Letter to MR Yoshi: Why parses system is destroying the ffxiv world.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

If you have a legal parser, you're asking for min-max style raiding to filter down, and the next thing they'll ask for is much harder casual content to force people to actually use the parsers and look up and practice the rotations. That's not going to be a fun game for a lot of people. I watched people struggle with royal menagerie and tusukyomi hard...if the game gets any harder in casual content, you'll start to see people unable to complete it, same as easy ex content.

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Perhaps if they didn't hand everything to people on a silver platter before randomly upping the difficulty, they wouldn't be so shell shocked. How dare we expect players to actually learn and practice their level 70 rotations once reaching level 70. My god, the toxicity!

I read this thread and I just have one question.... what the hell is "parsing"?

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Originally Posted by Dreamsoap

I read this thread and I just have one question.... what the hell is "parsing"?

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...in the hopes that this is a serious question, it is basically a third party tool that tracks your combat data. It is a tool meant to help you improve and keep track of your performance. Any further information than that, you'd have to do research outside of these forums, for obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

...in the hopes that this is a serious question, it is basically a third party tool that tracks your combat data. It is a tool meant to help you improve and keep track of your performance. Any further information than that, you'd have to do research outside of these forums, for obvious reasons.

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Thanks, it was. I quit two years ago and have never heard of this before. No real clue what people were going on about.

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Originally Posted by Dreamsoap

Thanks, it was. I quit two years ago and have never heard of this before. No real clue what people were going on about.

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Personally, it's mostly a tool for endgame because the game really doesn't give us anything else to gauge ourselves on for areas of improvement. I wouldn't worry about it unless you want to play optimally in endgame content.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Personally, it's mostly a tool for endgame because the game really doesn't give us anything else to gauge ourselves on for areas of improvement. I wouldn't worry about it unless you want to play optimally in endgame content.

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I disagree, personally. One is expected to know what they're doing by the time or soon after they reach level cap. And using a parser throughout leveling could help with that.

If we're ever going to make performance transparent and foster an environment for self-improvement over freedom to throw or under-perform, there can't really be half-measures, either, wherein parsers are seen as necessary but nonetheless evil, and therefore reasonably limited to X content, rather than simple, useful information wherever and whenever its given.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I disagree, personally. One is expected to know what they're doing by the time or soon after they reach level cap. And using a parser throughout leveling could help with that.

If we're ever going to make performance transparent and foster an environment for self-improvement over freedom to throw or under-perform, there can't really be half-measures, either, wherein parsers are seen as necessary but nonetheless evil, and therefore reasonably limited to X content, rather than simple, useful information wherever and whenever its given.

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Players really shouldn't be focused on damage numbers while going through MSQ, though, hence why I specified endgame. I agree that the game does a crappy job at some of the tips you need to really do a good performance, but worrying about damage numbers when you're not at the level cap seems like a really bad idea because I think players will start short-cutting. I've never really been one to advocate for parsers to be used in casual content, because there's no need for a measuring damage metrics in those dungeons. The length of time in encounters are far too infrequent, most of the time in which you'll be using your AOE abilities.

I feel like having parsers in casual content will start reinforcing those single target players in mass pulls.

Parsing should be mandatory in all 50+ content and anyone that does less than the expected dps for their ilvl/job should get banned from queueing for an hour.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Parsing should be mandatory in all 50+ content and anyone that does less than the expected dps for their ilvl/job should get banned from queueing for an hour.

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Yes... Let's just kill the subs of players who worked their way through the ultima weapon. The vault is a good place to check under performing players. Let's not tie parsers into that because we'll get inexperienced healers valuing dps over necessary heals. Post vault, though, I will say that yes, some players are not ready for the 3.3 fight.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Parsing should be mandatory in all 50+ content and anyone that does less than the expected dps for their ilvl/job should get banned from queueing for an hour.

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I tried suggesting something like this (albeit without the ban from queuing) in another thread, it got (in hindsight rightly) lambasted. But looking back, if you kick and ban them from an hour, how are they supposed to practice their rotation while managing mechanics (sure you can practice your rotation on dummies but dummies don't teach you how to handle mechanics, also reading/watching guides won't help kinaesthetic learners)? I don't think that's the right approach. I am by all means all for having a parser to allow people to see their numbers, but auto-kicking them for it... at this point you might as well just permanently ban them from the game over it, for all the good the hour ban from queueing will do to help them.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Parsing should be mandatory in all 50+ content and anyone that does less than the expected dps for their ilvl/job should get banned from queueing for an hour.

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I don't think that's a good idea. I'd rather see underperforming players get pointed to resources where they can practice dpsing instead of banning them.

If someone wants to underperform, it's on them to either learn to get better, or risk getting kicked from the party instead of making the game kick them for you.

want to say something which is not to be taken as something against parser but it's more philosophical in nature.

In the end by itself parsers aren't really necessary a good player has that urge of getting better, even without existing parser in a game good players will find a way to get good results because it has become a part of them analyzing their mistakes and do better, this ofc requires that said urge exist in players in general and something don't have that, which is not necessarily a bad thing it depends how they pose themselves with others if they are helped.
In short parsers by themselves are only tools, it's how ppl pose themselves towards others that is the real problem.
It's like competitivenes it's good but it's also bad

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Players really shouldn't be focused on damage numbers while going through MSQ, though, hence why I specified endgame. I agree that the game does a crappy job at some of the tips you need to really do a good performance, but worrying about damage numbers when you're not at the level cap seems like a really bad idea because I think players will start short-cutting. I've never really been one to advocate for parsers to be used in casual content, because there's no need for a measuring damage metrics in those dungeons. The length of time in encounters are far too infrequent, most of the time in which you'll be using your AOE abilities.

I feel like having parsers in casual content will start reinforcing those single target players in mass pulls.

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Hmm, I suppose that's true with the leveling dungeon nerfs and most players seeing (other players in) older content only via synced roulettes and the like... If the leveling dungeons were revised to at least attempt some instruction, though, I think they could do a lot of good. They certainly did for others I knew back in ARR, to the point of spreading DoTs on all but a first target, burning the remainder down with just direct damage, then the one DoTed first, then the next, and next, etc., even as far back as Halatali (where only Archer and Marauder had AoEs anyways) or using DoTSpread-SleepRest-FocusFire to avoid having to heal even once mid-combat during Brayflox. Even if the stuff demanded too little to force anyone to test or learn new tactics, there were still quite a few people who min-maxed repeat runs even on their very first characters. And plenty of those admitted that if they hadn't had proof to back their theories -- a parser being more convenient to track encounter length consecutively than a stopwatch -- they probably wouldn't have bothered as much, nor gotten so into the shits-and-giggles optimization of it all.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Players really shouldn't be focused on damage numbers while going through MSQ, though, hence why I specified endgame. I agree that the game does a crappy job at some of the tips you need to really do a good performance, but worrying about damage numbers when you're not at the level cap seems like a really bad idea because I think players will start short-cutting. I've never really been one to advocate for parsers to be used in casual content, because there's no need for a measuring damage metrics in those dungeons. The length of time in encounters are far too infrequent, most of the time in which you'll be using your AOE abilities.

I feel like having parsers in casual content will start reinforcing those single target players in mass pulls.

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What are you talking about? casual content has dps checks that people fail to meet, and using proper aoe rotations is more dps then ST???? People ST because they do not know what they are doing so the reverse should happen, parsers would encourage to do proper aoe rotations by showing hey your number is higher doing aoe dps!!! magic.

Even at level 15 + or w/e, keeping a half decent APM is the difference of trash dps that takes 25+ mins to complete and sub 20, and a tank holding threat vs not. A lot of beginners seem not to understand why it is important to hit the button a head of time, not eye ball reacting to the GCD being ready.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Parsing should be mandatory in all 50+ content and anyone that does less than the expected dps for their ilvl/job should get banned from queueing for an hour.

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Ban the vast majority of the player-base then and see how both your queue times and overall game suffers. I can assure you a half an hour run of a dungeon is much better than an hour queue time. But yeah, heaven forbid people spend more than 15 minutes in a roulette or dungeon... At this point I'm hoping someone is going to call me out for not understanding sarcasm.

Pretty concerning with the people that are suggesting such perplexing ideas without actually understanding the ramifications that this would have on both the community, queue times. But again, as long as Lv.50+ content is completed in 15 minutes even with the queue times going upwards of 30-45 minutes. Banning players for under performing would just aggregate the underlying issue of their skill level, and the overall skill level of the player-base.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Ban the vast majority of the player-base then and see how both your queue times and overall game suffers. I can assure you a half an hour run of a dungeon is much better than an hour queue time. But yeah, heaven forbid people spend more than 15 minutes in a roulette or dungeon... At this point I'm hoping someone is going to call me out for not understanding sarcasm.

Pretty concerning with the people that are suggesting such perplexing ideas without actually understanding the ramifications that this would have on both the community, queue times. But again, as long as Lv.50+ content is completed in 15 minutes even with the queue times going upwards of 30-45 minutes. Banning players for under performing would just aggregate the underlying issue of their skill level, and the overall skill level of the player-base.

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Na it is a good idea. With banning a large portion of the playerbase, you would also get rid of housing drama and housing shortages. Clearly with "server limitations" there is too many players for the servers to handle, so why not just allow the best players play the game?

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

Na it is a good idea. With banning a large portion of the playerbase, you would also get rid of housing drama and housing shortages. Clearly with "server limitations" there is too many players for the servers to handle, so why not just allow the best players play the game?

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And those would now be replaced with people that complain about the content, or lack thereof. But let's ban those too, let's just ban everyone

I think wod made so that you could do heroic dungeons only if you had cleared the proving grounds on silver with your main role. I think they removed this in legion?

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

What are you talking about? casual content has dps checks that people fail to meet, and using proper aoe rotations is more dps then ST???? People ST because they do not know what they are doing so the reverse should happen, parsers would encourage to do proper aoe rotations by showing hey your number is higher doing aoe dps!!! magic.

Even at level 15 + or w/e, keeping a half decent APM is the difference of trash dps that takes 25+ mins to complete and sub 20, and a tank holding threat vs not. A lot of beginners seem not to understand why it is important to hit the button a head of time, not eye ball reacting to the GCD being ready.

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I think you might've missed the point I was getting at.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I think wod made so that you could do heroic dungeons only if you had cleared the proving grounds on silver with your main role. I think they removed this in legion?

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You could do heroic dungeons without ever setting foot in the Proving Grounds. The silver requirement was specifically for using the LFD tool. It did not carry over to Legion. Instead, they made mythic the "hard" dungeons and required manual group formation, which bypassed the need for the game to evaluate your abilities altogether.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

And those would now be replaced with people that complain about the content, or lack thereof. But let's ban those too, let's just ban everyone

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guess it is true what people say about sarcasm on the internet.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I think you might've missed the point I was getting at.

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with the post quota we got, why not try to explain it better in this post you made?

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

guess it is true what people say about sarcasm on the internet.

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Back at you^^

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

with the post quota we got, why not try to explain it better in this post you made?

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I'm not big on writing long posts, for one, and I don't know if I can't write it any clearer without losing my original point or overexplaining it. tldr; WYSIWYG

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Ban the vast majority of the player-base then and see how both your queue times and overall game suffers. I can assure you a half an hour run of a dungeon is much better than an hour queue time. But yeah, heaven forbid people spend more than 15 minutes in a roulette or dungeon... At this point I'm hoping someone is going to call me out for not understanding sarcasm.

Pretty concerning with the people that are suggesting such perplexing ideas without actually understanding the ramifications that this would have on both the community, queue times. But again, as long as Lv.50+ content is completed in 15 minutes even with the queue times going upwards of 30-45 minutes. Banning players for under performing would just aggregate the underlying issue of their skill level, and the overall skill level of the player-base.

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I agree with you here and imo this would effect much more than just queue times, because as with every game the so called "casual players" outweight "hardcore players" by far in terms of raw numbers. Banning people from content wouldn't make them reconsider their performance, most would just stop playing the game and this would effect the budget of the developers massively. And therefore the content we'll get.

Personally, i can understand the frustration some people cause during content, because they have a low skill level or a bad attitude. That said, i don't think punishment is the right way to convince them to improve. There need to be tools to assess the own performance and then everyone can decide for themselves, if and where they want to improve. But lets be real here, even with such tools some people won't improve and there is nothing Square Enix can do about it. They can only show those players how they're performing and then it is up to each and everyone to make a decision. After all some people don't have the ability or the will to improve and one of the reasons could be that they are playing this game for the lore, roleplay or story and don't really care about a decent performance.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Back at you^^

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I do admit, I was questioning if I should of deleted it after I wrote that.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I'm not big on writing long posts, for one, and I don't know if I can't write it any clearer without losing my original point or overexplaining it. tldr; WYSIWYG

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You just did it again though

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

You just did it again though

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Their point isn't that difficult to decipher. They are saying that people should be focusing on learning the basics of the job during the MSQ and trying to max out DPS actually hinders that learning. You don't try to learn how to drive a 16 wheeler before learning how to drive in general.

As a real example that I encountered, a few raid cycles ago, some of my raid members really struggled because they were using a parser. Rather than taking their time to properly learn the mechanics, they would be so focused on their parse number and damage output (unnecessarily, we were way ahead of the DPS check) that we would wipe to mechanics because of it. The solution my raid leader came up with was to ban the DPS from using their own parser (the raid leader still had one running) so that they would only focus on the mechanics, and that solved the problem.

Parsers are fine, but I do agree with KaivaC that I think player quality would actually decrease if parsers were encouraged in MSQ levelling content.

Personally, I'm more of the opinion that it's not so much that these people are plain bad, or incapable of playing to anyway near an acceptable standard. But rather, there's just no incentive whatsoever to do so for the vast majority of content. Why put effort in when you just don't need to. This is a glaring fault of the game's mainstream content in my eyes and it's been this way for far too long.

Even something as simple as a potency per second based scoring system at the end of each duty that gave you a private S-A to F or 1 to 5 star style ranking at the end of each duty would have an impact. Giving the player a nudge that they could be performing better.

It's something I've covered before, and frankly it'd be easy to implement, completely gear agnostic and if done sensibly, it'd also be self maintaining with little to no work needed down the line.

Yes, idiots overuse and obsess about parses. Like any tool it can be misused. More news at 11.

Personally, I would refuse to raid savage w/o these diagnostic tools available.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Personally, I'm more of the opinion that it's not so much that these people are plain bad, or incapable of playing to anyway near an acceptable standard. But rather, there's just no incentive whatsoever to do so for the vast majority of content. Why put effort in when you just don't need to. This is a glaring fault of the game's mainstream content in my eyes and it's been this way for far too long.

Even something as simple as a potency per second based scoring system at the end of each duty that gave you a private S-A to F or 1 to 5 star style ranking at the end of each duty would have an impact. Giving the player a nudge that they could be performing better.

It's something I've covered before, and frankly it'd be easy to implement, completely gear agnostic and if done sensibly, it'd also be self maintaining with little to no work needed down the line.

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There is some website that can use fflogs to explain where you have uptime problems and explains what you did wrong. For example it will tell you how long you went having aetherflow overflow timer (not using it) My point is, if the playerbase can come up with something like that, why can't SE do it in some form you described?

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Their point isn't that difficult to decipher. They are saying that people should be focusing on learning the basics of the job during the MSQ and trying to max out DPS actually hinders that learning. You don't try to learn how to drive a 16 wheeler before learning how to drive in general.

As a real example that I encountered, a few raid cycles ago, some of my raid members really struggled because they were using a parser. Rather than taking their time to properly learn the mechanics, they would be so focused on their parse number and damage output (unnecessarily, we were way ahead of the DPS check) that we would wipe to mechanics because of it. The solution my raid leader came up with was to ban the DPS from using their own parser (the raid leader still had one running) so that they would only focus on the mechanics, and that solved the problem.

Parsers are fine, but I do agree with KaivaC that I think player quality would actually decrease if parsers were encouraged in MSQ levelling content.

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So how do you get people to learn how to play as they go though the early levels? because part of the reason of the big skill gap at 70 is because this is not being done as they learn the game.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

So how do you get people to learn how to play as they go though the early levels? because part of the reason of the big skill gap at 70 is because this is not being done as they learn the game.

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Another big problem, aside from that, is the fact that there are jobs that change dramatically at level 70. The most egregious examples I can think of are Warrior and Dragoon, both of which get new skills that completely alter the way that they play at max level. How are you supposed to practice proper wrath meter management if Inner Release is your max level skill? How are you supposed to get a rhythm for managing your Eyes and using Gierskogul properly if Life of the Dragon, and Nastrond are only given to you at max level?

Admittedly, giving players these tools earlier doesn't do much to stop the Heavy Thrust situation, but still.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

Admittedly, giving players these tools earlier doesn't do much to stop the Heavy Thrust situation, but still.

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My only point of contention here is that for buffs with a 30/60s duration with no CD time, the might as well be added as trait buffs. But that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

So how do you get people to learn how to play as they go though the early levels? because part of the reason of the big skill gap at 70 is because this is not being done as they learn the game.

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Agreed.
Classes being vastly different at max level compared to low level is a problem, and also makes the leveling process even more retarded and non useful.

Quests and early dungeons should be used to gradually teach people to play properly, so people aren't in for such a shock when they ding max level and enter a raid.

Frankly speaking, we live in an age where informations go ramparts, if ppl won't spend a few minutes to better understand the job they are playing in any way, that's on them I say.
I don't think we need extensive training wheels that will only make us complacent, ACT, fflogs, the balance discord to new a few are avaible to everyone if ppl won't go there by themselves then there's a more intrinsical problem.

heck even a /shout can someone help me understand how [inster new skill here] works? would be a good initiative.

But if the person doesn't do that himself than it highly probable that he/she won't really improve since they have no reasons to, I might be stretching it but perhaps it relates to the low raid partecipation, some ppl aren't simply interested.

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Originally Posted by era1Ne

I agree with you here and imo this would effect much more than just queue times, because as with every game the so called "casual players" outweight "hardcore players" by far in terms of raw numbers. Banning people from content wouldn't make them reconsider their performance, most would just stop playing the game and this would effect the budget of the developers massively. And therefore the content we'll get.

Personally, i can understand the frustration some people cause during content, because they have a low skill level or a bad attitude. That said, i don't think punishment is the right way to convince them to improve. There need to be tools to assess the own performance and then everyone can decide for themselves, if and where they want to improve. But lets be real here, even with such tools some people won't improve and there is nothing Square Enix can do about it. They can only show those players how they're performing and then it is up to each and everyone to make a decision. After all some people don't have the ability or the will to improve and one of the reasons could be that they are playing this game for the lore, roleplay or story and don't really care about a decent performance.

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You are completly right that the so called casuals are in way higher numbers in every game but it happens in every game that if the so called hardcore players stop playing the game, it starts dying because the casuals lose their fun also since no one is farming the stuff they need or spends their gold/gil or what ever for their items and they also don't get carries anymore and can't do some content because of that. Games need both types of players but that doesn't mean that a casual player has to be lazy and just press 1,2,3.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

So how do you get people to learn how to play as they go though the early levels? because part of the reason of the big skill gap at 70 is because this is not being done as they learn the game.

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You really think a parser would help people learn how to play? Parsers are actually really poor teaching tools, sure you may work out things like AOE being more damaging (something also worked out by common sense if you think about it for more than a few seconds, and actually read the floating damage text), but it is far more likely to teach bad habits and incorrect play. The game needs to guide the player better through the early game, properly teaching rotation and game concepts throughout (not just in a big chunk like hall of the novice currently is).

Having a parser in early game would simply teach tanks to be in dps stance, and healers that they need to dps as much as possible, without actually teaching them how to successfully execute those, or why they are important.

I'd like everyone opposed to answer this question not pick and choose little bits to strawman. In regards to me having a personal parser, that I can see built into my hud for fights, what about that offends you or bothers you. Why can't I have it? Maybe if nothing else whIle I'm running the same roulette dungeons every day I want to beat my Previous skills so tell me why my personal parser is such a bother to you

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Originally Posted by Genoreaper

I'd like everyone opposed to answer this question not pick and choose little bits to strawman. In regards to me having a personal parser, that I can see built into my hud for fights, what about that offends you or bothers you. Why can't I have it? Maybe if nothing else whIle I'm running the same roulette dungeons every day I want to beat my Previous skills so tell me why my personal parser is such a bother to you

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I'm very pro-parser and can give you an answer to that. Having a parser is your choice, but parsers promote poor play if you don't already have the fundamental skill to play the game (hint: how many people in duty finder have this skill?). We would see personal parsers being read wrong, and we would see players who want to inflate their DPS take unnecessarily high risks which may hinder the party more than low DPS. We may also see the opposite problem than we have now, wherein players will think they are playing well just because they have high DPS ("but muh parsers says...") when in fact they have that DPS because they stood in all the AOEs, got all the damage buffs, and had an amazing healer.

Parsers are great for end game raiding, some would even say necessary. But for casual content it would be overwhelming and people would misunderstand and misuse them. Parsers are NOT a teaching tool, they are an optimising tool, and people need to stop treating them like they can teach newer or more casual people how to play.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I'm very pro-parser and can give you an answer to that. Having a parser is your choice, but parsers promote poor play if you don't already have the fundamental skill to play the game (hint: how many people in duty finder have this skill?). We would see personal parsers being read wrong, and we would see players who want to inflate their DPS take unnecessarily high risks which may hinder the party more than low DPS. We may also see the opposite problem than we have now, wherein players will think they are playing well just because they have high DPS ("but muh parsers says...") when in fact they have that DPS because they stood in all the AOEs, got all the damage buffs, and had an amazing healer.

Parsers are great for end game raiding, some would even say necessary. But for casual content it would be overwhelming and people would misunderstand and misuse them. Parsers are NOT a teaching tool, they are an optimising tool, and people need to stop treating them like they can teach newer or more casual people how to play.

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I'd have to second this. We already have a huge amount of people who already don't understand that parsers are meant for more than just having huge DPS numbers, and the immediate side-effect is not understanding how to read it when it is transferred over to fflogs. Take a gander at reddit to see that on a near-daily basis, there's a request for somebody to read parser information. Turning this over to players in an official capacity in MSQ content, before a lot of players even have a working foundation on their jobs, would spell some trouble.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Frankly speaking, we live in an age where informations go ramparts, if ppl won't spend a few minutes to better understand the job they are playing in any way, that's on them I say.

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It's a videogame, not university. Few people out there are in the habit of hunting for information and learning for themselves. As such, I believe the game itself should contain all the necessary information to play correctly. And still, you will find people not willing to read 3 lines in a tooltip. It can't be helped, not everyone takes a game seriously enough to want to play well.

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Originally Posted by Genoreaper

I'd like everyone opposed to answer this question not pick and choose little bits to strawman. In regards to me having a personal parser, that I can see built into my hud for fights, what about that offends you or bothers you. Why can't I have it? Maybe if nothing else whIle I'm running the same roulette dungeons every day I want to beat my Previous skills so tell me why my personal parser is such a bother to you

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I would never want a parser in my hud. Combat log analysis is done AFTER the fight. Watching it during the fight is waay too much of a distraction and has no benefit at all.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I'm very pro-parser and can give you an answer to that. Having a parser is your choice, but parsers promote poor play if you don't already have the fundamental skill to play the game

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Agreed. People focus WAY too much on on that single tiny DPS number, when a parsing combat data has so much more to offer.
Taking unnecessary risks, as you said, and to the point of meter padding.
How often had I people waste precious GCDs on a mob that didn't need to be DPSed on due to encounter mechanics while the mob that had to die ASAP lived longer in WoW? I lost count. <_<

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Originally Posted by Granyala

It's a videogame, not university. Few people out there are in the habit of hunting for information and learning for themselves. As such, I believe the game itself should contain all the necessary information to play correctly. And still, you will find people not willing to read 3 lines in a tooltip. It can't be helped, not everyone takes a game seriously enough to want to play well.

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Yes it's a game, but as you say the analysis is done after the fight as such if ppl don't care it's their own fault not the company or the game.
Since this is a multyplayer game it promotes ppl talking to each other to understand the game and become better if ppl don't do that that's I repeat their own damn fault