Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seera1024

Which is why I said that she could play as she likes in MSQ content because it is forgiving of most things if other players are playing closer to the meta.

---

What is the meta?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seera1024

I'd say as long as her way of playing is not causing wipes or anything like that, that she's fine to play how she wants. I'd imagine that any content that's required for the MSQ is probably forgiving enough for most play styles.

---

I get your stance but at the very least can you admit how problematic it is? If it is not causing wipes then it is fine? I have cleared content with a soul crystal, I have clear content with melee only rdm etc . . . having the bar being as low as if you can clear the content in a game where the bar is so low leaves open some strange possibilities.

On moblie without a job crystal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nethereal

I can see where they're coming from.

Inherently no one's time is more valuable than your own because it is 'your time' however that means it makes sense to treat people the way you want to be treated in hopes to increase the chance of them respecting your time.
The opposite side of that is anyone disrespecting your time does not deserve your time, the reason is really irrelevant but I just thought I would put that thought process out there.



This is very similar to RPing in public dungeons/areas/runs

It's nice that your wife is having fun and there are places for that mentality but she should also respect that her way of playing is unique and that it warrants annoyance from most people as she is disrespecting the time of anyone she plays with intentionally, this is fine in a controlled group of friends but with randoms it's not their responsibility to play along. Other than that have fun the way you want to have fun.

---

I don't see it as that. The game itself forces her to group with players to do the content, and it is not her fault she enjoys what she enjoys. She does not do harder content because she understands she is not a min/max player. She only does group content that the game makes her do to keep on the storyline. So the issue is not with her and how she wants to play. It is the game design that requires her to group up at times for big bosses. Grouping is fine, but players must be understanding that the content they do is design for players like her to beat. So being annoyed because she wants to play like that is silly in my books.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I don't see it as that. The game itself forces her to group with players to do the content, and it is not her fault she enjoys what she enjoys.

---

This is a multiplayer game so I don't really see this as an excuse since it's what you signed up for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wavaryen

She does not do harder content because she understands she is not a min/max player. She only does group content that the game makes her do to keep on the storyline. So the issue is not with her and how she wants to play. It is the game design that requires her to group up at times for big bosses.

---

Multiplayer game, not singleplayer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Grouping is fine, but players must be understanding that the content they do is design for players like her to beat. So being annoyed because she wants to play like that is silly in my books.

---

Content is made to be done by people who put in the work to do it, the amount is just different.

Respect the fact that this is a multiplayer game and not a single player one and that regardless of it not being malicious it does not negate the fact your wife intentionally wastes other player's time because she has skills she doesn't like using.

It's fine to play how you want to play but own up to it.

I play the game wrong but still clear content efficiently because I told my group up front this is how I play and how I want to play if it becomes a problem I'll either get better, stop or find another group.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nethereal

This is a multiplayer game so I don't really see this as an excuse since it's what you signed up for.



Multiplayer game, not singleplayer.



Content is made to be done by people who put in the work to do it, the amount is just different.

Respect the fact that this is a multiplayer game and not a single player one and that regardless of it not being malicious it does not negate the fact your wife intentionally wastes other player's time because she has skills she doesn't like using.

It's fine to play how you want to play but own up to it.

I play the game wrong but still clear content efficiently because I told my group up front this is how I play and how I want to play if it becomes a problem I'll either get better, stop or find another group.

---

We don't see eye to eye what a Mutiplayer game is.

Social elements, Crafting, market place. All of this is also mutiplayer elements. Doing content with other players should be a choice, when it is forced to get to the other parts of the game that still makes it a mutiplayer game, but her playstyle would not matter in it. So the game is design to be beaten with players like her in mind. So why should she say anything?


If you are doing a public group, there is no set rules to how she should play in a public settings. She does not need to tell anyone anything. If it is a private group where you can set the rules and or Linkshell that has a requirement. That is one thing, but public groups? It goes both ways, We taking a little bit longer to get the dungeon done is a better price to pay than forcing her to play in a way that is not fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wavaryen

We don't see eye to eye what a Mutiplayer game is.

Social elements, Crafting, market place. All of this is also mutiplayer elements. Doing content with other players should be a choice, when it is forced to get to the other parts of the game that still makes it a mutiplayer game, but her playstyle would not matter in it. So the game is design to be beaten with players like her in mind. So why should she say anything?


If you are doing a public group, there is no set rules to how she should play in a public settings. She does not need to tell anyone anything. If it is a private group where you can set the rules and or Linkshell that has a requirement. That is one thing, but public groups? It goes both ways, We taking a little bit longer to get the dungeon done is a better price to pay than forcing her to play in a way that is not fun.

---

You are talking about a singleplayer game with co-op or just a co-op game in general.
Usually done by yourself, with bots, or 2-3 additional players including yourself.

As for your "choice" it was left at the door when you decided to open it, you can still close it though.

This is a MMORPG, the first two letters of the acronym are all you need to understand what you're getting yourself into, massive multiplayer.
The standard is content will be done with multiple players regardless of anything else, there is no excuse.
You could be forgiven if this is the first MMORPG you've played though.

She shouldn't say anything in pug groups, I agree. I was more so referencing that you shouldn't hide behind sophistry because you choose to not be good at something for whatever reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nethereal

This is a multiplayer game so I don't really see this as an excuse since it's what you signed up for.



Multiplayer game, not singleplayer.



Content is made to be done by people who put in the work to do it, the amount is just different.

Respect the fact that this is a multiplayer game and not a single player one and that regardless of it not being malicious it does not negate the fact your wife intentionally wastes other player's time because she has skills she doesn't like using.

It's fine to play how you want to play but own up to it.

I play the game wrong but still clear content efficiently because I told my group up front this is how I play and how I want to play if it becomes a problem I'll either get better, stop or find another group.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nethereal

You are talking about a singleplayer game with co-op or just a co-op game in general.
Usually done by yourself, with bots, or 2-3 additional players including yourself.

As for your "choice" it was left at the door when you decided to open it, you can still close it though.

This is a MMORPG, the first two letters of the acronym are all you need to understand what you're getting yourself into, massive multiplayer.
The standard is content will be done with multiple players regardless of anything else, there is no excuse.
You could be forgiven if this is the first MMORPG you've played though.

She shouldn't say anything in pug groups, I agree. I was more so referencing that you shouldn't hide behind sophistry because you choose to not be good at something for whatever reason.

---

So does a mmo means that a player must play by the rules of others around them? I'm just thinking about Ultima online and some other mmorpgs that things like this was not really a big deal.



A mmorpg does not mean force grouping does it? Grouping is a element of the mmorpg. At the end of the day it is still a game, and the game design where I must group at times. Well the content is design that my skill, or how I want to play the game it can still get done. I'm ok with grouping, and the game has rules to protect me from players being mean about how I enjoy the game.

Now, if I was to do lets say super hard content that is not required, and I go in expecting how I enjoy the game to get me through it. Every player should vote kick me, because I don't belong in said content.



How I play still has massive amount of players. I still use them (for profits in trading.) and talk with them. Interact with them in the world and such. Lucky now most group content can be solo as well with Trusts. So the game even caters to my mindset and what I feel a mmorpg is.



I am sure we will not agree, but hey that is ok with me! lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caurcas

"Remember only your fun matters, not the people playing with you. They might as well be npcs, and they are there to serve you." -Great Community

---

Dude, that is basically your ENTIRE take in this thread. "I'm the only one that matters in this group I lazily let the game randomly match me with and only my little numbers on a third party app or the way I think they should be playing matters".

*steps over the streams of nuclear waste and toxins flowing through this thread*

Well, the title ain't wrong. This is a community of paper thin skin and tomato glass bones. Idiotic and childish behavior/mentalities get a pass because "uwu baby you do you just be happy" and that vibe thing the kids seem to be all the rage about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Dude, that is basically your ENTIRE take in this thread. "I'm the only one that matters in this group I lazily let the game randomly match me with and only my little numbers on a third party app or the way I think they should be playing matters".

---

Objectively wrong though, as the group (however bad) benefits from my decent skill. I.E. I give far more benefits than I take away, the same can not be said for about half the players I am matched with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Dude, that is basically your ENTIRE take in this thread. "I'm the only one that matters in this group I lazily let the game randomly match me with and only my little numbers on a third party app or the way I think they should be playing matters".

---

I kinda agree, while I am very much aware that my playstyle might bother people I group with. (even though it is kinda silly when the content is design to be done with my skill level in mind.). What they seem to want is for me to change how I enjoy the game just for that one type of content that I only do when the game requires me to do it.



This game has wayyy more content than grouping and combat, and come on..if you want more control over what type of players you get. You have the tools to do it. Convenience comes at the cost of grouping up with players like little ol me. lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caurcas

Objectively wrong though, as the group (however bad) benefits from my decent skill. I.E. I give far more benefits than I take away, the same can not be said for about half the players I am matched with.

---

Okay at this point you have to be doing this on purpose. Nobody is that conceited.

Yesterday and today I did Leveling Roulette on my NIN. Qitana Ravel and Bardam's Mettle respectively.

Both times I got teamed up with a healer that would only spam Cure, Cure II and Cure III. The Qitana Ravel one was a returning player with only a level 76 WHM leveled up. The Bardam's Mettle had 2 other classes above level 60.

Each run took 50+ and 40+ min respectively. Yesterday I decided to stay quiet and see if anyone else in the party would say something, but instead the Tank "adjusted" by doing single mob group pulls, and we wiped once to mobs, once to the 2nd boss and twice to the 3rd boss.

Today after we wiped to the Tank pulling 2 groups of mobs (not even a wall to wall pull) and the healer said in chat that he was pulling too much, I decided to speak up and politely tell the WHM to take a second to read the descriptions of Medica II, Tetragamation, Assize, Afflatus, Benediction and Divine Benison, that we would wait for him. I immediately got told off by the other DPS to be nicer cause the healer was "new". How is being a level 67 WHM with 2 other jobs above 60 considered "new"??

I was recounting these events to some friends over in Discord who advised me to either drop the party or deal with it because if I kept pushing the subject I could be reported for harrasment and get banned.

So while this is a problem enabled by players, at it's core it's also enabled by the GMs that consider people requesting others to do the bare minimum expected of their jobs (I was not even requesting him to DPS while healing, just to use the heals that he had available) a form of harrasment and bannable.

Seeing as this influx of "new" and "returning" players was caused by the Endwalker announcement, for the time being I'll stick to PoTD, HoH and Bozja leveling and avoid Leveling Roulette and dungeons like the plague.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Okay at this point you have to be doing this on purpose. Nobody is that conceited.

---

Its not being conceited, its telling the truth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lezard21

Yesterday and today I did Leveling Roulette on my NIN. Qitana Ravel and Bardam's Mettle respectively.

Both times I got teamed up with a healer that would only spam Cure, Cure II and Cure III. The Qitana Ravel one was a returning player with only a level 76 WHM leveled up. The Bardam's Mettle had 2 other classes above level 60.

Each run took 50+ and 40+ min respectively. Yesterday I decided to stay quiet and see if anyone else in the party would say something, but instead the Tank "adjusted" by doing single mob group pulls, and we wiped once to mobs, once to the 2nd boss and twice to the 3rd boss.

Today after we wiped to the Tank pulling 2 groups of mobs (not even a wall to wall pull) and the healer said in chat that he was pulling too much, I decided to speak up and politely tell the WHM to take a second to read the descriptions of Medica II, Tetragamation, Assize, Afflatus, Benediction and Divine Benison, that we would wait for him. I immediately got told off by the other DPS to be nicer cause the healer was "new". How is being a level 67 WHM with 2 other jobs above 60 considered "new"??

I was recounting these events to some friends over in Discord who advised me to either drop the party or deal with it because if I kept pushing the subject I could be reported for harrasment and get banned.

So while this is a problem enabled by players, at it's core it's also enabled by the GMs that consider people requesting others to do the bare minimum expected of their jobs (I was not even requesting him to DPS while healing, just to use the heals that he had available) a form of harrasment and bannable.

Seeing as this influx of "new" and "returning" players was caused by the Endwalker announcement, for the time being I'll stick to PoTD, HoH and Bozja leveling and avoid Leveling Roulette and dungeons like the plague.

---

My husband kinda went over this, but you could have whisper the person and ask would they like some advice. Trying to help someone can also make them feel bad for failing and being new. Being polite does not mean that whm has to listen to your advice.



Using a queue system to make a group for you right? So the cost of convenience is quality. A group failing or taking longer is not such a big deal in a game is it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lezard21

Today after we wiped to the Tank pulling 2 groups of mobs (not even a wall to wall pull) and the healer said in chat that he was pulling too much, I decided to speak up and politely tell the WHM to take a second to read the descriptions of Medica II, Tetragamation, Assize, Afflatus, Benediction and Divine Benison, that we would wait for him. I immediately got told off by the other DPS to be nicer cause the healer was "new". How is being a level 67 WHM with 2 other jobs above 60 considered "new"??

---

If that's really how you put it, then it sounds like your phrasing could use some work. That comes off as dismissive, impatient, and accusatory, especially the "we'll wait for you" part. If you have experience in the class and want to offer to share that, then just explain that you are a fellow WHM and you have some tips that might make things easier if they're open to it. And if they say no, then that's that.

Another way to approach it is to not single any one person out but say something like "Team, I see we're having some problems. Would it help if we take a breather to assess and figure out what we can adjust?"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jadedsins

So does a mmo means that a player must play by the rules of others around them? I'm just thinking about Ultima online and some other mmorpgs that things like this was not really a big deal.

---

That is because there is no game that has combat that functions exactly like FFXIV.
The uniqueness is on levels of Mabinogi and the concept behind the flow of combat would probably be similar to Tera.

The reason it isn't such a big deal in other games is that they don't have hard enrages as common practice it's usually only something you see in high-endgame content and even then they might not have a hard enrage only a soft one like in tera where if you don't kill something fast enough it'll get a buff where it does more damage and is faster.

The reason this game has hard enrages is because the concept of combat is slow and static and not erratic, with practice you should be able to do everything easily as there is almost no randomness where as in other games boss's usually have mechanics that will randomly target people consistently through out the fight during other mechanics and it will catch you off guard and eventually kill you, you'll never see two different mechanics going on in FFXIV that aren't intended to be done in a specific way.

Other games literally have multiple mechanics go off with the express intent to kill you and that's fine because it's action oriented and the death in those games isn't as costly as it is in FFXIV. Pretty much every other game has resources that can be built and maxed after about 30 seconds if that, in FFXIV you have resources that take 1 minute normal and upwards of 90 seconds to max out in a game where nothing is random death is a lot more costly for the trade off that content is a lot more simple.

Basically you're comparing apples and oranges, there is no game with a combat system like FFXIV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jadedsins

A mmorpg does not mean force grouping does it? Grouping is a element of the mmorpg.

---

Context is relevant but any actual gamer will know that a large amount of relevant content in a MMORPG will in general mean forced grouping (whether that means immediate grouping is irrelevant) unless the content was designed specifically for a lower amount of players or to solo, to expect otherwise would honestly be disingenuous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jadedsins

At the end of the day it is still a game, and the game design where I must group at times. Well the content is design that my skill, or how I want to play the game it can still get done. I'm ok with grouping, and the game has rules to protect me from players being mean about how I enjoy the game.

---

Mean is too subjective and has too much bias.
Anyone can be "mean", you playing the way you want to play the game could be "mean".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jadedsins

Now, if I was to do lets say super hard content that is not required, and I go in expecting how I enjoy the game to get me through it. Every player should vote kick me, because I don't belong in said content.

---

The difficulty is irrelevant in relation to your attitude about the content, a bad player doing ultimate content is still a bad player when they do casual content, vice versa.

Nor does the game control where you should be, everything is elective the expectations may vary on the content but your attitude about the content and how you play should be a constant.
Deciding you want to intentionally gimp people because it's casual content does not change the nature of the action only the result. It's principal.

To go against the grain of self improvement for the betterment of the group intentionally whether malicious or not does not change the nature of said actions and it shouldn't be surprising that some people will elect to vote you out in hopes to find more like-minded individuals.
Now if you were to not understand that and for it to be unintentional is a whole different conversation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jadedsins

How I play still has massive amount of players. I still use them (for profits in trading.) and talk with them. Interact with them in the world and such. Lucky now most group content can be solo as well with Trusts. So the game even caters to my mindset and what I feel a mmorpg is.



I am sure we will not agree, but hey that is ok with me! lol.

---

That's honestly fine nothing wrong with playing the game you want to play it but respect the reality of the situation you're putting yourself in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

That comes off as dismissive, impatient, and accusatory, especially the "we'll wait for you" part.

---

I dont think it was rude. If you are looking to be offended then maybe but unless it was :

"Wow, you are terrible at healing. Havenʻt you even read your spell abilities? Go on then, read them. Weʻll wait for you while you waste our time."

that comes off as WAY more dismissive, impatient, and accusatory than what lezard posted

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JRat

I dont think it was rude. If you are looking to be offended then maybe but unless it was :

"Wow, you are terrible at healing. Havenʻt you even read your spell abilities? Go on then, read them. Weʻll wait for you while you waste our time."

that comes off as WAY more dismissive, impatient, and accusatory than what lezard posted

---

It's all based off interputation. What's offensive to you may not be to others and vice versa. End of the day if they took offense that's on them, all you can do is try to explain and clear up the misunderstanding if such devastation was not your intention.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jadedsins

My husband kinda went over this, but you could have whisper the person and ask would they like some advice. Trying to help someone can also make them feel bad for failing and being new. Being polite does not mean that whm has to listen to your advice.



Using a queue system to make a group for you right? So the cost of convenience is quality. A group failing or taking longer is not such a big deal in a game is it?

---

I assume you mean whisper them after the atrocity is over as you can't use the tell system mid dungeon queue iirc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JRat

I dont think it was rude. If you are looking to be offended then maybe but unless it was :

"Wow, you are terrible at healing. Havenʻt you even read your spell abilities? Go on then, read them. Weʻll wait for you while you waste our time."

that comes off as WAY more dismissive, impatient, and accusatory than what lezard posted

---

To be honest people that bad will not improve because you suddenly tell them what their skills do so I usually don't bother talking at all. However if you do want to give advice to people you should ask first for the best results:
"Do you mind if I give you a little advice?"

Last night I spend 1h in gubal library. 1st wipe was to no tank stance, 2nd wipe was to taking tank stance off, 3rd wipe was to final boss, 4th wipe was to final boss, 5th wipe was to final boss, 6th wipe was to final boss. Failing to stand on the pads to stop ad spawns, running around like chickens with their heads cut off like it was somehow going to stop the ads from hitting them and the tank was doing it as well.

Lovely time, After a brief explanation of how to stand on the pads and to not drop the red markers in the center of the arena or run through them didn't work I ended up just telling them to stand in anything that glows and we would be better for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nethereal

That's honestly fine nothing wrong with playing the game you want to play it but respect the reality of the situation you're putting yourself in.

---

I'm not sure what that means? The game is designed for what I want, and the rules are design and enforced where how I want to play and enjoy the game is acceptable to the developers of the game. The situation is great for players like me.

A bad player is fine in a mmo, and failed dungeons is ok as well. At the end of the day it is just a game, and progression is the only enjoyment you have in the game. Players like myself I can understand don't like, or want to group with, but I accept it, and these people views because I like my convenience of fast made groups.


Also, is it really going against the grain? I find that tons of people who play this game kinda has the mindset I do. I self improve all the time. I get better at playing the way I want and enjoy the game. When I play melee. I don't do positionals because that is not fun, and got enough on plate with rotation and dodging stuff. And will gladly do less dps for what is enjoyable to me. When I am force to group up and doing things slower bothers the people in the group...It is what it is. At times we can't come to agreement, and someone toes got to get stepped on. Just know that this is just one group one small part of the content in the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nethereal

I assume you mean whisper them after the atrocity is over as you can't use the tell system mid dungeon queue iirc.

---

Yup, that is also better because puts less pressure on person. Unless after the run is over the said player does not care about how the person plays because it does not bother you anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xia_Thas

It's all based off interputation. What's offensive to you may not be to others and vice versa. End of the day if they took offense that's on them, all you can do is try to explain and clear up the misunderstanding if such devastation was not your intention.

---

This is just another reason on why not to offer unsolicited advice. Just saying "Would you like some advice?" implies the player is doing something wrong, and a lot of people don't like that. They take that statement as passive-aggression, heck, a lot of times it is passive-aggression.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jadedsins

My husband kinda went over this, but you could have whisper the person and ask would they like some advice. Trying to help someone can also make them feel bad for failing and being new. Being polite does not mean that whm has to listen to your advice.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

If that's really how you put it, then it sounds like your phrasing could use some work. That comes off as dismissive, impatient, and accusatory, especially the "we'll wait for you" part. If you have experience in the class and want to offer to share that, then just explain that you are a fellow WHM and you have some tips that might make things easier if they're open to it. And if they say no, then that's that.

Another way to approach it is to not single any one person out but say something like "Team, I see we're having some problems. Would it help if we take a breather to assess and figure out what we can adjust?"

---

Valid points if we are talking level 50 content or below (specially for WHM since they gain a bulk of important skills around that level mark), or if we are talking about not proper ability usage.

Not so much when we are talking level 65 and 75 content respectively and not usage of half of your abilities at all. We are talking about going through 3/4 and 90% of the game without using 50% of your kit.

Players should not have to write formal proposals for assistance over stuff the game has already explained for over 64/74 levels bit by bit so you can get familiar with how each ability works and how to use them.

This is exactly the "enabling" OP was talking about.

I had a run, couple days ago in an extreme trial.

First clear bonus, macros played, positions chosen. No chatting.
Dancer proceeds to die to very first mechanic. Ok, she's new.
3 Wipes in dancer still dying to first mechanic. What the hell?
4th Attempt dancer dying to every mechanic leading upto, then dies at the quick time event.

Me: /straightface @dancer
Me: @dancer are you even trying?
Dancer: Shaddup

We Clear, She's dead obviously. Afterwards dancer messages me.

Dancer: insert excuses about being in a group with her FC ( it was finder must of not had full team), first time, new to the game, doesn't watch videos.
Me: were you playing with your eyes closed? you had ample opportunities to see the first mechanic.
Dancer: Insert swear words.

The dancer then proceed to go to limsa were I was, and shout how I'm a disgrace as mentor and toxic.
I reported her. lol.

6 other people in that trial remained silent, but its apparent this dancer was putting 0 effort. When she failed the quick time event on the 4th attempt was the straw that caused me to call her out.
Even if the other 6 people were her FC friends they should at least had help her with mechanics not just put up with her being dead weight it reinforces this kind of bad behavior.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jadedsins

I'm not sure what that means? The game is designed for what I want, and the rules are design and enforced where how I want to play and enjoy the game is acceptable to the developers of the game. The situation is great for players like me.

---

That it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jadedsins

A bad player is fine in a mmo, and failed dungeons is ok as well. At the end of the day it is just a game, and progression is the only enjoyment you have in the game. Players like myself I can understand don't like, or want to group with, but I accept it, and these people views because I like my convenience of fast made groups.

---

Bad players? Fine by me, not being able to complete a dungeon in the allotted amount of time? No. You shouldn't unironically fail something that requires the intelligence of a 5th grade, even if it does take you the entire duration of the dungeon.
Yes progression, is your self today better than your self yester day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jadedsins

Also, is it really going against the grain? I find that tons of people who play this game kinda has the mindset I do. I self improve all the time. I get better at playing the way I want and enjoy the game. When I play melee. I don't do positionals because that is not fun, and got enough on plate with rotation and dodging stuff. And will gladly do less dps for what is enjoyable to me.

---

You call self improvement getting better at making yourself have fun, nothing objective at all? Only subjective ideals at the cost of your fellow peers? Your mindset has stagnation by right of choice, you actively avoid improvement in favor of fun.
While it might look similar to your mindset some people just:
A. Aren't good enough for certain things no matter how hard they try.
B. Haven't reached the point where they want to improve yet.
C. Don't know how to improve.

They do not actively avoid objective self improvement in their daily life intentionally by not even attempting to get better by simply trying and failing to hit a melee positional.
If it's fine to fail a dungeon in your mind then it's fine to fail a few mechanics and die a little in favor of objective self improvement. Invest in your future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jadedsins

When I am force to group up and doing things slower bothers the people in the group...It is what it is. At times we can't come to agreement, and someone toes got to get stepped on. Just know that this is just one group one small part of the content in the game.

---

You're right it is what it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lezard21

Valid points if we are talking level 50 content or below (specially for WHM since they gain a bulk of important skills around that level mark), or if we are talking about not proper ability usage.

Not so much when we are talking level 65 and 75 content respectively and not usage of half of your abilities at all. We are talking about going through 3/4 and 90% of the game without using 50% of your kit.

Players should not have to write formal proposals for assistance over stuff the game has already explained for over 64/74 levels bit by bit so you can get familiar with how each ability works and how to use them.

This is exactly the "enabling" OP was talking about.

---

but again, you picked to use a tool that makes grouping with players easier. It does not matter what level said person is. If they don't want to use half of the skills they have. They have that right to do it with the settings the game provides, and the developers are ok with that.

You have tools in the game that lets you make your own groups, and set the rules you want and requirements needed for group.



The way I see queue up grouping systems is like a open market and the perks of building groups quickly comes at a heavy price at times. Progression to me is a perk, and I understand some people feel progression is fun and having someone slow it down can ruin his or her fun. It can't be helped and is the nature of mmos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jadedsins

but again, you picked to use a tool that makes grouping with players easier. It does not matter what level said person is. If they don't want to use half of the skills they have. They have that right to do it with the settings the game provides, and the developers are ok with that.

You have tools in the game that lets you make your own groups, and set the rules you want and requirements needed for group.



The way I see queue up grouping systems is like a open market and the perks of building groups quickly comes at a heavy price at times. Progression to me is a perk, and I understand some people feel progression is fun and having someone slow it down can ruin his or her fun. It can't be helped and is the nature of mmos.

---

Sure, but when people like that get removed without a reason then hopefully they do not act too surprised it happened.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

Sure, but when people like that get removed without a reason then hopefully they do not act too surprised it happened.

---

Correct! If other players in the group pick to remove you. Well in the right to do so. It works both ways, and the game sets up all the tools for it to happen. It just seems like most of the time the community leans toward being more understanding and people tend to defend players from being called out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jadedsins

Correct! If other players in the group pick to remove you. Well in the right to do so. It works both ways, and the game sets up all the tools for it to happen. It just seems like most of the time the community leans toward being more understanding and people tend to defend players from being called out.

---

Which baffles me. I get the idea behind wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt but I do not think removing people should be vilified as much as it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jadedsins

I'm not sure what that means? The game is designed for what I want, and the rules are design and enforced where how I want to play and enjoy the game is acceptable to the developers of the game. The situation is great for players like me.

A bad player is fine in a mmo, and failed dungeons is ok as well. At the end of the day it is just a game, and progression is the only enjoyment you have in the game. Players like myself I can understand don't like, or want to group with, but I accept it, and these people views because I like my convenience of fast made groups.


Also, is it really going against the grain? I find that tons of people who play this game kinda has the mindset I do. I self improve all the time. I get better at playing the way I want and enjoy the game. When I play melee. I don't do positionals because that is not fun, and got enough on plate with rotation and dodging stuff. And will gladly do less dps for what is enjoyable to me. When I am force to group up and doing things slower bothers the people in the group...It is what it is. At times we can't come to agreement, and someone toes got to get stepped on. Just know that this is just one group one small part of the content in the game.




Yup, that is also better because puts less pressure on person. Unless after the run is over the said player does not care about how the person plays because it does not bother you anymore.

---

1) Under technicality, if your choice of play means we can't complete the dungeon in 90 minutes of time because you are actively refusing to do your role, you are breaking the ToS yourself. "Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc" being the exact quote. By expressing through your refusal to play, if it ever caused the dungeon to be unclearable that is listed as prohibited. You're just lucky you're playing the least impacting dps.

2) On top of that, you don't play melee. I don't see why that's your example. Your only capped class is Dancer. You don't have to worry about positionals, but based on how you act, I get this feeling you don't dance either.

3) I don't know whether to be glad or not you're playing a dps instead of a tank or healer. At least when you're being dead weight since you admit to not wanting to play the least bit proper since you don't find it fun, as a dps people can just drag your corpse, but if you were a tank or healer at least something could get more clear as you'd get kicked so much more often.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jijifli

1) Under technicality, if your choice of play means we can't complete the dungeon in 90 minutes of time because you are actively refusing to do your role, you are breaking the ToS yourself. "Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc" being the exact quote. By expressing through your refusal to play, if it ever caused the dungeon to be unclearable that is listed as prohibited. You're just lucky you're playing the least impacting dps.

2) On top of that, you don't play melee. I don't see why that's your example. Your only capped class is Dancer. You don't have to worry about positionals, but based on how you act, I get this feeling you don't dance either.

3) I don't know whether to be glad or not you're playing a dps instead of a tank or healer. At least when you're being dead weight since you admit to not wanting to play the least bit proper since you don't find it fun, as a dps people can just drag your corpse, but if you were a tank or healer at least something could get more clear as you'd get kicked so much more often.

---

I said when I play it, does max level only thing that matter?

Also, how you are acting right now is the reason why we have rules in the game to protect players. I also use to be a healer, and it was ok. Like I said the content was design that I could heal how I wanted and we got job done. I just enjoy dancer right now.


Nothing in the TOS at all says that I got to play how you want, just because it takes longer. Your example is wrong. I am playing the best I can for how I want to play. If that is not good enough for you, or the group you can pick to vote kick me. Yet, that has hardly happen because most community understand this basic thing.


So are you really trying to twist the TOS to say that unless you play how I want you to play, that is breaking the rules? Oooh boy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

Which baffles me. I get the idea behind wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt but I do not think removing people should be vilified as much as it is.

---

People generally don't have a problem with kicking someone or getting kicked if it's agreed by the majority that they are not only a detriment but not worth any time investment at all or minor inconvenience.

"I don't use jobstones" "ok well that's just going to make this take way more time than any of us are willing to invest" (in so many words, probably something more like "I don't wanna" "k well.. bye".)

You however have presented playing off others tendencies and kicking at relatively negligible issues. Combining your particular take into what many might consider an abuse of the system for exceedingly selfish reasons. There's a large difference in many peoples minds between mutually agreeing to kick someone who is an obvious detriment to all and initiating a kick on minor things that bother you and taking advantage of the fact your friends in the party will go along with it as well as randoms who don't actually pay attention and either accidentally or dismissively agree to kick. Especially on a "contract" such as a DF party where you agreed to "help" others for a reward and are then cherry picking who you want to help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jadedsins

I said when I play it, does max level only thing that matter?

Also, how you are acting right now is the reason why we have rules in the game to protect players. I also use to be a healer, and it was ok. Like I said the content was design that I could heal how I wanted and we got job done. I just enjoy dancer right now.


Nothing in the TOS at all says that I got to play how you want, just because it takes longer. Your example is wrong. I am playing the best I can for how I want to play. If that is not good enough for you, or the group you can pick to vote kick me. Yet, that has hardly happen because most community understand this basic thing.


So are you really trying to twist the TOS to say that unless you play how I want you to play, that is breaking the rules? Oooh boy.

---

1) You have a level 15 pugilist who hasn't done a dungeon yet and a just unlocked SAM. You literally couldn't have done positionals yet.
2) I didn't say "Makes content take longer." After all, you said yourself with failed dungeons, no? If you're failing dungeons, something needs to be worked on, I promise.
3) Your only point to healing is you have a 45 white mage. Besides that I see can easily leveled up duo-class with smn, and a barely leveled up ast. And in those cases, healing in the game is so painfully overpowered anyways it's horribly hard to do incorrectly without plain going afk. Though I know people have found a way.
4) It's not the community "understands this basic thing." It's that a ton of them are perfectly acceptable of people not even playing at all, SPECIALLY if it's a dps. If I had a nickel for every time I've been kicked myself for not wanting the afk RDM who casted one impact to then do nothing for the rest of the pull or boss for the past 10 minutes, I'd have two nickels, which isn't much but it's weird that happened twice. Would you say I was wrong for wanting that dps to actually press anything at all? According to the community, I was, I should just deal with it.

... Oh, and 5) I'm not twisting it to say you gotta play how I play. Unless you wanna pick up a crafting tool, then I can show you how I play <3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jijifli

1) You have a level 15 pugilist who hasn't done a dungeon yet and a just unlocked SAM. You literally couldn't have done positionals yet.
2) I didn't say "Makes content take longer." After all, you said yourself with failed dungeons, no? If you're failing dungeons, something needs to be worked on, I promise.
3) Your only point to healing is you have a 45 white mage. Besides that I see can easily leveled up duo-class with smn, and a barely leveled up ast. And in those cases, healing in the game is so painfully overpowered anyways it's horribly hard to do incorrectly without plain going afk. Though I know people have found a way.
4) It's not the community "understands this basic thing." It's that a ton of them are perfectly acceptable of people not even playing at all, SPECIALLY if it's a dps. If I had a nickel for every time I've been kicked myself for not wanting the afk RDM who casted one impact to then do nothing for the rest of the pull or boss for the past 10 minutes, I'd have two nickels, which isn't much but it's weird that happened twice. Would you say I was wrong for wanting that dps to actually press anything at all? According to the community, I was, I should just deal with it.

... Oh, and 5) I'm not twisting it to say you gotta play how I play. Unless you wanna pick up a crafting tool, then I can show you how I play <3

---

You are correct! I'm saying that even if it require of me. I would not do it because I already know it is not fun. My husband is a sam main and he does it. So I know myself enough I would not.
Yup! During the times I played a healer it was pre hw and I think HW? Eh been awhile! Either way are you saying healers are so op now that skill is not required. So why did you use healers as an example...and go off and saying that I could get by playing healer. Very confusing.

I think you are mixing the point. It is ok for you to want to kick them, if other members of your party wants too as well. However, if the group does not. Making a big deal out of it, or trying to help said person when maybe they don't want it. It is not your place. Asking them in whispers after the run if you still want to help them is far far more acceptable...but do you really care how they play once you are done with the group? If you want to help someone only to get done with a dungeon faster. Masking that as a kindness I find silly, it is for yourself that you want to help person.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krotoan

People generally don't have a problem with kicking someone or getting kicked if it's agreed by the majority that they are not only a detriment but not worth any time investment at all or minor inconvenience.

"I don't use jobstones" "ok well that's just going to make this take way more time than any of us are willing to invest" (in so many words, probably something more like "I don't wanna" "k well.. bye".)

You however have presented playing off others tendencies and kicking at relatively negligible issues. Combining your particular take into what many might consider an abuse of the system for exceedingly selfish reasons. There's a large difference in many peoples minds between mutually agreeing to kick someone who is an obvious detriment to all and initiating a kick on minor things that bother you and taking advantage of the fact your friends in the party will go along with it as well as randoms who don't actually pay attention and either accidentally or dismissively agree to kick. Especially on a "contract" such as a DF party where you agreed to "help" others for a reward and are then cherry picking who you want to help.

---

The thing what one considers negligible may not be to another. As stated my stance is fairly simple if the majority of those able to vote to remove the player then the vote is valid. The reason behind it is moot in my opinion because the reason becomes a subjective standard. Though our vote kick system is far from perfect and some changes could be made but within the current system that is the only objective metric we have.

I get people being agaisnt my reasoning for the kick, and they can view me as an villain or an ass. Though I do not think the action itself is wrong or should be viewed as such. I do think it should be encouraged.

The other thing I am not a huge fan of implicit contracts. Which is what end stance boils down to regarding DF is an agreement to help others. Granted I have never read the text for the duty finder so it could not be implicit and just ignorance on my part. Though that creates other issues I have that would further derail the thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

The thing what one considers negligible may not be to another. As stated my stance is fairly simple if the majority of those able to vote to remove the player then the vote is valid. The reason behind it is moot in my opinion because the reason becomes a subjective standard. Though our vote kick system is far from perfect and some changes could be made but within the current system that is the only objective metric we have.

---

Yet I would hazard a large amount of the community seems to see your standard of "anything I don't like" as being incredibly unfair, especially while leveraging other "abuses" of the system like I mentioned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

I get people being agaisnt my reasoning for the kick, and they can view me as an villain or an ass. Though I do not think the action itself is wrong or should be viewed as such. I do think it should be encouraged.

---

The action itself is built into the game. It's not wrong. The reasoning behind it and how it's enacted being the important part. Encouraging silent votekicking perpetuates confusion and offers NO opportunity for growth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

The other thing I am not a huge fan of implicit contracts. Which is what end stance boils down to regarding DF is an agreement to help others. Granted I have never read the text for the duty finder so it could not be implicit and just ignorance on my part. Though that creates other issues I have that would further derail the thread.

---

Why does DF roulette exist? Why do people need to be ENCOURAGED to use it and complete whatever duty they get? Why is there a punishment for leaving once it's started? Why is the duty "Masked" during the acceptance popup?
answer those questions and you will understand what implicit contract you're entering by clicking "OK".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krotoan

Yet I would hazard a large amount of the community seems to see your standard of "anything I don't like" as being incredibly unfair, especially while leveraging other "abuses" of the system like I mentioned.


The action itself is built into the game. It's not wrong. The reasoning behind it and how it's enacted being the important part. Encouraging silent votekicking perpetuates confusion and offers NO opportunity for growth.





Why does DF roulette exist? Why do people need to be ENCOURAGED to use it and complete whatever duty they get? Why is there a punishment for leaving once it's started? Why is the duty "Masked" during the acceptance popup?
answer those questions and you will understand what implicit contract you're entering by clicking "OK".

---

Thing is I do not care that much for subjective standards such as fair or unfair. Since that will vary from person to person and in the grand scheme not of any use when it comes to my own enjoyment calculus.

Also yes the action is built into the game, and if reasoning is allowed either through inaction or enforcement or just accepted by those who control the system then once again the reasoning bares little importance within the system as a whole. As mentioned one can disagree with my use of the tool but the framing of trying to put ones own standards as a reason for why one should not do it at the very least appears to try and frame the action as inappropriate as a truth because the community at large disagrees.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

Thing is I do not care that much for subjective standards such as fair or unfair. Since that will vary from person to person and in the grand scheme not of any use when it comes to my own enjoyment calculus.

---

As you have said. I'm just trying to offer perspective from those who do. Fair and unfair are important to someone who experiences empathy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

Also yes the action is built into the game, and if reasoning is allowed either through inaction or enforcement or just accepted by those who control the system then once again the reasoning bares little importance within the system as a whole. As mentioned one can disagree with my use of the tool but the framing of trying to put ones own standards as a reason for why one should not do it at the very least appears to try and frame the action as inappropriate as a truth because the community at large disagrees.

---

Societal norms come about because of general consensus. In the FFXIV society you are an uncommon case. If everyone played and acted at your standard the game would be far more hostile to new players, less profitable as it would be casual unfriendly, and possibly would have crashed and burned (or at least been abandoned to obscurity) long ago.

So my opinion is that while you can survive and play while being of your particular stance, you are not "healthy" for the growth of this game and it's community and will be scorned for your lack of consideration of others.

Again, these things are important to most people.


In all honesty I have my doubts as to your actually holding the position you defend as it is, as I've put forward before, close to sociopathy, and true detachment from any empathy is rare for the human condition. Especially if you are interested in something like a JRPG where we are introduced to and expected to care about characters that aren't us. Yes you can play this game without paying any attention to that, but FFXIV does tend to lean heavily on that aspect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krotoan

As you have said. I'm just trying to offer perspective from those who do. Fair and unfair are important to someone who experiences empathy.



Societal norms come about because of general consensus. In the FFXIV society you are an uncommon case. If everyone played and acted at your standard the game would be far more hostile to new players, less profitable as it would be casual unfriendly, and possibly would have crashed and burned (or at least been abandoned to obscurity) long ago.

So my opinion is that while you can survive and play while being of your particular stance, you are not "healthy" for the growth of this game and it's community and will be scorned for your lack of consideration of others.

Again, these things are important to most people.


In all honesty I have my doubts as to your actually holding the position you defend as it is, as I've put forward before, close to sociopathy, and true detachment from any empathy is rare for the human condition. Especially if you are interested in something like a JRPG where we are introduced to and expected to care about characters that aren't us. Yes you can play this game without paying any attention to that, but FFXIV does tend to lean heavily on that aspect.

---

Dealing with Awha can be quite an experience. I can honestly say I have never met anyone quite like them, real world or otherwise. Good luck with that is all I can really say. Sometimes there are pleasant debates to be had. Sometimes there is...this, whatever it may be.