Give us back the old Paladin

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Originally Posted by Alpheus

So that it can still be proc'd by another player should the boss jump and be untargetable/not wasting any MP on a clemency especially given the newer rotation being more MP heavy.

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Except the new rotation is NOT MP heavy. You do NOT need to do the 2 minute rotation with hard casting Holy Spirits and that is the only case where MP is an issue. It has been proven, both mathematically and practically that just doing the rotation, however you want, whether that is hardcasting Holy Spirit, doing the 1 minute loop with 2 divine Holy Spirits or just using everything as it comes makes virtually NO difference to damage.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Except the new rotation is NOT MP heavy. You do NOT need to do the 2 minute rotation with hard casting Holy Spirits and that is the only case where MP is an issue. It has been proven, both mathematically and practically that just doing the rotation, however you want, whether that is hardcasting Holy Spirit, doing the 1 minute loop with 2 divine Holy Spirits or just using everything as it comes makes virtually NO difference to damage.

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I can only speak to my limited experience with the new design given my limited playtime but you do make a fair point. The basis of the idea was to not have to allow for a clemency cast as your only recourse should the boss be un-targetable because I know PLD in general tries to avoid that when at all possible while still keeping old DV's interplay mechanic.

I'm perfectly fine with how it is currently as old Shake it Off personally speaking. The animation is neat and it fits just fine. Was just offering a suggestion that could allow for some that old vibe back that that one poster was missing.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

I mean when a lot of casuals struggle to correctly press 1-2-3 or 1-2 let alone make use of defensive cooldowns as a tank, does this change really affect their "playstyle"?

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Nice strawman.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

While in a vacuum, I'd say no. However, with the current landscape, yes.

Many of those same players or players with a similar mindset have demanded changes which negatively impact the enjoyment for raiders or even midcore players. Bard and Summoner have been absolutely gutted from their heydays due to casual players whining they were too complicated. Dark Knight went through several iterations due to casual players refusing to play the easier tanks in Heavensward. Machinist has been a hot mess for years when they abandoned the much beloved ammo system. All of these players were told, on this very forum even, to simply "get over it." That "the majority of players prefer the new version!"

To those players now complaining their favourite job was neutered, I say, welcome to the other side of that argument. Frustrating, isn't it?

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While I can't speak for everyone who had an opinion about rotations back then, I am assuming that you are being cheeky in how you are referring to me and my misgivings about having PLD changed, yes?

If so, you are preaching to the choir and I played an unhealthy amount of DRK and MCH during SB before they were gutted in Shadowbringers and I was not (and am still not) happy with the removal of Gauss Barrel/heat management nor am I happy with the removal of Dark Arts.
While I can't say I have any experience playing BRD or pre-EW SMN, but even if I do find EW SMN chill and fun, I'm not satisfied that previous mains saw their job deleted and replaced either.

So we're on the same side of being grumpy at SE for mucking up our jobs, maybe?

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

The rotation basically hasn't changed other than being frontloaded and Goring Blade feeling like complete ass to push now.

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We're going to have to agree to disagree on this point, I think. I never used to drop atonements outside of situations where I had to move away from the boss for a GCD or two and need to refresh goring blade.

6.2 PLD: Goring Blade Combo -> Atonement Combo -> Goring Blade Combo -> Magic Combo -> Atonement -> Repeat
6.3 PLD: Burst -> Atonement filler x2.5ish -> Repeat burst

They feel like night and day to me.

No, PLD is good this way.

As for everyone defending old Veil because of player interaction or something... Remember that Living Dead used to be the worst invuln because of that. Remember they removed pacification on WAR damage buff. No one cried for these changes, everyone was happy, so why is this different today?
It's a multiplayer game, being an MMO is no excuse to have your kit depend on someone else action.

I'm even confused by anyone who misses the dot.
Remember old PLD rotation? It was mainly alterning Goring Blade and Royal Authority, nothing more.
The physical phase is still there but without FoF. Even then, FoF isn't gone.

I feel that most comments against 6.3 PLD are more angry at change than 6.3 PLD itself.

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Originally Posted by nia_saeli

If so, you are preaching to the choir and I played an unhealthy amount of DRK and MCH during SB before they were gutted in Shadowbringers and I was not (and am still not) happy with the removal of Gauss Barrel/heat management

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Gauss Barrel? Heat management?
If you were on 2.50 GCD and there was no downtime, you wouldn't manage the heat gauge at all, you would hit 95 heat before Flamethrower. In other cases, it was just pressing heatblast once.
Gauss barrel was just activating your gauge, and manually reactivating it wasn't fun.

Compared to you, I can assure you I have played an ungodly amount of MCH. And I'm glad they're gone today.
Those were not fun or engaging, just one more button to press in order to start your rotation.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

And yet again an ability gets dumbed down because communication is too much to ask for in an MMO or because you'd loose *gasp* a GCD or whatever.
I wonder how many more abilities need to be streamlined until people realise that not that much actual game is left. It's always 'this is an inconvenience!' while I'd argue that's... just playing a game? Isn't (good) cooperation also some sort of skill expressions? Apparently not. It would also be convenient to just have only one ability on every single job called 'Resolve'. You press it and you win. Every time. Easy to balance, you always get a perfect parse and everyone is happy. lol I know that's taking things into the extreme, but honestly, looking from 1.0 to 2.0 to now that's pretty much the current trajectory.

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There's a lot of people that in this forum or reddit where they would heavily campaign against homogenization while on the very same sentence demanding homogenization guised under QoL change. And if confronted the argument is always the same, if that class can do it why can't I. Now we get Divine Veil being an instant cast just like Shake it Off instead of a delayed shield that if casted properly can net you an extra cast later on. And now what's next? Passage of arms being a bubble instead of a cone so that it can be compared to Asylum/Sacred Soil? Make Holy Shelltron and Intervention into 1 button while removing Oath Gauge and instead make it into a strict 20s cooldown so it will be following the same rules as other tanks? Make Clemency into an oGCD with 1200 heal potency that gradually restores HP with 200 potency for 15s? PLD instead of being able store 1 Holy Might now able to store 3 Holy Mights in which then can be spend in their 20s burst window the same as GNB cartridges?

It really seems like they wanted PLD to be a WAR/GNB clone, and now with the new changes that for me is still following the same ruleset as 6.2 PLD they are trying really hard to make comparisons to other tank classes.

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Originally Posted by esra01

It really seems like they wanted PLD to be a WAR/GNB clone, and now with the new changes that for me is still following the same ruleset as 6.2 PLD they are trying really hard to make comparisons to other tank classes.

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Divine Veil and Shake it off were already the exact same thing.
The trigger effect was the only different aspect.

When player complains about two thing being the same, they refer to abilities like Inner Release and Delirium, in 5.0 those abilities used to just spam the very same gauge spender 5 times in a row without anything else.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Divine Veil and Shake it off were already the exact same thing.

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And yet despite only the trigger effect being the only different aspect, Divine Veil creates a situation where a PLD can plan up to 30s ahead of the incoming raidwides to optimize the cooldown rotation in which Shake it Off are unable to do so. Mitigating raidwides that are 75s apart from each other is something that only Divine Veil can do and impossible for Shake it Off at patch 5.0 to 6.2. Despite the effect is almost the same, it creates a situation where as a PLD you want to discuss and plan ahead for Divine Veil activation which is an interesting part for PLD.

The only downside for Divine Veil is that it have a chance for it to fail and they fix that problem in 6.0 granting you self autonomy with Holy Spirit having a little bit of self healing. And it was made even more easier in 6.3 where you are 100% guaranteed to be able to proc divine veil since you are getting free Holy Spirit from every 1 2 3, but for some reason they fixed a problem that they have already fixed for the sake of homogenization so that Divine Veil can be compared to Shake it Off.

Yeah I know that there are blatant homogenization with Inner Release and Delirium at 5.0 but I think that in 6.0 SE is making good progress in making each tank classes have their own unique twist.

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Originally Posted by esra01

And yet despite only the trigger effect being the only different aspect, Divine Veil creates a situation where a PLD can plan up to 30s ahead of the incoming raidwides to optimize the cooldown rotation in which Shake it Off are unable to do so.

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I've already answered this argument but you gain much more application from 6.3 DV than 6.2 DV.
A cooldown that answers immediatly is better in all situations for every player.

You mention Holy Spirit with Divine might but I can already see many situations that would be confusing with 6.2 DV.
What if you want to hold the Divine Might for your burst window?
What if you don't want to trigger the Divine Veil but you're about to erase your Divine Might? And what about your burst window, would you delay it?

Those are questions you don't care with 6.3 DV.

I get the argument but this falls in the kisscool combo/tech you see in many video games that are very good on paper but barely used in a real situation.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I've already answered this argument but you gain much more application from 6.3 DV than 6.2 DV.
A cooldown that answers immediatly is better in all situations for every player.

You mention Holy Spirit with Divine might but I can already see many situations that would be confusing with 6.2 DV.
What if you want to hold the Divine Might for your burst window?
What if you don't want to trigger the Divine Veil but you're about to erase your Divine Might? And what about your burst window, would you delay it?

Those are questions you don't care with 6.3 DV.

I get the argument but this falls in the kisscool combo/tech you see in many video games that are very good on paper but barely used in a real situation.

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This makes no sense to me. I'll give you an example. On P8s, with old veil, you could cast during countdown, mit the first raidwide, and have it back up to mit the second raidwide; particularly if it was dog. And if you were doing the optimal rotation, it would line up beautifully with your casting phase. Meaning, you didn't even have to worry about triggering it. You can't do that anymore. So now, at least as far as raidwide mitigation is concerned, you bring less to the table. Old veil just required a bit of planning, which should always be happening anyways in endgame content. And they still could have maintained that functionality with the the offensive rotation changes. If anything, it would have been even easier to trigger veil. This whole rework has been an abject failure.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

You mention Holy Spirit with Divine might but I can already see many situations that would be confusing with 6.2 DV.
What if you want to hold the Divine Might for your burst window?
What if you don't want to trigger the Divine Veil but you're about to erase your Divine Might? And what about your burst window, would you delay it?

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Then let me try answering those 2 questions. Plus another one since that is a question asked to me by someone else

1. What if you want to hold the Divine Might for your burst window?
There are 2 dead periods where you can't proc your Divine Veil due to burst window. 1st dead period is right after your burst window which is 6 GCD long, 2nd dead period is when you want to be saving your Divine Might which is 3 ( or 4 GCD if you are running faster than 2.5 SkS ) GCD long. Those 2 dead periods are during your filler period after burst window and in between them you have a filler Divine Might. And so in the case of you wanting to use Divine Veil to mitigate any raidwide during the dead periods then you can do so during your burst or with your filler Divine Might. In both cases the dead period doesn't last any longer than 15 seconds which DV 30s shield able to cover

With the added bonus that if you preplan the usage of Divine Veil then it can be used as early as right after burst window and procced right before 2nd Royal Authority during filler. Leading to 13 - 30 seconds of DV cooldown running earlier.

2. What if you don't want to trigger the Divine Veil but you're about to erase your Divine Might? And what about your burst window, would you delay it?
This would be the situation where triggering Divine Veil right now then the 30s shield duration wouldn't last until the next raidwide. And if that's the case then you just don't press the Divine Veil button. The situation where a PLD missed the timing to proc DV and so can't proc it for the next raidwide is impossible. Since your dead period is only 15s long and DV shield lasts for 30 seconds.

And so as a PLD that have its mitigation planned out beforehand, you are able to cover any raidwide damage that comes up at any part of your rotation.

3. What if there's a repeating raidwide where you REALLY need Divine Veil 400 potency heal but can't due to the raidwide came up and lasted precisely during the dead period.
This is the part where old DV and new DV starts to have its pro and cons. For new DV, you can always have the option to fully optimize the healing part but not for old DV. But at the same time old DV have the option to optimize its cooldown that could lead into an additional usage. And both cases could save your healer a resource. An example where old DV truly shines is during P8S P2 last 3 Aionagonia, in which it can be used on first and third Aion which is impossible for all other 90s tank cooldown.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

It's a multiplayer game, being an MMO is no excuse to have your kit depend on someone else action.

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Agree to disagree. That is exactly how an MMO should work. For me it's a team effort.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Agree to disagree. That is exactly how an MMO should work. For me it's a team effort.

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Ok so using any mitigation raid wide is already working towards your team, you shouldn't be dependent on your team to use your own cooldown or abilities.

Imagine this as a example, if Dark knights Shadow wall requires a GCD heal to mitigate for 25%, you'd be dependent on outside sources to properly use your actions and it would be "unique" for sure but it wouldn't make it fun for the dark knight to depend on a teammate to properly use their own skillset, It's a team based game but You should be in control of when you use your own abilities

Putting aside the argument that "PLD can proc it by holy sprit" ok? so 6.2 PLD would either have to use it inside burst or have a big DPS loss to use it, even if we have 6.3 PLD it ignores that PLD isn't able to proc it in any lower level content (even 80 content). The changes make sense feel great and responsive, the old Divine veil felt really outdated and bland to use.

Overall I think the Divine veil changes were great, I like working with my team and protecting them actively as PLD feels good.

https://i.gyazo.com/f03122865f5627c3...699c670a96.png

'Cool I got a new skill, how do I trigger it? Wait what do you mean I can't?'

Say what you will about the rotation, reworked Veil is absolutely superior to old Veil. It didn't even need to affect the PLD to be an improvement in my eyes, the fact it does is even better news. Being a tank means knowing what you have and when you'll have it, so you can plan what to use and where. Nobody would find it useful to have 'TBN, but you have to receive a heal first for it to work'. 'Oh, but you can use Souleater to trigger it!' Yeh and what if we're at HardSlash in the combo, or we're in the 2min and spamming Bloodspillers? Or would the solution there be to throw away a C+S, and use Abyssal Drain to trigger it, at a DPS loss?

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Originally Posted by esra01

Then let me try answering those 2 questions. Plus another one since that is a question asked to me by someone else

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I wasn't necessary looking for an answer, just trying to demonstrate how cubbersome and niche it would be to gain one use of DV.
If you really want to strech it, you can 1 2 3, Atonement*3 and 1 2 before having to Holy spirit, which lasts 20 seconds top.

In any cases, if you really wanted to save a use, you would need to be able to use Divine Veil in that 20 second window, which is incredibly niche.
Yes, it happens as you say with P8SP2, but that's one case, it doesn't apply everywhere.

Even then, PLD still has PoA has extra mitigation, it's not like it was behind other tanks.
It might even be why SQEX decided to change it, easier to use and avoid extra uses on specific content which would throw the balance of said content.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Agree to disagree. That is exactly how an MMO should work. For me it's a team effort.

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Here's the thing:
Raiding is already coordinating your party movement, raidbuff and mitigation.
Having to proc Divine Veil isn't a team effort, it's a responsibility.

Would you agree to restore pacification on WAR and old Living Dead, because those tanks lacks "team effort" abilities?
No, because it's ridiculous to have a tool which is someone else's responsibility.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I wasn't necessary looking for an answer, just trying to demonstrate how cubbersome and niche it would be to gain one use of DV.

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I mean you posed the question where in those 2 situations having instant cast Divine Veil would be way better than old DV because of the limitation of your rotation, which is totally not true at all. Old DV needing to be procced is a very easy thing to solve in current iteration of PLD as I proved in the answers I gave to you. The only thing you need to do is instead of pressing Divine Veil when the castbar is in front of you, you just have to think 6 GCDs ahead.

Right after burst window you should have 3x atonement followed by 1 2 3 > 3x atonement > 1 2 so that is 12 GCD including the holy spirit itself, with using Divine Veil right at the very last GCD of FoF you can save a Divine Veil usage for 30 seconds.

The cases of having 2 raidwide being 45-90s apart from each other is extremely common in any savage floor. I think you are severely underestimating the amount of raidwides happening at 1 minute interval. Like just open any fight timeline, every single one of them have raidwides that are spaced pretty close together. And yeah PLD isn't really lacking in party mit with PoA, but at the same time why homogenize yet another skill? Old DV with current rotation is only cumbersome if you can't bother to plan 6 GCD ahead of the raidwide.

And I really don't think that PLD party mit is too OP, as in no one have ever cried that PLD have one too many party mitigations to the point where the raid itself is demanding PLD to be there so you can survive a raidwide.

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Originally Posted by nia_saeli

While I can't speak for everyone who had an opinion about rotations back then, I am assuming that you are being cheeky in how you are referring to me and my misgivings about having PLD changed, yes?

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Not at you, specifically. Just the general sentiment that changing a job for the majority is a bad thing when this precise same viewpoint was okay when it happened to jobs people who disliked their previous iterations.

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Originally Posted by Riion

This makes no sense to me. I'll give you an example. On P8s, with old veil, you could cast during countdown, mit the first raidwide, and have it back up to mit the second raidwide; particularly if it was dog. And if you were doing the optimal rotation, it would line up beautifully with your casting phase. Meaning, you didn't even have to worry about triggering it. You can't do that anymore. So now, at least as far as raidwide mitigation is concerned, you bring less to the table. Old veil just required a bit of planning, which should always be happening anyways in endgame content. And they still could have maintained that functionality with the the offensive rotation changes. If anything, it would have been even easier to trigger veil. This whole rework has been an abject failure.

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That first raid wide is comically over-mitigated because you should have either E.Prog or Spreadlo along with Reprisal and any of the other tank mits can just be thrown up pre-pull. Nevertheless, I'll grant you it's still free mitigation that is no longer possible—in a single fight at a point that isn't wholly needed. Meanwhile, in most other fights this supposed "advantage" often leads to old Veil simply sitting around doing precisely nothing because healers won't proc it at the cost of their damage unless it's absolutely necessary. So if old Veil doesn't conveniently line up with a Paladin's magic phase and a raidwide, it's essentially useless. Considering how often such a scenario occurs, the new application is simply better.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Agree to disagree. That is exactly how an MMO should work. For me it's a team effort.

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Mitigation and defensive tools can't be reliant on other players because it takes away any agency you have. Ask any Dark Knight prior to 6.1 the thrill that had doing P3S. Pretty much every PF strat required both tanks to invuln. So healers knew Living Dead needed to be heal. Was it? Nope! I and many Dark Knights can attest to be left to die to their own invuln because healers either couldn't heal it or simply refused. While Veil was nowhere near as punishing, the same principle applies. In nearly every scenario, it was ignored due to the raidwides not hitting hard enough to necessitate extra shielding. Especially not when it came at the cost of damage. You can turn your nose up at people for refusing to lose one GCD. I'd rather have consistency.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

In any cases, if you really wanted to save a use, you would need to be able to use Divine Veil in that 20 second window, which is incredibly niche.
Yes, it happens as you say with P8SP2, but that's one case, it doesn't apply everywhere.
Having to proc Divine Veil isn't a team effort, it's a responsibility.

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Can confirm P8SP1, P8SP2, and P7S all had Veil uptime strats. And P7S specifically did not want/need a healer to early pop it ever. Then again you are right, not EVERY fight could use the ability to burst mitigation like old veil could. How many did you test?

I'm glad they took the ability to delay away thou. I hated thinking about what buttons I want to push for more than 15-30 seconds at a time every 1 or 2 minutes.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Mitigation and defensive tools can't be reliant on other players because it takes away any agency you have. Ask any Dark Knight prior to 6.1 the thrill that had doing P3S. Pretty much every PF strat required both tanks to invuln. So healers knew Living Dead needed to be heal. Was it? Nope! I and many Dark Knights can attest to be left to die to their own invuln because healers either couldn't heal it or simply refused. While Veil was nowhere near as punishing, the same principle applies. In nearly every scenario, it was ignored due to the raidwides not hitting hard enough to necessitate extra shielding. Especially not when it came at the cost of damage. You can turn your nose up at people for refusing to lose one GCD. I'd rather have consistency.

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Your right, PLD has never had the ability to GCD heal itself mid rotation to activate Veil on it's own. I really wish WAR wasn't the only tank with self heals. Oh maybe they should make Clemency part of PLD core rotation. It could be like on a charge system or something. Oh oh and make it so that you can move it around in your rotation with out breaking combo. Yeah I like that idea. I hope they add it to PLD soon.

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Originally Posted by DoubleOneOne

Your right, PLD has never had the ability to GCD heal itself mid rotation to activate Veil on it's own. I really wish WAR wasn't the only tank with self heals. Oh maybe they should make Clemency part of PLD core rotation. It could be like on a charge system or something. Oh oh and make it so that you can move it around in your rotation with out breaking combo. Yeah I like that idea. I hope they add it to PLD soon.

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I know you intended this as a cheeky little "gotcha" but you're unironically suggesting Paladin's sacrifice damage to proc mitigation that is never going to be required. And you mean for this to be a defense in favor of old Veil? If healers won't proc Veil what makes you think Paladins would? Especially when it would impact their rotation far worse. At least their old one. No self respecting Paladin is ever touching Clemency outside of absolute desperation scenarios. They certainly aren't using it on Veil.

Meanwhile, the other tanks just press their mitigation without throwing away damage for no discernable reason.

I'd be up for old paladin.

I loved being able to sprint and spend my TP, and then grab agro with MP, was such an advantage.
Once I was firm in my agro, some TP would come back and I'd start doing my primary damage combo on each monster until I noticed that I was starting to lose agro, then I'd whip put my FLASH a while again.
I almost never had to use my AGRO combo, and with good groups who would spread out damage I could even keep myself in combat stance instead of tank stance.


...

What, not THAT old of paladin?

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Meanwhile, in most other fights this supposed "advantage" often leads to old Veil simply sitting around doing precisely nothing because healers won't proc it at the cost of their damage unless it's absolutely necessary. So if old Veil doesn't conveniently line up with a Paladin's magic phase and a raidwide, it's essentially useless. Considering how often such a scenario occurs, the new application is simply better.

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This is not true at all with 6.3 and even 6.2 PLD. For 6.3 PLD rotation, it's impossible for a PLD to fail at proccing Divine Veil. And so old veil and new veil are functionally the same just that new veil removes the added complexity that old veil have. Even at 6.2 you just have to be mindful of your Requiescat window and plan your divine veil accordingly. For 6.2 PLD their physical filler rotation is either 37.5s or 45s long, since Divine Veil shield duration is 30 seconds there are only 7.5s or 15s dead period where you can't cover raidwides with divine veil. I can assure you that situation is actually extremely rare, and if that ever happens there are always another mechanic that damages the entire party before or right after that dead period. And the good thing about 6.3 PLD rotation is that it completely removed that dead period.

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Originally Posted by esra01

This is not true at all with 6.3 and even 6.2 PLD. For 6.3 PLD rotation, it's impossible for a PLD to fail at proccing Divine Veil. And so old veil and new veil are functionally the same just that new veil removes the added complexity that old veil have. Even at 6.2 you just have to be mindful of your Requiescat window and plan your divine veil accordingly. For 6.2 PLD their physical filler rotation is either 37.5s or 45s long, since Divine Veil shield duration is 30 seconds there are only 7.5s or 15s dead period where you can't cover raidwides with divine veil. I can assure you that situation is actually extremely rare, and if that ever happens there are always another mechanic that damages the entire party before or right after that dead period. And the good thing about 6.3 PLD rotation is that it completely removed that dead period.

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... it should be quite obvious I wasn't talking about 6.3 Veil when I specifically said "old Veil". Naturally, it won't effect your rotation now because they literally removed any interaction with it.

As for 6.2, you're still missing the point. Veil going off on incidental raidwides doesn't matter. Either they weren't damaging enough to be relevant or more reliable mitigation covered them. You're essentially arguing old Veil was good because it covered something. Which isn't how good mitigation should work. You want reliability; to always know x tool will be on y mechanic. Which is precisely what the other tanks have. The extremely rare cases where Veil's delayed activation being an advantage over Shake never overcame Shake's consistency.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

... it should be quite obvious I wasn't talking about 6.3 Veil when I specifically said "old Veil"......

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What I meant is that if they didn't update Divine Veil and left it as it is, the new 6.3 PLD rotation fixes any inconsistencies that are left from the old 6.2 Veil. Making it having the same consistency as an instant cast. It's like giving DRK a tool to heals himself back up to full health while on the very same patch also removing the downside of Living Dead.

On this current tier of savage, there is not a single raidwide or mechanic that deals less than 40k damage unmitigated and so any amount of damage that gets mitigated is still better than nothing. The only mechanic that doesn't actually deals that much damage is only Cachexia 1. And then regarding consistency, I don't know what kind of free style Paladin you are playing right now, since your rotation should be almost the same from this pull to the next pull and so if you press your Veil at the same exact time as your previous pull it will then be covering the same exact raidwide as the previous pull. It has the reliability, my healer knows that my Divine Veil will always be on that same exact raidwide. The only downside is that there are some raidwides that I can't proc divine veil by myself, but at the same time there are some raidwides where a well planned Veil can cover 2 mechanics back to back in which it would be impossible for Shake, oh and it's also consistent.

For example

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Originally Posted by esra01

An example where old DV truly shines is during P8S P2 last 3 Aionagonia, in which it can be used on first and third Aion which is impossible for all other 90s tank cooldown.

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2nd example, P8S P1 Dog First - Rearing Rampage ( 1:30 ) > Nest/Tetra ( 2:30 ) > Ekthothermos ( 3:30 )
3rd example, P7S - Light pt Stack ( 5:00 ) > Raidwide ( 6:00 ) > Purgatory 1st Light of Life ( 7:00 )

In those 3 examples both the heal effect and shield effect for Veil is fully used. Its impossible for Shake it Off to cover 3 consecutive raidwides/mechanics, current Shake it Off can do that but by doing so it will be wasting its heal potency while old Veil won't be wasting a single potency. And those 3 examples have enough damage to cause a wipe due to not enough mitigation while also at the points where shield healer mitigation is being stretched thin.

You can say what you want. Come back to me once more tools have been taken away and everyone is even more playing on their own and tell me how much fun that is. It's no wonder SE relies on DDR so much because everything remotely interested gets sacrificed on the altar of DPS. DV was perfectly fine. Use a macro to let the healer know or use a heal yourself. Aren't we all complaining healers have nothing to do? Now we can cross another thing from the list. Put it where aggro management, Goad and all the other abilities are till all you press is one button for that perfect parse.
Careful what you wish for and all that. A shame.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I know you intended this as a cheeky little "gotcha" but you're unironically suggesting Paladin's sacrifice damage to proc mitigation that is never going to be required. And you mean for this to be a defense in favor of old Veil? If healers won't proc Veil what makes you think Paladins would? Especially when it would impact their rotation far worse. At least their old one. No self respecting Paladin is ever touching Clemency outside of absolute desperation scenarios. They certainly aren't using it on Veil.

Meanwhile, the other tanks just press their mitigation without throwing away damage for no discernable reason.

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Please link the rotation you are using... cause everyone I've seen used HS, Confiteor, or the blade combo at least once every 15s. These are GCD heals that proc old veil. Also hard casting HS is damage neutral and does not break combo. And Veil lasts for 30s.. for full availability uptime.

IMO no self respecting healer is ever touching GCD healing outside of absolute desperation scenarios. Its the un-geared party members fault for not using healing pots or getting more gear before doing the fights. I'm also really glad that if anyone drops a single GCD or oGCD in any fight we don't clear the DPS check. It makes it easy for me to know it was my fault for wiping at 0.1% when I don't hold my gap closer for uptime. Oh wait I know what it is, trying to clear all of the content the first day it dropped with the bare minimum stats to clear. If only they release gear at the same time as new fights come out so that DPS check gets easier over time.

I really DO NOT UNDERSTAND why people keep bring up other tanks mit. I DO NOT PLAY THE OTHER TANKS BECAUASE THEY ARE EASIER TO MIT WITH. If players want an easier time with mitigation don't play PLD. I will take your advice thou, if a buster comes during my burst I'll be sure to us mit it AFTER my burst, can't be loosing any of that damage for no discernable reason. I mean healers have shields they can use on me. PLD is a DPS class after all.

Please bring back the old Paladin rotation. I liked it a lot more than the new one. You had your holy spirits you could cast when you needed to be out of melee range with Requiescat. The old rotation had 3 parts and it was smooth.

I was a SMN main before the rework, then they took away the Dots and the complexity of the rotation. Now I never touch it. Had Paladin as main tank because of the balancing of the Dots, now they are gone. Why do you hate Dots so much Square Enix? It's starting to become ridiculous, there are players who like managing dots you know.... Also why is Cover still in the game? And why is Clemency still a spell and not an ability? You made the damage rotation more boring to play, you could atleast fix it's utility so that it has skills that you actually use in fights.

Well, it would be a curse but I do like new PLD rotation more than the old one.
I speak my opinion out, don't kill me

I signed up to the forums just to voice my opinion. I've been playing PLD since Heavensward as my main + favourite class.
I wanted to wait a week before posting so I could properly feel out the class in different content and to try and unlearn the muscle memory of the previous rotation.

I am extremely upset that the old rotation is gone. I really enjoyed optimizing it for each Savage fight and Ultimate fight I was learning and keeping DoT uptime.
I liked the separated melee and magic phases. It felt like I was involved 100% of the time playing the job - that each button press mattered.

I no longer feel this, because I have to shove all of my resources into a 20 second window and am then bored for 40 seconds.
This new system feels like a watered down Gunbreaker. If I wanted that, I would just play Gunbreaker.
Gunbreaker feels complete. Paladin now feels unfinished, but it is agonising because I played a version of Paladin I loved.

Some players have speculated that this is an interim before their new vision in 7.0. But then why do I have to play an unfinished version of my favourite class until 7.0?

I dislike the lowering of the skill ceiling of Divine Veil by removing the proc. I liked planning it into my rotation and never had an issue triggering it myself using my magic combo or piggybacking off of other healers I knew would be coming. It allowed me to express proactivity in my gameplay. I didn't really mind the fact that it didn't shield me as well, but I'm a tank. I'm able to survive easier than the other party members naturally anyway.

There are still some expressions that remain that I still like, such as:

I still like the fact that I can use Holy Sheltron on myself and Intervention on my Co-Tank during dual-tank busters. I still like that it is benefitted from having mitigation on myself such as Rampart as this rewards proactive gameplay and thinking ahead. I do not want to see these simply combined like Heart of Corundum as it removes another expression of proactive gameplay.
I also set up an entire set of macros just to use Intervention on party members more easily even whilst I'm tanking and may need to use Holy Sheltron.

I still like the conal Passage of Arms in front of my team as that fills the fantasy of protecting your team by being in front and taking the brunt of an attack.

Both the 1-2-3 combo and AoE combo giving a stack of Divine Might. This means I can choose to use one or the other depending on the situation is an excellent idea and I like this implementation. It also rounds out the original AoE Combo to have a 3rd part of the combo that flows well thematically.


I was still able to clear all content in the game and never felt like I was holding the group back with my class choice. My static enjoys the extra utility PLD brings to the table, it is very interactive in a group setting. And more importantly, I was having fun with old PLD.

Preface:
I've been a PLD main for 4 years. I've cleared UCoB, TEA, and DSR on old PLD. For new PLD I recently nabbed some nice parses to see how comfortable I was with the rework.


Old vs new:
I think that this rework will anger the old PLD players, and fail to attract new players to the job. Old PLD players in my experience were characterized as meticulous and detail-oriented, since every fight was a little bit different when you had to adhere to optimal rotations on a spreadsheet. What also comes with this personality trait is that the same players *loathe* being bad. It's taken me roughly 12 days of constantly only playing PLD for 8+ hours a day to undo the old rotation in my mind, and at least get the new rotation to a point where I feel comfortable with it. The hardest part of this rework as an old PLD player has been UNLEARNING the old rotation.


Is it a "good" rework?
To answer this question, we first have to define the goal of the rework. I think if the goal of the rework was to get PLDs to stop dropping Atonements in order to have a fluid rotation, then it has failed. If the goal was to simply line up PLD for burst then it has succeeded.

I think the new rotation is more focus-oriented during burst at the cost of the filler being very dull. Anyone that's an old PLD player has to get used to this new type of thinking flow. For the most part, filler is brainless (The exception being that situationally you can run out for 1 gcd during filler now for an out mechanic if you swap Holy Spirit and Atonement during filler) and burst is when you turn your brain on and collect happiness for doing things correctly.

The AoE is better being a 3-step instead of a 2-step combo, but PLD has lost its damage advantage over other tanks in 2-target scenarios with the loss of its DoTs.

The DV changes are just simply a QoL upgrade that was long overdue, as old DV would inconvenience healers to use a GCD heal if the shielding was out of magic phase. (I'm a firm believer that no job should take the fun out of playing any other job - BLM being the worst offender of this, by far, but that's another rant for another day)

Visually, goring blade does not look like a 700 potency ability. And this is just awful visual clarity for buffs that should've been on a job gauge like visual:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...0526/image.png

So, overall, the rework is neutral in my opinion. Each new thing they introduced has associated jank with it or a clear downside/shortcoming over old PLD that cancels out the good.


How will this be viewed by the community?
Like I mentioned before, this rework probably miffed older PLD players (no one likes being bad at a job they were once good at, and PLDs are an extreme case of this), and my assumption is that the job will still fail to attract players. So now we're in a situation where things are essentially the same, but the old playerbase is angry, and there is no new playerbase for PLD.


I fully expect a 2nd rework in the future or significant changes come 7.0 to round out the job in its current state.

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Originally Posted by Plain_Est

I fully expect a 2nd rework in the future or significant changes come 7.0 to round out the job in its current state.

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Same here I at least hope we get more changes throughout the patches or a Significant overhaul in 7.0, I don't think current PLD is "sustainable" in it's current design or how it plays but, it's actually got a lot of positives going for it, I think Divine might and how req were handled was Great, but the issue comes when we look at goring blade and fight or flight, early PLD generally gives this idea of PLD being a "boring tank" Not to mention the sheer amount of buttons that are just taking up space on PLD, I feel like the current PLD we got is more or less been rushed because of how quickly they needed to change it.

I also think they got to look at how they should change abilities on PLD going forth, Situational Utility like Cover, Clemency or Shield Bash while Interesting a lot of the time they fail to be useful, Which I'd say is "fine" but PLD's a Job already suffering from space, I'm afraid if they're not going to be improved upon they could just be removed for the sake of new abilities in 7.0, Which cover and clemency I don't really want to go, both fill the Job identity aspects of PLD, but I'm hoping that you might be actively using them more.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Early PLD generally gives this idea of PLD being a "boring tank" Not to mention the sheer amount of buttons that are just taking up space on PLD, I feel like the current PLD we got is more or less been rushed because of how quickly they needed to change it.

I also think they got to look at how they should change abilities on PLD going forth, Situational Utility like Cover, Clemency or Shield Bash while Interesting a lot of the time they fail to be useful, Which I'd say is "fine" but PLD's a Job already suffering from space, I'm afraid if they're not going to be improved upon they could just be removed for the sake of new abilities in 7.0, Which cover and clemency I don't really want to go, both fill the Job identity aspects of PLD, but I'm hoping that you might be actively using them more.

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I'm not sure if early PLD is a bad representation though. The current PLD is the least engaging of the tanks for me. It has 5 meaningful GCDs per minute, and it just generally feels boring compared to any other tank. At least before, each GCD mattered and you had the distinct phases of your rotation. Now it feels like a Gunbreaker before you get continuation...



Regarding the situational utility, I apologize if this sounds like I'm going on a rant, but I find it very strange that you say "Situational Utility like Cover, Clemency or Shield Bash while Interesting a lot of the time they fail to be useful" as that's essentially what being a situational utility is. Sometimes it's useful, other times it's not. Situational utility will rarely be useful in an optimized context where people are playing nearly perfectly. Those abilities are for when things go sideways and you need some extra breathing room or to cover the healer to let them LB3.

When it comes to situational utility, should we say the same thing about Shirk being redundant because you can just turn off your stance before your co-tank provokes? Or is it useless because most of the content in the game doesn't require tank swaps? I don't personally find it useless, but the same logic applies in both contexts.

If people don't find cover/clemency/shield bash useful, it's perfectly find to just not bind them and free up 1-3 slots on their hotbars. That's far more healthy than outright removing them to "free up space". Though, personally, I don't find that PLD has that many abilities. I could comfortably fit another 10 or so abilities before I get concerned with space.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Mitigation and defensive tools can't be reliant on other players because it takes away any agency you have. Ask any Dark Knight prior to 6.1 the thrill that had doing P3S. Pretty much every PF strat required both tanks to invuln. So healers knew Living Dead needed to be heal. Was it? Nope! I and many Dark Knights can attest to be left to die to their own invuln because healers either couldn't heal it or simply refused. While Veil was nowhere near as punishing, the same principle applies. In nearly every scenario, it was ignored due to the raidwides not hitting hard enough to necessitate extra shielding. Especially not when it came at the cost of damage. You can turn your nose up at people for refusing to lose one GCD. I'd rather have consistency.

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You can pretend MMOs didn't exist before XIV or whatever but that's simply not true. I was there. lol All you people are advocating for is making jobs more boring/brain dead because it would either hurt your parse or because you're too inconvenienced by playing a multiplayer game like it was intended - with other people. But it's fine. More people are coming around to it. Give it two more expansions or so till it's even more blatantly obvious. Haha

Honestly, one FFXI job had more creativity in it then an entire role in XIV. I shudder to think what SE would do to PUP if it ever were to come. /shudder Oh well. The stories are fun and savage makes me see the little nuances in job design so it's okay-ish. But for an MMO it's still sad to see.

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Originally Posted by nia_saeli

Regarding the situational utility, I apologize if this sounds like I'm going on a rant, but I find it very strange that you say "Situational Utility like Cover, Clemency or Shield Bash while Interesting a lot of the time they fail to be useful" as that's essentially what being a situational utility is. Sometimes it's useful, other times it's not. Situational utility will rarely be useful in an optimized context where people are playing nearly perfectly. Those abilities are for when things go sideways and you need some extra breathing room or to cover the healer to let them LB3.

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It feels like you missed the point on my "Situational utility" point, Just take it off your hotbar is also a bad solution because theirs cases where they're needed just not often enough, Cover is a good example of an ability that could be made into something better, the current version is too restrictive with its gauge cost and ranged, if it was more useable and had more situations to use it, I think that would be a net positive to the Job.

Clemency can be argued as a actual ability that's useful, but I want more for the ability, it makes sense for the Job identity of PLD to actively be using this ability more, I'm sure theirs ways of balancing out clemency, you look at warrior who can heal massive amounts for a target, or even regen the entire party, oh yeah has the shortest invul, what does PLD get? I guess passage of arms? which is kind of not always easy to find a spot to use it in, unlike most mitigations, I want PLD to have the utility of actively helping/healing allies generally, it could be apart of your MP management for the Job.

I don't know why you'd say PLD's boring, least engaging and not want better for the Job, I want the job to feel more Engaging then it's ever been, be that through both a intresting DPS rotation and Utility/support kit, right now you look at PLD its full of a lot of downsides, while having situational/unreliable upsides, The Job design with goring blade and how fof works, doesn't fit this new design well, I personally want to see a PLD that is the bringer of strong supportive options like it deserves to be.

"Free up space" is subjective but many people have shared the same feelings towards PLD having too much bloat, My PLD hotbar is full as it could be, Not freeing up space at this point means PLD can't evolve in 7.0, The new design is decent but it needs work, You may be free with space but a lot of people are struggling to fit everything on, when clearly things easily could be reworked and merged.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I don't know why you'd say PLD's boring, least engaging and not want better for the Job, I want the job to feel more Engaging then it's ever been, be that through both a intresting DPS rotation and Utility/support kit, right now you look at PLD its full of a lot of downsides, while having situational/unreliable upsides, The Job design with goring blade and how fof works, doesn't fit this new design well, I personally want to see a PLD that is the bringer of strong supportive options like it deserves to be.

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I absolutely would love them to make PLD more engaging and fun (if it could be considered good, even better), but we had a fun PLD prior to 6.3 and SE rarely ever reverts their changes once they have decided on a direction. Case and point is Cover, Stormblood-era cover had no gauge cost and reduced damage taken by the target by 20%. They actively removed that functionality at a later time (ShB?).

While it would be awesome to be able to actively use clemency in optimized environments, I highly doubt that it would come for free. I expect that they would either attach a cooldown to it (not great) or nerf the healing by half (also not great).

Your ideas are cool, and it would be nice if PLD could play like that, but I am just skeptical that SE would ever give us any playstyle like that without some kind of (probably major) drawbacks.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

"Free up space" is subjective but many people have shared the same feelings towards PLD having too much bloat, My PLD hotbar is full as it could be, Not freeing up space at this point means PLD can't evolve in 7.0, The new design is decent but it needs work, You may be free with space but a lot of people are struggling to fit everything on, when clearly things easily could be reworked and merged.

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I will concede that I don't know how other people configure their bars. I might be an outlier, I've just never had an issue fitting my abilities on my bars.

Job "evolution" is a bit overrated, imo. Most jobs didn't really evolve much this expac. Most got small adjustments and some flashy abilities, but a lot of it has started to feel tacked on just because "they needed something flashy for the action trailer". PLD was one of the few where the addition of the flashy attacks and updates really made sense (moreso than primal rend at least). But that's all in the past. Regardless of how much I disliked the changes, it doesn't make a difference to the future course. All I can do is voice my opinion here, but I highly doubt it will change anything.

In the end, as much as I'd like them to improve PLD, the version of PLD that I liked is already gone and most likely won't come back. As a result, I am probably overly sensitive to getting more changes that would make the job even worse.

IMO PLD isn't PLD if it cant revive people and not block magic damage at all

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Originally Posted by Oizen

IMO PLD isn't PLD if it cant revive people and not block magic damage at all

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Honestly; I am suprised Paladins do not have some form of Raise. As it stands we got 2 magic DPS with raise as well.

PLDS Used to be able raise, but they removed that as well.

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Originally Posted by JuicyHeals

PLDS Used to be able raise, but they removed that as well.

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They only had an out of combat raise, they could not raise in combat (Conjurer required a trait to do that).

Paladins used to have res outside of battle originally but SE removed it since made it too easy in POTD lol. PLD have fallen so much now since 6.3. The animations for skills are so broken looking to watch now forced it feels like. I believe all pld really should get was potency buffs to skills if anything. There trying to make every class to simple and modern its becoming an issue. Little moderaztion is ok but too much can hurt the game. FFXIV has its roots and SE should stick to those and update little by little. As for PLD they should waited till next expansion and really do a survery on how people really feel. PLD now feels so empty and broken. Each Tank should have that feeling you want to play it not feel the same as others. That goes for any class in the game really. SE needs to open there eyes and revert PLD back to before 6.3 For me I played FFXIV since 1.0 and well some of us Veterans are not liking the simplifying classes too much. My second class I play Nin is broke with Mudra at the moment. That leaves me one class I still like playing since my joy and fun was taking away by foolish choices to overhaul PLD. All that work on animations done in the past just thrown out is sad to see. I know the dev's are trying. If the class is not broken don't fix it. Old saying right there. I just like to have my PLD back.