Summoner rework is a huge dissapointment

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Yeah I agree they should make you choose between Bahamut and Phoenix only to give more control to Phoenix's support capabilities. I really see no reason for the current, rigid cycle of Bahamut to Phoenix anymore unless they just want them to have a fair chance being used at the same amount.

That'll also give us more opportunities to get a 3rd Demi summon in the future, meaning more choices. SMN right now and during Shadowbringers is just too rigid.

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I'd rather have Aetherflow (the action) back to be honest. That would fix the rigidity issue in a heartbeat. Have it grant access to Trances, Aetherflow stacks, the Avatar Gems, and Further Ruin. Problem solved. It's one of the major advantages that older iterations (ARR-SB, and Bahamut during ShB) had that gets underlooked a lot.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

I'd rather have Aetherflow (the action) back to be honest. That would fix the rigidity issue in a heartbeat. Have it grant access to Trances, Aetherflow stacks, the Avatar Gems, and Further Ruin. Problem solved. It's one of the major advantages that older iterations (ARR-SB, and Bahamut during ShB) had that gets underlooked a lot.

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Yeah. I was going to suggest that on the same post but I thought I was being too repetitive about how I miss old Aetherflow lol. It's really the source of flexibility and plentiful optimization about old SMN.

I wonder if they turn carbuncle into just flavor and have him auto attack your current target, similar to how phoenix and bahamut behave, dealing nonexistent damage (like 10 potency). Summoning him, would give you “searing light ready”. Radiant aegis would be a summoner ability.

Summoning phoenix would have a similar effect, where it would give you “rekindle ready” for 2 minutes.

This would turn rekindle into a real ability instead of what it currently is. It would also take away most of carbuncle’s jank.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I wonder if they turn carbuncle into just flavor and have him auto attack your current target, similar to how phoenix and bahamut behave, dealing nonexistent damage (like 10 potency). Summoning him, would give you “searing light ready”. Radiant aegis would be a summoner ability.

Summoning phoenix would have a similar effect, where it would give you “rekindle ready” for 2 minutes.

This would turn rekindle into a real ability instead of what it currently is. It would also take away most of carbuncle’s jank.

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I'll be honest, I feel Phoenix is an issue... Phoenix support is simply impractical and too rigid. Why is RDM so valuable on the first 30 seconds of P1S is because Magick Barrier is within your control. Hell, I even raise 3 people in 10 seconds during blind prog and we saw further because RDM support is just that good. I get Why Phoenix does more damage but it further shows it makes little sense.
- Phoenix is 80 and Bahamut 70, Phoenix was lesset DPS than Bahamut so you'd get a damage loss so they fixed it by just giving damage to Phoenix. This concept is a flaw in terms of lore. You make Phoenix stronger because it wouldn't make sense but Bahamut is, quite literally, the 7th calamity in your lore and provides more destruction.

I'll briefly open the door on the subject or Summoner lore. But Summons are usually 2 kind of Summons. Supportive and Offensive.
- Carbuncle and Phoenix are supportive
- Ifrit, Titan, Garuda and Phoenix are offensive

Does that make Phoenix weaker in a raid fight? No, it means thematically, you'll have healing mechanics because Phoenix represents flame and rebirth. I mean, P3S has some unique healing mechanics.

So why a supportive themed Summon outperform an offensive themed Summon? That makes no sense. It was a huge let down to see Dreadwyrm Trance gone and merged onto Bahamut. Why Everlasting Flight and Rekindle locked behidn time windows? Of course, because we can do Summon Phoenix which, on paper, is a Bahamut reskin with different damage values. Why not have Phoenix Ability themed skills like an instant raise with a CD, Rekindle, Everylasting FLight that could be some sort of Assize like ability with charges so it's a flex button between the choice of DPS or support. I know it'd be mainly use for DPS option but that's just Assize in general. I get some people would be disappointed in losing Summon Phoenix but if the idea we can't use these abilities is because we should use them on Summon Phoenix. Can... we just have Bahamut on a 60s. We could have Trance back but have it Phoenix themed? I know some people would be bumped out that Summon Phoenix isn't a thing anymore but honestly a lot of people are bumped out they don't have a Trance window now.

I do think we need some sort of Trance/Aetherflow mechanic back. Gameplay should always be the main priority of a job. Esthetic is important but if I can't enjoy to the point I'd rather play another job because of gameplay; that means it's a failure in general. Not complete failure, I do think some of the new changes are a nice beginning. Personally, my idea of rework and the elemental Summons was that the Summon G/I/T themselves was gonna be a pretty long cast (5s cast with 4s recast). The idea behind would be to charge the Summon and regardless that you finish the cast or not, the Summon still goes on and based on the time spent, you'd get a multiplier. Not only that'd be unique to Summoner but that's bring a lot of value to Spell Speed. Summoners always had longer casts on Summon in the history of the game anyways. That would also put some movement restriction which this part was thrown out of the window when SMN rework was made.

I don't know, maybe I'm just full on copium but the lack of communication from the dev teams on the SMN rework is really killing it for me.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I don't know, maybe I'm just full on copium but the lack of communication from the dev teams on the SMN rework is really killing it for me.

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I think you’re just at the point I was when the rework was revealed. I spotted the red flags with the Avatars using the Resummon mechanic immediately. The micro phases were just an extra layer of padding on top of that.

I’ve since moved on to NIN (which I am enjoying), but I do miss the old versions of Summoner dearly. None were perfect but most were better. I don’t think this rework has any staying power so I’m not surprised by the lack of feedback from SE. They’re probably just as torn as we are. We need to actually get a video out on the nitty gritty technical details and why they’re a problem if we’re going to get useful changes in the long run. In the short term (within this expansion) it’s just going to suck. And it absolutely has good reasons to be held in check unless SE nerfs those aspects out of relevance.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

I think you’re just at the point I was when the rework was revealed. I spotted the red flags with the Avatars using the Resummon mechanic immediately. The micro phases were just an extra layer of padding on top of that.

I’ve since moved on to NIN (which I am enjoying), but I do miss the old versions of Summoner dearly. None were perfect but most were better. I don’t think this rework has any staying power so I’m not surprised by the lack of feedback from SE. They’re probably just as torn as we are. We need to actually get a video out on the nitty gritty technical details and why they’re a problem if we’re going to get useful changes in the long run. In the short term (within this expansion) it’s just going to suck. And it absolutely has good reasons to be held in check unless SE nerfs those aspects out of relevance.

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Well, yeah. If you take all the esthetic then SMN is quite simple. You wouldn't notice right away if you were a 80 SMN at 6.0 launch but it was a huge miss when you'd level SMN and from 70 to 80 you'd "gain" Phoenix which traded 500 potency for an automatic Medica II and Rekindle. They since fixed Phoenix by adding more power than Bahamut. Imho, SMN just collapses at 70. Yeah, Trance and Summon Bahamut are merged together now but you still gain new mechanics from 60 to 70. From 70 to 90, the only mechanics you gain are Elemental Summon Aetherflows which is just 1 button you'll use over Ruin III spam. SMN gets nothing special from 70 to 90. It's a stagnant learning curve for the job, rigid and impractical in raids. It does look pretty! I sure to like blinding myself in P3S when I need to figure if I'm stacking or spreading. I have a macro on my bars, I can because I have so many available buttons, it represents what I feel about SMN;

https://i.imgur.com/aeDE7Y9.png

Now, this is a joke. People find it funny but it also reflects some sort of truth because I've killed people in my groups for having my summons to big.

I also think we've all got different opinions of what should be done to help SMN but I'm sure am glad we all agree that SMN gameplay is just the worst.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Now, this is a joke. People find it funny but it also reflects some sort of truth because I've killed people in my groups for having my summons to big.

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Just a minor clarification here, but the petsize commands are player specific. That is to say, your petsize setting doesn't affect other people, they need to set petsize to small themselves and it'll change how they specifically see every summoner they interact with.

I am curious has se or any community representative responded officially about the smn changes and all the concerned threads about the drastic changes ? And if the very low dps is indeed intended ?

You are not entitled to a "community representative response" just because you're upset about a rework that was 8 years overdue, goodness. They might briefly touch on buffs to Summoner during the part 1 6.1 LL in March, if even that. Keep your expectations reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Just a minor clarification here, but the petsize commands are player specific. That is to say, your petsize setting doesn't affect other people, they need to set petsize to small themselves and it'll change how they specifically see every summoner they interact with.

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It’s just another problem to add to the pile at this point.

I remain adamant that the future of the job is Carby being made a permanent fixture of the core rotation. The Avatars need to be reworked so that they don’t require a pet resummon to work, which invariably means they have to be represented as spells (think Dissidia Yuna) or pet actions if we want them to work. I think that’s doable if we make Carbuncle a ranged pet. Melee pets just plain suck, but SCH’s fairy does work perfectly if you use /place, so borrowing Garuda/Emerald from ShB will work as a baseline. And if Carby is the actual caster or we both contribute to Summoning the Avatars then even better.

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Originally Posted by XmissionsX

I am curious has se or any community representative responded officially about the smn changes and all the concerned threads about the drastic changes ? And if the very low dps is indeed intended ?

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You can reduce pet size but if you keep your party members visual effects, you'll get flash bang on every summon lol.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

You are not entitled to a "community representative response" just because you're upset about a rework that was 8 years overdue, goodness. They might briefly touch on buffs to Summoner during the part 1 6.1 LL in March, if even that. Keep your expectations reasonable.

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I'm not to SMN specifically but I believe the community should know why MNK got the same fire power buff than MCH. When they were doing 1k more. There's like 20 threads on this forum about how SMN is an issue. The silence, is a problem. 6.08 was the perfect opportunity to give some insurance and it only made it worst.

I don't expect anything. I'm already playing something else because I don't expect SMN to get fixed until 7.0. I'm just being very realist that this is Melee Fantasy & Black Mage XIV. Because that's what the long silence and buffs are telling me right now.

*Edit*

This isn't just for Summoner. Machinist and White Mage are in pretty bad spots right now. Red Mage isn't faring better and Ranged Physical is the least played job because nobody wants to play a weak archetype. So yeah, if there was news on what they're planning to do, maybe people would stick to the suffering.

Hoping to get answers at the live letter in a few weeks. Honestly I couldn’t care less about their “planned content for the next 10 years”.

I want them to at least admit that SMN damage is low because they have rez, and mobility.

The upcoming live letter is explicitly about the future of FFXIV as a whole for the next ten years-it is not the place for discussions on job balancing which changes from patch to patch or in some cases expansion to expansion. We can expect a lot of fluff and discussion about potential themes or locations they want to explore and what characters will be joining us, or possibly technical or systemic upgrades they plan to do. Doubtless this will not stop people from spamming twitch chat asking for things like Viera hair or Dark Knight reworks, but I suppose that's to be expected.

The live letter where they will touch on the topic if they so choose is the 6.1 part 1 live letter, likely happening in March. Perhaps they might even leave that until the part 2 live letter, who knows. Silence is the way they have always chosen to operate, for better or for worse. No one had any expectation of male Viera happening until they popped out of literally nowhere in the last fanfest, nor was I expecting Summoner to receive a rework at all until they came out and explained everything during the job changes live letter.

In any case, I do not foresee any drastic changes coming in the near future. Reasonable improvements that won't disrupt the fun that the majority are now having could happen, and reversions back to what clearly wasn't working are not. Adjustments to Summoner's Raise will happen one way or the other, though I believe they will at some point delete it from our kit in favor of something else. I expect to see more streamlining of jobs in the future, hopefully Samurai gets some of its button bloat taken care of at last and Bard can finally become a real Bard instead of a mystic archer, but I'm not expecting any of that until 7.0.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

You are not entitled to a "community representative response" just because you're upset about a rework that was 8 years overdue, goodness.

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You're not entitled to having any of your BS taken seriously in any single thread you post in, but here you are again.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I want them to at least admit that SMN damage is low because they have rez, and mobility.

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Isn't it common sense though? Why would a party pick any other job if they can pick a job with a raise, heals, instant casts and a long range, who can attack from anywhere in the arena while moving and still do good damage? SMN should be at the bottom with RDM.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Isn't it common sense though? Why would a party pick any other job if they can pick a job with a raise, heals, instant casts and a long range, who can attack from anywhere in the arena while moving and still do good damage? SMN should be at the bottom with RDM.

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1. Because the 1% role bonus will always insure that everyone is represented.

2. Because mobility, healing and raise means absolutely nothing to most parties after 2 or 3 weeks of progression (if that). You don't balance a job based on how it plays when everyone is at there worst.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

1. Because the 1% role bonus will always insure that everyone is represented.

2. Because mobility, healing and raise means absolutely nothing to most parties after 2 or 3 weeks of progression (if that). You don't balance a job based on how it plays when everyone is at there worst.

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You only need 3 jobs to get the bonus. What about the 4th dps slot? Why should a job that can't save a run have lower dps than a job who can? All jobs should be close to each other but someone has to be at the bottom and it should be the jobs with the best utility.

Well then I look forward to the reactions on the 18th/19th when some of the more frequent Summoner complainers are shocked to discover that the purpose of the live letter was to discuss literally everything else except job balancing. The option to acknowledge the present reality remains an option, however.

The only time I can remember where *forum* outrage along with outrage across all other social media sites was when male Viera weren't revealed and the playerbase was surprised with Hrothgar instead. They responded to that fairly quickly given that a 1000-liked post on a support thread popped up out of nowhere, the numbers of which aren't seen here.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I get Why Phoenix does more damage but it further shows it makes little sense.
- Phoenix is 80 and Bahamut 70, Phoenix was lesset DPS than Bahamut so you'd get a damage loss so they fixed it by just giving damage to Phoenix. This concept is a flaw in terms of lore. You make Phoenix stronger because it wouldn't make sense but Bahamut is, quite literally, the 7th calamity in your lore and provides more destruction.

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Leaving the rest of your post aside because that has some good ideas and points, there is just as much a valid lore reason for Pheonix to be more powerful than Bahamut. Pheonix is the primal that literally blew a hole through Bahamut's chest, as Louisouix became the Pheonix primal and defeated Bahamut. Bahamut only was able to bring Pheonix under its control because Loisoux thought the battle was won and relinquished his control of the power, and Bahamut used the last vestiges of it's power to latch onto the Pheonix aether and temper him.

Now leaving the lore aside I do agree that Summoner's support kit needs some reworking. Making Radiant Aegis, Everlasting Flight, Rekindle all useable at any moment within the fight would remove a lot of Frustration and provide a nice little bit of fun to the job. I personally would also love for Radiant Aegis to gain a 3rd Charge and be useable around not just self, but other Party Members, as that would provide for some great opportunities to assist the raid with. (This all being said it does have the side effect of absolutely just making healers matter even less, but that's an entire other conversation).

A rework to Resurrections for RDM and SMN (or outright removal) is also long overdue and desparately needed. If it does stay around. Then an instant cast 2 minute long cooldown would probably be the best bet. I also wouldn't mind some additional flavor added on with maybe a reskin of the spell to be Pheonix like, as the bird literally is all about Ressurection, some fire and feathers springing forth when you use it would be cool.

All this would of course also need something given to Pheonix to make up for the loss of Rekindle, and simply put the only option is another oGCD attack, and you would want to at least try to not just hand it another Revelation, death flare, akh morn, attack dropping from the sky. This would require an animation change which we know only happens during expansions, but I wouldn't mind this being the spot that Summoner get's its first line AoE to represent the rush mechanics in Turn 12, Scorched Pinion.

Do all this and up the oGCD count as well and SMN will feel much better. Get back to 2 Akh Morns/Revelations during the trance phase, get aetherflow back to a 30 second cooldown. Maybe also bring back Pheonix 1-2 GCD combo. I fully admit I do preffer this version of Summoner over Shadowbringers, which I absolutely loathed, but I'm also not blind to the issues. The job needs more, and I think the oGCD department is where it starts. It feels very much like Stormblood Red Mage to me, very bare and simplistic and just missing things, like the dev team was worried that if they put in too much mechanics they'd have nothing to give in the future. Which hey if it follows the same track then I guess we have a near perfect job in 8.0, because while it took them nearly 5 years, Red Mage finally feels truly perfected. Although I wouldn't begrudge anyone for thinking that is too long (cause it is.)

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Originally Posted by Reinha

You only need 3 jobs to get the bonus. What about the 4th dps slot? Why should a job that can't save a run have lower dps than a job who can? All jobs should be close to each other but someone has to be at the bottom and it should be the jobs with the best utility.

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I'm sorry but why should they be? Why should the best utility jobs be near the bottom? That's such an arbitrary reason, just as arbitrary as saying, the best mobility, or the easiest rotation, or the least amount of party synergy mechanics. And also is not one that's easily quantified. Reaper has great utility. Monk has solid utility. Hell I would say that both Black Mage and Samurai have more 'utility' then Machinist, yet if you were to suddenly put Machinist damage on par with theirs, I'm sure you get massive blow back from a good part of the community.

The community doesn't even agree on what makes up utility. Some say it's anything that contributes to buffing the damage, mitigation, or healing of others. Some say that damage shouldn't be included in that. Some say its bringing any ability that makes the job of others easier. Balancing around such a nebulous statistic only causes issues.

And also your question still doesn't address the problem of "What happens when the run doesnt need to be saved?" aka 90% of the time we play this game. After a few weeks, almost every piece of content in this game becomes trivial, save ultimate. When that utility means absolutely nothing, it should no longer be factored into balance.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

Why should the best utility jobs be near the bottom?

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So that other jobs bring something useful too, such as higher damage. That's how balancing works. Not "let's give this one job every tool in the book and top tier damage so that they can have a guaranteed spot during progression AND farm".

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Well then I look forward to the reactions on the 18th/19th when some of the more frequent Summoner complainers are shocked to discover that the purpose of the live letter was to discuss literally everything else except job balancing. The option to acknowledge the present reality remains an option, however.

The only time I can remember where *forum* outrage along with outrage across all other social media sites was when male Viera weren't revealed and the playerbase was surprised with Hrothgar instead. They responded to that fairly quickly given that a 1000-liked post on a support thread popped up out of nowhere, the numbers of which aren't seen here.

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I'm not excepting them to talk about job balancing but I am hoping. Also, you are wrong about one thing. The next LL isn't just going to them talking about their 10 year plan, that is just one part of the next LL. There is going to be a Q&A part of the LL also and there is a chance for them to take questions from this forum that involves job balancing. You doing just as much assuming like the rest of us when you say they won't talk about job balancing since no one really knows what is going to be talked about or what questions they are going to answer during the Q&A. You know what they say about assuming right?

With all due respect, they are more likely to answer questions about whether it is lore-appropriate to eat the sandwiches made for us by the Crystal Exarch as opposed to answering any questions of actual substance. That was one moment I'll never forget back from one of the Shadowbringers Q&As. Direct questions about pressing issues are one thing they will almost certainly pass over in favor of less controversial topics, much to the frustration of pretty much everyone, myself included.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

With all due respect, they are more likely to answer questions about whether it is lore-appropriate to eat the sandwiches made for us by the Crystal Exarch as opposed to answering any questions of actual substance. That was one moment I'll never forget back from one of the Shadowbringers Q&As. Direct questions about pressing issues are one thing they will almost certainly pass over in favor of less controversial topics, much to the frustration of pretty much everyone, myself included.

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Again assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. You may be right and they won't talk about the things we want to hear but that shouldn't stop us talking about it in threads like this and others. If we do then things will never change and we continue down this line of the devs not talking about the state of job heath. No matter what we need to continue having conversations so we can tell the devs that this is the stuff we want to hear. Making assumptions like you are will never help push this message forward. As I said if they don't talk about job balance doing the LL that's fine at least I know these conversations will continue on this forum in hopes one day they change their minds on sharing job balance info with us.

I believe a big part of why summoner feels this..."simplistic" is again due to the box Square Enix has coded themselves into as far as their game design. Where as in other final fantasy games summoner had more factors to worry about than just their dps that made being a summoner feel powerful and a very nice and versatile damage support (or even a 1vALL carpet-bombing dps depending on how ya built em).
Summoner had to deal with enemy status effects,
knowing what each of your summons did,
mana management and learning to save your MP for the right moment,
knowing what your enemy did because most likely you have a summon in your arsenals to counter that specific attack, but your needed to know what it is,
and not to mention Elemental weaknesses (one of the cornerstones of a Final fantasy game, and yet a simultaneous disappointment burried within this game.

all this on top of the fact that ff14 summoner has only 5 summons, 3-4 of which functionally do the same thing.
there is no CHOICE, like there is with other final fantasy games summoners.

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Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

all this on top of the fact that ff14 summoner has only 5 summons, 3-4 of which functionally do the same thing.
there is no CHOICE, like there is with other final fantasy games summoners.

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It's really, really ironic that aveyond has spent weeks trying to push their nerdcred about Final Fantasy "summoner" when they keep ignoring this very basic thing about this concept from the series in general. Coincidentally, many "summoners" throughout the series didn't just rely on their summons, they also often had access to a wide range of spells, far wider than three-shades-of-ruin. And if they didn't naturally have these abilities, players could choose to expand on their ability sets themselves.

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Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

Again assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. You may be right and they won't talk about the things we want to hear but that shouldn't stop us talking about it in threads like this and others.

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Their entire gimmick has been to pretend that they are the REPRESENTATIVE of all people who love ruin mage and they have stated openly that they will be there to oppose any criticism of the job no matter where it surfaces.

If they're the representative, that doesn't say very good things about the people they claim to speak for.

I'm sure the near-constant belittling and general negative mood must have done wonders for the cause of the "complexity!" lovers who would see reversions or meaningless busywork tacked on to Summoner again for no reason as opposed to meaningful additions or near-universally agreed upon potential improvements-you have the right to advocate for it all you like. Fortunately with this many jobs I can easily bounce around to whatever isn't feeling horrible to play, much like I did during the state of Summoner during Shadowbringers.

If they decide to go backwards, I can move on to better things. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for certain old SMN mains. In regards to who I speak for and what I ultimately want, give me the missing summons whether as glam, gem summons, or demis and I'm good. I like the rework and if you can give me more things that feel good to do-fantastic. Do not give me random things to do that have nothing to do with the job I'm playing.

No wonder they threw the old job into the trash can and gave up on it, I cannot imagine how taxing it must be to beholden to certain style of gameplay that seems nearly impossible to get "perfect" and will inadvertently have faults found no matter what direction things go in. If I had to choose between building a job around casual/middle of the road players or the complexity crowd, I know which one will be easier to deal with. The additional difficulty you want is right there in Savage and Extreme, if you want intensity then there it is. If Savage and Extreme are too easy for you then I am sorry that the game cannot exclusively cater to the top 0.05% of players. As it stands now the likeliest addition is a Scouting melee and a physical Ranged dps, the caster role is unlikely to have new additions in the vein of old SMN until 8.0.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

I'm sorry but why should they be? Why should the best utility jobs be near the bottom? That's such an arbitrary reason, just as arbitrary as saying, the best mobility, or the easiest rotation, or the least amount of party synergy mechanics. And also is not one that's easily quantified. Reaper has great utility. Monk has solid utility. Hell I would say that both Black Mage and Samurai have more 'utility' then Machinist, yet if you were to suddenly put Machinist damage on par with theirs, I'm sure you get massive blow back from a good part of the community.

The community doesn't even agree on what makes up utility. Some say it's anything that contributes to buffing the damage, mitigation, or healing of others. Some say that damage shouldn't be included in that. Some say its bringing any ability that makes the job of others easier. Balancing around such a nebulous statistic only causes issues.

And also your question still doesn't address the problem of "What happens when the run doesnt need to be saved?" aka 90% of the time we play this game. After a few weeks, almost every piece of content in this game becomes trivial, save ultimate. When that utility means absolutely nothing, it should no longer be factored into balance.

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I would say utility is any non-damage contribution that helps the group. Healing, rezzing, interrupts, mitigation, etc. Most damage buffs are included in rdps, saying they count as utility is just a different (and less clear) way of comparing rdps vs adps.

As for which jobs should be higher or lower, I'd look at it this way:

1. If two jobs have exactly the same potential output but one offers something the other doesn't, why would you play the job that offers nothing? Downplay it all you want an advantage is an advantage, even in a seasoned group people can screw up, having an extra rez is nice. Clearing a little faster is also nice, neither is that big of a deal for a good group, it's more a matter of preference.

How much having a rez should cost I can't say but it should cost something. Balance is most important for prog, afterwards when people have experience and better gear it doesn't matter as much who has a rez and who doesn't, nor does it matter as much who deals more damage, you're getting the clear regardless.

2. Same goes for ease of play. If two jobs have the same potential output but one can be executed with a single macro while running around as much as you like while the other requires the group working around you to make sure you're able to keep dpsing, fun factor aside there's no reason to play the difficult job and those who do because they enjoy it will likely end up discouraged.

Imo jobs should not be balanced around max potential for this reason, nor should they be balanced around the worst players as that will create too large of a disparity at the top. Finding that magic number where the most people are satisfied is the hard part.

3. Jobs that buff the group can only ever be as good as the whole group. Their max potential rdps is higher by nature but their lows are also lower, the more buff-centric the job the more their own rdps is out of their control.

SMNs offer a good amount of utility: Free healing for the group + a targeted heal every 2 minutes that doesn't come at the cost of dps, a decent self shield every 30s, and the ability to rez which only one other dps can do. They are extremely mobile and ranged with an incredibly straight-forward rotation that's almost impossible to mess up - it doesn't always do well with downtime but that's a design problem more than a numbers problem. And they have a raid buff. It makes sense to me that their adps would be among the lowest.

Their rdps is dependent on the group making good use of their buff which thanks to its long duration is not difficult to do resulting in less variance compared to Ninja for example which would result in SMN's max potential rdps being lower while their low end should be higher.

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

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I see people say that sometimes, where utility is everything that is not dam related but here is the thing do we know for sure the dev balance around that definition of utility? Shoot I personally don't think they use rdps since that is technically a form of measurement that site that should not be named used. I might be wrong but didn't rdps start there in the first place? Just because you believe utility is not related to dam buffs doesn't mean the devs do, if so why is nin always near the bottom of the melee? What utility other than TA does it bring to a party that makes it have the lowest rdps among the melee. The point is if the utility doesn't include buffs like TA, AC, SL, Embolden, and ect then why is nin being taxed so hard compared to other melees who have more healing/mitigation utility like mnk and rpr?

Also on the smn healing utility show me an example everlasting flight or rekindle come useful in current fights that don't just lead to overhealing because they land during times the healing isn't necessarily? SMN so call utility is too depends on its rotation. You as the smn have no say in when or where to use it. Do you know what I can do as a rdm right now? Ask my healers when they want magick barrier, I can't do that for either everlasting flight or rekindle. So I wouldn't call smn's utility good XD

Both SMN and RDM are honestly in a weird spot when it comes to utility, because what they can provide can mostly be useless after the progression phase. They have the heals and the raising while the only thing that always remains relevant is the damage party buff.

And then the Raise 'issue'. Personally I'm on the side that thinks that DPS Raise is not as great of utility people make it out to be, especially with people on these forums. I still remember BLMs getting so upset over it lol. There's many disadvantages to Raising like costing so much MP (to be fair isn't much of an issue anymore), wasting a GCD to use it and having an extremely long cast time which is not a problem to RDM, but is a problem to SMN now because Swiftcast is pretty much integrated to your rotation.

While I admit there still needs to be more disasvantages like maybe getting a damage debuff from using it, but Raise is so niche that I really don't think RDM and SMN should be at the very bottom because of it.

Also the mobility argument again. Shadowbringers and Endwalker has made so many jobs mobile. Even BLM, the antithesis of mobility, is extremely mobile these days. Granted I haven't touched the current savage content to really be credible about this, I still don't think this argument holds much water anymore.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Raise is so niche that I really don't think RDM and SMN should be at the very bottom because of it.

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Then who should be? Raise is literally the best utility spell among damage dealers. I challenge you people downplaying it to name another one that is better.

And it doesn't matter if Raise is useless after progression (as if people never die anymore lol), because what is good for farming after prog is not a good way to balance the jobs. Jobs should all bring something useful to the team when you are trying to clear, so that every player contributes and is able to play their chosen job in parties.

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

SMNs offer a good amount of utility: Free healing for the group + a targeted heal every minute that doesn't come at the cost of dps, a decent self shield every 30s, and the ability to rez which only one other dps can do. They are extremely mobile and ranged with an incredibly straight-forward rotation that's almost impossible to mess up - it doesn't always do well with downtime but that's a design problem more than a numbers problem. And they have a raid buff. It makes sense to me that their adps would be among the lowest.

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I think that smn heals are really situational: most of the time they're useless overheal, and single target heal it's not exactly free since you lose an attack. Phoenix already in shadowbringer had design problems and with endwalker they remained, if not worsened. Ress is useless outside progress or casual game but most important smn lacks ogcds to make the filler phase more interesting.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Then who should be? Raise is literally the best utility spell among damage dealers. I challenge you people downplaying it to name another one that is better.

And it doesn't matter if Raise is useless after progression (as if people never die anymore lol), because what is good for farming after prog is not a good way to balance the jobs. Jobs should all bring something useful to the team when you are trying to clear, so that every player contributes and is able to play their chosen job in parties.

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BRD and dancer should be at they bottom with the amount of damage utility they provide. No question.

Remove raise from dps, buff smn and rdm, and bring relevance back to Phoenix downs

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Then who should be? Raise is literally the best utility spell among damage dealers. I challenge you people downplaying it to name another one that is better.

And it doesn't matter if Raise is useless after progression (as if people never die anymore lol), because what is good for farming after prog is not a good way to balance the jobs. Jobs should all bring something useful to the team when you are trying to clear, so that every player contributes and is able to play their chosen job in parties.

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Raise has always been a problem for the caster role because it causes unbalance among the casters. Rdm is better at rez because of dualcast and became a meme as a rez mage back in SB and ShB since they were mostly taken for prog and drop afterward, smn can only rez once per min, and now with EW smn don't really want to rez at all bc swift cast is part of their rotation now, and blm has asked for a rez so they can be apart of prog more. Is raise really good? Yes, but it has caused a lot of problems for the caster role when it comes to filling that role in a party during prog and farming. Personally, I want one of two things to happen to the caster rez. One: just delete it from rdm and smn completely and buff them accordingly. That way we don't have these arguments about who is better for prog and farming among the casters. Or two: Nerf the rez to have a 1 to 2 min cooldown, make it a oGCD and instacast, and make it a role action. That way smn, rdm, and blm has the same type of rez at all time.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Then who should be? Raise is literally the best utility spell among damage dealers. I challenge you people downplaying it to name another one that is better.

And it doesn't matter if Raise is useless after progression (as if people never die anymore lol), because what is good for farming after prog is not a good way to balance the jobs. Jobs should all bring something useful to the team when you are trying to clear, so that every player contributes and is able to play their chosen job in parties.

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Dancer and Bard because their supports are up 100%?

Even though the DPS that Physical Ranged makes now is pretty unjustified, it makes sense to me that they're at the bottom while closely (emphasis on closely) next to the rest.

Idk what to tell you but Raise is great when used yes, but really not that good when it's also so niche. Not only that, healers get so bored with the amount of healing and mitigation tools they can offer these days (well except WHM now apparently) that it matters even less.

It's really funny because I'm pretty sure the Raise arguments started to appear when SMN powercrept as the highest DPS during SB days which is also unjustified. Now SMN's position in the meta is the most unfavorable its been and Raise isn't going to help it from that.

Also if I never pressed Raise once in a fight, should my DPS still suffer because of it? This is why they should just give SMN/RDM a damage debuff when they use it as compensation, so people would stop complaining about it.

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Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

Personally, I want one of two things to happen to the caster rez. One: just delete it from rdm and smn completely and buff them accordingly. That way we don't have these arguments about who is better for prog and farming among the casters. Or two: Nerf the rez to have a 1 to 2 min cooldown, make it a oGCD and instacast, and make it a role action. That way smn, rdm, and blm has the same type of rez at all time.

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I agree with these solutions. It could be an oGCD role action, but I'd say the cd should be longer than that so casters aren't solely responsible for raising. Maybe 5 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

BRD and dancer should be at they bottom with the amount of damage utility they provide. No question.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Dancer and Bard because their supports are up 100%?

Also if I never pressed Raise once in a fight, should my DPS still suffer because of it? This is why they should just give SMN/RDM a damage debuff when they use it as compensation, so people would stop complaining about it.

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Maybe I should have clarified that I was talking about rDPS, the total damage contribution that takes into account the damage caused from sharing buffs. DNC has two heals with long cooldowns and BRD has Esuna-lite and a healing buff. If the argument is that a Raise is not useful because healers are powerful and constantly bored, then extra heals are even less useful. They can't save a run if healers die, but a Raise can. Jobs in the ranged role don't even offer TP and MP anymore.

Even if you never press Raise during the whole fight, the point is you still have it. Why take a BRD or DNC as a 4th dps when SMN does equal or more damage (rDPS), is equally mobile but is also able to recover a run when it's needed? Other jobs need to provide something that makes up for their lack of utility, and that something has typically been higher dps.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I agree with these solutions. It could be an oGCD role action, but I'd say the cd should be longer than that so casters aren't solely responsible for raising. Maybe 5 minutes.

Maybe I should have clarified that I was talking about rDPS, the total damage contribution that takes into account the damage caused from sharing buffs. DNC has two heals with long cooldowns and BRD has Esuna-lite and a healing buff. If the argument is that a Raise is not useful because healers are powerful and constantly bored, then extra heals are even less useful. They can't save a run if healers die, but a Raise can. Jobs in the ranged role don't even offer TP and MP anymore.

Even if you never press Raise during the whole fight, the point is you still have it. Why take a BRD or DNC as a 4th dps when SMN does equal or more damage (rDPS), is equally mobile but is also able to recover a run when it's needed? Other jobs need to provide something that makes up for their lack of utility, and that something has typically been higher dps.

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I think at this point we all understand what you are saying, we just don't agree. I just don't view the ability to save a run IF things go wrong as that massive of an ability. Especially since the actual use of said resurrections already comes with very real trade offs (Both jobs taking a hit to their DPS, loss of a mobility tool, and the weakness to the player being rezzed). It's balancing around the idea of the lowest common denominator, aka, the worst players. Which is just not how balance should be done.

If the devs are balancing with that in mind then I'd rather they just axe the rez entirely from the caster role and only allow healers to be in charge of it. Heck they removed mana shift and refresh from the Casters and Ranged DPS to give healers some level of agency, just do it with this too.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Then who should be? Raise is literally the best utility spell among damage dealers. I challenge you people downplaying it to name another one that is better.

And it doesn't matter if Raise is useless after progression (as if people never die anymore lol), because what is good for farming after prog is not a good way to balance the jobs. Jobs should all bring something useful to the team when you are trying to clear, so that every player contributes and is able to play their chosen job in parties.

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Problem there is that preventing people from dying in the first place is generally superior to picking them up after. Therefore, mitigation tends to be preferred. And what does RDM have over SMN in addition to being able to raise more freely? A mitigation. Why would anyone bring SMN when RDM has more utility and equivalent if not superior damage.

To be honest I didn't remember Raise being made an issue at all back then. Even with Bard's quite low personal DPS, it was a sought-after job because it was simply the best support in the game during ARR to SB. In rDPS it was around SMN's level too. SMN did really good DPS and didn't get a party buff until SB, which it compensated for.

It's when the DPS disparity started to expand, and the few times it power-crept BLM was when people started to talk about it. As long as there's not much of a disparity along with making them worth bringing to parties in the first place then I don't think it'll be an issue anymore, because right now they aren't worth bringing much. Like I said, that Raise on SMN isn't saving it from its current position in the meta, and BRD/DNC are a different role and get a bonus for it and even they're having problems so it's not even worth comparing them to each other.