Diadem Leeches

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

have you guys actually considered gathering up, and COM MU NI CA TING what where their for? and HELP EACH OTHER?

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In duty finder? Are you on something?

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One of the big things WoW added in Warlords of Draenor(one of it's better points at that) was a live hotfix system.

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Hot fixes have been in the game a lot longer then WoD.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

have you guys actually considered gathering up, and COM MU NI CA TING what where their for? and HELP EACH OTHER

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Thank you for the capslock, I failed to consider this option before I saw it here.


Actually we did, the gatherer simply said, screw you, should have thought of that before queueing, and then proceeded to roll on all loot. Why the capslock hostility btw? Do you not consider it fair that the whole team shares all the spoils? Or is it a one way street for the gatherers?

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

That's a good point too...

I think, perhaps, really this content was intended for FC groups or others who know each other, can work together and get along across goals that aren't necessarily 100% self interest. Then the DF mode was just added so access wouldn't be overly restricted...

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i tried it for the the first time via df last night and whole group worked well 2gther finsihed the battle goals killed the NM then every1 went away gathering or just left if some1 shouted there was 5 star monster etc people still grouped to kill it then went back to gathering

I honestly don't know why people would WANT to duty find this. I'd much rather go in with a partial party with friends than have to do this with randoms.

Maybe I'm weird.

imo once the goals are met it becomes more or less open world to do what you want in.. aslong as those goals are completed first people should be free to do what they want in diadem just because 1-2 people go in there with the sole objective to gather doesnt make them leeches or trolls.. theres stuff to do with both dow/dom and gathering classes

if want purely hunt party or gathering party then make a premade in pf or go with your fc.. whose to say your objective is right and some1 else who intended just to gather is wrong??

So your saying that people should listen to your orders and play like you and if they don't play like you they should be kicked?

Because your the ultimate awesome godly player who has destroyed moons galaxy's stars and universes all hail mighty godly champion hero you.

And if we start excluding gatherers, prices are going to rise on items on the MB that require diadem-exclusive materials and we're going to get topics here bitching that prices are too high and gatherers are too greedy. They just can't win.

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Originally Posted by Seiryuukishi

Simple solution: don't DF it with randoms. That is all.

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This isn't a solution at all. Some FC mates went in with two premade parties last night and had to fill a few spots with randoms because we didn't have enough that wanted to go. A couple of the PUGs we brought (got them from PF) helped until we could fly then they spent the entire time gathering. It was made clear before we entered that it was fine to gather if we were clearing near nodes, but if there were mobs to fight they needed to be fighting. They instead spent the entire time flying around looking for buried coffers and gathering from nodes. Still rolled on (and won some) gear that dropped, including 210 stuff.

Guess what we could do about it while we were in there? That's right, absolutely nothing.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

This isn't a solution at all.

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Actually it is. Take your FC mates, make a party finder, find people you can actually hold accountable for not doing things the way you layed out in the party finder.

Profit.

I saw gathering and fishing as part of the mission objectives so at one point people do have the right to gather and can contribute to the mission by doing so.

I think its just a matter of role establishment because without teamwork its just chaos and wasting a lot of time when people don't realize until after they die, that they need to stick together to accomplish XYZ. Especially at the beginning, leaving people behind who have to get their aether currents and are getting killed by mobs who need others to help kill. Its just faster when everyone helps to begin with but that does take cooperation.

ah edit, I saw this post and this is what I mean! Thank you for saying what I couldn't say! <3 /Liked

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

This content is simple.

TEAMWORK

Without that, nobody is gonna get anything more then frustration. You wanna go off and do your own thing, fine. Nobody can stop you; but don't expect to get very far without the group. You ninja'd your way to all the wind currents by your self? Good for you. That doesn't help the team get their currents. You found a buried coffer on the other side of the map? Good for you, it's only gonna be a bronze chest; meanwhile we're over here fighting a Rank 5 monster. Oh you found a Rank 5 monster of your own? Good for you, the team is still on this half of the map, good luck getting credit by yourself.

But seriously, most people are just really new to this and are more "ooh and awe" at the moment. I think if you give the new content hype some time to die down first, people will begin to figure out that they need their team to get further; and those who don't are just bad apples and probably realize that they're and just simply don't "give a fuck", which in that case, you can't do anything about them except leave them be.

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Just make it so if you were on a gathering class when loot dropped, you cant roll on it even if you go DoW.

/fixed. People who want no 1 to gather are selfish tho, but loot distribution needs to be altered

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Great blackball them from any future party finders you make. You have full control over who you allow into your party finder and with that you learned that those two players are not team players. I'm not being a "Smart ass" I'm telling you that you have the tools at your disposal to prevent future abuse by such players.

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Thank you again for your sagely wisdom. Please tell me more that I don't already know.

This stuff works well after the fact, but what happens while we're in there? We shouldn't be subjected to that kind of stuff while we're in there. People should have some decency and not screw over the group for their own gain. If they can't do that we should have some recourse outside of going full on loot dictator and deciding who gets what.

The system is brand new and we're already seeing flaws that prove they don't learn from past content. If we're allowed to have gatherers in there then they should offer some incentive for us to bring them along, something other than the mats that they're able to gather. If their gathering were to give the rest of the people in the party various buffs (higher max hp/mp, increased attack/healing power, skill/spell speed, etc) then it would be different, but as it stands now it's BS and needs to be implemented better.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

The system is brand new and we're already seeing flaws that prove they don't learn from past content.

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This is squarely on SE for putting this content in the Duty Finder, party finder has lootmaster rules to prevent Ninja lots.

It's totally fair to be "Loot Dictator" if your going in with a premade you obviously know eachother well enough to know who gets what, and for the people who join up they are well aware that the loot rules have been set as such and your expectations for people to qualify for loot rights.

The gathering portion was never meant to be a solo endeavor but of course taking random people with you without taking precautions beforehand can lead to this. A Votekick is extreme, loot sharing for the gatherables is one way to prevent people just profiting from doing there own thing but I can't imagine SE can be bothered to code the loot pool to hold that many items.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

It's totally fair to be "Loot Dictator" if your going in with a premade you obviously know eachother well enough to know who gets what, and for the people who join up they are well aware that the loot rules have been set as such and your expectations for people to qualify for loot rights.

The gathering portion was never meant to be a solo endeavor but of course taking random people with you without taking precautions beforehand can lead to this. A Votekick is extreme, loot sharing for the gatherables is one way to prevent people just profiting from doing there own thing but I can't imagine SE can be bothered to code the loot pool to hold that many items.

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How is it extreme? We can vote kick somebody for not pulling their weight in any other content, why should this be different?

We go in with normal loot rules because the usual people we run with aren't morons and we trust them to only need on the stuff they actually need. Using loot master only slows things down.

"Hold on guys, we can't go kill that next mob because we have to clear out the loot pool. Quick random for X piece so we know who to give it to.".

Yeah...screw that, anybody doing that for each and every piece isn't making the most of their time in there.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

How is it extreme? We can vote kick somebody for not pulling their weight in any other content, why should this be different?

We go in with normal loot rules because the usual people we run with aren't morons and we trust them to only need on the stuff they actually need. Using loot master only slows things down.

"Hold on guys, we can't go kill that next mob because we have to clear out the loot pool. Quick random for X piece so we know who to give it to.".

Yeah...screw that, anybody doing that for each and every piece isn't making the most of their time in there.

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but the people ARE morons and it's your fault to trust them. it doesn't take that much time to let the people roll greed in every i150 and i180, you only have to manage the i210. if there are more than one person who whants it let them roll with the /random command.

Went in with a premade.

They made a loot distribution rule to make everyone get the same amount.

I was the only one to pass on 7-10 pieces where others just disobeyed and needed and greeded on everything.

After the lootrule ultimatively failed, i started to need/greed as well, getting called out after i got 2 items that "you cant do this with people like azul"

then we came to our first NM. Both healers everything but healing, so after 2-3 wipes i got to SCH and we downed it.

A BLM Robe (BLM is my Raid/Main), i210 with Crit, Det AND Spellspeed dropped, und due to going for Healer, i couldn´t need it.

Hell was i pissed.

Don´t go with a premade... .just go with people you know and trust.... period.

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

As a workaround, and if you're going in with a full party... Set loot rule to "Lootmaster", and have those involved in combat (and eligible to that type of drop based on upgrade/greed rule you set) do /random. Designate loot to the winner of said random. No one out of range to show their random will be able to get it that way.
(It's an annoying method, I know, but... it's a possible workaround.)

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If you're getting time to roll, you're probably doing something wrong and being inefficient. It's not a good workaround.

Currently, I'm going to shy away from Diadem. Many groups on my server want to do GREED ONLY for items.

I'm NIN main, with having PLD as my second Lv60 job. To see an iLv210 Scouting piece fall to someone who's NIN isn't Lv60 grinds my gears. Until they understand that getting gear for their Lv ~59 alts will cause people to not join or leave, I hope they change this mentality.

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

I would consider it leeching on the simple fact they refused to help when asked, and still rolled on loot, despite not being willing to help earn said loot.

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Gatherers get a chance for a chest to spawn on them every time they swing, and last time I checked, the whole party rolls on their loot.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Thank you for the capslock, I failed to consider this option before I saw it here.


Actually we did, the gatherer simply said, screw you, should have thought of that before queueing, and then proceeded to roll on all loot. Why the capslock hostility btw? Do you not consider it fair that the whole team shares all the spoils? Or is it a one way street for the gatherers?

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if someone acts up, just leave. So far your the only one doing, bratty posts. Am i saying you ended up with asshayts and u should be punished. Nope... If people are not willing to communicate, just leavge go back in with friends. If id make a judgement call from ur posts, i say you are lacking in the communication department. And my caps are not to be hostile their for emphises because i had to hand write the bold syntext and it gets annoying.

ps acting snarky is prolly why you got a screw you fix ur attitude, and you might get ppl to listen to u.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

In duty finder? Are you on something?

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why the reply. Why is it such a bad thing to communicate with other human beings?

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

why the reply. Why is it such a bad thing to communicate with other human beings?

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they are no longer human beings after using the duty finder o.o/

The way they should have done it is have 1 or 2 additional slots in the party that are not necessary to enter, but can be hopped in and out of at will by gatherer's in the DF, and then not have nodes like normal, but have it so that when the player hit's their find node button, it finds ONE node, and notifies the party of it's location, and gives them an area they must defend. Then have it set so that it benefits both sides in some way, maybe after the node is finished a battle chest drops, but make the nodes have a mini-game of some sort to make it so that it's not just spammable to spawn massive loots, or give it a chance to pop fresh tracks, or something along those lines so that having gatherer's isn't a hinderance to the rest of the party but in fact a helping hand.

Honestly I was all on board with having a slot for Miners/Botany/Fishing in dungeons, but I also mentioned it as being a separate slot as well. I havn't done the gathering in exploration yet myself but I am assuming the items gathered are actually of use to the person? If so then they pretty much are going to screw people over without trying, If i go in with all purpose of gathering then my entire time is going to see me and of course be mad....but why? It's part of the content and I am allowed, now I do agree you shouldn't have access to roll on everything that pops (especially the 210 gear) but also, not like I can greed and win it all either right?

I dunno, I can see both sides but I guess if they can get chests just by gathering, can't complain either.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

Gatherers get a chance for a chest to spawn on them every time they swing, and last time I checked, the whole party rolls on their loot.

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Actually unless there is a special chest that I haven't gotten, the loot automatically drops to anyone in the party.
Not only that but it's red script crafting mats. I've yet to have it drop into my inventory so your welcome lol.
My plan is usually to attune and fight for the first 30 minutes, fishing for the next 30, then finish out the timer fighting. So far I only greed unique glamour unless Im in a pre made party. No 210 either. Doesn't really bug me cause I'm fishing for pterodactyls not gear.

I think the only solution is to expand the loot rules when solo queued. Like give Gatherers a special greed roll that only goes to 50 at Max. So the only way they can win is if everyone else rolls under 50. Maybe that's crazy but I think it's a bad idea to exclude Gatherers all together

I ve done it only once with my FC so far:
As we are a very small FC (only 2 active members), we entered the Diadem (with our FC ship), with a group of 2 (Monk and Scholar). And no completion to 8 people is done this way.

Once arrived, we managed to kill "I" monsters but took us around 5 min each time...
Well the good point is the chest loot is shared only between both of us, the little drawback is we cant kill a lot of them.
In order to synchronize wind, we ended up in aggroing to let the other get synchronized.

We then decided to explore a bit and turn into gather mode. But nodes are too heavily guarded and the sanction is one shot death around 1 node on 3.
Then we changed our mind and tried to locate other groups and join the killing.
We managed to get some chest pop for us for the half killing time (including one 210 stuff), but when the other groups were too big, that was nothing at all.

In the end, it was fun to discover the Diadem that way and there was 0 stress as we did exactly what we wanted to.
But i think we ll have no choice than to join DF mode next time, cause we cant do much with a group of 2.

First the Diadem was designed to be a FC content, and it s a good thing they finally added another mean to go (DF), cause a lot of drama would just have happened otherwise.
(FC dont have ship/ FC ship not ready/ too many people in FC to send all or just to schedule it/ too few people to do anything (our case))

from what i read around the thread:
- Vote kick: this option is valid in conventional dungeon/ raid cause there is only one aim to reach.
=> here we are more in a 90min sand box process (well oki not really, mainly gathering or fighting, but even in this case can be different aim in the team: cleaning a mining zone or a botanist one or a fishing spot or even fighting a specific monster rather than another: the discord can be at every corner).
=> anyone entering will just be unable to enter it again for the next 120min and no one can enter an ongoing instance (so kicking someone would just be double penalty)
=> I see a lot more potential abuse from vote kick than it really solve trouble.

- gatherer against fighters:
=> the main idea i see here is gatherer rolling on fighters hard work:
- one solution would be able to roll on every mat the gatherer can get.
While i totally agree on the fair principle, i think in reality, it would be only a pain more than anything else (either the message spam for every chop result, or even if automatically send to pocket: the space trouble it would bring with unwanted mat).
(i already see the total abuse of some people filling pocket of others with junk mat just to better roll on chest :) )
- I didnt saw it but if half or more turn to gathering, the rest of the group cant do decent job neither.

The best solution i saw around was to make a DF different according to entering people aim (or just a check box (gathering/ fighting (or both)) so that people set their main personal aim.
FC option would not be concerned cause a FC can easily communicate with members.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

So far your the only one doing, bratty posts. [...] If people are not willing to communicate, just leavge go back in with friends.

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But he just said that they did try to communicate, and that the gatherer in turn went "screw you, you should have expected me to leech". And in a way it is unfair that gatherers get to roll on combat loot. So far, the chests gatherers get have been a lot more scarce than combat chests -- sure, you can sell the mats on the MB, but you can hand non-optimal combat loot in for the new scraps, so even if you wouldn't equip them you still have good use for them. It'd be more fair if the silver scraps gatherers can get were offered up for lotting the same way.

Sure, there are gathering entries on the list of objectives, but not always the right gathering ones (I've seen lists without fishing options, for example, and without botanist options, etc), the same as the combat options aren't always the same. I haven't seen it yet, but I'd say it's possible there are even objectives lists that don't have any gathering options. To those people offering that excuse, would it still be fair for someone to go gather the entire time? Especially when the pre-agreed plan is combat?

And leaving isn't an option, not until they change the system. As it is, the two-hour cooldown starts when you enter. If you stay there the entire time, you only have half an hour left of the cooldown. If you leave after fifteen minutes, the cooldown until you can enter again is one hour and forty-five minutes.

I get why they have disabled the vote-kick (due to said cooldown), but since that's usually the way to get rid of dissenters, is it fair that said dissenter is holding them hostage? "Pff, stay here and allow me to leech, or leave and take your nearly-two-hour cooldown, haha!" Is it fair to make seven people leave ahead of time instead of kicking one person out?

SE said they'd evaluate the cooldown system and adjust it if there seemed to be a need for it, and... I'd say there is. I haven't personally run into anything like this, but then again I've only entered via the FC workshop with friends I know (with just my own FC, or a few from mine and a few from a friend's FC -- the time I joined the friend's FC run, they were going with Lootmaster, releasing all i180 and below to greedwar, and handing out higher equips based on actual need) so I haven't had to deal with PF/DF groups.

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Originally Posted by Pence

If you're getting time to roll, you're probably doing something wrong and being inefficient. It's not a good workaround.

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I did say it wasn't a good one ^^; But currently it's the only way to manage leechers. (Other than entering only with people you know and trust.)

Due to the amount of attention this thread has received, I have decided to update the cover page with some useful information for dealing with those who choose to grief the Diadem (as well as other encounters).

There definitely needs to be some grounds rules in place for people doing diadem, or the party just goes to hell.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

if someone acts up, just leave. So far your the only one doing, bratty posts. Am i saying you ended up with asshayts and u should be punished. Nope... If people are not willing to communicate, just leavge go back in with friends. If id make a judgement call from ur posts, i say you are lacking in the communication department. And my caps are not to be hostile their for emphises because i had to hand write the bold syntext and it gets annoying.

ps acting snarky is prolly why you got a screw you fix ur attitude, and you might get ppl to listen to u.

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Lol. Just leave.... do you know how it even works? Nice work avoiding the question though.
Actually I communicate very politely until things fall apart. And as for bratty posts, I did try to start a positive thread with ways to make Diadem better for DF queues, but people prefer these hate fest threads more. In the end though you really shouldn't be criticising others communication skills, especially when you went on to say, "I could have communicated my point better, but doing it that way is annoying..."

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Not putting it in the duty finder would have solved all these problems. Then every group that went in has clear expectations on why they are going in. This is a clear example of content that should never have been shoved into the duty finder.

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This is a clear example of why the community needs to change. Simply saying that you should expect the worst from DF isn't how you solve anything. Back in the day playing WoW this was never an issue when playing with random people. There are certain expectations of etiquette in games that are to be followed. Unfortunately the "Call of Duty" generation has no idea what that is.

That's odd because I keep hearing that it's because of WoW that built this kind of negativity.

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Originally Posted by Amarante

Make gathers loot available in the treasure loot pool. Solved ^^

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unless I misunderstood the posts in this topic alone, any chest that a gatherer unearths and opens grants loot pretty much like a treasure map by allocating any basic stuffs randomly within the party and allowing all party members to lot on anything good. So, doesn't that mean that the problem is solved? Unless you're saying that literally every scrap of material the gatherer harvests from nodes must be shared too. I think that's an extremely unfair and arguable point.

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Originally Posted by Tint

but the people ARE morons and it's your fault to trust them.

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I think you're missing the point. There's no reason for people to not be able to follow the rules and be a decent person. Hand holding shouldn't be a requirement for group content and doing so (distributing loot in such a manner) is far less efficient than if everyone could just follow the pre-established rules. This is why we should have the vote kick option available in there. Who cares if they're going to get locked out...they should have thought about that before they decided to act like idiots.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

That's odd because I keep hearing that it's because of WoW that built this kind of negativity.

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I heard it was LOL.

Alright so I'll pose this question: If you're expected to always be helping fighting and killing enemies, when are you supposed to go gathering?

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Alright so I'll pose this question: If you're expected to always be helping fighting and killing enemies, when are you supposed to go gathering?

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Nobody is saying not to gather. The gripe is that people go in, help get the aether currents and then ignore the group to do their own thing while still taking loot from the group that they did no work for. No reason people can't help clear an area and then gather in said area and if they choose to sit and do nothing but gather then they shouldn't be rolling on combat loot.

Has there ever been any content released that people haven't instantly come to the forums to whinge about lol

I've done maybe 15 df runs. Sure there were a couple that so many people went off to gather we couldn't get credit. so the rest of us just gathered as well. and then there were some where we all just killed mobs the whole time.

Honestly the content has only been out a couple of days. I don't think anyone has done enough runs to say that consistently something always happens. quit moaning

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

Snip

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It doesn't matter. This is an issue that's worth talking about and it made itself apparent in only a few days.