The current battle system mainly calculate everything from Your Rank vs Mob Rank

I agree, and testing at the floor and the max only gives you two points of data, which gives you very little information about a formula, 2 points is a line, the graph is most likely way more complex than a line.

I can tell you right now, without tests on monsters inbewteen no one would have ever understood FFXIs formula, that involved str vs vit, attack vs defense level vs level dmg of weapon, weapon rank, and sometimes coeffecients, and range all thrown in there. and that was just for regular attacks.

The reason different weapons do the same damage on NM's is because there is a modifier and a cap on Str vs Vit AND ATT vs DEF

An extreme example of this is if you fought a MOB with 999 defense and another with 9999 defense
if the max ATT/DEF difference is 500 (Arbitrary number just to demonstrate a point) then both MOBs will take the same damage from weapons with Attack 1 all the way to a weapon with attack 499

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ken-Unbalanced

Some interesting tests here have led to 2 theories...
The first of which we have all come to believe... Attributes do very little

The other more interesting theory is in many cases, a cap is exceeded, and therefore, any additional attribute points, and conversely, any additional damage is null

For instance, in FFXI, Str - Vit gave a value, that could not exceed a cap set by the weapon rank
And that number was then used to find the actual +bonus/-penalty that was added to your base damage

One of the problems in this thread is everyone is screaming "Hard data, Hard data" which is correct, hard data should be present, but every good scientist does some interpreting of the data which leads to a new hypothesis
Thats the Scientific method, and there is nothing wrong with sharing a hypothesis on a forum.
For instance, from the gathered data, I believe rank indirectly affects damage, which is why the devs didn't realize the formula was going to cause so many problems
Just like the HP and MP gained from attributes is capped by rank, so are the values for damage formulas capped by rank and (Delta)rank
So while Rank and (Delta)rank don't directly affect the damage, they do directly limit the values that go into the damage formula, therefore, it would have been much harder to see how these caps would factor in at higher levels.
Not impossible, mind you... Just a little more foresight was needed

I feel old saying this, but I can recall a time when attributes mattered too much
When conjurers with a lot less defense from gear as a gladiator would still take the same amount of damage if their VIT was comparable

The November patch changed this, and we noticed when we logged in that everyone's HP was lower and everyone was squishier
Grass raptors that we used to fight at R36 were owning us at R43. But some good did come from it... DEF became paramount in the fight against physical damage mitigation
So then Gladiators, Pugs and Marauders actually became physical tanks....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rydin

The reason different weapons do the same damage on NM's is because there is a modifier and a cap on Str vs Vit AND ATT vs DEF....

---

No lol. The reason different weapons do the same damage on NMs is because dLvl has capped how good you're allowed to be on said target. Fact.

Evidence: Gain one level. Keep the rest of your stats the same. You will see your cap go up, because your dlvl got better.

You're wrong. Your argument has been destroyed by facts about the game readily apparent.

dLvl dominates this game. Don't think so? You're simply wrong. It's not an opinion.

People still don't believe that dlvl is overwhelmingly the majority factor in all damage and accuracy calculations? It's pretty obvious after playing this game for even a week.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peregrine

No lol. The reason different weapons do the same damage on NMs is because dLvl has capped how good you're allowed to be on said target. Fact.

Evidence: Gain one level. Keep the rest of your stats the same. You will see your cap go up, because your dlvl got better.

You're wrong. Your argument has been destroyed by facts about the game readily apparent.

dLvl dominates this game. Don't think so? You're simply wrong. It's not an opinion.

---

I didn't disagree... I said dlvl possibly just affects the cap on the damage values... not the actual damage itself...
Both of these are plausible and neither is proven by the data

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rentahamster

People still don't believe that dlvl is overwhelmingly the majority factor in all damage and accuracy calculations? It's pretty obvious after playing this game for even a week.

---

I honestly can't even find the ANGLE and PITCH that someone who refuses the obvious is trying to get...what kind of ulterior motive they have for sticking their head so far in the sand. Usually people that far out there have ulterior reasons for being out there. They're neutral on botting because they bot. They want gathering materials to become more common because they're crafters, not gatherers.

But this...this has no angle. No scheme. It's just oblivious observation. Is that even a thing? It is now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rydin

I didn't disagree... I said dlvl possibly just affects the cap on the damage values... not the actual damage itself...
Both of these are plausible and neither is proven by the data

---

How on earth did you not see my backhand to this response coming? Think before you post.
When your accuracy, attack, and primary stats are so easy to saturate, dlvl is the ONLY thing that affects actual damage. So yes, functionally, practically, for all you care dlvl DOES influence the actual damage itelf. In fact, it's the only thing tha tdoes influence it assuming you're not mining for fish around here.

What's your accuracy, att, str, and dex?
I don't care. If they're not STUPID, then LEVEL is the only thing that makes you what you are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peregrine

No lol. The reason different weapons do the same damage on NMs is because dLvl has capped how good you're allowed to be on said target. Fact.

Evidence: Gain one level. Keep the rest of your stats the same. You will see your cap go up, because your dlvl got better.

You're wrong. Your argument has been destroyed by facts about the game readily apparent.

dLvl dominates this game. Don't think so? You're simply wrong. It's not an opinion.

---

dlvl is a part of the equation, but it is not the only factor, or i would not see my dmg change attacking a mob 20 levels higher than me. If dlevel was the determining factor every mob that much higher would yeild the same results.

another test+
pug 42
vs level 70 gobbue
weathered hora 10-12 heavy strike
boarskin cesti 20-25

that essentially shows my weapon being twice as effective, this means if we were all fighting something 28 levels higher than us, my weapon is making me twice as effective at dps.
Im not questioning that dlevel matters, im saying gear still matters, if you have a situation where it doesnt, it has nothing to do with dlevel.

edit so in response to what peregrine is saying, basically since everyone has the same gear, and capped stats, only your level matters, but you are all the same level so nothing matters. doesnt sound like a problem with gear/stats, the probelm is you all have the same gear and stats.

exactly what does the dlevel have to be for me to see no difference and do you really think that the NMs are that level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

dlvl is a part of the equation, but it is not the only factor, or i would not see my dmg change attacking a mob 20 levels higher than me. If dlevel was the determining factor every mob that much higher would yeild the same results.

another test+
pug 42
vs level 70 gobbue
weathered hora 10-12 heavy strike
boarskin cesti 20-25

that essentially shows my weapon being twice as effective, this means if we were all fighting something 28 levels higher than us, my weapon is making me twice as effective at dps.
Im not questioning that dlevel matters, im saying gear still matters, if you have a situation where it doesnt, it has nothing to do with dlevel.

edit so in response to what peregrine is saying, basically since everyone has the same gear, and capped stats, only your level matters, but you are all the same level so nothing matters. doesnt sound like a problem with gear/stats, the probelm is you all have the same gear and stats.

---

I dunno how gimp you want to be, but a jade crook+3 with 120 int and pie is not the same gear and stats as a jade crook and 80 int and pie.

What you just said is that 85 attack increases your damage by 10 points. Wow lol...in ffxi it took about 16 attack to do that.

Thanks for proving my point. Even if you ARE mining for fish and being completely stupid about your setup, it just doesnt' matter that much.

Lol you gain 85 attack points and your damage goes up by 10. If you didn't test a lame straw man setup, you'd see that anything over 80 attack is pretty much "good enough." If you gained a level, your damage would probably go up by 15.

You basically just argued that if you're an idiot, something other than level actually makes a difference.
So....what about all the people who aren't idiots? What about real players?

Oh. That's right. Level's pretty much the only difference no matter what they equip. We all know that.

proof? proof? proof? proof?

LOL, they keep asking for a proof which they can figure out by themselves if they play the game

especially now you have an ability to show mob ranks on their name

Sphene Doblyn at R56 and R58 has a lot of different

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evangela

proof? proof? proof? proof?

LOL, they keep asking for a proof which they can figure out by themselves if they play the game

---

Need I remind you that... YOU started the thread.

didn't you notice about how much you get stronger when you rank up? that's a proof

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evangela

didn't you notice about how much you get stronger when you rank up? that's a proof

---

It's proof that rank has a noticeable effect. Not proof that rank is the primary factor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peregrine

I dunno how gimp you want to be, but a jade crook+3 with 120 int and pie is not the same gear and stats as a jade crook and 80 int and pie.

What you just said is that 85 attack increases your damage by 10 points. Wow lol...in ffxi it took about 16 attack to do that.

Thanks for proving my point. Even if you ARE mining for fish and being completely stupid about your setup, it just doesnt' matter that much.

Lol you gain 85 attack points and your damage goes up by 10. If you didn't test a lame straw man setup, you'd see that anything over 80 attack is pretty much "good enough." If you gained a level, your damage would probably go up by 15.

---

incorrect in ffxi how much attack effected your damage had a lot to do with the mob at hand, and if you were at the extremes you saw much less results, ie
attacking a low level rabit, attack had no real value
attacking some super high level defense mob you needed a lot of attack before you started to see a difference. at level 75 with food, 1 boost was like 40 attack for me, and i can guarantee you it did very little in terms of upping my dmg versus tiamat or even demon NMs in xarcabard

and yeah doing twice your damage is never wack. if everyone is weak because of dlevel, doing gimp dmg, and i double my gimp dmg, i double my effectiveness gimp, or not gimp.
also when testing versus a mob around my level i also saw a huge jump in damage, from 50 to 100 per swing. this implies its not simply +10 its more like im getting a % better.
this means that yeah that level may get me 15 more damage, but 7 of that 15 is coming from my gear.

what does this mean? it means dlevel is lowering your effectiveness, but your gear still makes you noticeably more effective.
when your gear doesnt make you noticeably more effective, its probably a special trait or ability of the monster.

for example the monsters defense is too low, so my attack is irrelevant, or it is too high, so my attack is just a drop in the bucket.
to illustrate
if they were using a simple subtraction system

1000 defense -85 attack 915 defense left over. i barely dented it
1000 defense 5 attack 995 defense left over i still barely dented it

really low defense
5 defense 85 attack, i totally overcame his defense allowing for my maximum damage
5 defense 5 attack i totally overcame his defense allowing for my maximum damage.

now look at a skill which ignores defense.
wow i get full damage no matter wait i own NMS! wait sounds exactly like spirits within and bio. the skills that ignore defense win because they ignore defense. even when the dlevel is not an issue. even if they remove dlevel this will continue to be the case, even when you are level 65 the thaum will still own your damage with a skill that ignores defense on any high defense mob, even if your 10 levels higher than you were

the fact is the NM you are fighting is a special case, he has special stats which your stats arent effecting, blame the NM designer, the NM is cheesy bastard, dlevel may have its faults, but it doesnt explain this

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lerris

It's proof that rank has a noticeable effect. Not proof that rank is the primary factor.

---

Take two players, one at rank 45, the other at rank 50. Give them the same exact stats and gear. You'll see a big difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Take two players, one at rank 45, the other at rank 50. Give them the same exact stats and gear. You'll see a big difference.

---

At this pont, rent...do you really think that?
They won't see a damn thing lol...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Take two players, one at rank 45, the other at rank 50. Give them the same exact stats and gear. You'll see a big difference.

---

Exactly. And this is the only MMO you can actually make that test on and it being completely valid... Why? Because rank doesn't determine your stats. Take off all your armor, use the same weapon, lower your stats down to basic starter stats, and compare yourself to someone of the same race (because you wouldn't want that omg 1 stat difference to skewer your results) and check for yourself.

Go ahead and try what Rentahamster suggested and you'll see the difference.

If DLVL or DRNK wasn't as big a factor as we tell you it is then the following will happen:

No damage difference.

But we know thats not the case.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Take two players, one at rank 45, the other at rank 50. Give them the same exact stats and gear. You'll see a big difference.

---

dlevel effects fights, noticeably so, but is it the only factor? is it to large a factor? in games made without dlevel they simply scale stats to accomodate, in fact this game is in reality one of the more forgiving in terms of how survivable you are versus high level monsters not many games where you when fighting a monster that is 20 levels higher than you, that you stand a chance.
normally a game would just make level 1 weapon = 1 dmg and level 100 weapon =1000 damage.

the point of the above, is no one is mad that mobs 20 levels higher than them can kick thier ass, or that someone 5 levels higher than them take less damage and deal more, they are mad that their percieved stats arent as effective as they want them to be.
that doesnt have much to do with dlevel.


I have already found with data, that gear choice effects your damage. i have found that this effect extends to fighting things up 28 levels higher.
if you are noticing no gain in damage when fighting anything from 1-28 levels higher than you, you can be sure that is not caused by dlevel.

If you just want stats to be the only factor, they can do that, but they will just distribute dlevel into the stats of mobs and players so it has a similar effect, and in the end it will just mean you will need even higher numbers to see a difference, and in all likely hood the game will either be unplayable without the latest gear at all times (if they distribute the level differences into gear) or you will need really large number bonuses to see any effect from gear (if they distribute the stats directly to the player)

but at the end of the day, until you have real equations, it is impossible to see what is really going on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

dlevel effects fights, noticeably so, but is it the only factor? is it to large a factor?

---

THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR 10 FUCKING PAGES.

Lemme spell it out.

[SIZE="7"]Y[/SIZE]
[SIZE="7"]E[/SIZE]
[SIZE="7"]S[/SIZE]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

dlevel effects fights, noticeably so, but is it the only factor? is it to large a factor?

---

No one said it's the only factor. We've been saying it's a large factor. Too large. Waaaaay too large.

It's so overwhelmingly large that it marginalizes the hard work put into getting better gear and maximizing your stats. It decreases the value of items, which also impacts the economy.

Well at least VIT and MND have a noticeable effect early on. But after R30 or so, I'm guessing about 50 MND will give you as much MP as you will ever need and 60 VIT or so will give you as much HP as you need to survive between Cure/Sacrifice cooldowns.

so what do you think the difference in the game over all would be if they had no dlevel equations. What im getting at is, yall want change but ill tell you right now, you can distribute the dlevel formula to player stats or gear and monster stats and generate the exact same effects, so since its the effects you dont like, what exactly would you want to see happen in your perfect world of rpgs with levels and stats and gear.

for example right nowe my level 42 pug can hit a level 70 gobbue for 25 a hit, for a total of 50 a round. the gobbue hits me for 1400.
what would you expect a person wearing the right gear for that level to be able to do, and damage they can take from a mob that high
what effect would you expect a person in +3 gear to be like in a similar situation.

put down to a regular fight versus a mob 10 levels higher than you

what% of your hp should a mob do versus a normal player, an hq player.

since no one knows how stats work right now, lets speak in terms of output. that may actually be valuable to people programming things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

so what do you think the difference in the game over all would be if they had no dlevel equations. What im getting at is, yall want change but ill tell you right now, you can distribute the dlevel formula to player stats or gear and monster stats and generate the exact same effects, so since its the effects you dont like, what exactly would you want to see happen in your perfect world of rpgs with levels and stats and gear.

---

Nobody said they wanted to remove the dLevel equation...

...if you change it so dLevel doesn't have such a large effect and make it so stats actually matter...

...well then we don't have an eye-candy (an ugly ass eye candy) window for stats that have a minimal effect on the game if they aren't VIT or MND.

You can't not have DLVL in the equation. It needs to be there. What needs to be done is that whatever multiplier or coefficient that makes it so that DLVL trumps everything, needs to be lowered.

Most modern game uses Player LVL vs Mob LVL in their damage calculations.

oh no, don't get it confused... (delta)rank plays too much of a roll
I was saying thats because it is possible that your rank (or DRank) caps the delta(str-vit) and also the delta(Att-DEF) which would also explain why the attributes dont seem to work as much... especially in the higher levels...
And in that capacity it seems to indirectly affect the damage... I AGREE THAT dRank MATTERS WAY TOO MUCH
and I have never argued that it doesn't. I am just hypothesizing at it's actual place in the formula
If it is a direct damage modifier or just modifies the other stats that contribute to damage....
Which again WOULD EXPLAIN WHY ATTRIBUTES SEEM TO NOT MATTER as the Delta(Attribute) numbers are capped

Testing this on low rank monsters is an excelent way.

I am rank 50 thaumaturge. I equip a weathered scepter R1. I never put any stats into INT, so it is at base14 for me. I equip Will to power I and II, making my int 0. I equip scourge I and blizzard I:

Scourge I:
rank 1 star marmot = 2961
rank 2 star marmot = 2909
rank 3 star marmot = 2896, 2744
rank 1 Bumble beetle = 2198, 2247
rank 2 Bumble beetle = 2159, 2464, 2273, 2269
rank 3 Bumble beetle = 2016
rank 6 copper coblyn = 1095
rank 8 copper coblyn = 1024

blizzard I
rank 1 Bumble beetle = 1969
rank 1 star marmot = 2351, 3113
rank 3 star marmot = 2168

Enough of that.... have you at any time when you were rank 1 with a rank 1 weapon and minimal stats, done over 2000 damage to a monster above your rank with a single attack. No.

oh yea. Phantom dart:

R1 Bumble beetle = 831
R1 star marmot = 1318

I sure dont remember doing that much damage in my r1-10 days with my silly weathered scepter..

if your rank didnt determine at all how much damage you were going to do, i would still see less than 20 damage per hit.

If you are asking "But reika, if you equip your R43 scepter, doesnt your damage go up?"
why yes the damage does go up, but the point is, I am doing buttloads of damage to these creatures with 0 int, and a r1 weapon

^ people are gonna argue.

BUT WHERES THE PROOF AND THE MAFFS?!

You know, cause they would actually understand the math.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

^ people are gonna argue.

BUT WHERES THE PROOF AND THE MAFFS?!

You know, cause they would actually understand the math.

---

I can agree with your post and Reika's, not even needing to think of an argument because its simply a no-brainer. Nobody really wants to test anything for themselves whether it be fear of being wrong, or they just cant admit that they have tested and they were wrong.

If they really wanted the maffs, they'd go out and test for their damn selves, and come back with results whether or not it proves that they are right.

no one was questioning dlevels effect versus low level mobs, I was questioning two things
If dlevel negates gear/stats
and how much does dlevel effect things in the range that you would be expected to attack them basically from -5 to+2o levels
then, how effective are your stats in this range.

I dont think any one really cares how much they can own a rabbit, or how much dmg a level 99 mob does to them at level 50

but beyond the discussion of dlevels effect in those cases, since we have no formulas, it would probably be better to discuss what type of effect you expect being well geared to have for your level because that is quantifiable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

no one was questioning dlevels effect versus low level mobs, I was questioning two things
If dlevel negates gear/stats

---

Reika... just fucking demonstrated that... omg.

Quote:

---

I dont think any one really cares how much they can own a rabbit, or how much dmg a level 99 mob does to them at level 50

---

This just proves to me that you weren't even serious about this discussion at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

You can't not have DLVL in the equation. It needs to be there. What needs to be done is that whatever multiplier or coefficient that makes it so that DLVL trumps everything, needs to be lowered.

Most modern game uses Player LVL vs Mob LVL in their damage calculations.

---

I don't understand why DLVL has to be in the equation - you just state it needs to be there, but provide no justification.

We already have a boatload of stats to use in the calculations - why does DLVL remotely matter? Between Attributes and Gear Stats there is no need for DLVL in the equation. DLVL should unlock skills that have higher stats and such....

In my opinion, if a R50 Gladiator puts on the same gear as an R1 Gladiator, carries the same weapon, equips the same skill, and assigns his stat points the same (or leves them unassigned as the case may be) - they should do exactly the same damage, take the same damage, and evade the same.

Ranking up unlocks skills that do more damage, gives you attributes you can assign that increase damage, etc - rank should not be a direct part of the calculation - instead it is indirectly reflected by the ability to equip stats, gear, attribute points, etc...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naylia

In my opinion, if a R50 Gladiator puts on the same gear as an R1 Gladiator, carries the same weapon, equips the same skill, and assigns his stat points the same (or leves them unassigned as the case may be) - they should do exactly the same damage, take the same damage, and evade the same.

---

If you think theres even an ounce of balance in that...

"WHAT AM I FIGHTING FORRRRRR!!" screaming to the heavens.
-Maverick Hunter, Zero

At least dLevel means you don't have to respec your stats when switching from a DoW to a DoM, 'cept for INT.

Trololo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

At least dLevel means you don't have to respec your stats when switching from a DoW to a DoM, 'cept for INT.

Trololo.

---

Well played sir. Well played.

/golfclap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naylia

I don't understand why DLVL has to be in the equation - you just state it needs to be there, but provide no justification.

We already have a boatload of stats to use in the calculations - why does DLVL remotely matter? Between Attributes and Gear Stats there is no need for DLVL in the equation. DLVL should unlock skills that have higher stats and such....

In my opinion, if a R50 Gladiator puts on the same gear as an R1 Gladiator, carries the same weapon, equips the same skill, and assigns his stat points the same (or leves them unassigned as the case may be) - they should do exactly the same damage, take the same damage, and evade the same.

Ranking up unlocks skills that do more damage, gives you attributes you can assign that increase damage, etc - rank should not be a direct part of the calculation - instead it is indirectly reflected by the ability to equip stats, gear, attribute points, etc...

---

thats an interesting idea, but it would most likely put too much bias onto your stats, or your gear, they basically would have to make either your weapons or your base stats go up so high that you would be either living for every weapon. IE you are a weakling till you buy the new weapon, or your personal stats would be so high that any gear bonuses would have to be exponetially huge. IE at level 2 you can buy a +1 attack earring at level 50 you would need a +50 attack earring to see similar gains versus mobs of that level.

unless you make Dstats the big deal, but since your rank determines your stats that is just another form of drank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

but since your rank determines your stats that is just another form of drank.

---

Exactly - rank has a representation in stats - it does not need to be represented on it's own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naylia

Exactly - rank has a representation in stats - it does not need to be represented on it's own.

---

yeah but the amount youd have to get to account for 99 levels of mobs would be insane, unless you do dstat. but using only dstat in a free allotment system has major flaws, and in a fixed allotment system they would probably not give you any gear that directly effected it. or limit it greatly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Well played sir. Well played.

/golfclap

---

It means you don't have to respec your stats to the point that they might as well just delete the whole damn stats page.

If respeccing is the concern then just let us save "builds" by "job" - so that when you switch "jobs" it swaps your stats (which you've unlocked via Physical Level), your skills (which you unlocked via Discipline Rank), and your gear (which you bought, won, what not and meet the requirements (based on stats) to equip).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naylia

It means you don't have to respec your stats to the point that they might as well just delete the whole damn stats page.

If respeccing is the concern then just let us save "builds" by "job" - so that when you switch "jobs" it swaps your stats (which you've unlocked via Physical Level), your skills (which you unlocked via Discipline Rank), and your gear (which you bought, won, what not and meet the requirements (based on stats) to equip).

---

I guess that went over your head... Hes actually making fun of your suggestion and I'm laughing in agreement.