well im just saying it works pretty damn good in wow. it sounds like u think wow has aoes or movement because it has and the buff works just as fine as it would hereQuote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
and btw a1 you dont move alot thats just wrong if would be moving too much in a1 i would not have WM up very often as well
Bard - they broke my job
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08-28-2015, 02:09 AMyamochan
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08-28-2015, 02:10 AMGreywolfamakirTurn off WM is not a big lost of DPS if You don't need to refresh DoTs, I mean, You can turn off WM for 3-6 seconds and You are gonna lose a bit of DPS, not a big thing...Quote:
Originally Posted by xyaie
When You turn off WM you be able to auto attack...skills do -30% damage, but you are doing auto attacks and if You don't refresh DoTs, they are hitting with +30% from WM.
If you wanna play like BRD and keep a good level of skill like player, you should feel comfortable when stance dance is demanded. -
08-28-2015, 02:21 AMAiseliaBRD MP/TP regen hinges upon not using Foe's, though. It's also not reliable if you plan on using Foe's to buff damage. If you use BV on Foe's, that's even less reliable as you'd be generating less TP/MP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir
If a melee DPS dies just after you've finished draining all your MP with Foe's, guess who's not getting TP from the Bard after a revive?
Or what if healers need MP and melee need TP at the same time? What then? And what if they need both but you already burnt all your MP on Foe's?!?!?!?!?!?!
Doesn't seem that reliable to me at all.
A healer's own MP regen on the other hand, especially Scholar, seems far more reliable to me than Bard singing.
And a Monk can generate 700 TP for themselves every 2 minutes. That seems pretty reliable to me. -
08-28-2015, 02:52 AMGreywolfamakirOMG...I have to read this...for real?...Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
You know how combat works, when healers are gonna spend a lot of MP, or when melee are gonna need TP...
TP/MP regen from BRD is totally reliable if you know what are you playing...if you think that MP/TP regen from BRD/MCH is no reliable becouse Foe drains mana, you need a bit more practice like player. Just two tips.
1--> You can cancel Foe Requiem song if you push the same key.
2-->
http://i.imgur.com/DxHKHUp.png -
08-28-2015, 02:53 AMRiceisNiceIt's an auxiliary source, a clutch if you will. So far I've never acutally used TP turret/song in any of the savage floors, only using mp during true downtimes or crunch time when it came to healer output.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
The fact remains that it draws from the same source; the bard's mana. It's not 100% uptime of either one and it's mana management on the bard's end. That's their trade off compared to machinist's regen:damage boost, where the latter is hinged on a 2 minute cooldown. Esp when you add on the effects of battle voice as well; Bard can eitehr get a more potent damage boost or a boosted regen, the former being at a much higher degree (20%), while MCH can only squeeze a little of the boosted regen and a 5% magic boost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir
It allows me to give my raid the illusion of choice of what they want in regards to the regen:damage boost ratio in A2s, because they can't make me play BRD even if they paid me. -
08-28-2015, 02:58 AMyamochandont forget astrologican mana/tp reg card with the buff we will see way more astros in raids then before...Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
and yes maybe NIN tp reg isnt as great but it come at no costs
also yeah you can time you foe and even just for some seconds if a heal crys for mana you will fcking play manasong no matter how much u have but why ...... hmmm cause oh yeah heal got no mana you die! -
08-28-2015, 03:10 AMAiseliaI know when people are going to accidentally step into the AOE and get killed so they'll need TP/MP when they get revived?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir
I must be psychic. BRB, going to buy my cactpot ticket.
Which does nothing if all of your MP is already gone because they need TP/MP after you've been playing Foe's for a minute, so I'm not sure why you think this is relevant in any way at all, since my entire post wasn't "What if you're already playing Foe's," but "What if you don't have any MP left because of Foe's."Quote:
You can cancel Foe Requiem song if you push the same key.
Tip: Goad is more useful than Paeon if one TP user (except the ninja obviously) dies and needs TP, because it won't cost anyone any extra DPS.
You can't 100% rely on a Bard to play TP/MP songs in a pinch if they're also playing Foe's as much as possible for the extra damage. -
08-28-2015, 03:21 AMGreywolfamakirYou should play a bit more and write a bit less here I think...Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
Im not waste my time with that kind of comments...
If you really think Goad is more reliable than TP song...I'm done...you are right, TP and MP song are useless, but every good party have a BRD or MCH...maybe you should speak with them... -
08-28-2015, 03:31 AMRiceisNiceGoad is better at keeping people at optimal levels, or helping an individual who needs tp, whereas bards sing when people are at dangerous levels (or downtime) because of how it incurs a damage penalty. Though I still stick by this; I've never had to use a TP song for my savage runs. If people have died, goad would be better for this because only one person out of the entire party needs a TP-pick up and a damage penalty doesn't come with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir
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08-28-2015, 03:43 AMMoomba33Sorry to bump up an older post when the conversation seems to have moved on, but I just wanted to say that this perfectly sums up how I feel about Bard right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by seorin
I also agree with the poster later on who said that the cast mechanic seemed to have been developed with MCH in mind and then pasted on to BRD.
I don't see this mechanic being changed now as BRD is functional and not being excluded from parties or anything serious like that.
I just find it disappointing that the job seems to have been changed for the sake of change instead of added on to. Perhaps I would feel better if our new support move Warden's Paean wasn't so situational. As its stands I feel like my previously favourite job just got more irritating and didn't gain anything fun. -
08-28-2015, 03:54 AMAiseliaWhat does any of that have to do with "You can't predict when someone will die and need TP/MP but you're out of MP because of Foe's"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir
Quote:
If you really think Goad is more reliable than TP song
Reading the full sentence and not stopping after the first 6 words is often integral to understanding the sentence.Quote:
Tip: Goad is more useful than Paeon if one TP user (except the ninja obviously) dies and needs TP
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08-28-2015, 04:00 AMyamochannp in getting back to an old one when it speaks the absolut truth ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Moomba33
but it seems to me like SE wont change a thing for they say BRD works as intendet... dont ask me who put that in their heads but yeah but the situation
and thats also the reason why i still post in here so that maybe if we are extremly lucky someone with he right mindset from the devs will read this and get what kind of bs they put us through. -
08-28-2015, 07:33 AMPopeHat
I've noticed more PF's looking for bards than ever before, at least Monk got some buffs though.
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08-28-2015, 09:08 AMGaignenSwiftcast Fire IV (for example).Quote:
Originally Posted by xyaie
Firestarter (far more frequently than Straighter shot).
Thundercloud (just to add another option.
And only when these are not an option do BLM have to resort to Scathing to keep casting.
Bard has no swiftcast and a weak RNG that only got weaker with 3.x because we hit Heavy Shot less often than before. -
08-28-2015, 09:36 AMInferiaeBecause a lot of people just stopped playing BRD after the changes :cQuote:
Originally Posted by PopeHat
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08-28-2015, 11:45 AMClarkamiteI typed out this whole thing to respond to what you put in here but I decided you would probably argue it tooth and nail so I deleted it. Let me just simply say that the Bard toolkit and the BLM toolkit are not similar. They don't even play similarly enough to give merit to all the comparisons. A lot of Bards are unhappy with the new play style. Understandable. Please stop saying you guys are BLM's. You're not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaignen
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08-28-2015, 12:50 PMSlyRoyaleSorry for the late reply, Flo. Got caught up with playing the game and real life stuff. Anyway...Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
I still have yet to seriously level MCH or watch any videos of MCH play, so I cannot make any accurate comparisons between the two jobs. I can say that despite BRD being a bit clunky, it is still functional enough to be viable in any group. Ever since the Minuet change, including the recent patch that fixed still getting a cast bar after turning it off (which I doubt worked since I still experienced that situation in a Fractal run earlier today), the job is functional enough to be brought in for progression raids. The ability to play resource songs during downtime or during a dire emergency, being able to buff all caster damage, and still being able to put out a steady stream of damage is nothing to scoff at.
Even if the job feels clunky compared to pre-HW and the supported claims of WM being tacked on as a clone of MCH's GB, it can still function effectively in any encounter and I doubt SE will make any significant changes unless they notice some statistics that make them consider creating further adjustments. There is also the matter that the ability is called Minuet, so if SE had to change it they would either have to keep within the theme of a "slow dance" or completely overhaul the ability. I like the mention of "Sniper Training" another poster made in this thread. Without the cast bars, we can easily weave in double oGCDs again while still promoting the play style of staying stationary for a damage boost. Still, I'll just wait and see what SE does. Whatever changes happen to the job, it will still be my main. No doubt about it. -
08-28-2015, 12:52 PMDragonHunterG
never played bard too much, didn't like the class. picked up machinist class finally a few days ago to give a try and loved it. it must have been what bards were used to. fast, mobile, lots of fun. then i get gauss barrel at 52 and it literally changes the entire way you play. the cast times are b.s. and really detract from the spirit of the job. i can see now why bard players are up in arms over this. it's just not fun to sit there and wait for an extra 2 seconds for every weapon skill, when they build up the job to play in certain way up to the point, then pull the rug out from under you. sucks because the machinist job is damn cool concept too. not to mention the cast time animation is just plain weird.
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08-28-2015, 02:59 PMLinadaeYes but at least by 60 MCHs have their full toolkit that revolves around speeding up or even removing the cast timers that GB forces on them. Bards don't get this luxury...EVER. Hence why Bard is clunky and unfun. The class was not build with WM in mind. It was tacked on so it would be just the same as mch so that people wouldn't have to choose between playing a ranged dps with casttimers or playing one without. In truth, they clearly didn't trust that people would play mch unless they tacked cast timers on to bard as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonHunterG
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08-28-2015, 05:23 PMAlkelAnd by doing so, they just got the opposite effect: people who dont want cast time are not playing BRD anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Linadae
Some switched to MCH because its working well with GB.
Considering all the PF looking for a BRD/MCH atm, i bet the BRD/MCH population today is lesser than the BRD population pre 3.0 -
08-28-2015, 07:56 PMWarlyxQFTQuote:
Originally Posted by Linadae
btw its me or this week i get random interrupts more than ever , wondering wth is going on , that im casting w/o moving and got interrupted :S , usually happens on pulls where i need to gather with others move to the spot and then get interrupted after being there and started casting.... , sometimes work perfect others ughhhhhhh so frustrating..... -
08-28-2015, 08:54 PMKatchooOr they could just rename it. I HIGHLY doubt that when they create a skill they base the effects around the name and not the other way around :P (BTW i agree with everything else you said i'm just being pedantic )Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyRoyale
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08-28-2015, 09:42 PMxyaieI read this, still typed a response to gaignen, then deleted it. nothing good can come from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarkamite
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08-28-2015, 10:41 PMRiceisNiceIt's not so much the cast time removal for me. I'm fine with that. It's that on MCH, I can properly play with reactive procs. If I ever overshoot a slug shot proc with anotehr split shot, I can be assured in saying that it's completely my fault because I didn't catch it in time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Linadae
I can't say that when it comes to bard with straighter shot, because the proc itself doesn't even show up or register as a buff until a split second after your weapon skill ends. If you tried to do SS after heavy shot and it gave a proc, you'd still end up hard casting SS without the 100% crit. Then you have bloodletter resets that needs to be used up or it's wasted dps if you overlap the resets (esp if you're multidotting, which is very well possible in nearly all of the alexander encounters) -
08-28-2015, 11:20 PMyamochanyeah the cast times are ok on MCH cause he can deal with them in many ways. for BRD not so much since the whole class functions different. it wasnt build for cast times and it never will be unless SE changes quite some stuff. i would not mind them as well if they would just function alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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08-28-2015, 11:22 PMAiseliaOr they could leave it as it is since it's already inaccurate. It's called Wanderer's when it is the only song to prevent us from wandering, and a minuet is a dance for two people and it's the only song that only has an effect on the bard alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katchoo
Also of note, using the wording from Wikipedia, "The name is also given to a musical composition written in the same time and rhythm, though when not accompanying an actual dance the pace was quicker." Since the animation only shows a song being played and not a dance, the pace could be quicker.
So I guess technically the effect should be that if we're standing still (no dance), we should be attacking faster than when moving (dance). Or it should also affect one other person somehow, like maybe it works kind of like Cover in that if you link to another person, you and that person get X% increased damage, but if you move too far from each other, the effect fades, whether you just lose the damage bonus or you lose the song.
There's some more tactical gameplay hidden in the latter, though, whether it's better to pop it on a melee but be stuck in melee range for extra damage or pop it on a ranged to be out of melee range but increase the odds of an AOE circle coming near them. Or if you need heavy AOE, don't put it on someone who's mainly single target, run over to the SMN. Or heck, if that tank needs some extra threat in a pinch, toss it on the tank and they're doing more damage for more threat. The possibilities are endless! Except for where they end!
Or if they really want to cement BRD as support, how about a different effect depending on who you're dancing with? Say, tanks take less damage if you link with them, DPS do more damage, and healers do more healing, with a DPS boost to you for linking with them. Say, 30% if they're a melee but you can only shoot in melee range and maybe 20% if you're linked with ranged/healer so you get more benefit for being in the "riskier" position of melee. -
08-29-2015, 09:33 AMGaignenQuote:
Originally Posted by Clarkamite
I never said BRD is BLM. My issue is we went from more mobile than them in a reactive sense to less mobile than BLM or SMN in reaction. It's common sense: 20% chance of a free move (Straighter Shot), or 40%+5% (Firestarter + Thundercloud) plus one guaranteed free move on demand per minute (Swiftcast). I'm not directly comparing the playstyles of the two jobs, I understand that BLM has leylines to worry about, and a much more sensitive rotation. But movement is not about the rotation, it is something everyone has to deal with, so comparing movement options for ranged jobs is not moot, the mobility-in-reaction-to-something-happening options are better on other casters (and of course MCH) than on BRD, fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by xyaie
All other jobs got to be more what they were before. BRD stayed MP/TP batteries and lost their move-king status. -
08-29-2015, 09:22 PMxyaieQuote:
Originally Posted by Gaignen
Its difficult to compare their ability to do emergency movement to ours to begin with. If they are rooted 100% of the time and we are rooted 60% of the time, ANY movement is emergency movement for them, while for us 95% of movements in the game are not, combine that with the fact that in our normal rotation we arent even rooted 60% of the time and i wonder what the whole debate is even about?
It is common sense that 20% < 40%. cool, but thats very similar to the above, in a vaccume yes that is better. Not lets add in the fact that we refresh our DoTs every 18s (lets pretend no skill speed and say 17.5s), straight shot every 20s, so 1/7 globals on iron jaws, 1/8 globals on straight(er) shot, so 72% of our globals have a 20% chance of proccing a movement, that is 14.5% (its early, correct me if my math is wrong)
a black mage rotation is roughly (after the opener): F4 F4 F1 F4 F4 B3 B4 T F3
So 11% of their rotation has a 40% chance to proc movement leaving them with a 4% chance. every 3s has a 10% chance to proc thundercloud, which is roughly 1 proc every 30s = roughly 1/12 globals = 8.3%. there is a higher chance we will have a straighter shot proc than BOTH their firestarter and thunder cloud. now, we also cant simply forget about the fact that using a fire starter proc during 44% of their rotation would be devastating.
now, for whatever reason the bard has to move for a full global, as does the black mage, so ignoring the fact that we have over a second to move between every global (as you can move before the casting bar finishes and it will still cast) giving us enough time to dodge most mechanics, and ignoring the fact that we have a higher chance of "proccing" movement (swfit cast will push them over us in movement globals per minute if youre willing to completely break your rotation and use them on cooldown), as well as ignoring our ability to turn off WM without losing much DPS as long as we dont have to iron jaws.. So simply everything else is on CD/not procced and you HAVE to move for a global.
We can feint. there is a 72% chance it is replacing a heavy shot. that is 202 potency (counting WM and our traits) as opposed to 253, so a 51 potency loss. that sucks
for a black mage there is a 44% chance of it replacing a fire 4, if it replaces the fire 1 you lose your stacks and are screwed, if you have to replace your bliz 3 and it pushes you below the mana for bliz 3 youre basically screwed, if it replaces the bliz 4 you MAY lose enochian, in which case you'd be screwed. the rest wouldnt be as bad and would just be pushed back.
but 44% chance to lose a (modifiers considered) 740 potency nuke and replace it with a 168 (counting the 20% chance for it to do double damage). a loss of 572 potency. if a black mage does that ONCE then its worse than you having to feint 11 times during the fight. why on earth are we comparing the emergency movement ability of these 2?
in ANY situation, bard is still high on the list of mobility. we dont -need- the emergency movement buttons. WM was a big issue when it had a 3s casting time, but without that i dont find myself to be rooted much at all.
I linked this yet? it may have been this thread that i found it in originally: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsBX...el=TakakazuAbe -
08-29-2015, 10:13 PMDuelleWas painful to see someone I know throw away their bard gear after finally getting fed up with what they did to the job. =/Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferiae
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08-29-2015, 10:18 PMEphierAnd they also gained quite a bit of damage as well for the loss of their "move-king" status.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaignen
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08-29-2015, 10:23 PMDuelleThere was no damage gain. They are exactly where they were in ARR relative to the other DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephier
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08-29-2015, 11:00 PMRiceisNicePeople need to stop saying this. Or do people keep forgetting that every other job "gained quite a bit of damage" with their 3.0 abilities that add onto their rotation or short comings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephier
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08-29-2015, 11:54 PMAiseliaOnly in the same way that literally everybody gained quite a bit of damage because they got to 60 and have stats and weapon damage a lot higher than they had before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephier
Thing is, WM's damage can't really be considered a gain because that's what it's all balanced around now. WM-less Bard at 60 is not doing 100% of their damage, just like nobody considers a NIN to be doing 100% of their damage if they don't have their venom on.
NIN damage is balanced around venoms being on. DRG damage is balanced around HT being up as much as possible. MNK damage is balanced around GL. BRD damage is balanced around WM being on. -
08-30-2015, 12:15 AMGaignenOkay, didn't realise that F1 was done so much less often now. I knew it was less, but i have to give you this one. Still, BRD lacks a Swiftcast equivalent.Quote:
Originally Posted by xyaie
Also, that video is ridiculous. If an AoE went down in the middle of any of those casts, you might as well be a turret, because you have to break cast to gtfo. My complaint isn't about moving when you can (that video is basically just a dis to the people who used to move just for the sake of moving, which I'm not a fan of anyway, I hated Flea-bouncing BRDs as much as the next guy), it's about moving when you need to. Bard used to be king of that, now we are not. MCH are better at it and Swiftcast can be used in a pinch to maintain BLM rotation. If I'm trying to IJ w/ 3s DoTs left and an AoE goes down under me: goodbye to 2 globals, 140 tp (resource management) and potency to boot, on top of the plain old potency lost from missing the global. -
08-30-2015, 01:12 AMaabeNot really, we're in a patch spot where everyone has different gear but THROUGHOUT 3.05 to now I sit between 50-100 less than melee depending on if there's a DRG or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Exact same as 2.x with my static, but if you're doing 1200 DPS to somebody's 1300 dps, you are closer to them than if they were doing 600 and you're doing 500. -
08-30-2015, 01:42 AMStrejdaTomI couldn't agree more with you sir. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by aabe
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08-30-2015, 02:06 AMxyaiethis is the main hit that bards were given, and black mages and summoners have had all along. If youre 1 second into a heavy shot and you HAVE to move, you interrupt your cast (a large portion of the time you an wait half a second then move and still get your ability off). Black mages face the same thing except you might be 2.5 seconds into a spell then move and cancel all of it. Swift cast also will not help you in these situations at all as you cant hit swift cast halfway through a spell (surecast should work like this imo!). Ive only finished A1s and 99% of A2s, but of those two its maybe once a raid night when i actually cancel an ability to move. A3 may have much worse things in store.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaignen
honestly, imo, bards had it FAR too easy in 2.0, having the range of a caster and the mobility of a melee. While i feel it was warrented to make them play the same game as everyone else, i'd much rather see a sniper training from WOW style mechanic. my #1 biggest issue with WM/GB is that they cancel auto attack making them not much of a damage boost at all. I'd rather see a very solid DPS boost committing to black maging it up, then take it off to move around freely at the cost of the damage. -
08-30-2015, 03:14 AMaabeAbsolutely. I said it before and I'll say it again, but the only mechanics I can see screwing a bard over is something like redfire if the bard has to do it and even then, most groups had the healers do it when bard was the "move-king" because of how it limits DPS. At this point as a caster healers can still do a lot of movement mechanics and let the BRD keep up their DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by xyaie
A3 isn't that bad, the worst thing in that entire turn is sluice+protean where you are moving for 2 gcds, everything else is the same 1-gcd movement (toggling WM for the AA is the same or better than WM here depending where you're at with EA CD/cooldowns etc.) and most of that stuff the AoE takes so long to go off that you can finish your cast and move.
I'm on A4 and I can say it's pretty bad in terms of movement and it's STILL not a problem at all, because none of it has to be done on-the-fly -
08-30-2015, 05:51 AMRiceisNiceThe melee I play with are usually around 1.4k-1.5k on non-progression fights compared to my mid 1.2ksQuote:
Originally Posted by aabe
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08-30-2015, 05:56 AMKumori_KumoNot to disagree, but aren't dragoons doing like 1500?Quote:
Originally Posted by aabe