Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

lmao i didnt make up "what if they were new and inexperienced" it was literally in the comment i replied to. thats not a strawman.


being kicked is not being harassed. the party thinking i dont want to play with this person (for whatever reason) and then removing them from the group is not harassment.

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It very much is if they were kicked for the reason the OP laid out in OP. The tank was not being unreasonable and was playing within the design parameters of the content.

Your strawman, btw, was "it's not fair for me to meet any kind of expectation". That's hyperbole to the extreme, and not at all within the context of what's being discussed.

The situation is this: The tank was pulling 1 group at a time rather than gathering 2-3 groups. There is nothing wrong with that at all, and kicking said tank for it was quite clearly harassment. Yes, there are "lines" of what is acceptable and what isn't (which I gave examples of), but this situation is not at all one that called for kicking

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Originally Posted by Physic

what i am saying is its not about what the majority wants, its about what is a fair expectation for the content.

the expectation will vary depending on the content, and what you agreed to going into the content.

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The expectation also includes the possibility of getting paired with other people who might kick us out, for whatever reasons (from not the liking the way we play to pure trolling).
I'm not saying it's right or the norm, just that it's better to go with that in mind so we'll get less upset and move on.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

It very much is if they were kicked for the reason the OP laid out in OP. The tank was not being unreasonable and was playing within the design parameters of the content.

Your strawman, btw, was "it's not fair for me to meet any kind of expectation". That's hyperbole to the extreme, and not at all within the context of what's being discussed.

The situation is this: The tank was pulling 1 group at a time rather than gathering 2-3 groups. There is nothing wrong with that at all, and kicking said tank for it was quite clearly harassment. Yes, there are "lines" of what is acceptable and what isn't (which I gave examples of), but this situation is not at all one that called for kicking

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the content is not what determines a kick. the party is the ones kicking you, not the group. if they dont want to play with someone, even in the situation in the OP, they don't have to. thats what the kick and leave functions are for. differences in playstyle has been cited multiple times as a valid reason to kick another party member.

perhaps the emphasis of "any expectation" is hyperbole but still expectations are not being met and i feel that honestly by level 70 the excuse of being inexperienced does not hold.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

the content is not what determines a kick. the party is the ones kicking you, not the group. if they dont want to play with someone, even in the situation in the OP, they don't have to. thats what the kick and leave functions are for. differences in playstyle has been cited multiple times as a valid reason to kick another party member.

perhaps the emphasis of "any expectation" is hyperbole but still expectations are not being met and i feel that honestly by level 70 the excuse of being inexperienced does not hold.

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The bolded line in your response is simply not true. The kick system is very often abused and used for harassment purposes. There are hundreds and thousands of valid reports and punishments made for people unreasonably kicking someone from a group (especially if the non-kicked members are pre-made).

Yes, you are correct that kicking someone =/= harassment... necessarily. But it can be, and often is.

The situation outlined by the OP is not one in which the tank was being unreasonable, and there was no valid reason to kick the tank. And frankly, that is the entire point of this thread. Not whether there are or are not situations where kicking is acceptable (that's quite obvious that there are).


There is a such thing as expectations being objectively too high. And this is one of those. It's not like the tank was losing threat constantly or dying constantly or afking. All he was doing is going a tiny bit slower than he possibly could have (large group pulling actually doesn't shave that much time off your dungeon run, btw).

When you see the "there is someone who hasn't done this dungeon before" message pop up, and it's the tank, do you immediately kick them? If not, that right there is a reasonable example of an inexperienced tank at level 70.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

When you see the "there is someone who hasn't done this dungeon before" message pop up, and it's the tank, do you immediately kick them? If not, that right there is a reasonable example of an inexperienced tank at level 70.

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Why would you kick someone for not having done a dungeon before? Not sure if we are playing the same game, but most 4 man dungeons since like the hard modes at level 50 have been easy to pull to the wall and aoe. I think that's what their point is, at level 70 you know that's the norm and inexperience isn't really the excuse anymore. There's plenty of other excuses, bad gear, bad healer, refusal to do it because "you don't pay my sub" etc but experience only really matters for boss fights in these dungeons. As for your point about it not being a valid reason to kick the tank, the group asked the tank to pull more and said they were had his back, tank refused flat out, group imo had every right to remove him and roll the roulette again. I wouldn't personally because who knows how long that'd take to replace a tank, but I think whether it's reasonable or not is up to that individual.

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

Why would you kick someone for not having done a dungeon before? Not sure if we are playing the same game, but most 4 man dungeons since like the hard modes at level 50 have been easy to pull to the wall and aoe. I think that's what their point is, at level 70 you know that's the norm and inexperience isn't really the excuse anymore. There's plenty of other excuses, bad gear, bad healer, refusal to do it because "you don't pay my sub" etc but experience only really matters for boss fights in these dungeons. As for your point about it not being a valid reason to kick the tank, the group asked the tank to pull more and said they were had his back, tank refused flat out, group imo had every right to remove him and roll the roulette again. I wouldn't personally because who knows how long that'd take to replace a tank, but I think whether it's reasonable or not is up to that individual.

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I find it to be the norm that a tank should know where the next adds that need to be picked up come from. If they don't they shouldn't put themselves in a position for "surprises". I can be max gear, I still won't mass pull my first run, I want to know where mobs come from, how to group them, what AoEs/Abilities I need to watch for, which mobs can spike damage up, etc.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

and i am saying that the reason given by the people in OP's discord was a valid one. they did not want to play with that tank, so they replaced him when they confirmed that said tank was not going to at least try to big pull. none of that was harassment.

what? being new is not grounds for being kicked and never did i say that. if you are new to content and are using that as an excuse to not work with your group or do your best i personally dont agree with it, but again that is up to the party.

in this specific example, you can be new to a dungeon and still make an attempt to big pull.

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And none of what the tank did was being AFK, being Offline, Cheating, or Harassment, relying on a grey area to save you for kicking people for funsies is closer to harassment than playing in a way that isn't speed run meta. If you don't want to play with someone who isn't doing one of those 4 things clearly, the proper option is to leave, if you have 3/4 people well 3 people leave. Can't say how many times I've left pre-made DPS high and dry with no tank or healer for kicking one.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

In OPs case I really see nothing wrong with it. It's the tank's right to decide they prefer small pulls but if he happens to be in a group where the majority would prefer and support a different style, it's just bad luck for everyone and majority wins.

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Majority can opt to leave. The tank did nothing legitimately wrong, they moved, they pulled, they held aggro, they tanked.

I don't think you should be forced to put with everything simply because you queued in DF nor do I think it's harassment if you either point out that the majority would welcome and fully support (even in case of failure) an adjustment to playstyle or end up kicking someone because of too contradicting playstyles of one vs. the others.
This goes for all roles, not just tank.
It's within everyone's right to decide wether they want to play with someone or not. If one player doesn't like the playstyle of the other 3, I think the best solution is simply to leave. Neither leaving nor trying to come to terms with the others and simply forcing the own playstyle on the group is imo egoistic. If it's a clear majority situation, the one who doesnt seem to fit is best served by just leaving or getting kicked.
This doesn't have to get personal at all and the queue time for certain roles have nothing to do with how valuable their opinion is over others.
I got kicked once because the others didn't like that I spent a lot of time dpsing as a healer and felt sort of unsafe. Okay. Their decision. I wasn't willing to play in a way that I deemed inefficient nor were they willing to trust my abilities, so it's best to part ways early. I requeue, they look for replacement and the next groups are hopefully more to our liking.
In OPs case I really see nothing wrong with it. It's the tank's right to decide they prefer small pulls but if he happens to be in a group where the majority would prefer and support a different style, it's just bad luck for everyone and majority wins.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

The bolded line in your response is simply not true. The kick system is very often abused and used for harassment purposes. There are hundreds and thousands of valid reports and punishments made for people unreasonably kicking someone from a group (especially if the non-kicked members are pre-made).

Yes, you are correct that kicking someone =/= harassment... necessarily. But it can be, and often is.

The situation outlined by the OP is not one in which the tank was being unreasonable, and there was no valid reason to kick the tank. And frankly, that is the entire point of this thread. Not whether there are or are not situations where kicking is acceptable (that's quite obvious that there are).


There is a such thing as expectations being objectively too high. And this is one of those. It's not like the tank was losing threat constantly or dying constantly or afking. All he was doing is going a tiny bit slower than he possibly could have (large group pulling actually doesn't shave that much time off your dungeon run, btw).

When you see the "there is someone who hasn't done this dungeon before" message pop up, and it's the tank, do you immediately kick them? If not, that right there is a reasonable example of an inexperienced tank at level 70.

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and i am saying that the reason given by the people in OP's discord was a valid one. they did not want to play with that tank, so they replaced him when they confirmed that said tank was not going to at least try to big pull. none of that was harassment.

what? being new is not grounds for being kicked and never did i say that. if you are new to content and are using that as an excuse to not work with your group or do your best i personally dont agree with it, but again that is up to the party.

in this specific example, you can be new to a dungeon and still make an attempt to big pull.

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

Why would you kick someone for not having done a dungeon before? Not sure if we are playing the same game, but most 4 man dungeons since like the hard modes at level 50 have been easy to pull to the wall and aoe. I think that's what their point is, at level 70 you know that's the norm and inexperience isn't really the excuse anymore. There's plenty of other excuses, bad gear, bad healer, refusal to do it because "you don't pay my sub" etc but experience only really matters for boss fights in these dungeons. As for your point about it not being a valid reason to kick the tank, the group asked the tank to pull more and said they were had his back, tank refused flat out, group imo had every right to remove him and roll the roulette again. I wouldn't personally because who knows how long that'd take to replace a tank, but I think whether it's reasonable or not is up to that individual.

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My point was that any reasonable person WOULDN'T kick a tank from the group simply for it being their first time running the dungeon. And that's an example of a level 70 being (reasonably) inexperienced and perhaps wanting to only take it 1 group at a time rather than 2-3.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

and i am saying that the reason given by the people in OP's discord was a valid one. they did not want to play with that tank, so they replaced him when they confirmed that said tank was not going to at least try to big pull. none of that was harassment.

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Apparently we're simply not going to agree on this point. I think a group who would kick a tank for pulling 1 group at a time rather than 2-3 is petty, immature, irrational, and lacks even the basic modicum of patience and understanding. And since the tank wasn't doing anything against the rules and was playing perfectly within the bounds of acceptable behavior in the dungeon, kicking him was flat out harassment.

Like I said, he wasn't losing threat or constantly dying or making mistakes that caused significant wastes of time. In fact, pulling 1 group at a time rather than 2-3 would have only cost the group about 2-5 minutes of playtime (yes, that's the average time saved by large group pulling).

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

^^ I can chain pull most dungeons in under 25m depending on the group setup, I find AoEing takes longer, more wipes, more "I'm out of TP/MP", also its boring AF. But I'm just a weird dude who likes to have fun playing video games, not play em like I'm a salesman working on 100% commission.

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That's another good point. Single group chain pulling can be just as fast as large group pulling as well. From experience, I've found that single pulling certain groups in The Burn actually makes the run go faster than wall pulling.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

The situation outlined by the OP is not one in which the tank was being unreasonable, and there was no valid reason to kick the tank. And frankly, that is the entire point of this thread. Not whether there are or are not situations where kicking is acceptable (that's quite obvious that there are).


There is a such thing as expectations being objectively too high. And this is one of those. It's not like the tank was losing threat constantly or dying constantly or afking. All he was doing is going a tiny bit slower than he possibly could have (large group pulling actually doesn't shave that much time off your dungeon run, btw).

When you see the "there is someone who hasn't done this dungeon before" message pop up, and it's the tank, do you immediately kick them? If not, that right there is a reasonable example of an inexperienced tank at level 70.

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Was the tank new and inexperienced in OP's case?
They didn't elaborate on that.

But even if the tank was new, they didn't just immediately kick them. They ask them to do larger pulls and ensured them that it would be fine if it wouldn't go smoothly, but the tank didn't even bother to try. We didn't know how the tank actually responded when asked.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Apparently we're simply not going to agree on this point. I think a group who would kick a tank for pulling 1 group at a time rather than 2-3 is petty, immature, irrational, and lacks even the basic modicum of patience and understanding. And since the tank wasn't doing anything against the rules and was playing perfectly within the bounds of acceptable behavior in the dungeon, kicking him was flat out harassment.

Like I said, he wasn't losing threat or constantly dying or making mistakes that caused significant wastes of time. In fact, pulling 1 group at a time rather than 2-3 would have only cost the group about 2-5 minutes of playtime (yes, that's the average time saved by large group pulling).

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^^ I can chain pull most dungeons in under 25m depending on the group setup, I find AoEing takes longer, more wipes, more "I'm out of TP/MP", also its boring AF. But I'm just a weird dude who likes to have fun playing video games, not play em like I'm a salesman working on 100% commission.

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Originally Posted by Fland

Was the tank new and inexperienced in OP's case?
They didn't elaborate on that.

But even if the tank was new, they didn't just immediately kick them. They ask them to do larger pulls and ensured them that it would be fine if it wouldn't go smoothly, but the tank didn't even bother to try. We didn't know how the tank actually responded when asked.

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Only thing known about tank response was refusal to do larger pulls, no context seems to have been given about the tanks, skill level, gear, game experience, new status etc. And context of groups thoughts can be considered to be anywhere between polite and downright rude/demeaning with the goal of "do big pulls anyways" being the only definitive thing, as no further details were given other than "context missing".

Rule number 1. Tank you very much.
Rule number 2. Heal-u-all and be humble.
Rule number 3. Dam-I need to shut up and wait in Queue longer. { DPS }

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

My point was that any reasonable person WOULDN'T kick a tank from the group simply for it being their first time running the dungeon. And that's an example of a level 70 being (reasonably) inexperienced and perhaps wanting to only take it 1 group at a time rather than 2-3.

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I mean you keep using reasonable, which is entirely subjective, and I happen to disagree with your assessment. Like I said, at level 70 it's pretty obvious that all dungeons are easy to do in mass pulls and therefore it's also "reasonable" to expect that and kick someone who refuses to try if asked. Also, though, I don't think the OP mentioned the dungeon having a first timer bonus so considering you said to keep it to the OP's scenario, this probably isn't relevant.

Edit: Also I dunno how anyone can say that mass pulls with aoe are somehow the same or slower than single pulling, like it's simple math 99% of the time. Saying one particular pull because of extremely large monsters which push the others around is enough to negate that is just ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Tellciel

Rule number 1. Tank you very much.
Rule number 2. Heal-u-all and be humble.
Rule number 3. Dam-I need to shut up and wait in Queue longer. { DPS }

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This whole thread reminds me why DPS queues are so long. :P

It also seems to me with the NA server split coming up we are ALL going to have to become more adaptive since we will likely be seeing a whole lot more of each other.

This kind of unnecessary heat is why people refuse to play tank classes. Yes, tanks have to perform just like any other class and just like any other job there are people who perform better than others. Tanks get ‘special treatment’ because there isn’t many that can handle this kind of pressure (if you even want to call it that).

Because people put this pressure on tanks is why warriors have the “diva” image with their dps. If it wasn’t for warrior being in the state they are in right now, tank players would probably have been even less than they are now. It is because tanks have these expectations, fair or unfair, is the reason tanks can get away with a little bit more than healers and dps.

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Originally Posted by Physic

just because majority has the power to do something doesnt mean they were right to do so.

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Maybe, but in this case they had the rights to do so.

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

I mean you keep using reasonable, which is entirely subjective

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And the crux of the issue. The baseline reasonable is being left in a gray area which does no one any good. It's like when people whine when Yoshi says "We design the game with the intention that healers only have to heal." A collection of people dislike it, but it is a baseline provided by the developer, while it won't hold up to full pre-mades, for the purpose of random matchmaking its a baseline that can be used. The part where no baseline is provided for tanks and DPS short of not actively doing something that prevents progress, which here is being used as "anything I dislike, but does not hinder completion, just makes it debatable on clear speed." Also an acceptable clear speed is in place for all content, given that if you surpass that number the entire group is kicked out. Don't get me wrong, I'll leave most outdated content long before I hit that timer, but still.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Maybe, but in this case they had the rights to do so.

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It was not, AFK, Offline, Cheating, or Harassment. The intent was to make progress, clear the dungeon, and do the necessary functions of the job. Any of those 4 reports would be wrong, since none of those were occurring in the situation of the kicked party according to the premise provided.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Apparently we're simply not going to agree on this point. I think a group who would kick a tank for pulling 1 group at a time rather than 2-3 is petty, immature, irrational, and lacks even the basic modicum of patience and understanding. And since the tank wasn't doing anything against the rules and was playing perfectly within the bounds of acceptable behavior in the dungeon, kicking him was flat out harassment.

Like I said, he wasn't losing threat or constantly dying or making mistakes that caused significant wastes of time. In fact, pulling 1 group at a time rather than 2-3 would have only cost the group about 2-5 minutes of playtime (yes, that's the average time saved by large group pulling).



That's another good point. Single group chain pulling can be just as fast as large group pulling as well. From experience, I've found that single pulling certain groups in The Burn actually makes the run go faster than wall pulling.

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i'm aware of the time difference between big and small pulls, you really dont have to keep saying it.

if theyre as terrible as you say then the tank should count their blessings that they were removed from the group and can queue immediately to a potentially more receptive party with zero penalty, no?

again, not liking something doesnt mean you were harassed. they were not sworn at, belittled, trolled, called slurs, stalked, or anything else in that realm as far as OP tells it.

we dont have to agree. thats the beauty of having a discussion about video games. it costs us nothing to disagree.

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

I mean you keep using reasonable, which is entirely subjective

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Reason is not subjective.

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Edit: Also I dunno how anyone can say that mass pulls with aoe are somehow the same or slower than single pulling, like it's simple math 99% of the time. Saying one particular pull because of extremely large monsters which push the others around is enough to negate that is just ridiculous.

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Because they can be. Depends on the situation. And in general, mass pulling doesn't actually save that much time at all. It's like the people who speed 10 miles over the speed limit... when the reality is they are only getting to their destination 2 minutes earlier than the guy who went speed limit (yes, that is a proven fact).

To give you just a few examples of how single group pulling can be just as fast, with single group pulling, the healer can use more GCD's for DPS than they can during mass pulls. Furthermore, despite your false claim otherwise, positioning (due to hit boxes, size of pull, etc) can be a big issue that causes significant dps loss. Even party job make-up can be a big factor, as some jobs simply aren't good for AoE.

Fact of the matter is that mass group pulling is NOT objectively better/faster in every situation. It always depends, and in most cases the difference in clear time is insignificant (2-5 minutes at most).

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

again, not liking something doesnt mean you were harassed. they were not sworn at, belittled, trolled, called slurs, stalked, or anything else in that realm as far as OP tells it.

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But this has nothing to do with "not liking something". He was harassed because he was kicked for no valid reason. That, in and of itself, is harassment.

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

It was not, AFK, Offline, Cheating, or Harassment. The intent was to make progress, clear the dungeon, and do the necessary functions of the job. Any of those 4 reports would be wrong, since none of those were occurring in the situation of the kicked party according to the premise provided.

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Ever since "differences in playstyle" appeared as a valid reason for kicking, these four options that never got updated were pretty much irrelevant.
By the way, these options are different in other languages, showing how useless this selection of options is.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Reason is not subjective.




Because they can be. Depends on the situation. And in general, mass pulling doesn't actually save that much time at all. It's like the people who speed 10 miles over the speed limit... when the reality is they are only getting to their destination 2 minutes earlier than the guy who went speed limit (yes, that is a proven fact).

To give you just a few examples of how single group pulling can be just as fast, with single group pulling, the healer can use more GCD's for DPS than they can during mass pulls. Furthermore, despite your false claim otherwise, positioning (due to hit boxes, size of pull, etc) can be a big issue that causes significant dps loss. Even party job make-up can be a big factor, as some jobs simply aren't good for AoE.

Fact of the matter is that mass group pulling is NOT objectively better/faster in every situation. It always depends, and in most cases the difference in clear time is insignificant (2-5 minutes at most).

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2nd Part, I'm with you.

1st part is objectively wrong, by it's very nature reason is subjective, even more-so is the term reasonable. Even if we get a baseline "reasonable" play from the developers for this purpose, that baseline reasonable was subjective to the collective views of the developers that they would be willing to enforce. While objectively usable as a standard to work from, the view itself is subjective.
Keep in mind the western basis for logic and reason was at one point subjectively legitimately considered crazy and madness by the majority of the populace.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Because they can be. Depends on the situation. And in general, mass pulling doesn't actually save that much time at all. It's like the people who speed 10 miles over the speed limit... when the reality is they are only getting to their destination 2 minutes earlier than the guy who went speed limit (yes, that is a proven fact).

To give you just a few examples of how single group pulling can be just as fast, with single group pulling, the healer can use more GCD's for DPS than they can during mass pulls. Furthermore, despite your false claim otherwise, positioning (due to hit boxes, size of pull, etc) can be a big issue that causes significant dps loss. Even party job make-up can be a big factor, as some jobs simply aren't good for AoE.

Fact of the matter is that mass group pulling is NOT objectively better/faster in every situation. It always depends, and in most cases the difference in clear time is insignificant (2-5 minutes at most)..

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Reasonable is subjective, it's inherently subjective because it's based on someone's own judgment. Like come on lol. Also of course it'll differ depending on job makeup and such, but grouping things up and hitting for thousands of potency each global is inherently better than the alternative. MOST dungeons don't have monsters big enough to make aoe not viable, in fact I would say even the ones that do you're STILL hitting enough mobs to make it better. Also your point about healers is false because healers that are comfortable enough to dps will be comfortable enough to aoe dps which again, is flat out better, and in some cases (whm/sch/ast stun) can even help with mitigation. I didn't say it was objectively better in every situation, I said most situations, funny you'd resort to a strawman after complaining about it. Like there are entire guides on when aoe is better and why on the balance discord and most of the time it's like 4+ for globals. Anything higher than that is just added bonus. And the whole "2-5 minutes at most" is debatable for sure, but also 2-5 minutes in every single duty you do while playing this game adds up and is therefore significant.

I also play main tank. DRK to be exact.

I used to be afraid of pulling large at lower levels (50 and below) because you lack some skills that would make large pulls a lot harder than what they should be. To be completely honest at Lv70, you should be pulling large. You have all the skills needed at a tank to hold aggro and mitigate damage as well as self heal. The healer can pretty much completely replenish your HP if need be as long as you're not standing in AoE pools and DPS roles will burn through groups of enemies like it's nothing. It's daunting at first but it's really not that difficult.

Sometimes I do pull smaller depending on the dungeon and the mobs though. Like during the Burn in the final room before the Mist Dragon with the Giga Worms. Only because there's constant AoEs being thrown out that makes postitioning really annoying if you pull them, the bugs that come from the sand and that flying creatures, it becomes an annoying AoE fest.

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

Also your point about healers is false because healers that are comfortable enough to dps will be comfortable enough to aoe dps which again, is flat out better, and in some cases (whm/sch/ast stun) can even help with mitigation.

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I don't think you're understanding. The healer is required to spend more GCDs on healing during a mass pull than they are for single pulls. That's how the mechanics work... the tank is taking significantly more damage in a mass pull than single pull, so more GCDs are used for healing. In single group pull, the healer can spend more GCDs on dps. This isn't about whether or not a healer is "comfortable"... it's simply math and mechanics. The only exception might be if the tank is DRK if they are very experienced and use the proper rotation.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

I don't think you're understanding. The healer is required to spend more GCDs on healing during a mass pull than they are for single pulls. That's how the mechanics work... the tank is taking significantly more damage in a mass pull than single pull, so more GCDs are used for healing. In single group pull, the healer can spend more GCDs on dps. This isn't about whether or not a healer is "comfortable"... it's simply math and mechanics. The only exception might be if the tank is DRK if they are very experienced and use the proper rotation.

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I'm understanding perfectly, but what you're saying isn't true. Yes they're taking more damage, but at the same time because they can use their aoe spells to do that much more damage in a larger pack, the one gcd they used on doing damage is doing THAT MUCH MORE compared to the gcds the spent on the single pulls. Then you throw in how healing in this game is atrociously easy when it comes to healing damage, that argument isn't really solid because if they are doing single pulls most healers are just doing their simple stone stone stone rotation. Every healer has spells that benefit much more when done on large packs vs smaller ones. What you're saying makes sense logically, they're taking more damage and therefore need more healer gcds, but you're discounting that they're doing more damage each spell and things are dying faster over the course of the dungeon, aoe spells can stun and heal others, etc. You're making it too simplistic for your arguments benefit.

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

I'm understanding perfectly, but what you're saying isn't true. Yes they're taking more damage, but at the same time because they can use their aoe spells to do that much more damage in a larger pack, the one gcd they used on doing damage is doing THAT MUCH MORE compared to the gcds the spent on the single pulls. Then you throw in how healing in this game is atrociously easy when it comes to healing damage, that argument isn't really solid because if they are doing single pulls most healers are just doing their simple stone stone stone rotation. Every healer has spells that benefit much more when done on large packs vs smaller ones. What you're saying makes sense logically, they're taking more damage and therefore need more healer gcds, but you're discounting that they're doing more damage each spell and things are dying faster over the course of the dungeon, aoe spells can stun and heal others, etc. You're making it too simplistic for your arguments benefit.

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Umm... a healer is using their AoE on single group pulls.

I think you're confusing single group pulling with single target killing... which is not what I'm talking about (and thus you are not understanding).

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Umm... a healer is using their AoE on single group pulls.

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Umm... that depends on the healer greatly, like you're saying people are holy spamming or gravity spamming 2-3 mobs? And even if they are, which you know, probably not great, but even if they are they're still doing far more potency in large groups.

Again, not confused, you're just not making good arguments. edit: In my opinion. Also, this is getting off-topic and being steered a certain way for you to get a point in. Overall between healer, tank and dps, it's way more dps to do large pulls in most cases. And that's why it's not unreasonable for this particular group to have booted this particular tank for refusing to pull more despite them encouraging him to do so. Since at that point it was simply the tanks decision not to, I think they were in the right to do what they did.

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Originally Posted by Awha

It strikes me as odd since I know for a fact the same group of people that were upset about the removal of the tank refusing to try something new with larger pull despite the group in question telling them that they will be fine and they will support them through it.

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What strikes me as odd is a group that is so willing to support a tank through larger pulls, completely changes their tone when he/she chooses not to comply. Talk about a two-faced group. You guys are/were so steadfast, that you were actually willing to take a disservice by having to wait around for another tank than just deal with smaller pulls. If I was that tank, I definitely would have blisted every single one of you after being kicked.

The group isn't entitled to jack schite. If you want to set the pace for a dungeon, then queue as a tank. They have that privilege and entitlement because it is a role with a lot of responsibility. Why do you think it's the least played role of the three? And you have to understand that crap like this is a big reason why they are the least played role, and will continue to be. Don't ever gripe about long DPS queues. I will be quick to bring up your OP if you do.

And this is why I and many others don't tank.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Reason is not subjective.




Because they can be. Depends on the situation. And in general, mass pulling doesn't actually save that much time at all. It's like the people who speed 10 miles over the speed limit... when the reality is they are only getting to their destination 2 minutes earlier than the guy who went speed limit (yes, that is a proven fact).

To give you just a few examples of how single group pulling can be just as fast, with single group pulling, the healer can use more GCD's for DPS than they can during mass pulls. Furthermore, despite your false claim otherwise, positioning (due to hit boxes, size of pull, etc) can be a big issue that causes significant dps loss. Even party job make-up can be a big factor, as some jobs simply aren't good for AoE.

Fact of the matter is that mass group pulling is NOT objectively better/faster in every situation. It always depends, and in most cases the difference in clear time is insignificant (2-5 minutes at most).




But this has nothing to do with "not liking something". He was harassed because he was kicked for no valid reason. That, in and of itself, is harassment.

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If you, as the tank, and the healer are not completly undergeared and know how to play your classes, the healer can dps all the time during big pulls. Also every job is capable of doing enough AOE dps to make it worth to pull big.

It's really interesting to me how people seem to think the main issue of why people don't tank/heal is because of responsibility over just... like... people like doing damage. I enjoy maining dps because it's fun to see big numbers and kill things quickly and when I tank or heal, it annoys me how bad some dps players can be so I always go back. I've never worried about "responsibility" or any of that. Like tanks and healers aren't that hard to pick up in this game, and dungeons are for the most part, extremely linear lol.

Wall to wall,
or not at all! (Vote Kick initiated!)


People making way to big a deal out of this nonsense. In like, 98% of the content in this game there is NO PENALTY for death. IMO, tanks should always be trying to big pull. If that leads to a wipe, then dial it back, no big deal.

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Originally Posted by Cerbolt

And this is why I and many others don't tank.

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On the opposite side of the arena, this IS why I tank: To take the lead and obliterate the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The group isn't entitled to jack schite. If you want to set the pace for a dungeon, then queue as a tank. They have that privilege and entitlement because it is a role with a lot of responsibility.

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Most people go with it simply because it's convenient to do so. Not because it's a written rule.
Being a tank doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want and ignore the 3 other players in your party. And the excuse of the "muh responsabilities" is ridiculous, as the healer has more responsabilities than the tank in dungeons.

Also, adapting the size of your pulls to your party is part of your duty as a tank. If you don't do it thinking that you get to decide everything, then you make a case about healers and DPS being authorized to do the same given the realm of their "responsabilities".

What if you healer can't heal big pulls? Are you still going to pull too much and wipe "because I have responsabilities and I get to decide!"? I had a tank like that a few days ago. They got kicked in the blink of an eye. And rightfully so.

Tl;dr: being a tank doesn't allow you to be a jerk and ignore the rest of your party.

Edit: just to be clear, I main Warrior. And I set the pace according to my party's capabilities. Not because I'm a self-proclaimed selfish god who has the "privilege and entitlement" to decide everything based on my personal preferences.
You want to know why? Because I understand that this is a team game, and doing things for the party instead of for myself is the best way to achieve our common goal. The party would be more comfortable with small pulls? So be it. The party would be more comfortable with big pulls? So be it.
If you only decide based on your own wishes, then you're not only a bad tank, you're a bad team player. (This is a general rule of thumb. Exceptions exist.)

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

It's really interesting to me how people seem to think the main issue of why people don't tank/heal is because of responsibility over just... like... people like doing damage. I enjoy maining dps because it's fun to see big numbers and kill things quickly and when I tank or heal, it annoys me how bad some dps players can be so I always go back. I've never worried about "responsibility" or any of that. Like tanks and healers aren't that hard to pick up in this game, and dungeons are for the most part, extremely linear lol.

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Echoing this.
I've mained tank for a long time in other MMOs and I never worried about the oh-so-high responsibility. I'm there to get my face munched off so others can keep theirs intact. I was expected to avoid unneccessary dmg, use my CDs accordingly, hold aggro, do pulls of the size according to what the party can handle and focus on dps of all the former was already taken care of. If I already knew everything about the dungeon, great. If not, I looked at the map to find my way and if there are surprise mob spawns, the worst thing that can happen is that you die because you didn't know them and the healer couldn't handle the additional dmg. So you respawn and learned something. Not the end of the world.

Same with healers. I make bars go up. I'm generally expected to heal through all dmg, including overpulls, surprise mob spawns and people eating stuff they could've avoided and not be a little princess because just it was avoidable/ unexpected. Dispell debuffs asap if they're actually detriminal and save the gcd for healing/ dmg if they're not that bad (like most poision debuffs). Do dps as much as possible and use my CDs/ oGCDs to maximise dps time. Adjust my position according to the others for grp heals/ heal range (and it's amazing how many people run around like headless chicken and stand at the other side of the room). If I failed at something, people tend to die. Lesson learned, doing better next time. Respawn, retry. Again, not the end of the world.

If people feel that this a huge thing to deal with, maybe it's just the wrong kind of responisibility for them. Or take a step back re-evalue your view on things, because I'm getting the feeling that a lot of this pressure is actually self-inflicted. No, a tank doesn't has to be the one person that perfectly knows the dungeon. If you don't, say so and someone will give you pointers. Easy as that.
No, you don't have to memorize every single damage pattern in dungeons as a healer in dungeon. Just stay alert and react if something happens or ask for advice.
Having memorized everything and being able to react in advance is a BONUS in dungeons not the main responsibility.
For difficult raids it's another thing, but I doubt that was the main topic. Of course you should come as prepared as possible, no matter the role.

i see it as a bit of a mix with considerations for the content and gear, there is literally no reason to large pull in satasha with a group that has one or no aoe, because it puts more onus on the healer to heal rather than allowing them to dps as well and kill things faster (problems arise when in copperbell the blam is insistent on pulling ahead of you and the healer refuses to heal you which keeps killing you on those large pulls and both of them are saying its your fault :tableflip: ), but if you have a well geared healer that knows their job (and isnt an afk fairy healer) generally you can get away with wall pulls

on the flip side of that, wall pulling in fucking bardams, av, and dd is stupid and everyone always wipes because theyre in a damn hurry >.<

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Most people go with it simply because it's convenient to do so. Not because it's a written rule.
Being a tank doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want and ignore the 3 other players in your party. And the excuse of the "muh responsabilities" is ridiculous, as the healer has more responsabilities than the tank in dungeons.

Also, adapting the size of your pulls to your party is part of your duty as a tank. If you don't do it thinking that you get to decide everything, then you make a case about healers and DPS being authorized to do the same given the realm of their "responsabilities".

What if you healer can't heal big pulls? Are you still going to pull too much and wipe "because I have responsabilities and I get to decide!"? I had a tank like that a few days ago. They got kicked in the blink of an eye. And rightfully so.

Tl;dr: being a tank doesn't allow you to be a jerk and ignore the rest of your party.

Edit: just to be clear, I main Warrior. And I set the pace according to my party's capabilities. Not because I'm a self-proclaimed selfish god who has the "privilege and entitlement" to decide everything based on my personal preferences.
You want to know why? Because I understand that this is a team game, and doing things for the party instead of for myself is the best way to achieve our common goal. The party would be more comfortable with small pulls? So be it. The party would be more comfortable with big pulls? So be it.
If you only decide based on your own wishes, then you're not only a bad tank, you're a bad team player. (This is a general rule of thumb. Exceptions exist.)

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It's a rule because the tank has the fattest HP pool, defense, and tools necessary to mitigate damage. It's not convenient; it's common sense. Those who feel otherwise are ignoring that rule, and/or lack common sense. What is truly an unwritten rule, is that tanks MUST pull large, or pull according to the strength of the party. THIS is the true convenience, because it takes an experienced tank not only with tanking, but the instance itself to be able to gauge the strength of the group.

I also don't want to hear anything about healers having more responsibility. It takes a dungeon like The Burn to even put any kind of pressure on experienced healers because healing is broken as eff right now. They get to DPS 90% of the time while sitting on their ogcds and regens. They have the most downtime out of the three roles. All players have a responsibility of staying out of the bad as best they can, and those who are really good at this make life even easier for a healer.

There can be a lot of reasons why a tank won't pull large, and at the very bottom of that list is, "Ima tank and a selfish prick. What I say goes!" And yeah, you were in the right for kicking a tank who pulled too much twice in a row without even checking with the healer. That's a lot different than kicking a tank because he/she doesn't pull enough. The former is a true detriment to the group, and putting unnecessary pressure on everyone.

Personally, if someone asks me to pull bigger i will do so.

However, if it goes wrong and we die as a result i will point fingers at the people who told me to pull bigger.

"I did as you asked, we died, it is your fault because it was your idea"


For an example, coming up on the last pull in Hell's Lid back when it was still new, i get told to Pull wall to wall, attempts to raise concerns about how that might not work out too well are ignored.
So i do as they want, rush in, pull everything, use cooldowns...promptly die because the incoming damage in that section is huge and the healer couldn't keep up, then everyone else gets murdered too.

"BAD TANK! WE WIPED BECAUSE OF YOU!" They shout.

Yeah, no, it's your fault for giving bad orders, don't go trying to offload the blame on me, you made the decision, so the consequences are on your head.

Complying with other peoples ideas does not make it my fault if things go south as a result, it means the idea was a bad one.

This does lead to the occasional rage fit from people who absolutely refuse too accept that they could possibly be in any way responsible for the fallout of their plans.

It even happens in raids, they demand we try some new and "Genius" strat they came up with, and then said strat kills everyone, and they start screaming about how the problem must be with everyone else because their ideas cannot possibly be wrong.

So I'll put in my 2 gil.

I am a very defensive player. I have all dps at max and I am in the process of leveling the tanks. 90% of the time I single pull and try to have a cd up while in tank stance. Why? This game has way too many dps that don't aoe(or even use the lb). As tank I control the pace and based on what I see most of the time so far that pace is single pulls. Whats the point of power pulling like 7 mobs if the blm is just going to spam fire 3 and the sam is going to st the whole time?

On the flip side this is a team game. If I get asked to pull more I will do so. The people saying "they wouldn't be able to even do the dungeon without me" seem to forget that the tank needs the healer and dps as well. This is a group effort and if the group whats me to pull more I will try to do so(99.9% chance I'm staying in tank stance though). If we wipe? Try again or dial it back. We tried to handle it and couldn't cut it.