BLU for Duty Finder and Raids! Show your support!

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

Thank you so much for that, man I love it when these get brought up. And saddened.

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What's sad is that these are the slides used to try to regain trust.

And yet here they are guilty of violating them time and time again.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

You think the amount of work required for WHM/DRK/MCH adjustments is anything close to what BLU would require?

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OK, you keep saying adjustments, what needs adjusting for those 3?

Is it DPS, healing and tanking for all 3? They all do their respective jobs well, they're playable, all viable, have their own unique uses and contributes to whatever content you're bringing them too.

If it's game play then it's a rework you're asking for. A change in how a job plays. That's not a simple adjustment like "more potency, less cd, less/more enmity, more effects) but you're asking for their kit to be retuned and reworked.

Which is far more effort to do all 3 at once, making new skills and changing the game play for all 3, especially as 2 are a tank and healer, the hardest jobs to rework when compared to a DPS like BLU.

What are you trying to say needs adjusted for those 3?

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

What's sad is that these are the slides used to try to regain trust.

And yet here they are guilty of violating them time and time again.

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Yeah, it makes me happy because I feel like SE meant every word and Yoshi-P shed tears over ARR launch.

Now it's sad because in many ways they ignore what's happening in their own game, they feel they know better (see Yoshi-Ps thoughts on BLU and how unwavering they are) and the constant let down and not listening to feedback.

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

OK, you keep saying adjustments, what needs adjusting for those 3?

Is it DPS, healing and tanking for all 3? They all do their respective jobs well, they're playable, all viable, have their own unique uses and contributes to whatever content you're bringing them too.

If it's game play then it's a rework you're asking for. A change in how a job plays. That's not a simple adjustment like "more potency, less cd, less/more enmity, more effects) but you're asking for their kit to be retuned and reworked.

Which is far more effort to do all 3 at once, making new skills and changing the game play for all 3, especially as 2 are a tank and healer, the hardest jobs to rework when compared to a DPS like BLU.

What are you trying to say needs adjusted for those 3?

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WHM - Lilies
Cure I potency/cost - 450/600
Cure II potency/cost - 700/1200
Regen potency/cost - 1050/840

Regen is more cost effective and it's an instant cast which allows for weaving or movement. Secret of the Lilies I and II proc off Cure I and Cure II casts only. It would be like having oath gauge proc off Rage of Halone for PLD.

LVL 70 skills:
PLD - Passage of Arms
WAR - Inner Release
DRK - The Blackest Night
SCH - Fey Union
AST - Sleeve Draw
WHM - Plenary Indulgence

One of those is not like the others. Remember that up until patch 4.5 PI's stacks only lasted for 10 seconds.

WHM could also do with a fix for clipping and no party-dps buffs.

DRK - Would you like some Dark Arts with that Dark Arts?

MCH - Not fun to play or requires more effort to put out the same damage as a BRD

BLU - What's its playstyle? Does it get a res? How does it interact with other jobs? How does its dps compare to other casters/other jobs?

What skills does it get? It can stun, petrify, heavy, blind, paralyze, apply DMG down and even freeze groups. It has a line AoE that has twice the range of Doom Spike. It has a donut AoE. It has two skills that drop the user's health to 0. It has a tank stance and a group heal. Diamondback, Tail Screw and Missile. Over half its skills would be need to be removed or adjusted just so it wasn't a broken job. And the cap is still at lvl 50. You can be sure the new skills with each cap would need to be fixed or removed as well.

How does it get the skills? Same method of RNG? How can we have a job where its skills are locked behind RNG? The method is changed? To what?

How do we prevent BLU without some skills from getting kicked? Prevent them from queueing until they unlock skills? There still isn't an ilvl restriction for leveling dungeons or a skill restriction for other jobs.

When synced, are they prevented from using skills like other jobs, or do they continue to have access to all skills at level 1? How do we address 4 DPS sharing the same gear?

You can't think it would require anything near what current jobs require.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

What's sad is that these are the slides used to try to regain trust.

And yet here they are guilty of violating them time and time again.

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Well, that's your opinion, not a fact.
I'm glad they made BLU a limited job, therefore they didn't violate anything from my perspective.

Does BLU need some improvements? Yes, we need more content and not "carnival only" content.
Does BLU need to be cut down into pieces, delete most of his skills and lose all it's meaning just to fit a "normal" job? Hell no.

The idea of destroying BLU's nature is just terrible. I don't think deleting new content will do any good to this game; we should encourage them to improve it instead.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

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What you're asking for isn't just simple adjustments, but asking for gameplay reworks.

Lily example, I see a lot of the healing being overhealing with those potencies (and make Regen OP), or at least greater ability for WHM to solo carry.

WHM- You mean from weaving with oGCD and that WHM has a long of cast times? Why does WHM need a party DPS buff? Sounds to me you wanna homogenize it with AST. Why can't WHM pure heal? SAM and BLM allowed to pure DPS, why must a healer have to be homogenized?

DRK - What you're asking for here is a gameplay rework, in order to either cut down or remove DA from DRK. That's far more effort than simply adjusting its skills. If DA was removed DRK would just have 2 combos and a gauge dump for a DPS rotation.

MCH - Define not fun. I enjoy playing MCH and while I can see its flaws and I hope it gets reworked in ShB, you're again saying that you want another rework, which is far cry from simply adjusting Heat + potency. Of course I would like a change to Heat mechanic so it doesn't feel tacked on. Also, MCH is the hardest job to get into, but one of the easiest to play at max, as by that point you're in a 60 second unwavering rotation. It's the opposite of BRD.

BLU: Well it spams a single spell and has a DoT to upkeep and uses oGCDs. Does it need a rez to be viable? Does BLM need a rez? That's the fault of it being Limited and still its DPS is mediocre. It has good rDPS through Perculiar Light.

You serious? Despite all the cc, most of that is useless outside of trash mobs and really specific mechanics, and even then some of the CC to use deals no damage. The only consistent CC is Bad Breaths Damage down and Flying Sardines Silence. That's all for cc in most fights.

Yes a tank stance that absolutely nerfs its damage and still dies even to HM Primals if they even sneeze on it. White Wind that relies on current HP and drains your MP so you run OOM after so many casts. All those broken skills are set back with major costs (Diamondback no moving or actions for 10 seconds and MP cost) and all 3 of those are resisted by almost every boss. Like just for trash mobs they work but what job is balanced around trash mobs? Seems to me they already fixed the issue with those 3 spells by making bosses resist them fully.

No skills have to be removed. You can still have them and give then life in unsynced, where then it wouldn't matter if you break the older content.

The learning system and being unlimited are not mutually exclusive. You don't need RNG to learn skills, you can learn them 100% if SE chooses too.

Through a bar set up for being unlimited, where it bans certain options, grows and shrinks based on synced levels on amount of skills allowed and requires certain types of spells to be on it.

You can tie it to job quests needing certain skills to progress and access content in that range. Besides, whats to stop other jobs fron taking off their job stones or only using 1 or 2 of their actions? At least they have a full skill set right?

Well it seems to work fine for tanks and healers, not to mention MNK and SAM sharing same gear, all 4 accessories shared by MDPS. There doesn't need to be a change for that.

Yes, to me it will be much more work to rework 3 existing jobs and change their whole game play than it would be changing a job from Limited to unlimited.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Does BLU need some improvements? Yes, we need more content and not "carnival only" content.

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What do you mean "not carnival only"?

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Well, that's your opinion, not a fact.
I'm glad they made BLU a limited job, therefore they didn't violate anything from my perspective.

Does BLU need some improvements? Yes, we need more content and not "carnival only" content.
Does BLU need to be cut down into pieces, delete most of his skills and lose all it's meaning just to fit a "normal" job? Hell no.

The idea of destroying BLU's nature is just terrible. I don't think deleting new content will do any good to this game; we should encourage them to improve it instead.

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That's your opinion as well.

No job should ever be Limited, it just doesn't work in this game. Look at the front page, all of those jobs can be deemed Limited as it doesn't follow FF tradition (BLM not exploiting elemental weaknesses and having unlimited MP).

Limited content is practically all we seen so far. A sideshow. A Gold Saucer event that doesn't give MGP. A glorified street performer. No matter what SE do, Limited jobs will always be problematic. Far more resources have to go in to a job to stop it from dying in a week, let alone thinking it will last till end of Xpac.

You're jumping to conclusions. As people here including me keep saying, having the Learning system and being a full job are not exclusive to each other. You can have both and be able to work BLU into a full job that still has those skills. Missile, Tail Screw and Doom still don't work on most bosses, so why have them if use on useless trash?

I wouldn't mind keeping the current system, yet restricting the big offenders to Unsync play where I can use the full extent of my kit, because if I can unsync that content why does it need to be balanced?

Besides, SMN identity is its own FFXIV version, and that's far more deserving to be Limited than BLU will ever be.

Also, what's new about BLU? Apart from Learn mechanic, nothing. I do the same thing as I always do, Masked Carnival is terrible and I'm stuck at level 50 without having the benefit to even run roulettes.

This'll always happen with a Limited job.

Best way for Blue to work is to give them two skill type, skills that we have right now, for the limited content and skills intended for normal content.

As for role, they should be magic DPS with some support skills, like Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

What do you mean "not carnival only"?

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I mean BLU's potential is at Carnival and nowhere else. We should get new places to play as BLU without destroying it's essence. Maybe improving the overworld to fit it or something else.

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

Besides, SMN identity is its own FFXIV version, and that's far more deserving to be Limited than BLU will ever be.

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Sadly not. SMN is just a Warlock with a pet. I mean, it's fun to play, but it doesn't feel like a SMN at all.

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

Also, what's new about BLU? Apart from Learn mechanic, nothing.

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Wrong. BLU spells have elements and damage types to affect different enemy weaknesses, and it has all kinds of Crowd Control skills to fit into different situations. It opens a new way to play a job instead of the generic combats where there are no weaknesses, you do the same rotation over and over again, Crowd Control skills such as stunn/silence/paralyze etc are deleted and so on.

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

I do the same thing as I always do, Masked Carnival is terrible and I'm stuck at level 50 without having the benefit to even run roulettes.

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That's why we should fight for improvements instead of destroying a job. Carnival is not enough and we need more content to play as BLU, but we shouldn't destroy the job by converting it into a normal job.
Also, a reminder; you can do roulettes with lots of other jobs.

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

This'll always happen with a Limited job.

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Unless we speak out and make them change stuff. I'm up for improvements, but I still think we shouldn't destroy the "Limited" Job idea.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

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So you want what? Eureka just for BLU? Cos the regular overworld is never going to be more interesting just for BLU. Also you're the only one talking about destroying BLU dude, what most of us want is just to have a balanced skillset for BLU as well to let them into content, the limited stuff can be kept for those who like it, but having a "Battle Set" of skills to use as a regular job as well. Also:

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Everyone always talks about the "Essence" or "Identity" of BLU, however as a FF Job goes, BLU has always been one of the most flexible jobs that changes a lot, don't believe me, here we go:
FFV: Mage that learned, like RDM could use swords, got shields too, so became a middle armoured support mage
FFVI: Weak old man, very much a standard caster archetype with some weird conditions for some spells
FFVII: could literally work on any character as Enemy skill doesn't alter stats
FFVIII: Blue Magic was a limit break learned by using items
FFIX: Blue Magic was nearly all percentage based skills, and was learned by eating things
FFX: You had to use lancet to learn skills, and they were just bad (I don't like Kimari)
FFX-2: Gun mage????? Not played this one, but again pretty different
FFXI: Battle Mage, used Swords could perform multiple roles
FFTactics: Support mage that could learn some powerful damage skills
Bravely Default: Vampire, Learned monster skills alongside vampiric abilities, good debuffer and physical attacker
Bravely Second: Catmancer... That is all

Point being, Blue Mage has been radically different across all of its instalments, with the only cohesive identity being: It attacks with monster abilities. So I really don't get where everyones coming from with this preserving the jobs identity chat, because its identity is super malleable as it is.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

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Jobs broken already, people are barely queuing for the content anymore so skills are way harder to get. FFXIV is heavily instance based, which means that less and less reason to go overworld unless you're a gatherer or doing maps or FATEs. That's not good design to have BLU be strictly overworld (why would you limit yourself to the overworld, where nothing happens? And why only cater to one job having to be relegated to it? Eureka everywhere?)

Well despite having reasons why SMN was allowed to be a full job shows they know how to adapt and how SMN is embracing more and more of its SMN side with Bahamut. Why can't BLU be a full job?

The elemental weaknesses are more inconsiquential than in Eureka even. It only applies in Masked Carnival which is already easy and you can get by ignoring it and spamming non-aspected attacks. Bosses are immune to most of the cc, bosses inside carnival too, including our most broken tools. Why is our solo content still limited? Cc is being less and less relevant as the game goes on as SE is moving to a more streamlined system.

If you want to exploit weaknesses, maybe Black Mage should be Limited too? I mean, spamming Fire on Ifrit, that's immersion breaking and against FF tradition, should we limit that?

And the old you have other jobs, you don't need this one. Wrong. I want to play this job. What about new races, we already have 6, guess we don't need Viera then.

No Gunbreaker then. Should of stuck with all the old 1.0 jobs as we clearly don't need those to be added, as they're all just "other jobs".

Btw we'll have more content as BLU if we were a full job, then we wouldn't need have lazy/spiteful production for content that couldn't last even a week.

P.S I think you want FFXIV to be more like FFXI than FFXIV

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

So you want what? Eureka just for BLU? Cos the regular overworld is never going to be more interesting just for BLU. Also you're the only one talking about destroying BLU dude, what most of us want is just to have a balanced skillset for BLU as well to let them into content, the limited stuff can be kept for those who like it, but having a "Battle Set" of skills to use as a regular job as well. Also:

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All I want is different content, I don't want a stagnant game. I think this game deserves new content to improve the experience.

BLU is a first step, let's see what we get in the future.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Everyone always talks about the "Essence" or "Identity" of BLU, however as a FF Job goes, BLU has always been one of the most flexible jobs that changes a lot, don't believe me, here we go:
FFV: Mage that learned, like RDM could use swords, got shields too, so became a middle armoured support mage
FFVI: Weak old man, very much a standard caster archetype with some weird conditions for some spells
FFVII: could literally work on any character as Enemy skill doesn't alter stats
FFVIII: Blue Magic was a limit break learned by using items
FFIX: Blue Magic was nearly all percentage based skills, and was learned by eating things
FFX: You had to use lancet to learn skills, and they were just bad (I don't like Kimari)
FFX-2: Gun mage????? Not played this one, but again pretty different
FFXI: Battle Mage, used Swords could perform multiple roles
FFTactics: Support mage that could learn some powerful damage skills
Bravely Default: Vampire, Learned monster skills alongside vampiric abilities, good debuffer and physical attacker
Bravely Second: Catmancer... That is all

Point being, Blue Mage has been radically different across all of its instalments, with the only cohesive identity being: It attacks with monster abilities. So I really don't get where everyones coming from with this preserving the jobs identity chat, because its identity is super malleable as it is.

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They had different styles, yet almost all of them had something in common; the way they learn the skills, and how the weaknesses affected in combat.

Also this quite supports my point. If BLU was so different on other Final Fantasy series, why shouldn't we accept FFXIV's BLU being different? Why should we turn it into a generic role?

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

Jobs broken already, people are barely queuing for the content anymore so skills are way harder to get. FFXIV is heavily instance based, which means that less and less reason to go overworld unless you're a gatherer or doing maps or FATEs. That's not good design to have BLU be strictly overworld (why would you limit yourself to the overworld, where nothing happens? And why only cater to one job having to be relegated to it? Eureka everywhere?)

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Improving the overworld to fit new content, instead of leaving the overworld like what it is right now; easy and meaningless. And comparing a better overworld with Eureka is a mistake. Eureka is a separated system that works for it's purpose. Improving overworld doesn't necessarily means copying Eureka. Maybe the first step can be putting higher level mobs on some maps, or hard-to-access zones that needs people to open the way to access certain content (a boss? a treasure hunt? there are plenty of ideas)

The overworld right now feels meaningless once you get the flying mount, and basing the MMO in "duty-only" content is good for casual playing, but it would be cool to do something relevant in the overworld. This is a MMORPG and not a DutyRPG afterall.

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

Well despite having reasons why SMN was allowed to be a full job shows they know how to adapt and how SMN is embracing more and more of its SMN side with Bahamut. Why can't BLU be a full job?

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The question is, Why can't BLU be BLU? Why should we refuse to keep all the skills and limit BLU to have only around 24 skills? Also lore-wise it wouldn't make any sense for now.

The fun thing about BLU is that you can do your own builds and play different. At level 50 it feels like a weak job, but I guess once we git level 60 and 70 we will get more important skills.
What we should fight for righ now is to improve BLU and ask for more relevant content instead of the Carnival-only mentality they have right now.

Also, we have different jobs in FFXIV. We have battle jobs, gatherer jobs and crafter jobs. Why can't we have a different ramification? Should we ask SE to change Miner to a combat class with it's own rotation and stuff? Wouldn't make any sense, right?

About SMN, it's improving on every expansion, but it doesn't feel like a SMN yet.

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

The elemental weaknesses are more inconsiquential than in Eureka even. It only applies in Masked Carnival which is already easy and you can get by ignoring it and spamming non-aspected attacks. Bosses are immune to most of the cc, bosses inside carnival too, including our most broken tools. Why is our solo content still limited? Cc is being less and less relevant as the game goes on as SE is moving to a more streamlined system.

If you want to exploit weaknesses, maybe Black Mage should be Limited too? I mean, spamming Fire on Ifrit, that's immersion breaking and against FF tradition, should we limit that?

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The point is that there's no need to change the combat system. The point is to have different content. Should we limit BLU skills and convert all of them to unaspected damage?

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

And the old you have other jobs, you don't need this one. Wrong. I want to play this job. What about new races, we already have 6, guess we don't need Viera then.

No Gunbreaker then. Should of stuck with all the old 1.0 jobs as we clearly don't need those to be added, as they're all just "other jobs".

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You can play BLU any time you want, I think. But you can't do actual duty content as BLU just like you can't raid with a Miner.

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

Btw we'll have more content as BLU if we were a full job, then we wouldn't need have lazy/spiteful production for content that couldn't last even a week.

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We would have exactly the same content, nothing new. Just a mage with new flashy skills doing the same than the rest of casters. And yes, BLU content needs to improve, I'm up for that.

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

P.S I think you want FFXIV to be more like FFXI than FFXIV

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Yes and no.

Yes: I wish the overworld was meaningful and dangerous.
No: FFXI had a lot of time-consuming stuff, just like 1.0 had (and that's why it sucked). I love how accessible FFXIV's content is and how it adapts lots of play styles.

We can get the good stuff and leave the bad behind.eric role?

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

All I want is different content, I don't want a stagnant game. I think this game deserves new content to improve the experience.

BLU is a first step, let's see what we get in the future.



They had different styles, yet almost all of them had something in common; the way they learn the skills, and how the weaknesses affected in combat.

Also this quite supports my point. If BLU was so different on other Final Fantasy series, why shouldn't we accept FFXIV's BLU being different? Why should we turn it into a generic role?

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So you're not right here either, the way they learned was also different in every game. What was common amongst all of them was that they used ENEMY skills, not the how. As to why it should be a "generic" role, thats because there's no reason why it shouldn't. You can keep the limited crap content for the people who like it, and also get a Job people can use. Because people like me who've wanted this job for years now can't play it in the content that I play the game for. Also why do you support the Devs in the implement now patch later mindset. Implementing bad content now doesn't justify the content if its patched to be good later.
I will agree with you that the game does need new content, there's just no excuse to making that new content A) Bad. B) Withholding an Iconic Job C) mutually exclusive to also getting "generic" stuff. People seem to get this misconception about the folk that want BLU to be a normal job don't want new things and just screech, its not that we don't want new things, its that we want new things that are actually worth the effort, not a halfbaked proof of concept which clearly could have a normal and limited side, but has just been chosen not to. It's like when diadem was released... twice... people said "Oh just wait a while, think of what it could be!". Yeah look how that turned out. I don't want BLU to suffer the same, because its my Fav FF job, and its been done dirty

Bump, lets keep this up to at least Japan fanfest, hopefully onwards as well

I doubt they'll address Blue Mage until after the expansion hype train has finished, unless Blue Mage was already to be addressed in that train. Like they may have some big update news to Blue Mage that was already planned. I'm sure afterwards, it might be possible to be mentioned though.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

You can keep the limited crap content for the people who like it, and also get a Job people can use.

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129 abilities to choose from. That is (minimum) what we're coming up to with BLU.

Convince me that a balanced version using just 25ish (average for most jobs) of those, with a rotation and mechanic of its own that doesn't rely on tilted synergies or choosing which abilities to take or not take (it has to have a reason its fun inside of that balanced "for duty roulette" environment, after all), is actually possible...on top of creating challenges for the version that can choose abilities and does have access to tilted synergies...while also developing two other new jobs and reworking the others to varying degrees.

I think you've underestimated the work needed for both approaches to be done, but hey, I'm open to convincing arguments here.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I doubt they'll address Blue Mage until after the expansion hype train has finished, unless Blue Mage was already to be addressed in that train. Like they may have some big update news to Blue Mage that was already planned. I'm sure afterwards, it might be possible to be mentioned though.

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Well we've known that they have something like 78 more skills waiting in the wings since the job was originally going to be launched with 4.4 and they've had time to prep some work for it ahead of time.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

129 abilities to choose from. That is (minimum) what we're coming up to with BLU.

Convince me that a balanced version using just 25ish (average for most jobs) of those, with a rotation and mechanic of its own that doesn't rely on tilted synergies or choosing which abilities to take or not take (it has to have a reason its fun inside of that balanced "for duty roulette" environment, after all), is actually possible...on top of creating challenges for the version that can choose abilities and does have access to tilted synergies...while also developing two other new jobs and reworking the others to varying degrees.

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Okay. First a balanced duty set that you must equip to go into the df doesnt need to have the same 24 restriction, it could use as many as needed but i digress I can make an argument even with just 24. To make a balanced rotation out of the 50 skills we currently have we only need to take 14 ish skills. assuming going forward we will get a lot more of what we have already: repeat skills (130 potency aoes say high and they arnt the only repeats, wouldnt put it past them to do something similar but with a single target skill, so 1 for each element), joke moves like sardine, and moves that would be useless/ very niche in a high end setting (self destruct, the deaths/ percentage skills). Not to mention as we reach higher levels we could get spells that just straight up replace skills we have already in the balanced stuff, like something better than mind blast for weaving, or a more powerful spammable aoe or dot like other classes get replacements.

All that being said it is very possible that outta all the skills we end up with there can be a balanced set as:

TLDR: Repeat skill of all forms, possibility of direct upgrade skills, meme abilities for the lols, and stuff that won't work on bosses/ are very impractical mean a set of 24 hand picked by the devs could be achieved.

Edit, where are you getting 129 from btw, i always see it quoted around 100 total skills.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

Well we've known that they have something like 78 more skills waiting in the wings since the job was originally going to be launched with 4.4 and they've had time to prep some work for it ahead of time.

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Oh yeah, sorry what I meant to be different wording/clearer is that they will not address Blue Mage again unless they had already intended to address Blue Mage.. or least until the hype train is done. Also they may decide to not address Blue Mage when they had planned to if what they were to announce doesn't touch a upon a single element of what fans had issue with.

Lets say for example they've got a bunch of similarly balanced spells to add and were going to show them off, nothing really mixing it up - more different colors of the same attacks.. probably would just cause a lot more issues than hype. However, if they had a bunch of OP spells to show off maybe they still would. And if they didn't have something planned before I find it unlikely they would now unless they somehow addressed at least come criticism they received (which would be a really fast turn around rate, given that they're also on the eve of an expansion drop).

Or finally.. Unless Blue Mage related content is released from SE in the meantime or until the expansion is out, I'm not sure if keeping this thread active will do anything except maybe get it locked for being bumped too many times. A few bumps seems to not be an issue but too many bumps and I've seen stuff get locked lol. I'm not telling people what to do, just thinking it wont have any effect on the dev team until they've got a chance to breath in something other than Shadowbringers. I'm saying that as well as someone who does hope for changes in blue mage, not trying to sweep the thread away.. just suggesting the best action on blue mage is probably in a few months and not really right now (especially as I'm sure they've seen/heard what people believe the issues are with the job/concept now).

further BLU development will mimic egi-glamours I'd wager.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Okay. First a balanced duty set that you must equip to go into the df doesnt need to have the same 24 restriction, it could use as many as needed but i digress I can make an argument even with just 24. To make a balanced rotation out of the 50 skills we currently have we only need to take 14 ish skills. assuming going forward we will get a lot more of what we have already: repeat skills (130 potency aoes say high and they arnt the only repeats, wouldnt put it past them to do something similar but with a single target skill, so 1 for each element), joke moves like sardine, and moves that would be useless/ very niche in a high end setting (self destruct, the deaths/ percentage skills). Not to mention as we reach higher levels we could get spells that just straight up replace skills we have already in the balanced stuff, like something better than mind blast for weaving, or a more powerful spammable aoe or dot like other classes get replacements.

All that being said it is very possible that outta all the skills we end up with there can be a balanced set as:

TLDR: Repeat skill of all forms, possibility of direct upgrade skills, meme abilities for the lols, and stuff that won't work on bosses/ are very impractical mean a set of 24 hand picked by the devs could be achieved.

Edit, where are you getting 129 from btw, i always see it quoted around 100 total skills.

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All you've done is chosen the skills that would likely show up in a rotation balanced for group play.
That's maybe 1/3 of what you'd need to do - you'd also need a mechanic around which those abilities play, since the tilted and OP synergies aren't an option, and choosing different visuals for identical abilities is not a mechanic to build a job around. What's the mechanic for the job, the way Umbral Ice/Astral Fire is for BLM, or balancing Black/White mana is for RDM, or building toward DWT and Bahamut is for SMN?

You'd also need to figure out what the collection of abilities for the set rotation is going to look like when the next set show up (the 120+ is from the Famitsu interview article done in December, where he mentions they have "about 128 developed and they are planning on adding them in order in the future."), since the job will be getting significantly abilities than other jobs, and preventing later (particularly popular) abilities from being used in the rotation just because they showed up later wouldn't go over very well.

You also haven't explained how you'd fit doing that and keeping the non-DF version that has access to all spells up to date with new content for it to challenge.

As I said - you've underestimated the amount of development time that would likely be required to make it work (for what would be, in the end, minimal gain).

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Originally Posted by Berethos

snip

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Now im not a game designer so thats not my job, but ill give it a crack anyway. For an idea of how they would interplay, you could have it work that casting certain attacks on bosses changes the bosses elemental affinity gauge, (blu job gauge) so for example casting water canon X number of times raises water, then when you do a lightning attack like shock strike, it resets the water on the gauge and makes the lightning deal bonus damage. So the mechanical interplay becomes casting weaker spells to build up to the oGCDs as burst, while keeping your non elemental dot (dots) ticking. This is all on top of the fact that blus kit already has some synergy between abilities in it (not much but hey), bristle+song of torment, primal ability timers linin up with you peculiar light, mind blast becoming a weaving tool in pec light.

I would do it so the balanced set turns up in sets of 10 after level 50, so once you hit 50 you an do a quest to unlock the balance set, which gives you the 1-50 section of your ability list to use in dungeons, then at 60 you do the same ect. Each skill in the balance list has a level associated so blu can sync.

With this in place non-df blu could say learn level 80 skills while blu has its balanced level 80 set, and df blu can't use those skills until next expac if they are in. I'd be fine with that, I don't mind that other classes only get new abilities with a new expac, so id apply the same standard to df, so i think it would go over just fine, sure people would grumble but people grumble about everything, the easy counter argument is just "Other classes don't get new skills after they hit cap, so neither does df blu"

Finally minimal gain is relative, I think it would be a quite large gain over what we currently have, because as the unofficial census shows us, and what people are telling us on here and reddit, people arn't using blu past like a week. So having it as a job people can main will give it exponentially more use time, and please the large number of people (myself included) who have been wanting BLU to main for a long ass time, just some anecdotal stuff, I know people who resubbed to play BLU because they love BLU like me, then unsubbed again after a week because they couldn't main or do anything with it. I never said it wouldn't take dev resources, so ive not underestimated anything, I just think it still should be done, because pleasing both sides is a win for everything.

Quote:

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Polygon: While Blue Mage was released to be a solo-oriented class, players have been partying up more than ever to collect skills, clear dungeons, etc. How was the release of Blue Mage different from what you initially expected it to be?

Naoki Yoshida: The release of Blue Mage did not fall far from my expectations — the job was not meant to be subject to the standard rules of FF14 gameplay that players are used to, but rather it was meant to give players freedom in the way they approach the job. That is why it is a “limited job” only in the sense of content matching; there is no limit to the type of play style, and that was the initial concept behind it.

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:')))

https://www.polygon.com/2019/2/19/18...hida-interview

I wonder if anyone even has any idea what's going on there. At the very least I can't take anything they say in fanfests and live letters seriously anymore, if it has any relation to what's actually in the game it's usually an utter, complete contradiction.

I think they play on the ambiguity part.

A lot of people did play BLU on release day, in parties, in party finder etc.

Now, the feedback is another thing. And that's conveniently not mentioned in the interview.

Sadly, as I see it, those tons of people playing it those first few days means it was a success to them. Even if most people disliked it by the end or have given up on it.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Now, the feedback is another thing. And that's conveniently not mentioned in the interview.

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Forget that, Yoshi totally sidestepped the question and even contradicted himself. "BLU is freeform"? What option do I have in how to play it if I want to acquire my skills? And if what happened was in line with what he envisioned, why call it 'designed for solo play'? And if it's designed for solo play, where's my freedom? But oh I do kind of run in parties so I guess it wasn't designed for solo play at all?!
Contradictions on top of contradictions. I enjoy far too many mainstream, streamlined elements to the game or I'd have unsubscribed a long time ago, at least between story patches :(

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

:')))

https://www.polygon.com/2019/2/19/18...hida-interview

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I dont understand the "play your own style" aspect, youre about as free to play your own way with blu as you are to choose not to use jumps on drg. The only choice you have is what colour of 130 potency aoe you want.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Forget that, Yoshi totally sidestepped the question and even contradicted himself. "BLU is freeform"? What option do I have in how to play it if I want to acquire my skills? And if what happened was in line with what he envisioned, why call it 'designed for solo play'? And if it's designed for solo play, where's my freedom? But oh I do kind of run in parties so I guess it wasn't designed for solo play at all?!
Contradictions on top of contradictions. I enjoy far too many mainstream, streamlined elements to the game or I'd have unsubscribed a long time ago, at least between story patches :(

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Yeah, it really does not make sense when you think it through.

Now they can't just rely on the number of people playing on release day. I guess they have an eye on Masked Carnivale weekly challenges? I know for Eureka, Yoshi-P said they checked the amount of players on a regular basis in each Eureka zone to get an idea of the playerbase involvement there.
While Blue Mage would be slightly different. Surely they have to get an eye on players feedback on the forums. I know that on the French forum, the BLU thread is created by a Community Rep and it invites us to give feedback there...
Maybe a Q&A in Tokyo could tackle the issue a bit.

Judging by the Kotaku article, Yoshi P seems to be doubling down on the limited job idea.. Not once mentioning the fans reaction to it.

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Originally Posted by Shadowshinra

Judging by the Kotaku article, Yoshi P seems to be doubling down on the limited job idea.. Not once mentioning the fans reaction to it.

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You mean immensely popular? Ok I exaggerate, but to consider it failure is dishonest. The fans' reaction is in no way monolithic.

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Originally Posted by MsQi

You mean immensely popular? Ok I exaggerate, but to consider it failure is dishonest. The fans' reaction is in no way monolithic.

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If you look at the unofficial census I wouldn't call it exactly popular. Less that 20% on EU/NA of active players have reached level 50. And thats just reaching level 50, its probably safe to assume that most of those have dropped it since then as it can't do anything, but we have no way to track that.

With some side information that at first seemed to be wrong.. I hope that perhaps his approach to blue mage is this way because there is a lot more left to be revealed about them.

As some may recall we've seen "support damage dealer" as a description of blue mage, and things like "starts at level 60, probably". . . Clearly that's wrong. . or is it?

If it is true that we would have blue mage be a regular job announced before shadowbringer release then he might just be holding it in the chamber, especially when a majority of people having issue with blue mage would have their issue be solved in such a move.

Of course those comments could have been fake and it's wrong, but eh.. just a thought on why he'd approach Blue Mage like this (because he's got something to say that pertains to our issues, but is holding on to it for events).

If there is nothing planned though it does make me a bit sad to see Yoshi-P talk about it so smoothly as if there were no bumps in the experience. But like I said.. if there is a plan already in the system and they're just waiting on the scheduled time to fire off the news then it would make sense to me that he's like "yeah things are going as expected, yep yep, choo choo next topic ;)".

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

If you look at the unofficial census I wouldn't call it exactly popular. Less that 20% on EU/NA of active players have reached level 50. And thats just reaching level 50, its probably safe to assume that most of those have dropped it since then as it can't do anything, but we have no way to track that.

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Yeah that really should not count as successful, especially since this was such a wanted job and because we dont have huge new amount of content when it got released. Also it was seemingly quite easy to just reach lvl 50 (with getting all the skills was the harder part) if you know how to do that (never got to 50 myself because I kinda found it boring and had a break for a month) so that is one low number.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

If you look at the unofficial census I wouldn't call it exactly popular. Less that 20% on EU/NA of active players have reached level 50. And thats just reaching level 50, its probably safe to assume that most of those have dropped it since then as it can't do anything, but we have no way to track that.

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It's been out a month. In the 7-9 months that Savage is relevant, what percentage of players attempt it? What about the percentage of players with AST/DRK/MCH at level 60 in the 3.5+ years since they released?

well... in this interview for Kotaku Yoshi plainly stated there's no plans to remove the limited for BLU. Make with it what you will, here's the link: https://kotaku.com/final-fantasy-xiv...vis-1832757804

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Originally Posted by SoleilAlphi

well... in this interview for Kotaku Yoshi plainly stated there's no plans to remove the limited for BLU. Make with it what you will, here's the link: https://kotaku.com/final-fantasy-xiv...vis-1832757804

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https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c5/f3...ff5299bf38.gif

That was a disappointing read on Blue Mage, imo.

Left reading that with a huge... bleh feeling lol (speaking on the answer to blue mage specifically).

Hopefully it was a smokescreen for info to be released later or the internal discussion is different. .

Edit: (Not saying Blue Mage HAS to be DF but the current state doesn't really feel valuable either)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shougun

If there is nothing planned though it does make me a bit sad to see Yoshi-P talk about it so smoothly as if there were no bumps in the experience. But like I said.. if there is a plan already in the system and they're just waiting on the scheduled time to fire off the news then it would make sense to me that he's like "yeah things are going as expected, yep yep, choo choo next topic ;)".

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To be fair, even if there was some problems he's sort of the face of this game. Of course he's not going to talk about it negatively in an interview. We don't have any true numbers to gauge just how popular BLU is so we can't really say one way or the other. Personally I don't think BLU in its current state is a bad concept...but there are certainly improvements to be made. I also have a feeling that they'll leave BLU to rot for awhile like they did with Gold Saucer.

If they kept it fairly up to date (like, 10 levels below the current expansion's cap) and added fun new abilities that are actually useful (as well as making adjustments to what has been added already to make them all viable) then it would probably turn out decent. They also don't seem to really know what they want from it. Either make it a god in old content or remove the Limited status, SE. Right now it is subpar at best at lvl 50 and learning spells is awful. The Masked Carnivale is also sorta pointless. It could definitely be way more interesting than it currently is. Give them the tools to survive old trials and raids (and remove the heavy RNG for learning spells) and people will have a blast, even if people have to become really skilled at doing so.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

To be fair, even if there was some problems he's sort of the face of this game. Of course he's not going to talk about it negatively in an interview. We don't have any true numbers to gauge just how popular BLU is so we can't really say one way or the other. Personally I don't think BLU in its current state is a bad concept...but there are certainly improvements to be made. I also have a feeling that they'll leave BLU to rot for awhile like they did with Gold Saucer.

If they kept it fairly up to date (like, 10 levels below the current expansion's cap) and added fun new abilities that are actually useful (as well as making adjustments to what has been added already to make them all viable) then it would probably turn out decent. They also don't seem to really know what they want from it. Either make it a god in old content or remove the Limited status, SE. Right now it is subpar at best at lvl 50 and learning spells is awful. The Masked Carnivale is also sorta pointless. It could definitely be way more interesting than it currently is. Give them the tools to survive old trials and raids (and remove the heavy RNG for learning spells) and people will have a blast, even if people have to become really skilled at doing so.

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I guess I'm more used to (or want to be used to/prefer) the 1.0 Yoshida that talked about issues openly. But definitely normally a dev shouldn't be going on about how X Y Z feature might be bad lol, or if X / Y players dislike / like it as a unit. Perhaps even harder for him to be that way with the expansion coming out soon lol. So I'll take your to be fair, at least with some salt XD.

I agree about what you think should happen to blue mage. Preferably we get both but I understand that's a huge request; however, I feel like over time it becomes a cost effective request at least when you consider most of the job would already be developed then (lore, concepts, many spells, etc). And the issues, I feel, are very solve-able (like making a subset of skills obtained have a DF variant that is balanced, and you must have it to queue).

Blue Mage currently, imo, does not feel worth my attention (outside of getting me easy free teleports once a week lol, but I don't really have fun with that- it's just an easy source). As equal level/synced tanks can currently tank better than blue mage there are some cases where you'd do better going as a sync'd tank than blue mage. As Blue Mage's powerhouse abilities come from a lot of buff stacking or very low chance it doesn't feel that fun to go "OP", vs I'd easily have fun throat punching the boss as my level 70 tank unsynced. Made worse when you add that a few of the spells are low drop rate instanced content.

If Blue Mage became a solo god, I'd see value in him even if I still wished I could DF with him (I'd at least be like "this job is of value to my enjoyable experience in the game"). Also this is coming from someone who really wanted to play Blue Mage in this game (having requested it a few times ;/).

He is currently however not that, at least I feel strongly that way, but it is my opinion. As soon as he hits level "x" to enter content that content should start to run scared then :3 (and I assume would never be allowed into current tier content so people use their normal jobs on that).

God tier Blue Mage or a Blue Mage that can PF/Solo stuff with a huge skill list and can DF with a balanced list are really the two lights I see for blue mage. It's current status for me is dedicated to hoping it changes to either of those two as I don't really like it's current status (had some fun with 1k needle until it became a bit powerless, now it's just a content tool for seals (teleports) that I don't want to touch otherwise).