Healers need an overhaul

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

In my observation, about 90% of the posters on this forum is being forced to play the game at gun point. :D

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Indeed we are. In fact, don't you know, each time anyone who makes a post that disagrees with healing design , our sub goes up? How do you think this game keeps really keeps running, anyway?

smh

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Not anhaato, but



https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...9/OK_thumb.jpg


Yes, it is boring. Yes, I would prefer more DoTs, more things to track that are actually contributing to the party, etc etc. Cookie clicker gameplay is not fun, actually. Why don't healers need more buttons? Is there a justification for why every single healer in the game has this gameplay when previously they did not? Not a single job in any other role has this little to do in all content. This game isn't just solely raids, and even if it was - it isn't acceptable. If this is so fun, I really want tanks and DPS to all play like this. "b-but thats different" No it isn't. I fully support and endorse every tank and DPS job losing all of their ridiculously bloated buttons and I really hope they continue to do it. If it's good for us, it's good for you.


So we are in agreement then. Tanks and DPS need to lose their insane amounts of bloat. So many tanks and DPS players are unaware of even how to use said kit, so there's no point to it. If we have fun pressing 1-1-1-1, so will they.

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pretty much. bloat doesn't matter a class, any class, better or more fun. but too little buttons don't either. give healers some debuffs and buffs, less HEAL buttons. a more "true" support, so dps would be tertiary, healing primary, and other support secondary. which... can be accomplished without the big bloat. but hey, if people like 20-30 button rotations... have fun with the classes that offer that?

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

pretty much. bloat doesn't matter a class, any class, better or more fun. but too little buttons don't either. give healers some debuffs and buffs, less HEAL buttons. a more "true" support, so dps would be tertiary, healing primary, and other support secondary. which... can be accomplished without the big bloat. but hey, if people like 20-30 button rotations... have fun with the classes that offer that?

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Nobody is asking for 20-30 button rotations on healers, we're asking for things to do that are more than the 1-1-1-1 spam. The DPS buttons we had in the past are the easiest way to accomplish that because the icons, abilities, animations, etc are all in the game. SE could restore them in 6.18 if they wanted to, not that they will. Comparatively, reworking the system to give us more to do that isn't DPS related but is support would be harder and is less realistic. I'm not against that though - if I did not want to heal I would not play a healer. I'm not here for "Green DPS", which is why I'm so frustrated by the fact that the amazing gameplay improvements I have to work on are just spamming Broil more and healing less. But I do it because I know that DPSing helps the team and it is also required, which is why it should be more engaging. There's no excuse.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Nobody is asking for 20-30 button rotations on healers, we're asking for things to do that are more than the 1-1-1-1 spam.

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Map it to a different button if you don't like the 1-1-1-1. Mine is mapped to #4. Better, map the same skill to 4 different button, than you can 1-2-3-4, almost like a tank.

the problem with healers isnt the lack of dps, but the lack of a need for there even being a healer. healers are meant to heal, its in the name, and most content is way too easy to clear without a healer. what really needs an overhaul is the content itself to give a point to healers. and the problem with that is that this is a story game before an mmo, that very thing is what stunts the game from being a much better mmo. it needs to balance classes to clear msq content with all of them, and can't focus on them individually, nurturing each class into what it can truly be

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Map it to a different button if you don't like the 1-1-1-1. Mine is mapped to #4. Better, map the same skill to 4 different button, than you can 1-2-3-4, almost like a tank.

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You people are completely incapable of formulating an argument without being purposefully obtuse. I have not seen one take from any anti-healer-rotation person in here that didn't boil down to intellectual dishonesty.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

You people are completely incapable of formulating an argument without being purposefully obtuse. I have not seen one take from any anti-healer-rotation person in here that didn't boil down to intellectual dishonesty.

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I'm sorry I forgot to include the /s.

And after 5 pages of full on serious debate with various people for 2 whole days, here I thought I'm allowed to make an honest joke. If you want some with intellectual honesty, I recommend go back the last 5 page. Of course, whether you will recognize any opinion that not align with yours as intellectual or honest is a very different matter. I don't know how well I did on the intellectual part, but at least I can assure you about the honesty whether you gonna perceive them as such or not.

The post you just quote was a total **** post though. I just thought it was silly enough that most "honest" people would recognize it as such without me spelling that out.

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Originally Posted by elliexer

the problem with healers isnt the lack of dps, but the lack of a need for there even being a healer. healers are meant to heal, its in the name, and most content is way too easy to clear without a healer. what really needs an overhaul is the content itself to give a point to healers. and the problem with that is that this is a story game before an mmo, that very thing is what stunts the game from being a much better mmo. it needs to balance classes to clear msq content with all of them, and can't focus on them individually, nurturing each class into what it can truly be

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I agree, and while the notion had repeatedly shot down by the pro-DPS people, I think eventually the pro-healing side will prevail. As note, healer DPS is already at the point where it's not a surprise to see they are able to out-DPS a bad DPS, and even more common for a high-output healer to outDPS even an average tank. If the healer DPS is pushed any further than this, it'll cross the point of healer will become a DPS in anything but name.

FF14 is still branched as an MMO based on the holy trinity, and there is only so far they can skirt it until it's necessary to rebranch. The reason I bring up this point because you can easily see how new players to this game still act like traditional healers. Most sprouts I ran into during lvling roullete only heal, and that's not because they're bad. A heavier DPS focus at end game will simply create an a downward pressure on this, and beyond this the game will need to reconsider re-branching the system.

Also while they have never promised about making healer DPS more interesting and in fact, consistently removing DPS option. While at the same time, had consistently promise to make healing become more of a focus. Granted, they have not made good of those promise, but at least they are indicator of where the dev's intention are. So have faith, at least I'll hold onto mine ... for now.

The most noticeable change in this expansion is the deliberate separation of the DPS and healing channel, with SGE being the prime example. Basically for the most part, even a greedy healer can still heal while DPS without stripping on their healing responsibility. In fact, SGE is designed to encourage ... no, require the healer to heal in order to keep up their DPS - somewhat similar to the 5.0 Blood Lily, except done in much better way. So it's clear there are a new direction they're taking healer. To where, we don't know yet. But at least, encourage healer to do more healing (instead of feeling they're being punished whenever they heal) is still a step in the right direction.

Here is what really hurts it for me. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5876045

The fights are scripted to the e basically. Not just in the timeline where these fights never deviate at all from the script but the damage is scripted too. If a move does around 30k, it's always dealing around 30k before debuffs and mitigations come into effect. It's how I've been able to heal p1s and p2s without ever using a single gcd heal in their whole time until mistakes happen.

Thus they really can't make it too healing intensive without ever going away from scripted fights.

Also hgealer dps will still be every much a thing. Look at Nidhogg part 1 in DSR. If a healer ever does more than 3 healing gcds, they run the very real risk of hitting that enrage right there.

Edit: THe other issue is that they've really constraint themselves with two more facets of healing. The first comes from the mizzteq interview where Yoshi-P stated https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAbCjPPS1RQ&t=365s They don't want the damage to be high to where only high skill people can do and they don't want them to manage mp constantly. THen you have the mister happy interview where he says how Naoki understands that Veterans would like more attack buttons but again he doesn't want to overwhlem new players.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

The most noticeable change in this expansion is the deliberate separation of the DPS and healing channel, with SGE being the prime example. Basically for the most part, even a greedy healer can still heal while DPS without stripping on their healing responsibility. In fact, SGE is designed to encourage ... no, require the healer to heal in order to keep up their DPS - somewhat similar to the 5.0 Blood Lily, except done in much better way. So it's clear there are a new direction they're taking healer. To where, we don't know yet. But at least, encourage healer to do more healing (instead of feeling they're being punished whenever they heal) is still a step in the right direction.

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This right here is all the proof anyone needs to show how wrong you are. SGE doesn't play any differently than any of the other healers. It's not required to Heal to keep up its DPS any more than any of the other healers are. It's in the exact same ballpark as WHM in terms of needing to use their Lillies to sustain because its MP economy is entirely locked behind Addersgal abilities which only enforces overhealing instead of smart healing and if that's the design that SE is going for, Healers are in an even worst position for it.

Addersgall is funny because it rewards you for being worse at the game. It's basically SGE's freecure. It has faint traces of something that resembles good and engaging design, but falls massively short of actually achieving that.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Addersgall is funny because it rewards you for being worse at the game. It's basically SGE's freecure. It has faint traces of something that resembles good and engaging design, but falls massively short of actually achieving that.

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well it's like i suggested eukrasia should've been a passive that only activates after toxicon or addersgall uses and make it augment more than THREE GCDs maybe some oGCDs and stackable GCDs like phlegma so you actually have more thought put into it

*Overhauls healer design to make healers heal more*
*Also: makes very little to no change in encounter design (and by proxy, healing requirement remains stagnant) because reasons*

It’s either one of the two—it has to change. Both of them would be awesome but I’d keep my expectation dirt low. They already mentioned not wanting to change the latter.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Addersgall is funny because it rewards you for being worse at the game. It's basically SGE's freecure. It has faint traces of something that resembles good and engaging design, but falls massively short of actually achieving that.

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I personally hated it. Not only it copy paste almost everything from SCH’s arsenal, they’re apparently holding some of your MP on hostage by encouraging you to throw out heals like candies even when there isn’t any useful healing required (looking at you Druocholes at tanks during raids). Oh how inspiring..

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

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And this is to show you don't really care about your healing at all.

- It does not tie to a DPS trade off, you're not punished for not using it. Comparing to WHM Arssize or Lily or SCH's stack. It is an infinitely better designed. Assume you're not the type who dump every single damn heal on your co, it's possible to match Addesgal for meaningful heal for the mechanic instead of needlessly rush dump it. The MP economy of SGE while need you to use it, it does not require you to rush it on cooldown but use them as need, as long as you use them. Your post is clearly show you don't have the mentality of a healer and only think about DPS optimization.

The only place where it becomes an overheal is 24, but that has nothing to with the healer design, it's just the 24 faceroll nature.

- Another example is SGE great design is the fact their Pneuma is a DPS neutral ability. It is the SGE biggest heal, and they have the luxury of only use it when they need the heal without losing their DPS unless they want to pad an AOE, which only happen during the blackfire phase in P3S. Again, this is an infinitely better design than WHM's system where you're force to make choice between DPS or heal.

The chronic issue of FF14 is there are not a lot of thing to be heal. Overhealing is itself not a problem given how powerful the healing kits and how many oGCD healers have comparing to the pitiful amount of damage taken. The real question has always been do those heal go out at the right time? And in the case of WHM - no they don't more than half of the time. Arsize going out at the same time of a needed heal? That's a happy coincidence, not deliberate because that shit needs to be burn on cooldown. And why do you think they finally make Misery DPS neutral (hey, just like the SGE kit) instead of a DPS loss? It finally dawn on SE that the best way to deal with greedy healer is to create DPS neutral healing style, and which job you think lead the charge on that? SGE is their eureka moment.

The issue with even greedy healer is not just the amount they heal, it's when they heal it. Before their current iteration the issue with WHM is they have both low HPS but at the same time they also have crap ton of overheal because alot dump their heal when not needed to in exchange for DPS optimization. SGE's design addressed both of that problems. If you say WHM is the same SGE then you have some serious foundational understanding and can not look at thing above face value.

SGE is great because even in the hand of a Greedy/Newbie healer, it still creates minimum pressure toward the co-healer, while a greedy (old)WHM is a mega pain in the arse It wasn't designed for healer like you, it's a job design to create more healthy grouping environment, and it accomplishes that goal splendily. There is no healer I want to be grouped up in PF with more than an SGE. But then, I don't expect you to understand my point because like I said, I geared my argument toward healing, yours are geared toward DPSing. We don't think on the same wavelenght.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

I'm sorry I forgot to include the /s.
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I agree, and while the notion had repeatedly shot down by the pro-DPS people, I think eventually the pro-healing side will prevail. As note, healer DPS is already at the point where it's not a surprise to see they are able to out-DPS a bad DPS, and even more common for a high-output healer to outDPS even an average tank. If the healer DPS is pushed any further than this, it'll cross the point of healer will become a DPS in anything but name.

Also while they have never promised about making healer DPS more interesting and in fact, consistently removing DPS option. While at the same time, had consistently promise to make healing become more of a focus. Granted, they have not made good of those promise, but at least they are indicator of where the dev's intention are. So have faith, at least I'll hold onto mine ... for now.
The most noticeable change in this expansion is the deliberate separation of the DPS and healing channel, with SGE being the prime example. Basically for the most part, even a greedy healer can still heal while DPS without stripping on their healing responsibility. In fact, SGE is designed to encourage ... no, require the healer to heal in order to keep up their DPS - somewhat similar to the 5.0 Blood Lily, except done in much better way. So it's clear there are a new direction they're taking healer. To where, we don't know yet. But at least, encourage healer to do more healing (instead of feeling they're being punished whenever they heal) is still a step in the right direction.

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So based upon your comment this is how an imaginary discussion would look like, or part of one would have looked like:

Hey guys, we can't affect any changes to job "a" because :
if job "b" cannot hit their buttons it makes them look bad. Goodness, can't have it seem like a more skilled player would make someone who makes no effort want to learn how to play their class.
I am concerned that unlike all of the other jobs, job "a" is unable to make decisions on when to use its skills. ! Well, it's interesting that it isn't applied to other jobs. What makes everyone who plays job "a" incapable of decision making? Can't overload them! Let's just assume that they can't!

I also find it interesting that you are now putting people into "pro-DPS" and "pro-healing" camps. Where did this even come from? The vast majority of healer mains do both.

Your statement about Sage is also very, very strange. In order heal, sage needs to DPS effectively, Not heal in order to keep up their DPS. It wouldn't even make sense to do it the other way around- what do you do when someone is at full health- where would your damage come from- could you explain that?

Correction not the "pro-DPS" camp. The "greedy healer" camp.
And there's is totally no hidden message in that particular choice of words.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

And this is to show you don't really care about your healing at all.
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Hmmm, not sure but SGE works like the other healer's. Only skill diffrent is Kardia and this one is not really strong or interactive. It's "fire andd forget" and has the annyoing part of that you need to switch fairly often the target or you overheal. Furthermore is the heal recieved from Kardia not strong. Only enough to outheal autoattacks, depending on the boss. So Kardia is not really that "Wow" or "special".

Your take on "greedy healer" or "newbies" is something i cant follow. Also your point about HPS is weird but hey "Forum hot takes" are the new cool.

A couple of questions:
Aszize is bad ? Why ?
SCH is weird and plays boring but weak ? Or did i missunderstood you ?
Lily's are DPS neutral now, did you talk about the old WHM ?

SGE and WHM is very similar and here is why:
Both use their damage reduction spells to reduce tb or AOE damage. Both use their OGCD to heal and DPS. I am honest here i played hippo Savage as SGE and WHM and both times i did not hard cast heals (exception as SGE i used the moment hippo jumps and cant be targeted to refill stacks for DPS movement). Lets be honest nobody did hard cast any heals and i am not that good or special.

The way how SE rewards only DPS and not healing results in the following = healing is binary = enough or not. That's it. And for this rerason give us a DPS rotation.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

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Tying your MP to a mechanic that is, by its very nature, finite in usefulness is bad design. It is entirely possible for a SGE to sit on 3 Addersgal for long periods of time due to long periods of no healing even being required so unless you're using your Addersgal to overheal, you're just screwed. It has NOTHING to do with DPS optimization and everything to do with how shit the design actually is. And SGE DOES have a DPS trade off in the form of Toxicon so you're STILL wrong.

All your post does is showcase how terrible Healer Design is and fails to prove your point at all.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

It finally dawn on SE that the best way to deal with greedy healer is to create DPS neutral healing style[/b], and which job you think lead the charge on that? SGE is their eureka moment.

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This should be a very very bad thing if it took them this long to do. Hilariously, they could have done this back in Shadowbringers with both White Mage and Scholar by giving them the weave windows they have now, DPS neutral Misery, and hell, even removing Energy Drain and just making Aetherflow grant more MP/fey gauge if you had stacks when you pressed it again. Not that I would've liked that Aetherflow change, but the point being they could've done it and replaced Energy Drain with Shadow Flare or Miasma for SCH's "extra DPS button" and making sure SCH didn't sacrifice DPS to heal.

So why did it take them over 3 years to realize "hmm maybe Scholar and White Mage should have the ability to weave heals freely like AST does" instead of them realizing that right at Shadowbringers launch or at any point during Shadowbringers? This is another huge issue that healer mains have; this imaginary fantasyland where the developers "have a vision for healers" is pure cope. They do not and the way these jobs are treated over DPS jobs or tanks when it comes to changes shows this. Weave windows should not have been the "major expansion change shakeup!" they tried acting like it was, especially when AST got its weave window change in the middle of Stormblood - it should have happened in Shadowbringers. It should not have taken until 6.1 for Misery to become DPS neutral when people were asking for that for the entirety of Shadowbringers. If they didn't like Energy Drain being the priority for Aetherflow, they should not have changed it from a 10 potency gain at the end of ShB to a 100 potency gain in EW. SGE is not a "eureka moment" for SE. SGE is SE throwing their hands up and admitting they do not know how to design jobs in this role for how the game fundamentally wants healers to perform.

I don't even know why "pro-healing" vs "pro-dpsing" is even a thing when they're both two sides of the coin that you have to balance.
You don't get to just heal and only heal anymore, and you actually have to interrupt your dps in order to heal at times. That's just how the role works.

Even in old "classic" MMOs, healers wouldn't be healing all the time either. They just stare at the screen for 30 seconds, and just afk until someone takes damage, and then they heal back up.
Healing right now is basically the same thing, except instead of actually afking, you actually play the game and contribute to the team by doing the only you thing you can do, dps.

Literally the only difference is if you should dps within that downtime where people aren't taking damage. That's it. That's literally what most "heal only" healers are complaining about.
"HOW DARE THEY ASK ME TO PLAY THE VIDEO GAME INSTEAD OF SPAMMING CURE 1 HURR DURR"

Even if Square Enix adds actual unpredictable damage to content, people are still gonna dps, because there's going to be windows of opportunity where everyone's topped, and there's 5 seconds before the next damage instance will come out, and that's an extra dps spell. You will never eliminate dpsing from the role because dps IS downtime.

Even WoW, with lower healing potencies, lower healer damage potencies, a lot less mitigation for tanks in general, and a lot more outgoing damage in raids and Mythic +, I still dps as a healer, because there is still downtime in content. There will always be downtime in content. Hell, one of the healers actually need to dps to heal everyone back up (Disc Priest).

So why not make give healers that WANT to make that downtime interesting, the tools to make it interesting?
Giving healers more dps buttons to push isn't going to harm you folks who like staring at hp bars and casting a heal every 15 seconds. It's not gonna lower the skill floor at all. Healing will still be the accessible, easy role it is right now, and the casual content is still not gonna have tight dps checks, so you guys won't be affected by the extra dps buttons. Feel free to press Cure 1 to your heart's content.

What it will do is raise the skill ceiling, give the healers more room for skill expression and that's what's sorely needed in the game right now.

For people like us, healing someone is just the base thing you do, just like dribbling in basketball.
I understand that for newer healers that healing a tank wall to wall is satisfying, the same way you first learned how to dribble the ball on the court.

But we need room for us to express our creativity in dribbling the ball. In shooting the ball. In carrying the ball and passing the ball. In defending the ball.
More dps options will give healers that needed factor in the job design, one that's sorely needed for almost every role in the game right now.

Us breaking ankles on the court is not gonna affect you people who like to only dribble. Have fun with dribbling! That's okay! You're not going to be forced to do more than dribble the ball if that's where your satisfaction lies. You shouldn't be!
But don't stop us from trying to do tricks on the court, cause that's our fun. Us doing these tricks won't stop you from just dribbling the ball, so don't stop ours.

Needlessly said, healers in this game has been a hot topic.

The irony is that in any game with "healers", 9/10 they have dps buttons and are meant to balance both.

The double standard of "you should only heal because you're a healer"–you can literally do both. No buts, no ifs, no whats. If there is a timer (enrage, then you need to put in dps as a healer. Point blank.

In nearly every game I've played, healers are chosen/picked for either CC, buffs, debuffs or strong enough to solo heal and even then, you're still contributing when no healing is required.

Healers have been asked to be overhauled for years and the devs are at a crossroads, embrace the green dps that their combat design corners the healer design into or alienate the playerbase even more. No one is happy with the state of healers.

1. It's boring because there's no real depth pass AST (and even then they dumbed down cards). No one sticks around because it's way too easy. What dps would want to cross over and spam one button for dps?

2. They refuse to expand on their dps kits because that would prove the heal-only purists wrong and cause even more drama. Nor do they want to admit that they've pretty much ignored healers in favor of dps–the majority of their playerbase.

3. Healers have to compete with each other because there's no utility pass a two minute buff and some cards ala AST.

And really a lot of their issues boil down to the fact that the combat design they've curated over the years has no more depth other than 2min buffs and dps enrage.

They got rid of aggro management, weapon resistances, role to job flavored skills. Everything feels samey and the irony is that people are only realizing that the devs have zero creative energy anymore because they're starting to show in their dps changes. Sad because tanks and healers have long been told to shut up and deal with it but when their precious jobs get the dumb down hammer, it's war.

Interested in seeing how the devs will handle this. Will they finally hire new creative blood or continue to hurt the playerbase with their lack of communication and fear of experimentation.

Healing in XIV is pretty much a fake role that could be nigh effortlessly replaced with a handful of role actions and buffing personals.

In doing so, the game would likely become more accessible and have more depth, so not only is the healing role phony the mere presence of it is possibly a detriment.

This is the only MMO I've ever played that I don't main healer in. It is the single worst part of this game and it borders on the incredulous how the developers are OK with slop design like this.

I wouldn't be shocked if a segment of the community turned on the game a bit if 7.0 doesn't at least try to move a few mountains. I love the thing but at some point the sweeping of huge and obvious problems gets tiring.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

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The thing is, you're making these huge sweeping statements but the whole thing completely falls apart at the feet of a simple question.

What am I supposed keep myself busy with in something like a fairly smooth Aglaia run?

We used to have a powerful set of debuff tools = all gone.

We used to have to hardcast our mitigation on the GCD = all gone.

oGCD twitch healing was a highly limited and valuable resource = all gone.

We used to have to watch our agro closely = all gone.

Remember when bosses frequently had agro resets or dangerous adds with clean agro tables? = all gone.

Remember when we had to watch our MP closely? = all gone.

Remember when we had to keep track of multiple dots on different timers? = all gone.

Remember when bosses had often had tank busters on fast cooldowns that didn't have a 5 second cast bar cue? = all gone.

I was the champ of 'Sylphies' back in the likes of Gordias, Midas and Creator.

I want to be healing, I want to be buffing, I want to be debuffing, I want to be the support superstar but the game just doesn't offer any room to do that anymore. Instead I'm another 'greedy green dps' because that's the only way in which I can help improve my party now. Sure, Savage gives me a little more room to play it safe and I'm fortunate enough to have been able to land particularly chad co healers over the years, but in casual content even that doesn't work. There's just not enough to heal and nothing else to do beyond that and spamming Glare.

If I actually wanted that I'd go play Cookie Clicker.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

2. They refuse to expand on their dps kits because that would prove the heal-only purists wrong and cause even more drama. Nor do they want to admit that they've pretty much ignored healers in favor of dps–the majority of their playerbase.

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It's strange to me that SGE wasn't used as a testing mechanism to see how players would respond to a healer with an actual dps rotation - my guess is it would be very popular if it did have this. Instead, it's pretty much the same as the rest.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

It's strange to me that SGE wasn't used as a testing mechanism to see how players would respond to a healer with an actual dps rotation - my guess is it would be very popular if it did have this. Instead, it's pretty much the same as the rest.

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I think the overhead for the development team knows what they want, something that already "works".

I think the devs have gotten lazy, they only have 4(?) people developing and balancing all these jobs and none of them main/play healer and they've shown consistently that they don't understand how healers in this game function/play.
I also think the feedback is curated not only from outside sources but inside sources probably censor themselves as well.

The dev team has simply gotten lazy imo or overworked. They simply refuse to hire more staff to get the job done.
There are far too many examples:

•Going Blade having more initial dps(390) than Rage of Halone(330) from level 54 to until you got Royal Authority at level 60(420)
•Aero 2(60, 30s, 200mp) simply being a better Dia(60, 30s, 400mp)
•Medica 2(1000) heals more than cure 2(800) on a single target
•Blood Lily(1,240) is a straight dps gain from Glare(290) below level 82
•The fact macrocosmos interacted the way it did with the kill mechanic in p3s(It was a dev oversight don't pretend they actually know what they're doing)
•Warriors get access to Surging Tempest through Mythril Tempest at level 40 despite it being designed to be accessed at level 50(never addressed, just another dev oversight)

There are probably a few more I missed but put simply nobody being paid to run this game is producing A+ Quality anymore. When was the last time we even had a new event that wasn't recycled?

I said it in another post:

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Sage was just a developer "f*ck you." to the community, specifically the healer community because they begrudgingly had to give SCH Energy Drain back after they took it away.

So they just copied SCH without Energy Drain, did a few touch ups and released it as a new healer, 2 birds 1 stone. They even advertised it as the "dps healer" for that chef's kiss.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

It's strange to me that SGE wasn't used as a testing mechanism to see how players would respond to a healer with an actual dps rotation - my guess is it would be very popular if it did have this. Instead, it's pretty much the same as the rest.

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This should be printed out and stuck to Yoshida's door. DNC was a missed opportunity too. Yoshida's team need to take a long hard look at the healer experience in this game top to bottom and I can only see threads like these continuing to get louder and louder until something changes. The problem is.....

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

I think the devs have gotten lazy, they only have 4(?) people developing and balancing all these jobs and none of them main/play healer and they've shown consistently that they don't understand how healers in this game function/play.

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It's more the second IMO. As I detailed here, I don't think Sato's team has forgotten what made ARR's WHM and SCH gel together so well, but rather the game has just gotten too complex for them to devote sufficient time to the role. Calling them lazy is unfair imo, they are anything but to manage as long as they have with the increases in job count, complexity and player demands over the years. I'm not sure if the blame is with Yoshida stubbornly believing they are still up to the task or if SE's finance and HR aren't willing to let him spend the sort of money required to fix it, but it's almost certainly one of those two things that's ultimately to blame for this situation now.

I'm also more inclined to think they're overworked.

It's so common in companies to simply not hire more people to develop a better product because overworking staff and producing B tier or C tier product is good enough already.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

•Going Blade having more initial dps(390) than Rage of Halone(330) from level 54 to until you got Royal Authority at level 60(420)
•Aero 2(60, 30s, 200mp) simply being a better Dia(60, 30s, 400mp)
•Medica 2(1000) heals more than cure 2(800) on a single target
•Blood Lily(1,240) is a straight dps gain from Glare(290) below level 82
•The fact macrocosmos interacted the way it did with the kill mechanic in p3s(It was a dev oversight don't pretend they actually know what they're doing)
•Warriors get access to Surging Tempest through Mythril Tempest at level 40 despite it being designed to be accessed at level 50(never addressed, just another dev oversight)

There are probably a few more I missed but put simply nobody being paid to run this game is producing A+ Quality anymore. When was the last time we even had a new event that wasn't recycled?

I said it in another post:

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Some of the names were just weird as well. Glare to Glare 3, Holy to Holy 3. I thought these were just media tour errors but... nope.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Remember when we had to watch our MP closely? = all gone.

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Hey now, Sage can run into some MP issues if they're not dumping Addersgall on useless heals to get back that MP.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Sage was just a developer "f*ck you." to the community, specifically the healer community because they begrudgingly had to give SCH Energy Drain back after they took it away.

So they just copied SCH without Energy Drain, did a few touch ups and released it as a new healer, 2 birds 1 stone. They even advertised it as the "dps healer" for that chef's kiss.

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100% correct.

Sage's Kardia / Kardion system is nothing more that what the old Embrace Macros used to do. Force a heal on a DPS spell.

All the abilities with the extra + healing or + mitigation is nothing more than a replacement for the fairy.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Some of the names were just weird as well. Glare to Glare 3, Holy to Holy 3. I thought these were just media tour errors but... nope.

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Glare 2 and Holy 2 were the combo actions planned for healer but Yoshi P wanted more dev focus on his favorite job, so WHM didn't get them added in.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

You know the meme about people people reading only the headline and go ballistic without a glance at the article itself. It's similar to that here, even worse actually because it would like you only read half of the headline. Because if the very same sentence I mentioned that "chad" healer, I also said:



Not only that, I had repeatably stated my opinion is form from long and frequent history with PF. So either you are just being extreme selective and cherry picking just to dismiss my opinion, or just are not even put in the afford to have an argument in good faith.

So ... please put in more effort? :)

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Sylphies don't have "good faith" arguments. There's a bog standard list they pick from, and the only variation is in the wording. Said list is very, very rarely updated.

1) Healers should HEAL ONLY! It's in the name!
2) Complexity is SCARY, you're just a mean gatekeeper who hates new healers!
3) If you want to deal damage go play a DPS! Unless you fixate all of your attention on the healing side of the kit, you're not a *~real healer~*
4) I watched someone casting Stone while I died once, therefore healers shouldn't be allowed to do anything but healing spells and /dance emotes! Being allowed to make mistakes harms the community, so it NEEDS to be foolproof!
5) I'm the best healer I know because I HEAL unlike those dirty DPS healers I see casting damage spells. They aren't even touching Medica 2! I'm clearly doing all of the healing in an instance. *I'm* the one who knows what I'm talking about.

I have said it once and I'll say it again... long rotation doesn't = riveting gameplay. if you like the busywork of pressing buttons that don't build up to anything, have fun with that on some other class. healers, in their kit, have what they need tp unfortunately be a top dps as well as what should be, not even sure why this is debatable, their primary goal... healing.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

I have said it once and I'll say it again... long rotation doesn't = riveting gameplay. if you like the busywork of pressing buttons that don't build up to anything, have fun with that on some other class. healers, in their kit, have what they need tp unfortunately be a top dps as well as what should be, not even sure why this is debatable, their primary goal... healing.

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Geniuses clearly state that the primary goal of this god awful role is "...healing" when our primary button casted is Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis in EVERY ENCOUNTER IN THE GAME. I wish I could live in the parallel reality that they do, this role must be very engaging and very fun and not at all boring as shit.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Geniuses clearly state that the primary goal of this god awful role is "...healing" when our primary button casted is Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis in EVERY ENCOUNTER IN THE GAME. I wish I could live in the parallel reality that they do, this role must be very engaging and very fun and not at all boring as shit.

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if done right, it is fu and engaging. it isn't done right here. they're called healers, so that is what their primary goal is (not primary button pressed). in a perfect world more healing would be required than basicallyy dps. but as it stands, its dps in all but name with fight reactionary instead of a typical rotation, and 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 pressing too, more or less.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

if done right, it is fu and engaging. it isn't done right here. they're called healers, so that is what their primary goal is (not primary button pressed). in a perfect world more healing would be required than basicallyy dps. but as it stands, its dps in all but name with fight reactionary instead of a typical rotation, and 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 pressing too, more or less.

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What argument or point are you even making then? Are you agreeing with someone or disagreeing? Of course healing could be fun and engaging, that's our issue with it? They've already said many times that they are not increasing healing requirements. They have said that E12S was the top limits of what they feel healing requirements will ever be in FFXIV. They continue to make these fights have us casting 1 button more and healing less. If they have already stated that they will not be making us actual healers, then the logical conclusion is to make the DPS ""downtime"" that encompasses a majority of our casts in every encounter in this game more interesting than 1-1-1-1. And EVEN IF they actually decided to finally make us have to manage healing more than we're pressing 1 button, this won't change previous encounters at all. Do you honestly believe it is realistic that they are capable of changing encounter design entirely when they're clearly happy with it and it works for tanks and DPS? Or does it seem more realistic that they just give us a few more things to manage that we had in the past, whatever they choose, and to call it a day there?

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

I have said it once and I'll say it again... long rotation doesn't = riveting gameplay. if you like the busywork of pressing buttons that don't build up to anything, have fun with that on some other class. healers, in their kit, have what they need tp unfortunately be a top dps as well as what should be, not even sure why this is debatable, their primary goal... healing.

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Spamming 1 button while rotating thru our overbloated oGCD healing toolkits isn't riveting gameplay either. Literally, in all content in this game, even the hardest content in the game, as a Healer, you spend the majority of your GCD using 1 button. Healers spam their filler DPS button more than a Tank Autoattacks for crying out loud. There is no reason whatsoever for the gameplay to be so shallow other than pure incompetence by the developers and considering that NONE of them actually play healers at all, it's clear they have no idea what they're doing with the role at all.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Sylphies don't have "good faith" arguments. There's a bog standard list they pick from, and the only variation is in the wording. Said list is very, very rarely updated.

1) Healers should HEAL ONLY! It's in the name!
2) Complexity is SCARY, you're just a mean gatekeeper who hates new healers!
3) If you want to deal damage go play a DPS! Unless you fixate all of your attention on the healing side of the kit, you're not a *~real healer~*
4) I watched someone casting Stone while I died once, therefore healers shouldn't be allowed to do anything but healing spells and /dance emotes! Being allowed to make mistakes harms the community, so it NEEDS to be foolproof!
5) I'm the best healer I know because I HEAL unlike those dirty DPS healers I see casting damage spells. They aren't even touching Medica 2! I'm clearly doing all of the healing in an instance. *I'm* the one who knows what I'm talking about.

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its even better when you realize 1, 3 and 5 are the same arugment, and 2 and 4 are also the same.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

What argument or point are you even making then? Are you agreeing with someone or disagreeing? Of course healing could be fun and engaging, that's our issue with it? They've already said many times that they are not increasing healing requirements. They have said that E12S was the top limits of what they feel healing requirements will ever be in FFXIV. They continue to make these fights have us casting 1 button more and healing less. If they have already stated that they will not be making us actual healers, then the logical conclusion is to make the DPS ""downtime"" that encompasses a majority of our casts in every encounter in this game more interesting than 1-1-1-1. And EVEN IF they actually decided to finally make us have to manage healing more than we're pressing 1 button, this won't change previous encounters at all. Do you honestly believe it is realistic that they are capable of changing encounter design entirely when they're clearly happy with it and it works for tanks and DPS? Or does it seem more realistic that they just give us a few more things to manage that we had in the past, whatever they choose, and to call it a day there?

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my point is and remains a healer's primary goal is to heal. putting dps at the same level of importance or above it is just nonsense. they can fix the 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 spam without making it a dps in all but name. they can lean more towards support. buffs, debuffs, dots, sage has this, but shielding as well. the only way to fix that isn't making it a dps. if you think it is you need to look back, rather carefully, at what the game already has and all of the viable options that would solve this problem irrelevant of what the devs will do, since we all know they won't be doing anything healers actually want for the foreseeable future.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

my point is and remains a healer's primary goal is to heal. putting dps at the same level of importance or above it is just nonsense. they can fix the 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 spam without making it a dps in all but name. they can lean more towards support. buffs, debuffs, dots, sage has this, but shielding as well. the only way to fix that isn't making it a dps. if you think it is you need to look back, rather carefully, at what the game already has and all of the viable options that would solve this problem irrelevant of what the devs will do, since we all know they won't be doing anything healers actually want for the foreseeable future.

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im all for buffs and debuffs but consider what kind of buffs would actually matter when you do not need any more effective hp.
damage reductions and shields are pointless in that scenario. movement speed is cute i guess? but also not necessary. the only relevant buffs you could add when no healing is needed are dps buff (be it crit, attack speed, flat%, etc)
the same goes for debuffs. CC is useless when every boss is immune and there are no adds worth CCing. (when was the last time anyone used repose in a savage fight, ever?) damage reductions and blindness etc are useless if you dont need to heal. also funny that you mention dots when dots are literally dps spells.

the game is so stripped of opportunities for support options that the only thing left is dps, either directly or indirectly through healing buffs.



at the end of the da i honestly dont care WHAT they do to healers as long it breaks the 1111111 monotony.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

my point is and remains a healer's primary goal is to heal. putting dps at the same level of importance or above it is just nonsense. they can fix the 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 spam without making it a dps in all but name. they can lean more towards support. buffs, debuffs, dots, sage has this, but shielding as well. the only way to fix that isn't making it a dps. if you think it is you need to look back, rather carefully, at what the game already has and all of the viable options that would solve this problem irrelevant of what the devs will do, since we all know they won't be doing anything healers actually want for the foreseeable future.

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WE HAD ALL THAT AND SE REMOVED THEM ALL!!!

We had skills like Virus, Disable, Eye for an Eye, Slows, Heavys, Knockbacks, Shields, etc. and they all got removed. There is literally NOTHING left but Heals, the occasional mitigation effect and filler spam. Why do you think we're bored out of our minds? Because we lost everything that made Healers fun, not just a handful of DPS skills.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

WE HAD ALL THAT AND SE REMOVED THEM ALL!!!

We had skills like Virus, Disable, Eye for an Eye, Slows, Heavys, Knockbacks, Shields, etc. and they all got removed. There is literally NOTHING left but Heals, the occasional mitigation effect and filler spam. Why do you think we're bored out of our minds? Because we lost everything that made Healers fun, not just a handful of DPS skills.

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Personally, I’d love to at least have Addle & Feint for the healer. About half of the “main DPS” that I’ve encountered don’t even use them because it’s not even on their hotbar, claimed too busy to focus on their rotation most of time (my static’s SAM is guilty for this) and/or it never crossed their mind to utilize them.

Doesn’t break the monotony of 1 button press ad nauseam, but I’d at least like to have better control over the mitigations instead of leaving it to the hands of randoms.