My original post was about what needs to happen to fix the healing role. The only part of your response I was referencing was where you specified that 'it doesn't make sense for healers to have as high damage output as tanks because they mainly just have 1 DPS action' which completely disregards the point I had made in the same post that the healers would need more DPS actions. I'm not talking about the rest of what you're saying. You can't criticize one bullet point of a proposal while completely disregarding another bullet point that quite literally answers the criticism of the first point. And, I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in what you think is or isn't possible in the future. It's entirely irrelevant to what I was talking about and is overall a useless argument anyway because unless you're a time traveler, you will never know what changes will occur in future expansions.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
I'm not saying anything will or won't happen, but expansions are periods of great change in a game like this. It has happened with literally every other expansion before EW--things changed a lot. This is the only time where we've basically changed nothing from one expansion to the next, and everyone seems to think it's written on the rosetta stone itself that that means no change will ever happen again. I have no idea what changes will occur in the future. I'm not making an argument for any of that. I'm just saying what medicine this game needs to cure the healer problem. Whether or not the design team is willing to take that medicine doesn't change the fact that the medicine is needed.
Healer role design change?
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07-05-2023, 08:09 AMty_taurus
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07-05-2023, 01:46 PMForsakenRoeRemember, the idea isn't 'revert to 4.0 wholesale', it's 'take inspiration from design of 4.0 re: rotations, while keeping the improvements on QOL/useability that 5/6.0 brought, ie Lilies, Divination being a predictable raidbuff (better for balancing/less damage swing), etc'. Going back to 4.0 wholesale would mean, for example, removing Art of War (to mirror Miasma 2) and Energy Drain, and nobody wants to have that happen again. I'm going to assume SE would leave AST as the current 'Diurnal only' now that we have SGE, even if I got my way and had 4.0 style design come back for the 'HW three'. As such, to address each of the things that made SCH/AST OP and WHM 'not good and also very bad in SB':Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
Mit: Either add Protect as a 60s CD that mirrors CU on AST (upgrading to PI at later levels to save hotbar space), or drop Temperance to a 1min CD, shortening it's duration a little (to 15s) if needed.
Free burst healing/regens: Lilies being reworked addresses this somewhat. AST gets an average of 600p of healing every 20s via rotating it's current OGCDs (CO/CU/Star). WHM gets 400 per 20s, with it going to 600 with PI. We have to remember, SB's version of PI was not good either, and has since been made more useable. It also has Asylum for 900p total. Lilybell is the big thing that can be looked at IMO. A 3min CD that gives 1000p for instant detonation, up to 2000p if all 5 stacks are popped 'properly' as it were. But it's direct competitor is Macrocosmos, capable of deleting certain mechanics (though I imagine they're going to be very wary of how they design hp-to-1 style mechs going forward because of it). I think if they change Lilybell to be a 120s CD with 4 stacks, or a 90s with 3 stacks (and delete the penalty for early detonation), the skill would feel so much better to use. Macro remains with the niche of 'it can delete mechanics sometimes' and Lilybell gains a niche of 'it's up twice as often'. You'd be able to rotate, every 45s, between Asylum and a 3stack Lilybell, for 2100 potency per 90s before even touching Lilies. Lilybell would also have a seperate 'niche' of sorts, of the versatility of choosing how to do it's healing. You can pop it upfront for burst, you can leave it to get even distribution of pulses (ie for a DOT). Macro doesn't have that, you choose when it gives you the burst of healing, but you can't split that burst up into smaller amounts, meaning less agency in the healing it provides
Party damage buffs: WHM got a solid showing in SHB when it's personal damage was so strong that it was not only outstripping party buffs, but also some of the tanks, this is again a numbers thing. I don't think giving WHM a raidbuff changes anything in either direction. SAM exists fine and has no raidbuff, yeh it drops from it's top spot as everyone gets gear sometimes, and other times not. BLM is the same, often hanging around in the top 3 without having a raidbuff. Just requires SE to be good at tuning numbers which.. yeh, could be an issue I guess. Definitely not possible with 4.0 AST (as it was then), but with something like what I've put in that other thread (ST cards with roughly equal contribution to damage, Divination as the raidwide buff, thereby making it's damage output 'predictable' from a balance perspective), it should be possible to balance WHM against it a lot easier compared to the insanely swing-y damage of a 4.0 AST
AOE Esuna: Doesn't exist anymore, but if it were to come back I'd imagine it'd be on WHM if anyone (as a lily spender), since SCH has Expedient now as a 'cool weird utility thing'. If AOE Esuna came back on SCH, I dunno what I'd do for WHM. The first thing that comes to mind is a Raise skill that has a long CD (like, 5+ min), but raises the target with no weakness (or if they have weakness, doesn't turn it into brink of death). People would complain that 'my utility only good for prog' but I could say the same about something like Neutral Sect, you don't actually 'want' to use it because it only works on GCD heals
MP refresh: Addressed with Thin Air and the damage-neutral-Misery change, we now save 1600MP per min due to prep/firing a Misery. Every time they reduce Assize's CD it helps a little too. SB WHM's MP economy was not great, and HW was even worse, but now it's been helped a lot. If needs be, we can have a trait added somewhere that says that Thin Air affects the next 3 spells instead of one. If they added my ideas we'd be getting +500 each time we casted the big AOE heal I made too (the one that grants you a Quake/Tornado/Flood cast) but hey, a quick-and-dirty fix can be to just increase Assize's restore amount
Excellent personal damage: Personal-damage wise WHM is on the right track in relation to AST and SCH, its higher than them (in personal damage) which, since it has no raidbuff, is where it should be. But this is once again a case of 'can SE balance a non-raidbuff class versus one that has raidbuffs', and it's doubly precarious because AST is so heavy into raidbuffing in terms of it's identity, it's like comparing DNC and MCH. SHB shows they're capable, whether intentional or by fluke, of making WHM be competitive even without having it's own raidbuff
If you were to ask me 'do you believe its possible to have SB style design, and for the healers to be well balanced against each other?' I'd say 'yes it is absolutely possible'. If you asked 'do you believe it's possible for SE to achieve this', I'd hesitate before answering, and I'm not sure which way I'd answer it. I want to believe that if they put their mind to it and decided 'this is the way we are going with healers', they'd get the numbers right. The problem is that they don't want to go that way designwise, else they'd never have done the SHB changes in the first place
6.2k characters i done did a Ren -
07-05-2023, 02:05 PMty_taurusIn general, I've started to develop the preference of really cutting total actions down in favor of making the actions that stay more frequent. For example, I really like Haima and Panhaima. I think they're interesting, but I'd rather see them become 60 second cooldowns instead, and I'd be happy to remove tools like some or all of the -choles in order to justify that much accessibility. So I'd much rather see something like Temperance drop to 60 seconds or less even if that means reducing the effects somewhat. Adding charges also helps. For example, why does Scholar need both Indomitability and Fey Blessing? Why does it need Whispering Dawn and Sacred Soil and Fey Illumination?Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
I want to see each kit curated down to the most interesting unique tools, and use that extra space to add ways to interact with those tools more. For example, why not cut Asylum and Plenary Indulgence completely and make Liturgy a permanent object you place. Every time you hit Liturgy with an AoE heal, you can activate it to trigger an OGCD AoE heal, and it can store up to 5 charges this way? One action releases all charges at once for HP burst recovery, another grants you a buff that automatically consumes a single charge to heal a smaller amount when you take damage (mimicking the current Liturgy effect), and maybe you have a third action--a DPS spell that causes all charges to hit enemies with a damage down effect for added mitigation, or something o that effect? This could also resolve the Assize problem. Instead of Assize healing additionally, it adds a charge to your Liturgy. Maybe you can spend your charges to either heal, or -
07-05-2023, 02:25 PMForsakenRoeSoil's for mit, idk why they added the regen in SHB. I thought it was dumb at the time too. For Indom/Blessing, I've said ages ago that I'd probably remove Blessing, and rework Deploy so that the Fairy does a copy of the skill you use, from a list. Indom would make the fairy do Fey Indom (functionally equivalent to Blessing atm), Deploy Adlo would be a double ST shield on one target for super mit on a tankbuster, Deploy Succor would be current Adlo-Deploy, bigger partywide shielding, and Deploy Excog would be for 'I really don't want this tank to get instaslapped by an auto and die after this TB' I guessQuote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
As for a merged Illum/WDawn, I think you are describing Physis2, but jokes aside, yeh I'm not a massive fan of Fey Illumination's existence either, I'd rather have lost it in the prune than Rouse for example -
07-05-2023, 02:34 PMAravellThis system would actually be very interesting on SGE. Imagine if:Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
- Dosis is a straight heal on Kardia target
- Eukrasian Dosis is a regen on Kardia target
- Dyskrasia pulses an AoE heal out from Kardia target
- Phlegma places a shield on Kardia target
- Pneuma pulses an AoE shield out from Kardia target -
07-05-2023, 02:36 PMty_taurusI'd rather see Whispering Dawn upgrade into Fey Blessing, and/or have that replace Indomitability as your OGCD AoE heal. I also don't see the point in having both Physis II and Kerachole. I get that Physis II has the healing increased effect, but I'd rather rework how you access that rather than have two slightly different OGCD regens. And that's kinda my point with Soil/WD/Illumination... they all bleed together.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
I'd want more choice involved with Kardia. That kind of change just makes the regens and barriers consequences of doing your rotation. I've actually started thinking more along the lines of something like:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
Dosis - Deals 330 Potency. No MP Cost. No Kardia Effect
New Spell - Deals 330 Potency. 800 MP Cost. Heals your Kardia target with a potency of 250.
In the past, my concepts of a Sage rework included other similar concepts. Namely Polydipsia which replaces Soteria: a DPS spell that applies 4 stacks of Soteria to your Kardia target, doubling the Kardia effects granted by other spells, or Eukrasian Polydipsia which instead grants 2 stacks of Therapeia to your Kardia target which blasts the Kardia effects of other spells to all allies nearby them.
Basically, your DPS rotation is about making choices with your Kardia healing, and using Dosis when you don't need to heal. -
07-09-2023, 01:27 PMRenathrasKind of agree with this (whole paragraph). I was thinking earlier this evening how much I like Emergency Tactics.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
...no, wait, hear me out, please.
What I like about it is how FREQUENT it is. It's a modifier ability, which means it allows other abilities (Succor and Adlo) to pull double duty, like Eukrasia. Unlike Eukrasia, though, it's limited by a CD. But it's not a really heavily punishing one. I think it was 20 or 30 seconds originally, but it's 15 now. I was thinking how I like Plenary, but it's only once per minute, which tends to mean I think of other things to use first. The CD is in that weird place where it's JUST long enough to be out of mind, but not long enough to be a major or clutch ability.
Contrast, also, PvP abilities. Other than LBs themselves, abilities with CDs are usually either 15 sec or 20 sec CDs, meaning they're up all the time. Short CDs like that result in buttons that feel somewhat impactful, because they can't be spammed, but still accessible and go-to since they're still frequently available.
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As for the SGE discussion:
My ideal for SGE at this point - I'd never touch it, but I know some people really want this - would be to remove (almost) all of its healing. Give it a DPS rotation on par with SMN's/RDM's (without the melee bit) and boost its Kardia to be serious healing. Give it a few oGCDs for mitigation (Kerachole, for example), and some emergency heal for when Kardia isn't cutting it (Durochole, for example), and that's it. Its main use oGCDs would be things like boosting Kardia with Soteria, a Synastry/Beacon of Light second short duration Kardia, and an AOE Kardia. Performing its DPS rotation correctly combined with proper Kardia targeting/hot-swapping/use of the extra Kardia oGCDs would be what leads to proper healing performance.
Right now, SGE can debateably outheal a pure Healer depending on how you look at it and consider eHP, and that aside, given the lowish healing requirements in this game, SGE can do ample overhealing. Its oGCD heals are ridiculously powerful and accessible. It has better Regen healing than WHM (or even AST, I think), and can access them on the oGCD, unlike WHM's Regen and Medica 2, which are DPS losses to use. Asylum on a 90 sec CD is WHM's only oGCD regen, while SGE has two (four if you count Panhamia/Hamia, though those are more akin to Lilybell), Physis with a 60 sec CD and Kerochole with a 30 sec (which unlike SCH, doesn't compete with Energy Drain so can be used freely). And right now, it doesn't have the "heals by doing damage" feel. Kardia feels like (and functionally is) Eos' Embrace while SGE's bulk healing is done with its oGCDs. -
07-09-2023, 02:09 PMSemirhageWHM is a tricky creature. There's the "here's what they could do with it" angle, and the "here's what Square Enix has been really stubborn about" aspect too. WHM has several design....directions? "Identities"? Aspects which seem to be part of Square's design document on the job which they haven't outright stated but can be inferred from precedent? Whatever you want to call them, they s u c k. WHM is like a healer case study in how you design a job that hates FFXIV's combat system, much like BLM is for caster DPS. It's a job that you'd think maybe works if you squint at it, and then you introduce it to....*points at FFXIV*.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
What's this, slightly more potent free heals on twice the cooldown (Tetra vs Essential Dignity)? How terrible! FFXIV's combat system rewards shorter cooldowns much more than it does long ones. Slow-cast spells that have slightly more potency? Hell with that, modern fight design wants you to zip around the arena every other GCD like an AST with Lightspeed can. Somewhat stronger GCD heals? FFXIV wants you dealing damage, and the other healers are set up much more comfortably to heal and deal damage simultaneously, while the lilies are a bandaid on top of stopping and swapping between them. Asylum's trait gives you Yet More Healing? Too bad for you; FFXIV MUCH more frequently likes it when you handle damage with a snappy cooldown while the boss sits around casting/not hitting anyone and don't spend precious time dumping a bunch of useless overhealing. WHM is designed to shine in a completely different game from this one. FFXIV's combat loves short cooldowns (the first thing any WHM cooldown sacrifices for something stupid that the game *doesn't* reward like slightly more potency), mobility (lol Expedient, Lightspeed, Icarus next to....overhealing lilies), buff-stacking (lol my only buff requires me to stand still).
The reason the caster DPS have so many instant casts is because they would be unplayable without them. I've poked around the subject in the DPS subforum a few times. FFXIV increasingly isn't designed for the RPG job fantasy of planting your butt in one spot, maybe scooting on occasion, and getting your fighters to handle wrestling in a web-grease-spike pit on fire. The whole game wants you to play like an action combat sword-swinger: dodge rolling and darting around and getting your whole arena length 100 meter dash cardio going. One of the reasons I'd be down for a full (GOOD, monkey's paw. GOOD rework) rework of WHM is because its whole design philosophy is just so anti-FFXIV. Playing WHM anywhere outside dungeon Holy spam feels like rolling an acrobatics character in a game that's set in a flat plain with no trees. -
07-09-2023, 02:28 PMShurrikhanI'm really hoping that analog isn't relevant to your wider point, since, if anything, the other casters would be more interesting if they didn't spend so much of their reiterations apologizing themselves right out of role identity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
And, if WHM were putting out a form of throughput that wasn't so quickly capped / made redundant... that'd honestly be fine. The core issue is literally just that (A) there's no non-burst and non-scripted healing to be done anyways and (B) despite its "big/pure heals" identity... it's typically had weaker or merely competitive heals in practice.
That said, on all other counts...
...Agreed.Quote:
WHM has several design....directions? "Identities"? ... Whatever you want to call them, they s u c k.
And yet... BLM really does still do fine. Top rDPS for every fight. Top aDPS on many. Yes, modern fights are more demanding of mobility than before, but... cast times are no more a fundamental issue than positionals or any other form of contextual complexity.Quote:
The reason the caster DPS have so many instant casts is because they would be unplayable without them.
Like... I agree with you that WHM deserves a rehaul, but... I don't think the 'issue' you're focused on is nearly as great as you make out here. It's instead a simple matter of parity, where other jobs simply have more.
And even if, say, the devs ended up fixed on the idea of WHM being a high cure-ppgcd healer... as long as they made up for that with offensive potency and compensatory features so that any healer pair with them had roughly the same offensive ppm in practice (WHM probably "chadding" over AST or SCH, but w/e)... that'd be fine.
For me, my main issue is that WHM's only identity is Generic Healer™ and that it so often just hasn't been balanced against the other jobs. But so long as fights are consistently demanding of mobility, that doesn't mean that you need to give every job the same amount of mobility, since you can just compensate for that lack of mobility in other ways. Similarly, even if more of a given healer's curative ppm would be GCD-based, as long as its total curative ppm and offensive ppm would be balanced in practice... it truly does not matter; you can quite simply raise potency in compensation, and the only "problem" would be that the "GCD healer" would be more rewarded than most for doing zero healing over raid buffs and for healing when there's nothing to attack. -
07-09-2023, 03:00 PMSemirhageSort of? It's hard to have focused discussions on problems with class design because FFXIV has so many of them at the moment. That bit right there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Is what I mean about one of the major issues with casters in FFXIV. They're all apologizing for casting. FFXIV isn't a game designed for "casters" anymore. It's designed (well, not "for", since it lacks a lot of the features that action combat aficionados also enjoy, but moving in that direction nonetheless) like they want it to no longer be a traditional RPG, like they want it to be a dodge-rolly two-button action combat game, and what we're left with is this unholy abomination that's like the worst elements from both: Depthless kits designed as if you need to quickly react instead of using your abilities in a thoughtful order, but also bosses that don't force the kind of reaction time you need in an action game.Quote:
the other casters would be more interesting if they didn't spend so much of their reiterations apologizing themselves right out of role identity
Casters in FFXIV *all* apologize for being casters. Triplecast, swiftcast, 1.5 second nukes, instant free spells all over the place.
WHM is (maybe not so much anymore, with the caster apologies added to it) the most "oldschool immobile caster" of the healers, which was a segue into- WHM's design considerations are basically all a game of what 'features' would one give a class that the game consistently gives no shits about, while heaping things the game rewards on its competition.
Two different points, with a tenuous bridge between topics. BLM does great damage for sure! But the game still wants you moving all over the place like a fighter, so we all keep getting anti-caster changes to our kits to bend them to fit modern gym class fight design, which makes you feel like less of a...well, caster. -
07-09-2023, 03:11 PMForsakenRoeQuote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
Reading the word 'mobility' so many times has made me think that 'maybe I screwed up', check it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Current WHM rotation, we have 18 GCDs per minute where we have 'little to no mobility' because 1.5s cast time/2.5s recast, only able to slidecast and use 1s of free space to move a little bit at a time.
Now look at this second graph, of what I pitched all that time ago (has it been a year yet)
Is this too much mobility? When I first made these graphs to compare '1min snapshot of rotation' I was mainly focused on 'try to lower number of boring Glare spam-casts, and replace with something more interesting'. I feel like, looking back at this graph again with a focus on 'how much mobility does this provide', I've gone and accidentally SMN'd the class out of most of it's cast times, as Glare (and it's upgrade Quake) are the only things on here with a cast time in my pitch, everything else is instantcasts. So 8 actual cast times per minute (SMN has 4 and people hate it for this reason). On the plus side, nobody gets to complain about 'oh no I can't do damage because the fight mechanics don't give me time to stand still', I guess
Maybe Banish needs a cast time too -
07-09-2023, 03:26 PMShurrikhanRight, but the same applies to healers' MP management (modest though it was), melee's positional and uptime management, tank's risk-reward and positional management, etc. Is an actual prevalence of casting on... Casters... really yet another thing we want to axe from the game, in favor of making them increasingly into simply (fully mobile) Mana-shooting Rangers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
I ask because if we continually roll with the fight design only by trying to mitigate those designs' difficulty, rather than just fairly rewarding success within those designs... that's what we'll get: instant-casts-only Bards, instant-casts-only SMNs, instant-casts-only BLMs (alongside effectively infinite ranged melees, and tanks who have next to no rewards for positioning mobs/bosses correctly, etc., etc.).
If anything, I'd probably put the cast times on the big-trucking-hits, minus Misery? So, to me, at the very least, Quake, Flood, Tornado absolutely should have cast times (possibly a full GCD's), though I'd then want to see some timing-flexibility on them (if that wasn't in the mockup; can't easily go and check right now from on my phone).Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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07-09-2023, 03:32 PMty_taurusI don't see anything wrong with liking Emergency Tactics. In concept, I think it's great also. It's just that, now more than ever, it's heavily power-crept. Ironically, it was already seeing power creep in HW when it was added because Indom was also added and is a considerably stronger healing tool that also has a short cooldown. ET would've really shined during ARR though. And that leads me to a different point... We keep getting new healing cooldowns each expansion, but healing requirements don't increase to compensate for this added healing, so what ends up happening is old healing actions start getting power-crept out, and you end up with "dead" buttons that aren't being used anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
The think to keep in mind about PVP though is that PVP gameplay is a different experience. In PVP, combat is experienced in brief skirmishes that you constantly jump in and out of, with the fights themselves being unpredictable. Meanwhile, the standard PVE experience is about enduring long, drawn-out encounters with a learnable pattern. So it makes sense why PVP cooldowns are that much shorter. Now don't get me wrong, as I said above, I think we could trim a lot of fat by taking the most interesting healing cooldowns and making those more often accessible while cutting the less interesting ones, but I think it's an important distinction to acknowledge when talking about job design in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I have something similar on the suggestions megathread (page 14 if you're curious) Though I would still have at least your standard two direct heals just so that you can heal without a target. Diagnosis and Prognosis do have uses during phase changes or boss transitions. There's some elements from other sage concepts I've shared before, but it's a more streamlined. It was inspired from thoughts I'd had from the earlier conversation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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07-09-2023, 03:41 PMRenathras
I agree with Semi on this one.
Including BLM.
BLM works in FFXIV today because of shoehorning, not because its design is perfectly suited to this game. The "challenge" and "brilliant design" of BLM that is so praised by the hardcore community is... <checks notes> ...memorizing the safe spots in fights so you can sit still for precious seconds and memorizing when there aren't any for a bit so you have to save your big movement CDs for then. In other words, figuring out how to overcome BLM objectively NOT being suited to the game's current combat design that is so focused on motion and "the dance". And the last several expansions have all been focused on giving BLM more mobility. BLM is more mobile than RDM in current FFXIV entirely due to that. It's been given so much on-demand mobility because its basic kit and rotational design doesn't work with FFXIV encounter designs.
In a similar way, WHM now is almost entirely dependent on Lilies to be functional in current content.
Imagine, for a moment, current WHM design without Lilies. So no Solace, Rapture, nor Misery.
It wouldn't be functional. Your only instant cast heals would be Tetra (60 sec), Assize (45), Bene (3 min), Lilibell (if triggered; 3 min), with Regen (?) and Asylum (90 sec) for cases where healing wasn't needed right away, but even there, Asylum has that weird "increases healing" effect, which is in opposition to the concept of "healing isn't needed right away". PoM, Plenary, Temperance, Benison, and Aquaveil aren't heals per se, and only Benison is indirectly one via being a barrier.
Without Lilies, you'd actually NEED to cast Cure 2, Medica/Cure 3, and Medica 2s, none of which can be cast on the move, which would make encounters like BarbiEx extremely challenging for a WHM. Moreover, casing Dia or Regen would be the only GCD options for long movement requirements, like having to cross from one side of an arena to the other.
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The Job is designed just fine...it just doesn't fit FFXIV's current encounter design. It was designed for another game - ARR.
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EDIT:
Valid. This was the thing that annoyed me about SGE in PvP and when I first tried it (first Healer after the rework), I was legitimately pissed off because I thought ALL Healers in PvP were going to play like that. Thank god that wasn't the case. But the thing is, I recognize some people...like...that. Hence my saying they'd need to keep something like Durochole/Ixochole specifically for those cases. Though I suppose Prognosis/Diagnosis are fine in that sense. "Cure 1 and Raise" are apparently standards across FFXIV Healer design.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
I think the argument here is more "encounter design is a problem". At least, that's my argument. Semi may be going for the "Jobs need redesign" angle instead. But I think it's valid to point out, at the least, there's a disconnect between Healer Job design and FFXIV combat encounter design. I think we can all agree on that, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Whether one thinks the solution is to change the encounter design combat model, the Job designs/kits, or both, is where we may diverge, but I feel we can all agree that the two are not on the same page.
(Also, I know I'm relatively alone in this - on these forums, not as much in the game - but I happen to like SMN; because it's actually designed to work with the current encounter designs, it's actually enjoyable to play in them and doesn't feel clunky and disjointed and like it was designed for a different game. I'm not saying this to say all Jobs should be like SMN. I'm saying this to say that I do enjoy it and that maybe encounter design really really really does need to be changed before every Job becomes like it...) -
07-09-2023, 03:53 PMShurrikhanAnd previously melee would have to figure out how to slightly alter their rotation or pick GCD tiers so that they could complete a combo just before downtime so they could use their ranged skills without breaking combo, would need to know the exact timing of AoEs (which don't always go off at the end of casts, nor a consistent amount of time prior, etc.) so they can better greed, etc., etc. And if one didn't want to learn a fight positionally as DPS... Rangers were right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Again... do we really need to strip the melee-ranged-based complexities from Melee, the casting-based complexities from Casters, etc.?
Is it actually better to just roll over and strip it all away... rather than simply to reward it commensurately (as, yes, BLM does with its highest rDPS in the game)?
Imagine, for a moment, SCH without Aetherflow. It wouldn't make the cut, either. And why would it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Imagine, for a moment, any other healer with 2400 (or 1200n) less mobile curative ppm and 930 less offensive ppm.
None of them would survive that. I'm not sure why we're treating this as something WHM-specific.
Hell, the Lily system provides more mobility than its analogs on other healers.* It doesn't need an outright Lightspeed or the like. Yes, that makes Lilies a bit more important to WHM than AF or AG to SCH and SGE, respectively, but... how is that a problem? We wouldn't pretend either of those jobs would be complete without their core systems, so why pretend WHM is uniquely a core system away from failure.
*That's probably why attaching, say, a 50% cast time reduction to PoM would actually be excessive (even if attaching a 2.5s cast time reduction to Thin Air would probably be fine and arguably deserved). -
07-09-2023, 03:58 PMForsakenRoeET would still have a place, I think, if it weren't just 'the next ONE spell has it's shield converted into raw healing'. Dusty's Black/White Grimoires idea made the most sense to me, have ET's effect as one of the stances you can be in, 'shield mode heals' be the opposite stance. I'd even add more to that and make it so that if you're in the 'shielding' Grimoire mode, your pure heal tools ie Indom are converted to do shielding, at a lower effectiveness (ie, 200p shield vs 400p pure healing), to incentivize... actually shielding, on a shield-focused healer, crazy I knowQuote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
I don't necessarily 'hate' ET, I just put it in the same category as Pepsis: it's there, it exists, it's learned at level 58, it could be so much more than it is
Yeh I left those hard hits as 'the same cast time as their lower counterparts', so Quake was 1.5s, the other two instantcast. I think having them change to have a different cast time from their base form is not ideal in terms of fluidity (ie, you need to heal on the move cos mechanic, you press the heal, empower spells, now you can't cast that Banish because it's suddenly got a cast time), so maybe just having Banish/Flood be a 2.0s cast (slightly longer than Glare, but it does hit harder) might be enough, that'd put the count up to 13/24 GCDs having cast times, so just over half. Or maybe having Banish have a cast time, but the upgraded forms all being instantcast, things 'empowering and gaining instantcast property' is a lot less wonky for gameplay than 'thing empowers and suddenly gains a cast time you're forced to respect'Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I'll just leave it as is, with the excuse of 'hey, if only 8/24, literally one third, of the GCDs ask the player to stand still, that makes the design super-casual-friendly, which means it fits way better with what SE's looking for'. I don't exactly associate 'healer role' with 'the class is glued to the floor', since in 'the other game' it's mostly only Priest and Shaman that get glued to the floor, iirc. If we needed a class in this game that is the token 'I cannot move even one pixel' healer class, I'd nominate it be SGE, because it has Icarus, in a similar fashion to BLM's refusal to move, and it having Aetherial Manipulation. Also if it's damage contributed to it's healing in a more robust design than 'teehee 170p on one guy', it'd stand to reason that it would want to stand still and deal damage constantly with as few interruptions as possible -
07-09-2023, 04:11 PMShurrikhanPersonally, I'd kinda like to see something similar-ish to the SMN route, wherein each gives a chain of utility-including available actions that one can use or just skip past.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
For instance, let's say you've got Quake as a long cast, Flood as a charge-up (hold cast for up to 1 GCD's time), and Tornado as a channel that can be held for up to 1 GCD (operating in 20% of GCD ticks).
Quake would apply Resonance, causing your ST attacks to deal 100 potency also to all other enemies nearby.
Flood would change your heals from casts to charge-ups, dealing their full potency even if the cast is cancelled early by movement but dealing 200 more potency if cast at their normal times.
Tornado would grant Vortex for a duration based on channel time, causing your DoT to be usable over direct damage (ST filler) for a bit.
From there, Banish would probably be a 1.5s cast time.
Something like that.
(I don't remember what "BotE" was.) -
07-09-2023, 04:18 PMRenathrasAgain, not my argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
My position is that encounter design has changed since ARR/HW/even SB, and not for the better, and that encounter design needs to shift back. FFXIV is not an ARPG, it needs to stop having fights designed as if it were one.
What are you talking about? SCH current meta is devoting as many AF as possible to pathetic 100 potency Energy Drains. Without AF, SCH would still work just fine. It still has an abundance of healing tools that can clear every encounter in the game right now. Again, the current design meta for SCH is "use no AF on heals". The only question would be if its slightly lower potency would make it unable to deal enough damage to clear content...and the answer would be yes, since ED is a pretty pathetic amount of increased potency on the whole that only makes the difference in cases of massive DPS player messups that bring Enrage that close to the wire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
That's oddly specific and not at all comparable to "remove this one set of mechanics from the Job and watch it be entirely non-viable".Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
As noted: Because it is WHM specific. WHM is a Job that seems designed for a different game, because it was. So was SCH, but it was originally designed as a more mobile support healer with oGCD focus to aid the main healer (WHM) while chiefly focusing on dealing damage. As this is more or less what FFXIV's combat system has become, SCH slots into it pretty well other than a little jank related to pet AI and snapshotting stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
FFXIV encounter design in general doesn't match the Healer design, but in the case of the other Healers, this is muted because they don't have as much raw healing (that becomes even more useless overhealing), they have more mitigation and mobility (what FFXIV encounters actually care about now), and their kits are focused on oGCD healing to augment fairly mobile damage dealing. They also aren't perfect with FFXIV's encounter design, but WHM is the outlier and the biggest sore showing the disconnect between the two. -
07-09-2023, 04:31 PMShurrikhanBut that's what you're asking for there. You're asking for the removal of 3 uses per minute of 800 ST or 400 AoE free cure potency per minute. That'd be huge... on anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Yes, that much happens to be stored in one mechanic on WHM, but strip Fairy skills from SCH, Kardia from SGE, etc., and... no shit, it's going to be a lot. Because they're supposed to be. It's why their core elements.
Sorry, yes, fairy skills would be the more apt comparison for healing output.Quote:
What are you talking about? SCH current meta is devoting as many AF as possible to pathetic 100 potency Energy Drains. Without AF, SCH would still work just fine. It still has an abundance of healing tools that can clear every encounter in the game right now. Again, the current design meta for SCH is "use no AF on heals".
Regardless, though, without that extra 300 potency per minute, it wouldn't likely be hard meta. And it's only even able to waste the healing potential of all its AF, anyways, because healing requirements in general are so low. That is the core issue.
So we've got a litmus test healer that tells us the modern condition has gone basic-bitch; shouldn't we be addressing the condition, then, rather than just going straight to homogenizing that healer / ignoring whatever that test tells us? The more we roll over with/to the problem, the less we can contest it in the future. -
07-10-2023, 07:10 AMRenathrasNo, I'm not asking for that. I'd hate that. I'm pointing out that Lilies are a crutch that is the only way WHM is currently viable, much like Triplecast and SEVERAL instant casts like Xenoglossy and Thundercloud are for BLM. Again, remove SCH's Aetherflow and you've removed Incom, Soil, Excog/Lustrate (which SCH players frequently ignore to cast ED anyway), but they still have ample healing somehow because their other non-"on CD" use healing is more than adequate for most encounters. If a SCH has to move, even ignoring AF, they have Blessing, Dawn, Embrace casts, Aetherpact, Seraph/Consolation x2, and the Embrace casts are happening all the time passively. SGE is in a similar boat, having Panhaima/Haima, Holos, and Physis on a really short CD, as well as constant Kardia healing going out with every damage cast AND they can cast Eukrasia Prognosis/Diagnosis while moving AT ANY TIME, and they have pretty good MP economy allowing somewhat liberal use of those tools. They also have frequent access to Icarus allowing them to stand and hardcast something if they wanted to (though they really have no need) and still move in time. AST I don't know as well, but I believe it also has a lot of healing options that can be used while moving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Note that with WHM, it's not JUST healing, either; Lilies also contribute to its damage via Misery (in buff windows, this is a DPS increase on a Healing Job that doesn't have any party buffs, so its "selfish damage" is important), but ALSO is an MP management tool. WHM needs to use four lilies a minute. Recall before 6.1 that it was MP negative over the course of encounters because Misery was a DPS loss so people were using Lilies only if they had to and instead chadding on their co-healer to actually do most of the encounter healing. Making Misery damage neutral was the equivalent of giving WHM 1600 MP per minute.
Lilies are entirely essential for WHM to be viable because of how much is tied up in them. On demand movement, on demand healing (Rapture can be boosted with Plenary), "selfish DPS" essential damage, and MP economy. And unlike Faerie abilities or Kardia, WHM does not get Lilies at level 4. It's not just a "core element" (which is added half-way into the leveling process...), it's an ESSENTIAL element. SGE without Kardia would still work. SCH without Aetherflow would still work. SCH without Eos would probably still work as well, btw. WHM without Lilies would NOT work in FFXIV's current encounter design system.
And again, doesn't matter; SCH without Faerie Skills would still be fully capable of healing in the current game using Aetherflow augmented by its non-Faerie skills like Recitation, Deployment Tactics, Emergency Tactics, Expedient, Protraction, and also still bringing Chain Strategem to the table for the party. SCH is not so dependent on any one thing to be functional since it has a lot of functionality across its skills. It's why I've said before that SCH doesn't really have a lot of fat to trim since all of its skills ARE useful (albeit generally overkill; you can make Spreadlo shields so strong that many attacks in the game won't even scratch the party, and if you add Consolation and mitigation on top of that, it's entirely possible to have "ultimate" attacks land with no party members taking actual damage to their health bars), and was designed around the concept of oGCD healing in the first place. Far moreso than WHM, anyway. And it has carried those traits forward to the modern game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Likewise, SGE without Kardia could heal just fine. Even if you took away its oGCD heals, SGE with Eukrasia has the most mobile GCD heals in the game. Where WHM has 3 Lilies, SGE can keep casting Eukrasia heals until it runs out of MP, which is at the VERY least 11 Eukrasia Prognoses in a row, possibly 12, roughly three times what WHM can do with Rapture. "But WHM has Plenary to boost that!" and SGE has Zoe. It also gets a healing boost from Physis II if it wants (Krasus if we're talking single target), or a damage reduction from Holos or Kerachole.
And recall in 6.0 when Lilies WEREN'T damage neutral how WHM was far and away the worst Healer for raiding. It had to chad on its co-healers or tank its damage, and unlike SCH and especially AST, it didn't boost its party damage to make up for this. Without that 1600 free MP from Lilies per minute, it was in an MP deficit over long fights even if it wasn't having to cast any GCD heals. It was far and away the worst Healer and the most non-Meta pick in 6.0, and it was so bad, it was one of the fastest times SE has actually addressed a Healer issue in the game's history, something that people like Semi and so on can attest is...not a common thing for them to address quickly.
We know how bad WHM would be in current encounter design without Lilies since we got a partial taste of that in 6.0 (that wasn't even the full taste) and it was already bad.
That.
Said:
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I am.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I'm consistently ragging on encounter design in this game. That's what I'm doing right now by pointing out the problem of ARPG movement heavy fights in a tab target, hardcast game like FFXIV. The reason SMN is what it is and RDM and BLM and all the Healers have become so mobile is because the game is now designed such that Jobs without mobility CANNOT execute mechanics in current encounter design.
I do see that as a problem.
My solution is that encounter designs need to be re-designed more akin to the way they were earlier in FFXIV's history when twitch movement at home in a FPS or APRG was not the order of the day for solutions to most of the game's mechanics.
Some others may be arguing for something else, but then you should be addressing them in your post, not me. -
07-10-2023, 08:37 AMShurrikhanAgain, though, we're not losing Lilies, just like SGE isn't losing AG and Kardia nor SCH AF and its Fairy... so... I don't get what the point of this exercise is. Yes... remove half of any jobs' free sustain and it will flounder. ...That is not shocking, nor unique to WHM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Yes, that much value is spread across more systems on other jobs than it is on WHM. But that system does already exist. It's already provided. So I don't see the point in looking at a "What if..." to provide an excuse for further homogeneity.
Likewise, the game has far from switched to "twitch movement at home in a FPS or ARPG". Slidecasting hasn't suddenly turned useless. BLM, even, is doing fine (without even being particularly reliant on Paradox or its 2nd charge of Triple-cast), let alone jobs with only 1.5-2s casts.
If anything, mechanical bloat seems the larger departure from previous tiers to now (in, say, P12S).
Nor would even a lower %uptime on particular jobs be problematic so long as they were fairly consistently so across a given expansion; one could just compensate the job for that, accordingly, via the traits and actions added since the previous expansion.
Almost guaranteed to have a lower %uptime? So be it; in compensation, just give that job more of the ppm that'd depend on said %uptime, with further ability to extend over the particular problem points (be that via some sort of Ancestral Vigor mechanic or whatever else). All that matters is the parity of overall value in practice (not against a striking dummy); it does not require perfect parity in each tangential factor like the amount of free healing (which further offensive potency could compensate for a lack of), %uptime (again, which potency can compensate for), etc.
Tl;dr: I don't think that movement requirements are so bad as to cripple jobs with more than a pittance of hard-casts -- nor, especially, bad enough to excuse further homogeneity or removal of contextual depth (as by removing difficulties in uptime optimization from Melee and Casters). -
07-10-2023, 09:03 AMAravell
I want to point out that removing Aetherflow will absolutely cripple SCH.
If you remove Aetherflow and all associated abilities, you lose value on Recitation because you can only use it on Succor/Adlo, no Indom, no Excog. You'd turn SCH into a healer that can only chad their co-healer because they bring barely any free healing to the table. Removing Aetherflow also turns SCH very quickly MP-negative, you'd want to avoid casting Succor even more than you already do now, which is kind of a problem, because Succor is your only method of reliably blocking damage now because every mitigation you have now is on a 2 minute timer, because removing Aetherflow also removed Sacred Soil. -
07-10-2023, 05:02 PMfulminating
There’s 3 lily buttons; st, wide and angry. Beyond that there’s several free heals and things - bene, temperance, divine venison, aquaveil, bell to name the ones that first sprang to mind.
Scholar has more aetherflow buttons: aetherflow (mp generator), energy drain, lustrate, soil, indom, dissipation(partial), excog, aetherpact (indirect- no aetherflow means no gauge), recitation(partial), formerly fey blessing (gauge). None aetherflow buttons are: physick, succor, adlo, whispering dawn, illumination, deployment & emergency tactics, summon seraph, protraction.
This is to highlight just how integral aetherflow is as a mechanic to scholar with roughly an equal number of buttons being tied to it as not. This is of course in a vacuum. When you look at which are frequently pressed - or able to be based on cooldown - there is a noticeable bias towards the aetherflow things. -
07-11-2023, 05:01 AMRenathras
Oh, so we're doing THIS again.
Nope. I'm gonna bow out.
Semi, they're all yours. -
07-11-2023, 05:21 AMSenahPanipahr
I'm not confident that debating to such a level of minutiae necessarily helps with this particular topic anyway, as the problem isn't needing a few abilities tweaked or removed, but a general issue with how Healer jobs are designed, the homogenisation of the role as a result, and how poorly it all fits with historic and current encounter design. (Unless I'm misunderstanding something, I thought most people here were on the same page as far as that all is concerned.)
-
07-11-2023, 06:41 AMRenathrasYes, which is also my point and why I'm consistently surprised how I can state something everyone agrees with but people want to argue about it. [EDIT: That is, people seem to love trying to "prove Ren wrong" even if it's something they agree with the overall concept of and where the minutia argument (a) doesn't prove me wrong - I can present arguments to counter the above, I just see it as pointless, and I'm trying to get better about not legitimizing the derailing and Ren bashing when there's an actual discussion to be had that isn't any of that; and (b) just gets lost in the weeds and derails the discussion away from "we all agree about X, what should be done about it?" into "I have a technical issue with Ren saying Y about X thing we all agree with, so instead of discussing solutions to X, I'm going to try to make him wrong about Y and fail at doing it because he is the white whale" or something. <_< ]Quote:
Originally Posted by SenahPanipahr
Concur that the issue is encounter design has changed over time to where healer designs that are closer to ARR are less viable, and that there's now a glaring disconnect between Healer kits and encounter design, which has led to a lot of shoehorning and a lot of homogenization. [EDIT: My point related to WHM and Lilies, as well as BLM and post-SB additions to the Job, are both cases of said shoehorning and was the entire point of me pointing out how WHM wouldn't work in current encounter design without them because it wouldn't have that mobility and mobile healing. It's had to be shoehorned to fit into the current encounter design at all. Even if we submit that SCH needs Aetherflow to be viable (we do not, but let's pretend), SCH had AF and all of those abilities since at latest SB, and they work just fine in EW, whereas WHM hardcasting Medica 2 or chain casting Cure 2 - both things that were viable at various times in the game's history - in EW era high movement fights, does not work without a Swiftcast and a huge chunk of MP that isn't sustainable.]
The obvious solutions are to roll back encounter designs, change Healer kits, or a hybrid solution of doing both. There may also be further solutions, but those three seem obvious from the jump. -
07-11-2023, 08:05 AMvetchUnironically, skill issue. You have, or had, an annoying habit of trying to shortcut people into agreeing with your conclusions once they agree with you on minutiae, so now everyone avoids agreeing with you on minutiae the same way a wolf won't step into a snare twice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I hope it's the first one. Trying to shoehorn a 'magical spellcaster healer' into an action RPG framework with constant movement is conceptually loathsome.Quote:
The obvious solutions are to roll back encounter designs, change Healer kits, or a hybrid solution of doing both.
-
07-11-2023, 08:16 AMSebazy
Perhaps a good thing would be to clarify what's changed and the manner in which it's driven current day healing off the rails.
IMHO it's really quite simple and most of the solutions have already been dropped piecemeal in various discussions here over the years.
SE don't really need to go back to ARR style encounter designs, but rather they need to look at what made those otherwise really rather basic bosses such good fun when the modern day equivalents like Alte Roite are almost universally derived.
Ramping up the damage on tanks, allowing bosses to keep auto attacking through casts, allowing those auto attacks to crit, bringing back non telegraphed mini tank busters and additional aoe procs with normalised RNG chances to really keep the healers on their toes. Make us sweat, make us have to keep an eye on the tanks, make us have to keep an eye on the melee. Stop allowing us to let someone sit at 100hp safe in the knowledge that the next AoE is clearly indicated on our spreadsheet and Assize/Asylum/Eos will get them topped long before anything else comes along.
Basically, more incoming damage coupled with less predictability. The sooner SE drop the weird esports mentality and stop trying to design both fights and jobs to be 'logs friendly' the better. I genuinely think it's sterilised the enjoyment out of Savage at this point. -
07-11-2023, 09:13 AMShurrikhanIf agreement on particulars is coincidental to disagreement on the warrants themselves, then no, it's not an overall agreement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
And since you've frequently shifted goalposts surrounding or made conclusions based on conflations about particulars or chain logical steps beyond their purchase ('PLD changes were largely considered a net positive, so everyone must surely like every part of the PLD changes, thus they must have hated DoTs on PLD, which implies that the SMN changes also were an unmitigated good') for instance, no shit, your minutia gets checked.
As for my overall stance on the relevant topic:
My personal preference is for a bit more melee movement requirements and constraints than are present currently, and slightly to faintly less caster movement requirements (in terms of how they affect in practice %uptime a couple thoughtful runs in) than are present currently, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with a Caster leveraging infrequently available spells or modifiers to nonetheless keep a high amount (or, %uptime) of actual casts, even in today's context. I do not consider that "shoe-horning" so much as simply additional room for skill-expression, which we already overly lack across most of the game.*
I much prefer we keep that room for skill expression, of casts on casters, melee being an actually limited range, etc., over further reducing all towards a lowest denominator of available optimization.
Of course, personally, my preference regarding something like BLM would be to make it slightly less reliant on Triplecast and Swiftcast, sure, but not by giving it numerous free instant-casts; instead, I'd simply decrease the relative cost of shorter AF strings slightly by siphoning a bit more potency towards pre-falloff Flare and later Despair and removing the 30% damage decrease on using Ice from AF3 or Fire from UI3. And, for the sake of leveling improvements and a more intuitive mechanic, I'd likely change most of the stat bonuses from their current awkward mess, wherein some effects are null until AF3/UI3, others maxed immediately, and none increase linearly (see that links above) to just 25% per stack.
But that the caster actually hard-casts... is totally fine. That it has some CDs discretely meant to help with that, so long as the kit isn't too thereby bloated (and I don't believe any case for trimming Triplecast as a "shoehorning" or "bloat" ability could be made as long as BLM's elemental pairings --F4<>B4, Flare<>Freeze, etc.-- remain on separate keys)... is likewise totally fine.
*Admittedly, room for skill expression is a nebulous topic, because the relative value of optimizations are zero-sum. The more the reward for always completing one's combo, the less there's a space for the potential reward of, say, clipping a combo early so that one can Chaos Thrust an add (that'd live for less than CT's 24 seconds, if all goes well) instantly upon its spawn. The larger the bonus in, say, Lance Mastery II (+100 potency on Move-5 of either combo), the less room there is to make decisions between where to end a combo (in that earlier hypothetical), but too little and there'd be no use case for Life Surge outside of Full Thrust. The larger the reward for hitting within raid buffs everything that can reasonably be banked for raid buffs, the less room there is for alternate functions of the skills used therein and the lower the relative value of optime optimization, positionals, or rotating correctly in any other respects. Etc., etc. -
07-11-2023, 10:45 AMRenathrasFirst, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by vetch
The argument style you're referring to is when you build up from a set of axioms to a conclusion, checking to see if people agree with the steps along the way. If the steps logically dictate the conclusion, this is a pretty valid way to outline a problem/solution to get agreement. "We agree on X. We agree on Y. We agree on Z. X + Y + Z = A, therefore we should reasonably agree on A." Sometimes people don't like this because they actually hold incongruent beliefs vs the axioms they accept, other times they disagree with the link - in which case the proper solution there is to argue whether the link is valid, which is a discussion worth having.
It's not a shortcut or a cheat. If one believes, for example, that taxes are too high but also wants government programs that require those taxes, it's fair to point out to them that they should be willing to accept cuts to services in order to achieve the cuts to taxes they desire, or alternatively, to accept the higher taxes for those services they enjoy. And it's fair to them to suggest a workaround if they can think of one, such as taxing only segments of the population or cutting some services they don't enjoy to make up the shortfall, at which point it's fair to counter that by asking why those services and not the others or why tax those people and not others, and so on.
There's no cheat or fallacy there, some people just don't like it because when arguments are broken down into steps, it often lays bare glaring errors in logic that someone may have used to reach their conclusion.
But, in either case, I haven't had that "annoying" habit. If I lay out such an argument, it's generally to try and see what all points we actually agree on so I know where we can find further points of agreement. Some people say they hold a position they actually do not, but if you can drill down to what they actually do believe, then it allows actual compromise and progress.
Thing is, FFXIV wasn't designed as an ARPG and doesn't work well as one. The netcode is pretty atrocious for it (just jump in a Frontline if you doubt that). Not only would such a change alienate the people who have been playing the game long enough they didn't sign up for that, it doesn't even work well anyway. Ultimately resulting in a situation that alienates many and satisfies few, even of they who advocate for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by vetch
I agree it's conceptually loathsome, but you have the causality backwards:
FFXIV isn't trying to shoehorn a magical spellcaster healer into an action RPG framework with constant movement.
FFXIV is trying to shoehorn an action RPG framework with constant movement onto a traditional tab targeting framework, netcode and class design.
Thus the problem isn't with the spellcaster healers, since that was the design of the game. The problem is trying to upend that entire system and impose an ARPG framework on it that it cannot support and that hasn't been the identity of the game.
Hear hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Okay, I'm done taking your troll bait:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Do you or do you not agree that encounter design and healer kits seem to not be designed to work with one another?
If you disagree, you're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with most of the people posting in this thread, including Semi who brought the point up in the first place specifically regarding WHM. It's not a you vs me thing, which you seem to love. It's a you vs everyone else thing. I'm not going to be your punching bag because you disagree with everyone else and are using me as your proxy to beat on because you enjoy beating on me, and/or you want to use me as a punching bag even when you agree with me on the basic point. So let's see if you agree with me and everyone else, or if you're the island here. The question is there and it's a simple question to answer, restated so you can't miss it:
Do you or do you not agree that encounter design and healer kits seem to not be designed to work with one another?
HAVE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
NOT.
And I'm not going to engage with people openly engaging in such bad faith. Two of you now. "Well, you did this thing (we're going to accuse you of even though you don't have a frequent habit of doing it, actually), so we can defend attacking you because we felt like it even though you're acting in good faith and trying to have a serious discussion on a topic that everyone kind of agrees on overall." No, not today.
If someone is engaging you in good faith, you should do the same, even if they HAD a history of bad faith. I actually do not, and it's been discussed to death that the cases people perceived that was due to them assuming things about what I was saying rather than asking to get clarification, and often taking part in dogpiles and stupid cliquish vendettas against people (me specifically) regardless of the topic, good faith, good will on my part, or anything that I do or have done other than whatever initially alienated you, which was a misconception on your part in most cases.
Case.
In.
Point:
"('PLD changes were largely considered a net positive, so everyone must surely like every part of the PLD changes, thus they must have hated DoTs on PLD, which implies that the SMN changes also were an unmitigated good')"???
What?
I have NEVER to my awareness said "everyone must surely like every part of the PLD changes". PROVE IT. Quote a post of mine where I said that. Because there isn't one and we both know it. You literally made that up. I have, since the changes in 6.3, described the response as "mixed". And even if I hadn't, I can't think of a time I've EVER said of ANY change that "everyone must surely like ever part of" it. Even changes that I like and think most people do, I'm quick to acknowledge not everyone likes the same things and it isn't universal. Indeed, I'm the most frequent poster HERE to say such things, and almost always the first to bring up that there is no universality. I even avoid using the term majority, even when I'm pretty sure there is one and what data we have backs up that there is one, instead opting for "some/many" instead of "most/majority". And where - again PROVE IT with a quote - did I say everyone hated DoTs on PLD and that implies SMN changes were an unmitigated good?
I want a QUOTE, because you made that BS up wholesale.
Not one person here will call you on it, mind you, but we all know it's a lie. Considering how often I hedge what I say and how even when I was invoking majority, I was still quick to point out there was dissent proves that's a lie, but the onus is on you to prove it's true.
QUOTE, please.
Oh, you don't have one?
Of course you don't: Because you made it up.
You either misinterpreted something, misremember something, or flat out made something up, and then used this to justify a completely separate argument and your attacks on someone, when your attacks are based on something that never even happened in the first place.
People tell me just to stop engaging with you guys when you do it. No one ever calls you out, so I don't expect anyone to this time. But I'm starting to take the advice of those like PetLalas to just not engage with you bad faith people.
You can answer the question above, or you can not. That's up to you.
If you don't, it proves my point.
If you do, then we can get back on topic, which is what we should be doing anyway.
If you just want to keep attacking me irrationally and in bad faith, then I'm not going to be a party to that childish vendetta. -
07-11-2023, 11:32 AMShurrikhanThe problem is when you frame things into false ultimatums in order to try to force out your next "logical step" towards a conclusion you clearly started from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Belabor transitive properties all you like; when those steps individually rely on reductivism or conflations, their conclusions are not going to be soundly arrived at.
Yes.Quote:
Do you or do you not agree that encounter design and healer kits seem to not be designed to work with one another?
WHICH IS NOT, HOWEVER, despite whatever you may imply, AGREEMENT THAT... fight design needs to have its mobility requirements significantly reduced (or even any amount greater than between 'not at all' and 'slightly'). I am just fine with casters and melee both having a deeper fight-specific learning curve for their movement/uptime optimization required, so long as they're compensated accordingly, and I'm just fine with movement optimizations increasing with expansions, provided we just as much toolage as we need to perform them.
I do not want to see those layers of optimization removed from jobs -- neither by homogenizing/fool-proofing their kits in regard to uptime management nor by providing significantly less challenge around which to interact in any given fight; it is perfectly fine for a level span that provides additional mobility tools to also carry additional mobility requirements. Moreover, I don't see how one could call Endwalker a sudden change into "an ARPG" except in obvious hyperbole.
Our agreement goes as far as "The current situation is not good." Beyond that incredibly nebulous point, though, we have largely disagreed:- on the extent to which it is "not good",
- on all but one reason for why it's "not good", and
- on all but one part of reasonable solutions for the problem.
And those components are important. That we would, for instance, agree that a problem (of some extent, for some reason), on the other hand, is barely a starting point. So just, please, do not pretend that my simply agreeing that "A exists" necessitates your B, C, and D. It doesn't. -
07-11-2023, 12:27 PMRenathras/ignoreQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
[EDIT: I don't mean this to be rude, but again, engaging with this is counterproductive, derailing, and legitimizes you doing it, and I don't intend to legitimize your personal attacks based on made up events. I've just decided it's better not to engage after pointing out once that it's wrong.]
And?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I didn't say it was.
I, myself, outlined three possible solutions that are all apparent as possibilities - change fight design, change kit design, change both - and that there are probably other possibilities.
You're doing it again - insisting that I'm saying something that I'm not saying. Maybe if you did that less, you'd be less worked up when replying to me. Stop inventing things to be angry about. I literally said there were AT LEAST three (two and a hybrid) possible solutions, AND that there were other solutions likely as well, just the 2+1 were the most apparent TO ME PERSONALLY. By saying this, there is no "pretend...that "A exists" necessitates..." when I openly said there are other possibilities.
Agreement that fight design and kits are disjointed is just that and no more.
Again, don't invent things to be angry about.
You're one of those people that invents things in my posts to be angry about (I doubt you can provide the quote I asked for; it was in an edit, but I was called away until just now, so apologies for the late edit on that, didn't see this post when I submitted it) and that festers in your mind, justifying your anger when in reality, it's not justified at all since it's based on something that never happened.
So just, please, try to stop doing that.
.
EDIT2:
You're welcome to step in any time. Just keeping the soapbox warm for you. You have the floor. (Well, the offer was to Semi, but have at it, Roe). Say something contributing to the discussion, not the personal attacks or dogpile, is my only request here.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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07-11-2023, 12:27 PMForsakenRoe
The 'I'm out, but not really' any% speedrun
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07-11-2023, 12:46 PMAravellRen says no one will defend him here, but I don't think I've ever seen him conflate all of those points together to form the conclusion you pointed out. He has said he prefers the new PLD, he has said he dislikes DoTs and he has said he likes the new SMN. But I don't think I've ever seen him add all this together and say new SMN is unmitigated good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
As for the topic, I'd say both fight design and job kits need some changing. The argument that fight design doesn't fit the job kits is partially flawed, if you want fights designed in such a way that uses the full kit that we have, you'd have to do some serious fight redesigning because we have way too much redundancies in the current kit. Although, purely just changing the kit will also not change that healers can be dropped in higher organised groups.
My opinion is that they need to change both. Cut out the redundancies in our kit, add more options to support the party or debuff the enemy. Also change fight design, bring back random targetted damage, bring back crit autos, give healers a reason to exist again, make it so tanks and DPS cannot keep up with the incoming damage. -
07-11-2023, 12:53 PMSenahPanipahrHah, this is really elucidating and depressing at the same time. Most of the the higher level stuff I've done has been ARR content on MINE. Didn't realise it was such an intentional pivot from after that since I've experienced far less of the harder raids and trials after that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Really sucks to learn/confirm, but thanks for the incidental explanation. The things you highlighted are a huge part of why I loved healing Coils and Titan Ex, but I don't have the firsthand experience to summarise them so well myself.
Is the esports mentality really such a thing? I'm not really clued in with with most of their devlog stuff around newer raids, because spoiler avoidance I guess; but it'd explain a lot. I don't really understand why they'd be designing around parsers given they're so negative around all that. (Though my best guess would be that they're afraid that adding more RNG to the mix will leave FFXIV players turning to the same thing that killed the fun in WoW -- i.e. DeadlyBossMods and co.)
@Renathras, I'm not going to pretend I understand the extent of any bad blood between other posters and you, so I'm going to keep myself out of those particular side discussions beyond what I already said about not getting bogged down on minutiae. Being clear and concise is probably our only shot at someone from SE seeing these repeated complaints and doing something with them (though I already accept there's a good chance we're just screaming at the void and each other). -
07-11-2023, 12:59 PMAravellI miss when I had to toss a Regen on the main tank during Trines in O8S or they die to autos. I don't think I've needed to press Regen once in most modern fights. Also the part about them designing fights to be log-friendly, that would explain why they stopped doing mechanics that give people a damage down for doing it correctly (Digititis) or mechanics that lock down a specific person in the fight (Hand phase in A3S and Titan gaols in E4S).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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07-11-2023, 01:20 PMForsakenRoeI threw one on each of the purpleboys in High Concept in like, week 1 prog, but once people had some gear the threat of the DOT fell off a cliff. Can't really check too many fights this tier (I was SCH for half of them), but I used Regens on the tanks when they got flung about in P10, and for the doorboss, my first 3 kills (which were all on the same day), only one of those kills had one lonely Regen in it, and looking at the log, I cannot even tell why I used it, but it was used right after Limit Cut, so it might have been in downtime anyway, I can't really tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
P12S phase 2 first kill also has a Regen cast count of... zero, surprising I know. 7 Medica 2's, but no Regen. So yeh, there's occasions where I use the button but, let's be real, I wouldn't be pressing Aspected Benefic in those situations (it is because AST has like 3x as much OGCD game as WHM) -
07-11-2023, 01:40 PMAravellThat's true, I forgot about P8S, early weeks was Regen on each purple, later weeks was just 1 Medica 2. I didn't prog P10S on WHM, but I think Regen there is just more of a safety net, I did have a WHM cohealer that didn't use Regen, I tossed an Excog on one tank and a tether on the other and they came out fine. I now recall that I did Regen both tanks in P3S adds phase though, those baby birds hit hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
I'm still casually progging P12S so I can't speak for healing in phase 2, but the healing requirement in phase 1 is looking rather lacking so far, since I can soloheal through Superchain Theory I when my cohealer died at the start of it. -
07-11-2023, 01:46 PMvetchI don't agree that this is what you're doing. I believe that you think it's what you're doing, that it's a worthy standard you're trying to live up to, but for the moment, I stand by my impression that you're skipping conversational steps without noticing, or that you're misidentifying the character of discussions in some other fundamental way that causes your method to misfire. If I'm wrong, just keep being yourself and I'll notice over time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
That said, I want to add an observation that this argument style wouldn't make you well-liked even if you were employing it with perfect form. People having ordinary conversations don't like being bullied into debates. Hell, sometimes they don't even like being forced to stake out a position before they're ready to. It's inherently tiresome, which is not a word you want applied to your conversational style if you're looking to have nice chats. The result of doing it anyway is precisely as you see -- either people ghost you or they embrace the junior debate club flavor you bring to the conversation and start picking apart your arguments like they're going to score points doing it.
Normal people who haven't consented to debate are better engaged, befriended, and convinced with smaller comments, repeated over time, regardless of any logical fallacies contained therein. This is a normal facet of human, non-debate interaction. If you want to pick apart someone's logical lacunae (because you just can't help yourself from doing so) while remaining well-liked enough that people don't avoid you on sight, then you have to exercise either a whole lot more tact and warmth that you currently do, or a whole lot less and just start butting heads openly.
I didn't mention any causality and I wasn't looking to have that particular conversation. But sticking to the point, note that you can draw a straight line through CBU3's recent offerings that points to them continuing down this ill-advised road of trying to turn FF14 into a clunky ARPG MMO, which means that healer kits will be chopped and shaped to fit, regardless of what predates what.Quote:
I agree it's conceptually loathsome, but you have the causality backwards: FFXIV isn't trying to shoehorn a magical spellcaster healer into an action RPG framework with constant movement. FFXIV is trying to shoehorn an action RPG framework with constant movement onto a traditional tab targeting framework, netcode and class design.
And that will make me very sad.
And there it is. The problem plaguing modern discussion of any topic, no matter how inconsequential: if someone doesn't find my argument well-formed and convincing, it must be that they're either trolling, or a bad-faith actor, or simply stupid, or some other problem inherent to them. It can't be that my arguments aren't as good and efficacious as I think they are, or that they're just plain mistaken about some stuff in an honest, understandable way. Therefore, the proper response is to publicly pathologize them, so everyone knows it's their problem and that they're a toxic element who is unwilling to engage with my good arguments.Quote:
And I'm not going to engage with people openly engaging in such bad faith. Two of you now. "Well, you did this thing (we're going to accuse you of even though you don't have a frequent habit of doing it, actually), so we can defend attacking you because we felt like it even though you're acting in good faith and trying to have a serious discussion on a topic that everyone kind of agrees on overall." No, not today.
I, and everyone else on every internet discussion forum that exists or ever will exist, reserve the right to stop talking and refuse engagement with someone who becomes annoying and pushy, regardless of whether they do so in good faith. As should you.Quote:
If someone is engaging you in good faith, you should do the same, even if they HAD a history of bad faith.
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07-11-2023, 04:27 PMSebazyI still remember the the first time we hit an intermission on O8S Clownka, we're all oohing and aaahing as the statue shifts FFVI style. Meanwhile Kefka proceeds to quietly kick the tanks into the floor whilst no-ones looking. Loved it =(Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell