The premium app is what finally made me unsub.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

I think theyre going about the app all wrong for what it should be. Its not p2w though.

It should be free. Having the app should give you the ability to manage your acc, and allow you to recruit another retainer or more saddlebag space from your account. The app allows item management between retainers. It should allow people to play Trip Triad or their toybox games, or chat in FC chat or wtih friends. What you have access to should be determined by waht you do in game, to some extent. That would be a pretty nice app.

But as I said, its not p2w based on what they have.

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Consider WoW armory don'tt give you the function to manage your inventory or sell item on AH as an free ap.
This in-development app is revolutionary and bring accessibility to gamers, if they can make it works

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Consider WoW armory don'tt give you the function to manage your inventory or sell item on AH as an free ap.
This in-development app is revolutionary and bring accessibility to gamers, if they can make it works

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WoW's app did have auction house until Wendsday, so during some years.

but yes, revolutionnary probably, SE are unknown genius...

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

What is the limit of "optional" content to you? Everyone have different limits for it. When "optional" content is able to optionaly pay more to receive more, it is still optional, but is it right? Is it right to be able to purchase 35$ of Sub and earn more space, more gil, more mats, more marcket power, housing economic control where everyone should be equal as it is a subscription MMO, known for to not bother with cash shop advantages to who pay more? What it will be in the future? SURELY not less than what we are suffering.

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For me when my gaming budget reaches a certain limit or it goes more than a week without being used ( retainer wise ). When it affect my responsibilities in RL and have to make a choice, or when a company is doing something unethical that clashes with my values. Future wise I don't really worry never really struggled some options they offer are useless from my perspective.

Example;

Jump potions, was to please people for not being able to play with their friends. Complete waste of money if it can be obtain in normal subscription why pay same with Dye's., same for some glamour gear completely useless.

Emotes Kai Arts Odin / Shiva as an example; Emotes are just a plus I love the art, and get 2 sets one for my personal use one for collectors. , Unless people are hardcore RP and really want emotes they don't really matter. It's all based on what needs they have.

Mounts, minions, older event stuff; Never worried did events kind of useless to pay for them. Books, Music, their nice as a bonus.

Surely a person suffers based on their greed or needs. How they approach them is up to each individual. If people keep complaining and give some incentive yes it may have no limit. Hence logically stand the same point....it's up to us to decide that.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Has it ever occurred to you they are judging based on prior experiences, be it with other companies or SE themselves. Bear in mind, SE attempted the whole "Augment Your Preorder" nonsense and only backed down when inundated with an overwhelming amount of backlash and a dislike ratio over 90% on their Youtube trailer. Basically, they stopped when people kept complaining hence why plenty are complaining now. Then you look at EA or Activision and it makes sense why people "judge" ahead of time. SE can thank the game industry it's apart of for the negative reception to micro-transactions. If they want good PR... look to Naughty Dog and CD Projekt Red, who haven't tried to nickel and dime their customers. It's almost like people don't like that.

Companies hide behind the "Optional content" excuse hoping people won't notice them double dipping. EA did it with lootboxes, which were technically optional. That doesn't mean people have to like it.

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Yes it has, it has also occurred to me that based on prior experiences people don't get simple things. As per past experiences I have always come to two conclusions based on the points I read online, forums, and my personal perspective based on Live letters / patch notes..and wait until I have hands first experience on it..

To add to that note; First this game is repetitive based on the way it was created. Feed back is implemented different and by various ways that does not sit well with a certain percentage of players. SE acts based on the bigger percentage being affected at a faster rate, therefor we as consumers hold to an extend. Therefor people who judge ahead of time based on ideas and not actual implementations for a minimum of a months tend to jump the gun. Which leaves the ball in the consumers court.

1. is this really something that will effect my need? IF so I decide how I contribute.

or

2. Pay more money really? this is unfair. So what can I do? trow a tantrum over things that I don't really need or do need but refuse to participate with providing financial support, or be hypocrite and know that I will find a way later on.

These choices have one thing in common in this industry that you see as micro transactions. It's a choice, the reality is that most of the percentage of accounts are for it. The only way this can change is if everyone one completely decides to boycott the application. Will it happen? No.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

I think theyre going about the app all wrong for what it should be. Its not p2w though.

It should be free. Having the app should give you the ability to manage your acc, and allow you to recruit another retainer or more saddlebag space from your account. The app allows item management between retainers. It should allow people to play Trip Triad or their toybox games, or chat in FC chat or wtih friends. What you have access to should be determined by waht you do in game, to some extent. That would be a pretty nice app.

But as I said, its not p2w based on what they have.

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Do you like, not understand what P2W means? P2W means buying an advantage with RL money, retainers are PtW, the app makes them more so when you are paying even more money each time you want to undercut someone. Just because it only relates to the market boards for direct advantage ( and by extent free mats with ventures) does not change the fact it is PTW, you only think it is not because all you care about is battle content. Do you know how the MB works? Most sales that pass it come from the first being listed, even if it means costing more then then ext one due to tax, people do not pay attention.

You can't just sit here and go "its not P2W" without stating a reason, when it factually is. You just do not want to view SE giving P2W elements in their game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Consider WoW armory don'tt give you the function to manage your inventory or sell item on AH as an free ap.
This in-development app is revolutionary and bring accessibility to gamers, if they can make it works

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YO CANT sell items for free! it is a microtransaction!!!

BUYING is free, once per day only
If they change this one of 2 things can thank, these threads and posts and or SE's translation team being poor.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Huh...you do know what the number one rule of a business is right? this is not a charity type of business in case people have not noticed. SE has added to existing member basic content with their patches just not enough for people to be satisfied to an extend.

It's not a matter of morality, they do their part and while many may not agree it's up to us the consumer who are using a service they provided based on their terms. We don't have to play it / use what ever options they give us. IF F2P games are so great why are people comparing it to a game that is not a F2P to begin with? Just silently quit and go play something else. We the poor souls that enjoy this game and don't mind paying for things that we choose to do will waste our funds to help enhance a need that we have and SE is meeting based on their business model.

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I'm really sick of reading that type of comments from you.This talk right there you are doing of the business model is really not good imo & 15years ago final fantasy was not like this, I return the comment that you said "Just quit & go play something else" I do not desire se to take the route its taking right now & go along 2018 shitty cash shop influence "business model" as you claim so. I couldn't keep myself shut about your rude comments anymore MBravo, you saying good riddance to others is just plain rude & in the end... I wish... u...

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Originally Posted by Ruf

I'm really sick of reading that type of comments from you.

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Then don't read them. It's your choice to do so. It would help to understand why you hate it rather than give a vague response,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ruf

I'm really sick of reading that type of comments from you.This talk right there you are doing of the business model is really not good imo & 15years ago final fantasy was not like this, I return the comment that you said "Just quit & go play something else" I do not desire se to take the route its taking right now & go along 2018 shitty cash shop influence "business model" as you claim so. I couldn't keep myself shut about your rude comments anymore MBravo, you saying good riddance to others is just plain rude & in the end... I wish... u...

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ah just saw your update. Look I don't sugar coat things and these threads just keep appearing. Sorry if they clash with you on a emotional level and as I had explained in other threads they are not meant to be offensive. I'm a logical person and being straight forward with a person is an act of respect. Therefor thank your for your reasons I will take it with an open mind and never take it personal being that I accept your perspective.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Only the people ignored the fundamental law of supply and demand will claim Retainers is pay to win.

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Blasphemy because, one person might get rich by selling something rare for an enormous amount, while some others that cant get that item could also possibly get rich for selling common items in bulk while hoarding as you said before...

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I bought extra Retainers for inventory space because I likes to horde

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Aka in other words you can buy low/resell higher but that still can be broken stacks, no reasons selling 99 of something if ppl arnt willing to buy more than 10 at a times & so in that case,that goes as taking several marketboard slots & then in the end, the more retainers you have, then the more slots you got open too, to me it feels like you are full of... because not everyone get the same chances & if you want to generally speak about economy, then ill say this, TIMING IS KEY

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

YO CANT sell items for free! it is a microtransaction!!!

BUYING is free, once per day only
If they change this one of 2 things can thank, these threads and posts and or SE's translation team being poor.

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You don't bank for free in North America either, do you pitchfork your bank too?
Keep making hyperbole claim and you don't even take into account the sell rate of items on market board is low.
At the best, 1/3 of items you list will be sold, 1/2 if you are lucky.
The chance and need to use kuponut for transaction is low to begin with.
This service is clearly design for people who often will not be access to the game for a period of time (out of town for work), in which it is quite often occurrence for Japanese (and Asian).
Over exaggerating is over exaggerating.

ps. Aisan banks paying their client interest so they deposit money to their bank (there is no such thing as service charge or monthly fee), but North American bank nick and dime their client on everything, do you want to pitchfork that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

You don't bank for free in North America either, do you pitchfork your bank too?
Keep making hyperbole claim and you don't even take into account the sell rate of items on market board is low.
At the best, 1/3 of items you list will be sold, 1/2 if you are lucky.
The chance and need to use kuponut for transaction is low to begin with.
This service is clearly design for people who often will not be access to the game for a period of time (out of town for work), in which it is quite often occurrence for Japanese (and Asian).
Over exaggerating is over exaggerating.

ps. Aisan banks paying their client interest so they deposit money to their bank (there is no such thing as service charge or monthly fee), but North American bank nick and dime their client on everything, do you want to pitchfork that?

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Uh I bank 100% for free. Hell my Bank pays me any time I have to pay any kind of ATM fees.
Also on the same note you don't design something that only serves a portion of your player base while alienating the other portion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

Uh I bank 100% for free. Hell my Bank pays me any time I have to pay any kind of ATM fees.
Also on the same note you don't design something that only serves a portion of your player base while alienating the other portion.

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Tell me which part of player base got alienated.
By not provide a service to take care the players that will often lost access to the game is the true alienation.
Premium service you get one extra kuponut, how is that an alienation?
Sorting inventory? How often you are sorting your inventory to begin with?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Tell me which part of player base got alienated.
By not provide a service to take care the players that will often lost access to the game is the true alienation.
Premium service you get one extra kuponut, how is that an alienation?
Sorting inventory? How often you are sorting your inventory to begin with?

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They are alienating anyone who can't justify yet another 5/month on top of their normal sub just to get a UI feature that should have been built into the game. I really could care less about the extra expanded saddlebags, or the additional retainers. Shifting your items between retainers should have been something included in the game itself with the normal sub not locked behind yet another sub.
And I actually manage my inventory quite often, at least once a day to make sure I'm not holding onto things I don't need, seeing as I only use the base 2 retainers that we get for free. Leveling crafters makes inventory space a premium thing that is hard to come by when you are constantly shifting the materials you need to get things done.
Hells I'm less upset about the premium feature as I am about the fact that they are also adding a micro transaction currency that they already have plans to expand upon, or have some people just conveniently skipped that line on the slides?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ruf

Blasphemy because, one person might get rich by selling something rare for an enormous amount, while some others that cant get that item could also possibly get rich for selling common items in bulk while hoarding as you said before saying you like to hoard...Aka in other words you can buy low resell higher like you said but that still can be broken stacks, no reasons selling 99 of something if ppl arnt willing to buy more than 10 at a times & so in that case,thats goes as taking several marketboard slots & then in the end, the more retainers you have, then the more slots you got open too, to me it feels like you are full of... because not everyone get the same chances & if you want to generally speak about economy, then ill say this, TIMING IS KEY

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This is my original statement:

Quote:

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I bought extra Retainers for inventory space because I likes to horde weapon, tier gear, tome gear, and various glamour gear.
Retainer market board is secondary and often cost me much more time and effort to list items.
As you already made your mind, I wish you are good luck for your venture in other games.
Enough said, no need to beat on a dead horse since OP already made his mind, any further argument is pointless.

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This is why I don't take you serious, cant even quote without twisting words.
The statement is purely explain to OP the main reason I am getting 7 retainers is for inventory purpose, not marketboard listing. and wish him good luck.
What you are trying to do here?
Twisting my words?

Selling ratio is low and purely random and you also admitted yourself, timing is the key.
So what makes you believed that number of retainers will matter when market demand decides everything?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Has it ever occurred to you they are judging based on prior experiences, be it with other companies or SE themselves. Bear in mind, SE attempted the whole "Augment Your Preorder" nonsense and only backed down when inundated with an overwhelming amount of backlash and a dislike ratio over 90% on their Youtube trailer. Basically, they stopped when people kept complaining hence why plenty are complaining now. .

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For anyone who isn't familiar with what he's talking about

https://na.square-enix.com/us/node/6569

Yes, keep arguing! Each post increases the chances of SE seeing our discontent and possibly acknowledging us. You're playing right into our hands. Bahahaha!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I likes to horde weapon, tier gear, tome gear, and various glamour gear.

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So after overhoarding things you didn't spiritbond to yourself & glamour, its impossible to change your mind & not want to use them anymore & then flip them by selling them on marketboard afterward? Right I forgot, everything that ppl hoard is market prohibited.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

timing is the key.
So what makes you believed that number of retainers will matter when market demand decides everything?

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If you can handle the timing & you know what you are doing, a farmer can milk a cow dry... In other words, the more cows you own, the more milk "just theory" but my point is if you empty all your retainer, you got more supply power than I do & so yes you are full of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Consider WoW armory don'tt give you the function to manage your inventory or sell item on AH as an free ap.
This in-development app is revolutionary and bring accessibility to gamers, if they can make it works

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A quick consideration I had is that while some are harping on it making some users p2w by better managing the market board, there is something of note that isnt addressed. P2W models are almost always self serving. That is to say if I buy a powerup that gives me better stats than a free user, that power up is going to snowball ME to be even stronger longterm. If people have teh ability to manage their retainer inventories and put stuff up on teh MB and then price modify at will (should they pay), the likely hood is that people will UNDERCUT other people. This means, broadly, that overtime, MB prices should drop a bit as people attempt to UC each other. Thats beneficial to the average MB buyer.Furthermore, it still requires you to be logged in to do stuff. You cant sell things that youre retainer doesnt have. So you want to sell mats? Ok. Youre gonna have to log in and farm them and then give them to your retainer.

Also, not sure on this, but did they say if you could assign retainer missions or not? If not, than the supposed advantage almost becomes negligible. Its essentially using a micro transaction to UC other players for gil profit, which benefits the player base semi directly by driving down costs (albeit slightly probably) in a competitive bid on items.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ruf

So after overhoarding things you didn't spirinbond to yourself, its impossible to change your mind & not want to use them anymore & then flip them by selling them on marketboard afterward? Right I forgot ever everything that ppl hoard is market prohibited.

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How am I going to be able to sell Raid Weapon, tier gear, tome gear, and various soulbound glamour gears?
Please do educate me.
Oh my god, I am so want to know how to sell these rare/ex gear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

How am I going to be able to sell Raid Weapon, tier gear, tome gear, and various soulbound glamour gears?
Please do educate me.
Oh my god, I am so want to know how to sell these rare/ex gear.

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Go to the PF, there are run sellers all the time there. . . Don't act like they don't exist.

They've been in the game since Titan HM was a gate for the original Relic.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Go to the PF, there's run sellers all the time there. . . Don't act like they don't exist.

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He is specifically saying those rare/ex and glamour items already in my retainer inventory tho.
Did you pay attention to that?
You may want to read whole thing first.

oh my bad, i should be more specific, i use world glamour items because they are bound already.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

A quick consideration I had is that while some are harping on it making some users p2w by better managing the market board, there is something of note that isnt addressed. P2W models are almost always self serving. That is to say if I buy a powerup that gives me better stats than a free user, that power up is going to snowball ME to be even stronger longterm. If people have teh ability to manage their retainer inventories and put stuff up on teh MB and then price modify at will (should they pay), the likely hood is that people will UNDERCUT other people. This means, broadly, that overtime, MB prices should drop a bit as people attempt to UC each other. Thats beneficial to the average MB buyer..

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Not really beneficial for the average mb user as actually the players that do a capital on hoarding WILL buy all the undercutted stocks until it run out & then flip it back to x3 the initial sale if not x5 just like irl wheres its becoming ridiculous nowadays.Many players do OR / do not know what an item is worth so that is right there what balance things out & so in the end poor ppl get more poor & rich ppl get richer, let me give you that example, say an item is used in a low level synth, its not worth much for a low lvl crafter, therefore they will sell it cheap because they dont care, they only gathered it for gathering xp or (first time discovery)... but on the other hand the high lvl crafter can use that for a higher lvl synth which on the final form = a lot of gils, so instead of going out there, waiting on a time node, he will just buy the cheap undercutted items, then synth the items he wants to without even gathering & then make a lot on your "average mb user".Point is, this brings it back at timing & the # of items you can hold in your possession, an item might not be worth anything atm, in 3months it might skyrocket.DM is completely deflecting the highlight of what I'm saying about his post even if he say I'm cherry picking, divinemight is not cherrypicking enough IMO because as I said, if you empty all retainers then possibiltys arnt the same,None can judge about glam items & sellable/unsellable #'s as its different for everyone, but just like that, I could go naked & have all my drawers empty to stock pile gold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

You don't bank for free in North America either, do you pitchfork your bank too?
Keep making hyperbole claim and you don't even take into account the sell rate of items on market board is low.
At the best, 1/3 of items you list will be sold, 1/2 if you are lucky.
The chance and need to use kuponut for transaction is low to begin with.
This service is clearly design for people who often will not be access to the game for a period of time (out of town for work), in which it is quite often occurrence for Japanese (and Asian).
Over exaggerating is over exaggerating.

ps. Aisan banks paying their client interest so they deposit money to their bank (there is no such thing as service charge or monthly fee), but North American bank nick and dime their client on everything, do you want to pitchfork that?

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There is no exaggerating, this is completely of topic, this is a pure white knight post. What was your point even? What does it mean "you don't bank for free in North America either, do you pitchfork your bank too" what does that have to do with anything? It is not relatable at all. We pay for this game, hello? the game it self, about 40 EUR or so, then sub, we should not be having to pay another sub because they left the game broken, unfinished and rushed just so they can charge us more later. No one is asking for the game to be literally free omfg.

Here is my post:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

Do you like, not understand what P2W means? P2W means buying an advantage with RL money, retainers are PtW, the app makes them more so when you are paying even more money each time you want to undercut someone. Just because it only relates to the market boards for direct advantage ( and by extent free mats with ventures) does not change the fact it is PTW, you only think it is not because all you care about is battle content. Do you know how the MB works? Most sales that pass it come from the first being listed, even if it means costing more then then ext one due to tax, people do not pay attention.

You can't just sit here and go "its not P2W" without stating a reason, when it factually is. You just do not want to view SE giving P2W elements in their game.



YO CANT sell items for free! it is a microtransaction!!!

BUYING is free, once per day only
If they change this one of 2 things can thank, these threads and posts and or SE's translation team being poor.

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now can we talk without red harrings?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

From the Digest:

"The premium plan is based on a monthly subscription. While it’s not finalized yet, we are currently assuming around 500 yen for the monthly fee. We would like you to first try it out free, then consider subscribing. The premium plan adds various additional features such as inventory management between retainers, the ability to purchase an additional retainer on the Mog Station, and also doubles the capacity of the saddlebag."

Unless that, too, is an error, it seems you will have to actually purchase the retainer. The reddit translator also mentioned Yoshi-P outright saying it wouldn't be free.

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^This.
Paying a subscription for being able to pay another subscription should take more of our attention than trying to argue whether or not it is P2W. ( '-')

It's also important to speak about it before its release, we don't need to have the app between our hands to know what's going on. Especially with the informations that Square Enix has already shared. As Bourne said ealier, it's how we had dodged the Augment your pre-order campaign. Waiting isn't helping, nor just leaving in silence (as there is no feedback attached to it). Other communities did it before us ; I'm thinking of the For Honor's one with the blackout event (because of the lack of communication from Ubi etc). Even the Destiny 2's one with the constant stream of threads helped. It can be annoying at a time to see every hour or day the same exact topic coming back, but it's our only way to voice our concerns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Yes it has, it has also occurred to me that based on prior experiences people don't get simple things.

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What is there to "get," exactly? They already revealed what features this premium service will provide, then promptly asked for our feedback. Welcome to said feedback. We aren't throwing knives blind, we're criticising what they revealed to us. People dislike essentially being deceived when we're told countless times about server limitations preventing larger inventory expansion only for an app to abruptly offer 70 slots... if we pay an additional fee. Likewise, being able to organize multiple retainers all at once has been a requested feature since 2.x. Now it's locked behind a paywall. So, pray tell, what are we "judging ahead of time"?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

These choices have one thing in common in this industry that you see as micro transactions. It's a choice, the reality is that most of the percentage of accounts are for it. The only way this can change is if everyone one completely decides to boycott the application. Will it happen? No.

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This is decidedly untrue lest EA would not have been tarred and feathered over lootboxes. Aggressive micro-transactions have grown in popularity due to requiring a mere fragment of your playerbase to turn a profit hence the term "whales." Say Moogle Coins are set to $1, and someone purchases a thousand of them. That is more revenue from a single person than nearly five year log subscriptions at $15 per month. To put this into perspective. A person who has maintained a subscription since the relaunch of FFXIV will have contributed less to SE's bottom line than a single person purchasing a thousand moogle coins. That's why SE is attempting this.

Claiming the majority of accounts are for micro-transactions isn't just grossly disingenuous. It's flat out wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ruf

Snip.

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If I was correct in my understanding, you cant make MB purchases from the App. Those who will do mass purchasing will already be logged into the game and monitoring the MB. The app in that case is not beneficial. It has no net effect (other than retainer space)

Also, I dont see this happening as it were. Mabye your server? Not so much on mine. I see people flip if theres a huge undercut, but to flip means youre going to buy out someone elses stock and tehn take the risk to turn over the item. If you buy out someones stock at 1000g a pop, and then repost for 10000 gil as the only person on the MB, you run the risk of some rando coming in and flooding the MB under you for 9000 or 8000. You can try buying them out to keep demand high, but thats an uphill battle youre likely to lose long term. Any changes in drop rates or the necessity of an item may cause pricing to tank. People who game the market board arent going to ultra overcharge when they ahve a capital on the item simply because it exposes a lot of them to risk.

Also, I fail to see how the app applies to something thats youre giving an example in the game.

Low lvl player sells a low lvl item. High lvl player purchases it to create an item to make more profit on from average market board users (whom, btw, are lazy generally, and Ill get to that.) This is somehow a bad thing cause the high lvl player has spent time and effort to get there, get savvy with the market and then use his earned money and resources to make more. Mind you the low lvl player benefitted from thsi transaction as it were too.They made money on an item they perceived as garbage. And the middle man? The average MB user? theyre paying for a service or item that theyre to lazy to get themselves.

The rule of thumb in this game is pretty straightforward: Either buy it and pay out the nose, or do it yourself and save (if not generate) money.

Remember me telling you that MB users are lazy? They are. How many MB users purchase glamour prisms for 2-4k a pop, not realizing 1 lvl 70 turn in to your GC can get you 5 or 6? How many buy lvl 20 gear off the MB for 10k that can be purchased for 1 or 2k from a vendor 20 feet away. How about overpriced dyes? Materials that can be purchased from NPCs. Mats that can be farmed by yourself or by retainers fairly easily? A lot of stuff on the MB is overpriced because people are LAZY. Thats not the fault of people savvy enough to realize that. If youre not going to spend time doing it yourself, youre going to pay others for it. Thats the way it works. And those lowly users? They could use to brush up to and charge more for the items if they wanted. But they choose not to. These are not the fault of the "rich" getting richer. And all this, btw, hsa nothing to do with the APP other than price changing.

As for inventory space, yeah I suppose items cna skyrocket in price, but item trends tend to go the opposite of that. Items typically FALL in price over time as more and more people gain access to those items ambiently. If you want to horde everything and flood the market when somethign sky rockets, yeah you could make a killing. And someone can come along and screw you by out pricing you.

To be fair hate for EA is not only born out of MTs and lootboxes (cept for late bloomers that just joined the bandvagon) it also stem from their want of essentially killing the competition, by buying other companies, stripping them to the bones and then closing them.
According to the bets Bioware are next in line

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

What is there to "get," exactly? They already revealed what features this premium service will provide, then promptly asked for our feedback. Welcome to said feedback. We aren't throwing knives blind, we're criticising what they revealed to us. People dislike essentially being deceived when we're told countless times about server limitations preventing larger inventory expansion only for an app to abruptly offer 70 slots... if we pay an additional fee. Likewise, being able to organize multiple retainers all at once has been a requested feature since 2.x. Now it's locked behind a paywall. So, pray tell, what are we "judging ahead of time"?



This is decidedly untrue lest EA would not have been tarred and feathered over lootboxes. Aggressive micro-transactions have grown in popularity due to requiring a mere fragment of your playerbase to turn a profit hence the term "whales." Say Moogle Coins are set to $1, and someone purchases a thousand of them. That is more revenue from a single person than nearly five year log subscriptions at $15 per month. To put this into perspective. A person who has maintained a subscription since the relaunch of FFXIV will have contributed less to SE's bottom line than a single person purchasing a thousand moogle coins. That's why SE is attempting this.

Claiming the majority of accounts are for micro-transactions isn't just grossly disingenuous. It's flat out wrong.

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that,,,,,altought more players than someone could think do contribute to the cash shop & that because of that I can not claim that a % is a minority & another % is a majority, what Bourne_Endeavor said:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Say Moogle Coins are set to $1, and someone purchases a thousand of them. That is more revenue from a single person than nearly five year log subscriptions at $15 per month. To put this into perspective. A person who has maintained a subscription since the relaunch of FFXIV will have contributed less to SE's bottom line than a single person purchasing a thousand moogle coins.

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that's killing final fantasy essence imo & on that ill even point out something else like

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Well im not going to comment on the translation part of this but in general the use of forums in general and not just for this game has been dying for a long time.
Most people dont look at forums.They check for info on facebook,Twitter and Reddit.
Infact Reddit has carried more weight in terms of voiced opinions on this game since it was released.
I know forum users dont want to accept they are the minority but the truth is you are.
Consider yourselves lucky that SE even accept questions still off the forums for live letter.

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You are correct on the point that I do not want to accept it & so I dont accept it.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

If I was correct in my understanding, you cant make MB purchases from the App. Those who will do mass purchasing will already be logged into the game and monitoring the MB. The app in that case is not beneficial. It has no net effect (other than retainer space)

Also, I dont see this happening as it were. Mabye your server? Not so much on mine. I see people flip if theres a huge undercut, but to flip means youre going to buy out someone elses stock and tehn take the risk to turn over the item. If you buy out someones stock at 1000g a pop, and then repost for 10000 gil as the only person on the MB, you run the risk of some rando coming in and flooding the MB under you for 9000 or 8000. You can try buying them out to keep demand high, but thats an uphill battle youre likely to lose long term. Any changes in drop rates or the necessity of an item may cause pricing to tank. People who game the market board arent going to ultra overcharge when they ahve a capital on the item simply because it exposes a lot of them to risk.

Also, I fail to see how the app applies to something thats youre giving an example in the game.

Low lvl player sells a low lvl item. High lvl player purchases it to create an item to make more profit on from average market board users (whom, btw, are lazy generally, and Ill get to that.) This is somehow a bad thing cause the high lvl player has spent time and effort to get there, get savvy with the market and then use his earned money and resources to make more. Mind you the low lvl player benefitted from thsi transaction as it were too.They made money on an item they perceived as garbage. And the middle man? The average MB user? theyre paying for a service or item that theyre to lazy to get themselves.

The rule of thumb in this game is pretty straightforward: Either buy it and pay out the nose, or do it yourself and save (if not generate) money.

Remember me telling you that MB users are lazy? They are. How many MB users purchase glamour prisms for 2-4k a pop, not realizing 1 lvl 70 turn in to your GC can get you 5 or 6? How many buy lvl 20 gear off the MB for 10k that can be purchased for 1 or 2k from a vendor 20 feet away. How about overpriced dyes? Materials that can be purchased from NPCs. Mats that can be farmed by yourself or by retainers fairly easily? A lot of stuff on the MB is overpriced because people are LAZY. Thats not the fault of people savvy enough to realize that. If youre not going to spend time doing it yourself, youre going to pay others for it. Thats the way it works. And those lowly users? They could use to brush up to and charge more for the items if they wanted. But they choose not to. These are not the fault of the "rich" getting richer. And all this, btw, hsa nothing to do with the APP other than price changing.

As for inventory space, yeah I suppose items cna skyrocket in price, but item trends tend to go the opposite of that. Items typically FALL in price over time as more and more people gain access to those items ambiently. If you want to horde everything and flood the market when somethign sky rockets, yeah you could make a killing. And someone can come along and screw you by out pricing you.

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the person screwing over the other in that situation is the person that have the biggest stock, so in other words: the person that will undercut market to death as they have nearly unlimited ressources, minus counter argumenting one thing or two I said, & agree to disagree with me on low price items being good for average user generally speaking, you pretty much confirmed my point, I am not going to give detailed proofs of what we typed but yes its been experienced before, & therefore while you claim that you do not see that on your server, meanwhile it happens elsewhere. Junk items got me 50M in a week before,& just as a fyi,I'm not too rich atm either & yes I worked for it but still,

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

As for inventory space, yeah I suppose items can skyrocket in price, but item trends tend to go the opposite of that. Items typically FALL in price over time as more and more people gain access to those items ambiently. If you want to horde everything and flood the market when somethign sky rockets, yeah you could make a killing. And someone can come along and screw you by out pricing you.

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ty

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

This is decidedly untrue lest EA would not have been tarred and feathered over lootboxes. Aggressive micro-transactions have grown in popularity due to requiring a mere fragment of your playerbase to turn a profit hence the term "whales." Say Moogle Coins are set to $1, and someone purchases a thousand of them. That is more revenue from a single person than nearly five year log subscriptions at $15 per month. To put this into perspective. A person who has maintained a subscription since the relaunch of FFXIV will have contributed less to SE's bottom line than a single person purchasing a thousand moogle coins. That's why SE is attempting this.

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EA was tarred and feathered over loot boxes because it was p2w, as MOST gamers understand it. This concept of having access to an extra retainer or two, and changed the MB, is a p2w scheme is horse raddish.

Pay 2 Win model most people understand: BUYING UPGRADES/ITEMS/GEAR/ACCESS that gives you a flat out power advantage over all other players. This would be gear with better stats you can get instantly, items that make boss fights easier, front of the line access or access to special content with better items/gear that only you have access too. Etc. Items that make you OP compared to the free player.

EA got hosed cause they did that, making some of the best guns RNG in lootbox based and making it extremely difficult to get those lootboxes UNLESS you purchased them. They had defacto locked power in the game behind a paywall, where if you had deep pockets, you could statistically get stronger than everyone else. They tried to write it off as not P2W because "Everyone can get lootboxes and therye RNG!", trying to make the argument that unlike most P2W, you arent guarenteed to get those god tier items, and you could 'technically' get them yourself. People were smart enough to realize that was BS.



Now, heres the problem with the 'whale' argument. Games, like MMOs, require large player bases to function. If you create a system 1 player spends 1k on and gets a direct power advantage, but 10 players quit in retaliation to those business models, the companies ultimately lose profit. Furthermore, whales are an extreme fraction of the player base. Theyre more likely to make MORE money from the average user spending an additional 5-10$ a month + sub over time than teh 1 time whaler.

Lets say there are 100 players. Of those 100, only 1 is a whale. The other 99 spend 15/month + 5 additional for shop stuff.

in a year, the profit breakdown is this:
Whale = $1180
Avg Users = $23760

Aggressive micro transactions are generally justified by not having a subscription most times, so if they were to wipe out Subs to go after the whale, the new break down is:

Whale = $1000
Avg Users = $495

The business would suffer a net loss of $22000+. If the player base reacts negatively towards the Micro transactions and stop subbing or buying, theyll take a hit as well. It only takes around a 5% hit to the player base for a policy of favoring those whales and their 1k for it to cut even, if not a loss.

The reason SE is going in on this is because theyre figuring that its not p2w, and that it will not alienate the player base

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Originally Posted by Ruf

snip

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Sigh. Ok.

I have unlimited resources, I can keep undercutting my competition. As I UNDER CUT other players, people buy my stock. Who is benefitting? The avg mb user, me. I can keep undercutting, which drives prices down. Then what? My competition does the same, driving all prices down. Whos benefitting? The avg MB user. If prices get to low, Im losing value on teh stock I have in attempts to undercut, so is my competition. Lets say they jump the gun and really UC. I buy out there stock, then repost at higher prices. I now have command of the MB on that item and can charge whatever I would like.

Another competitor comes along and UCs me. We start the battle all over again. I have to drop my prices to theirs to make sales. I can buy out there stock and just horde infinitely, I guess. But Im the only one losing money on that.Cause there will always be other people who will cumulatively have more resources than me to keep posting to the MB. Having a horde of items does not mean Im 'rich'. And the longer I have those items, the more volitile they become statistically. Meaning, longer I horde those items, more likely the price will keep driving lower and lower.

Also, who cares if Junk items get you to 50 Mil. Youre an anecdote, and not necessarily the trend (if you were, then getting rich would be something everyone would do). I dont confirm your point, btw, by stating that you can gamble on hoarding items to make huge profits. I said that to illustrate there are isntances where that may occur, but that broadly speaking, its a bad business practice. Any inventory youre not moving is a loss on your ' business'. Hoarding is a bad strat overall, especially as item accessibility tends to increase over time.

This all again, btw, has nothing to do wtih the app, as all that can do is change prices. You cant purchase from the MB, so you dont have the ability to buyout your competitors; only drive down prices.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

This all again, btw, has nothing to do wtih the app, as all that can do is change prices. You cant purchase from the MB, so you dont have the ability to buyout your competitors; only drive down prices.

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This is actually wrong. You can indeed purchase items from the MB with the app through the use of the micro transaction moogle coins as stated on this slide:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/a...9&d=1524126451

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Sigh. Ok.

I have unlimited resources, I can keep undercutting my competition. As I UNDER CUT other players, people buy my stock. Who is benefitting? The avg mb user, me. I can keep undercutting, which drives prices down. Then what? My competition does the same, driving all prices down. Whos benefitting? The avg MB user. If prices get to low, Im losing value on teh stock I have in attempts to undercut, so is my competition. Lets say they jump the gun and really UC. I buy out there stock, then repost at higher prices. I now have command of the MB on that item and can charge whatever I would like.

Another competitor comes along and UCs me. We start the battle all over again. I have to drop my prices to theirs to make sales. I can buy out there stock and just horde infinitely, I guess. But Im the only one losing money on that.Cause there will always be other people who will cumulatively have more resources than me to keep posting to the MB. Having a horde of items does not mean Im 'rich'. And the longer I have those items, the more volitile they become statistically. Meaning, longer I horde those items, more likely the price will keep driving lower and lower.

Also, who cares if Junk items get you to 50 Mil. Youre an anecdote, and not necessarily the trend (if you were, then getting rich would be something everyone would do). I dont confirm your point, btw, by stating that you can gamble on hoarding items to make huge profits. I said that to illustrate there are isntances where that may occur, but that broadly speaking, its a bad business practice. Any inventory youre not moving is a loss on your ' business'. Hoarding is a bad strat overall, especially as item accessibility tends to increase over time.

This all again, btw, has nothing to do wtih the app, as all that can do is change prices. You cant purchase from the MB, so you dont have the ability to buyout your competitors; only drive down prices.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

I dont confirm your point, btw

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You said, that ppl get lower price, but its not necessarily true (sell an item for 1gil as you own 100 that's 1% of your income/sell an item for 1g as you own 1000 that is LESS than one percent) because the person that sold the raw material for cheap at start often is the one left stuck to overpay for what they want afterward as the cost is "in theory" more important to them with the capital they would have...,i never said I was the trend & making that 50M like that was part luck but mainly that still stand a fact + if the said initial seller sold the item for dirt cheap, what tells you that they will make good money later on? some players will literally go broke for a glamour & cut off the gils sink its a huge cycle & encouraging low prices of raw material is actually encouraging society to stay poor & under slavery by the power of money. You might not be able to buy with the app but it still "in theory give you a shot at faster sales" & faster money incoming can lead to faster reinvestment & so it goes back to timing once again.I dont care about none of that, its not game breaking to me to the point that I would stop playing for that but the app does give tremendous advantages by the sound of it. saddle bag & extra retainer would be highlight by the interaction & the mentality you are sharing with me... but nonetheless it gives faster sales options for x allowed time. if something is staying in demand forever, its all about what you do with it, I disapprove to your whales & avg user numbers, but well that's just me. all for one & one for all.

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

This is actually wrong. You can indeed purchase items from the MB with the app through the use of the micro transaction moogle coins as stated on this slide:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/a...9&d=1524126451

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Sigh. Ok.

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lol,Idk if its true or not, but personally I would find it rather dumb if they did let you put items for sales using virtual currency of the application but yet restrict you from purchasing with it. 1+1=ouch my head hurt maths are tough & while I do sarcasm, I actually like mathematics at times, I wish I was better with them...

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Then don't read them. It's your choice to do so. It would help to understand why you hate it rather than give a vague response,
ah just saw your update. Look I don't sugar coat things and these threads just keep appearing.

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And here's Manuel, coming out the woodwork on this topic once again.
You just need to learn to hold a discussion without being mean.
As you say to Ruf, you have an option not to read or even respond to these posts.
You're wasting your time telling people "Good Riddance" and telling me in another thread that I lack common sense or some thing or another.
People are so damn sick of these microtransactions. I just agree to disagree on how you feel but you don't see me being rude.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

If I was correct in my understanding, you cant make MB purchases from the App. Those who will do mass purchasing will already be logged into the game and monitoring the MB. The app in that case is not beneficial. It has no net effect (other than retainer space)

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For the THIRD TIME NOW:

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

YO CANT sell items for free! it is a microtransaction!!!

BUYING is free, once per day only
If they change this one of 2 things can thank, these threads and posts and or SE's translation team being poor.

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The app works like this
Free:
a currency called a kupo nut is given to you, this is used to ONLY buy items for free
the 5 dollar sub, gives to 2 of those^

Now there is a second pay element to this, though MICROTRANSACTIONS, you PAY with IRL money each time you want to BUY or SELL something off the MB, it is FLAT out Pay to WIN system when it comes to the MB. This is directly off the slides they shown us, if it ends up to be different, thank posts like those made by me and others, for that.

the retainers where already passing the line, the only question was how much each person generally accepted it and for the most part did not care. However with the app now, they are pushing P2W the MB way too far. Them rushing out ARR is not in our hands to pay extra for, I would love to go back in time and tell them take an extra 2-6 months to work on it. haste makes waste, FFXIV is a 5 year example why. HECK wasn't 1.0 problematic because THAT was rushed out too? Eureka? glam dresser? Gee i see a pattern.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

To be fair hate for EA is not only born out of MTs and lootboxes (cept for late bloomers that just joined the bandvagon) it also stem from their want of essentially killing the competition, by buying other companies, stripping them to the bones and then closing them.
According to the bets Bioware are next in line

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ik this, but do not forget, a DLC requiring a DLC, they had DLception, like our subception. (though the last retainer is funny, its a sub on top of a sub, on top of a sub, while being involved in microtransactions.)

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Originally Posted by Ruf

lol,Idk if its true or not, but personally I would find it rather dumb if they did let you put items for sales using virtual currency of the application but yet restrict you from purchasing with it. 1+1=ouch my head hurt maths are tough & while I do sarcasm, I actually like mathematics are times, I ish I was better with them...

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The 1+1 is for BUYING only, the IRL money micotranaction can do both.

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Originally Posted by Remyogic

Option [Webster's Dictionary]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/option

1) an act of choosing

2) the power or right to choose

3) something that may be chosen

As long as SE gives you a CHOICE in whether or not to pay the extra money. It qualifies as an OPTION. Thus, it is OPTIONAL CONTENT. The only way this would NOT qualify as optional is if they made the app and it's subscription mandatory in order to subscribe to and play the game.

As I've stated in other threads, just because you don't LIKE you choices, does NOT mean you don't have a choice.

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*hands on face*
How did you miss the point? How? I will simplfy what was said in the post.
Charging extra for this, is a basic game feature that should be base, suddenly calling it optional would be no different then saying you need pay 2 dollars a month to use glam, you need pay 3 dollars a month to go to the gold saucer.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...if-it-continue

I find it odd how people are responding in defense of these business practices. While for me its not something that will make me unsub, I don't disagree with the points the OP is making.

So, disregarding the semantics argument over whether or not this app is P2W...

I stopped my sub for the same reasons as OP. This isn't Pimp My Ride, where we should be excited to see subscriptions in our subscriptions. I paid a subscription to not have to deal with extra fees and microtransactions. Is this what I get for tolerating the Mog Station's existence? The chance to throw more of my money at the company for some basic features that should have been in the game from the start? I'd rather see a flat subscription fee increase than this slimy money grubbing trying to look innocuous because it only preys on the most hard-core market board users. They even have plans to expand it already if we tolerate it, that tells you exactly what the priority is- skate through on reputation and good-will while they invest more and more into "optional" shit that costs "a small fee" with "optional micro transactions" for full functionality. I pay to play the game and enjoy the content, not for the privilege of having more crap to spend money on.

In general I feel we've been getting the same or less while development resources have gone into stuff I either hate or have to pay extra to get full use of. Quit making dumb shit and put my money and your efforts back into making the game worth subbing for, SE.

And to the people who are defending this, great for you. The rest of us do have a problem and we at least want acknowledgement that SE knows we're unhappy. Expect to see more threads like this until we get a response of some kind.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I find it odd how people are responding in defense of these business practices. While for me its not something that will make me unsub, I don't disagree with the points the OP is making.

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There are people who will defend anything SE puts out, or simply say "wait and see". Even though SE rarely changes direction.

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

So, disregarding the semantics argument over whether or not this app is P2W...

I stopped my sub for the same reasons as OP. This isn't Pimp My Ride, where we should be excited to see subscriptions in our subscriptions. I paid a subscription to not have to deal with extra fees and microtransactions. Is this what I get for tolerating the Mog Station's existence? The chance to throw more of my money at the company for some basic features that should have been in the game from the start? I'd rather see a flat subscription fee increase than this slimy money grubbing trying to look innocuous because it only preys on the most hard-core market board users. They even have plans to expand it already if we tolerate it, that tells you exactly what the priority is- skate through on reputation and good-will while they invest more and more into "optional" shit that costs "a small fee" with "optional micro transactions" for full functionality. I pay to play the game and enjoy the content, not for the privilege of having more crap to spend money on.

In general I feel we've been getting the same or less while development resources have gone into stuff I either hate or have to pay extra to get full use of. Quit making dumb shit and put my money and your efforts back into making the game worth subbing for, SE.

And to the people who are defending this, great for you. The rest of us do have a problem and we at least want acknowledgement that SE knows we're unhappy. Expect to see more threads like this until we get a response of some kind.

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I would argue tolerating the extra subs on retainers, I think the slippery slope started with them. I doono how I feel about the mog station in general other then they are raising costs too high. It would been fine if the costs where reasonable.

12/10 for the hidden xzibit reference. I think I used it once and subception but ya >.>

I know I was attacked before for calling the retainer system P2W now and not then. I did not do it because I was "tolerating it" but still did not like it then. I thought it was only a temp thing to help fund long term fixes, not this slippery slope. I regret ever funding it now.

You might also like this thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...if-it-continue

talking about the dangers of this route and what it can lead to now.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

common sense is a dying trait after all.

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https://i.imgur.com/ppfXS3o.jpg

Can’t you stay for 4.3?