Why is the Maturity Lvl of People Playing this game so much higher than that of WoW?

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Originally Posted by Fluxating

There's nothing "Elitist" about expecting people going into content designed for a certain skill level to be able to meet that level. A tank or healer not knowing how to play their job properly, that's probably a wipe. A DPS not pulling thier weight due to not knowing how their job plays? Not likely to pass that DPS check, resulting in a wipe. Messing up and making a mistake is fine but going into, say, a savage encounter without a basic understanding of what that entails, with no knowledge of your job and unwillingness to learn, instead just complaining and blaming everyone but yourself and expecting to be carried? That's selfish, entitled and actively wasting the time of 7 other players. That's "toxic casualism".

I would never join a clear party for a fight I haven't at least practiced beforehand on Summoner, a job I never play outside of leveing it, but plently of people do. A lot.

Saying it's "just a video game meant to be fun" is hypocritical as you're denying others legitimate idea of fun, in this case working together as a group to overcome a difficult encounter, to justify you own opinions. People are allowed to play the game how they want, but if you waste the time of others by going into content you are not prepared for or willing to learn, they are within their right to tell you to sling your hook.

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Correct, but this way of thinking is bad nowadays. Expecting people to pull their weight is considered having a negative attitude while just a few years ago it was expected as part of our daily survival skills

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Fun is subjective.

For many players the fun in MMO instances is in the fact that a lot of content is a team based activity that you get through together as a group. Working together with people to beat content is fun for them. Toxic elitism is expecting high end performance in casual content, which is unnecessary. Mistakes, deaths, wipes and learning is fine if someone is trying. However, "toxic casualism" is where one players comes in and works against the team, say an Ice mage with gear 50ilv too low and reacts aggressively towards tips because not bothering is more "fun" for them. In this case one person is disregarding the overall experience and fun for 3-7 other people playing the game as intended, to prioritize their own fun. Sort of like joining football team and insisting on using a tennis racquet because it's just a game and it's meant to be fun.

This selfish attitude and feeling of entitlement to having everything their way and being carried, regardless of others, is unique to the western playerbase. It is not the sort of behavior things like parser bans were designed for.

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And if everyone was competent and worked well together all group content would be an absolute roflstomp including the high end group content, the game is not designed to require anywhere near this level of performance because it is a video game, not someone's main source of self worth or a job, so even if someone is performing below average in a group you can still do the content JUST FINE.

The issue seems to be that people who have attached their ego on their performance seem to have a really huge dislike of those casuals who dont obsess over it in a game that neither asks nor requires it unless you start telling me those people who want to play "ice mage" joined your ultimate group, it is actually a good thing not everyone is great otherwise the content would be an absolutely boring roflstomp all the way up. Carrying people is normal, you do that with your friends, you do that in your guild, you do that in roulettes all day and as long as the content does not require everyone to be performing great there is literally 0 problem with people who play a game for fun, not for parsing and to get self worth through video game performance. Now if the group is below average and seem to have problems and instead try to blame the one person below them, then sorry you failed as a group, not because of that one person considering how generous the requirements are for most of group content.

Thankfully this game is very different than WoW which is exactly why I like it and the community so much more, because that elitist attitude doesnt fly.

And I ll remind you that a video game is about having fun, not being forced to play or do something for the sake of someone ELSE's fun.

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Originally Posted by Fluxating

A tank or healer not knowing how to play their job properly, that's probably a wipe.

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And you know what we did during those rare times? We voted to abandon, no drama, no angry attacks, no whining, we simply moved on and kept having fun in the video game we play instead of pretending some kind of disaster has befallen us

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

And you know what we did during those rare times? We voted to abandon, no drama, no angry attacks, no whining, we simply moved on and kept having fun in the video game we play instead of pretending some kind of disaster has befallen us

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Except it isn't rare. It happens constantly. That's why these "Elitists" are fed up, because there are far too many people whining because they don't want to put any effort into improving and throw tantrums instead. It's not just the raids either, it happened with Chrysalis in 2.5, Shinryu during the first couple of weeks of Stormblood, as well as Hades in Shadowbringers. Content requiring just a basic understanding of the game just to progress the story, and far too many couldn't even manage that. Having a basic understanding on how the game works and how to play it to get past that level of content isn't difficult, but some people still don't want to put that small amount of effort in and complain when no one wants to carry them through it.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Honestly when I see people using the term "toxic casualism" I actually feel happy and hopeful for the game because at the end of the day it is just a video game meant to be fun, toxic casualism means that attempts from the "elitists" to tell people how to play and push their performance gogogo based attitude are met with very negative reactions so unlike WoW they cant turn or shape this game into an elitist tryhard mess because people recognize what they are trying to do and shut them off.

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Eh... it's not that simple, but I think we can see some high-end players (perhaps it could be those more accustomed to WoW's more "direct" cultural norms) chaffing under the enforced requirement to behave themselves.

I'm also seeing a lot of both accentuating the negative here, with those who are preferring FFXIV highlighting their negative experiences from WoW... and those who dislike FFXIV's stronger moderation come across as a bit paranoid and are quick to point out people lashing out at them with statements like "You don't pay my sub!". In my experience, I honestly have not run into the latter at any point in FFXIV; while I've been an observer of WoW's more explosive community on many occasions. Anyhow, it's definitely easier to remember the negative experiences compared to the positive ones for most people.

My own behaviour did not change going from WoW to FFXIV, and I have been a hard-ass when needed; the one trick I think many don't realize is that requires a careful approach so that you don't come off as being antagonistic.

If I were to put together a basic set of guidelines on how to do so:

• Try to stick to giving explicit directions. This can be things like telling people to dodge right or left, in or out depending on a boss' less explicit telegraphs. Basically, doing call-outs for the fight; doing this out of habit also gets players accustomed to you saying things which can be a bit blunt.
• Address the group as a whole as much as possible. Unless there's a specific reason, such telling the last healer up to use LB3 or which DPS should be using LB3, don't name people.
• Avoid criticism in general, and especially don't single people out for criticism. If you must point out an error, be specific about it. Say what the error was and how to correct it.
• Acknowledge your own errors... and even throw in some self-depreciating humour in there, which helps offset you being harsh when necessary.
• When players improve and do things right, acknowledge it. Don't act as if it's nothing and expected, which makes you come off as being a jerk; saying "good job" when people do it right goes a LONG way.
• If things aren't going to work out... just say it's not working and leave it at that. Going on tear towards the group just makes everyone miserable. Treat it as "step back and think about it for a while".

In other words, lead by example.
Don't be bossy, be the guy who helps the team out.

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Originally Posted by Fluxating

There's nothing "Elitist" about expecting people going into content designed for a certain skill level to be able to meet that level. A tank or healer not knowing how to play their job properly, that's probably a wipe. A DPS not pulling thier weight due to not knowing how their job plays? Not likely to pass that DPS check, resulting in a wipe. Messing up and making a mistake is fine but going into, say, a savage encounter without a basic understanding of what that entails, with no knowledge of your job and unwillingness to learn, instead just complaining and blaming everyone but yourself and expecting to be carried? That's selfish, entitled and actively wasting the time of 7 other players. That's "toxic casualism".

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You can bring that attitude to Savage/Ultimate/Extreme, and that's good. You should expect people at that level to be decent at it.

The trouble is when that attitude and attention to other people's play instead of taking care of your own play, is extended to normal and leveling content. At Normal and the Hard/Heroic level, people need to learn, and, some won't, but, that is expected by the game designers. Basically, when you start getting on everyone else around you about gameplay *at normal or hard difficulty*...you're being a jerk. Don't do it. Go calm down, or go run something savage/ultimate/extreme where you and your mentality belongs.

I'm a good player, but I stopped running extreme/savage/ultimate *because of* people with your mentality, who won't ease off for new people or low difficulty, and frankly, are always looking for someone to blame for anything at all that goes wrong. I was a raid main tank for 7 years. I know how to dodge things, and, frankly, in leveling stuff in FFXIV, I can carry a person if need be. Don't need rage or screaming at people at that level. Isn't needed, it serves no purpose. Don't do it.

It's only a game. Don't tie your self-worth or the worth of anyone else to it, please.

I always say when at something new myself or am more experienced... that they most likely would die a few times in a good sense... mainly because you can really only explain it that well, but you need to try it on your own body first to see how it actually act out.

That is why so many vidoes is inaccurate and when or if have to got and watch them... first of all ignore the persons when speakign nonsense, shut it out... but pay attention when showing mechanics only as in only take what you can actually use.... and also be open to other solutions in how to dodge stuff, as it is out there and does not always reflect one way only.

It helps.. also savage and ultimates can be cleared by anyone as long as got the motivation to do so, it is not as elite as claimed as casual people manege to get through it as well.

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Originally Posted by KeshLives

You can bring that attitude to Savage/Ultimate/Extreme, and that's good. You should expect people at that level to be decent at it.

The trouble is when that attitude and attention to other people's play instead of taking care of your own play, is extended to normal and leveling content. At Normal and the Hard/Heroic level, people need to learn, and, some won't, but, that is expected by the game designers. Basically, when you start getting on everyone else around you about gameplay *at normal or hard difficulty*...you're being a jerk. Don't do it. Go calm down, or go run something savage/ultimate/extreme where you and your mentality belongs.

I'm a good player, but I stopped running extreme/savage/ultimate *because of* people with your mentality, who won't ease off for new people or low difficulty, and frankly, are always looking for someone to blame for anything at all that goes wrong. I was a raid main tank for 7 years. I know how to dodge things, and, frankly, in leveling stuff in FFXIV, I can carry a person if need be. Don't need rage or screaming at people at that level. Isn't needed, it serves no purpose. Don't do it.

It's only a game. Don't tie your self-worth or the worth of anyone else to it, please.

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Funny how expecting a certain level of competency is being a jerk, but wasting their time or insulting them is perfecting fine...

Also wanting to clear content doesn't automatically make it about self-worth, but nice attempt at a strawman anyway.

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Originally Posted by Fluxating

Funny how expecting a certain level of competency is being a jerk, but wasting their time or insulting them is perfecting fine...

Also wanting to clear content doesn't automatically make it about self-worth, but nice attempt at a strawman anyway.

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Standard WoW player response. Have a nice day. GGHF and all that.

You're obviously *more important* than all those scrubs around you, so you should *of course* do whatever you like. /sarc

This community really seems to forget that learning, or overcoming a 'barrier' is not an immediate, but rather a progressive thing, and trying to force it as immediate is only ever going to trigger poor responses. You aren't going to see an immense or immediate improvement from the normality of the player base.

and no, being passive-aggressive or condescending with advice isn't going to win you a golden star with many people either.

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Originally Posted by Fluxating

Funny how expecting a certain level of competency is being a jerk, but wasting their time or insulting them is perfecting fine...

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Some people need to adjust their expectations for the content they're doing. Most do but some don't. Some think the sort of performance required in savage should also be done in normal mode even though that's far above the requirement to complete the content. The flip side happens too. Some people think that if what they do in normal mode is fine then it should be fine in savage even though that could be below the requirement. There are people on both sides who need to adjust their expectations. Not saying you are one of these people, just speaking generally.

And some people need to accept the fact that bad players are unavoidable. They're in every single game. Sure it may suck if you feel that you can't criticise them openly due to how SE views harassment, but lets face it; those who want to learn will learn at some point with or without your input, and those who don't won't ever improve no matter what they're told. And anyone who thinks being able to openly criticise would improve things I can tell you from my time in WoW being able to openly criticise people doesn't magically make the playerbase more skilled. There are plenty of terrible players in WoW.

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Originally Posted by KeshLives

You should expect people at that level to be decent at it.

It's only a game. Don't tie your self-worth or the worth of anyone else to it, please.

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Imo that attitude doesn’t belong anywhere really because of basic math.

Let me give you an example with numbers

100% performance, that would be perfect performance in a target dummy
93% performance, that would be perfect play within an encounter (obviously depends on encounter)
80% performance, that would be an example of a good/decent player within an encounter.

Now in an encounter there is a require common bar performance ‘required’ to beat the encounter, that performance % gets higher the higher content you do and that group wide number but obviously it is never 90%, it is very often far below what the elite believe it is since they want to believe they achieved something great but even in extreme the group wide performance requirement can be as low as 60% or even less, there’s always a big gar between a good player and the performance requirement of almost all group content.

Of course it never happens that everyone in the group is at 60% performance, there’s always good players and below average players, your group might have someone at 40% performance which is below ‘required’ performance yet if you have someone who is at 80% which makes the encounter doable just fine, some elitist would say that the good player shouldn’t ‘carry scrubs’ yet this feeling only exists because they have forgotten this is a video game and not their source or self worth so they love to try to push ‘scrubs’ further down to tell themselves they are elite and superior again IN A VIDEO GAME.

You would think these ‘elite’ players would revel in the chance to try play better in order to get the group ahead with their skill but nope, gotta blame the average player whose ego isn’t based on video game performance.

*obviously gear also plays a major part in influencing that % but this is an example

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Originally Posted by Raelsar

Eh... it's not that simple, but I think we can see some high-end players (perhaps it could be those more accustomed to WoW's more "direct" cultural norms) chaffing under the enforced requirement to behave themselves.

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Which is exactly why I remind them that this ain’t WoW, that tryhard elitist attitude isn’t tolerated

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Originally Posted by Raelsar

In other words, lead by example.
Don't be bossy, be the guy who helps the team out.

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Pretty much this, if I see a mistake happening in a fight I don’t start raging at that person, I say something neutral like ‘be careful to avoid stacking lighting, it is an one shot’, nobody is targeted, nobody is insulted, nobody pretends to be better than others to putting people down, someone is merely saying how the fight works which is very very very different than than telling people what to do because you have deluded yourself you are some elite who deserves the respect of others in a VIDEO GAME.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

You would think these ‘elite’ players would revel in the chance to try play better in order to get the group ahead with their skill but nope, gotta blame the average player whose ego isn’t based on video game performance.

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Well, the truly elite players don't do this.

It's the tryhards who *think* they are elite and feel they 'need' to be recognized as elite that cause the problems. They're the ones who look for someone to blame, instead of looking to themselves. I see it in real life, too, so it's just a manifestation in game of the same people you see irl who *must have someone to blame*. Taking responsibility for themselves is unheard of. They're perfect, and already know all there is to know.

Just people. The less you have of this type, the better off you are. Thankfully, FFXIV discourages these people. WoW does not.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Some people need to adjust their expectations for the content they're doing. Most do but some don't. Some think the sort of performance required in savage should also be done in normal mode even though that's far above the requirement to complete the content. The flip side happens too. Some people think that if what they do in normal mode is fine then it should be fine in savage even though that could be below the requirement. There are people on both sides who need to adjust their expectations. Not saying you are one of these people, just speaking generally.

And some people need to accept the fact that bad players are unavoidable. They're in every single game. Sure it may suck if you feel that you can't criticise them openly due to how SE views harassment, but lets face it; those who want to learn will learn at some point with or without your input, and those who don't won't ever improve no matter what they're told. And anyone who thinks being able to openly criticise would improve things I can tell you from my time in WoW being able to openly criticise people doesn't magically make the playerbase more skilled. There are plenty of terrible players in WoW.

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True, everyone learns differently and at different speeds, some try to improve and see very little results while others just flat out refuse. You're also right that those players will always exist, and with the player base growing they are becoming more common. however I don't believe that expecting a level 80 player to know what a stack marker is wrong, that being met with hostility for offering advice to someone who repeatedly fails mechanics is somehow ok or even accepted, that being fed up and speaking out about that subset of the playerbase somehow puts you in the wrong.

I used to really enjoy helping out new players back during ARR and HW, now I rarely even bother as it hardly seems worth the time to try.

I've been playing this game for 3 years, and only twice I remember being the victim of toxic players. Those 2 times playes banded together to mock my playstyle and insult me, and tell me to uninstall the game. One time was in thornmarch hard, I was the offtank with no tank stance, the main tank died and I didn't notice and didn't pick aggro, so the moogles killed everyone and we wiped. I was having a really bad day, everyone put the blame on me and mocked me. I felt really sad, put the loudest ones on blacklist and that was that. Another time, I was a white mage farming antitower for the relic. I only did holy and assize, doing maximum damage and no one died ever. I had everything in control. But the tank thought me letting him on 20% health without heals (because I was in control and knew he wouldn't die) was a crime and banded together with the friend he queued with and said how I was a terrible healer, and should uninstall the game, among other ridicule. I just blacklisted and went on with my day.


Those were the only 2 times in 3 years I was a victim of toxicity. On FCs there were annoying people and petty fc drama but this exists in any game. In general I find this community to be very friendly and helpful, I don't understand how some pepole claim it's worse than wow... I've seen people claim ffxiv has the most toxic community of any online game. This is insane, it's like people are desperate to put flaws on this game. And no, talking behind people's back and being passive aggressive is not the same as people attacking / kicking newbies from dungeons, being overtly toxic and saying racist and homophobic slurs. One is actually worse than the other, even if both are bad.

Hoo boy, just come back to this thread after few days and it turns into 'elitism vs casualism'. Well anyway...

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Originally Posted by Fluxating

... however I don't believe that expecting a level 80 player to know what a stack marker is wrong, that being met with hostility for offering advice to someone who repeatedly fails mechanics is somehow ok or even accepted, that being fed up and speaking out about that subset of the playerbase somehow puts you in the wrong.

I used to really enjoy helping out new players back during ARR and HW, now I rarely even bother as it hardly seems worth the time to try.

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While I strongly agree with your stance here, sometimes there's just nothing better we can do but to stay silent because how differently SE views 'harassment'-cases compared to us lots. It is ingrained in their culture that being very direct are often seen as being rude. They would prefer to just back off from the scene without expressing their discomfort too obviously. This is why i.e. savage DF actually works in JP DC (works, as in letting the queue pops). Whether the run is a success or not is another different story; but when things go awry, all they say will be something like "Ah, I don't think this duty can be finished with this party... let's just leave and try another time." before voting to disband and call it a day. Rather than telling people upfront, they would rather leave players having some 'self reflection' moments to find their mistakes.

NA DC (Idk about EU) obviously comes with different culture ingrained in their mind so ... *BAM*, surprise :rolleyes:
Unless SE decides to take account of this difference, we're pretty much stuck to what we have right now (and have to deal with sheer amount of passive aggressiveness when things goes south, if any at all.)

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Originally Posted by Starshower

In general I find this community to be very friendly and helpful, I don't understand how some pepole claim it's worse than wow... I've seen people claim ffxiv has the most toxic community of any online game. This is insane, it's like people are desperate to put flaws on this game.

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Yeah it is hard to imagine anyone saying that with a serious face, the only reason I can imagine anyone saying that is if they have not actually played WoW or played WoW but have not pugged anything, WoW has one of the most toxic communities next to LoL and because the game is designed for the high end at the expense of more casual content if you want gear progression, you either suffer and accept the toxicity or leave, which is what many people are doing leaving the toxic tryhards to make the community even worse and even more unfriendly to new and casual players which makes you wonder how long can WoW last on tryhards and whales buying tokens for boosts (since that is what brings them a ton of profit based on their last quarterly report).

Honestly coming from WoW i am loving this community cuz it is friendly, helpful, nice and keeps pushing forward, I like doing extreme trials while on that expansion's content and I ve been using duty finder for it(JP dc), there have been some extreme trials like the later heavenswards ones which we had a number of wipes but we were improving each time so everyone kept pushing and we killed the boss just fine after people got used to the mechanics, there is was no drama, no insults, people just explained how X thing worked and because we were clearly getting closer there was no reason to vote to abandon which you would do if it was clear the group wouldnt beat it.

Plus it makes beating it after a few wipes even more fun, but then you have the tryhards who act if people arent at max performance at all time the world will collapse or if a single wipe in content that barely requires 50% performance is the worst thing that has happened to their life, I ve died in Thronmarch extreme once because the tank wasnt tanking the tankable ads and I didnt feel angry or bad, it was clearly a basic mistake that is easy to fix, it happens lul, we are gonna reset and kill it, BIG DEAL!

Thankfully SE has a good ToS so the type of toxicity you suffered is severely punishable.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Thankfully SE has a good ToS so the type of toxicity you suffered is severely punishable.

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Honestly I don't know what's wrong with me, I think my heart must be too good, because I didn't even report those people. It would've sucked for them if they lost their account. I don't want it to happen to me so I wouldn't push that on anyone.

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Originally Posted by Starshower

Honestly I don't know what's wrong with me, I think my heart must be too good, because I didn't even report those people. It would've sucked for them if they lost their account. I don't want it to happen to me so I wouldn't push that on anyone.

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Oh, I think you're fine. You're talking about three incidents, not the same people any of the times. I would have let it go myself.

Just the threat keeps people with ideas like that from doing much, if they think about it, here in FFXIV. Not worth it. Unfortunately, other games, no real mechanism to slow them exists.

no it isn't lol as someone who has been playing since the beta that is not true NOBODY that i've met in the duty finder can handle any single bit on critcism with any ounce of maturity plus the average age has gone down and the whole free to play situation AND people from world of warcraft ARE NEVER MATURE they are incapable of this as every single wow player is immature and arrogant

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Hoo boy, just come back to this thread after few days and it turns into 'elitism vs casualism'. Well anyway...

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rule 1 of GD:

Given enough time, every thread turns into elite vs. casual.

Honestly it really isn't. The only reason you think people are much nicer in this game is because SE holds a gun to their head telling them to be nice. Can guarantee if you're messing up left and right in a dungeon or 8man, the other people in your party are telling their FC about it. I'd much rather have someone say it to my face than talk to the FC behind me like we're in high school.

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Originally Posted by cdfgfxghf

people from world of warcraft ARE NEVER MATURE they are incapable of this as every single wow player is immature and arrogant

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Hmm. Pot, you need to meet Kettle. Might be instructive.

(You sound exactly like those same immature WoW players you're griping about.)

Have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

rule 1 of GD:

Given enough time, every thread turns into elite vs. casual.

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First linked this in another thread, but it does have some relevance to this discussion.

First off, "the chart":
https://i1.wp.com/quanticfoundry.com...tion-map-1.png
Source: https://quanticfoundry.com/2015/12/2...g-motivations/

Now, the three "high-level" groups:

• Action-Social (red group)
• Mastery-Achievement (blue group)
• Immersion-Creativity (yellow group)

And to quickly summarize, "Mastery-Achievement" is the "game-space"; it's the activities outlined by the game itself and all directly associated elements. All the other groups interact in this particular area... and if we want to get technical, "hardcore" players should belong to this group as they're the ones who get the most into the granular details of the game itself.

But the casual-hardcore divide we commonly see is NOT linked to this group.

To tell the truth, it's more of a misnomer. The "casual-hardcore divide" is more closely related to the other two groups, or to be more specific, why they are both interacting in the "game-space". Those who are specifically interested in the game details purely for the sake of doing so are a bit rare.

Lacking space here, but:
"Action-Social" corresponds to the "hardcore" crowd.
"Immersion-Creativity" corresponds to the "casual" crowd.

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Moving away from the discussion over the divide, WoW and FFXIV actually frame a distinct separation between the "Action-Social" and "Immersion-Creativity" groups.

WoW caters to the "Action-Social" group, especially with how the game has evolved. Considering Blizzard's forte outside of WoW is competitive online games (RTS games beforehand, other genres now), this is probably unsurprising. However, due to the game being the "breakout hit" for the MMORPG genre, it attracted all groups -- including a large contingent of the "Immersion-Creativity" group, who were mostly interested in getting immersed into the world itself. But over the years, they've increasingly neglected this group.

FFXIV caters to the "Immersion-Creativity" group, and for good reason -- this is the "traditional RPG crowd", doubly so when it comes to JRPGs. While they do have a bit for the "Action-Social" group with high difficulty content, the game is clearly not built around it like WoW now is.

In any case, because "competition" is a strong factor for the Action-Social group... proper behaviour and politeness aren't always a priority. Unless it serves a specific purpose for them, they won't bother with it. On the other hand, the Immersion-Creativity group tend to enjoy quiet and solitary activities; they're naturally more polite and courteous, possibly because that's how they want to be treated themselves and will extend the same behaviour to others.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

Honestly it really isn't. The only reason you think people are much nicer in this game is because SE holds a gun to their head telling them to be nice. Can guarantee if you're messing up left and right in a dungeon or 8man, the other people in your party are telling their FC about it. I'd much rather have someone say it to my face than talk to the FC behind me like we're in high school.

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Not necessarily. Every group is different and some care more about the results than others, but at the end of the day most of us longer running mmoers have already realized that everyone is a screw up, so therefore no one is. You can't judge someone by their performance in a few weeks of content. You have to judge them based on their performance over an extended period of time and what they are doing to correct or improve. If someone isn't correcting or improving because they have time issues or they just got life getting in the way, and it is putting the group behind, you pull them aside and you talk to them to figure out the solution. What do you think is going to be the benefit of slandering them? Tell me how it feels later in life when you realize the guy you bad mouthed is physically disabled, or had an accident and is trying his best to perform, not wanting to say anything because he is embarassed to do so. Sit back, talk it out, and come up with a solution.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Not necessarily. Every group is different and some care more about the results than others, but at the end of the day most of us longer running mmoers have already realized that everyone is a screw up, so therefore no one is. You can't judge someone by their performance in a few weeks of content. You have to judge them based on their performance over an extended period of time and what they are doing to correct or improve. If someone isn't correcting or improving because they have time issues or they just got life getting in the way, and it is putting the group behind, you pull them aside and you talk to them to figure out the solution. What do you think is going to be the benefit of slandering them? Tell me how it feels later in life when you realize the guy you bad mouthed is physically disabled, or had an accident and is trying his best to perform, not wanting to say anything because he is embarassed to do so. Sit back, talk it out, and come up with a solution.

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None of what you just said had anything to do with what I did.

It's not , I mean generally yes people are politer and alot less selfish but it does have it's share of some of the self centered elements that wow had some may be from wow others form other mmos but the fact remains that they do exist. However the reporting and reward system I feel is the largest reason. the reports here are taken seriously and both parties are eventually listened too and then there is the reward for polite behavior in the form of future mounts . eventually being alot more polite and patient just becomes the norm.

Just met some wow players the mood was completely off. Arrogant and full of drama. Wish they all stay in wow.

With a sample size large enough, monkey can type out hamlet. This game starts out to be one of the best community ever, with time passing, things are guaranteed to happen. It's not the game, or the community's fault. We are all in this together.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

Honestly it really isn't. The only reason you think people are much nicer in this game is because SE holds a gun to their head telling them to be nice.

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I mean does it matter? This has produced a better environment, people arent asking if people are more mature internally, they are talking about the external image the community has and that is one that is far better, friendly and nicer than WoW which is quite the opposite and full of toxicity in all levels of play.

If western Gamers TM need a gun to their head in order to behave, that sounds like they are the problem that needs to be fixed.

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

Just met some wow players the mood was completely off. Arrogant and full of drama. Wish they all stay in wow.

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I doubt the more tryhard elitist refugees will stay long once they realize doing high end content doesnt make them special, better or more deserving of dev resources since the game is made for all, not just them unlike WoW who pretty much doubled down on focusing on high end more than usual on their latest xpac. Doing high end content doesnt mean you are more important than everyone else here thankfully.

Acting mature, is something only a child would do.

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Honestly it really isn't. The only reason you think people are much nicer in this game is because SE holds a gun to their head telling them to be nice.

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If by that you mean the TOS and codes of behaviour are enforced, yes they are, and glad I am of it. See, I dont need to worry about the TOS, I dont need to be told to mind my manners or not swear and scream at people, I already know this, as thats whats called civilised behaviour.

Recently I saw someone comment that why should they not be allowed to swear as 'theres a filter", it really comes down to this:

If whatever it is you want to say cannot ever be said to that persons face, then dont say it. Treat people with basic common decency and kindness, practice some tolerance and a modicum of patience and as my own mother ( Love you to bits, Mum ) taught me, self control and maturity means knowing when to hold your tongue.

Treat people as you would wish to be treated yourself, think before you type, when in doubt, take two or three deep breaths and count to ten. Then comment in a calm and measured tone, which, trust me, will be a huge improvement on what you wanted to say originally.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Treat people as you would wish to be treated yourself

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bold of you to assume I don't get off on the mudslinging

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

bold of you to assume I don't get off on the mudslinging

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Of course Im bold..Im a Red Mage..well..sometimes I am...:cool::cool:

ffxiv players have this weird obsession with comparing the game to wow

((This applies mostly to high-end content; These days most 'elite' players I know are just kind of amused by really bad people in dungeons and find the stories fun to share))

People who try to make you out to be a bad person for respecting your own time are simply in on the grift.

When someone's performance is so poor that they put massive unfair strain on other players, or waste large amounts of other peoples time, it absolutely should be acceptable to speak with them openly about it, and to remove them from the party if necessary.

I probably wasted upwards of 30 hours of my life pugging an E12S clear on Crystal, due to the sheer amount of people willing to lie about their progression, or join on alternate classes they didn't actually know how to play. We even had more than one occasion of someone who had never cleared the first phase of the fight using our clear P2 party to get carried through a P1 clear, only to pretend they had internet problems and DC immediately. I don't think I was in a single P2 party that didn't have to explain basic relativity to someone.

I typically find it's more common for bad players to have exaggerated issues with their ego and self-worth in-game. They often spend a lot of time looking for excuses or ways to put down and undermine players that are just tangibly better than they are; It's really common to see 'casual' players inventing entirely new, totally arbitrary standards to rate others by which allow them to elevate their own play in some way. These kinds of weird ego issues are exactly what leads to the high propensity for trapping parties in this game.

Bad players spend months convincing themselves that they're better than other people and deserve things from other people for no particular reason; In my time in E12S I sat in many many calls where people gave long-winded rants and speeches about how they "Just haven't had a party that can do it yet" and they "never make mistakes" and feel they should join a party three mechanics ahead of what they actually know. Of course, these people often turn out to be the least consistent members of any given party. They've just warped reality to suit the needs of their ego, and will absolutely go join a party they don't belong in, only to ruin the experience and waste the time of 7 other people.

The point is, in this game it's often made to feel dangerous or wrong to try to hold these types of people accountable, despite that what they're doing is plainly amoral and harmful to others. Other people, who are likely guilty of the same behaviors, will readily jump in to defend these types of people because they're really just selfishly interested in defending themselves by proxy.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

The point is, in this game it's often made to feel dangerous or wrong to try to hold these types of people accountable.

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Why do people act as if explaining a mechanic that was failed is gonna get them banned? I myself had to explain mechanics when I show some people have issues with it without targeting or attacking anyone, saying things like ‘try to avoid stacking lightning because it hurts a lot” or “try have markers placed in X so there’s a safe place on the ground Y’, those don’t target or insult anyone but simply inform them of what went wrong because it is possible for them to not be aware. This normalization of targeting a player directly is thankfully not allowed here and for good reason, not only to reduce toxicity but to also improve the community because if someone does a mistake they respond far better to reading what went wrong to someone who directly names and shames them which leads to even worse drama but tryhards don’t really care about other people to think about that.

Yes there are people who don’t know/remember all the mechanics, and because they know pugs can have elitist jerks who behave as if everyone should have done/know the fight when it was released they are forced to lie to get in since they want to do the fight and never ask for advice because they know they might get kicked so it is easier for them to stay silent when a screw up happens and try find what went wrong themselves rather than ask someone more experienced who knows exactly what went wrong.

The system SE has is a good one because it forces people to behave and have manners, unlike almost all other mmos who let toxic people run rampart because hiring Gms to enforce the ToS is too counterintuitive to their profits.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Why do people act as if explaining a mechanic that was failed is gonna get them banned? I myself had to explain mechanics when I show some people have issues with it without targeting or attacking anyone, saying things like ‘try to avoid stacking lightning because it hurts a lot” or “try have markers placed in X so there’s a safe place on the ground Y’, those don’t target or insult anyone but simply inform them of what went wrong because it is possible for them to not be aware. This normalization of targeting a player directly is thankfully not allowed here and for good reason, not only to reduce toxicity but to also improve the community because if someone does a mistake they respond far better to reading what went wrong to someone who directly names and shames them which leads to even worse drama but tryhards don’t really care about other people to think about that.

Yes there are people who don’t know/remember all the mechanics, and because they know pugs can have elitist jerks who behave as if everyone should have done/know the fight when it was released they are forced to lie to get in since they want to do the fight and never ask for advice because they know they might get kicked so it is easier for them to stay silent when a screw up happens and try find what went wrong themselves rather than ask someone more experienced who knows exactly what went wrong.

The system SE has is a good one because it forces people to behave and have manners, unlike almost all other mmos who let toxic people run rampart because hiring Gms to enforce the ToS is too counterintuitive to their profits.

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Sometimes it doesn't matter whether the advices are positively worded or not. You can try to be as positive & encouraging with your wording as possible---heck, add emoji as an 'insurance' that your intention are good & pure if you're that kind of player---and there will still be obnoxious players who somehow can twist the words against themselves and be offended when they're called out/given advice. Once they're 'offended', additionally there's also some probability of 'white knighting'-phenomena coming from fellow party mate if you're unlucky; these odds suddenly made whoever tries to be helpful be the 'bad one'. These are the ones we're trying to avoid dealing with. There's no 'win-win' solution to this.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm all for giving advices as positively as possible (i.e. leave the salt out). The thing is these players probably also had a fair share of their bad times while giving advices and inclined to protect themselves before trying to save something else. Personally I'd rather bail out or see if the other prompt a vote kick/disband after seeing such mess.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

You can try to be as positive & encouraging with your wording as possible---heck, add emoji as an 'insurance' that your intention are good & pure if you're that kind of player---and there will still be obnoxious players who somehow can twist the words against themselves and be offended when they're called out/given advice..

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Again I am absolutely against targeting specific players in any way like that, which is why when there’s a problem I talk about the mechanic without directly mentioning anyone, I am quite literally just explaining how the mechanic works with no targets, no salt or even negative implications and use words like ‘try’ or ‘be careful of’ instead of tryhard ‘commands’ like ‘do x’, ‘this is wrong, do it that way’ the way things are worded is very important.

I am not saying it is impossible for someone to really twist what I specifically said in such an extreme way and be offended, but the possibility of that happening with the way I say it is minuscule.

I remember joining a DF group for extreme sephiroth and we had so many wipes because many people didn’t know the mechanics or forgot including myself since it was the first time doing that and I ve only watched the video, but people were very positive and helpful and at the end we beat it just fine, it only took us a while to get everything down so even though we had a number of wipes people show things were improving so there was no reason to abandon so we continued.

That in my opinion is how a good game experience is meant to be, the game isn’t a job, and the funny thing is this entire post is coming from a person who is pretty self absorbed because if I ever fail and die I actually hope the group wipes so I get a 2nd chance to do well, but if the group wipes because of someone else I am not fussed at all because it means I get to try and even more since I get more used to the encounter and if I manage to somehow perfect everything it means I am helping the group more than most so we can easily do it even if some people are underperforming and that is also a pretty good feeling.

I never had this attitude of ‘everyone should be on my level’, especially since all content including high end content allows for a pretty decent gap for errors/underperformance which becomes even bigger if you have even a few good players with you

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Why do people act as if explaining a mechanic that was failed is gonna get them banned? I myself had to explain mechanics when I show some people have issues with it without targeting or attacking anyone, saying things like ‘try to avoid stacking lightning because it hurts a lot” or “try have markers placed in X so there’s a safe place on the ground Y’, those don’t target or insult anyone but simply inform them of what went wrong because it is possible for them to not be aware. This normalization of targeting a player directly is thankfully not allowed here and for good reason, not only to reduce toxicity but to also improve the community because if someone does a mistake they respond far better to reading what went wrong to someone who directly names and shames them which leads to even worse drama but tryhards don’t really care about other people to think about that.

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I'm not sure why you are conflating 'Holding someone accountable' with 'Explaining mechanics'.

I am talking about instances in which people are participating in overtly malicious behavior, like intentionally AFKing or joining parties that they know they don't belong in. The latter behavior is extremely common in endgame content, and it's been made difficult to ensure that these types of people experience any kind of negative feedback. Unfortunately, the very same people willing to take advantage of others are often also those malicious enough to exploit the report system.

This has lead to an overall chilling effect on peoples willingness to call others for engaging in behavior that is much more harmful than terse words.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Yes there are people who don’t know/remember all the mechanics, and because they know pugs can have elitist jerks who behave as if everyone should have done/know the fight when it was released they are forced to lie to get in since they want to do the fight and never ask for advice because they know they might get kicked so it is easier for them to stay silent when a screw up happens and try find what went wrong themselves rather than ask someone more experienced who knows exactly what went wrong.

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So, because someone is afraid they might get kicked or berated by a hypothetical toxic elitist, they intentionally lie to join a party where they know they will underperform and consequently run an extremely high risk of being the target of both of those things. You do realize that this genuinely makes no sense at all, right?

It's just kind of comes off as extremely heavy handed attempt to try to somehow blame the people being victimized in the original situation.

If you are fresh, join or make a fresh learning party. If you are on P1 Enrage, make or join a P1 clear party. There are typically an abundance of parties for all prog points of a fight in Party Finder; There is no reasonable excuse to trap a party you don't belong in.

It's not. You just get easily banned here so people don't talk in public.