Dungeons are becoming style over substance.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I don't foresee major changes to dungeons in terms of them being 'shallow'. The fact is, they're accepted as regular, rotatable content for years now with only a small levels of complaint focused in places like these.

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And in-game. In either case, we've seen that vein of complaint since the Demon Wall nerfs and again after the Pharos Sirius nerfs. That vein's been a long-historied one in this game.

Remember the slime which you need to pop a bomb and then make it explode near the slime so it can split until is killable?

As I have read through the rest of this thread, it is obvious there are many here who would likely enjoy more difficult end game content in another popular MMORPG that is more tailored to that.

One of the main reasons you are seeing such an exodus *from* that other gam right now, is because that other game stopped catering to it's casual player base offering less and less in the way of meaningful rewards in less and less casual content, overemphasizing difficult 1% player base content.

Please don't make this game WoW. It's why so many of us came here recently. WoW has no equivalent to "hanging out in Limsa" with Bards, and dancers, a robust emote system, beautiful glamours etc.

The easy PvE content is the very reason for this games explosion in popularity as of late. I will take style over speed runs any day.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And in-game. In either case, we've seen that vein of complaint since the Demon Wall nerfs and again after the Pharos Sirius nerfs. That vein's been a long-historied one in this game.

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Yes. However what's not be mentioned here is that that vein of complaint can usually be traced to the same people who complained back then. And also since then, content like Deep Dungeon, Heaven on High, Eureka, and Bozja have been implemented to attempt to accommodate more exploration based content. In the last two, the additions of Content-Based Raids existed that were very much the in-depth dungeons that were asked of, but of a larger personal scale. All have been reduced to the same level of grind and repetition as all other content has been, and its complexity eventually hampers its longevity.

There will always be those who desire something that's not there. I'm not opposed, at all for it to be accommodated, but making it more than what it actually is does not help its cause. This is a lingering desire, not a system-wide problem. It does not surprise me at all that the same people who were critical of this in ARR's launch are still critical of it, and that there are others who agree. The point is that in spite of that complaint, the system is quite successful as a whole. Therefore, I strongly suggest that the answer should be outside that system.

As the Devils Advocate here: "Don't go wasting my time with needlessly complex dungeons in my roulettes." Is the overall counterpoint. Not that those more complex dungeons shouldn't exist. We have plenty of existing options for anyone looking to progress now. So long as we don't put a substantial dent in those I see no reason why we can't give the area designers some room to stretch their skills in making fun designs. As far as the difficulty complaint? Eh, that's always adjustable and nobody here has any real say so on how that plays out so I'm not concerned with that conversation. It usually just boils down to ego, and I don't have time for it.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Imagine quitting a genre over a completely optional challenge content.

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Even if those dungeons were literally optional, they would not feel that way. At the very least keep them off of any sort of progression path to keep them from feeling so mandatory. Even then, I don't want it, because it would take away resources from development of other things.

The thought of XIV players not realizing just how good they've got it and wanting to WoWify the game is horrifying.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Yes. However what's not be mentioned here is that that vein of complaint can usually be traced to the same people who complained back then.

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I think you both overestimate player retention and underestimate just how dull the pull-to-gate-AoE-pull-to-gate-AoE-boss-pull-to-gate-AoE-pull-to-gate-AoE-boss-pull-to-gate-AoE-pull-to-gate-AoE-boss hallway sprint simulator can be even to new players...

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And also since then, content like Deep Dungeon, Heaven on High, Eureka, and Bozja have been implemented to attempt to accommodate more exploration based content.

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To the same sense that providing powdered eggs attempts to accommodate a 5-star breakfast, perhaps. But note also that a lack of "exploration" alone, or even primarily, does not come anywhere close to encapsulating the complaints towards dungeons being a shallow and/or stale experience.

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In the last two, the additions of Content-Based Raids existed that were very much the in-depth dungeons that were asked of, but of a larger personal scale.

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And gated behind long grinds that those who've complained about the unvaried dungeon experience are in many cases the very players most likely to find mind-numbing.

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There will always be those who desire something that's not there.

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Yes, until it's there. There was a desire for PvP. Your blasé philosophizing would have been just as appropriate were anyone in 2.0 to have asked for PvP to be added.

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This is a lingering desire, not a system-wide problem.

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Yes, that's how unfulfilled desires work. And, like most unfulfilled desires, there are system-level intersections. The most notable here is flat daily bonuses on roulettes which incentivize players towards the shortest possible dungeon path for max efficiency; even if the rewards for doing each optional element in a dungeon were slightly overtuned, as long as you're getting a flat daily bonus equal or nearly equal to the whole base run's worth of reward, that balance of rewards within the dungeon itself will just be overpowered by the daily bonuses, causing conflicts between those doing the roulette or any content on it for the first time that day and those who are going for a second or further time.

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As the Devils Advocate here: "Don't go wasting my time with needlessly complex dungeons in my roulettes."

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Then, a further counterpoint: Why would you limit fun to what is convenient to a singular, barebone 8-year-old reward loop and its enticements, rather than designing your reward loops and enticements around what is fun?

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We have plenty of existing options for anyone looking to progress now.

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While I agree with your larger message that immediately follows (regarding to what extent designers stretching their skills would be harmless), a brief note:

We have a handful of content types; the problem is when the individual pieces of content within any given type feels largely interchangeable, or only a small portion is included in the enticed content flow (i.e., in the game's efficient reward loops). And here, too, the point in case is dungeons.

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As far as the difficulty complaint? Eh, that's always adjustable and nobody here has any real say so on how that plays out so I'm not concerned with that conversation.

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We can't both have "adjustable" difficulty and have no "real say" on how that plays out. If the "adjustable" difficulty you speak of is purely from the devs end -- to nerf (historically, always) or reinvigorate (historically, never) content as they see fit -- that still rings false, so long as the requests are made for a reduction in difficulty (see Keep, Pharos, Steps, etc.).

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Imagine quitting a genre over a completely optional challenge content.

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• Costs next to nothing to implement compared to its at-level gear and difficulty progression provided (more efficient, even, than the content obviously meant to optimize hours played per dev hours spent like Diadem, Eureka, and Bozja).
• Provides incredibly granular difficulty to progress at one's own pace, between gearing out more comprehensively before progressing forward or pushing forward on skill and a dream alone.
• Doesn't allow for players to be replaced mid-dungeon, thus reducing mid-run drama, but provides for well-contextualized at-a-glance information as to potential party members' experience as to also reduce the chance of getting a horribly underprepared player.
• Timers convenience players playing on a schedule by setting a particular expectation (e.g. of a ~35 minute run -- more likely ~25 minutes here in XIV's simpler dungeons) so that players have a more unified approach to the content and are less incentivized to bash their head against walls for well over an hour, while still barely punishing failure in terms of loot quality lost (from 236 to 233, or about a 1.2% loss, at the current ilvl cap) and thus allowing for intentionally longer runs (albeit in a manner specified in party formation, as it's not normalized by the system itself).
• Variance even within the same dungeon via additive components ("affixes").

What's not to hate, honestly? /s

Granted, If I'd the choice, I'd get rid of the keystones and just let us go into whatever dungeon we want at whatever level we feel is worth our time and effort. And if we were talking XIV, there's no way I'd port M+ over directly. XIV deserves its own spin on things, so long as it doesn't continue to find its style in what is simply "both less functional and more convoluted" as per so many other of its other technical systems (much like WoW's reward/progression systems when compared to XIV's, outside of the latter's roulettes), such as our beloved glamour dresser...

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Originally Posted by ChocoPuni

FF13 is fantastic and is easily one of the best FF to date. First game was meant to be a prologue and they spent a lot of money making the graphics look good. If you look at any other Japanese games (maybe except Kojima and Sony), they don’t look as good as FF13 still does. Textures are clean, everything is bright and shiny, etc

The game had a linear structure because it was a prologue to the entire universe. It’s not like FF XII where XII Was the main portrayal of Ivalice. XIII is essentially three games and they planned even more to expand it.

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I am one of the few people who liked the story, but let's face it, the story made no sense, the battles had almost no strategy and all you had to do was push a single button to win. The first dozen of hours were a giant tutorial and extremely boring out of maybe a few boss fights. And AFAIK, the sequels were green lit after sales projections were in so those came after the fact. XIII-2 also starts with redconning parts of XIII.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

As I have read through the rest of this thread, it is obvious there are many here who would likely enjoy more difficult end game content in another popular MMORPG that is more tailored to that.

One of the main reasons you are seeing such an exodus *from* that other gam right now, is because that other game stopped catering to it's casual player base offering less and less in the way of meaningful rewards in less and less casual content, overemphasizing difficult 1% player base content.

Please don't make this game WoW. It's why so many of us came here recently. WoW has no equivalent to "hanging out in Limsa" with Bards, and dancers, a robust emote system, beautiful glamours etc.

The easy PvE content is the very reason for this games explosion in popularity as of late. I will take style over speed runs any day.

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Alright screw it, I'll bite the bait.
What's going on with WoW is far more nuanced than "The game's instanced content requires more than two functioning braincells to complete" Wow absolutely has the equivalent of hanging out in cities with bards. In fact, I'd say that game has a lot more draw to casual players with its pet battle systems, archeology (even though it's been abandoned there's still a lot of lore to go around and collect), heaps of daily open world activities that can reward mounts and such. Meanwhile XIV really has most of its rewards locked behind instanced content.


Stop insulting casual players by assuming they can only participate in content that's only requirement is for the group to press the forward button while doing something resembling a rotation.

I have personally coached newbies and career casuals, young and old, into raiding for years over multiple games, and for the ones actually interested in playing the game, their lack of ability to commit more time to the game did not get in the way of their ability to enjoy more complex encounters once they were able to grasp the games' systems, and their newfound masteries over those systems did not stop them from still being casuals. "Casually playing a game" does not mean "Being unable to play the game well"

And I'm asking for more interesting dungeon content precisely because I'm tired of speedrunning. But with dungeons that are only a hazard free straight line of AoE trash to a boss in a circle or square repeat x2, that's the ONLY thing we can do with them. There's no sense of adventure because the only place to go is forward. The area isn't dangerous so why not just pull everything? I don't really have to think about anything in the dungeon, so why not think about the only question the content presents me with? "How do I get this over with faster?" Do the dungeon once for story, it's cool. Have to do it multiple times for tomestones, and now it's a repetitive chore. Because, save for VERY few exceptions, every dungeon made since HW has been fundamentally the same with minor variations on boss mechanics.

Give me, not a miniboss, but a logic puzzle to open a door and that'll slow me down and let me smell the roses. Especially if it's requiring environmental hints and interactions. (And it would make a LOT more sense to have one of those instead of these weird load-bearing trash mobs in front of a wall that just disintegrates once it gets lonely.)
Give me a sprawling map of twisted corridors or a large area of a forest with secrets and loot hidden around, maybe even puzzles to reveal them, and I'll take the time (probably after the final boss) to go around hunting for them.
Give me environmental hazards and enemies that can push or pull and that'll slow down the big pulls as it becomes way too risky to get constantly manhandled around by the monsters.
Give me a roaming boss (in a dungeon that isn't a straight line because, well that's not much of a place to roam now is it?) that can be encountered anywhere and if you defeat it, it'll raise the chances of dropping (or even proc it to drop multiple of) the Rare Item of the dungeon (mount/minion).

Some of the ARR dungeons were really good STARTS to developing interesting dungeon experiences, but unfortunately instead of building on mechanics like the keys in Haukke, or the pads in Qarn, they've optimized the fun out of the dungeons following that era.


Just, SE give me something to do other than holding forward and doing my rotation I am bored of this same-dungeon-different-skin dance after 8 years.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Thousand Maws is detested because it's slow. The whole green slime at the end accomplishes nothing but to slow you down; there are no big pulls, especially due to our low level, and none of the added corridors lead to anything. In general, this is the problem with this argument. You can't expect people to care about branching paths if all you do is toss a snippet of lore text on the floor or a coffer with mostly useless gear. There needs to be a reason for players to branch off, but the dev team doesn't want to think of one.

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Originally Posted by Drakonic

I think SE is gravely wrong about turning dungeons into a pure vehicle for delivering the story, rather than an interesting encounter in and of itself

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That's where FFXI and WoW did pretty good actually. While FFXI didn't have instanced dungeons, we did have zones that were used like one to farm mobs. Then WoW with instanced. In both cases, they had quests which brought you to areas within these dangerous locations to complete a quest. OR they would have rare mobs that might occasionally spawn that dropped OP gear or some really awesome transmog/glam type of stuff. Plus both had some things with very interesting mechanics, particularly in WoW. I remember like in Cataclysm having dungeon introduced where you would fly on dragons and have to try to kill mobs with fireballs. If you didn't, then your progression in that dungeon would be harder as you had tons of elite things to kill. But if targeted and attacked while, you had a quick and easy run.

That said, the player base over the years has pulled away from this stuff. Those in my age group who played things like WoW, Everquest, Age of Camelot, FFXI, etc since their launch all have grown to have families and jobs. Within that group there is a subset that gripe because as much as they like the old content, they feel like it works against them and they want it more fair. They don't have the time to do all the stuff necessary.

Then you have the younger generation in their 20s or below. They grew up without knowing what a truly difficult and limiting MMO is like. By time they joined, they know nothing of the social aspect of MMO and the events we had. They haven't actually gotten to see GM playing with us like they did in the past. So many get jaded, but what makes it worse is the mindset I often see appear. That mindset is you can't be unique, you have to follow exact specs and rotations that are shown on a website by someone who claims to be an expert and mathematically found what works best. If you don't, then you're a loser and shouldn't play. Leveling shouldn't take long, it needs to be instant. The best gear needs to be easily obtained by them but if too many others get it, that's not right! Essentially, they want to turn all MMO into WoW, CoD, etc. Where you can rush through content and then it's just killing each other and/or maybe hopping into raids. Neither really allows themselves to enjoy the grind and meet other players. It's all queue system and even then, majority won't talk and will ditch the group right away without even giving out commendations.

The two start to combine in the idea that neither wants content that takes long. Both want to be able to play casually but make good progression. Both got sucked into games like WoW and became addicted to AddOns, so now they lack player skill. The reason I say lack skill is that those players got used to using AddOns that tracked aggro and let you click to taunt, it had things like HealBot which made it simple click to heal instead of targeting the person and then hitting your keybind, it alerted you to timers for bosses, and so much more. All of these things which became "necessary" diminished the player's ability to actually learn fights and pay attention to what's going on around them. And over the years, with how players have added things and used 3rd party, the consensus is everyone likes linear dungeons with simple mechanics. They also want to feel OP, so if they can't churn out high damage and kill fast enough, they complain that changes need to be done.

There's a lot of ridiculousness to it all. And I could almost write a book on it. I just tried to narrow down some main points. Forgive me if a little off on things, as I'm extremely tired but wanted to answer on it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I think you both overestimate player retention and underestimate just how dull the pull-to-gate-AoE-pull-to-gate-AoE-boss-pull-to-gate-AoE-pull-to-gate-AoE-boss-pull-to-gate-AoE-pull-to-gate-AoE-boss hallway sprint simulator can be even to new players...

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Please forgive me, but I'm not going to reply to a lot of that. In the end, some of it is flat misinterpreting intentions ('adjustable' was referring to dev typically toning down on what the proposed dififculty is, barring ultimates) , or just plain reaching toward content on a completely different ballpark of complaint (PVP is an entire genre of content, not a single 'type' like Dungeons or Beastribe Quests, which are designed to be interchangeable with each generation, like as not.)

In the end I'm not meaning to demean your stance or argument, but as the years have gone on, they sound more and more hollow. This debate hasn't changed in years, and while I'm in support of the idea that's come out of this discussion, I've never agreed with its tone nor its insulations behind it. Be critical if you wish - but bluntly, it doesn't seem to be aiding you.

What I would like to do is turn the course of the conversation to something more constructive. Looking at features or items that could be reused or incentivized in said content. Drumming up excitement for a new feature, rather then continuing to drag down the old feature, which truly isn't likely to change all that much. As you said: "Why would you limit fun?" Many people enjoy the fact that Roulette Dungeons are easy to process and digest.

Hating on Roulettes isn't going to make Exploration Dungeons more likely, in my view. At the very least, it hasn't been effective in all these years. If anything, I think a fair critique of other side content, like DA and BA, would likely be the better target for this - as that seems where they are wanting to experiment. I want to support the goal - I'm INTERESTED in having dungeons that are in depth and have complex mechanics. But I don't think you're going to incentivize the development by trying to bring down something else that has withstood the test of time in spite of your protestations.

However, I will say that I heavily disagree that I underestimate retention and engagement. I think you have a skewed perception on how the staff is measuring that particular success point. Remember, this is the game that Yoshida said years go he's okay with having players lapse on as content drought sets in. And, even before the massive spike in popularity due to certain streamers and WoW's failings, we were still net-growing. Perhaps its time to admit that this game, while not perfect by any measure, is a success? Remember all I'm asking is a bit of perspective adjustment here - and perhaps a tonal shift. Adding to the game is absolutely fine - but don't go alienating what already has proved to be successful.


Now, to contribute to the conversation of productiveness. I really want to see what they could do with dungeons. People were discussing issues of difficulty, but honestly, I'd like to see more along the lines of depth of mechanics. The Lost Actions system is really nice, but it's a sham it's limited to that branch of content. I'd like to see it in things smaller scale and more focused.

To be honest I've had a long held unrequited desire to see more team-based attacks in this game rather than singular performance as well, but I don't think it's going to occur - could live in content like this though - where they wouldn't be ashamed of going a bit wild.

This is what happens every time right? When content gets harder people complain its too hard and when it's too easy people complain it's too easy. And its not like the game has a winning formula either. They keep nerfing fights and dungeons for a reason. The approach they have taken is to eliminate the middle ground and make content either very hard or braindead. What this does is increase segregation between the players who want to play well and those who don't want to learn anything and still win.

As a consequence casuals feel things like ultimates are taking dev time away from things more people would enjoy and hard core players get bored of the base game because they only have some instanced content they really enjoy.

Here is the thing though, neither side can live without the other. You stop producing difficult content and you will see a mass exodus from this game that will kill it. You pander only the hardcore side and the same thing will happen. Let's not pretend the vast majority of the streamers that are incredibly popular and flooding this game with subs aren't hard core raiders themselves. So you have them to thank partially for the success of the game.

So either way this will be forever a back and forth argument between to sides who love this game. This thread is about those who believe the game skewed a bit to the too easy side at the moment. Perhaps it skews a bit harder next time. The Nier alliance raid has been heavily criticized because the majority of people do not find it challenging and it is not widely perceived to have a good story either. Perhaps some introspection is in order.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

This is what happens every time right? When content gets harder people complain its too hard and when it's too easy people complain it's too easy. And its not like the game has a winning formula either. They keep nerfing fights and dungeons for a reason. The approach they have taken is to eliminate the middle ground and make content either very hard or braindead. What this does is increase segregation between the players who want to play well and those who don't want to learn anything and still win.

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Yet in my opinion I think both camps should still exist. This is a game to pretty much live in. And there's been a pretty good separation between what is harder content for more dedicated players and what is more easily consumed for the general audience. That line is typically drawn at Extremes and higher. But - here's the thing. The argument isn't that casual players don't want hardcore experiences to exist - it's that casual players don't want their content taken away from them, where more hardcoreplayers want enforced difficulty on the casual base, because they're above the line and want to feel more engaged.

And so the tug of war is made. But it's made most often by the vocal minority. The difficult trends downward to get more people to try out the content, sort of like a gateway drug. It doesn't harm players trying to clear current content if old content is reduced in difficulty. Someone might try a raid unsynced and get tempted to try it a normal, and go further. That's the general idea - to try to direct new blood upwards on the difficulty/performance scale. There will always be a large amount of people who don't care enough to (goodness knows there are some that don't even do base mechanics right.) but to get someone from that average player, to a raider, you need to set those breadcrumbs.

At least, that's what the philosophy seems to be over at SE.

What I would love to see this "Exploration Dungeon" content to be - something similar along those lines - something to gateway people towards more difficult content, by creating something more engaging than more difficulty. The idea of it being "M +" (I'm presuming that's at Savage or above in FFXIV terms) in term of difficulty might not meet that criteria, but hell, if they can scale the difficulty of the content they produce, maybe they can do both. Issue being there is the pitfall of artificial difficulty - which to be honest, I'm rather glad SE avoids for the most part here.

There's a lot to consider, and I think if people would stop the tug of war and think of this as something new to add to the temptation chain upwards, we could really come out with a great suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

What I would like to see them spend the time away from making these dungeons to create true exploration content. I think we'd be well served by another Deep Dungeon that rewards exploration at a higher level than what we currently have accessible. Because when I see the descriptions of what people want - Deep Dungeon is the first and strongest example of something we already have that fits those desires. So I feel that's the route to go here for satisfying that itch. So, instead of complaining about roulette fodder, I'd like to see them revisit and improve upon Deep Dungeon based content so that those who want to enjoy diving into branching environments have a place to go that's recent.

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I'd love to see a Deep Dungeon that is based on the Crystal Tower.

I know we've visited the place twice now, but with G'raha Tia back and joining our group, I think he could possibly open it up for us to explore and weed out. The place is supposed to be several hundred floors, at least in Final Fantasy III it was given that feel. Higher floors could even expand upon our small exploration into the Void, maybe we actually get in there and start fixing the place!

If not Crystal Tower, there are several other places that have been affected by the Calamity.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

As I have read through the rest of this thread, it is obvious there are many here who would likely enjoy more difficult end game content in another popular MMORPG that is more tailored to that.

One of the main reasons you are seeing such an exodus *from* that other gam right now, is because that other game stopped catering to it's casual player base offering less and less in the way of meaningful rewards in less and less casual content, overemphasizing difficult 1% player base content.

Please don't make this game WoW. It's why so many of us came here recently. WoW has no equivalent to "hanging out in Limsa" with Bards, and dancers, a robust emote system, beautiful glamours etc.

The easy PvE content is the very reason for this games explosion in popularity as of late. I will take style over speed runs any day.

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I have never understood how anyone can find braindead content enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

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Please forgive me, but I'm not going to reply to a lot of that. In the end, some of it is flat misinterpreting intentions ('adjustable' was referring to dev typically toning down on what the proposed dififculty is, barring ultimates)

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I responded to that possible meaning in the very same sentence.

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However, I will say that I heavily disagree that I underestimate retention and engagement.

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The obvious inversion -- I said you overestimate player retention consequent to the weekly grind loops -- aside, you've conveniently left out the parameters again, despite having quoted them right at the head of your post: "I think you... underestimate just how dull the pull-to-gate-AoE-pull-to-gate-AoE-boss... hallway sprint simulator can be even to new players."

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Drumming up excitement for a new feature, rather then continuing to drag down the old feature, which truly isn't likely to change all that much.

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Such would perhaps be novel... if any attempt to offer new features wasn't met with "No, that'd conflict with the tried and true designs optimized for (hallway sprint simulator) roulettes," as you've done.

And let's be clear here; I haven't tried to "tear" or otherwise "bring down" expert roulettes as they stand. I've merely butted heads with the insistence that they are all that dungeons could ever be designed to be, or that there is no place in 4-man content for further designs, and have pointed out how the current roulette reward system unnecessarily constrains creativity in dungeon design by offering the same bonus at completion regardless of dungeon length.

My 'grand revolutionizing', as you seem to take it, has been only to ask that Expert Roulette's rewards more more properly scale -- or, at worst, be less overwhelmingly more efficient than other means of weekly tome-farming, so as to be less obligatory among our weekly activities.

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People were discussing issues of difficulty, but honestly, I'd like to see more along the lines of depth of mechanics.

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Those discussions inevitably meet. The majority of times increased difficulty has been suggested across the various dungeon design threads since ARR, that difficulty has been suggested in the form of deeper, more impactful, and/or more integral mechanics.
The problem is that those discussions have inevitably been tugged astray or bludgeoned with the reductive hammers of "but players can't handle that" or "it wouldn't be tome/minute efficient enough to compete", to the point that any concrete discussion gets bottlenecked by the larger warrants of whether the game can even allow "dungeon" and "depth" to exist in the same sentence without negation. That's why you see so much jaded discussion. That's why you see so many broad strokes. That's why you see discussion of the surrounding systems, so that a context for more than the most basic, uninspired, copy-pasta dungeon designs would be actually viable.

But, by all means, have at it. Mechanics are certainly more interesting to discuss than fighting the same policy-centric fights.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

The idea of it being "M +".

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Just a quick note: M+ is merely a system of granular difficulty.

We have one dungeon difficulty level and two raid difficulty levels. WoW dungeons have, practically speaking, ~30 difficulty levels (technically infinite, but 30 would mark current progress). All but three of those are "M+".

That M stands for "Mythic", which is generally the closest analog for Savage (or, for raids, bordering on our Ultimates, but with less DDR and more potential for PKs or the like across its 20 members). Mythic dungeons are, tuning-wise, no more difficult than our own Expert Roulette at min ilvl or so, but with the full slew of the dungeon's mechanics unlocked. Such would be, mechanically, "at Savage" difficulty, save that those mechanics tend to be a whole lot less "gotcha!" in their design. They include fewer one-shots are are typically more intuitive. Penalties for failure tend to wrack up instead. Granted, they can start one-shotting, especially when undergeared relative to difficulty level, as you start moving farther up the "+" difficulties. That's the gist of it. The "+" system amounts to nothing more than very fine difficulty scaling with an infinitely high ceiling, atop which some random additions have been added to vary up the dungeons on a weekly basis.

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On the broader topic:

I'll toss in some ideas I've included before:

• I'd like to see some mobs with unique mechanics, worth kiting, focusing, or even keeping alive.
  
  
• I'd like to see some longer, more involved boss fights. Soft enrage environmental mechanics especially appeal to me.
  
  
• I'd like to see multiple paths a dungeon can take to give it some variety, so long as that path is not left to the players.

  Otherwise, it'd merely source an irritating gap in knowledge as everyone is eventually herded towards the equally linear, but more convoluted, "optimal" path.

• I'd like to see more environmental dangers, including some that are dangerous to enemies.

  That said, I'd ideally like such to take an element of forethought, rather than merely stacking on enemies as in Keeper of the Lake or bringing them to tentacles as in AK-HM or Halatali-HM. I could spitball some more concrete samples if there's any interest.

And, yes, I'd happily see the Expert Roulette reward system revised as necessary (i.e., to properly scale with the content done) to better situate dungeons that are more than mere copy-pasted hallway sprint simulators.

I'm the opposite. I just want a dungeon that is visually stunning where I don't have to fight. Maybe do a jumping puzzle or something instead. Not like leap of faith though. More like something where you have to figure out riddles etc.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

I have never understood how anyone can find braindead content enjoyable.

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Because most people play games for fun and aren't required to like the same stuff as you?

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

The argument isn't that casual players don't want hardcore experiences to exist - it's that casual players don't want their content taken away from them, where more hardcoreplayers want enforced difficulty on the casual base, because they're above the line and want to feel more engaged.

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We saw this in play with Shinryu when it released. Shinryu was a very steep curve up from where the MSQ had been. It was a bottleneck for a lot of people who only did the MSQ. But when people came to the forums asking for it to be adjusted, those who thought it was easy raised hell against them. And they constantly try to claim that MSQ needs to be harder and harder because it's "preparing" everyone for the endgame content. While ignoring that a large amount of people in this game do their MSQ and don't go any further. The only thing MSQ is preparing anyone for is the next step of the MSQ.

If people want to make an argument that there should be optional content that scales up toward the harder stuff, I don't think anyone would argue with that. But it's like you said, it's when that mindset tries to claim *all* content and wants even casual content designed around what they need or want that there's an issue.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Even if those dungeons were literally optional, they would not feel that way. At the very least keep them off of any sort of progression path to keep them from feeling so mandatory. Even then, I don't want it, because it would take away resources from development of other things.

The thought of XIV players not realizing just how good they've got it and wanting to WoWify the game is horrifying.

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You may have it good, however there are plenty of us bored with the current trend of content. I literally don't touch Expert Roulette because I'm just... tired of the same linear corridor with fodder that can't possibly hurt me. That and I absolutely despise Matoya's Relict. I'd love something akin to Mythic+ or genuinely challenging dungeons because it gives me more content to do. None of that is to say I dislike casual stuff. Quite the contrary, in fact. But I also like content that will actually threatening. Unfortunately, said content is quite limited.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You may have it good, however there are plenty of us bored with the current trend of content. I literally don't touch Expert Roulette because I'm just... tired of the same linear corridor with fodder that can't possibly hurt me. That and I absolutely despise Matoya's Relict. I'd love something akin to Mythic+ or genuinely challenging dungeons because it gives me more content to do. None of that is to say I dislike casual stuff. Quite the contrary, in fact. But I also like content that will actually threatening. Unfortunately, said content is quite limited.

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Be truthful, though. Will you come to a point where you're completely happy with what you have, or will you always want more? A common thread I see in those who focus only on whether content is challenging to them is that they are never satisfied. They always want more content. I mean, you're displaying that just in this comment. How can any developer ever keep up with that? XIV has something for everyone. But that also means that we're all limited in what will appeal to us and we may need to come to a point where we're satisfied with our piece of the pie.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

But that also means that we're all limited in what will appeal to us and we may need to come to a point where we're satisfied with our piece of the pie.

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I think that its just gaming culture in general weather it be pokemon to ff14 to Dark Souls. You're always going to have that section of the fan base that will clamor for harder content, weather it be game introduced like ,min item level and no echo, or community make, like nuzelock or whatever craziness that ymfah and the Dark Souls community like to do.

Its healthy for the community to want harder content, they can take the info and develop something original for the future. If we ever reach the point were everyone is happy with what we got that will be the point where the game truly begins to die.

Personally I like my very “theatric Disneyland ride with lots of set pieces” design.

That said, if they ever decided to do more dungeons like in 2.0 that were optional/not part of any progression, then sure! Make a few that are have more mechanics in the fights or whatever.

I am all for some harder content available for the niche crowd..which we have enough of I feel. Savage, ultimate and unreal are content I will never touch outside of unsync’d when it’s super old..so anything around that level is dead content to me.

Though to be honest, you have the option to go minimum iLVL…. Or go with just 3 members? So you have the option to engage in the dungeons and make them harder for yourself…unless your complaint is that they need to be harder for everyone to which I have to say…why?

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Originally Posted by Drakonic

Dungeons have become linear corridors where the trash are meaningless and mechanics are regurgitated over and over again.

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You my friend, Nailed It! I haven't even gotten to the later Dungeons and I'm already feeling this. At least I know what to expect, more of the same. Linear is a understatement, I just hate how they all seem to be on rails. Way too much hand holding.

I also agree with your ending statement. I personally love M+, but I have a solid team and don't need to pug. I don't think that type of system would fly in this game. But I'd love to see "so-called" Ultimate type dungeons that only dropped glamour for player that like to challenge themselves. No timers, just Ultimate type difficult fun challenges. That means trash pulls too, make them tough and scary.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Be truthful, though. Will you come to a point where you're completely happy with what you have, or will you always want more? A common thread I see in those who focus only on whether content is challenging to them is that they are never satisfied. They always want more content. I mean, you're displaying that just in this comment. How can any developer ever keep up with that? XIV has something for everyone. But that also means that we're all limited in what will appeal to us and we may need to come to a point where we're satisfied with our piece of the pie.

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Truthfully, yes. At least in a realistic sense. I used to be satisfied, at least more so than I am now, but that was because I hadn't exhausted a good chunk of the content. Which is part of the problem. The sheer lack of longevity most content has means long time players will inevitably run out even if they dabble in a variety of things. You're also assuming I only do challenging content. Which isn't the case. There just... isn't enough to do in a given patch. Case in point, I found myself actually enjoying Blue Mage. Too bad its last update was in 5.45, didn't even come with a mount achievement this time around and likely won't see another update until 6.15 at the absolute earliest. That will be over a year of nothing. Now yes, Covid plays a factor in this... except Blue Mage has routinely only been updated every ten months. In other words, it's side content that while neat, doesn't take more than a couple weeks to complete if you're intentionally pacing yourself and sees updates only annually.

And most content suffers from this precise problem. So in my case, adding Mythic+ with some sense of continual longevity in frequently updated achievements, rewards and etc would help satisfy me. One of my major criticisms of Shadowbringers is so much content focused on the roleplay aspect that it often felt barren. I'm not suggesting that stuff be taken away from those who enjoy it, however I'm certainly going to voice my criticism when I have so little to do.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Truthfully, yes. At least in a realistic sense. I used to be satisfied, at least more so than I am now, but that was because I hadn't exhausted a good chunk of the content. Which is part of the problem. The sheer lack of longevity most content has means long time players will inevitably run out even if they dabble in a variety of things. You're also assuming I only do challenging content. Which isn't the case. There just... isn't enough to do in a given patch. Case in point, I found myself actually enjoying Blue Mage. Too bad its last update was in 5.45, didn't even come with a mount achievement this time around and likely won't see another update until 6.15 at the absolute earliest. That will be over a year of nothing. Now yes, Covid plays a factor in this... except Blue Mage has routinely only been updated every ten months. In other words, it's side content that while neat, doesn't take more than a couple weeks to complete if you're intentionally pacing yourself and sees updates only annually.

And most content suffers from this precise problem. So in my case, adding Mythic+ with some sense of continual longevity in frequently updated achievements, rewards and etc would help satisfy me. One of my major criticisms of Shadowbringers is so much content focused on the roleplay aspect that it often felt barren. I'm not suggesting that stuff be taken away from those who enjoy it, however I'm certainly going to voice my criticism when I have so little to do.

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I would say that the devs are on record saying they do not intend to occupy all of your potential gaming time and that, should the content not be enough for you from patch to patch, you should take a break and try other games that scratch whatever itch you need. Not saying you need to unsubscribe or quit or whatever.

Personally, everything I have is at cap, with exception of getting all of Blu done.. so I just log in and do my daily retainer money grab, chat for a few before I load up whatever other game I’m playing. Currently finished the Ori series and recommend it, especially on hard mode!

In my wife’s case, she doesn’t even touch the game outside of hanging with friends for months at a time, so that when she does find time between her dramas/Netflix, she has a good chunk of content to do.

…that said, I would love to see more things to do outside of the standard loop. Like legit engaging mini games or more interesting PvP maps or game modes.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I would say that the devs are on record saying they do not intend to occupy all of your potential gaming time and that, should the content not be enough for you from patch to patch, you should take a break and try other games that scratch whatever itch you need. Not saying you need to unsubscribe or quit or whatever.

Personally, everything I have is at cap, with exception of getting all of Blu done.. so I just log in and do my daily retainer money grab, chat for a few before I load up whatever other game I’m playing. Currently finished the Ori series and recommend it, especially on hard mode!

In my wife’s case, she doesn’t even touch the game outside of hanging with friends for months at a time, so that when she does find time between her dramas/Netflix, she has a good chunk of content to do.

…that said, I would love to see more things to do outside of the standard loop. Like legit engaging mini games or more interesting PvP maps or game modes.

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Isn't it funny how they say you should take a break from patch to patch but housing demolition is still a thing? They don't do what their words say.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

that is what Hard mode is for?

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In this game the "hard mode" in the name of the dungeons is just another word for "redesign". Most of them were easier, than the originals.

The argument that "you'll never be happy" is a pretty good strawman. Competitors have also gone from gimmick dungeons, to linear, and then back to trying to be more creative besides: rush forward, dragon wings go blap.

I think fondly of when ESO dropped a dungeon on us where you not only grappled around the dungeon (with secret areas to unlock and discover), but then used that same mechanic for it's bosses.

It was simple, but it turned what was just a usual charge and smash dungeon into something with a little more flavor. Not something you'd see in a raid or trial setting, but something that worked well in this four player adventure.
(You could also skip all the secrets, but most random people ask at the start because sweet sweet bonus loot is just too good).

I don't run dungeons on FFXIV unless it's for glamour. There's nothing for me in a reskinned boss rush, and dungeon bosses aren't exactly dripping with entertainment. Story complete and we part ways for good.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

The thought of XIV players not realizing just how good they've got it and wanting to WoWify the game is horrifying.

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Quoted for emphasis. WoW already exists; turning XIV into the [current version of] it would be a tragedy to the many, many, many of us for whom this game is nearly perfect in both style and substance.

Can't say I see much substance in the pointless dead end routes and diversions in early dungeons. FFXIV gearing towards linear dungeons that are heavier on visual spectacle and more focused on combat are 100% the right direction for this game to move in, imo.

Make the combat more challenging and add a better reward structure then we'll really have something.

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Originally Posted by Roda

Some of the ARR dungeons were really good STARTS to developing interesting dungeon experiences, but unfortunately instead of building on mechanics like the keys in Haukke, or the pads in Qarn, they've optimized the fun out of the dungeons following that era.

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Vanilla, and in some cases TBC, WoW dungeons were like this until people got tired of running them over and over and over and ended up pushing people to be the most optimally efficient they could possibly be to get through the dungeons as fast as possible due to boredom. That's how the dungeons and raids ended up becoming a one-way path of trash>boss>trash>boss>trash>ad nauseam. XIV is no different; due to simple repetition, players will end up wanting the most efficient run through the dungeons to get their daily grind over with as quickly as possible. Stopping to smell the roses is only nice the first couple of times. After that, any arbitrary delay becomes an annoyance for repeat-runners (cutscenes for new people, anyone?) that will cause people to complain that dungeons take too long/aren't optimized for quick runs to get said daily rewards.

It's a lose-lose proposition for both the dev team and players wanting more challenge and efficiency at the same time.

There was a time in this game history where the dungeons use to be good content i loved to run, not only perfectly balanced in dificulty and mechanics but on desing offering a really challenging experience, basically what i would call substance.

I used to love go into dungeons every day before SE decide they should set the bar to low that the only thing you do there is facerolling your keyboar/sitting on your gamepad to pass the "content", i loved to run roulettes even if i didn't need them just for help bcs it was fun, find a group with problems and offer advice and make them work together to finally complete that boss they strugle doing was so satisfying, i miss when content was mean to be about teamwork and not just walk together and required more than just 2 buttoms for success.

So i find pretty hilarious when someone say this is about making FFXIV to WOW when this game have a history when his dungeons use to be better, waaaaaaay better before later SB/SHB walking simulator doctrine, i hope they do better, substance is as important as style and they have just throw to much substance out the window this last years it's really boring now.

I agree, but a good portion of the community is easily amused by keys jingling so why even try.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I would say that the devs are on record saying they do not intend to occupy all of your potential gaming time and that, should the content not be enough for you from patch to patch, you should take a break and try other games that scratch whatever itch you need. Not saying you need to unsubscribe or quit or whatever.

Personally, everything I have is at cap, with exception of getting all of Blu done.. so I just log in and do my daily retainer money grab, chat for a few before I load up whatever other game I’m playing. Currently finished the Ori series and recommend it, especially on hard mode!

In my wife’s case, she doesn’t even touch the game outside of hanging with friends for months at a time, so that when she does find time between her dramas/Netflix, she has a good chunk of content to do.

…that said, I would love to see more things to do outside of the standard loop. Like legit engaging mini games or more interesting PvP maps or game modes.

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Which would be fine... if I wasn't done with content within a week or two. In fact, I did take a break throughout Verse after clearing the tier; logging in only to cap and doing literally nothing else. When I came back, I finished up all of 5.3's content by the weekend. So even with a break, there just wasn't enough. The problem is longevity. Content simply doesn't have a long enough life cycle unless you play very sparingly.

And Drakonic brings up the other problem. I can't unsub without losing my house. So the whole "take a break" aspect is a nice PR spin but not exactly feasible.

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

Vanilla, and in some cases TBC, WoW dungeons were like this until people got tired of running them over and over and over and ended up pushing people to be the most optimally efficient they could possibly be to get through the dungeons as fast as possible due to boredom. That's how the dungeons and raids ended up becoming a one-way path of trash>boss>trash>boss>trash>ad nauseam. XIV is no different; due to simple repetition, players will end up wanting the most efficient run through the dungeons to get their daily grind over with as quickly as possible. Stopping to smell the roses is only nice the first couple of times. After that, any arbitrary delay becomes an annoyance for repeat-runners (cutscenes for new people, anyone?) that will cause people to complain that dungeons take too long/aren't optimized for quick runs to get said daily rewards.

It's a lose-lose proposition for both the dev team and players wanting more challenge and efficiency at the same time.

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I think this is incredibly important.
People love to get on their forums, their discords, and genuinely critique (or just rage) about certain aspects of the game,

But the thing is, the majority of the playerbase pushed it like this.

These designs are a direct representation of what the players are doing, despite what they may say.
I think its good you brought up WoW, I do, as it's the longest running consecutive MMO and a good pointer for general MMO design and how it changes. They did also tried this, and then stopped. We all love pretty things and interesting things, but the core gameplay loop of an MMO is grind, and grind does not lend itself to a long patience. How many of us have had videos up playing in the background while running Aurum Vale for the 310th time on our last trip to 80?

For most people it stops being about enjoying the world, design, or even combat, and simply ticking a box.
Take a look at all the people complaining about the Bozjan front and DR. This is still new content for a lot of people, and yet, they're already getting shamed on the forums for not knowing the fights well and not being the most efficient. People just want efficiency. They want to get in, and get out in 20 minutes or less.


I personally would LOVE to see a return to form in FFXIV's case, but I know, genuinely and with a tinge of nostalgia, that will never return. It's not what the majority playerbase wants.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Which would be fine... if I wasn't done with content within a week or two. In fact, I did take a break throughout Verse after clearing the tier; logging in only to cap and doing literally nothing else. When I came back, I finished up all of 5.3's content by the weekend. So even with a break, there just wasn't enough. The problem is longevity. Content simply doesn't have a long enough life cycle unless you play very sparingly.

And Drakonic brings up the other problem. I can't unsub without losing my house. So the whole "take a break" aspect is a nice PR spin but not exactly feasible.

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That's just not their game design, though, and they've made that abundantly clear. This game will never be a never-ending fount of stimulation. They give us content and if we need stimulation outside that, they expect we'll look entirely outside this game or find ways to stimulate ourselves, ie achievement/mount/minion chasing, Gold Saucer, glamour, etc.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

That's just not their game design, though, and they've made that abundantly clear. This game will never be a never-ending fount of stimulation. They give us content and if we need stimulation outside that, they expect we'll look entirely outside this game or find ways to stimulate ourselves, ie achievement/mount/minion chasing, Gold Saucer, glamour, etc.

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Where it I ever imply an "never-ending fount of stimulation?" You really need to stop making these assumptions. I'm neither expecting nor asking for endless content but rather some longevity in the content offered so I have a reason to keep playing beyond a couple weeks. A patch cycle doesn't need to entertain for sixteen weeks, but it should last more than two or three. Or rather have something like Mythic+, a more developed Deep Dungeon and etc for players that enjoy a more lengthily content grind.

Regardless, I'm well accustom to their design philosophy but am allowed to criticise it.

I just hope we see more content along the lines of Delubrum Reginae as we move forward. Everything from the atmosphere to the story to the mechanics appealed to me. It's not insanely difficult but neither can players just get by through standing in AoE's and shrugging them off.

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Originally Posted by Bacent

Would like some mechanics where the 4 players are split up to do a small puzzle or something and can only get to the boss when all 4 players do what's needed. Or have some sneak off during a boss fight to trigger something/ect.

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This would be super cool.