Ways to fix BRD and MCH in a realistic way

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

Be as patronizing all you want, honeymuffins, but you haven't really countered my claims with anything but "Oh, well someone else can do it. Not as well as you, but they can." and I'm waiting for reasoning why it's better for them to do it than us.

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Except I was editing to pass post limit.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

songs. bam meaning to bards.

mobility is something you specifically want.

you can still deal damage without moving. blm's do it just fine. you can too.

stop pretending you have to run around 90% of the fight. if you had to blms would be kicked from raids.



congrats going to t13 in full bis lets you do the fight easily.



awww thanks for the recognition <3

but seriously i am a troll because bards lose something that is only important to bards that only play the job for mobility?

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You're... not even reading my posts, are you?

Yeah, should've known. Sigh.

Moving on.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

Doesn't deny they did it. Maybe you just need to look to yourself then if all they needed to do was go full BiS.

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the exception doesn't make the rule.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

You're... not even reading my posts, are you?

Yeah, should've known. Sigh.

Moving on.

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well see in the end the discussion has changed from. songs are only secondary to, ok songs are only secondary to me because i play the job for mobility.

taking that away does nothing to the actual job, only to you who plays it for that reason.

On note of the subject...I don't mind the concept of WM and how its supposed to buff our damage, but It's simply horribly implemented. Trying to attach it to our Songs is bad idea, as the song mechanic is outdated and clunky IMO. it works as it is mostly because it's a non-essential aspect of our personal play. we trigger a song on request, and go back to doing damage. but making our job depend on adding a song with a huge cast time in our rotation is horribad. There's lots of different ways they could have done it, and for some reason they chose the worst.


It would be one thing if it actually buffed our DPS to levels of other DPS classes. at THAT point we could say, "OK, turning it on sucks, but i can keep up with a BLM, so im good with it. i can turn off and move and still do some damage if i want too." but instead, we have clunky mechanic with cast time to initiate, that gives us the DPS of a tank. exciting. I'd rather keep it off, keep my movement, and still have the DPS of a tank.

On the flip side, they are planning on boosting our damage from what I hear. Not sure how i will take it even if the damage is buffed...again, like many others, if i wanted to play a caster class, I would have rolled a BLM. There's a reason that my BLM is lvl 25, and my archer was my main in 2.x ... the same reason that they killed with WM.

Id almost prefer a trigger stance like Conjurers have. give us a 10% damage boost or something basic, you can lock the new damage skills behind it, and you can do something like, "in Battle stance Bard may not perform songs as his harp is put away!" or something like that. so if we want to buff the party and do stuff like that, we drop the stance, and lose our big hitters and the 10% buff. simple and easy. we get damage, but we lose our buff ability to do it.

Meh...now that I think about that, it's not much different from the songs themselves (damage debuff while they're active). perhaps they should just get rid of the song altogether, and just make our new skills have cast times, and label them as "sniper skills" or something like that. or make the stance buff a damage increase as long as were standing still. either of those stay with the mobile concept, allow us increased damage but at the cost of extra mobility during those high damage periods.

In another post someone had mentioned having a stance that increased your damage when standing still in a tiered method...for each time frame you were standing still, you got X% buff in damage. the second you move, you lost it. that would give us a reason to stand still, but the more movement we had, the less damage we'd do. and we couldn't just stand still for a second and get max damage...the buff would have to stack 4-5x for maximum bonus, so you'd need to be still for at least that many cycles.

As an example, if the cycle was a second, you'd have to stay still for 5 seconds to get the full buff. or perhaps 1.5 seconds, and 7.5 seconds for full buff. the cycle time depends on whats reasonable given boss mechanics in most runs. That would also open up an option for them to add a skill on a longer CD that would immediately give us a full stack, so once every minute or so we could drop full burst without having to pick our nose for 5-7 seconds first.

This would give us the damage boost, limit it if we have to move (similar to cast times), and keep the theme of the bard/ranger/sniper thingy (stand still for higher damage, but be mobile with lower damage). adding it as a stance makes it a trigger we have to think about outside our standard buff cycles, and locking the new skills behind it would assure that we are only going to do the high levels of damage when we are using our mobility "limiting" stance.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

the exception doesn't make the rule.

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How far is this really an exception? Gear farming is a natural part of the game, is it not? It's not as if they went above and beyond according to you. Most solid FCs have high rank crafters than can provide the crafted parts, running older turns for the gear is normal for many statics, and anything that might be tomes based is just as easily farmed doing dailies.

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Originally Posted by Temjiu

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Honestly, I'm not against it actually showing a bigger increase when we're in wanderer's or it not even being a song. I'm against these posters who are talking like they want to do more DPS to reach up to other DPS'ers period when they have so many benefits to the job as it is.

Acting like this is something permanent like if we can't take wanderer's off at all and forever losing movement then also giving off the expression of us being taken to content mainly because we can move is ridiculous.

It's convenient that we can move and DPS for raids or big content yes, but that's not the main reason we're looked for since other jobs as I said can move and do the same thing while having a job with bigger DPS fill in for their loss.

That some bards choose to run around while shooting is their own preference. I like to stand still and only move when required while keeping my distance. WM would be great if they tweaked it better, like removing that "cast".
We know our songs are benificial to the rest of the party and it's all situational which songs we use when, the TP song being tougher to guess when to use, but not impossible.

Both mobility and our songs are trump cards for Bards. But the biggest trump card is how to handle both. If you're worried about one of the songs lowering your DPS by 15%, then hit Raging Strikes and get that 15% back with an additional 5% extra.

EDIT:
Out of curiosity I opened Google Sheets and calculated if WM does give us a loss in DPS. Do take these stats with a grain of salt, as I used some simple numbers instead my actual DPS.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...psuxri9tky.jpg

Surprisingly Wanderer's Minuet DOES do 20% more damage. I'm going to test this out in my FC's backyard later.
Going by these numbers, if you think you did great on Bard pre-3.0 then you get about 10 seconds to dodge stuff per minute whilst in WM to not let your DPS suffer too much in comparison on how strong you were before and instead have only wasted WM for that moment.

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Originally Posted by Lillia

Honestly, I'm not against it actually showing a bigger increase when we're in wanderer's or it not even being a song. I'm against these posters who are talking like they want to do more DPS to reach up to other DPS'ers period when they have so many benefits to the job as it is.

Acting like this is something permanent like if we can't take wanderer's off at all and forever losing movement then also giving off the expression of us being taken to content mainly because we can move is ridiculous.

It's convenient that we can move and DPS for raids or big content yes, but that's not the main reason we're looked for since other jobs as I said can move and do the same thing while having a job with bigger DPS fill in for their loss.

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I think that's the catch. This wasn't a huge issue in 2.x because our damage was good, but not as high as other DPS. but it was high enough to validate us coming, in addition to our buffs. as of now, with other classes getting buff abilities, and tanks doing as much damage as we are now...it really calls into question the BRD role, which is probably why people are arguing the point. I haven't been around ffxiv long enough to know if these same arguments were around back before BRD's did decent damage, but I wouldn't be surprised. balance is always a tough issue when a class is perceived as having support functionality outside their primary role (which in this case is DPS). the 2.x solution seemed to work, perhaps if they got back to that people would be a bit more happy.

Again, goes back to damage. Honestly, if i can pump out the damage of other DPS classes with these changes, IM OK with that. If they eliminate the "casting" requirements, but lower our dps to a "Viable but slightly under the other DPS" classes im fine with that too. but both? not justifiable given the current status of other classes. if we have to play a BLM to get DPS, then i want the DPS of a BLM. or Scholar. anything lower is unacceptable, as we aren't being a BRD at that point. were BLM with the option of turning off our DPS to give people songs (that are rarely needed nowadays).

On the note of the song: IM Ok if it feels like it fits into the continuum. Even though I dont' play BLM (im one of those guys that played BRD because i like the mobility and no cast times), when I DO play my lvl 25 BLM, it feels smooth...the class was designed around cast timers, and rotations involve that. having this 3 sec song as part of a regular rotation really feels clunky. at the least, i'd like to get that removed.

Fix bard in a realistic way? Change Minuet damage increase to 30%. Done.

No clue about MCH, but the same thing would probably work.

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Originally Posted by Eirwen

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Unfortunately I don't think that'll be enough to convince people as the argument tossed at those calculations will then be how it's a perfect situation and not one you move around or have to dodge in.

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Originally Posted by Temjiu

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If only everyone was this reasonable and easy to exchange thoughts with but I agree completely, WM does need fixes and I do think that this is one of the main problems right now. If you take a moment to look as I was trying to point out before, we don't really have any new rotation or buffs right now except the ones we've always been using, it's hard to make an actual complain on whether we do or don't do better damage with the current WM that we have now because of how clunky it is when it's being used and how little the damage does seem affect us right now when you're also adding in the slightly long cast times.

I am one of the people who doesn't mind the thought of being pinned down for a few moments though so I am also a little biased when it comes to that though. :p But even if we were able to move under certain conditions, I wouldn't really mind unless it was in an overpowering manner that would be unfair to other classes.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

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I think another problem with MCH is their RNG which is actually messing them over as well, it has a few more clunks than Bard does which is why they are currently from my knowledge even lower than us.

You guys do make my head hurt. The only people so far this entire time who have said "lol, bards should do same dps as the rest" have been people like Musa and why they keep thinking we say that is beyond reasoning. People like me and Intel understand why we do less damage overall and are okay with that. What we aren't okay with is how far below the par we've dropped. Compared to our par with other dps before HW and now, the gap is getting bigger. Minuet is suppose to make up for that but it's so clunky and lacks synergy with who we are that it calls into question its overall usefulness. And even outside of usefulness, people are peeved because it is going against one of the aesthetics advertised as a Bard early on.

Which brings another thing. No one has said that the only reason we are brought to anything is because Legolas. My entire time here has been to rebut claims that the only thing important about a Bard is their songs. A sensible person is not going to only see one third of what makes a Bard. You need to see ALL that we offer:

-We provide a mechanic of supplementation to other roles, either increasing damage or refreshing resources.
-We deal moderate levels of damage with efficient spikes throughout a fight.
-We can maneuver seamlessly through a battlefield without having to sacrifice our core role's mechanic.

This is everything that makes a Bard. And the value of one over another is a constantly shifting system. Sometimes people need our support, other times we need our mobility, and every time when neither of those apply WE ESPECIALLY NEED OUR DAMAGE.

I don't hate Wanderer's, I see the potential. I've been using it plenty and am getting a better hang of it, but as it is right now it's warped and needs some serious fine tuning. The best thing right now would remove that damn cast time. Giving us that the synergy with it would increase exponentially. Not doing anything for a couple minutes we pop Wanderer's and go to town, taking it back off to work a mechanic while still providing damage, then going right back into it when the work is done. That would be great.

But another issue that arises is when we need to be in Wanderer's for that damage but the fight makes it increasingly hard to pull off our rotations. And it's understandable that casters have had to deal with this shit since day one, for every enhanced fireball a BLM can throw we would need two or three Straight shots or two Empyreal Arrows. Hell, once a SMN has all their dots on and their pet on the target that's 3/4th their damage cycle so having to interrupt a Ruin isn't heartbreaking. So yeah, if we are gonna be sacrificing one aspect for another, we need it to count.

Of course, they could also make it so they are blended together well enough, little more damage with little less mobility. I've said in the past what they could do is not make it a cast entirely, but make it so it's a charge that slows us down. About the same speed we move when we are back stepping while locked on, but as this while charging a weaponskill.

So it's best were we to get one or the other. Just not what we have right now.

Another issue atm is we could also use some tuning to the support aspect. As it is right now, everyone is getting some support mechanic to their kits that doesn't hurt them. Only exception I think is NIN. Skills that mark debuffs or skills that give the entire party a damage or crit buff. Something. We need something else to go beyond that. MP/TP regen onyl goes so far and this new pre-esuna nonsense was just a slap in the face.

So honestly, I feel right now every one of our aspects is in dangerous territory.

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Originally Posted by Lillia

Unfortunately I don't think that'll be enough to convince people as the argument tossed at those calculations will then be how it's a perfect situation and not one you move around or have to dodge in.

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Well yeah, there's always that. Can't satisfy the entire game population. There's always something. Wanting to keep the 20% damage bonus and being able to dodge without losing DPS.

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Originally Posted by Eirwen

EDIT:
Out of curiosity I opened Google Sheets and calculated if WM does give us a loss in DPS. Do take these stats with a grain of salt, as I used some simple numbers instead my actual DPS.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...psuxri9tky.jpg

Surprisingly Wanderer's Minuet DOES do 20% more damage. I'm going to test this out in my FC's backyard later.
Going by these numbers, if you think you did great on Bard pre-3.0 then you get about 10 seconds to dodge stuff per minute whilst in WM to not let your DPS suffer too much in comparison on how strong you were before and instead have only wasted WM for that moment.

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This math is so wrong it hurts my brain.

One - you're completely ignoring auto attacks
Two - the GCD is the same in and out of minuet.

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Originally Posted by Eirwen

Well yeah, there's always that. Can't satisfy the entire game population. There's always something. Wanting to keep the 20% damage bonus and being able to dodge without losing DPS.

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rofl and there it goes right below your post, though I can't say they are wrong. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Lillia

rofl and there it goes right below your post, though I can't say they are wrong. ^^;

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Haha, true! :)

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Originally Posted by emmgee

This math is so wrong it hurts my brain.

One - you're completely ignoring auto attacks
Two - the GCD is the same in and out of minuet.

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Yep, I ignored auto attacks. Or did I? Doesn't auto-attack get included in the Damage Per Second? Eh?
And yes, GCD is the same in and out of minuet, but I added the casting time of WM to that under the same name.
Sorry I wasn't all that accurate and like to see some real results.

P.S. I did say to take it with a grain of salt :p

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

songs. A sensible person is not going to only see one third of what makes a Bard. You need to see ALL that we offer:

-We provide a mechanic of supplementation to other roles, either increasing damage or refreshing resources.
-We deal moderate levels of damage with efficient spikes throughout a fight.
-We can maneuver seamlessly through a battlefield without having to sacrifice our core role's mechanic.

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1 songs
2 you deal damage
3 nothing?

seriously you have 1 thing going for you in that list. songs.

everyone deals damage even healers.

don't sacrifice core mechanics of the job in battle? you mean you can run and shoot at the same time? lol great quality too bad nobody picks you for that.


the only thing you keep repeating is i don't do enough, it says i am dps and i shouldn't lose mobility that i like so much!!!


we gained 10 lvls and 55 ilvls in weapons and 45 ilvls in gear guess what the gap is going to get bigger the damage gap in weapon damage also got bigger by 1 damage.

135 is 6 damage difference from other dps and 190 is a 7 damage difference.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

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there are 4 dps and 2 tanks, that means there is at least 2 people in your raid that will run out of tp no if's and's or but's

if you have at least 1 melee that's 3 without a bard all 3 lose 100% of their dpsing capabilities about what 4 minutes in?

bards keep the whole raid running, no other job comes even close to what a bards songs can do. goad? sure now you only lose 2 jobs (if you use 3 melees as an example) but you still lose lots of dps because of the lack of songs and this isn't including mages ballad for when your heals will run out of mp because they will and they you lose all survivablity.

A correct estimation of damage increase in WM would have to take into account the following:

The loss of auto attacks (100pot/3s) in minuet. Auto attacks have been roughly 25% of our damage pre-HW.
The difference in determination scaling of auto attacks and weaponskills (this was changed in HW)
The amount of skillspeed you have (the more Sks you have, the better WM should become compared to normal)
The estimated PPS difference of having access to Empyrean Arrow - its roughly +100 potency (compared to a heavy shot) every 15s
The difference of having access to Iron jaw (roughly 1 gcd saved every 18s)
The lost bloodletters in WM from only being able to use one oGCD inbetween skills

In short, you can't look at '20% damage' and take it at face value - in reality the bonus is FAR SMALLER than that, even in a dummy. My parses have shown around a 5% increase in dummy dps. Losing auto attacks is HUGE.

BRD and MCH take a dps slot , and im sure SE is aware that some raids wont have a brd 100% all the time , what happens when BRD and MCH arent avaliable? even for statics with 9-10+ members...

the whole coil and in the end more than at the start all was a dps race , with LOTS OF DPS CHECKS , if BRD/MCH arent putting numbers or doing "dps" and helping others members doing more dmg then SE Failed to design BRD.

brd is usefull? kinda....but the low dmg dont makes up for it...., ppl like to talk about "balance" and dps , support....

please tell me why a warrior even taken as DPS atm has wayyyyyy more support than any brd will dream of ,Burst DPS , AOE DPS , -10% dmg taken , slashing debuff ,can OT or MT if needed ...while outdpsing both brd and mch on abandon mode (not tanking)

SMN , atm is the AOE king , and can sustain good single target/cleave dps , on top of eye for eye , virus , and battle raise , all while being semi-mobile

Nin , isnt the best dps atm (Drg and mnk are better afaik) ,but NIn brings Melee LB, Trick attack , goad , and agro transfers to the table

all the jobs have been improved in HW but BRD , jobs that needed more DPS got that (have u seen whm atm?) , jobs that lacked AOE healing (SCH) or burst DPS( SMN ) got that in HW

Make GB and WM useful? Pretty much take out the cast time, or give back the auto attack. I noticed I do a lot more damage without my GB on. Not lvl60 yet, but I'm doing it extremely slow so I won't get burned out after a month, like what happened with the 2.0 release.


No GB:
Auto-attack: 200-300
Damage with skills:400-550 (no crit)


GB:
Damage with skills: 600-700


So in the perfect condition you hit the same/more without using GB. Especially since there is a 1second cast time, and we mch are still stuck with the rngesus for optimal damage.
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...63/486/496.jpg


The other method would be losing the rng and just give it 100% proc rate.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

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Stop posting in a thread about a class you clearly have no clue about.

I find it interesting the most verbal opponents yet most ignorant of the class in these threads tends to mostly come from people who claim to know the class despite not even having a capped bard themselves. The amount of fear mongering about possible changes by those of other classes stinks of wanting to screw over this class or machinist to make themselves look better in group composition or plain old ignorance. Perhaps stick to threads you might have a better understanding of such as your own class ones instead of spouting nonsense in different class ones you have no experience playing in endgame content at capped level and fully unlocked/used skills.

Just because you have an opinion about something which potentially have little to no practical experience with and you on the outside looking in does not make that opinion worth much, the people SE need to listen to about the problems with bards and machinists are the players who actually do play them, have the practical experience of using them in high level content using all the skills themselves on the class itself and not other players of other classes just throwing in ignorant or fear mongering comments. I also dislike when a low level archer or bard thinks they know what it is like to play at capped level using skills they have yet to unlock, in the sense of them arguing with those bards who have spent a lot of time experiencing all the skills it has at the capped level in high end content. Practical experience with the class trumps theory crafting and generic opinions of other class players.

It is becoming very annoying when people who do not play a class come into threads talking about them as though they know the class when clearly they don't and I see this all the time whenever a class thread comes up other classes pop in and voice their opinion on it despite having no practical experience playing it themselves. The class discussion is better suited to those whom are both informed and experienced in using it. Why don't you start a bard, cap it and experience what it is like to play in endgame content using all the skills on that class...then come back and have a more insightful opinion on it. Not all bards who have such practical experience agree with each other but at least in those cases they are coming from a position of experience and first hand knowledge instead of random guess work, inexperienced assumption and mere outside theory crafting.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Stop posting in a thread about a class you clearly have no clue about.

I find it interesting the most verbal opponents yet most ignorant of the class in these threads tends to mostly come from people who claim to know the class despite not even having a capped bard themselves. The amount of fear mongering about possible changes by those of other classes stinks of wanting to screw over this class or machinist to make themselves look better in group composition or plain old ignorance.

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so just like the others instead of actually having a discussion the only thing you have to refute my arguments is nu huh you aren't lvl 60 like me. seriously?

there is no fear mongering. bards lack dps due to the giant role they play in raids. one that no other job can replace.

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Originally Posted by Eirwen

Do you see how stupid this sounds? It's how you sound.

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oh to exaggerations now huh? come on guys graspin straws now?

bards job is not to keep up with everyone else in dps it's why it's lower.

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Originally Posted by emmgee

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A 5% increase, huh? That IS a very significant loss if you look at it that way. Thanks for clarifying this.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

snip and nuder

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Musa, I see your highest is a PLD60.

You have 1 thing going for you and that is to keep the mobs on you.
Don't you dare lose a single one out of your grasp.

You're not a healer.
You're not a buffer.
You're not a DPS.

Forget about using the Rage of Halone combo because by the time you get there, you've lost a mob from the pull because of how weak your hits are.
Stick to your Flash and Circle of Scorn and then cry to any Bard near you for Mage's Ballad.

Also don't stun anything. Leave that to the DPS.

Do you see how stupid this sounds? It's how you sound.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Stop posting in a thread about a class you clearly have no clue about.

I find it interesting the most verbal opponents yet most ignorant of the class in these threads tends to mostly come from people who claim to know the class despite not even having a capped bard themselves. The amount of fear mongering about possible changes by those of other classes stinks of wanting to screw over this class or machinist to make themselves look better in group composition or plain old ignorance.

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We all have the ability to have multiple characters, just because some posters don't have bard max'd on their current characters shown on forums doesn't imply that they don't have other characters who is a bard that is leveled. Someone in a different thread proved this same situation to someone else who literally didn't even notice they were replying to the same person after the character shown was switched over.

and I'm not using this as a defense for any certain poster, I've just seen this done through the span of this topic and it's really just a baseless insult to those who probably just aren't showing off their bard characters.

I show my character as bard because this is my main but I do have other characters myself on different servers which are different jobs in order to be with friends.

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Originally Posted by Lillia

We all have the ability to have multiple characters, just because some posters don't have bard max'd on their current characters shown on forums doesn't imply that they don't have other characters who is a bard that is leveled. Someone in a different thread proved this same situation to someone else who literally didn't even notice they were replying to the same person after the character shown was switched over.

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Which would be fair enough if I had used only his current character class shown as the sole reason why I said what I did but I also took into account what he was saying as evidence alongside his current character shown as to his inexperience with playing the bard class within high level content and showing an apparent lack of full practical knowledge of the skills, trial and tribulations of the class at capped level in such content.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

you can still deal damage without moving. blm's do it just fine. you can too.

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The difference being - look at the dps differences. WM does not increase DPS essentially is half the damn point. There are many people in this thread who aren't complaining about mobility - they're complaining about the fact that when they give up said mobility they get nothing out of it except continued substandard dps...

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Originally Posted by Intellion

You're... not even reading my posts, are you?

Yeah, should've known. Sigh.

Moving on.

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Yeah youre both wrong. There is no support role, nor is there a "mobility" role ... seriously? Every DPS has to move at one point or another and a lot of them can even attack while moving (kite). Albeit to a lesser degree. Are you afraid that we'll suddenly be unable to avoid AoE's? Lets get one thing straight, its only SOME Bards who are suddenly crying foul over mobility. Plenty of us just want our DPS brought into par with the rest of the classes so we'll stop getting kicked before the first pull. With, or without the ability to avoid AoE's in ez-mode.

I for one am glad theyre finally getting Bards settled into their role. Up to now we were some half-assed buffing class with crap DPS to balance out our "mobility." We were so screwed up we even had an LB heal! WTF is that? No, we're DPS and DPS should be priority when designing this job going forward. Our so called support is 'meh', replaceable, and not even necessary most of the time. Mobility isnt even a role or a practical contribution to a group. Its a personal playstyle perk (at best) thats had us gimped on DPS since ARR. Enough is enough, we got our DPS LB, finally, now our damage output should follow suit.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Which would be fair enough if I had used only his current character class shown as the sole reason why I said what I did but I also took into account what he was saying as evidence alongside his current character shown as to his inexperience with playing the bard class within high level content and showing an apparent lack of full practical knowledge of the skills, trial and tribulations of the class at capped level in such content.

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Honestly I've been kind of ignoring him but.... from the last post.... urm... what exactly is wrong with it? We are lower and as a whole we shouldn't be doing more damage when not in WM with all the stuff we can do... I do want WM to be buffed but.... even if he is trolling I just don't see it.

In raids tanks will always run out of TP and if a ninja goads a tank then they can't goad themselves meaning that we will always need to regen a TP though bard's dps may be a problem, as someone pointed out to me in the other bard thread... others are losing as much dps with down time if there is TP issues period.

Our weapon damage is screwed compared to others not that it's much of a change from before though I'd like it looked at if WM isn't fixed dmg wise... I mean... I just don't see it?

Meanwhile Intellion and Lewt have literally.... no argument no offense. Intel is arguing how our biggest advantage is movement in raids and why we are taken vs our usefulness in song while Lewt literally just contradicted themselves in their last post by saying Musa said bards should do as much DPS as other DPS... while they were saying the whole movement and DPS argument the whole time when so far I don't see that argument being done by him this whole time, more like hes arguing song vs mobility with Intel and why others take us...

I'm a i179 BRD and just got MCH to 53 yesterday. While I agree that BRD needs subtle tweaks, I also realize that most people who are complaining either don't have BRD to 60, they don't have i179 gear, they don't know their rotation, or they don't know how to adapt to fights. When I first entered Bismark Extreme, we couldn't make the DPS check. I tweaked my adaptation to the fight and the second time I went in, we got past it (Yes, it was an entirely different group, but overall iLvl was lower.). You just need to know when to pop songs and when to turn off WM. I think SE's intent of WM was to be situational. I agree that the time it takes to cast is annoying and once it's originally cancelled, it probably isn't worth casting again. This is being looked into by SE and hopefully will be fixed (looks promising). I also agree that they need a slight damage boost overall, but besides that if you meet requirements of the 4 points above, your DPS should be good for a support role.

Now as far as MCH goes, once I got my lvl 52 quest ability last night, I'm kind of disappointed. I didn't know much about MCH before leveling it up a few days ago, but it really is just a BRD with guns now after getting Gauss Barrel. I mean, why did they have to give them a Wanderer's Minuet clone? I believe they should fix this a bit and make them a little more unique as their job was up until 52. Besides that, I can't really comment much on MCH end game.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

The difference being - look at the dps differences. WM does not increase DPS essentially is half the damn point. There are many people in this thread who aren't complaining about mobility - they're complaining about the fact that when they give up said mobility they get nothing out of it except continued substandard dps...

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True, I do not personally mind giving up 'some' mobility for an increase in DPS output but the fact is not only are half the skills we gained from 3.0 highly flawed and badly implemented but also the class has not been scaled correctly and needs a re-evaluation and fixing plus a slight DPS increase through either WD, potency or lowering of skill use cast timers as examples while under WM. We do not need to be equal to the DPS output of some other DPS classes but we sure as hell need an increase to what we have right now in order to be little closer to theirs than we currently are. The rise of bards and machinists being kicked from high end group content, locked out of even joining such content or being insulted not based on their skill at playing the class but merely for playing the class itself is becoming very worrisome.

We need some major fixes to some of the current skills and some minor fixes to the DPS output, machinist are in an even worse position but both ranged physical DPS classes are in need of fixing.

I liken the current state of bards and machinists to that of what SMN and DRG used to be, 3.0 fixed those classes in a big way which is why you almost never see much in the way of complaint threads about them anymore unlike how often would see them in the past when the classes were in a bad position like the ranged physical ones are right now. I am just hoping it does not take SE as long to fix our classes as did SMN and DRG. I find it a little annoying also when a DRG for example which I have seen happen comes in to have a go at bards asking the class to be fixed when prior to 3.0 many DRG's were doing the same thing in asking theirs to be fixed...how quickly some people change their tune when it is no longer their class which needs fixing.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

snip

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I like how you know everything about my life (you know how and how much i played my bard in previous contents)

Anyway SE actions are clear on this matter, and they are game designers by profession (Yoshi-p also saved a game that was dead and now has 5 millions users), if they made such an hard choice maybe what i told was not so incredible.

Honestly the only thing that should even matter is this; Post about Bard and the fact we are being fixed regardless of what anyone says. Let the dev's do the job they are being paid to do and let us give the appropriate feedback when the content or fixes goes wrong.

Otherwise once it's acknowledged then just let them be and fix what needs to be fixed before complaining more, also just because one person wants to troll or another whines doesn't mean we aren't going to get the fixes we need in the end so relax people.

http://m0.joe.ie/wp-content/uploads/...h-FacePalm.gif

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Originally Posted by Lillia

Lewt literally just contradicted themselves in their last post by saying Musa said bards should do as much DPS as other DPS...

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Blech, this was poor wording on my part. I just want to clear this up and I'll be done.

I wasn't saying that Musa was saying that bards should have equal DPS. I was saying that only people like Musa have been saying that we (and by we I mean Intell, myself, and others) have been saying that bards need equal DPS. Basically he and others would put those words in our mouths, cause if you see, we all kept saying we want more damage, not just as much.

That clarified, yes, the devs have taken notice already. These posts have been rather redundant obviously, but when has that ever stopped anyone on here so far? It's good to vent though; people feel things need be said and they say them, despite being contested or not. And I have said my piece, though I'm sure I could have said it better, so I'm pretty much good on this topic.

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding things.

A Bard and Machinist's main duty is to provide a below average amount of DpS and increase the group's average DpS through TP/MP Regen and a Physical or Magical Damage boosts. The combination of the below average DpS and the DpS gained by others through TP/MP Regen + Foe Requiem/Hot Shot is supposed to allow them to provide roughly the same DpS as the other ranged classes.

Average DpS comes in 2 states "Mobile DpS" and "Stationary DpS." All classes were balanced during 2.X around only Mobile DpS. When Stationary DpS fights such as The Avatar were added, problems started appearing as Bard Mobile DpS and Stationary DpS are the same while every other class has a sharp increase in DpS between Mobile and Stationary.

Wanderer's Minuet and Gauss Barrel are intended to rectify this difference in Mobile/Stationary DpS. The problem is that these abilities were overbalanced and ended up not providing the boost in Stationary DpS they were intended to. Perhaps the best/simplest way to fix the problem is to increase the amount that WM and GB increase damage by around 15% of base damage.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

Blech, this was poor wording on my part. I just want to clear this up and I'll be done.

I wasn't saying that Musa was saying that bards should have equal DPS. I was saying that only people like Musa have been saying that we (and by we I mean Intell, myself, and others) have been saying that bards need equal DPS. Basically he and others would put those words in our mouths, cause if you see, we all kept saying we want more damage, not just as much.

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More dps... not just as much....? anyways... if you meant you want more dps than what you do now then WM will probably be up your alley when it's fixed but you won't ever have more dps than a dragoon or monk.... and I just did a serious back track on his whole converse... it's all about mobility vs songs along with bards doing low dps never about you wanting as much even Intel said was low dps was a bard thing before this patch so she technically agreed...

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Originally Posted by Intellion

So in ARR, these are what defined the different DPS classes:

Melee: High-powered, instant melee attacks. Mobile.
Casters: High-powered ranged spells with casting times. Immobile.
Ranged: Low-powered, instant ranged attacks. Mobile.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

Our DPS doesn't have to be high. It's a tradeoff we get for our mobility and utility. After all, our class is all about mobility since we compensate for our low damage by being able to maintain DPS while dodging and rapid-firing oGCDs and procs. Just expand on our current gameplay without drastically changing it

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And from what I read, Intel doesn't even have a problem doing low dps, it's mobility issues with WM because WM isn't showing any real boost unless I'm misunderstanding something. -.- You were fighting with him about the whole song vs movement stuff and wanting more dps and he never even said bard should do less, he said they currently do less by the way also that songs are a big deal for our job and what we are used for.

Anyways... My head hurts and I'm done with this thread, if you want more DPS than you have atm then wait for WM fixes, don't whine about it....


Edit:

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

Otherwise, you put those words in our mouths, not ourselves

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Yep, I did say it and I stand by it 100% and yes some people have said it before and I am against them but I also said these posters, not you or intel or anyone else. I'm not willing to backtrack to every post or thread to post names etc either so that was easier to say and not to be rude but my every posts or comments don't revolve around you nor intel nor is every piece of a post directed at either of you and the reply wasn't even to you but a reply to someone else.

and you may want to correct your last post too because it can be misunderstood like that which is why I asked because I wasn't putting that in your mouth.. but you legit said the below soooo and I even said that Intel's problem was with movement in WM..

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

cause if you see, we all kept saying we want more damage, not just as much.

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I just thought of an amusing buff that'd make bards everyone's favorite party support member again: Let WM add a 5% DPS bonus to everyone else in the group, in addition to our 20% bonus. Right now we get Foe's but that only applies to elemental damage.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

A Bard and Machinist's main duty is to provide a below average amount of DpS and increase the group's average DpS through TP/MP Regen and a Physical or Magical Damage boosts. The combination of the below average DpS and the DpS gained by others through TP/MP Regen + Foe Requiem/Hot Shot is supposed to allow them to provide roughly the same DpS as the other ranged classes.

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If thats true then we need a melee buff songs, maybe some avoidance, +crit, +accuracy... you know, buffs. Actual buffs. Because some crappy 10% magic damage debuff (no its actually -resistance)that only helps with casters, and resource regens that youll never need with experienced players, sounds like a whole lot of bulldookie for a class thats not only does less damage while buffing the group, it also takes a another nerf by design.

Even WoW hunters get much better group buffs (definitely better for DPS) than we do. All the while DPSing with the best of them. Thats just a damned shame.

I deeply regret leveling MCH. I've never felt this way about a class before in an MMO

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Originally Posted by Lillia

Limit.

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I see you missed the point I had made that I've been using Wanderer's, but agree that it needs to provide better damage. And yes, more damage, just not as much >as other DPS<. You missed that context right there.

And fair point, it was never Musa that said it. I've gotten confused, it was you who claimed we were making a call that we wanted to do just as much as other DPS.

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Originally Posted by Lillia

I'm against these posters who are talking like they want to do more DPS to reach up to other DPS'ers period when they have so many benefits to the job as it is

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This is what I was saying. It wasn't "Oh, he said Bards need do equal DPS" it was "You Bards keeping saying you want to do equal DPS" which neither me nor Intell ever said.

Not to say some haven't said it, but as to how often people agreed with them is the point. Most of us aren't in that boat. If you see that we have said it, then please point it out to me, and this will need to be verbatim. Otherwise, you put those words in our mouths, not ourselves.

So my apologies to you, Musa. Disagree as we will, I flubbed bad on that.

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Originally Posted by Lillia

Anyways... My head hurts and I'm done with this thread, if you want more DPS than you have atm then wait for WM fixes, don't whine about it....

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This is why I should learn to stop trying, lol.

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Originally Posted by Kayote

If thats true then we need a melee buff songs, maybe some avoidance, +crit, +accuracy... you know, buffs. Actual buffs. Because some crappy 10% magic damage debuff (no its actually -resistance)that only helps with casters, and resource regens that youll never need with experienced players, sounds like a whole lot of bulldookie for a class thats not only does less damage while buffing the group, it also takes a another nerf by design.

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I was going to point out the same thing lol. If support abilities are truly the reason to keep DPS low (as removing the mobility is clearly already on the table), then they can't go half-assed on it. Why make a BRD player feel gimped because he's in a group with only melee jobs (or maybe only 1 caster in a healing intensive 8-man). Why put them into a position where they must permanently do less damage for their assigned role/slot (DPS), but makes their support situational with very limited uptime, and in the case of TP/MP regen, reduce their damage output even more? There is very little doubt to the necessity for progression raiding when Alexander Savage is released... but then what? Why bother with a job with unnecessary situational support and gimped DPS taking up a slot that some other job with minor party buffs could overwhelmingly better fill the role (e.g. DRG or NIN)?

If they (the devs and players) want to focus on the support aspect so much, then make more (or better) support abilities to justify the job taking up a role that it's not even performing up to par for. Why make a job that is only intended to be useful for progression raids, when they'll just be obsolete or pointless come farm status or in every other part of the game? LOL You just make the players who take up these jobs (BRD and MCH) feel like they made a bad choice or that they're being a burden upon the party for the grand majority of content in the game.