YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That's nice. Your datacenter is also on JP. As this section is predominantly NA and EU players, it stands to reason we'll talk about our norms. And W2W pulls are very much the norm here. If you queued into a 100 Expert dungeons over the next five days on Aether, the overwhelming majority will see the tank pulling everything in sight. On the few occasions that doesn't happen, the healer or DPS are likely to do it for them.

What I want is for the tank to be useful. Small pulls do so little damage nowadays, you are little more than a gimped DPS if you refuse to wall pull. A Dragoon can do just as good a job tanking three months as a Warrior while dealing significantly higher damage to boot. Mobs simply don't deal enough damage to justify anything less than two packs. If you're 70+ and can't handle that. Don't tank.

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What part of

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(Except in 90 dungeons but hey, point still stands.)

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you didn't understand before talking about my datacenter?
If you're adult and still can't read all the text (that you are replying to at least) before replying, don't bother replying to it in first place. it is a waste of time. (Hell considering whatever you wrote, I'm pretty sure you don't even bother to read or take community policy to an account either)

Again, regardless of my datacenter or yours- my point still stands. It is that YOU GUYS WANT IT TO BE NORM, but it never is. you wanna tank to be "useful" all the time? stop pulling silently and throw tantrum on forum or whatever when you die in next 2 seconds. Ironically, it isn't "useful" or helpful behavior.
You want tank to always take your speedrunning playstyle to into account but your tank don't feel like doing it (and you really wanna insist), you gotta communicate or take it up your...back. Sometimes even I don't feel like taking 2 groups not because I can't handle it, but because PTDPS is so bad all of my mits gonna go all cd before next group. You know what happens if there is no mitigation? healer go cry cry because they can't spam holy every 2 seconds and I will definitely floor tank anywhere above 65+ dungeons, and that won't be my fault. Luckily that won't happen as much on 90 because most tank have an absurd amount of way to deal with damage, but the bad dps issue still occurs sometime.

Whatever other thing I wanted to say is already mentioned by three guys below you so, yeah

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Originally Posted by Rolanberries

That's fine, but pulling as a dps or healer is not griefing (main point of the OP), unlike refusing to grab the aggro from dps or healer.

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Can't have your cake and eat it too. If pulling over the tank isn't griefing than neither is the tank not picking up those mobs.

Mind you, I wouldn't complain as a tank. I'd just pick the add up and continue. Not worth the argument. More time would be spent arguing than just completing the content and moving on from that player. Also, the logistics of NOT picking up that mob (AOE attacks) make it a bit silly to even discuss it.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Can't have your cake and eat it too. If pulling over the tank isn't griefing than neither is the tank not picking up those mobs.

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Time to explain for the 5000000th time why one of those things is griefing, and the other isn't;



When someone pulls more mobs for the tank, they are doing so because they want to increase group efficiency and clear the dungeon faster.

When someone refuses to pick up mobs in an attempt to kill a party member, they are intentionally decreasing group efficiency and clearing the dungeon slower.

One of these things intentionally obstructs the game-defined objective of the party, the other is an attempt to make the party achieve those objectives faster.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

If pulling over the tank isn't griefing than neither is the tank not picking up those mobs.

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Read: "If you, for the purpose of saving the team time and addressing the present bottleneck, have the right to hurry my work when I'm, effectively, being idle or forcing wholly unnecessary constraints upon the entire team... I must then have the right to purposely avoid any work you might benefit from, even if it's to the team's detriment and uniquely breaches my explicit responsibilities."

/smh

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Oh so much fun to pull big just to have the DPS using single target abilities so things are dying at the speed of mud.

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First, the DPS pulling for a tank aren't going to be the ones refusing to AoE, or even in a party with a single-target-fixated coDPS or Cure-spammer. It happens when they've identified that the typical/default puller, the tank, is uniquely acting as a bottleneck.

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Is it easier on resources? Depends on the skill of everyone in the party.

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The difference in pack longevity between having CDs and not is pretty damn huge. The difference in tank sustain and healer throughput between having CDs and not is likewise huge. You would in most cases be safer, even, full-pulling and dealing with that damage under full CDs than dealing with half under full CDs and half under almost nothing. Normal sized pulls aren't going to force GCD healing. A complete lack of CDs during uptime due to taking more than twice as much time in combat, on the other hand, frequently will.

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It's cooperative content Try cooperating with the rest of the party. Try talking things over at the start.

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But, again, one is the norm, and it's not single pulls. If I'm new, sick, testing out new keybinds/UI, etc., I'm going to say as much. But that's on me to do so. The tank shouldn't be required to ask me if I'm up for healing what is simply a normal pull size. And if all else is going perfectly fine apart from the tank just not pulling enough to even require oGCD healing, I have no problems with "Can we please pull more?" being requested silently via a Stormbite on the second pack, especially since we're in a game where sensitivity to chat puts anyone communicative at far greater risk than those who just do.

We are starting to recycle points now. Maybe it's best to re-summarize what was discussed and ruminate over what goal we are trying to reach.


Main Topic Point #1 - YPYT Tanks are breaking the ToS rule for Lethargic Play and Aiding the Enemy

It's likely safe to say an overwhelming majority agree with this point. My take is it hurts everyone in the party even though the excuse is to "teach" the one player pulling a lesson.


Main Topic Point #2 - Anyone is allowed to pull

This point is where we are cycling. I even have stories from both FF14 and WoW that branch into grey zone areas I had to go into. To put it short, it is preferable to let the tank herd stuff in so the damage from the DPS is maximized the best it can be hitting all enemies. If enmity / threat is accidentally on a non-tank even with the tank pulling, drag it to the tank so the tank AoEs peel the enemies off of you. Problems can arise when a few players are out of practice or new to using the applicable cooldowns needed to make the mass pulls possible. This gets worse when we have conflicts from disagreements that could potentially breach the ToS for forcing opinions or play styles onto others. I know it's doubtful a Cure Bot Healer or Single Target DPS would pull for the tank, but you would be surprised. I have seen a few extreme examples where this very thing did happen. Why? Beats me if they can't handle mass pulls . . .


Conclusion?

So far, players on the arguing side I am on suggest we communicate our desire to pull more enemies and say their experience has had very high probability of working. In response, this has been rejected with claims that the communication must come from the others wanting slow pulls. Probability seemingly looks quite low the other side would accept slow pulls being communicated. A few might if there are genuinely enough new players.

We are now at an impasse at this rate for the thread. Are we asking for a "Mass Pull" or "Slow Pull" filter for the roulettes? Improved / Extended Halls of the Novice? A roulette achievement link to the Halls of the Novice to show proof of knowing the skills and spells? Asking for the "few" players wanting slow pulls to not queue is obviously not working. Trusts do not have those roulette tomestone rewards after all (which could be a talking point for a potential Slow Pull grouping solution).

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Originally Posted by Tigore

Probability seemingly looks quite low the other side would accept slow pulls being communicated

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I'm seeing several posts by people claiming that single-pulling is not the norm that say nonetheless that if someone communicates some reason for pulling slowly that they'd be fine with pulling slowly and none here who say they'd pull more regardless of whatever conditions affect their party, so... from what evidence does that claim come?

The difference in opinion is merely over on whom the responsibility for communication falls -- the ones wanting the more typical outcome or the less typical outcome, and on which is perceived as the more typical.

Admittedly, though, after some thousands of dungeons, I cannot imagine how the latter would be in debate (single-pull runs have almost always been with given cause and even then make up a scant percent of all my leveling roulettes, even if excluding all for which I was the tank).

A low probability does not necessarily mean it is impossible. That part of the paragraph was merely an observation I see with how the posts were typically worded. A strong, fervent desire for everyone to work towards doing mass pulls. Since it is indeed faster to do and possible with cooldown management. We are in agreement with this point I hope. The sentence right after the quote you chose gets into the typical reason why players on your argument side may make an exception. Which would be new players since they can't just wave a magic wand to instantly know what to do and have the muscle memory.

Would the suggestions I made work out for you? Particularly the one for expanding the Trust system to make it possible for more players to group into. I see more dungeons are getting added into it, so it may perhaps be Square's plan to use it as a solution to this problem.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

A low probability does not necessarily mean it is impossible. That part of the paragraph was merely an observation I see with how the posts were typically worded. A strong, fervent desire for everyone to work towards doing mass pulls. Since it is indeed faster to do and possible with cooldown management. We are in agreement with this point I hope.

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Yep, absolutely.

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The sentence right after the quote you chose gets into the typical reason why players on your argument side may make an exception. Which would be new players since they can't just wave a magic wand to instantly know what to do and have the muscle memory.

Would the suggestions I made work out for you?

Particularly the one for expanding the Trust system to make it possible for more players to group into. I see more dungeons are getting added into it, so it may perhaps be Square's plan to use it as a solution to this problem.

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Sorry, I had meant to cover those at the same time, but must have lost my edit.

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We are now at an impasse at this rate for the thread. Are we asking for a "Mass Pull" or "Slow Pull" filter for the roulettes? Improved / Extended Halls of the Novice? A roulette achievement link to the Halls of the Novice to show proof of knowing the skills and spells? Asking for the "few" players wanting slow pulls to not queue is obviously not working. Trusts do not have those roulette tomestone rewards after all (which could be a talking point for a potential Slow Pull grouping solution).

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1. The span of exceptions for which no one argues with small pulls...

I do not think this has ever been limited to being new. I once had a kind of bug that kept me awake for days on end (literally some 70+ consecutive hours awake), and towards the end, I just tried to de-stress by doing some leveling. Not the nicest thing of me to do in that state, I realize, as it did slow down the party in a way I knew would happen, but I was desparate for just something to shake things up and let me relax. Had our tank been a Warrior I might not have bothered mentioning it, but I was healing a DRK. At any rate, I just briefly explained that, and we went about as hard as I could handle without it turning stressful, and everyone was super chill about it, with a bit of banter between pulls. Other times I've just had a very drunk tank who encouraged pulling for him and dumping mobs in his AoE spam. It's not necessarily just new or nervous who warrant more attendant action.

No, no one is expecting new players to suddenly know how to do everything their party may want just because their party wants it. Similarly, a migraine won't go away just because one wishes it. But, learning requires some degree of pushing and most do want the playerbase to get better, and if there's gear enough to 3-man anyways, some might not be too keen to slow the run for what accounts to placating the last player's sense that they're contributing normally when they're falling short of their own norm. And those don't seem conflicts worth worrying about. I prefer we just... adapt rather than systematically avoid having to do so, given the likely costs of any that systemic intervention.

2. Expansion of Trust system as solution to small/normal pulling conflicts...

I do not think expanding the Trust system will at all affect the points in contention. In fact, it may slightly worsen it. I do still think we ought to expand it, to fill in those gaps, but Trusts are primarily only useful in helping players figure out the mechanics of a given dungeon, as there is no feedback nor relevant point of comparison to any real runs. With Trusts, one can run in, AoE a few times as tank, and afk through the rest, if single-pulling, and unless suddenly finding oneself randomly in the matchmade equivalent of hell, the flow and speed of Trust runs are nothing alike to real runs; the only point around which they're not exceedingly lenient is mechanics, for which they are actually far more stringent due to being unable to be rezzed. Only if Trusts better mirrored real play (all AI actually AoEing, AI Tank more often pulling multiple groups where reasonable, etc.) would this affect the situation in question.

3. Filtering DF runs by small/normal pull preferences as a solution to conflicts...

While filtering DF runs by "fast" and "slow" might be more streamlined than using the PF (because it's rare to find the PF used for anything but even speedier heal-less runs or leveling spams for that accumulated banter and eventually slightly greater expertise), it likewise doesn't solve the 'problem' of most wanting others to learn how to play decently in at least those most basic of sense (pull as much as can be handled, use CDs, use AoEs) as not to have one's and content variety held back over the years... and it would increase queue times while formalizing into a point of polarization something is just learning curve. Given even a small modicum of experience, normal pull sizes are no more stressful than small pulls, and we probably wouldn't be talking about it to nearly this degree if it hadn't already been so polarized and waved off into 'casualism vs. elitism' instead of just the equivalent of 'in a 123 combo, 3 comes after 2, which comes after 1.'

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Time to explain for the 5000000th time why one of those things is griefing, and the other isn't;



When someone pulls more mobs for the tank, they are doing so because they want to increase group efficiency and clear the dungeon faster.

When someone refuses to pick up mobs in an attempt to kill a party member, they are intentionally decreasing group efficiency and clearing the dungeon slower.

One of these things intentionally obstructs the game-defined objective of the party, the other is an attempt to make the party achieve those objectives faster.

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You can make your assumptions and I can make mine. While I clearly state it is in the tank's best interest to just get aggro on on that mob that the DPS/healer pulled, your assumption is that it is the DPS's job to pull.

I don't care who pulls, but you make an assumption. So to you (and others), it is not griefing to pull over the tank. However, that's only based on your assumption. Perusing the actual role descriptions provided by the developers of this fine game, it doesn't say DPS/healers should pull. If the tank's job is getting attention of the mobs (which it does say), that involves pulling. How do you get a mob's attention? You aggro it. Therefore, tanks are the pullers.

But in almost every scenario, tanks should pick up all adds regardless. One of the only times I'd disagree is in a place like Eureka or Bozja when mobs can be trained for malms. If a party member drags in those higher tier enemies in Bozja to an ill-prepared group, it is a wipe. It would be griefing by the DPS to bring those mobs in and not griefing by the tank to ignore them.

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Originally Posted by nekomir

What part of

you didn't understand before talking about my datacenter?
If you're adult and still can't read all the text (that you are replying to at least) before replying, don't bother replying to it in first place. it is a waste of time. (Hell considering whatever you wrote, I'm pretty sure you don't even bother to read or take community policy to an account either)

Again, regardless of my datacenter or yours- my point still stands. It is that YOU GUYS WANT IT TO BE NORM, but it never is. you wanna tank to be "useful" all the time? stop pulling silently and throw tantrum on forum or whatever when you die in next 2 seconds. Ironically, it isn't "useful" or helpful behavior.
You want tank to always take your speedrunning playstyle to into account but your tank don't feel like doing it (and you really wanna insist), you gotta communicate or take it up your...back. Sometimes even I don't feel like taking 2 groups not because I can't handle it, but because PTDPS is so bad all of my mits gonna go all cd before next group. You know what happens if there is no mitigation? healer go cry cry because they can't spam holy every 2 seconds and I will definitely floor tank anywhere above 65+ dungeons, and that won't be my fault. Luckily that won't happen as much on 90 because most tank have an absurd amount of way to deal with damage, but the bad dps issue still occurs sometime.

Whatever other thing I wanted to say is already mentioned by three guys below you so, yeah

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Speaking of throwing a tantrum. If you're going to throw one yourself and accuse someone of not reading, perhaps you should take your own advice. While yes, I did use Expert as an example. I specifically said 70+ dungeons in the very post you quoted. Funny how you conveniently missed that part in your little rant.

With that said, you can scream it's "not the norm!" all you fancy. It is on NA and EU datacenters. We simply have a different philosophy here. Whether it be 90—erm, I'm sorry, that seemed to trigger—89 or lower, tanks will overwhelming W2W. If they don't, it'll be a two pack pull. The only exception you'll see are the super pulls from ShB, i.e: Qitana and Mt. Gulg, specifically. So, no. Your point doesn't stand. You're trying to apply a JP philosophy onto NA and wondering why you're getting push back. Bit ironic considering one of JP's criticisms of NA is doing precisely that.

Now for the portion of your post I highlighted. To be entirely blunt here, if you aren't pulling two packs above 70 (honestly, it should be above 60), you aren't capable of tanking. Which is perfectly fine. Just go practice in lower level content until you get better. There's nothing wrong with lacking experience. There is, however, when you queue into content above your experience and demand everyone conform to your preference. Now if the majority of people want to pull small and sightsee, more power to them. The odd person out is the wall puller, thus they should "take it up your... back" as you so eloquently put it or eat the 30 minute penalty. Even as a tank main, I'll abide by the majority. If I'm not in the mood for a sightseeing run, I'll just leave and do something else for 30 minutes.

All of your mitigation being on CD, generally, means you don't know how to tank properly and should practice cycling your CDs in lower level content. There are exceptions of course but they are rare even with a healer who doesn't use oGCDs. Conversely, you could use the Duty Support system. You know, that feature literally designed for players who want a slow, RP-esque experience without having to worry about random player interruption. Use it. You wanna know what's frustrating? Players who refuse to use Duty Support because "it's too slow!" or "I play an MMO to play with people not bots!" Only to then get mad when said people have differing preferences.

At the end of the day, a tank pulling one pack is nothing more than a gimped DPS. Your role is literally useless. You aren't needed whatsoever. The Dragoon with Bloodbath will be just as efficient tanking as you will be due to how little damage three mobs actually do. You keep calling W2W a "speedrun." Actual speedruns drop healers entirely. Most dungeon from at least Stormblood up, can and have been W2W without a healer. Even Dark Knight can W2W a good chunk of dungeons without a healer. So if you don't even need a healer, period, when pulling 6-8 mobs. Imagine how paltry the damage is to a tank with only three mobs? In fact, you want to know how bad single pulls are? Urianger can heal the big pull in Mt. Gulg. Not the ridiculous super pull but the first wave of nine mobs? He can handle that. So you pulling one pack there means you're less effective than a bot.

The irony is by making mobs so non-threatening, the devs have inadvertently encouraged DPS and Healers to pull because there's next to no risk in them doing so.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

@ ForteNightshade

Umm . . . it's not just new or anxious tanks. Even our OP agrees that the issue is not always black and white. Some tanks might downgrade to single pulls to accommodate for the other roles. We sometimes get "Cure bot" healers (that Free Cure trait) and / or single target DPS (because Alisaie does it and the animations look cooler, right?). I am kidding with the brackets.

Sometimes the tanks may very well want to mass pull too, but can't because a few other group members wouldn't be able to handle it. At the same time, I wouldn't want to just kick them from group since they may very well become great healers or DPS later on. Maybe talk to the group nicely if you want them to learn the ropes faster?

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These are the exception not the rule. Even a "Cure bot" can keep a tank alive unless it's Cure I. In which case, I'll explain to them why they shouldn't be using Cure I passed level 30 for the most part. On the rare occasion they refuse, I'll either leave or Vote Kick. I'm not going to single pull because I have a WHM who refuses to utilize their kit. At that point, you're griefing your team and should stick to Trusts. Obviously, this applies to higher level dungeons. I don't have this expectation in say, Stone Vigil or even The Vault. Mt. Gulg though? I can appreciate you struggling on the super pull, and will back down from that. If you're still spamming Cure I by then though? That's just griefing. It's little different than queuing into the dungeon with 60 gear.

It's just wrong dungeon etiquette to be pulling as dps or healer.

Tank leads, you follow and hit what the tank pulls, simple as.

If he only pull one pack, deal with it, how vain do you have to be that those 5 extra minutes matter THAT much to you?
it only happens like 1 out of 500 dungeon runs anyway, I don't think I've had it happen a single expert roulette in endwalker so far, but if it does, I'll let the tank be and let kardia heal him while I chill and listen to a podcast on youtube.

If you don't want this to happen, tank yourself then or group with a tank friend you know pulls as much as possible, problem solved.

If there is one thing I can say is constant for both FF14 and WoW, MMO games have not been doing a very good job with teaching their own players how to use the classes / jobs. This was one of the base points I was getting at and I was getting concerned how this situation was going to be handled by the other players. Both games have relied on third party sites to do the job for them on teaching the players. Icy Veins was usually the site of choice for Warcraft with "The Balance" Discord channel being the choice for FF14. Icy Veins is also attempting to become a resource for FF14 too, but I am currently noticing the Balance still being the best choice. Admittedly, I had to take a look see there to verify what the Ogi combo and Blitz system did to the Samurai and Monk classes. Eventually, I did my own adaptations when enemy packs died at different times expected. Still, seeing the best opener rotations for Savage runs really helped.

It would be nice to see the Trusts improved to grants AoEs to the NPCs as well. I believe they didn't do it yet because maybe they thought it might step on the toes of the current roulette runs . . . or maybe there is still work to be done for the code to read when they have 3+ viable targets in their range. I don't see Trusts replacing player runs for a couple reasons still. The NPCs have their own spells to use and do not have the special damage increasing cooldowns we have as the goated Warriors of Light. One of them doesn't even follow the traditional Black Mage rotation and cycles through the White Mage elements. The NPCs also stop doing damage on occasion when they are obeying mechanics. As for the NPC tanks, healers and DPS doing the double pulls, I suppose that could be "Normal difficulty" with Single Pulls being "Easy difficulty". They might need to be programmed to pause a couple GCDs by the first group, then they all run to the second group for Normal difficulty. As for the stiffness in the resurrection being non-existent for the first Trust runs, I think they managed to make a buff that gave this to you in an 89 8 man Trial Trust run. You will be stunned for 5 seconds when you "die", but will get back up with the buff subtracting 1 from itself for available self-rezzes. Some adaptation of that self-rez buff might work for the other 4 man dungeon variants during each boss.

The Halls of Novice I hear may show promise in being a tool to help teach the players. So far, I just hear it teaches some role basics. It may need some class / job specific tutorials with a scenario made to test and check the use of the skills. Once the scenarios for each skill is introduced, a 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 challenge scenario can be done to test how well the player can use cooldowns for double pulls or bosses. It may need to suggest Regen and Divine Benison (lvl 70) for the WHM case as a base, but mention that at least another cooldown or spell heal over time should be supplemented with these 2.

I always find it funny when a DD runs ahead to pull enemies. In the end it just slows the run down. Tank has to grab all the enemies which are running all over the place, healers have to heal unnecessary damage and nobody can properly AoE the mobs down.

And it often is not "because the tank was too slow", they are often ranged dps who run ahead before the mobs died and use movement skills to be even faster. No tank possibly can be that fast. Well maybe if they too start running before the mobs are dead, casters and melee dps love that >.>

When I tank I grab any mobs I see. My role as a tank is to keep the aggro of any mob that attacks my comrades and I. If any mob starts being aggressive towards us(either from me or my comrades getting their attention, doesnt really matter), I will take their aggro. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Tint

I always find it funny when a DD runs ahead to pull enemies. In the end it just slows the run down. Tank has to grab all the enemies which are running all over the place, healers have to heal unnecessary damage and nobody can properly AoE the mobs down.

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...This is incredibly rare. The vast majority of non-tank pulls just guide the pulled mobs right through tank AoEs and/or used Bloodbath, Arm's Length and/or Second Wind to decrease tank and healer resources used over the pull.

God I love dps who run ahead and Arm's Length mobs for me, they're solid and cooler than anyone in this thread who whines about dps pulling for tanks.

Tanks are meant to take hits. DPS are made to give hits. Why this discussion keeps popping up is beyond me. Next thing you'll try to sell us on is BLM ley line deaths are worth the 50% drop to DPS. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Tanks are meant to take hits. DPS are made to give hits. Why this discussion keeps popping up is beyond me. Next thing you'll try to sell us on is BLM ley line deaths are worth the 50% drop to DPS. :rolleyes:

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Gotta love your strawman/false equivalency.

DPS are able to pull and tank in Normal mode content. Tanks simply excel at it. This has no equivalence to a BLM standing in their Ley Lines and dying because of it.

Outside of the new addition of Criterion, mobs do pitiful damage either way. Melee jobs in particular have solid longevity as long as they have access to Bloodbath and individual melee jobs have something in their kit that complements it.

If melee jobs can survive an Onslaught of three to four mobs that he pulls to the tank then the tank is not exactly in a position to scream "this is too much for me!". At that point I'd ask him to turn off tank stance every second pull and focus on damage.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Can't have your cake and eat it too. If pulling over the tank isn't griefing than neither is the tank not picking up those mobs.

Mind you, I wouldn't complain as a tank. I'd just pick the add up and continue. Not worth the argument. More time would be spent arguing than just completing the content and moving on from that player. Also, the logistics of NOT picking up that mob (AOE attacks) make it a bit silly to even discuss it.

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This is just false equivalency that is easy to decipher. If I'm tanking and a dps or healer pulls mobs to me, I'll just collect them as its my job to make sure theyre not hitting the party(even be thankful). It's not the end of the world if they pull and I can still do my role if they do this wisely and everyone is happy.

As a tank, purposefully avoiding picking up threat and avoiding protecting the party(your role) because of some internalized payback to those not catering to "YOUR" playstyle is an entirely different beast.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

If melee jobs can survive an Onslaught of three to four mobs that he pulls to the tank then the tank is not exactly in a position to scream "this is too much for me!". At that point I'd ask him to turn off tank stance every second pull and focus on damage.

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Don't try to call me on strawman then pull the same shit. I never said anything about it being too much. Few people do in this YPYT argument. It's about making more work for the healer and tank. This is about non-tanks sprinting out of the gate to pick things up, when the best approach for the tank is to actually pop sprint just ahead of the mobs to gather everything and space out the damage and get everything situated for the DPS.

DPS should worry less about pulling mobs / rushing the party along and think more about actually getting a decent burst off on ALL the mobs when the tank has them all together.

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Originally Posted by Ravenwatch

This is just false equivalency that is easy to decipher. If I'm tanking and a dps or healer pulls mobs to me, I'll just collect them as its my job to make sure theyre not hitting the party(even be thankful). It's not the end of the world if they pull and I can still do my role if they do this wisely and everyone is happy.

As a tank, purposefully avoiding picking up threat and avoiding protecting the party(your role) because of some internalized payback to those not catering to "YOUR" playstyle is an entirely different beast.

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As per my other post, what if the context is an instanced dungeon like Eureka or Bozja. And your DPS or healer trains over multiple Tier V or whatever enemies that will wipe your party. Do you still grab them? Or is it griefing?

If the healer wasn't prepared for 20 adds and they are pulled anyway - is the healer griefing if they don't keep the party alive?

It is not a false equivalence because you say so.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Don't try to call me on strawman then pull the same shit. I never said anything about it being too much. Few people do in this YPYT argument. It's about making more work for the healer and tank. This is about non-tanks sprinting out of the gate to pick things up, when the best approach for the tank is to actually pop sprint just ahead of the mobs to gather everything and space out the damage and get everything situated for the DPS.

DPS should worry less about pulling mobs / rushing the party along and think more about actually getting a decent burst off on ALL the mobs when the tank has them all together.

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"The best approach";

Based on what? Your personal feelings about the matter? There are plenty of optimized settings in which DPS pulling for the tank is pretty common. It happens all the time in dungeon speeds, even in parties where they decline entirely to bring a healer. It's usually a net-neutral, and at best it can be an efficiency gain.

YPYT is just an ego thing.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

As per my other post, what if the context is an instanced dungeon like Eureka or Bozja. And your DPS or healer trains over multiple Tier V or whatever enemies that will wipe your party. Do you still grab them? Or is it griefing?

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I mean, in Bozja it's really common for non-tanks to run around and aggro a bunch of stuff and then pull it into a CE with the expectation that a tank will pick it up and everyone will get some clusters out of it. Tier V mobs usually only get aggroed by accident, and usually just rapidly kill the person who aggroed them anyway.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

If the healer wasn't prepared for 20 adds and they are pulled anyway - is the healer griefing if they don't keep the party alive?

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The healer is griefing if they intentionally opt not to even try. If they give it their genuine best shot, no one is going to call them a griefer.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

"The best approach";

Based on what? Your personal feelings about the matter? There are plenty of optimized settings in which DPS pulling for the tank is pretty common. It happens all the time in dungeon speeds, even in parties where they decline entirely to bring a healer. It's usually a net-neutral, and at best it can be an efficiency gain.

YPYT is just an ego thing..

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Do whatever you like in PF. I'm talking about roulettes. Standard practice is the tank handles mobs and adjusts the pace if need be, as you don't always get people in the best gear. That's what I've seen in my thousands of runs.

There's no ego involved in this, other than the person charging ahead, acting like they're doing anyone a favor. That's the epitome of ego: "I did this and you must be accepting and thankful"

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Do whatever you like in PF. I'm talking about roulettes. Standard practice is the tank handles mobs and adjusts the pace if need be, as you don't always get people in the best gear. That's what I've seen in my thousands of runs.

There's no ego involved in this, other than the person charging ahead, acting like they're doing anyone a favor. That's the epitome of ego: "I did this and you must be accepting and thankful"

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Isn't the whole argument for Roulette "anything goes. So deal with it"? You do realize that applies to both sides, yes? Therefore, if you're a tank who only likes small pulls, you can also go to PF and setup a premade. When it takes over an hour to fill maybe you'll start to realize people don't actually like small pulls.

It is entirely an ego thing. You can be annoyed by someone but still do your job. Turning off your stance and outright refusing to tank because the Dragoon aggro'd first is nothing but ego. Especially when the YPYT types will almost always type in chat about "teaching you a lesson."

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Isn't the whole argument for Roulette "anything goes. So deal with it"? You do realize that applies to both sides, yes? Therefore, if you're a tank who only likes small pulls, you can also go to PF and setup a premade. When it takes over an hour to fill maybe you'll start to realize people don't actually like small pulls.

It is entirely an ego thing. You can be annoyed by someone but still do your job. Turning off your stance and outright refusing to tank because the Dragoon aggro'd first is nothing but ego. Especially when the YPYT types will almost always type in chat about "teaching you a lesson."

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All he does is make broad, empty statements like "There is no ego involved" or "This is the best approach".

Most of his views seem to just revolve around his own personal feelings, which frankly isn't surprising at all in a thread with people unironically defending YPYT.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Isn't the whole argument for Roulette "anything goes. So deal with it"? You do realize that applies to both sides, yes? Therefore, if you're a tank who only likes small pulls, you can also go to PF and setup a premade. When it takes over an hour to fill maybe you'll start to realize people don't actually like small pulls.

It is entirely an ego thing. You can be annoyed by someone but still do your job. Turning off your stance and outright refusing to tank because the Dragoon aggro'd first is nothing but ego. Especially when the YPYT types will almost always type in chat about "teaching you a lesson."

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I've never heard of such an argument, but I would say people should be prepared for suboptimal pulls as not everyone keeps their gear up to date. Other than that, to quote the great one, know your role and shut your mouth. ;)

I've done none of these things. I've seen almost none of this. Some people in lower levels pull small because they're learning. I'm always getting everything. Go bother someone that actually causes whatever problems supposedly exist.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

As per my other post, what if the context is an instanced dungeon like Eureka or Bozja. And your DPS or healer trains over multiple Tier V or whatever enemies that will wipe your party. Do you still grab them? Or is it griefing?

If the healer wasn't prepared for 20 adds and they are pulled anyway - is the healer griefing if they don't keep the party alive?

It is not a false equivalence because you say so.

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I just outlined why it was false equivalency, and you have now rebounded to whataboutism AND strawmanning when I provided a clear and concise comparison of why they are different. It's not "because I say so".

It is not worth keeping this discussion up in good faith as you are constantly compromising that with fallacy over fallacy, but I'll humor your final point. In certain circumstances, you communicate and adjust where needed. Period. Obviously this stuff isn't cemented in stone.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Don't try to call me on strawman then pull the same shit. I never said anything about it being too much. Few people do in this YPYT argument. It's about making more work for the healer and tank. This is about non-tanks sprinting out of the gate to pick things up, when the best approach for the tank is to actually pop sprint just ahead of the mobs to gather everything and space out the damage and get everything situated for the DPS.

DPS should worry less about pulling mobs / rushing the party along and think more about actually getting a decent burst off on ALL the mobs when the tank has them all together.

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I posted no strawman. At best I described what melees are capable of, at worst I described what I pulled off as a melee without causing anyone worries / when my tank imploded from standing in orange AOEs. The fact is there is no danger involved with a DPS pulling extra.

I called you out for a strawman argument because you tried to use "staying in Leylines despite dying" equivalence/projection, which is taking it from "DPS pulling extra into the tank" to "DPS not dodging the orange AOE and dying for it" - one insinuates that you actually do something about not dying, the other one clearly is not.

Either way, to meet in a healthy middle - I believe it is the tank's job to verbally explain if they are anxious and will tell people that they will pull less. The most common practice in non-verbal parties is wall-to-wall and cycling your cooldowns, so if you want to be non-standard, speak up. If people THEN go against the grain and force more on the tank, then we can actually start thinking about what needs to be done:

1.) Tank leaves / gets removed because they don't want to handle that pace forced upon them
2.) DPS/Healer leaves / gets removed because they don't want to handle the pace that the tank is putting up for them
3.) Everyone makes up and takes it as a challenge/chance to improve

Either way, YPYT is as stupid as going against the playstyle of the majority in the party.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

It is entirely an ego thing. You can be annoyed by someone but still do your job. Turning off your stance and outright refusing to tank because the Dragoon aggro'd first is nothing but ego. Especially when the YPYT types will almost always type in chat about "teaching you a lesson."

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You're right. It's entirely an ego thing.

The DPS ego that thinks they get the right to dictate how things will be done to the rest of the party and that it's up to the tank to meet their standards instead of the entire party talking things over.

Most players going into a dungeon with randoms are fine with the tank pulling at a pace the tank is comfortable with. It's only the egotistical DPS who feel otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I posted no strawman. At best I described what melees are capable of, at worst I described what I pulled off as a melee without causing anyone worries / when my tank imploded from standing in orange AOEs. The fact is there is no danger involved with a DPS pulling extra.

I called you out for a strawman argument because you tried to use "staying in Leylines despite dying" equivalence/projection, which is taking it from "DPS pulling extra into the tank" to "DPS not dodging the orange AOE and dying for it" - one insinuates that you actually do something about not dying, the other one clearly is not.

Either way, to meet in a healthy middle - I believe it is the tank's job to verbally explain if they are anxious and will tell people that they will pull less. The most common practice in non-verbal parties is wall-to-wall and cycling your cooldowns, so if you want to be non-standard, speak up. If people THEN go against the grain and force more on the tank, then we can actually start thinking about what needs to be done:

1.) Tank leaves / gets removed because they don't want to handle that pace forced upon them
2.) DPS/Healer leaves / gets removed because they don't want to handle the pace that the tank is putting up for them
3.) Everyone makes up and takes it as a challenge/chance to improve

Either way, YPYT is as stupid as going against the playstyle of the majority in the party.

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I did a rolleyes at the end of my ley lines comment which was a separate point to begin with. I think if I put a "/s" after, you people still wouldn't understand the sarcasm in that point. I stopped feeling bad for having to bear witness to this level of incompetence a while back. You and a couple others have some kind of reading comprehension problem and can't seem to talk directly to my point and you go off on tangents.

The reason the tank sets the pace is that is the tank that knows what mitigations it has available at any time.
Not the healer. Nor the DPS.

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Originally Posted by rxantos

The reason the tank sets the pace is that is the tank that knows what mitigations it has available at any time.
Not the healer. Nor the DPS.

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You realize that DPS cooldowns and healer CDs are equally important to surviving a trash pull, no?

Tank CDs are the most important for surviving a OHKO or extreme burst damage. As damage intake rates decrease, however, the value of greater flat recovery (as from healer CDs) or from ending the damage intake entirely before all mitigation and recovery CDs are too long exhausted (as from damage CDs) start to surpass them.

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Originally Posted by rxantos

The reason the tank sets the pace is that is the tank that knows what mitigations it has available at any time.
Not the healer. Nor the DPS.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You realize that DPS cooldowns and healer CDs are equally important to surviving a trash pull, no?

Tank CDs are the most important for surviving a OHKO or extreme burst damage. As damage intake rates decrease, however, the value of greater flat recovery (as from healer CDs) or from ending the damage intake entirely before all mitigation and recovery CDs are too long exhausted (as from damage CDs) start to surpass them.

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I'd even argue that healer CDs are more important than tank CDs; Tank should pretty much always have something available unless they're (for some reason) consistently doubling up on cooldowns. Using WAR as an example, here are the durations/cooldowns:

Rampart - 20s/90s
Reprisal - 10s/60s
Arm's Length - 15s/120s
Bloodwhetting - 12s/25s
Vengence - 15s/120s
Thrill of Battle - 10s/90s

Every 3 minutes, you'll have 192 seconds worth of mitigations (that's more than 3 minutes' worth). Hell, every other 3 minute window you'll get an extra use of the 120s mitigations giving you another 30s on top of that. At high levels, there is no argument for tanks "not having mits available." That also ignores the invuln every other 3 minutes (ish) too. Except for some "spicy" trash pulls, any one of those mitigation abilities combined with possibly a couple of healer CDs is enough. I'll repeat, healer CDs/resources definitely more of a problem than tanks having mits available.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

You're right. It's entirely an ego thing.

The DPS ego that thinks they get the right to dictate how things will be done to the rest of the party and that it's up to the tank to meet their standards instead of the entire party talking things over.

Most players going into a dungeon with randoms are fine with the tank pulling at a pace the tank is comfortable with. It's only the egotistical DPS who feel otherwise.

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So its perfectly fine to keep the entire party there for an extra 10-20m because the tank "doesnt feel comfortable" when it should be the healer who should be worried. Tank has one thing to worry about, grabbing all the mobs while pressing their two button AoE combo and popping a CD every 10-15s. Healers need juggle their resources (MP, Lillies, aetherflow, cards and whatever sage has) along with CDs, and watching the tanks health all while popping their AoE damage button.

If the DPS is getting annoyed at a single pull tank, its because they could be wiping out 2-3 packs of trash in the same amount of time as the ONE trash, while the healer (SCH/SGE mostly) is sitting there on most of their CDs because nothing is even coming close to hurting the tank.

Tell me, If I run Tam-tara as a SCH and the tank wall to walls that, and we complete it in 9m all the while pumping out damage, why should we stand for a tank pulling one or two enemies at time and it takes 20m to clear. At that point we dont even need a tank. Heck, I queued into Castrum, WAR of all things tried that single pull stunt, got mad at me going ahead of him, left. Me (SAM), a SGE and I think a SMN finished the dungeon without a tank, as I wound up tanking 2/3rds of that dungeon and only died once when I screwed up a boss mech.

You want to single pull please queue up for duty support.

The only time its acceptable to single pull is in criterion dungeons and if your tank and healer dont have the gear, though at that point you're probably better off just taking the L and dipping out.

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Originally Posted by Chiharu_Sakurai

So its perfectly fine to keep the entire party there for an extra 10-20m because the tank "doesnt feel comfortable" when it should be the healer who should be worried

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Then the healer should pull. The healer is responsible for keeping the tank alive, and the tank is responsible for taking the aggro, if the tank at least does that, then the healer can still do its task.

Tanks might not be comfortable at first, but this can at least show him he can, do that a few times, and the tank might realize it better.

But its best noticed when the entire team is just running past the tank and waiting for him to follow. As at that point its not just the DPS alone, its the team. TPYT as a team is completely fine, as that is teamwork!

Still, it might be that i think that way because as tank i generaly try to w2w in most duties, however, in some dungeons im still going to be more careful (especialy when new to it). But even here, i will take at least 2 mobs. There is no reason to take 1, unless you are in satasha.

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Originally Posted by Chiharu_Sakurai

So its perfectly fine to keep the entire party there for an extra 10-20m because the tank "doesnt feel comfortable" when it should be the healer who should be worried.

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It's not gong to take that much longer unless the DPS sucks, and if the DPS sucks then the tank shouldn't be chain-pulling in the first place because that's going to stress both them and the healer. LeonKyeh can write out all the defensives available but that 10% reduction from Reprisal isn't going to help a lot when the tank is still taking a beating from a dozen mobs because bad DPS hasn't thinned out the pack yet.

Naturally, the DPS is going to suck if all one of the DPS is doing is running back and forth to pulling mobs instead of letting the tank pull to get aggro properly so the mobs are grouped together for AoEing effectively. Imagine how much quicker engaged mobs would died if you had stayed to AoE them instead of wasting 10-15 seconds running around looking for more.

Server ticks are an awkward things, especially for those with higher ping. Let me pull as tank and I can tell if my AoE has hit all the targets properly. It doesn't always happen. There are times when one gets missed even though from my perspective it was the one closest to me. Thank you, bad server communication.

If you pull as DPS and they're following you in a string past me as you run behind, my AoE isn't going to hit them all. If you're left with something beating on you because you ran past me and they didn't get caught in my AoE, that's your problem. You can be smart and run it back to me so I can pick it up with my AoE, or you can take the beating. Me trying to run around after you to get the strays only makes things that much harder for the rest of the party. None of us can AoE effectively if the mobs are getting moved around and scattered to save your sorry butt and the healer may even feel obligated to stop their own DPS to heal you. There goes DPS even lower.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's not gong to take that much longer unless the DPS sucks, and if the DPS sucks then the tank shouldn't be chain-pulling in the first place because that's going to stress both them and the healer. LeonKyeh can write out all the defensives available but that 10% reduction from Reprisal isn't going to help a lot when the tank is still taking a beating from a dozen mobs because bad DPS hasn't thinned out the pack yet.

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While it depends on the dungeon, the higher up you go, the more time can be shaved off. 10 minutes is entirely reasonable even if you took the exact same players into two separate dungeon runs, one where you single pull and one where you W2W. Furthermore, at higher levels, the stress on tanks is negligible. Warrior and Paladin are completely unkillable at 81+. So much, they can literally solo dungeons themselves. Hell, Warrior was doing that in Shadowbringer before Bloodwhetting was even a thing. There's a reason spamming Expert with a pre-made of Warrior + three DPS was (and still is) popular. A single pulling tank takes so little damage, the role is entirely useless in such a situation. A Melee with bloodbath can handle three mobs without breaking a sweat.

Now I do agree that DPS/Healers who pull are responsible for bringing the mobs back to the tank. If they die due to running around in a panic, that's on them. You won't see any arguments against that mentality. It's when they do corral the mobs and literally stand on the tank who promptly refuses to AoE because their ego was bruised is when people take issue.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

While it depends on the dungeon, the higher up you go, the more time can be shaved off. 10 minutes is entirely reasonable even if you took the exact same players into two separate dungeon runs, one where you single pull and one where you W2W. Furthermore, at higher levels, the stress on tanks is negligible. Warrior and Paladin are completely unkillable at 81+. So much, they can literally solo dungeons themselves. Hell, Warrior was doing that in Shadowbringer before Bloodwhetting was even a thing. There's a reason spamming Expert with a pre-made of Warrior + three DPS was (and still is) popular. A single pulling tank takes so little damage, the role is entirely useless in such a situation. A Melee with bloodbath can handle three mobs without breaking a sweat.

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And yet that DPS running off by themselves is still a DPS loss for the group because they aren't doing any. It's a DPS loss when the mobs are scattered to different enmity targets so AoEs aren't hitting everything - mobs that are scattered because they pulled instead of letting the tank pull so everything comes to them.

In the long run, nothing is gained when the DPS goes on an ego trip.

Maybe just have a conversation with the tank in the first place? "Hey, I think this is a good group and we'll be fine if you pull more at the same time" instead unilaterally deciding to run off to get more? Most tanks will cooperate if you are polite about it. They're going to dig in their heels when you're being a jerk about it. That's human nature.

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Originally Posted by Chiharu_Sakurai

If the DPS is getting annoyed at a single pull tank, its because they could be wiping out 2-3 packs of trash in the same amount of time as the ONE trash, while the healer (SCH/SGE mostly) is sitting there on most of their CDs because nothing is even coming close to hurting the tank.
<snip etc etc etc>

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While I might agree that I prefer wall-to-wall pulls and killing 2-3 sets of mobs vs just 1... if I'm going to exhibit the attitude you have, I would just go play a console game where I can control the other NPCs.

Other players aren't NPCs. If someone wants every dungeon to be played a certain way, every time, then go play a solo console game.