Bring Back Kaiten

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

No translators? Dang, I guess that's too much for an indie company like square Enix.

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Yah, no kidding right?

That said, that's why I am a little hesitant to trust that information... As I stated, don't really have a source.

But if its true, its a bummer for what is essentially one of the current most successful mmos...

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

The fantasy of Samurai requiring to charge/prep large hitting attacks. Breathing in energy, fully focused and exhaling for the moment of impact. Remember the Samurai of the Stormblood Trailer? Often I read SAM as the " Melee version of BLM ", a Melee Caster.

This was taken from us, to fix a problem that didn't exist. What did they fix by doing this? Nothing. Or Nothing that matters from my PoV. Foreseeable changes in the Future, isn't now. How about not have changed how SAM was, until the changes were ready? What next asinine excuse am I supposed to accept?

Could also do the easy thing...

• No one complained about SAM pre6.1
• No one was unhappy with SAM pre6.1
• In fact I can't point out flaws of SAM pre6.1
• SAM was better pre6.1 vs post6.1

Now 6.1 SAM feels horrible... I wonder how to fix it? Sounds like a Revert to Post6.1, at 6.08 where we were completely content.

Then again a billion dollar indie company can't make that happen ( while making plenty of other changes every other patch ). Great asinine excuse, how about at least addressing it?

• Gotta address ultimate
• Gotta address housing
• Gotta address ToS, again
• Gotta address Adventure Plate lewds
• Gotta address x y z
• Gotta address being sorry, yet again

Great, now... when are they going to stop dodging the bullet and address the Feedback on our JOBS!?

" Give it a try " they said - " We gave it a try " we said
" Give us feedback " they said - " We gave our feedback " we said.

Give back our Kaiten

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The Sad Part is, the Samurai Rotation feels reverted to lvl50 but with Kenki needlessly tagged on, because Shinten/Kyuten ect are just bonus attacks to skim off excess Kenki..
I asked a Friend who studied Japanese and Japonology how to ask for Kaiten's return politely, we came to this conclusion:

回天を返してくださいませんか

which roughly translates to 'Please give Kaiten back', as asked to a Superior, because Devs.

I started playing ninja today and it felt pretty good. Can finally stop playing this husk of a job called samurai.

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Originally Posted by WorldPeacElbow

I started playing ninja today and it felt pretty good. Can finally stop playing this husk of a job called samurai.

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The Mug/Trick Attack Switcheroo isn't as Bad as getting one if not the most important skills removed^^
+ It's quite easy to deal with that change aswell, Samurai is a different Fantasy than Ninja though..
And Samurai serves a Fantasy that got it's fun currently removed. Yet Ninja has great Glamour Options!
I also play Ninja, mainly as secondary DPS in the shadows (so to speak) but I'll subbing NIN aswell when the Pain of Monotony grows too strong while progging DRS
I'm also frankly getting slightly tired of trying to get the attention of the Devs so they rethink or dare to roll back all those changes of 6.1 because, Samurai is now the most braindead and unrewarding Job in the entire Game:
The Guaranteed Crit is a Nice Idea but getting rid of Job Identity Defining Abilities is something to avoid! Kaiten was a unique Skill that required mastery through careful resource Management (tl;dr: THINK!) Now Thinking isn't required anymore. You got 1 Enemy and 25 Kenki? Shinten!(or Senei every 2minutes), you got more enemies and 25 Kenki? Kyuten!(or Guren every 2 minutes)
Tenka Goken at first I didn't even noticed that change.. I just noticed that Tenka Goken is shorter.. then I looked closer and saw it's a Circle AoE now that requires no target to active (tl;dr: LESS THINKING) Ohh Great! it's not like that I had Fuko, Mangetsu, Oka, Kyuten AND Mumyo Shoha to do just that, no please make so I have to think less! (obvious sarcasm!!)..
I'm listening to Collective Consciousness from the Metal Gear Reveangence OST and this Song thumbs up the entire situation of the Samurai and maybe even the Game and the Community itself.

No do not bring Kaiten back please!

Remain forevermore & remain steady with 6.1.

Finish this unrelenting crusade of similar posts

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Originally Posted by Vencio

No do not bring Kaiten back please!

Remain forevermore & remain steady with 6.1.

Finish this unrelenting crusade of similar posts

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Thanks for the bump :)

It won’t happen,

Just enjoy the job as it is,

It still is effective

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Originally Posted by Vencio

It won’t happen,

Just enjoy the job as it is,

It still is effective

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You sound almost scared they will bring it back. If they do will you still be riding this "square can do no wrong" train I wonder?

Return Kaiten

No, rather growing such interests as to see how persistent most you are with something that’s no longer present,

Almost making Kaiten as a Martyr of some sorts

I think he just likes Kaiten being gone because he thinks if the job is dumbed down enough, maybe he can parse better than grey or green for a change. (nope)

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

I think he just likes Kaiten being gone because he thinks if the job is dumbed down enough, maybe he can parse better than grey or green for a change. (nope)

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The man's got brain damage
But hey thanks for bumping the threads <3

which is that Enpi doesn't eat Meikyo Shisui anymore. That's also the only Change I wanna keep for Samurai after 6.1

Kaiten still has to return! I do not know why they would comprimize on Resource Utility it doesn't make anysense to dump down Jobclasses, and also what I heared from so many Samurai Players on Youtube regarding "merging Shoha 1 and Shoha 2 so it's AoE with Falloff Damage" NO! Shoha is your Single Target Skill that you do on Bosses, Mumyo Shoha is your AoE Skill that you do for Trash, simple as that If you consider Shoha and Shoha 2 as button bloat, guess what, the entire Meditation Resource could considered Button Bloat, which it's not! (I mean think about it, you can perform an extra attack for every 3rd Iaijutsu. does it make sense? not really, but it's a part of the Samurai and here to stay!)
Also why do so many Samurai disregard the Option to have a Bonus Attack for Single Target and AoE each? at the moment Ogi Namikiri stands alone as Ikishoten Trigger and again I will predict that we get a Single Target Ogi in 7.0 Because it makes sense to offer the Option and it was just like that with Guren and Senei, but what do i use Ogi Namikiri then? Simple! AoE and to clearify any upcomming Questions:
Lightning Round Explaination:
Guren? = AoE
Senei? = Single Target
Shoha? = Single Target
Mumyo Shoha? = AoE
Ogi Namikiri? = AoE

I hope this clears things up..
also, if they revert the changes of Tenka Goken, it wouldn't be so bad, because the old Tenka Goken required more thinking and of course the return of Kaiten! I hope the DevTeam's silence means that they look into it, otherwise Kenki will feel so useless
My Idea to encommmendate the guaranteed Crit would've been that Kaiten makes the following attack Direct Hit! which may wouldn't help the Samurai's Weak State much but also wouldn't have made Kenki absolutely monotonous like it is now.

Though I'd like to know, if there is anyone, who geniuently likes the Kaiten Removal to explain thoroughly why it's a Good Change. Let's have a Respectful Discussion.

I already explained how it destroyed the Kenki Iaijutsu Synergy+++, so please explain to me why that aspect had to be scrapped, personally I think the Kaiten Removal was a fatal misunderstanding from the Devs (who should know better.. or the majority of Samurai players played this Job wrong since 2017, which I do not believe to be the case!)

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

which is that Enpi doesn't eat Meikyo Shisui anymore. That's also the only Change I wanna keep for Samurai after 6.1

Kaiten still has to return! I do not know why they would comprimize on Resource Utility it doesn't make anysense to dump down Jobclasses, and also what I heared from so many Samurai Players on Youtube regarding "merging Shoha 1 and Shoha 2 so it's AoE with Falloff Damage" NO! Shoha is your Single Target Skill that you do on Bosses, Mumyo Shoha is your AoE Skill that you do for Trash, simple as that If you consider Shoha and Shoha 2 as button bloat, guess what, the entire Meditation Resource could considered Button Bloat, which it's not! (I mean think about it, you can perform an extra attack for every 3rd Iaijutsu. does it make sense? not really, but it's a part of the Samurai and here to stay!)
Also why do so many Samurai disregard the Option to have a Bonus Attack for Single Target and AoE each? at the moment Ogi Namikiri stands alone as Ikishoten Trigger and again I will predict that we get a Single Target Ogi in 7.0 Because it makes sense to offer the Option

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The main reason anyone suggested combining Shoha 1 and 2 is because of the initial answers given to us by the devs about their reasoning behind Kaiten being taken away.

It's just a compromise any SAM player could point to as it being semi-redundant. Yes, they exist specifically for separate occasions, but that doesn't mean it can't be considered bloat in the grand scheme of things if a core part of the main rotation is taken away just to flatten the rest of the kit and keep buttons that all do the same thing under situational purposes.

Personally, I think Meditation should be more involved. It could be like a secondary Sen system how the iaijutsu button changes based on number of Sen, if Meditation was increased, there could be a single button that changes based on total number of Meditation, as it currently exists, anyway.

Meanwhile, on that same argument of offering compromise solutions to excuses such as bloat, Senei and Guren are much in the same light. Since they share a cooldown with each other and last as long as Ikishoten, they could easily let Shinten and Kyuten upgrade to Senei and Guren when Ikishoten is used.

There are other jobs in the game that already do just that with their kit, and it would make sense with how the kenki cost was made all the same between those four skills.

It lessens the amount of 'bloat' that anyone could potentially perceive in the kit while retaining everything that it already has and also lessens the possibility of cooldown drift.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a change like that, but I'm also the guy that wants Seigan and Merciful Eyes back, and for kenki generation to be tied to positionals like originally.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

Holy wat. That's a very interesting (depressing) comparison point. I knew Shinten spam was real, but more than Hakaze?! gd

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Well hakaze is a gcd that start the 3 combo that generate around 45 kenki which is enough for 1 kaiten and 1 shinten if im not wrong. Now with kaiten removed, all kenki will spent on shinten. Combined that with all kenki generated from other source such as meikyo, ishikoten, hakagure (to align raid buff window), third eye, meditation. You have so much kenki and only 1 skill to spend them on which leading to spamming shinten
Btw if you see this SE, this is not how you design a job. When anyone who play it at decent/follow proper rotation can point out the flaw and demand for revert. You at least have a decency to let us know that you got the feedback, work on some way to address it. Not sit on your ass and watch the forum burn. Im new to the forum and all i ever post is about sam. You know you done fk it up when people create acc just to talk about sam change

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

The main reason anyone suggested combining Shoha 1 and 2 is because of the initial answers given to us by the devs about their reasoning behind Kaiten being taken away.

It's just a compromise any SAM player could point to as it being semi-redundant. Yes, they exist specifically for separate occasions, but that doesn't mean it can't be considered bloat in the grand scheme of things if a core part of the main rotation is taken away just to flatten the rest of the kit and keep buttons that all do the same thing under situational purposes.

Personally, I think Meditation should be more involved. It could be like a secondary Sen system how the iaijutsu button changes based on number of Sen, if Meditation was increased, there could be a single button that changes based on total number of Meditation, as it currently exists, anyway.

Meanwhile, on that same argument of offering compromise solutions to excuses such as bloat, Senei and Guren are much in the same light. Since they share a cooldown with each other and last as long as Ikishoten, they could easily let Shinten and Kyuten upgrade to Senei and Guren when Ikishoten is used.

There are other jobs in the game that already do just that with their kit, and it would make sense with how the kenki cost was made all the same between those four skills.

It lessens the amount of 'bloat' that anyone could potentially perceive in the kit while retaining everything that it already has and also lessens the possibility of cooldown drift.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a change like that, but I'm also the guy that wants Seigan and Merciful Eyes back, and for kenki generation to be tied to positionals like originally.

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The Bolded Part thumbs up my point though, again I look at Shoha/Shoha2,Guren/Senei as Options to spend resources on, not as Button Bloat. In Shadowbringers I remember someone playing Samurai saying that it would be better for raiding if Senei was the lvl70 Skill and I also banked on AoE Shoha coming in Endwalker (I should've done a Big Money Bet xDDD) though again on Resources:
We have Kenki Single Target with: Shinten and Seneic(2min CD) and Kenki AoE with: Kyuten (Circle) and Guren (2min CD, Line AoE),
we have Meditation Single Target with: Shoha and Meditation AoE with: Mumyo Shoha and currently
we have Ikishoten Trigger (AoE Only): Ogi Namikiri, which makes me think that we get a Single Target Ogi in 7.0

Maybe I am just too familiar with switching Interfaced/Layouts for those 2 Situations, like I showed with my Interfaces on Page 2 on this Thread.
I also like to line up Senei or Guren with Ikishoten, it just works so well. If also if I get 3 Meditation Stacks with Ogi Namikiri I like to Shoha in between and finish it with Kaeshi Namikiri, I call that the Big Kahuna Combo.
The Meditation Resource I think it's fine, It's way more useful than it was at Shadowbringers Launch, though in my wild imagination I like to think that 7.0 we get 5 stacks and a Buffed Shoha and Mumyo Shoha.
So to I think it's fine having an Single Target and an AoE Rotation/Interface, even if they differ slightly, as long as Resources and be spend on both situations.

Hehe, at least they changed The Counter so that it still has a reward, even if the Extra Kenki is now meaningless and I have the feeling that positionals in general will bite the dust in 7.0
I mean.. if I have to do a a serious positional attack to do.. I press True North to make it save! I'm not a fan of the Boss turning while I do the stuff

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

The Bolded Part thumbs up my point though, again I look at Shoha/Shoha2,Guren/Senei as Options to spend resources on, not as Button Bloat. In Shadowbringers I remember someone playing Samurai saying that it would be better for raiding if Senei was the lvl70 Skill and I also banked on AoE Shoha coming in Endwalker (I should've done a Big Money Bet xDDD) though again on Resources:
We have Kenki Single Target with: Shinten and Seneic(2min CD) and Kenki AoE with: Kyuten (Circle) and Guren (2min CD, Line AoE),
we have Meditation Single Target with: Shoha and Meditation AoE with: Mumyo Shoha and currently
we have Ikishoten Trigger (AoE Only): Ogi Namikiri, which makes me think that we get a Single Target Ogi in 7.0

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I wasn't arguing your point. I'm just pointing out the reasoning behind the suggestions made.

I don't consider it bloat either and I play on console/controller. But you can't deny that if you boil down their purposes, they're redundant and could just as easily be made into a targeted aoe with falloff damage to preserve the action while reducing the number of buttons that exist, as a compromise to certain excuses made about why Kaiten was removed.

Never said you were wrong. But the fact that they're identical skills for highly situational moments means they're redundant at the end of the day. When 70 was the cap and we had Guren, we used that on single target bosses and in aoe pulls. It's the same as BLM having a really powerful aoe spell at the end of their rotation back then. Then both were given a similar skill made just for single target. While cool, and making it a choice, it was technically unnecessary.

I like having all of them exist. But I was not trying to say your view is wrong, just explaining the reasoning you seemed to question in the earlier post.

Haven't been subbed for a few days. Might just resub when/if they bring back kaiten

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Originally Posted by Karious

Haven't been subbed for a few days. Might just resub when/if they bring back kaiten

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Well, getting Kaiten back depends on if Yoshida thinks current subscribers are more valuable than whatever imaginary "single player FF fans" (that will definitely pay a sub for a single player experience, because it definitely makes sense to pay full box price plus a monthly fee to access the game as a purely single-player one) that Yoshida seems to delude himself into thinking will come and pour money into this "game". Although at this point, calling this a "game" is inaccurate; it's more akin to an insult that took the form of a video game.

Bumping this, Kaiten needs to come back, the 6.1 changes are atrocious and killed all my enthusiasm for the job. Please don't break jobs like that, really.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

I wasn't arguing your point. I'm just pointing out the reasoning behind the suggestions made.

I don't consider it bloat either and I play on console/controller. But you can't deny that if you boil down their purposes, they're redundant and could just as easily be made into a targeted aoe with falloff damage to preserve the action while reducing the number of buttons that exist, as a compromise to certain excuses made about why Kaiten was removed.

Never said you were wrong. But the fact that they're identical skills for highly situational moments means they're redundant at the end of the day. When 70 was the cap and we had Guren, we used that on single target bosses and in aoe pulls. It's the same as BLM having a really powerful aoe spell at the end of their rotation back then. Then both were given a similar skill made just for single target. While cool, and making it a choice, it was technically unnecessary.

I like having all of them exist. But I was not trying to say your view is wrong, just explaining the reasoning you seemed to question in the earlier post.

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hmm they are redundant for utilizing the same resource is it that? don't worry, no hate to you or anything angry like that, I may just adepted to deal with Shinten/Senei/Kyuten/Guren and let it convert into muscle memory though not as deep as Kaiten obviously and they don't need to merge Shinten with Senei and Kyuten with Guren (trading a Circle AoE with a Line AoE is a bit fishy imo) I mean I love my AoE Interface as shown on Page 2^^

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Originally Posted by AsiTsurugi

Well, getting Kaiten back depends on if Yoshida thinks current subscribers are more valuable than whatever imaginary "single player FF fans" (that will definitely pay a sub for a single player experience, because it definitely makes sense to pay full box price plus a monthly fee to access the game as a purely single-player one) that Yoshida seems to delude himself into thinking will come and pour money into this "game". Although at this point, calling this a "game" is inaccurate; it's more akin to an insult that took the form of a video game.

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going a bit offtopic here but at this point they just should do an Offline Mode (that requires no sub!) I'm not a fan of the ARR Dungeon redesigns, sure the Lighting is mostly Great but Totorak isn't a Dungeon anymore (aside of the slow down goo removal which is good) but Totorak's Dungeon Map is now a Big LS, no branching paths (which made it quicker at the start) and the new Castrum seriously lacks scope!! (and I dislike that we kill Gaius now, his Rage Quit at 19% has so cute and the new 20% Phase Transition of the Ultima Weapon just makes no sense at all) if they merge the 2 Castrum Dungeons into 1 Dungeon, it would fix the scope problem.. but also think about it, the old Castrum was more like a Stealth Mission, back then you just had to pull the 2 guards on each post, turn off those red lights and the rest of the guards would walk away, now true lately everyone pulled everything but it's still sad to get rid of nuance trade for monotony.. even the new strategies after the unskippable Cutscene Patch that Players came up with were good! remember the stun strat? Guess what! that part of the dungeon is cut, entirely tl;dr.: Old Castrum was more like Metal Gear were new Castrum is more like a CoD Tube Level, most offensive to me is funnily enough the Brayfolx Redesign, see, the Last Boss was the first wall I had to overcome, I played Tank when I started the game and that Boss teached me to move the Boss out of the poison puddle where he heals himself but now he doesn't heal himself anymore, no just dodge AoEs, gg no lesson to learn anymore, so what that tells me is don't learn from mistakes, just wait 8 or 9 years until the Devs just patch it out to make the game even more easy... sorry if I'm bragging but.. I beat Patch Day Vishap and that Fight could easily be added as an Unreal Encounter today! with the difference that it was real! Vishap had a lil bit more HP than the Boss from T8, which was wild, do I want Patch Day Vishap back to roadblock Heavensward? No, but as an optional Gimmick Fight it would be nice

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

Bumping this, Kaiten needs to come back, the 6.1 changes are atrocious and killed all my enthusiasm for the job. Please don't break jobs like that, really.

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that Enpi doesn't eat Meikyo Shisui is good but yes, they have to bring back Kaiten!
on another note.. is it just me or does it happen to more Samurai Players that they now sit on 20 Kenki before they do an Iaijutsu with nothing to do with it?

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

that Enpi doesn't eat Meikyo Shisui is good but yes, they have to bring back Kaiten!
on another note.. is it just me or does it happen to more Samurai Players that they now sit on 20 Kenki before they do an Iaijutsu with nothing to do with it?

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Fair enough, although enpi is very rarely useful so it's really a nice scenario. But yeah might as well keep that.

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

Fair enough, although enpi is very rarely useful so it's really a nice scenario. But yeah might as well keep that.

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it's quite a good spam option for ranged situation ^^
it also would be cool if Enpi granted you a buffed Gyoten.. or that they Buff Enpi into Reppuken!.. though that depends if SNK is cool with that ^^

Patch 6.11a announced .. New Hope

Playing Samurai without Kaiten feels like playing without a job stone. It's an empty, soulless experience.

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Originally Posted by Martynek

Playing Samurai without Kaiten feels like playing without a job stone. It's an empty, soulless experience.

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Yes! This is the perfect description!

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Originally Posted by Martynek

Playing Samurai without Kaiten feels like playing without a job stone. It's an empty, soulless experience.

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I don't know how nobody made that analogy yet, but hot damn that is so accurate.

i just leveled BLM to 90 like 4 days ago, and i disagree that ley lines being a button isnt essential to the class' feel, but other than that i entirely agree.

i miss old SAM D:

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Originally Posted by TyrAtatoskr

i just leveled BLM to 90 like 4 days ago, and i disagree that ley lines being a button isnt essential to the class' feel, but other than that i entirely agree.

i miss old SAM D:

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Leylines is so integral to BLM identity in 14 it's iconic at this point. People who've touched BLM immediately go "oh hey it's Leylines!" when they find spells like Terra Magia in Elden Ring, if it wasn't an intentional homage to begin with. They also had it's equivalent in in the FF7 remake, I wouldn't be surprised if it's going to be a series staple that this game contributed.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Leylines is so integral to BLM identity in 14 it's iconic at this point. People who've touched BLM immediately go "oh hey it's Leylines!" when they find spells like Terra Magia in Elden Ring, if it wasn't an intentional homage to begin with. They also had it's equivalent in in the FF7 remake, I wouldn't be surprised if it's going to be a series staple that this game contributed.

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yeah I talked about this aswell and I agree, well placed Ley-Lines showcase the Blackmage's Skill^^
.. though I'd like if Ley-Lines would be a Partybuff.. like Casters gain Spellspeed and Melees gain Attack Speed^^

4.: The 2 minute Bursts:
Late in Shadowbringers, I noticed the beauty of Off Global Cool Downs lining up. In Endwalker it got changed that some heavy hitter are on a 2 minute cool down, and then I noticed.. Ikishoten lines up with Senei and Guren! means I can do Ikishoten into Senei (or Guren) All the Time, which I think is nice. In Endwalker that got expanded with Ogi Namikiri, turning Ikishoten into (I call it) The Ogi Trigger which lets me do the following Combo: Ikishoten>Senei>Kaiten>Ogi>Kaeshi all 2 minutes! What I wanna say is, thinking about it I personally do not agree with getting rid of the 2minute busters, first Kyuten is Circle, Guren is Line, do you wanna get rid of more Unique AoEs? playing through SB on an alt it pains me to see how rando Samurai NPC Enemies have a Bigger Tenka Goken than I have! Screw Circle Goken!.. also getting rid of the 2minute busters means we don't have any other skills to line up with Ikishoten.. Ogi gets triggered by Iki so that doesn't count. so again, I'm fine with Off-Gobal Cool Downs lining up together and that design aspect is something I like to have preserved.

5.: The Ogi
At the time of this Post we only have 1 Ogi Skill: Ogi Namikiri.
Ogi Namikiri is a Conal AoE Attack which in my Opinion might contributed to the myth of Samurai having Button Bloat.
Q: What's the Special thing about Ogi?
A: Ogi Skills need Activation through Ikishoten and interestingly behaive like Iaijutsu, because they get affected by Kaiten! (<- which is important to keep in mind, once Kaiten comes back!) In Addition of being just like an Iaijutsu Ogi have a Cast and remarkably turn into their Tsubamegaeshi Version on the Same Button! (which kind of makes way for the suggestion of turning Tsubamegaeshi into a Trait for Iaijutsu, turning Iaijutsu into a Double Tab Skill, kind of how Illusion Jump works for Dragoon right now!)

My Suspicion as an Arguement for Removing Kaiten might be because Ogi can be enhanced by Kaiten which.. if that was the exact reason for Removing Kaiten.. Just make Ogi not be affected by Kaiten!! which may would go against the Utility of Kaiten to Utilize Kenki to Boost Damage (to Kaiten the Ogi was a bit of a Learning Curve for me, I admit but it was a Learning Curve I took gratefully! and it was taken from me and many other Samurai Player in 6.1!) The thing is I do not see it, Samurai without Kaiten, maybe in a thorough rework.. but why? Samurai worked, it still is playable now but not as enjoyable as it used to be with feeble reasoning The Synergy of Iaijutsu and Kenki is Destroyed, which is my main reason for disliking the direction and execution of the 6.1 Change for Samurai (6.1 PvP Samurai was it's saving grace.. but I don't play FFXIV for PvP.. I play Overwatch for PvP, Total Mayhem to be exact) was there even serious commentary about Button Bloat on Samurai? (outside of turning Shoha into AoE Only, which I also disagree because it would remove options how to use resources)

Again: I just want that they Bring Back Kaiten!

So basically someone slightly messed up with the job design not realizing the a skill was either too powerful or action bloated in conjunction with Kaiten, and instead of doing anything reasonable about a flashy but ultimately unnecessary 6.0 skill, they instead panic remove a core skill since the job's conception?

That might actually be a reasonable explanation of the dev's thought process. Rather blame the old design than take a hard look at the current direction in the new baby expansion.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

So basically someone slightly messed up with the job design not realizing the a skill was either too powerful or action bloated in conjunction with Kaiten, and instead of doing anything reasonable about a flashy but ultimately unnecessary 6.0 skill, they instead panic remove a core skill since the job's conception?

That might actually be a reasonable explanation of the dev's thought process. Rather blame the old design than take a hard look at the current direction in the new baby expansion.

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I wouldn't say that they messed up with Ogi, they basicly added a New Skill to the 2minute circle, which in my opinion is okay, the thing that annoys me about it that Kenki is now only used for the Kenki Attacks and nothing else. Though.. I also do not see where the Samurai Rotation was generally bloated or felt alienatingly weird (why break what works just fine?) Ogi Namikiri is the same as Guren, means in 7.0 there will be an Single Target Ogi added, why? because It's Okay to have Options and the Old Kenki was utilized to amp up your (mostly) Iaijutsu Damage, which gave the Player more responsibility to boost their damage on their own by mastering Kenki Management, Now it's just "Hey! do you have enough Kenki?Ye..Shinten!"

.. you know..that baby expansion comment kinda slaps, good job xD

Yeah, I don't think it's actually a flaw if you lose relatively a lot of DPS not using buffs properly during your burst. But I can see how the dev team under the current philosophy of keeping everything as forgiving as possible looked at the 1 extra required Kaiten in the rotation and decided it was a step too punishing. There are other options, but regime says keep it simple enough, so I guess when in doubt dumb it down.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

I wasn't arguing your point. I'm just pointing out the reasoning behind the suggestions made.

I don't consider it bloat either and I play on console/controller. But you can't deny that if you boil down their purposes, they're redundant and could just as easily be made into a targeted aoe with falloff damage to preserve the action while reducing the number of buttons that exist, as a compromise to certain excuses made about why Kaiten was removed.

Never said you were wrong. But the fact that they're identical skills for highly situational moments means they're redundant at the end of the day. When 70 was the cap and we had Guren, we used that on single target bosses and in aoe pulls. It's the same as BLM having a really powerful aoe spell at the end of their rotation back then. Then both were given a similar skill made just for single target. While cool, and making it a choice, it was technically unnecessary.

I like having all of them exist. But I was not trying to say your view is wrong, just explaining the reasoning you seemed to question in the earlier post.

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but why stop there then.
plenty of other jobs have these redundant parts of their kit that could easily be done differently.
for example Paladin, you use Holy Shelltron on every tank buster, no exception, make it an passive trait. (taking the piss, but having "redundant" parts is neccessary like Kaiten being used before every Iaitsu)

their reasoning is just bad, but the thing that bothers me is that they are more than willing to actively rebalance PvP, but PvE need to wait 4 months for any decent job changes that needs to happen.
meanwhile, Kaitens removal has sparked mass outrage, MCH for example atm requires an ping mitigation 3rd party tool to work fine on higher than average ping.
meanwhile SE though goes hard on getting rid of most 3rd party tools (let's be real, people use them just the rule of "shut up about it" applies) but the fact that this is such an major issue, years after it's been known is just jarring.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

I wouldn't say that they messed up with Ogi, they basicly added a New Skill to the 2minute circle, which in my opinion is okay, the thing that annoys me about it that Kenki is now only used for the Kenki Attacks and nothing else. Though.. I also do not see where the Samurai Rotation was generally bloated or felt alienatingly weird (why break what works just fine?) Ogi Namikiri is the same as Guren, means in 7.0 there will be an Single Target Ogi added, why? because It's Okay to have Options and the Old Kenki was utilized to amp up your (mostly) Iaijutsu Damage, which gave the Player more responsibility to boost their damage on their own by mastering Kenki Management, Now it's just "Hey! do you have enough Kenki?Ye..Shinten!"

.. you know..that baby expansion comment kinda slaps, good job xD

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people have gone through every excuse they had at this point and only 1 makes sense.

the action/button bloat has been severely debunked.

the other was the DPS variance caused by high critical hits (which every job suffers under but only SAM got gutted, which by that alone is debunked)

the last was that the job balancer in question had difficulities balancing the job around Kaiten, so they removed it in favor of that. (lazy as all hell though)