Tank healing is to high

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Yeah like I said before. Bloodwhetting is pretty gimp on a single target...I don't know why some are emphasizing tank healing is broken.

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Bloodwhetting is broke at both ends. Its heal is damn near 8 seconds of invulnerability in AoE and barely a trickle in ST. The percent of damage dealt as per 5.x Nascent, though it obliged us to sync our CDs and spenders to it, struck a far better balance.

Dungeons are undertuned, yes, obviously, but negligent designs like flat heals per hit are an issue, too.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Bloodwhetting is broke at both ends. Its heal is damn near 8 seconds of invulnerability in AoE and barely a trickle in ST. The percent of damage dealt as per 5.x Nascent, though it obliged us to sync our CDs and spenders to it, struck a far better balance.

Dungeons are undertuned, yes, obviously, but negligent designs like flat heals per hit are an issue, too.

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I grant it to Extreme Trials too, Healers can almost completely ignore the tanks need.

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Originally Posted by Crossu

The game teaches you that your role as a healer is make sure that the party doesn't die, one way to ensure that is by killing the enemies, the Hall of the Novice even teaches you that, the healer quests instance needs you to do DPS and Heal your allies in order to complete it.

Devs said healers should try to deal damage as well instead instead of focusing in only healing.

I find the healing job the most enjoyable by far because I HAVE to balance damage and healing.

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I do not think anyone is arguing against that. Right now though the parity is almost all damage and no healing. I have all of these wonderful shields, aoes, single target OCD heals, and plenty of ways to heal and mitigate damage, and well instead some people want me to shut up and spam broil almost entirely? That is atrocious game design for encounters to be that way. I want to be a healer and not a one-button DPS with 75% the DPS of a real damage dealer and all of these heals that are not even needed. The best way to rectify is to take steps that make use of those resources which would be redesigning mechanics to require more healing, weakening aoe heals and all these burst cooldowns heals and reducing self-sustain of non healers if it turns out to be too powerful in savage.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

You're legit complaining about self-sustain in the lowest possible denominator of content...dungeons that mean absolutely nothing apart from a means to get exp or get tomes as quick as possible, period. So what if tanks can recover a healer screwing up and saving a dungeon boss, "oh the humanity!" even though Paladin has been doing this for the last four years. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

you will need to wait until normal mode raids come out, or even more preferably Savage before you can even remotely get close to a baseline average to see how tanks are actually performing, as dungeon content is no way remotely close to a means to balancing jobs.

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Tanks have been able to pull through on normal mode raids too without healers in some instances. You're basically collecting tomes and gear drops from savage raids, which are then invalidated by crafting the next savage teir. With that said, I don't see your point other than the fact that dungeons are easy. Which SE could give into players asking for harder dungeons that could be meaningful content, thus changing up the meta. His on the other hand points out a larger issue in the fact that power creep is slowly starting to take over Tanks, which in some cases edges out an entire 3rd of the classes. 3dps + 1 tank runs aren't really new though, but the fact that these dungeons have probably been some of the easiest pulls in the history of the game speaks volumes.

With that said. OP MSQ dungeons are made to be solo dungeons as seen by the trusts and are a bad basis for how classes operate together. I am on the side though that healing and self-sustain should be cut down across the board and active mitigation and healing should be put back into the game. Wanting a tank to self-heal themselves in bursts without healer intervention is basically asking for a solo game further. Literally, we're just missing high DPS numbers.

With that said though, you shouldn't expect this and no amount of "not letting them off the hook" is going to change that, because the game is thriving with money. Or in short, they have their core base, and as long as that remains nothing will change as long as the general consensus doesn't. I wish you luck though on getting it to change however as I'd like to see a real MMO and not something that feels more akin to a single-player game with a co-op option.

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Originally Posted by Ashua

I do not think anyone is arguing against that. Right now though the parity is almost all damage and no healing. I have all of these wonderful shields, aoes, single target OCD heals, and plenty of ways to heal and mitigate damage, and well instead some people want me to shut up and spam broil almost entirely? That is atrocious game design for encounters to be that way. I want to be a healer and not a one-button DPS with 75% the DPS of a real damage dealer and all of these heals that are not even needed. The best way to rectify is to take steps that make use of those resources which would be redesigning mechanics to require more healing, weakening aoe heals and all these burst cooldowns heals and reducing self-sustain of non healers if it turns out to be too powerful in savage.

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you're wrong. doing dungeons and other casual content like extremes is where you get to have fun just spamming dps buttons and using ogcds to keep your party up.
savage/ultimate is where you actually get to start using all of your tools properly without overkilling by being the type of healer that REALLY just wants to stand there spamming cure 1.

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Originally Posted by Ashua

I do not think anyone is arguing against that. Right now though the parity is almost all damage and no healing. I have all of these wonderful shields, aoes, single target OCD heals, and plenty of ways to heal and mitigate damage, and well instead some people want me to shut up and spam broil almost entirely? That is atrocious game design for encounters to be that way. I want to be a healer and not a one-button DPS with 75% the DPS of a real damage dealer and all of these heals that are not even needed. The best way to rectify is to take steps that make use of those resources which would be redesigning mechanics to require more healing, weakening aoe heals and all these burst cooldowns heals and reducing self-sustain of non healers if it turns out to be too powerful in savage.

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Having 90% healing spells used 10% of the time, but using the 10% made for damage 90% of the time is kind of weird, anyway. This isn't just a problem with tank's healing, the whole combat system needs to be looked at.

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Originally Posted by ElenaRedoran

you're wrong. doing dungeons and other casual content like extremes is where you get to have fun just spamming dps buttons and using ogcds to keep your party up.
savage/ultimate is where you actually get to start using all of your tools properly without overkilling by being the type of healer that REALLY just wants to stand there spamming cure 1.

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How can it be that you only get to play your job as it's designed to play in content made for a low percentage of players?
Everything in this game needs to follow the same rules, or you end up with situations like this, where "it's irrelevant for casuals". We're playing different games in such a case, and that's not good.

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Originally Posted by Ashua

Yawn. Mock if you will. The fact you are left with snarky sarcasm is the defeated final stand. Yes I've said to others we can agree to disagree but if you think an entire role of the game should be thrown under the bus just to satisfy another role than no I don't think I can even accept your opinion. One role should not have it all at the expense of healers so yes I'll be pushing to have self healing removed at much as possible. Only exception should be paladin. I actually think classes should keep it's identity. Clemency can fill that spot along with cover.

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The sarcasm is because you don't know what you're talking about, and clearly don't care enough to do anything other than whine, complain, and pick arguments on the Internet. we just going to ignore ARR? Warrior always had self heals. PLD had potions, cure, stoneskin, and raise, but all but the potions weren't all that usable. Clemency is the first and only effective/reliable targeted heal on a tank. It can and has replaced the healer on dungeon boss fights since it's existence.



Why you cry of self healing, but not targeted healing is beyond me. That's why I say we can agree to disagree. You are complaining about skills that don't replace healers arguing that they replace healers, and it conflicts with tank identity... But then you are okay with a skill like clemency that actually has replaced healers, because of the tank's identity. We are too far apart to agree.

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Originally Posted by ElenaRedoran

you're wrong. doing dungeons and other casual content like extremes is where you get to have fun just spamming "one" dps button and the "tanks" ogcds to keep your party up.
savage/ultimate is where you actually get to start using all of your tools properly without overkilling by being the type of healer that REALLY just wants to stand there spamming cure 1.

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Sorry. Just threw in a bit of correlation into your statement. Right now extreme is the high end of the game and thus my point remains valid. Content that is easily one healer healed with the lesser end of this raid tier level and still manages to only require about 5% of the entire event doing what our role is supposed to be is atrocious. Can you not see that? Probably not at this point. Sorry but I am a healer. I heal primarily and add a bit of damage afterward. It's not even remotely balanced. It is literally 5% of every freaking fight and then it's just one button. Honestly at this stage even applying the dot isn't much extra incentive.

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Originally Posted by winsock

The sarcasm is because you don't know what you're talking about, and clearly don't care enough to do anything other than whine, complain, and pick arguments on the Internet. we just going to ignore ARR? Warrior always had self heals. PLD had potions, cure, stoneskin, and raise, but all but the potions weren't all that usable. Clemency is the first and only effective/reliable targeted heal on a tank. It can and has replaced the healer on dungeon boss fights since it's existence.


Why you cry of self healing, but not targeted healing is beyond me. That's why I say we can agree to disagree. You are complaining about skills that don't replace healers arguing that they replace healers, and it conflicts with tank identity... But then you are okay with a skill like clemency that actually has replaced healers, because of the tank's identity. We are too far apart to agree.

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Then we can agree that self-healing is too powerful. You are right that warrior self-healing is in the extreme case right now. And lol at the use of potions, cure, and stoneskin. The paladin once upon a time had to actually continue to weave his abilities to hold aggro before holding aggro became a non-issue. On tank swaps, in Bahamut coils, a paladin could meaningfully help and that was not an issue because I was still having to heal more than spam my damage. I want to HEAL. It is not that difficult of a concept to grasp. If I had to spend more time healing over dealing damage I would have less to as wrongfully misinterpret as whining. Why is it when someone wants to actually play a class they decided to main as whining because another role invalidates it? If I am having to do my job "healing" for even half the time that would be more satisfying but it's not. It's apparent you wish to tiptoe around the issue in order to keep the power of your role and that is fine since it is your opinion. But to try to discredit me by stating I am whining when I give my views on the balance issues which are actual issues. When a healer's role is not really its true role anymore it is an issue. Simply put. It defies logic as to why every tank (minus Drk) has the capacity to even invalidate healers healing even more with aoe shields/ability reductions is beyond me. We are barely making use of our heals as it is. Boggle at SE for thinking that healers are so overwhelmed at our one-button damage that they have to equip tanks with the utility to help make healing even easier??

Yeah no. Stop complaining. Game is barely out and already complaining complaining and more complaining. Don't play if you hate the game so much.

It's unfortunate that there isn't much of an actual healer main perspective on this. It would be interesting to see what the responses would be on the healer subforum.

I think if you gave the average tank the option between permanent invincibility to everything outside of oneshot mechanics, against Dark Souls-esque mitigation gameplay where you have to perfectly time a rapid sequence of blocks or instantly die and wipe your raid, the overwhelming majority would choose the first route, because being more powerful is always better amirite? What these players don't realize is that it's possible to be both invincible and irrelevant.

I suspect that many of the better healers would find the amount of tank damage being put out irrelevant even prior to these self-healing changes, but it would be interesting to see their response.

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Originally Posted by Ashua

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Originally I said that sustaining yourself is part of tanking. ARR warrior had self heals. That's always been warriors thing. Self healing doesn't replace healers. You can lol at potions, but they're cheap, you don't go through them very quickly, and can be very effective on lower lvl dungeons.



Targeted heals can replace healers. IMO if the healer dies on a dungeon boss and the tank can keep both DPS alive, the tank is too strong.


Self heals don't really matter. This game has never really been about hps. Who cares if an already low hps check is lowered slightly by a sheltron HoT? If you play healer to heal, great, but there isn't enough healing to do regardless of tank self heals. That's been true pretty much since release

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

You're legit complaining about self-sustain in the lowest possible denominator of content...dungeons that means absolutely nothing apart from a means to get exp or get tomes as quick as possible, period. So what if tanks can recover a healer screwing up and saving a dungeon boss, "oh the humanity!" even though Paladin has been doing this for the last four years. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

you will need to wait until normal mode raids come out, or even more preferably Savage before you can even remotely get close to a baseline average to see how tanks are actually performing, as dungeon content is no way remotely close to a means to balancing jobs.

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This is honestly a pretty bizarre take.
What are the implications here exactly, that Healers should just be completely irrelevant outside of Savage?
By that same logic lets just erase the tank role too and make all dps tanky or nerf the damage of mobs in dungeons.

Healers shouldn't be essentially irrelevant in 99% of the content in the game.
Savage is a very small part of the game.

It's definitely too over the top I've seen WAR's in particular solo bosses in the lvl 90 dungeons.
That's not right, it shouldn't be a thing.
People need to have some perspective here and not solely look at it from the lens of a tank/ WAR player.

Warrior's are the biggest outliers when it comes to overtuned tank healing.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

This is honestly a pretty bizarre take.
What are the implications here exactly, that Healers should just be completely irrelevant outside of Savage?
By that same logic lets just erase the tank role too and make all dps tanky or nerf the damage of mobs in dungeons.

Healers shouldn't be essentially irrelevant in 99% of the content in the game.
Savage is a very small part of the game.

It's definitely too over the top I've seen WAR's in particular solo bosses in the lvl 90 dungeons.
That's not right, it shouldn't be a thing.
People need to have some perspective here and not solely look at it from the lens of a tank/ WAR player.

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I went into a Tower of Zot as a level 81 AST, We got to last boss and I died early pull due to me not moving in time from a mechanic.

Level 82 warrior casually heals through the last bosses damage like it meant nothing.

The real problem is dungeons are too easy so that any warm body with a pulse can pass them.

Healers are not irrelevant in multi pack pulls, sure War and maybe pld could have the sustain but not for long.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

This is honestly a pretty bizarre take.
What are the implications here exactly, that Healers should just be completely irrelevant outside of Savage?
By that same logic lets just erase the tank role too and make all dps tanky or nerf the damage of mobs in dungeons.

Healers shouldn't be essentially irrelevant in 99% of the content in the game.
Savage is a very small part of the game.

It's definitely too over the top I've seen WAR's in particular solo bosses in the lvl 90 dungeons.
That's not right, it shouldn't be a thing.
People need to have some perspective here and not solely look at it from the lens of a tank/ WAR player.

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So I never once mention healers being irrelevant, that is you inferring and making my comment into something other than what is clearly written by myself. The only thing I referring to being irrelevant was dungeons past farming exp and tomes, that's all they are good for.

My only addressing of Savage is that it is the only true method of testing jobs, since that's where you need some degree of co-ordination from all roles making use of they toolkit at some degree of competency. In this competency you will see how well tanks and healers can perform, as dungeons you can toss cooldowns and oGCDs anywhere and still get by fine.

Sure WAR is a bit strong on the self-sustain, I won't deny that, but using the soloing of a level 90 dungeon boss is a crap measure due to the fact that I have solo'd both level 70 and 80 bosses as Paladin. Point is kinda moot.

It just reinforce the point that the balance is wack actually.

To give some perspective to tanks soloing bosses , I’ve been the last man standing on a lot of these lv 90 dungeon bosses and have solo them from 30% and below on down to zero but in the trial Zodiark Ex when my group went down at 3% and my big tank mitigation’s were all used up there was no self healing the rest of that.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's unfortunate that there isn't much of an actual healer main perspective on this. It would be interesting to see what the responses would be on the healer subforum.

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I main healer and I'd rather see tanks have self-sustain. Tank sustain isn't an issue, the issue is there isn't enough damage to heal. Healers are deluding themselves if they think taking Nascent Flash and Equilibrium away from Warrior is going to turn them into useful healbots. You might end up casting 126 Glare instead of 128.

Dungeon bosses are irrelevant content and have been soloed by tanks since forever. I'd rather see things just hit harder and more frequently in general, so both tank toolkits and healers are useful.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I main healer and I'd rather see tanks have self-sustain. Tank sustain isn't an issue, the issue is there isn't enough damage to heal. Healers are deluding themselves if they think taking Nascent Flash and Equilibrium away from Warrior is going to turn them into useful healbots. You might end up casting 126 Glare instead of 128.

Dungeon bosses are irrelevant content and have been soloed by tanks since forever. I'd rather see things just hit harder and more frequently in general, so both tank toolkits and healers are useful.

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Good luck trying to Heal a DRK with those changes lol

Paladin till this Xpac had 0 healing ability, and plenty of Savage fights fought on tank swaps, hitting both tanks, etc, Healers did just fine keeping Paladin alive.

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Originally Posted by NyneSwordz

Yeah no. Stop complaining. The game is barely out and already complaining complaining and more complaining. Don't play if you hate the game so much.

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I believe this will be my first real complaint. The rest were organized thoughts with the reasoning behind the logic of why I even posted this topic. My complaint is how you are trying to turn this personal. Those assumptions do not line up with the reality of what I even posted and make no sense. Even inferring I dislike a game that I paid for and did not ask for a refund back compels me to ask you to keep on topic and not attempt to derail or troll a discussion that I feel needs to be had. I will end my topic on healing in general here since the healer forum is a better place to discuss such matters since it's veering off the path of the tank aspect of the talk.

Scholar main here. I am not bothered if tanks heal or not but do care that I have Ruin2/broil 4, Art of war and Biolysis, not even a fairy to manage..... I am a broil mage. Healing isn't a huge challenge and removing my dps kit into some simplistic format is a shame.

If I am a green mage and then please add more support skills then as healer, but for goodness sake balance me in a way that makes it more interesting for me as a class I love. Whilst I wish for the days of 6 dots and a busy toolkit it isn't coming back Healers being turned into this simplistic state is not a great direction of travel and then we could argue for or just getting rid of the whole classification and Sage isn't the healers saviour. I still love my role, copium or whatever it is you will have to drag my codex from my hands.

I may have missed it in these forums but I used to be a paladin player in ARR, HW remember when holding emnity was a challenge and you had to earn it, flash, flash, flash and doing your rotation on the mobs. I did like personally it when dps could pull emnity from tank and the tanks had an oh crap moment as it made them earn their tank role and that added a personal dimension. I suspect for many it was a pain in the neck for many back then and the multipliers for emnity are too easy now but then War and Paladin stance dancing were great too (though the leeches demand for the warrior pacification was annoying)

I do dps as much as I can but healing is my primary role as a support class to keep people up....give me more to do to contribute so I can use my skill. In short tanks sustain then ok, but give us healers something more to do. Healers are not idiots, have skills and can bring alot to a group from my perspective, how it is should be done?... I don't have any answers.

I am not being serious... but if we broaden out this discussion then should healers not get tank capabilities if the tank does drops? it isn't always the healers fault a tank dies there are bad bad tanks out there. DPS should have healing and tank capabilities then if they're the last job type standing? /shrug.

TLDR: Please give whatever a healer type should be more to do :)

Here is my BASIC opinion

-Paladin- damage needs to be increased Self sustain/healing is good

-Dark Knight- damage needs to be reduced and Selfsustain increased to Paladin Levels

-Warrior- damage is good healing needs to be reduced to paladin levels

-Gun Blade- i have no freaking idea i barely see them and i don't play them lol

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Originally Posted by Zordrage

Here is my BASIC opinion

-Paladin- damage needs to be increased Self sustain/healing is good

-Dark Knight- damage needs to be reduced and Selfsustain increased to Paladin Levels

-Warrior- damage is good healing needs to be reduced to paladin levels

-Gun Blade- i have no freaking idea i barely see them and i don't play them lol

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Why do all tanks need to be the same though? Why should DRK get nerfed when it's finally good for something other than being a lesser WAR?

You can say PLD will be left behind in favour of DRK when things are on farm or being speed run but that means nothing to most players, even at the high end, people play what they enjoy the most.

We've had more than enough homogenisation across the tank role already, we don't need more.

What will invariably come out of this sort of suggestion is that DRK will end up with marginally more self-sustain than it does now, core problems like Living Dead and conditional mitigation effects will continue to go unaddressed, and PLD and WAR will be buffed to do more damage than DRK. Monkey's Paw is more likely to apply to you when you're not the dev team's favorite. I would much rather keep the small things that we still have.

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Originally Posted by jetfire117

It makes it fun and gives the healer the ability to DPS

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FFS...Healers don't WANT to DPS. That's why they made a healer! The last thing I want to do when I roll a healing class in any game is to be DPSing all the time. If I wanted that I would have made a DPS class.

Sadly, FFXIV may have finally pushed me out of wanting to be a healer. It simply isn't fun anymore. Hitting a single button over and over to do our astounding DPS you seem to think we should do for some reason is NOT fun. I am a main healer in every MMO I touch, until now. I don't see myself working on a healer in this expansion. Nor do I plan to tank despite that being my secondary role for the life of this game and every other MMO.

FFXIV did the one thing I never thought an MMO could do. It pushed me out of Healing and Tanking(what I love to do) and I'm now a DPS main. Why? Because DPS feel more fun to play than the tanks or healers in FFXIV(And I'm saying that as someone who has been tanking/healing for over two decades of MMOs now.

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Originally Posted by Zordrage

-Dark Knight- damage needs to be reduced(...)

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Nope.

/10chars

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Originally Posted by Rhysati

FFS...Healers don't WANT to DPS. That's why they made a healer! The last thing I want to do when I roll a healing class in any game is to be DPSing all the time. If I wanted that I would have made a DPS class.

Sadly, FFXIV may have finally pushed me out of wanting to be a healer. It simply isn't fun anymore. Hitting a single button over and over to do our astounding DPS you seem to think we should do for some reason is NOT fun. I am a main healer in every MMO I touch, until now. I don't see myself working on a healer in this expansion. Nor do I plan to tank despite that being my secondary role for the life of this game and every other MMO.

FFXIV did the one thing I never thought an MMO could do. It pushed me out of Healing and Tanking(what I love to do) and I'm now a DPS main. Why? Because DPS feel more fun to play than the tanks or healers in FFXIV(And I'm saying that as someone who has been tanking/healing for over two decades of MMOs now.

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Yep dropped tanking when emnity was guaranteed and homogenisation began but then I was a fan of the stances. Personally I am close to ditching my scholar book. I am fine with DPS as healer personally as ARR/HW scholar with fairy management but its broil4 spam isnt fun. Love the game, dont like the job and maybe its time to go RDM/SMN full time.

Scrolling through the pages and reading comments, especially those with a bunch of thumbsup, let me highly doubt that the most guys here are good tanks or have a clue about game-design.

Any tank is able to solo-content since SHB and it has become easier with Endwalker. YES even DRK is able to do that and i´m not only talking about dungeons. Take away those 5x stacks, instadeath mechanics without having 8 players alive or DPS checks and tanks would solo the current EX content easily. Even older savage content is managable given to the damage-income on tanks, which is mostly non-existend. A lot of times, with some bad players in savage dieing at every mechanic, i´ve been like "We should go in with 8 tanks and heal / shield each other." You wouldn´t have to care for AOE´s, they´re so rare that tanks are able to eat them for free and you can uptime at any shit, because of reasons. What are stacks?!

Healers have become nothing but 1 button spam with any good tank. When i tank as WAR, it goes even so far that i tell the heals "I´m gonna safe the DPS, don´t care about it."
It´s a major design issue in a trinity MMORPG. If anything, healers gonna heal in savage every 30s with their oGCD´s and that´s it. Laughable at best....

Either we need a bunch of more damage-income or tanks need to lose half of their defs, especially the new broken ones and BLN. When a good tank is able to eat any shit, to keep himself and the group somehow alive AND to have a higher DPS than the most "normal players" on DPS classes, then this game goes completely in the wrong direction. And on top you have to take care for nothing but 123 and that your tankstance is active.

All this nonsense made me even quit FF14 for a while with the SHB release. A bunch of you guys here should play something different to see what it means "to be a tank" and how a decent trinity works. Tanks in FF14 are braindead and overtuned af.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Playing through this expansion Omg I can’t tell you how many unnecessary deaths I’ve had and seen due to healers either just refusing to heal or just don’t know how to heal. I’m glad tanks can sustain themselves and others now. I’ve had some good tanks where the healer died and we killed the dungeon boss still. Yeah it might make the healer feel like crap but hey if you not gonna do your job then at least tanks can cover it to some extent.

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It´s not "some extent", tanks are able to carry the shit out of the game. All what they miss is a rezz-option, otherwise they´re just broken and not depending on any other class in the whole group, meanwhile DPS can only hope to have good tanks / healer with them, since their own defs just suck. (RDM left out)
And seriously dieing to anything but a sick AOE is not the healers fault. The healer is more an "emergency-tool" for anyone who missplays something instead of being a healer who actually needs to heal. And if things go really nuts, please press LB3...

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Originally Posted by Visanis

Why do all tanks need to be the same though? Why should DRK get nerfed when it's finally good for something other than being a lesser WAR?

You can say PLD will be left behind in favour of DRK when things are on farm or being speed run but that means nothing to most players, even at the high end, people play what they enjoy the most.

We've had more than enough homogenisation across the tank role already, we don't need more.

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you need to see more then just numbers...

if their number outputs are the same in Sustain and damage thats called BALANCE.

and read again DRK is not nerfed its balanced it has too much damage but selfsustain is trash it needs to get more selfsustain but it would end up OP if he keeps the crazy damage it does for a tank next to new buffed selfsustain.

It does NOT make the tanks same.. Because Gameplay wise how you get to those numbers is way different between the tanks all the tanks have different play style with some overlaps.

Think outside of the Box pls DRK is NOT a DPS its a TANK and it does its job as a TANK HORRIBLY

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Originally Posted by Zordrage

you need to see more then just numbers...

if their number outputs are the same in Sustain and damage thats called BALANCE.

and read again DRK is not nerfed its balanced it has too much damage but selfsustain is trash it needs to get more selfsustain but it would end up OP if he keeps the crazy damage it does for a tank next to new buffed selfsustain.

It does NOT make the tanks same.. Because Gameplay wise how you get to those numbers is way different between the tanks all the tanks have different play style with some overlaps.

Think outside of the Box pls DRK is NOT a DPS its a TANK and it does its job as a TANK HORRIBLY

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That not everything is about numbers is something i can agree with.
But that DRK should be a horrible tank is absolutely nonsense. Player-related issue because it has no 50k heals like WAR?

Just because you're not able to use your defs correctly, doesn't mean it has no self-sustain or it's worse than other tanks.

And there is definately no need that any tank has to be similar to each other, which they're since SHB. This is just sad and given by the stuff which is written down here, i know where those tankdumbdowns coming from.

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Originally Posted by Zordrage

you need to see more then just numbers...

if their number outputs are the same in Sustain and damage thats called BALANCE.

and read again DRK is not nerfed its balanced it has too much damage but selfsustain is trash it needs to get more selfsustain but it would end up OP if he keeps the crazy damage it does for a tank next to new buffed selfsustain.

It does NOT make the tanks same.. Because Gameplay wise how you get to those numbers is way different between the tanks all the tanks have different play style with some overlaps.

Think outside of the Box pls DRK is NOT a DPS its a TANK and it does its job as a TANK HORRIBLY

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You still didn't answer why they have to be the same though. Not all tanks need to be equal in damage and sustain. You don't achieve balance by everything being literally the same thing with a different coat of paint.

If we take your idea of "balance", gameplay wise if all tanks do the same thing, but one of them has to put in even more effort to achieve the same as the others, thus has the capability of being punished with lower damage output if they make a mistake, do you consider that balanced?

Also you're acting like DRK is doing thousands more damage rather than hundreds lmao.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Just because you're not able to use your defs correctly, doesn't mean it has no self-sustain or it's worse than other tanks.

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but it IS worse then other tanks.

no matter how you use your def CDs on a DRK a healer literraly need to work twice as hard on a DRK then all the other tanks. As a TANK thats bad.

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Originally Posted by Visanis

You still didn't answer why they have to be the same though. Not all tanks need to be equal in damage and sustain. You don't achieve balance by everything being literally the same thing with a different coat of paint.

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i did answered it and again just because numbers are the same the jobs aren't.
they would not be 100% same number wise just way closer to each other.
Gameplay is not just a coat of paint lol

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Originally Posted by Visanis

Why should DRK get nerfed when it's finally good for something other than being a lesser WAR?

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You say nerfed i say it would be a Buff for DRK TANKING to trade some DMG for selfsustain.

Damage is by and far the one thing that matters most in this game. Trading some of DRK's current damage for more mitigation/self-healing would in fact be a nerf in the eyes of the raiding community.

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Originally Posted by Zordrage

but it IS worse then other tanks.

no matter how you use your def CDs on a DRK a healer literraly need to work twice as hard on a DRK then all the other tanks. As a TANK thats bad.

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This is just not true. WAR is the only one which can run easily through dungeons and the most raids with tons of selfheal only and no damage loss. But even that needs to be used wisely instead of "on cd" and there is still content which hurts any tank a bit.
DRK on the other hand doesn´t have such major healing skills, but the biggest healing potency on 123, a one-time healing aoe and BLN. The barrier does a lot to assist healer or to rescue nearly dead partymembers.

All tanks are strong af... the major reason why WAR is superior in self-sustain is because the heal proccs on hit. And this is more broken than balanced.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Damage is by and far the one thing that matters most in this game. Trading some of DRK's current damage for more mitigation/self-healing would in fact be a nerf in the eyes of the raiding community.

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Fair. But why can’t SE add something to DRK to give it a viable heal that is untenable to use outside of “have to or die” scenarios - something akin to clemency that normally is not going to be part of the rotation and is an option at a cost of DPS? DRKs kit has been parted so why not a loosely related cousin of PLD in that of clemency?