Let's have a round of applause for bringing grind parties front and center in FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Sypherblade

Am i way outta line here?

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Nope, you've just gotta drink less coffee. :p

I agree with you on besieged though, and campaign as well to a degree. People got hyped up for those scenarios, especially when they were new to it.

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Originally Posted by Verecund

Sadly, World of Warcraft and other MMOs/games did this little bit about a thousand times better with a feature called 'PvP'. (and to a somewhat lesser but still-apparent extent with "dungeons" and "raids")

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They've already said that FFXIV is a PvE game, and that all "PvP" content will come in the form of competitive PvE based events. You can't compare a predominantly PvE game to a game that readily hurls the PvP mechanic at people and expect to come back with decent parallels. Additionally, as someone who played WoW for a time and had planned to get into its competitive scene -- PvP is so ridiculously different from PvE, there are tons of different builds on either side and seldom do they completely overlap.

Raids are a different thing, and largely fall under the cover of "End game" even though some of them were lower level, typically because the higher level ones are the ones where a certain amount of skill is required, and in my experience with WoW raids -- people weren't very pleased to have to explain to you what you should be doing. Which takes me back to my earlier explanation of why end game content isn't a very good place to teach people how to play the game.

PvP sucks anyway.

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Originally Posted by Pyrix

PvP sucks anyway.

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Nope.

12345

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Nope.

12345

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PvP is great in games that are designed around it -- NPCs and Players have to work similarly for it to work on PvE environments, though. FFXI and FFXIV are primarily PvE games, which makes it a lot higher to develop solid PvP mechanics.

In my opinion, there's no way to program good 1v1 PvP in any MMO, though.

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Sounds like MMO is the wrong genre for you....

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Sounds like your idea of an MMO is not the genre for me.

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Taken completely out of context, but consolidates most of the 7-8 pages prior. Not at all aimed at the authors, but I think they'd agree that harping about an ideal MMO is all that really came out of the past 8 pages. Which, in my mind, is completely relative. But that's what we're here for, right? Anyway these struck out at me.

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Party grinding isn't about killing the same mob over and over again in the same place, its about learning the class you're playing, and learning strategies to do with others.

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Exactly. And let's be clear, that isn't just a universal attribute for MMOs-- the degree of teamwork vary from title to title. Square carries the flagship for the most demanding player collaboration and innovation amongst their MMO brethren. That is the SquareEnix MMO signature. A high degree of player-to-player reliance, teamwork and strategy. Slow, calculated battles. And no twitch reflexes that so many westerners identify as the cornerstone of modern gaming. Square's right, there's nothing modern about that. What you get is players limited in their capacity by hardware, internet connection, server lag and just dumb luck. That's not to say you don't need to think fast and react accordingly, but only if your team doesn't perform perfectly together. The staple of a SquareEnix MMO: a unit working together perfectly in unison, covering one another when one begins to lag behind and lightening the load when stress falls too hard on another. Its very zen. You know it is a Japanese game.

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Man, I really wish people would stop saying that grind parties promote skillful play. There was nothing demanding about FFXI's grind parties. All you needed was the right items, right job, and following a guide someone posted on Campistarus. All of the mobs picked for grinding were the least dangerous mobs, in the least dangerous camps. TP skills were spammed at will, (in its prime, they weren't) few people used utility/enfeeble spells, and people stocked up on bard, red mages, and other buffing classes so that they wouldn't have to deal with MP management and whatever.

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Completely circumstantial to when you played. Also...

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Not many things in XI involved skill in general. Almost ever fight was tank and spank, kite, or melee burn. All came down to paying attention. Like you said soloing was one of the things that required something extra. That and properly playing an endgame whitemage.

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Pretending this is the FFXI boards... lol. But all right. It took more innovation for a player to solo. But beforehand, who figured out what those right items and jobs were for grinding? Who contributed Campistarus? Who experimented for months with food effects, gear combination, and mob selection before writing a guide? Who cataloged the crafting recipes, turned hate management into a science, and started the actual endgame battle strategies that were so simple? SquareEnix did that for you?

Oh yes, the players from 2002-2003 made it easy for everyone. Maybe they shouldn't have written those guides, or recommend anyone where to level and what to wear? Is that really the intelligent take-away here? It took no skill because it all was catch-up to the guys that leveled before you? There were plenty of times when you could level off the norm, don't pretend Square didn't offer it to you. People simply didn't want to spend their time doing so when they knew they could be more efficient with their time by just trying again tomorrow for another good party. The art was in the planning, experimentation, preparation, practice, leadership and social skills with other players. And that takes more skill than strafing, bunny-hopping, and all those other skillz online gods possess.

It's easy to forget that 9 years is a long, long time in Gaming years. In in its conception it took every ounce of skill, collaboration and creativity available in the MMO gamer sphere to advance through XI. Of course, looking back nine years later, it doesn't seem like a lot of it was ever needed. But that just goes to show how MMOs do age in time. But let's not cut it short in the one area it really shined upon: making everything as absolutely as difficult as possible.

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Originally Posted by ViolentDjango

... All MMOs have a learning curve ... steamrolling through to Rank 50 won't teach you that. That's why grinding is a good thing, just like in FFXI, FFXIV is shaping into a game where timing and watching for cues are a vital element of effective play and you can't reasonably expect someone to learn all of that if they can hop to max level in a week.

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My thought has always been job and battle mechanics needed to be priority 1. Until then we're all assuming there will actually be tactical, long battles. I agree a form of grinding mixed with story elements (like a Besieged) would be a wonderful fit. But the battle plans has to be flushed out before we can assume how dynamic large battles can be. Although we can't really assume anything until we see more of the new battle scheme. Anyways, the biggest drive to out-perform the competition (other players) is the desire for recognition as being a great tank, healer, DDer, or party leader, so on. Without that basic feral drive, everything seems pointless in this open sandbox. (So Jobs, hurry up!)

Like they just said above, it is a PvE game. As I attempted to state before, there's a much deeper connection Square wants players to share with one another. It's certainly not "I keel you!"

edit: Whoa what a wall...

Commonly forgot fact of MMO..

People LIKE party grinding.

They don't want a game to revolve around it and they certainly don't want to HAVE to do it. But in the end if you wanna hang out with some friend or meet some new people the Number One Very Best Way to do it is grind on some Mobs. You can complain about it all you want, but it has, should and always will be a major part of MMOs because there is nothing more annoying than waiting for someone else to pick up a quest so you can get some XP.

Yes agreed, I do enjoying grinding as another component of game play. Why does everything people post here, have a troll-type personality to it. Just try once to enjoy one thing about the game.

Why is it the only thing that makes people happy is their own self-pity and misery?

Just try once to find something you do like, I promise for some that will be harder than it will be to level to 50 solo.

In the meantime I will grind and enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by RedHare

edit: Whoa what a wall...

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That is quite the wall, but I liked what you said about "skill." Too many people think skill = twitch and ignore strategy, experimentation, data collection, teamwork, and just good old knowledge and research. All of those are also skills, and they all separate good players from worse ones just as much as reflexes do in an FPS.

Also right about the time period in which people are referring to FFXI. Those saying it was skillful are talking about how it was in like 2004, where most of the information was spread by word of mouth and you still had to use party-based mechanics like careful hate control, setting up Sneak Attack/Trick Attack, and performing skillchains and magic bursts. The best guides English players had were reading mysterytour (bless that guy for providing something) where they had to decipher directly translated stuff like "it checks it ??? and is put into hand." The people talking about how the only skill in the game was knowing what equipment to wear are talking about how the game was much later, like in 2008, when everyone spammed TP attacks with pre-made macros that swapped out everything you wore for you.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

No one is arguing against options, you are simply trying to get them to kill the community by removing the benefit of grouping. Give solo players other options, hell give other options to groups again but party grinding with XP chains must be #1, because nothing else in any other MMO that has ever been developed has compared to it.

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Was I advocating the removal of benefits to grouping? How so?

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

I usually agree with you Neptune but I'm actually in favor of grind parties being added. "It takes all kinds" as they say. I like having a variety of options for leveling up.

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I'm cool with them being more possible as well, since a lot of people have fun with it. It just looks bad for this game to be copying such old school games in 2011 without offering anything new.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

You need to try looking at this from a different perspective. You are seeing it as "this is what WoW and other semi-popular MMOs have done and so it's what FFXIV needs to do to compete with those games," but that is probably a flawed assumption.

Consider that this game already launched in such a poor state every casual gamer has pretty much given up on it. Not many of them will be likely to return ever. People gave it one chance, they didn't like it, and they left for good. Back to WoW or off to RIFT or whatever. FFXIV is so far behind these games in terms of content the developers would need to work twice as fast just to catch up. But would simply "catching up" cause any of those people left with a bad taste in their mouths to return? No, because they're already just as content playing something else. At this point in time, FFXIV cannot possibly hope to beat WoW at its own game. Even if they add solo quest grinding instead of improving party camp grinding, why should WoW-types return for something their game had years ago?

On the other hand, look at players past and present of FFXI. The game is over nine years old and still supports the PS2. The updates have slowed to a crawl and no truly new areas or expansive content additions have been made in years. Many players were upset by the changes made with the add-ons, the level cap increase, and the slow updates in Altana expansion content. The number of world server systems has been reduced by half, and the game is in its twilight. Those people have nowhere to turn, because all other modern MMOs have tried to copy WoW (RIFT is practically a carbon copy in a large number of areas) to try and capture some of its success. There is a large number of people who are in the market for a serious grind game with a monthly subscription fee, hardcore accomplishments most players wouldn't dream of doing more than once, party grinding, and, well, the Final Fantasy brand and icons. There are also some minor things that would help out here, like the fact that FFXI players would be more likely to even hear news of XIV being better in the first place.

What's more likely, that they can grab a few hundred thousand subscriptions from the modern MMO market flooded with similar games, or from a market where the most recent game catering toward it was made nine years ago? I think it's the latter.

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This is a good post. First, the assumption is only as flawed as that method is for attracting attention from gamers willing to purchase the game and support it. In that case its only flaw is that it doesn't innovate.

When you say a large number of people support FFXI, let's take a look at that concept. A lot of those people can't run this game but they could maybe get on the PS3 version. If they all played FFXIV it might be enough to perpetuate this game. I've always seen it as a problem for FFXIV to develop into a niche title like FFXI. You say large, but we are talking about less than 100K people. I believe FFXIV can have broader appeal.. part of that is appealing to FFXI players, the rest to the mass market. They still have a chance but I really believe counting on FFXI players will be throwing that chance away. It sounds like a big risk. Those FFXI players will probably never quit FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

I enjoy the quests too but 30,000 SP? That's about 1/3 of the SP required to hit 49 or 50. By that logic you should be able to hit those levels by doing a three quests in a short portion of your day.

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I should have known someone would start quoting me on this out of context. 30k SP is about what I've been hearing you get out of 1 hour of grinding in a party. So yeah, it should be about equal. The reward for time is what should be equal. It isn't about a certain number.

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Originally Posted by Akashi

I left FFXI for a reason.. I don't want to go back to it! FFXIV can be unique without having to resort to FFXI's tired methods, the foremost of which is the party grind. The inability to do anything efficiently by oneself (especially leveling up) is a big turn off for a lot of people, including myself.

I'm all for group content, but not when it is the only viable way to progress your character.

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I agree.

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Originally Posted by Chain

This game is hanging onto too much of the past.

Loading screens between zones.. still?


Convoluted mechanics like the gate to the boat docks and having to click a menu to stand up after using /sit. (Small I know, but stuff like this makes the game feel like its limping on old technology)

Game still feels clunky and awkward (slightly less since the removal of the stamina bar) why on earth does this game feel so sluggish? Makes XI feel like hack and slash.

These things scare me more than the amount of dungeons they slap into the game or if they add a search feature.

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I'm glad someone pointed this out.. let's not let the dev team forget about small issues like this before they attempt to relaunch the game.

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Originally Posted by Galoot

I like grinding parties... It promotes skillful play and also gets people adjusted to new skills and responsibilities in PTs.

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I think this is just a myth people think up to justify the mindless grind and time commitment. I'll explain why below.

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Originally Posted by Chain

It's like watching a sports team lose 10 games in a row but still go out fighting each day only to get stomped on.

In turn I offer them my condolences and a friendly hug. I hope the next mmo they are talking about is approached from a different angle, looking at modern game engines and scrapping the love affair with console based UIs.

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It is sad.. I wonder what can be done about it.

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Originally Posted by Forerunner

So we can have r50 Tanks who can't tank, and r50 healers who can't heal? Good job.

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Yeah, oh wait, why can't people beat the Ogre? Because they learned all those great skills partying to 50? Myths dude. You only learn how to tank and heal by educating yourself or having a good leader.

In FFXI there are plenty of people who accuse other capped players of being bad players, and that's in a game where it's impossible to solo. So there's your evidence that you don't know what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

From experience it's more than the leveling curve that produces bad tanks, dps, and heals. Really, becoming actually good at doing a specific role has usually taken research outside of the game and practice.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Do you ever stop QQing? How have you not died from dehydration yet? It's simply amazing.

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Crying is something you do when you can't change something.. the fact that you feel this way about the game makes me feel bad for you. Why do you accept this game as it is? That really calls into question your self-worth! Come on man, at least stand up for yourself; take a little pride in what you do, and try to do your part to make this a better game while we have the opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Raim

So basically, everyone is under the impression that WoW invented dungeons, raids, and questing, and that any game that includes these is a WoW clone. How tragic.

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Exactly.. and people are still under the impression that FFXI invented anything, when in fact it desperately stole from other games to form its identity, leaving behind the rich material of its forebears.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

This is what Neptune, Tonymontana, Gifforce, and several others want the game to be. A similar WoW clone.

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I don't want that, any neither does giftforce of all people. You are just scared of our suggestions. All I did was say quests should award higher rewards and that equates to a WoW clone? Are you a little quick at the trigger there mate? haha

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

Progression through the game (leveling) by way of a large number of solo quests based on a few archetypes is exactly what WoW brought to the MMO world, and that is what the OP is suggesting FFXIV do now.

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Negative.. although I wouldn't have a problem with that. I wouldn't make that suggestion because I don't think it's creative enough.

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Originally Posted by Pyrix

..a shitty game idea in a forum post in his signature.

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The irony here.. in effect you just criticized yourself more than I ever could.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Man, I really wish people would stop saying that grind parties promote skillful play. There was nothing demanding about FFXI's grind parties. All you needed was the right items, right job, and following a guide someone posted on Campistarus. All of the mobs picked for grinding were the least dangerous mobs, in the least dangerous camps. TP skills were spammed at will, few people used utility/enfeeble spells, and people stocked up on bard, red mages, and other buffing classes so that they wouldn't have to deal with MP management and whatever.

People had that s*** down to a science. Ironically, the only time leveling in FFXI demanded skill was when you were playing one of the solo classes.

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Exactly man. It's just a myth invented by people to justify the things they regret doing deep down.

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Originally Posted by Ichi

Stop misrepresenting your opinions.

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Stop misrepresenting my opinions? How? Why don't you stop misrepresenting English? At least give me a decent reply and I will reply to it.

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Originally Posted by options

What the hell is wrong with quests? I for one play jrpgs for their stories (even the bad ones). Whats wrong with starting off in a zone, starting with a story on why i'm there and giving me a fun ff story doing things within the zone leading up to a big bad arse boss or dungeon at the end of the zone, then leading me into the next area. Throw in the grind in the middle of it. Hell, throw in grp grinds. But give me a f'ing story. The ff sp games do this, why the hell can't it be here?

Thats right..... ffxi didn't do it.

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Thank you, thank you so much. I'm with you. What's wrong with story progression? That's what you're saying. That's what every other FF has, and what FFXI would have had if Tanaka hadn't been one to simply copy Everquest instead of making an original game based on Final Fantasy gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

You have got to be kidding me. FFXI has multiple massive main story quests with cutscenes.

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He's talking about progressing through story.. Imagine an FF game where you go through new areas and beat bosses.. but are awarded no exp.. and instead, to gain exp for your character, you have to go to someplace else and grind. You would be imagining FFXI, not FF1-10.

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Originally Posted by mysterytaru

Sounds like MMO is the wrong genre for you....also: XI *did* do it.

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XI didn't have character progression through story, as stated above.

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Originally Posted by options

Sounds like your idea of an MMO is not the genre for me.

FFXI had cutscenes and they were done wonderfully. But you didn't progress through the zones doing those quests. There were no stories to the zones, you just moved there and camped the 1 spot till you moved to the next zone.

What i am saying is give us a story on why we are there. Right now we get a cutscene and for no other purpose then to lvl our char so we can get another cutscene. There's no meaning behind it at all. Why do we need to run to lvl 50 when their could be a journey reaching every lvl.

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Exactly man. Even WoW gave you a sense of progressing through different zones and there was a trivial story to every little thing. It was nice. FF should be doing it on a grander scale.

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

Party grinding isn't about killing the same mob over and over again in the same place, its about learning the class you're playing, and learning strategies to do with others. If fostering better relationships with other players becomes boring to people then why even play an mmo?

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It only takes a few hours to learn your class.. not months. It's just ridiculous that you think you learn anything important over that huge stretch of time. The truth is you could be building relationships just as well without the grind as with it.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Bringing up FFXI again, but sorry, nothing in FFXI's party grind taught me how to be a good player.


There was never any real challenge thrown at people while leveling in FFXI. Grinds of any kind are always, always reduced to the easiest and fastest ways to do something. It's the complete opposite of challenge, sprinkled with a lot of tedium.

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Exactly. You learned it all at endgame. Just like everyone else. Even if they imagine myths to justify something Tanaka pushed on them from Everquest.

This is still a FF game, name a FF game you didn't have to grind mobs outside of towns, or right outside dungeons, or in the first corridor of a dungeon, just so you could finally get through the dungeon. FFXIII cause that game was streamlined and made for the masses who didn't really like what FF games had to offer, they corrected that though with FFXIII-2.

As a rdm I learned everything I needed to know about how to work my job by level 50, there wasn't much more to learn, and it wasn't learned in end game. There are basic strategies you learn while leveling with people, that you expand upon during endgame. Come to endgame having not partied with people and watch yourself epic fail, because you have no sense of listening to people, you don't know vernacular, and you don't even know our basic strategies to expand upon. There are few strategies you don't learn while partying but guess what, you still have to be able to communicate with other players in a manner they will understand to be able to get this, if you don't get what we're talking about you can't do it, or it takes longer to convey it, and that i'm not ok with because I have no patience for ignorance when it comes to things that are time based.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

This is a good post. First, the assumption is only as flawed as that method is for attracting attention from gamers willing to purchase the game and support it. In that case its only flaw is that it doesn't innovate.

When you say a large number of people support FFXI, let's take a look at that concept. A lot of those people can't run this game but they could maybe get on the PS3 version. If they all played FFXIV it might be enough to perpetuate this game. I've always seen it as a problem for FFXIV to develop into a niche title like FFXI. You say large, but we are talking about less than 100K people. I believe FFXIV can have broader appeal.. part of that is appealing to FFXI players, the rest to the mass market. They still have a chance but I really believe counting on FFXI players will be throwing that chance away. It sounds like a big risk. Those FFXI players will probably never quit FFXI.

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I meant the some 500k that played it during most of its life, not the 200k or whatever that remain. Although I guess at that point we're all just speculating on details no one can predict.

I would definitely love to see FFXIV be a better game, one that can capture both the casual modern MMO player and the hardcore party lovers, and of course the serious endgamers that are in all MMOs. Even more than that, I'd love to see it expand into areas that no one, not EQ and FFXI nor WoW and its series of "clones" have. To get people who don't like either of those styles, and maybe just like the FF series or RPGs in general to have an MMO they love.

Unfortunately, as I think I pointed at a little, I think the ship for that has sailed. The original team had such a vision - replacing the generic MMO auction house with a newer personal system, having progression based neither on party grinding nor on repetitive quests but some new system, and throwing away the typical class systems of other games for something more freeform and unique to your character. Those were all bold ideas that did not see the light of day because the game was released too quickly and they were crap in the state people got them in. It's obvious the current team has no intention to try and fix those systems up now and are instead replacing them. And I agree with that decision because it's impossible to put in the work needed to do that while everyone has abandoned the game and those that remain want every feature copied from FFXI or WoW anyway.

If they could make it the best, most unique game around that would be by far the best solution, but if the choice is to make it FFXI-2 or a "WoW clone" I think they have a better chance going with the former. Basically, I agree with your sentiments, but I think you are being too idealistic at this stage of the game.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

I should have known someone would start quoting me on this out of context. 30k SP is about what I've been hearing you get out of 1 hour of grinding in a party. So yeah, it should be about equal. The reward for time is what should be equal. It isn't about a certain number.

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It absolutely cannot be equal for party grinding (or progression in any way) to be viable. If they are equal in terms of time investment to progress ratio no one will make parties because they are too much work - even the people who enjoy them more. There is a lot of time and effort that goes into building a party, picking an empty camp, and getting there, and that has to be accounted for. Beyond just the extra work that takes, you have to account for the fact that multiple people are committing to giving up multiple hours of their day in succession and that too must be compensated.

It's the same reason they don't allow me to go through and fight a raid boss by myself. Gear is progression at endgame, and you can't give a single person the same rewards as a large group of people for the same amount of time taken. You can, however, have alternate means to get the same or equivalent rewards that take more time and can be completeled on one's own.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

He's talking about progressing through story.. Imagine an FF game where you go through new areas and beat bosses.. but are awarded no exp.. and instead, to gain exp for your character, you have to go to someplace else and grind. You would be imagining FFXI, not FF1-10.

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Then I think he worded it poorly, because I wasn't the only one who thought he meant that FFXI had no story compared to previous games, when in fact it had the most.

I definitely agree that story should be more involved in progression, and in a way that allows them to do more than just the SP rewards that main story quests give now. If I had to describe it using previous examples, I'd say the storyline and dungeons from FFXI's Chains of Promathia expansion with actual good SP rewards along the way (instead of avoiding mobs whenever possible) would be pretty ideal. You could also think of it as like the dungeons we have now, or that are in other MMOs, but with actual cutscenes to describe the story, and put them in the main story instead of just for loot. Say much later on we track down an ascian, and follow it into a dungeon where we see it run within, then we have to fight through the dungeon, maybe meet an NPC along the way where you can do a sidequest right there inside it, and at the end have to confront the ascian in another cutscene leading to a boss showdown, then get to witness another main story scene where you get information from it before it escapes again. That would be pretty damned great and I totally support it.

However, I do think that it's somewhat infeasible for any development team to make this the sole means of progression in an MMO. As awesome as that would be, you can't take the 40 hours of gameplay intertwined with story in a single-player FF game and apply it over the hundreds of days people log in an MMO. This is why EQ/FFXI has grind parties and WoW and later games have terribly uninspired grind quests, and also why FFXIV had levequests to start.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

It only takes a few hours to learn your class.. not months. It's just ridiculous that you think you learn anything important over that huge stretch of time. The truth is you could be building relationships just as well without the grind as with it.

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While I'd rather not join the debate on "learning" for either side, I will say that one of the biggest draws of RPGs for me and many players is visible progression. I don't like games like Guild Wars where they try to remove character progression from the game entirely; if someone wants that they can go play some other genre.

Because of that, I think that partying for progression helps a lot. Not only is it a bit more entertaining with company, but when I solo in any MMO I don't end up using many of my abilities. Again, not going to say whether or not I think this impacts endgame ability, I just like to see my new abilities get some use in the regular game before I get to endgame. Before I tried really partying in FFXIV after this latest patch, I only used around four or five of the 20 abilities I set regularly. Some that I had learned got zero use whatsover, and it makes it boring when you learn something in a game at level 30 that isn't used until endgame at, say, 50. Whether you think it helps you learn your role or not, it does help you actually have fun with all your new toys.


I think I should probably stop replying after this. Not to be one of those "I'm leaving and now nothing you say will get to me!" jerks, but the length of my posts is getting absurd and I can't expect anyone to want to read it. I wish I could "sage" with it.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Crying is something you do when you can't change something.. the fact that you feel this way about the game makes me feel bad for you. Why do you accept this game as it is? That really calls into question your self-worth! Come on man, at least stand up for yourself; take a little pride in what you do, and try to do your part to make this a better game while we have the opportunity.

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? I try to improve this game in ways other than making multiple threads about "issues" that are being addressed or aren't issues at all. The first sentence is strange because you sure do cry a lot.

I for one haven't been invited to go and kill monsters by any other people since September. Lame.

I want to be sought out for my sick archer damage. Sought out to go and kill things, lots of things, so I can get stronger.

Things I can't kill by myself, because they are too strong.

I think as long we keep the "Kill things with other people because you can't kill it yourself" dynamic alive the game will be just fine.

ps. One of the tags for this thread is "uss butthurt"

Hilarious, and RIGHT ON THE MONEY.

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Originally Posted by Doctor_Jekyll

I for one haven't been invited to go and kill monsters by any other people since September. Lame.

I want to be sought out for my sick archer damage. Sought out to go and kill things, lots of things, so I can get stronger.

Things I can't kill by myself, because they are too strong.

I think as long we keep the "Kill things with other people because you can't kill it yourself" dynamic alive the game will be just fine.

ps. One of the tags for this thread is "uss butthurt"

Hilarious, and RIGHT ON THE MONEY.

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Now sailing: uss butthurt.

The tag system, abused.

So the gist of the OP is:

"Make the game yet another boring, monotonous quest grind for progression."

Am I getting warm? You can make quests "fun" but they're just as monotonous since you do them over and over and over again to cap your level, kind of like what you do with party grinding.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

So the gist of the OP is:

"Make the game yet another boring, monotonous quest grind for progression."

Am I getting warm? You can make quests "fun" but they're just as monotonous since you do them over and over and over again to cap your level, kind of like what you do with party grinding.

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Meh... It's Neptune being Neptune... again.

His entire logic is "I have ideas that I know for a fact would be the best for the game. And I know they'd be best for the game, because they're my ideas." That's every one of his OPs in a nutshell.

Two of his favorite retorts to dissenting opinion are:

1. "You obviously are happy with the game the way it is and don't feel it needs to improve". This is a classic false dichotomy, a logical fallacy Neptune resorts to in practically every single post he makes.
2. "You just don't understand how much better his idea would be for the game". In other words, you can't possibly understand his point and simply *disagree* with it.. no no.. Surely its brilliance is simply beyond your understanding, because if you did understand" it, you would certainly agree with it.

The problem with Nep is he's completely in love with his own ideas and assumes that whatever he suggests is "right". And so, when you respond to him, you can only fall into two categories: 1) You agree with him, or 2) You're wrong.

This is why none of his threads can ever develop into a normal conversation and typically result in people basically ripping his posts apart, pointing out the flaws in his logic, calling him out on how he twists or distorts the facts and generally making him look like a complete fool. Eventually, he gives up on that thread and wanders off to start a new one to complain about something else and start the process all over again.

Perhaps if people just all ignored him and stop giving him the attention he obviously craves constantly... he'd get the picture and give it up.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

if you are getting 100-150 a pop you are doing it wrong.Been repeating myself over and over so dont bother asking me how.
Also leves rank 30 are broken.

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There are words there in parenthesis, perhaps you will read them next time.

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

This is still a FF game, name a FF game you didn't have to grind mobs outside of towns, or right outside dungeons, or in the first corridor of a dungeon, just so you could finally get through the dungeon. FFXIII cause that game was streamlined and made for the masses who didn't really like what FF games had to offer, they corrected that though with FFXIII-2.

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I didn't grind in 1, 8 or 10. And actually, FF13 made some pretty good money and got good reviews, despite being the most realistic hallway simulator on PS3. But that doesn't make your point a good one; the reason people dislike this game is because of the grind. The vast majority of customers do not like grinding anymore, they want to progress through the story without having to stop to catch up in levels. Grinding is something devs put in games in the 90's to artificially inflate game time, because you couldn't give games content updates at all.

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As a rdm I learned everything I needed to know about how to work my job by level 50, there wasn't much more to learn, and it wasn't learned in end game. There are basic strategies you learn while leveling with people, that you expand upon during endgame. Come to endgame having not partied with people and watch yourself epic fail, because you have no sense of listening to people, you don't know vernacular, and you don't even know our basic strategies to expand upon. There are few strategies you don't learn while partying but guess what, you still have to be able to communicate with other players in a manner they will understand to be able to get this, if you don't get what we're talking about you can't do it, or it takes longer to convey it, and that i'm not ok with because I have no patience for ignorance when it comes to things that are time based.

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You don't need to group grind your whole way to the level cap to learn how to be a team player or how to communicate. Making grouping optional, yet accessible is the only thing that people need to learn how to play together. Forcing people to group achieves nothing besides pissing them off.

I would be completely happy if they deleted leve's, and the stupid WoW quests ASAP.

Reintroducing Party grinding is the first thing they have done right since this game came out.

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Originally Posted by captainpicard

I would be completely happy if they deleted leve's, and the stupid WoW quests ASAP.

Reintroducing Party grinding is the first thing they have done right since this game came out.

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And it's players like these that make me doubt this game will ever be more than the butt of every joke.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

And it's players like these that make me doubt this game will ever be more than the butt of every joke.

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Yep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MAwFIXfBGs

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Yeah, oh wait, why can't people beat the Ogre? Because they learned all those great skills partying to 50? Myths dude. You only learn how to tank and heal by educating yourself or having a good leader.

In FFXI there are plenty of people who accuse other capped players of being bad players, and that's in a game where it's impossible to solo. So there's your evidence that you don't know what you're talking about.

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I solo'd BLM on Qiqirns, Wamoura and Puddings. Think about all the Beastmasters, PUPs, Dragoons who had to solo because of people thinking they weren't worth a damn. Impossible to solo, shows YOU don't know what you're talking about.

"You only learn to tank and heal by educating yourself"

And getting 30k sp for killing two mobs really does that for you. Think before you post.

I love grinding. Hated leves. Hated that people quit them just to do the same stupid leves again.

With grinding, people are actually learning their jobs and what they are meant to do. With leves, meh not so much. Mobs were too easy. It's great now. Glad they are increasing the sp a little on behests but hopefully on regular mobs too.

Did I mention I love grinding?

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

And it's players like these that make me doubt this game will ever be more than the butt of every joke.

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Pretty much! What do you expect when people have lived under the same fecal covered rock since 2003 though?

/sigh

a lot of you have the wrong idea of what quest are suppose to be about. Its not suppose to be about SP or Rewards.
Quest are put into games to give you a better understanding to the people and background of the world. they need Depth and meaning into doing them. Not run here and back for 30k sp. these are the type of quest the game needs, it brings much needed lore and depth into the world we lack so much of.

Something must be wrong with me and my idea's of what games should be like. I've always played games to enjoy the lore and story of the worlds. Not just to beat it as fast as i could. No game should be about getting max level and beating it as fast as you can.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

/sigh

a lot of you have the wrong idea of what quest are suppose to be about. Its not suppose to be about SP or Rewards.
Quest are put into games to give you a better understanding to the people and background of the world. they need Depth and meaning into doing them. Not run here and back for 30k sp. these are the type of quest the game needs, it brings much needed lore and depth into the world we lack so much of.

Something must be wrong with me and my idea's of what games should be like. I've always played games to enjoy the lore and story of the worlds. Not just to beat it as fast as i could. No game should be about getting max level and beating it as fast as you can.

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I agree! and for people who just mad rush to cap level THEN want content...im confused..... imagine buying any rpg console game, going home, "kill boars" in the forest till you hit cap.....THEN actually play the game....where's the fun in that?

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Originally Posted by Sypherblade

I agree! and for people who just mad rush to cap level THEN want content...im confused..... imagine buying any rpg console game, going home, "kill boars" in the forest till you hit cap.....THEN actually play the game....where's the fun in that?

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That may have been the case in XI, but at the moment, there's a mission every few levels, you dont need to rush to cap then do em, they are quite easily managable at the level you unlock with one or two buddies, LS mates, or even just maybe /sh'ing?

Don't need to be capped in this game to enjoy a story or two.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

And it's players like these that make me doubt this game will ever be more than the butt of every joke.

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jokes only funny to you.

Do you guys think it would be cool if really tough NM's gave lots of SP as a reward?

I like to hunt for NM's. It is more fun to fight a unique battle instead of fighting the same battle over and over again. It would be a nice alternative for gaining SP and cool items. This way even if the item that I am after does not drop I would still get a substantial amount of SP.

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Originally Posted by RahJah

Do you guys think it would be cool if really tough NM's gave lots of SP as a reward?

I like to hunt for NM's. It is more fun to fight a unique battle instead of fighting the same battle over and over again. It would be a nice alternative for gaining SP and cool items. This way even if the item that I am after does not drop I would still get a substantial amount of SP.

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No. will cause more problems than Solutions

Such as:
1- Will be packed 24/7 and bring back the FFXI Kings camps which i'm fairly sure no one wants with less rewards.

2. will be a lot more complaints by the people who suck at claiming and will only benefit those who can.

3. the idea itself will introduce the claiming bots that everyone used in XI which will cause a whole new set of complaints and problems.

4. the same people will get claim usually by using reason 3.

5. The idea of really tough NMs with worthy rewards would mean you need to be rank 50 thus making SP pointless to get.


Edit: not to sound rude or anything. But the problem with most of the idea's people give, is they only look at the benefits of it and not the problems. or simple don't care if the problem doesn't effect them personally. when you think of an idea. you need to think about how it will effect the community as a whole and not just a select few.

Some good posts piling up in here.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

Unfortunately, as I think I pointed at a little, I think the ship for that has sailed. The original team had such a vision - replacing the generic MMO auction house with a newer personal system, having progression based neither on party grinding nor on repetitive quests but some new system, and throwing away the typical class systems of other games for something more freeform and unique to your character. Those were all bold ideas that did not see the light of day because the game was released too quickly and they were crap in the state people got them in. It's obvious the current team has no intention to try and fix those systems up now and are instead replacing them. And I agree with that decision because it's impossible to put in the work needed to do that while everyone has abandoned the game and those that remain want every feature copied from FFXI or WoW anyway.

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I think this is the best summary of FFXIV I have read yet. Unfortunately for the future of the game, you're right.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

If they could make it the best, most unique game around that would be by far the best solution, but if the choice is to make it FFXI-2 or a "WoW clone" I think they have a better chance going with the former. Basically, I agree with your sentiments, but I think you are being too idealistic at this stage of the game.

I definitely agree that story should be more involved in progression, and in a way that allows them to do more than just the SP rewards that main story quests give now. If I had to describe it using previous examples, I'd say the storyline and dungeons from FFXI's Chains of Promathia expansion with actual good SP rewards along the way (instead of avoiding mobs whenever possible) would be pretty ideal. You could also think of it as like the dungeons we have now, or that are in other MMOs, but with actual cutscenes to describe the story, and put them in the main story instead of just for loot. Say much later on we track down an ascian, and follow it into a dungeon where we see it run within, then we have to fight through the dungeon, maybe meet an NPC along the way where you can do a sidequest right there inside it, and at the end have to confront the ascian in another cutscene leading to a boss showdown, then get to witness another main story scene where you get information from it before it escapes again. That would be pretty damned great and I totally support it.

However, I do think that it's somewhat infeasible for any development team to make this the sole means of progression in an MMO. As awesome as that would be, you can't take the 40 hours of gameplay intertwined with story in a single-player FF game and apply it over the hundreds of days people log in an MMO. This is why EQ/FFXI has grind parties and WoW and later games have terribly uninspired grind quests, and also why FFXIV had levequests to start.

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I'm glad we agree on what an awesome game would actually be. The same thoughts have crossed my mind as well about CoP. I believe the idea of the single player FF experience but with a party of other people was present in FFXI.. but Tanaka couldn't pull it together. For instance, the climb to defeat the Shadowlord, or the whole progression through CoP. How epic would it have been to gain your final 5 levels on the climb to Shadowlord? Or 25-75 just in the CoP expansion? Not sneak/invising past every enemy in the very unique areas, but fighting them to grow your character on your way to a boss and cutscene. They had the framework in place but they couldn't turn it on. I totally agree with your thoughts, but I think it's feasible for it to be the main way of progression. Grind parties would still be doable just like you can grind in any RPG. Where there's a will, there's a way.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

It absolutely cannot be equal for party grinding (or progression in any way) to be viable. If they are equal in terms of time investment to progress ratio no one will make parties because they are too much work - even the people who enjoy them more. There is a lot of time and effort that goes into building a party, picking an empty camp, and getting there, and that has to be accounted for. Beyond just the extra work that takes, you have to account for the fact that multiple people are committing to giving up multiple hours of their day in succession and that too must be compensated.

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You know part of the compensation for setting it up is the fun of grind parties. You have to factor that in. I think you're thinking of back when no one would party in FFXIV, around initial release. Because there was a penalty for partying. It's never truly been in balance. I think it would work fine if it was balanced out. Besides, you could only do the quests once so if you wanted to level another job you'd be back at square 1 with guildleves and grind parties, so it would be fine.

While I'd rather not join the debate on "learning" for either side, I will say that one of the biggest draws of RPGs for me and many players is visible progression. I don't like games like Guild Wars where they try to remove character progression from the game entirely; if someone wants that they can go play some other genre.

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Originally Posted by Doctor_Jekyll

"uss butthurt"

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lol, yeah i saw that. The thing is it really doesn't affect me since I will rarely join a grind party. It's funny, but people could only be posting that if they aren't paying close enough attention.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

So the gist of the OP is:

"Make the game yet another boring, monotonous quest grind for progression."

Am I getting warm? You can make quests "fun" but they're just as monotonous since you do them over and over and over again to cap your level, kind of like what you do with party grinding.

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Jennestia.. I feel like you don't even read. Or maybe you read but then your imagination takes you to a dead end. Maybe you quickly associated quests with WoW quests. No need to jump to conclusions like that!

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Meh... It's Neptune being Neptune... again.

His entire logic is "I have ideas that I know for a fact would be the best for the game. And I know they'd be best for the game, because they're my ideas." That's every one of his OPs in a nutshell.

Two of his favorite retorts to dissenting opinion are:

1. "You obviously are happy with the game the way it is and don't feel it needs to improve". This is a classic false dichotomy, a logical fallacy Neptune resorts to in practically every single post he makes.
2. "You just don't understand how much better his idea would be for the game". In other words, you can't possibly understand his point and simply *disagree* with it.. no no.. Surely its brilliance is simply beyond your understanding, because if you did understand" it, you would certainly agree with it.

The problem with Nep is he's completely in love with his own ideas and assumes that whatever he suggests is "right". And so, when you respond to him, you can only fall into two categories: 1) You agree with him, or 2) You're wrong.

This is why none of his threads can ever develop into a normal conversation and typically result in people basically ripping his posts apart, pointing out the flaws in his logic, calling him out on how he twists or distorts the facts and generally making him look like a complete fool. Eventually, he gives up on that thread and wanders off to start a new one to complain about something else and start the process all over again.

Perhaps if people just all ignored him and stop giving him the attention he obviously craves constantly... he'd get the picture and give it up.

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I'm flattered that you have gotten to know me so well. You're onto something. A thread like this wasn't necessarily posted for discussion, as are some of my threads. This one was more like a statement. In fact, before these boards opened I would probably have submitted it as an email under suggestions and feedback, as I did many times under Tanaka in FFXI. I don't want you to feel like you don't matter to me if you disagree with me, and sometimes I get a little pointed if people defend points of view that are harmful to other players. Anyway, I don't give up on threads because there's no need to perpetuate a thread in the first place. It gets its fair share of attention and either the dev team reads it or they don't, same as with an email to suggestions and feedback. In fact, 90% of the replies in one of my threads have nothing to do with the OP and are just filled with people's superficial reactions to the topic instead of an actual discussion about the pros and cons - something I would be happy to engage in.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I didn't grind in 1, 8 or 10. And actually, FF13 made some pretty good money and got good reviews, despite being the most realistic hallway simulator on PS3. But that doesn't make your point a good one; the reason people dislike this game is because of the grind. The vast majority of customers do not like grinding anymore, they want to progress through the story without having to stop to catch up in levels. Grinding is something devs put in games in the 90's to artificially inflate game time, because you couldn't give games content updates at all.



You don't need to group grind your whole way to the level cap to learn how to be a team player or how to communicate. Making grouping optional, yet accessible is the only thing that people need to learn how to play together. Forcing people to group achieves nothing besides pissing them off.

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Totally agree.

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Originally Posted by Forerunner

I solo'd BLM on Qiqirns, Wamoura and Puddings. Think about all the Beastmasters, PUPs, Dragoons who had to solo because of people thinking they weren't worth a damn. Impossible to solo, shows YOU don't know what you're talking about.

"You only learn to tank and heal by educating yourself"

And getting 30k sp for killing two mobs really does that for you. Think before you post.

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There's no way you played FFXI without partying for many hours. It is possible to solo to cap but it's about as possible as walking from New York to California. So you solo'd one job to cap - are you supporting my point or your point? It sounds like you're undermining your point unless you're claiming to be an unskilled player. About your second point, no getting an arbitrary amount of sp does not educate you. Research and learning educate you!

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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

Pretty much! What do you expect when people have lived under the same fecal covered rock since 2003 though?

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lol

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

/sigh

a lot of you have the wrong idea of what quest are suppose to be about. Its not suppose to be about SP or Rewards.
Quest are put into games to give you a better understanding to the people and background of the world. they need Depth and meaning into doing them. Not run here and back for 30k sp. these are the type of quest the game needs, it brings much needed lore and depth into the world we lack so much of.

Something must be wrong with me and my idea's of what games should be like. I've always played games to enjoy the lore and story of the worlds. Not just to beat it as fast as i could. No game should be about getting max level and beating it as fast as you can.

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I agree! Which is pretty much what these quests are in FFXIV. The reason I think they should award character growth is that the grind seems so unnecessary. Anything you do with your character should award growth.. in my book, especially story progression.

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Originally Posted by Sypherblade

I agree! and for people who just mad rush to cap level THEN want content...im confused..... imagine buying any rpg console game, going home, "kill boars" in the forest till you hit cap.....THEN actually play the game....where's the fun in that?

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Exactly man. Doesn't make any sense.

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Originally Posted by RahJah

Do you guys think it would be cool if really tough NM's gave lots of SP as a reward?

I like to hunt for NM's. It is more fun to fight a unique battle instead of fighting the same battle over and over again. It would be a nice alternative for gaining SP and cool items. This way even if the item that I am after does not drop I would still get a substantial amount of SP.

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Yeah I think that would be awesome. I enjoyed the hunts in FF12. Something like that would be great. It should award an amount of character growth in proportion to the challenge.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

No. will cause more problems than Solutions

Edit: not to sound rude or anything. But the problem with most of the idea's people give, is they only look at the benefits of it and not the problems. or simple don't care if the problem doesn't effect them personally. when you think of an idea. you need to think about how it will effect the community as a whole and not just a select few.

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This is a great point. It's good to think through things both for and against your idea. But no one's perfect, so it's wise to be open to further points for and against once the community gets involved. If any of you think I deviate from this call me out on it!

In a nutshell...

• Story (single-player) → Grindfest → Story (single-player) → Grindfest → ... → end-game content

This is what we have now.

• Story (single or multi-player) → Story (single or multi-player) → ... → end-game content
  alongside
  Grindfest → end-game content

A game that gives its players the freedom to do whatever they want at any time.


amirite? I think I agree with you. Say no to the grind!

Let's not. Grnding the same mob over and over is worse than leves. I'm ignoring battle classes until they implements the levelling ideas Yoshi posted about not too long ago.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

No. will cause more problems than Solutions

Such as:
1- Will be packed 24/7 and bring back the FFXI Kings camps which i'm fairly sure no one wants with less rewards.

2. will be a lot more complaints by the people who suck at claiming and will only benefit those who can.

3. the idea itself will introduce the claiming bots that everyone used in XI which will cause a whole new set of complaints and problems.

4. the same people will get claim usually by using reason 3.

5. The idea of really tough NMs with worthy rewards would mean you need to be rank 50 thus making SP pointless to get.


Edit: not to sound rude or anything. But the problem with most of the idea's people give, is they only look at the benefits of it and not the problems. or simple don't care if the problem doesn't effect them personally. when you think of an idea. you need to think about how it will effect the community as a whole and not just a select few.

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In response to your post Xianghua Shizuka. I think that competition is healthy and promotes a stronger community. The good NM's that offer high reward will always be camped at least moderatly, and should be. There would still be alternatives to acheive SP as there are now. Also, a battle does not have to be rnk 50 to be tough/challenging/fun.

As, for the bots .... I guess if there is an award waiting to be claimed somewhere in the game ppl are gonna create bots to attain it. Does that mean that there should not be awards worthy of persuing?

The tags on this thread almost make it worth existing.

I'm sorry There is Simply no Possible way to make the SP off a claimed NM better then the SP you can make grinding. without causing more problems then solutions. If the items and SP are truly worth it that's what everyone will do. every other way of leveling will not be used. Why grind or Run around doing quest for 2hrs to get 50k sp when you can kill a NM to get the same SP.
You would still be killing the same mob over and over if after SP. while you don't have to be level 50 for things to be tough. people will always do whats easiest. would you bring a group of 30s to a NM for drops or a group of 50s?
The only possible way to do this is make the drops worthless for high levels (which pretty much makes them useless to go after). or make the SP Lower then what you could get an hour grinding.

As for bots there are many other ways to put in challenging events that do not require attempting to claim NMs. I'm not sure if you played endgame in XI. But King camps were horrible setting there in one place for hours on end just for a little chance to claim a NM for a reward isn't worth the trouble.

I'm sorry but the best way to get EXP/SP or anything SHOULD be the hardest way to get it. and that is by grinding. does it suck? yes. but there simply is no other way that will not hurt the game more then it helps.

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Originally Posted by RahJah

In response to your post Xianghua Shizuka. I think that competition is healthy and promotes a stronger community. The good NM's that offer high reward will always be camped at least moderatly, and should be. There would still be alternatives to acheive SP as there are now. Also, a battle does not have to be rnk 50 to be tough/challenging/fun.

As, for the bots .... I guess if there is an award waiting to be claimed somewhere in the game ppl are gonna create bots to attain it. Does that mean that there should not be awards worthy of persuing?

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What you're suggesting is to basically make certain rare NMs "big buckets-o-SP".

Given that people these days seem single-mindedly obsessed with "getting as much sp as possible" - even if it's at the expense of other aspects of character progression (such as how they'd willingly neglect leveling their weapon skills in XI if it meant getting faster xp on their jobs) - I have a feeling it would *not* turn out well. It seems like no matter what kind of rewards a developer puts in their game to reward a player for their time and effort, people absolutely lose their minds when it comes to sp/xp gain.

I don't know if you played XI or not, but the competition over rare NMs led to a lot of serious imbalance between players who used bots to get claim every time, versus those who tried to claim them legitimately. For a time (prior to SE patching it out) if someone claimed the mob legitimately, their competition (being sore losers at having lost the claim) would try to MPK the player so they'd lose the claim, or try to steal it away from them somehow.

It didn't lead to 'friendly competition'. It led to a lot of cheating, hacking, harassment and hard feelings.

Eventually, SE had to change the nature of the world drops to no-sell/no-trade just to alleviate all the issues.

I think NMs should give an amount of sp proportionate to their level and, with perhaps a *small* boost for the fact that they're a rare creature and tougher than others of their type. There's also the chance for nice drops. That's enough reward. I don't think it would be wise turning them into buckets-o-sp for people to try "farming".