the last 4(ugh) pages.

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Originally Posted by Nyastra

In hindsight I should have clarified that this really only happens when the tank eats the floor or DCs. If it's just a regular pull, then they never really run away. (From my experience) It's very easy to heal a DPS trying to kill mobs, unless they run away.

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Emphasis mine. So... thats the thread right? No more reason to keep arguing? Its very easy. So YPYT* has no actual justification.

And on the off chance this leads to me being accused of things, ill lay out how i play real quick. I use BLM in any group content i care about unless theres a reason to do otherwise. This is what im most comfortable with. I do often play during off hours, so ive done my share of trust runs. I always pull ahead of Thancred, and we never have a problem. When im doing a run during normal hours and que up, i dont pull ahead. I dont even sprint to keep up. I run at normal speed so that the tank has time to group everything up for my big booms and so that they actually have stopped moving when i start attacking(when everything you do has a cast bar you think of these things). All my adventures in BLM tanking dungeons are during trouble(disconnects, the tank eating it, the odd alliance raid where the MT dies and neither off tank is ready to assume control). So no, im not someone causing problems for tanks. I just recognize that the behavior is wrong.

*Just because at a few points it has felt like 2 different arguments were happening concurrently, my definition of YPYT is the tank intentionally ceasing to participate normally in an attempt to kill the DPS/healer who offended them. If you pull agro of course you take a few hits before order is established. No one who pulls agro considers this anything but normal. You can tell the difference between that, and a tank trying to MPK someone.

To be honest, I used to be of that mentality but not anymore and mostly for these reasons:

- I assume that the player running ahead of me to pull enemies doesn't have any legitimate reason to do this other than trolling and the honest desire to disrupt other people's experience. Maybe they're having a bad day, maybe they're the type of person that engage in self-sabotaging behaviours, I don't really care.

- Asking them to stop or turning off tank stance to let them die doesn't resolve the issue at all. Not only you're ruining your own experience but also it antagonizes you against your fellow party members, especially if the one pulling ahead is a DPS but then the healer or the other DPS end up dying because you turned off your tank stance. At that point, any type of explanation won't matter, fingers will be pointed at you, which brings me to my next point.

- Some players do this for the sole reason of trying to "fish" for reports, that is, engaging in disruptive behaviour to incite an equivalent or worse response from you in order to build enough evidence to file a report against you. This is why you never, ever, drop down to their level.

The correct way to deal with these type of players is to continue with the duty as normal, as if nothing happened. Keep tank stance on, if they run forward to pull more, follow them and try your best to take emnity away from them and, in general, keep pushing for excelence to the best of your ability. Let their poor behaviour stand out and shine on its own. Let them jump and roll on the mud alone, look at them from a distance, cringe, and then maybe not only you but the rest of the party will report them at the end.

If you're like me and it's hard for you to keep quiet on these situations, you can always ask them politely to stop, a message like "I would appreciate if you let me handle the pulls. Thank you." should be enough and I advice against starting arguments with said players. No more communication after that and you continue playing normally as usual. If they ignore your request, it could be understood that they're doing it on purpose and at that point, the actual punishment for said poor behaviour should come from a GM since their behaviour goes against the "Lack of Consideration for Others" rule, a direct violation of the ToS.

Finally, though the FF14 community in general has rules and it is good that new players are informed of them, it is not our job as players to force other players to comply if they refuse to follow these guidelines, that is the job of the GMs, which is why my general rule is to ignore their behaviour, report them at the end and let a GM handle the situation since they're the ones who have the power to both warn and punish players for ToS violations.

Again the “lack of consideration of others” rule doesn’t work in a situation that can just be flipped around

If the DPS in question wants to pull faster then if you as the tank want to pull slower and expect everyone else to go along with your slower pull then are you by default not considering the DPS

I need someone to explain this on a way that doesn’t lean on weird expectations of etiquette or personal belief in the order of the dungeon. If you want to go slow and the DPS wants to go fast then by default someone isn’t going to get their way. By the letter of the “lack of consideration for others” part of the TOS the person who doesn’t get their way in this situation has grounds to report the other. So who ends up in the right there

You can’t unilaterally apply the TOS to one half of the equation just because you think one side is personally more “justified”

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

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Aren't you getting tired of arguing with people who don't even respond to your points? You're not going to get an explanation from these people. You asked for one multiple times and every time you get hit with another strawman.

Tank: I'm the puller. I decide the pace.

DPS x2: Nah, you're too slow. We zoom!

Healer: I'm still here? I'm still relevant (wishful thinking, I know)? Thanks for asking?