Lack of End Game Content

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hawklaser

And that is perfectly fine, just as is the suggestion that more could be done regarding end game content.

Everyone is going to consume content at different rates. And some have different tastes in content. But between this thread and the dungeon design one, its pretty clear to me that there is a demand for more challenging and varied battle content across all difficulty tiers, as well as those that would like a more robust endgame scene. Which both could be addressed together.

While many may be happy with the current state of the game, ARR's initial release felt more robust to me on this front. People are willing to give the devs time to figure out the best way to develop a robust endgame for XIV, hence the thread, but eventually their patience will run out, or competition will beat SE to the punch. Time isn't always in the Dev's favor.

Edit: Should also note that a persons speed of content consumption itself is not indicative of a lack of content. Just that those that consume content faster will encounter a lack of content faster. The two are not directly related beyond the fact they both deal with content. IE the book War and Peace has the same amount of content irregardless of if it takes you one day or one year to read it. So people consuming all of XIV's content in one day or one month is not the underlying issue. Its the total amount of content available to fill a specific area of game play that some feel is lacking.

---

I think that's a fair assessment. It just depends on whether the developers feel there is data to back that up for them to take action. We see the complaints, of course, but if the developers are happy with the amount/type/frequency of content they are currently producing, then it would take a significant player base reaction than a complaint on the forum to change that. That said, a complaint on the forum at least may make the developer aware of things to watch out for, so it's still potentially useful in that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nemmar

I watched the FFXIVARR documentary last night and the director/producer said he doesn't want to create a game where you feel pressured to log in every day. He is ok with you just coming back to the game every time there is a patch/expansion with stuff you want, play through it and go chill, cause people have lives and he doesn't want the game to get in the way of that.

And thank god for that. Last thing i'd want is that cancerous AP system that WoW has. I hate it with a passion. I literally feel like i'm in a hamster wheel. It is so slow and unrewarding and it made me burn out on Legion. No to AP systems. Worst system ever.

If you make an end-game system, please make something like SWTOR's crates of goodies. It's a complementary gear acquisition method + cosmetics.

---

You're mixing different things into one amalgam:

• With the new tomestone there's yet again a slight pressure to at least do 5 expert roulettes to cap them for the week if you care do keep up with the current equipment paths
• FF14 is a sub game: if you've done the MSQ and unlocked all dungeons there's not really much more in terms of endgame except doing those 3 endgame dungeons or Ex/Savage modes of raids you've already seen, or the usual of crafting/leveling/misc. activities, though none of them endgame in terms of DoM/DoW activites - which means at point X you're still paying for a sub with no new content until the next major patch, but you can only cancel your sub at point Y/or have to wait until your time from a game time card runs out

It's an actual sad design paradigm among MMORPGs in which new content is encapsulated and detached from all previous content, and once you're done with the newest part you have to wait for the next one to release, as there's just nothing new to do in the current part but repetitions of content you've already done and additionally there's close to 0 incentive for a max level character to go back to previous zones or doing previous content as there are no usable rewards in terms of equip/crafting mats.

FF14 has a massive list of dungeons/trials/raids, but my lvl 80 WHM has no reason to visit them but to see them once or for glamors/mounts, as they reward nothing I could actually use and my Expert roulette only contains the latest 3 dungeons.

Where's a lvl 80 hard-mode Aurum Vale with difficult pulls and e.g. constant poison damage + hard-hitting mobs as a healing challenge?

I really don't get it: what's the point of developing such a massive list of instanced content when it's only used during leveling + as a potential draw during a roulette?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Millybonk

I really don't get it: what's the point of developing such a massive list of instanced content when it's only used during leveling + as a potential draw during a roulette?

---

The point is the story. Each instanced content is part of the story that you go through once. Repeating it is just gameplay reason to help others go through it as well or for gear/glamour/mount/achievement or maybe challenge in the case of Ultimate (and even Savage for some people).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Millybonk

FF14 has a massive list of dungeons/trials/raids, but my lvl 80 WHM has no reason to visit them but to see them once or for glamors/mounts, as they reward nothing I could actually use and my Expert roulette only contains the latest 3 dungeons.

I really don't get it: what's the point of developing such a massive list of instanced content when it's only used during leveling + as a potential draw during a roulette?

---

With so many classes, for someone leveling all of them then they'll be seeing a lot of those dungeons.

You can also earn some amount of endgame tomes from leveling roulette (and most other roulettes) if you do it at Lv80 - a much more varied way of reaching your weekly tome cap instead of just running the three expert dungeons. You can do raids, trials, leveling and alliances to work your way towards that quota - or you can just let it slip for this week. It's only a treadmill after all: do content to get gear to do content....

Ultimately though, it's an RPG, made by a company whose primary focus is single-player RPGs, and with a lot of that mindset behind it. In a single-player RPG you often don't even redo dungeons, unless you need to go back for a later objective or grinding - you just work your way through it once, and move on to the next part of the story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

With so many classes, for someone leveling all of them then they'll be seeing a lot of those dungeons.

You can also earn some amount of endgame tomes from leveling roulette (and most other roulettes) if you do it at Lv80 - a much more varied way of reaching your weekly tome cap instead of just running the three expert dungeons. You can do raids, trials, leveling and alliances to work your way towards that quota - or you can just let it slip for this week. It's only a treadmill after all: do content to get gear to do content....

Ultimately though, it's an RPG, made by a company whose primary focus is single-player RPGs, and with a lot of that mindset behind it. In a single-player RPG you often don't even redo dungeons, unless you need to go back for a later objective or grinding - you just work your way through it once, and move on to the next part of the story.

---

Using such a non-precise wording isn't helping your argument:

• Using leveling roulette on a lvl 80 is a waste if you level any other job
• Any other roulette is only useful as long as you need Poetics/Goetia: if you've got everything you want with those currencies doing those roulettes on lvl 80 is pointless, hence every instance in those roulettes doesn't offer you anything anymore and are thus obsolete
• After that it only comes down to which roulettes you want to do to cap Phantasmagoria - and without the tomestone slapped on top of the roulettes no one would be doing any of the instances in the pool except the later ShB ones, as they reward them on their own, which was my point to begin with -> instances become obsolete the moment they don't reward you with items you can use at max level; additionally you'd be opting for the path of least resistance to cap them, which would be 5x Experte roulette in most cases, so only 3 dungeons
• Almost forgot: once you're capped for the week there is actually nothing to do anymore for 2 days. Yes you could still do content which rewards Phantasmagoria, but why bother investing time when you can't collect additional tomestones?

As for the point about RPG:

• If the scope of FF14 is indeed on the single-player aspect it's scary how much resources are wasted into developing instanced party content, which gets deprecated and never visited again once a new expansion/new instances/new tomestone are here
• Depending on the flavor of the RPG you go back to farm specific areas/bosses for drops e.g. Diablo 2 or re-visit areas you were too weak to do earlier e.g. Gothic I/II
• Unlike FF14 a RPG is a one-time purchase, can be modded if it's popular enough and has a replay-value. The main replay-value of FF14 is watching the MSQ again in your room or replay selected instances you like due to atmosphere/soundtrack/boss mechanics

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Millybonk

If the scope of FF14 is indeed on the single-player aspect it's scary how much resources are wasted into developing instanced party content, which gets deprecated and never visited again once a new expansion/new instances/new tomestone are here

---

People are still running them regardless. Whether it be via roulettes, party finder, or just a callout for help in people's respective communities (FC, FL, LS, NN, random shout, etc.).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

People are still running them regardless. Whether it be via roulettes, party finder, or just a callout for help in people's respective communities (FC, FL, LS, NN, random shout, etc.).

---

The "doing them regardless" looks like really strong argument, but a closer look reveals that:

• A. People run them as a consequence of doing roulettes at lvl 80 to get a certain kind of tomestone, which means if you don't need those tomestone you won't be running those roulettes on your lvl 80 character
• B. Every non-ShB instanced content is mainly done to see it once/help someone/glamor/mount drops etc., as they reward nothing a lvl 80 can use in terms of equipment or crafting mats

Right now my lvl 80 WHM has nothing to do as I did the MSQ, capped Phantasmagoria for this week and I currently don't care for Ex/savage.

If I wouldn't be doing daily ARR Beast Tribes I would've been unsubbing by now, as there is no content left at the endgame for me until the next patch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Millybonk

The "doing them regardless" looks like really strong argument, but a closer look reveals that:

• A. People run them as a consequence of doing roulettes at lvl 80 to get a certain kind of tomestone, which means if you don't need those tomestone you won't be running those roulettes on your lvl 80 character
• B. Every non-ShB instanced content is mainly done to see it once/help someone/glamor/mount drops etc., as they reward nothing a lvl 80 can use in terms of equipment or crafting mats

Right now my lvl 80 WHM has nothing to do as I did the MSQ, capped Phantasmagoria for this week and I currently don't care for Ex/savage.

If I wouldn't be doing daily ARR Beast Tribes I would've been unsubbing by now, as there is no content left at the endgame for me until the next patch.

---

Whether or not there is anything to do is for every player to decide (the same thing with whether or not to unsubscribe). There is nothing to argue in that regard as I'm not going to dictate what another player should do.

The point here is that the multiple instances there are in the game don't go to waste. Every time you do a leveling roulette, for example, either to level another job on the same character or to gain more tomestone or to help someone else, you can potentially still get to run Sastasha, the very first dungeon in this game. That might not even be an option in another MMO except maybe helping someone else run an instance.

Leveling a new job and you can get Sastasha. Finished with your daily roulette and you can get Sastasha the next day. Finished with your weekly cap and you can get Sastasha the next week. Finished with tomestone gear and you can get Sastasha the next raid tier with new tomestone. Finished with the expansion and you can get Sastasha the next expansion.

Of course, you can also choose not to run leveling roulette because you don't think it's worth it, but plenty of people do, so all the duties in that roulette will potentially be used at any given day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

The point here is that the multiple instances there are in the game don't go to waste. Every time you do a leveling roulette, for example, either to level another job on the same character or to gain more tomestone or to help someone else, you can potentially still get to run Sastasha, the very first dungeon in this game. That might not even be an option in another MMO except maybe helping someone else run an instance.

---

While Sastasha doesn't go to waste thanks to being included in the duty roulettes, it doesn't magically make it endgame content either.

Though filler content aside, I do still think the primary culprit of the lack of content complaints is due to missing challenging and varied battle content for the current level cap. (Its why I'm patiently waiting on NG+.)

Ultimately, it is probably due to some odd gaps in the difficulty thanks to only one of two difficulty sliders really seeming to being used much. We got the what I would call the professionalism slider (normal, extreme, savage, ultimate) and the generic progression slider. The professionalism slider very cleary gets used and can very quickly tell as it slides one way or the other. The generic progression slider seems to have gotten stuck or forgotten about somewhere on the low end. ARR you could tell the general difficulty went up slowly across the story but also didn't feel like it was crossing into the next professional tier. The recent expansions have not had that feel to them.

When done right this creates a nice nearly smooth difficulty curve. When done wrong you get an odd stair step/cliff difficulty curve. The stair/cliff curves also tend to have a lack of content or rushed feel to them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

Whether or not there is anything to do is for every player to decide (the same thing with whether or not to unsubscribe). There is nothing to argue in that regard as I'm not going to dictate what another player should do.

The point here is that the multiple instances there are in the game don't go to waste. Every time you do a leveling roulette, for example, either to level another job on the same character or to gain more tomestone or to help someone else, you can potentially still get to run Sastasha, the very first dungeon in this game. That might not even be an option in another MMO except maybe helping someone else run an instance.

Leveling a new job and you can get Sastasha. Finished with your daily roulette and you can get Sastasha the next day. Finished with your weekly cap and you can get Sastasha the next week. Finished with tomestone gear and you can get Sastasha the next raid tier with new tomestone. Finished with the expansion and you can get Sastasha the next expansion.

Of course, you can also choose not to run leveling roulette because you don't think it's worth it, but plenty of people do, so all the duties in that roulette will potentially be used at any given day.

---

What should I call this mode of argumentation you're using here?

I gave you specifics about

• How limited lvl 80 content is: 3 lvl 80 dungeons, 3 trials up to lvl 80, 1 raid, Ex/savage
• How every non-ShB instance is only relevant due to the tomestones slapped on top of roulettes - and if you don't need those tomestone or a capped for the week all those roulettes + its pool of instanced content becomes instantly obsolete

and you're like "Every player has to decide if there's anything to do" while tunnel-visioning on leveling roulette.

Are you afraid of facts?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hawklaser

While Sastasha doesn't go to waste thanks to being included in the duty roulettes, it doesn't magically make it endgame content either.

---

Indirectly it is if you're getting rewarded specifically for running it via roulette on a max level job. And specifically for leveling and alliance raid contents, even without running them with a max level job, they give adventurers in need rewards that benefit max level jobs. But yes, the main point is that all these instanced contents are getting used. Whether or not they're endgame or whether or not any particular player is interested in doing them, they serve a purpose both while leveling and at max level.

As for difficulty and variety, I have not much comment to make other than the fact that I'm not against having more of either or both for contents. That said, I don't think NG+ would do anything in regard to this as it's more about replaying old content, which is the opposite of what some people want based on this thread. We don't even know if NG+ will give exp if you still need it or if it will scale with your level if you're doing it on a higher level job. It might give no exp and not scale up, thus making the fights too easy and serve only for people to experience the story if they skipped it or redo it if they enjoyed it that much.

Sorry, I did not see this earlier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Millybonk

What should I call this mode of argumentation you're using here?

---

Maybe read it again:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

There is nothing to argue in that regard

---

The point is if you feel you have no more use for those contents, then I won't argue with you on that.

Quote:

---

I gave you specifics about

• How limited lvl 80 content is: 3 lvl 80 dungeons, 3 trials up to lvl 80, 1 raid, Ex/savage
• How every non-ShB instance is only relevant due to the tomestones slapped on top of roulettes - and if you don't need those tomestone or a capped for the week all those roulettes + its pool of instanced content becomes instantly obsolete

and you're like "Every player has to decide if there's anything to do" while tunnel-visioning on leveling roulette.

Are you afraid of facts?

---

Those facts are irrelevant to what my actual argument was. Leveling roulette was just an example. The tunnel visioning happens when you think content is wasted because it's obsolete for you. As long as it can be used by someone, it's not wasted. It's certainly not wasted on me. Being relevant only due to tomestone still makes it relevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Millybonk

What should I call this mode of argumentation you're using here?

I gave you specifics about

• How limited lvl 80 content is: 3 lvl 80 dungeons, 3 trials up to lvl 80, 1 raid, Ex/savage
• How every non-ShB instance is only relevant due to the tomestones slapped on top of roulettes - and if you don't need those tomestone or a capped for the week all those roulettes + its pool of instanced content becomes instantly obsolete

and you're like "Every player has to decide if there's anything to do" while tunnel-visioning on leveling roulette.

Are you afraid of facts?

---

You layed it out quite simply. Unfortunately there's no speaking reason to someone who still considers doing Satasha at max level "End Game" content, simply because they are doing it through leveling roulette.

So, this has nothing to do with my response to Millybonk, but just to address it:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avraym

You layed it out quite simply. Unfortunately there's no speaking reason to someone who still considers doing Satasha at max level "End Game" content, simply because they are doing it through leveling roulette.

---

Strange, considering it fits even the narrower definition of endgame presented in this thread: done on a level cap job. It even works toward your endgame/level cap progression in terms of gear.

So just to clarify: A character in FFXIV can run a level 15 dungeon on a max level job and be rewarded for progression toward a max level gear that will be among the best in the entire raid tier.

That's just how the game of FFXIV works. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but if you can't even acknowledge it, then it's clear you don't understand this game (and by extension, how endgame works in this game).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

Strange, considering it fits even the narrower definition of endgame presented in this thread: done on a level cap job.

---

Nope. Endgame content has never been, and never will be, content you choose to do at level cap. It is content that requires you to be at level cap. It is content that is restricted to max level. You're changing the definition once again to fit an agenda. New rewards for leveling content doesn't make that content endgame content.

EDIT: Farming for BIS gear can be an endgame activity, but the content run to farm for that gear may not be endgame content. Running Sastasha? Definitely not endgame content no matter what you're farming. Are you seriously suggesting running a level 20 dungeon is endgame content?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaylessa

Nope. Endgame content has never been, and never will be, content you choose to do at level cap. It is content that requires you to be at level cap. It is content that is restricted to max level. You're changing the definition once again to fit an agenda. New rewards for leveling content doesn't make that content endgame content.

EDIT: Farming for BIS gear can be an endgame activity, but the content run to farm for that gear may not be endgame content. Running Sastasha? Definitely not endgame content no matter what you're farming. Are you seriously suggesting running a level 20 dungeon is endgame content?

---

He is. Is it still considered end game content if you don't need the tomes I wonder???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaylessa

Nope. Endgame content has never been, and never will be, content you choose to do at level cap. It is content that requires you to be at level cap. It is content that is restricted to max level. You're changing the definition once again to fit an agenda. New rewards for leveling content doesn't make that content endgame content.

EDIT: Farming for BIS gear can be an endgame activity, but the content run to farm for that gear may not be endgame content. Running Sastasha? Definitely not endgame content no matter what you're farming. Are you seriously suggesting running a level 20 dungeon is endgame content?

---

Endgame content is activity you do for endgame. So it's endgame activity, but it's not endgame content? And I didn't say Sastasha itself was endgame content, but indirectly it becomes endgame content due to how FFXIV does its endgame activity.

This is why your definition for endgame from other MMORPG doesn't work when applied to FFXIV as is without recognizing how the game works.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avraym

He is. Is it still considered end game content if you don't need the tomes I wonder???

---

Is it still endgame content if you don't need the gear from the raid I wonder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

Is it still endgame content if you don't need the gear from the raid I wonder.

---

Yes because its specifically content that is one of the most currently challenging and cannot be done below max level.

Core ingredients of what most consider end game.

Unlike Satasha.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avraym

Yes because its specifically content that is challenging and cannot be done below max level.

Unlike Satasha.

---

Ahaha, moving the goalpost, so now you want it to have difficulty involved.

By the way, you can't get current tomestones running Sastasha not on a max level job either. Sastasha itself isn't endgame content, but it is involved in endgame content as that is how FFXIV works to make use of older content. (And this part actually has something to do with my response to Millybonk.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

Ahaha, moving the goalpost, so now you want it to have difficulty involved.

By the way, you can't get current tomestones running Sastasha not on a max level job either. Sastasha itself isn't endgame content, but it is involved in endgame content as that is how FFXIV works to make use of older content. (And this part actually has something to do with my response to Millybonk.)

---

Not moving the goalpost. My stance was always clear.

You can't paint all end game content by the same brush either, nor can you do the same with casual content.

There is end game content that doesn't offer much of a challenge, like the casual raids, but i'd still consider it end game content.

Fun fact, the leveling roulette isn't also exclusively for max level either, the XP reward actually encourages it to be just the opposite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avraym

Not moving the goalpost. My stance was always clear.

You can't paint all end game content by the same brush either, nor can you do the same with casual content.

There is end game content that doesn't offer much of a challenge, like the casual raids, but i'd still consider it end game content.

Fun fact, the leveling roulette isn't also exclusively for max level either, the XP reward actually encourages it to be just the opposite.

---

Ok, so this might be more appropriate to the other thread about how MMORPG has changed. But even though it's the same content, it gives you different reward when you do it on a leveling job vs a max level job. You might think that disqualifies it from being endgame content, but it doesn't change the fact that it is how it's used for max level job in this game.

So status report. Before the first week was over, I cleared turns 1-3 with pug groups. That is now on farm status. I expect to beat e4s before this week is over. Are you really telling me this is fine? That the one piece of content I will get in 6 months, I will have already beaten all of it after 2 weeks, when it used to take top groups 3 weeks to beat the entirety of savage? Now me, with my pug groups, can beat it in 2 weeks. The only piece of content that raiders enjoy is so easily beatable. If you really think this is okay, you're delusional.

P.S. I haven't been no lifeing it. I've been going to my full time job...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zabuza

So status report. Before the first week was over, I cleared turns 1-3 with pug groups. That is now on farm status. I expect to beat e4s before this week is over. Are you really telling me this is fine? That the one piece of content I will get in 6 months, I will have already beaten all of it after 2 weeks, when it used to take top groups 3 weeks to beat the entirety of savage? Now me, with my pug groups, can beat it in 2 weeks. The only piece of content that raiders enjoy is so easily beatable. If you really think this is okay, you're delusional.

---

Well, if enough people keep subscribing, then they're voting with their wallet to say that it is okay.

Grats, by the way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zabuza

So status report. Before the first week was over, I cleared turns 1-3 with pug groups. That is now on farm status. I expect to beat e4s before this week is over. Are you really telling me this is fine? That the one piece of content I will get in 6 months, I will have already beaten all of it after 2 weeks, when it used to take top groups 3 weeks to beat the entirety of savage? Now me, with my pug groups, can beat it in 2 weeks. The only piece of content that raiders enjoy is so easily beatable. If you really think this is okay, you're delusional.

P.S. I haven't been no lifeing it. I've been going to my full time job...

---

I would imagine you are in the few % that lucky to clear that quickly, even more so with pugs. My groups still working on e2s, but we only get about 2 nights a week, for a couple hours.

You'll get an ultimate in 3 months. You can always go back and do previous ultimates, or try synced/min ilvl previous tiers. Just because they aren't max level doesn't mean they aren't still a challenge. Hell, if you are really brave, do 2nd coil savage min ilvl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zabuza

So status report. Before the first week was over, I cleared turns 1-3 with pug groups. That is now on farm status. I expect to beat e4s before this week is over. Are you really telling me this is fine? That the one piece of content I will get in 6 months, I will have already beaten all of it after 2 weeks, when it used to take top groups 3 weeks to beat the entirety of savage? Now me, with my pug groups, can beat it in 2 weeks. The only piece of content that raiders enjoy is so easily beatable. If you really think this is okay, you're delusional.

P.S. I haven't been no lifeing it. I've been going to my full time job...

---

I sympathise with you - I really do.

I'm almost at the same point with Eden, exclusively with PUGS.

It doesn't feel great to be at the end so quickly with no new end game for months to come.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avraym

I sympathise with you - I really do.

I'm almost at the same point with Eden, exclusively with PUGS.

It doesn't feel great to be at the end so quickly.

---

Or just some other type of content to go with it. Or a higher difficulty on the savage. Or 1-2 more savage fights added per tier. Anything really...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zabuza

Or just some other type of content to go with it. Or a higher difficulty on the savage. Or 1-2 more savage fights added per tier. Anything really...

---

4 Savages really isn't much of a raid compared to most MMO standards. Even if you include the extremes.

5-6 Savages feel like the right amount we should get for a game this developed.

I honestly don't mind the status quo we've been maintaining all these years. I can do my weeklies and then play other games, only sometimes occasionally logging in to hang out, cap tomes, go into my house. You don't have to XIV 24/7 and in fact I'd say taking short breaks helps you continue loving the game for the next months/years to come. It definitely curbs burnout.

I'll say it and dont care if i get crucified for it....end game in ffxiv is a JOKE and if u truly believe otherwise you are delusional...period

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

Endgame content is activity you do for endgame. So it's endgame activity, but it's not endgame content? And I didn't say Sastasha itself was endgame content, but indirectly it becomes endgame content due to how FFXIV does its endgame activity.

This is why your definition for endgame from other MMORPG doesn't work when applied to FFXIV as is without recognizing how the game works.

---

An endgame activity is something to be performed at endgame, or only at max level. Endgame content is material in the game to be consumed only at max level. You can do an endgame activity by consuming leveling content. An endgame dungeon is both an activity and content, the dungeon is the content and the activity is you running through it. An endgame raid is similar. Collecting tomes is an activity you can do by running old content.

You can collect tomes at endgame as an endgame activity, that does not mean running through Sastasha is endgame content. Which it is not. Indirectly or directly.

The definition of endgame for MMOs applies for ALL MMOs, FFXIV included.

EDIT: The ridiculous thing is how in depth we have to get for something that is really just common sense. Unfortunately someone wants more endgame content and people on this forum direct them toward ... Sastasha and leveling alts. Wonderful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MonteCristo

I'll say it and dont care if i get crucified for it....end game in ffxiv is a JOKE and if u truly believe otherwise you are delusional...period

---

Don't be so dramatic, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaylessa

You can do an endgame activity by consuming leveling content.

---

And at that point, you are making that content an endgame content for the duration of that activity.

Quote:

---

Unfortunately someone wants more endgame content and people on this forum direct them toward ... Sastasha and leveling alts. Wonderful.

---

All he had to do was post this as an opening:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avraym

Since i'll try and be constructive here and make some suggestions
- 5-6 Savages instead of 4
- A developed Eureka, not the lazy fate spaming/light farming we've been given
- Meaningful Open World Content / Redesign Hunt System
- Challenging 4 Man Content
- Challenging Solo Content
- Dungeons which are actually difficult

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

And at that point, you are making that content an endgame content for the duration of that activity.

---

No. Material able to be consumed before max level is not endgame content. Sastasha is never endgame content. You are performing an endgame activity while running leveling content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaylessa

You are performing an endgame activity while running leveling content.

---

Content is not just material. It is activity and associated reward. By your definition, someone can be at endgame doing an endgame activity and getting rewarded with endgame reward without doing a single endgame content. That's ridiculous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

Content is not just material. It is activity and associated reward. By your definition, someone can be at endgame doing an endgame activity and getting rewarded with endgame reward without doing a single endgame content. That's ridiculous.

---

Show me the definition which says content is an activity. You won't find one, I can assure you of that.

Someone can be at endgame doing an endgame activity and getting an endgame reward without engaging in endgame content, that is correct.

Blind progged Eden Savage 1-4 in a cumulative 35 hours of prog give or take. Week 1 killer. Of those 35 hours, over 20 of them were on e4s alone. Take that for what you will.

Personally speaking I think 4 raid bosses followed by an Ultimate 3 months later is a good formula. Savage is your means to an end and Ultimate is that end. The 3 months is to give everyone time to prepare and get their best in slot gear ready for Ultimate. I'm not against expanding how many fights we get per Savage tier itself, but I'm also not opposed to the four-boss structure as that gives us 5 bosses every half year.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaylessa

Show me the definition which says content is an activity. You won't find one, I can assure you of that. Content as a verb only means to satisfy someone.

Someone can be at endgame doing an endgame activity and getting an endgame reward without engaging in endgame content, that is correct.

---

Content is also a noun that can mean "the things that are held or included in something" or "the amount of a particular constituent occurring in a substance." It means something that is inside or part of something. When you think of raid as a piece of content, it includes the enemies, the mechanics, the zone, the reward structure, the music, party composition, how to unlock it, how to perform it, etc. Everything that is a part of that piece of content.

Content as a verb to satisfy someone is not even relevant to this discussion. Unless you think it's something that satisfy you at max level. In that case, someone, somewhere could be satisfied slowly farming max level current tomestone via leveling roulette. /shrug

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

Content is also a noun that can mean "the things that are held or included in something" or "the amount of a particular constituent occurring in a substance." It means something that is inside or part of something.

---

That is correct. Now apply the modifier "endgame" to content and you get "max level things that are included in something". The reward you get is the max level content, farming that reward is the max level activity, running Sastasha doesn't fit the definition of "max level things that are included in FFXIV" and so that is not endgame content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaylessa

That is correct. Now apply the modifier "endgame" to content and you get "max level things that are included in something". The reward you get is the max level content, farming that reward is the max level activity, running Sastasha doesn't fit the definition of "max level things that are included in FFXIV" and so that is not endgame content.

---

The reward you get is not the whole max level content. It is also the activity associated with getting that reward.

If someone asks you what is there to do at max level, you can tell them to do raid to get raid gear or to do roulettes (or other means) to get max level tomestones for tomestone gear which can be further upgraded. Those are alternative endgame content for people to do at max level in terms of gear progression.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

The reward you get is not the whole max level content. It is also the activity associated with getting that reward.

If someone asks you what is there to do at max level, you can tell them to do raid to get raid gear or to do roulettes (or other means) to get max level tomestones for tomestone gear which can be further upgraded. Those are alternative endgame content for people to do at max level in terms of gear progression.

---

If someone asks you "what is there to do" they are not specifying "endgame content". The definition of activity is "a thing someone does" which means they are actually asking for endgame activities.

Show me the definition which says content is an activity.