Why do Mi’qote ears go through Snow’s hat but not Hrothgar ears?

Whatever Yoshida says doesnt matter because he held a gun inbetween the shoulderblades of the dev team pre-shb and TOLD them to make hrothgar the only race with different skulls, he TOLD them not to bother making an entire gearslot disappear from hrothgar and viera.
We know these are lameass excuses to not make things work properly because the dev team had to break into sehq on their time off to make glasses and circlets work so hrothgar and viera wouldnt be completely screwed over out of a gear slot.
We know the """"limitations""""" only exists for hrothgar, so much so that an entire expac later we still cant use our base racial hairs without buying a fantasia and changing our face, because they made two races poorly instead of the just race they allegedly wanted to make since hw.
And we know if every hrothgar unsubbed today Yoshida wouldnt care because we dont have double-digit player percentage.
So the only hope hrothgar can have is in 7.0 the graphical update will be kind.
Maybe we'll get more hair in endwalker patches but the entire x.1x series just passed and not once did they add ears back to new hroth options so I have 0 hope and have no reason to hope.

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Originally Posted by XiRon

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Yeah, I am pretty sure that is kind of how it is, I'd probably describe it differently though. Anyway, I was saying so in another thread the other day. It was "rigged from the start", as they say. Female viera and male hrothgar made with intentional limitations.

Like I was saying in a previous post, in an interview, he describes that viera would have to have their ears on their head like miqo'te.

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Q: With the two new races' unique heads, how will their headgear work?

A: It won't be displayed, because those face parts wouldn't work in FFXIV's system if headgear were involved. Even Viera ears would've had to be moved down to where Miqo'te ears are. (...)

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I mean, I'm no viera expert, like some players (only played FFXIV), but don't viera in the other games have ears there? Even if not, they could probably have figured something out (at least I'd hope so)!

Because SE decided to add a beast race with zero intention of either actually leaning into it being a beast race or giving it any parity with any of the other races customizability.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

Because SE decided to add a beast race with zero intention of either actually leaning into it being a beast race or giving it any parity with any of the other races customizability.

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No, the intention was there, for the face, but it was done in a way that completely compromised their ability to add hairs or headgear easier, apparently. As for customizability, yes I agree with you, the faces being deemed acceptable, just shows that, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I mean, I'm no viera expert, like some players (only played FFXIV), but don't viera in the other games have ears there? Even if not, they could probably have figured something out (at least I'd hope so)!

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Not a Viera expert either but
https://i.imgur.com/wx2u1Kh.png
Seems to me the only time Vieras have ever been represented with their ears a bit higher than they look like was on FF Tactics Advance 2. The RDM's hat has ears that start on the hat rather than her skull. And that's just artwork.
Apart from that? Every Viera had normal ears.

I don't know where Yoshida and co. hallucinated these ears being higher as a standard, but they need to lay off the Gysahl Greens. It's getting in the way of their game-making abilities.
It's not just Viera and Hrothgar suffering. Name one patch that hasn't had something really stupid since Endwalker Early Access.

I think Square just wants to stealthily smother this game. Either that or see just how low we'll sink. How far we'll make up excuses for them.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Name one patch that hasn't had something really stupid since Endwalker Early Access.

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To be fair, that's what, three patches? The devs are known to start something and usually leave it half finished, lol.
*leaves broken Lords of Vermillion machine in the middle of the Golden Saucer parking lot*

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

To be fair, that's what, three patches? The devs are known to start something and usually leave it half finished, lol.
*leaves broken Lords of Vermillion machine in the middle of the Golden Saucer parking lot*

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- Release was delayed
- Flooded Early Access that bled into the release proper
- Square refusing to take any fault for the errors for days until people showed them evidence
- Weird noise crackling glitches
- Yoshida having to defend the team's storytelling choices, suhc as Garlemald
- Dismissive attitude toward Hrothgar and their hairstyles
- Followed by announcing Legacy Races having a rehaul instead of actually fixing Hrothgar hairstyles
- An Extreme trial with false difficulty which directly contradicts their concerns about Hrothgar hairstyles
- A PvP system with game-breaking bugs and unfair advantages
- All about Housing
- A new menu called "beta" despite very much still operating as though it were an Alpha stage
- Yoshida making excuses for PvP BLM for some reason
- Everything related to Data Center travel

Now, not everything is "game breaking", but at this point they're just taking advantage of whatever little good faith they've got left.

"Features being incomplete" is normal for Square Enix, and has been since as long as I've been playing (mid-Heavensward). It's not ideal, but it wasn't this bad either. Every single patch in Endwalker has been just a crumbling mess with very few saving graces.

It's not "Oh it's only been 3 patches".
It's "Damn, this expansion has only had 3 patches so far and it's already this bad, with none of them being remotely acceptable".

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Not a Viera expert either but
https://i.imgur.com/wx2u1Kh.png
Seems to me the only time Vieras have ever been represented with their ears a bit higher than they look like was on FF Tactics Advance 2. The RDM's hat has ears that start on the hat rather than her skull. And that's just artwork.
Apart from that? Every Viera had normal ears.

I don't know where Yoshida and co. hallucinated these ears being higher as a standard, but they need to lay off the Gysahl Greens. It's getting in the way of their game-making abilities.
It's not just Viera and Hrothgar suffering. Name one patch that hasn't had something really stupid since Endwalker Early Access.

I think Square just wants to stealthily smother this game. Either that or see just how low we'll sink. How far we'll make up excuses for them.

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I really just feel like this justification for not giving them headgear, because viera ears are higher up, is SUCH a stretch. Especially as it does seem to be averse to previous viera design. Literaly just an excuse to not do it. I can't speak for others, but having headgear available over "customizable ears" is something I'd take. I really just feel like they were/are dead set on these races being limited, and that sucks. Just giving hrothgar ears on their hair, might as well be insurmountable, because they just don't want to do it. Them not wanting to do it is, I think, the biggest issue here.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I really just feel like this justification for not giving them headgear, because viera ears are higher up, is SUCH a stretch. Especially as it does seem to be averse to previous viera design. Literaly just an excuse to not do it. I can't speak for others, but having headgear available over "customizable ears" is something I'd take. I really just feel like they were/are dead set on these races being limited, and that sucks. Just giving hrothgar ears on their hair, might as well be insurmountable, because they just don't want to do it. Them not wanting to do it is, I think, the biggest issue here.

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It is. And all we can hope is that they look at people talking about what's going on and reconsider. But it just feels like it's set in stone now, and that garbage quality is what we'll get. That it's okay to sacrifice us.

If that really isn't their opinion, then I challenge them to be straightforward with us and say so. Otherwise that's just how we'll all be feeling. A feeling that makes us think "welp, they won't care that we feel this way, no matter how much they claim otherwise. Results speak for themselves".

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

- Release was delayed
- Flooded Early Access that bled into the release proper
- Square refusing to take any fault for the errors for days until people showed them evidence
- Weird noise crackling glitches
- Yoshida having to defend the team's storytelling choices, suhc as Garlemald
- Dismissive attitude toward Hrothgar and their hairstyles
- Followed by announcing Legacy Races having a rehaul instead of actually fixing Hrothgar hairstyles
- An Extreme trial with false difficulty which directly contradicts their concerns about Hrothgar hairstyles
- A PvP system with game-breaking bugs and unfair advantages
- All about Housing
- A new menu called "beta" despite very much still operating as though it were an Alpha stage
- Yoshida making excuses for PvP BLM for some reason
- Everything related to Data Center travel

Now, not everything is "game breaking", but at this point they're just taking advantage of whatever little good faith they've got left.

"Features being incomplete" is normal for Square Enix, and has been since as long as I've been playing (mid-Heavensward). It's not ideal, but it wasn't this bad either. Every single patch in Endwalker has been just a crumbling mess with very few saving graces.

It's not "Oh it's only been 3 patches".
It's "Damn, this expansion has only had 3 patches so far and it's already this bad, with none of them being remotely acceptable".

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Welcome to the world of MMOs, where problems exist (but some of them are in the player's head.)

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

It is. And all we can hope is that they look at people talking about what's going on and reconsider. But it just feels like it's set in stone now, and that garbage quality is what we'll get. That it's okay to sacrifice us.

If that really isn't their opinion, then I challenge them to be straightforward with us and say so. Otherwise that's just how we'll all be feeling. A feeling that makes us think "welp, they won't care that we feel this way, no matter how much they claim otherwise. Results speak for themselves".

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Even if they do, hrothgar were still developed into a corner with their faces. Making it way harder than it should be to add options, supposedly. To me, it doesn't look like they are, although I heard that male viera are different, so maybe in the future, for viera at least, they might change their mind. At least a little bit. Hrothgar, seem to be completely out of luck, and I think when we see how female hrothgar turn out, that will be the last nail in the coffin. If they are made with just as many limitations, that just tells me they have literally no intention on ever fixing hrothgar.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Even if they do, hrothgar were still developed into a corner with their faces. Making it way harder than it should be to add options, supposedly. To me, it doesn't look like they are, although I heard that male viera are different, so maybe in the future, for viera at least, they might change their mind. At least a little bit. Hrothgar, seem to be completely out of luck, and I think when we see how female hrothgar turn out, that will be the last nail in the coffin. If they are made with just as many limitations, that just tells me they have literally no intention on ever fixing hrothgar.

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Yes, but I'm, as I always have been, implying that they'll need to unsh*t themselves and make the faces actually work properly. Whether they do or not, it's on them, but people have been asking for this to be addressed for far longer than these hairstyles have been around.

Still, I'm in "whatever" mode and just resigned myself to encourage modders as much as I can. And if Square has a problem with it, they can kiss my front bottom. Because they really have zero reasons to complain about modding being a thing if that's their paradigm going forward.

Clearly this is how they're designing the rest of the game, so why would they care?

Part of the problem is that they more than likely have nothing planned & will do nothing to "fix" the issues with Hrothgar/ Viera.

This will remain the status quo until the proposed changes to character creation/ graphical in 7.0, because why spot fix particular issues when the whole of the system can be revamped?

Now this leaves the player base with the task of making the their voices heard as to whether or not the whole of the character models being recreated. The simple fix for Viera is to hide the ears or fold them completely down to the hair, the Viera still share the same head shape/ design with the original character races. Why the decision to make Hrothgar so different is the true mystery.

Thing is, Yoshi told us Hroth was always meant to be a limited race (i wont bother looking for the live letter proof but it was there., he said more on what Hroth would not have or be than ever mentioning Male Viera.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Part of the problem is that they more than likely have nothing planned & will do nothing to "fix" the issues with Hrothgar/ Viera.

This will remain the status quo until the proposed changes to character creation/ graphical in 7.0, because why spot fix particular issues when the whole of the system can be revamped?

Now this leaves the player base with the task of making the their voices heard as to whether or not the whole of the character models being recreated. The simple fix for Viera is to hide the ears or fold them completely down to the hair, the Viera still share the same head shape/ design with the original character races. Why the decision to make Hrothgar so different is the true mystery.

Thing is, Yoshi told us Hroth was always meant to be a limited race (i wont bother looking for the live letter proof but it was there., he said more on what Hroth would not have or be than ever mentioning Male Viera.

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It goes something like this:

“Once more, I want people to understand that Hrothgar’s head shape is truly unique and custom made here. We created them and implemented them in this way, hoping the furries will love it"


Q: With the two new races' unique heads, how will their headgear work?

A: It won't be displayed, because those face parts wouldn't work in FFXIV's system if headgear were involved. Even Viera ears would've had to be moved down to where Miqo'te ears are. It would've been meaningless if you couldn't go all-out creating characters from these new races, so we decided that helmets wouldn't be necessary.


"well, originally the ears and the head are integrally molded and it’s the actual specifications [we need to adhere to] in order to implement Hrothgar into the game"
"The head shape we use for hrothgar is designed completely exclusively for the race. It's precisely because of this fact that we're able to create their facial appearances, and their current quality is only available because the faces and hair are completed as a set.

Originally, I had announced at the outset that we would be unable to add more hairstyles for them. However, we continued to receive comments asking for more hrothgar hairstyles to be added somehow. In order to address this feedback, we went with a plan where we would maintain the shape of the head and have the ears "hidden" in the hair"

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Thing is, Yoshi told us Hroth was always meant to be a limited race (i wont bother looking for the live letter proof but it was there., he said more on what Hroth would not have or be than ever mentioning Male Viera.

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A bit convenient given how this is such a broad statement with serious implications.

Talking about limitations and issues isn't the same as labelling the race as Limited, and to my knowledge, never once has Yoshida done that on an official basis. That term was never once used to describe Hrothgar nor any other race to this date.

It may be that it's their desire implicitly, but there's nothing official about it other than talking about how hard it is to make content and how different the race is designed. Which is to be expected: it's a beast race. It's not something you can copy-paste from humans. That is obvious.

Constantly saying Yoshida did label this race as such isn't only erroneous, it is irresponsible and actually does harm to Hrothgar players. It promotes negative notions that have led to harassment from the community toward Hrothgar players.

Please watch your words.

Here's a more official note

Worth noting:
"The addition of new playable races will impact more than the development cost of the items added in 5.1 and subsequent updates. Not only will we be transitioning from twelve variations (six races, two genders each) to fourteen, but we will also need to commit more resources to the development of new emotes. While FFXIV will continue to strive to maintain a regular 3.5 month major update cycle, we must also ensure that sufficient time is secured for the meticulous development of new content—or else the quality will invariably drop. This is a complex problem that can’t be solved simply by throwing more money or people at it, as it impacts both debugging and QA."

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Welcome to the world of MMOs, where problems exist (but some of them are in the player's head.)

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While I agree that some of Mida's arguements are extreme reaches, the game being an MMO doesn't excuse the fundamental lack of development that is occuring for an increasing list of game systems.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

While I agree that some of Mida's arguements are extreme reaches, the game being an MMO doesn't excuse the fundamental lack of development that is occuring for an increasing list of game systems.

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I'm not making an excuse. I used to be angry about this and that. I eventually came to understand the truth: This is the nature of the beast. It's been that way for many years and it'll continue to be that way.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Here's a more official note

Worth noting:
"The addition of new playable races will impact more than the development cost of the items added in 5.1 and subsequent updates. Not only will we be transitioning from twelve variations (six races, two genders each) to fourteen, but we will also need to commit more resources to the development of new emotes. While FFXIV will continue to strive to maintain a regular 3.5 month major update cycle, we must also ensure that sufficient time is secured for the meticulous development of new content—or else the quality will invariably drop. This is a complex problem that can’t be solved simply by throwing more money or people at it, as it impacts both debugging and QA."

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And yet a single student was able to make every single hat fit hrothgar and hrothgar wearing those hats...lose nothing. The can still emote. All their animations work. Hats dont clip like hell thru runar or magnus or bajsaljen hairstyles. So what the hell is the issue? You cant even "modders dont have deadlines" because said modder has, for the past MANY patches and updates, worked any new headpieces into their mod the day its released in game.
So whats the issue? Why are hrothgar so thunderingly unique that making new items work is so so dofficult? Hrothgar dont even have ear emotes and if they did well crap they aint been making earslippers for Miqo lately so...?
And we know its not an issue of "cant make it work" because hrothgar can wear like...4 hats that arent head-replaced helms. They can wear yorha hats (mostly) or Edwards hat or the lv90 Alchemist hat. So why cant they haberdash a REAL hat to fit around a bigger headsize? Why wont they tell us what the issue is because god knows we'd love to hear it.
Once again, if a single unpaid student can make brand new gear work the day it drops in game, the people making the new items every patch have 0 excuse except that the excuse is yoship saying "no, our newest races deserve jack and diddly, don't work on it despite making every other new gearpiece visible on their models".

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Originally Posted by XiRon

And yet a single student was able to make every single hat fit hrothgar and hrothgar wearing those hats...lose nothing. The can still emote. All their animations work. Hats dont clip like hell thru runar or magnus or bajsaljen hairstyles. So what the hell is the issue? You cant even "modders dont have deadlines" because said modder has, for the past MANY patches and updates, worked any new headpieces into their mod the day its released in game.
So whats the issue? Why are hrothgar so thunderingly unique that making new items work is so so dofficult? Hrothgar dont even have ear emotes and if they did well crap they aint been making earslippers for Miqo lately so...?
And we know its not an issue of "cant make it work" because hrothgar can wear like...4 hats that arent head-replaced helms. They can wear yorha hats (mostly) or Edwards hat or the lv90 Alchemist hat. So why cant they haberdash a REAL hat to fit around a bigger headsize? Why wont they tell us what the issue is because god knows we'd love to hear it.
Once again, if a single unpaid student can make brand new gear work the day it drops in game, the people making the new items every patch have 0 excuse except that the excuse is yoship saying "no, our newest races deserve jack and diddly, don't work on it despite making every other new gearpiece visible on their models".

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Frankly, I don't know and I don't care. I'm the wrong person to ask. I suspect there's more to it than just slapping it on there after all the fact. It's clear that expectations are quite unrealistic, given that people keep whining here about it and asking the wrong people about it.

I don't see any incentive for them to even work on it, when there's a fix that's in use. Just don't tell them. ;)

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Here's a more official note

Worth noting:
"The addition of new playable races will impact more than the development cost of the items added in 5.1 and subsequent updates. Not only will we be transitioning from twelve variations (six races, two genders each) to fourteen, but we will also need to commit more resources to the development of new emotes. While FFXIV will continue to strive to maintain a regular 3.5 month major update cycle, we must also ensure that sufficient time is secured for the meticulous development of new content—or else the quality will invariably drop. This is a complex problem that can’t be solved simply by throwing more money or people at it, as it impacts both debugging and QA."

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Yknow it also occurs to me that Yoshida absolutely has 0 right to talk about QA after saying oblong peanut-headed 2B hrothgar hair past muster, like are you freaking kidding? THAT passed QA? was the QA tester recently giving out pints of his blood or was he severely drugged? Freaking god I really can't care about anyone saying "we need QA" when earless, Ridley Scott Alien hair was deemed acceptable jesus

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Originally Posted by XiRon

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Have to agree about quality. Quality has gone down if anything, granted Covid can be blamed for a bit of it. Patch schedule has also been extended, for the foreseeable future, as far as I am aware, so since that statement was made, things have definitely changed. Just as things have changed since viera and hrothgar were launched. I'd like to see some quality improvements as far as viera and hrothgar are concerned, that don't take several years.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

Please help me understand the attempted lore justification for this particular example, game designers; your “the ears are hiding” explanation doesn’t work for this hair option due to an illogical inconsistency between two different feline races that both have ears.

Are all Hrothgar making a conscious decision to uncomfortably tuck their ears under the hat, whereas no Miqo’te decide to do that? Why would the two races be different here?

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Cause Yoshi hate Hrothgars and if he could they would be already done like Garlemald, Ascians and most of the Story from the Past. So please be nice go and eat a Burger with your new Battle-ready-Bobs Hairs and be H.A.P.P.Y

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Originally Posted by XiRon

Yknow it also occurs to me that Yoshida absolutely has 0 right to talk about QA after saying oblong peanut-headed 2B hrothgar hair past muster, like are you freaking kidding? THAT passed QA? was the QA tester recently giving out pints of his blood or was he severely drugged? Freaking god I really can't care about anyone saying "we need QA" when earless, Ridley Scott Alien hair was deemed acceptable jesus

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I agree. It can be a complex problem all it wants, but it's far from unsolveable. They're just lazy. And if Quality is what they're really after, then they have to answer for how shoddy Endwalker has been.

Covid can be blamed for only so much. They've said that they're back to their old work schedule. Stop saying things without meaning them, Square Enix. You will be expected to deliver, and at that point, you cannot complain.

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

Cause Yoshi hate Hrothgars and if he could they would be already done like Garlemald, Ascians and most of the Story from the Past. So please be nice go and eat a Burger with your new Battle-ready-Bobs Hairs and be H.A.P.P.Y

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He can blame us all he bloody feels like, he was the one who added in. I don't remember anyone clamouring since Heavensward for a Ronso-type race. Most we had was "wouldn't it be cool if they added it in?", not actual fan demand. From what Yoshida himself said, the demand came from the dev team directly. It was he who wanted a bestial race.

Don't make something you're not willing to support. It just makes you look unprofessional as hell.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Frankly, I don't know and I don't care. I'm the wrong person to ask. I suspect there's more to it than just slapping it on there after all the fact. It's clear that expectations are quite unrealistic, given that people keep whining here about it and asking the wrong people about it.

I don't see any incentive for them to even work on it, when there's a fix that's in use. Just don't tell them. ;)

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If you're the wrong person to ask, who the hell are you to say it's unrealistic?

THE EXPECTATION IS NOTHING MORE THAN HROTHGAR PLAYERS ASKING TO BE TREATED LIKE OTHER RACES AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE.

Because all we've gotten was unprofessionalism and dismissal. They were even surprised that we reacted the way we did to our own hairstyles, and so we're giving them our feedback now so that they don't Pikachu-face us in the future.

None of what we ask is unrealistic. We're not asking for them to change the game overnight, nor in 6.2. Just to be mindful when they do decide to address anything related to us, rather than throw something that no one who would play it would agree to. What IS unrealistic is the devs assuming we'll just sit and take whatever little we can get without complaint.

It's not "whining". It's complaining and feedback. As they asked since A Realm Reborn. It's just a frustrating topic, and they have done NOTHING to help the matter. If you can't handle it, then bugger off Elezen boy, what are you even doing here? This isn't for you, nor do the devs need you to white knight them. They're adults, they're expected to know how to take a criticism.

Stop saying expectations are unrealistic. Stop blaming the playerbase. The devs are no saints, and it doesn't matter how hard they're working on whatever project if the quality they give a select group of people is worse than scraps.

PS: That's still not an official note whatsoever? Where does he actually, factually, claim us to be a Limited Race, using that exact terminology? The insinuations that we're a Limited Race do nothing but perpetuate negativity and discrimination toward Hrothgar players. Because then people think it's okay to dismiss what Hrothgar players have to say about the race they play. Because then people start denying everything that they are and blame them for crap, or making up slurs against them just for being so different. We're left out of the community as it is, with many people not even bothering to include us, and we're ignored way too often because of crap like this.

And once again, the only people willing to entertain this ridiculous notion are the people without the evidence to back it up other than circumstance.

What I can say is that being frustrated does indeed give us nothing and Square Enix is just as likely to set things aside as "people are too angy".

...BUT we did have at least ONE thread where people pointed out "Hey, there are these flaws, this is what your fans think and want, please be more aware of things going forward".

And the only thread they ever answered was one where people went to express their outrage and frustration, so really Square only has itself to blame for that. If frustration is the only thing that gets them to reply at all, then people can't blame others for acting out of frustration against the devs whenever something happens.

Clearly that's the only thing Square looks at. So c'est la Square.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

What I can say is that being frustrated does indeed give us nothing and Square Enix is just as likely to set things aside as "people are too angy".

...BUT we did have at least ONE thread where people pointed out "Hey, there are these flaws, this is what your fans think and want, please be more aware of things going forward".

And the only thread they ever answered was one where people went to express their outrage and frustration, so really Square only has itself to blame for that. If frustration is the only thing that gets them to reply at all, then people can't blame others for acting out of frustration against the devs whenever something happens.

Clearly that's the only thing Square looks at. So c'est la Square.

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It's a flaw that was acknowledged from the release of the race. Short of actually having this work done, it doesn't seem like there's anything that could be said to satisfy anyone, as that's something else to hold them to or misinterpret. They'll say something when they're ready. That's always how it goes.

Because they're special!

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

It's a flaw that was acknowledged from the release of the race. Short of actually having this work done, it doesn't seem like there's anything that could be said to satisfy anyone, as that's something else to hold them to or misinterpret. They'll say something when they're ready. That's always how it goes.

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Not necessarily. One thing is it not satisfying everyone. It's to be expected.
Another thing is satisfying absolutely no one. That's a sign that you're not doing something right.

Even if in the end it's futile because that was their choice, it's still irresponsible to leave it like this when the playerbase that actually does make use of their hard work is saying "no one is satisfied".

As for them saying something when they're ready? Sorry but, while I agree that's appealing and that's how it should be, that is not at all how it goes.
Example? HROTHGARS THEMSELVES. Many features within this game were thrown in for the hell of it, without nary a thought. What we got was them saying "Oh we'll make this, expect XYZ" and then fail to properly deliver. So no. It doesn't go down that way too often, and it's gotten noticeable. It should be, but they don't do it.

And there is something that could be saying to satisfy Hrothgar players, you really just need to read what Hrothgar players have been saying in the threads they make.
No one's expecting them to do things overnight, as I said. THAT is unrealistic.
And no one is expecting them to just up and actually admit "hey, Hrothgars are a Limited Race". It'd spark too much controversy for them to do so.
We'd like them to be more open and transparent about the process they have into making this race's stuff, at least more than an unconvincing "it's too hard". But no company would do that, that's just not how they work. It'd be an exceptional case.
So failing that, what is it that we "whine about", like you yourself put?

We want 3 things:
a) We want to know what their plans for the future are in regards to us and be forthright about what it is that they see in us. Just to know what to expect and what not to expect. So far all we've had were statements that immediately got contradicted. And "what they see in us", as in, what are we a Joke Race? A Limited Race? A "too long, didn't finish" race?? Where do we stand?
b) We want them to take this seriously. To allocate the proper time and resources into making said content actually feel worth expecting. And don't say "Oh but they don't have time and resources", when this game is planned into phases eons before anything is even announced.
c) We want them to operate based on feedback from Hrothgar players. Because it doesn't seem they've been working with what we've been telling them in mind. Just look at April 1st.

That isn't unrealistic nor is it something that they'd misinterpret. It's as simple as that. Any company would seek to do this unless they've actually given up on their product. Which SE insists so much they haven't.
It's also going to be a generic answer, which they're fond of. The issue is just how they do that generic answer. Because constantly spamming "it's too hard" when difficulty isn't the problem, OTHER FACTORS are, makes them look like liars.

One thing I'd like to add to the above, because I literally have nothing better to do :p

On A), like...

You guys have a point, there are statements Square put out that really do limit what to expect for Viera and Hrothgar. But then they get contradicted by Square going out of its way and doing things that they said they wouldn't.

We weren't meant to have these hairstyles.
So why add them?

No, we should want a proper plan presented to us, and we should want to know what is okay to ask and what isn't.

Because rather than focusing on them saying it's too hard, or focusing on whatever parameters they have in store that they can't get through (technical limitations, specs, polygon counts, engine, systems, you name it), what we should be focusing is on what's feasible and what isn't.

As it stands, anything is feasible because we know Modders can do it. But Modders are their own vaccum, one that SE won't be operating on. THAT'S what we should know. Exactly in what way are Hrothgars so hard that they'd refuse to do anything? And as a follow-up, if given time and resources (because this CLEARLY DOES have the backing of the community, if not the playerbase engaging in Hrothgar content), is it possible to reconsider the "no-more" stance? If yes or if no, then why so?

Because today it's hairstyles and head gear, next thing you'll know it's going to be other pieces of gear. And look, as much as you guys think it's not fair on Square Enix for Hrothgar players to always be nagging them after the fiasco of April 1st, it's also not fair on us to not know how far is too far.

Fan outcry has changed this game so many times, so silencing us and saying we're "whiny" REALLY doesn't help.
But at the same time, no one went out of their way to ask for the hairstyles we got, so why give those in the first place? What's going on there?

And we know what's going on there, we know why those hairstyles in specific were given to us. But the point remains that we weren't meant to have those, and no one asked for them. So what's their plan? And given their plan, given how the game is structured, what would really count as feedback vs "unrealistic demands"?

Plus, we SHOULD know what it is they see us as when planning how to proceed. Are we finished? Are we not? Are we an "IOU"? Finish later? Joke race? Limited race??? What?
What's conditioning your development of Hrothgar? So that it's fair on you when we provide complaints and feedback and it's fair on us to expect certain things to be done in a certain way. WITHOUT contradictions or vague statements that lead to people questioning what you meant that one night.

I don't think this thought is overbearing on Square Enix. I'm not calling them out on anything. Still beats the constant silence from Square, that's for sure. It hasn't helped them before, it certainly won't help them going forward. We just shouldn't be expecting more April 1st scenarios. To expect those is a sign that Square went down under.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

We want 3 things:
a) We want to know what their plans for the future are in regards to us and be forthright about what it is that they see in us. Just to know what to expect and what not to expect. So far all we've had were statements that immediately got contradicted. And "what they see in us", as in, what are we a Joke Race? A Limited Race? A "too long, didn't finish" race?? Where do we stand?
b) We want them to take this seriously. To allocate the proper time and resources into making said content actually feel worth expecting. And don't say "Oh but they don't have time and resources", when this game is planned into phases eons before anything is even announced.
c) We want them to operate based on feedback from Hrothgar players. Because it doesn't seem they've been working with what we've been telling them in mind. Just look at April 1st.

That isn't unrealistic nor is it something that they'd misinterpret. It's as simple as that. Any company would seek to do this unless they've actually given up on their product. Which SE insists so much they haven't.
It's also going to be a generic answer, which they're fond of. The issue is just how they do that generic answer. Because constantly spamming "it's too hard" when difficulty isn't the problem, OTHER FACTORS are, makes them look like liars.

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You can check off all those items as done, per that letter I linked. (The level of denial I'm seeing regarding that is insane.) Between that and that schedule you don't want to see mentioned, their stance is pretty clear. It sounds like they'll try to get to female hrothgar at some point, but it's gonna be like male viera, where it's happening when they can find the time and you're not gonna hear anything until it's ready. Maybe try holding out for that last piece and if they don't have headgear by then, just give up. There's too much going on.

It was 3 years between that letter and when male viera were ready to be announced and they made no promise or even a mention on headgear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Because today it's hairstyles and head gear, next thing you'll know it's going to be other pieces of gear. And look, as much as you guys think it's not fair on Square Enix for Hrothgar players to always be nagging them after the fiasco of April 1st, it's also not fair on us to not know how far is too far.

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I don't think people are being unfair to SE. I don't think anyone does. I think you're being unfair and unkind to yourselves with this whole crusade. You're only driving yourselves mad and annoying a few other people at best.

The answers are right there, in the letter and in your sig.

Promote the mod intelligently. Leave it at that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

A bit convenient given how this is such a broad statement with serious implications.

Talking about limitations and issues isn't the same as labelling the race as Limited, and to my knowledge, never once has Yoshida done that on an official basis. That term was never once used to describe Hrothgar nor any other race to this date.

It may be that it's their desire implicitly, but there's nothing official about it other than talking about how hard it is to make content and how different the race is designed. Which is to be expected: it's a beast race. It's not something you can copy-paste from humans. That is obvious.

Constantly saying Yoshida did label this race as such isn't only erroneous, it is irresponsible and actually does harm to Hrothgar players. It promotes negative notions that have led to harassment from the community toward Hrothgar players.

Please watch your words.

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But it's not wrong. The proof is there to see for all, & to say different would be tantamount to lying about the issue, which would fix nothing.

Never have i hidden my disdain for Hroth & always felt their inclusion was unnecessary & handled horribly but my opinion isn't the only one that matters & people have the right to pursue that which they want to project themselves as. They also deserve to have access to all the features that every other player has in the ability to customise their avatar. I feel a complete redesign is needed to go forward or else the issue of their limited status will never be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

It is because miquote default head is bald with no ear.
Hrothgar default head model comes with ear because this is an actual beast race and not really humanoid model that already existed.

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Yup. I remember them talking about exactly this. Something along the lines that they have to put the Miqo'te ears 'on' so-to-speak. With the Hrothgar, the ears are part of the model, so adding ears like they do with the Miqo'te would cause all kinds of clipping issues.

That's all well and good with explaining the constrictions they are dealing with, and unfortunately, many would consider it overstepping pressing the matter further than that; such as wondering why they even went that route in the first place when there is another feline race in existence without those constrictions they could've used as a starting point.

It's yet another example of SE and their lack of foresight. I get they wanted a true beast race, but there is a definitely a disconnect if it simply slipped their minds that the playerbase would not favor the lack of CC options. I will always remain of the mind that no additional races should have ever been released unless they are every single bit as customizable as any of the other races. We now see the result of releasing more races prematurely. It's a shame, and they're going to do it one more time to boot.

The more I see reason in all the wishes we have for Vieras and Hrothgars, the more I think how perfect it would be if they update the game engine again. I know they won't do it because of the workload and prices and efforts... etc... I know that will never happen. But, I can clearly see that MANY problems we see now in the game could be solved by this dream.

They can renew the Hroths in a way that they will be like a full race and not this eternal alpha version. More options for almost everything in the game, beside that.

Perhaps, if we "ask" for it as a united voice to solve all problems, it will do some good? '-'

If they really want this game to last another 10 years, they should definitely take into account all our suggestions and demands instead of just giving lazy excuses and changes due to "spagetties" or other limitation...

I know this is a dream, but sometimes, if we work hard, dreams can come true... :3

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

There's no lore excuse, nor was there a request for patience. Hrothgar and Viera were made per your request and that was it. No amount of money or whining is gonna fix it.

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Can you point to any post about Hrothgar being requested between their Shadowbringers release and now? Go on. I'll wait

Wasn't lupin like the main beast race players were requesting prior to hrothgar?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Wasn't lupin like the main beast race players were requesting prior to hrothgar?

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Was it?

/10chars

Lupin would have been awesome. I would gladly give up hats and hairstyles for that.

Also make the Snow set useable by female characters please SE :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

It is because miquote default head is bald with no ear.
Hrothgar default head model comes with ear because this is an actual beast race and not really humanoid model that already existed.

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As we can see here

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SacraAnima

https://i.imgur.com/1EZp3Kv.png

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Here

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Azazel_Grim

I'm a very experienced 3D Artist. It took me 25 minutes to figure out how to rip from the game, and throw this together:
https://i.imgur.com/gCsoLGV.png
While it does look significantly better with ears, it goes to show their hair choices were abysmal, and nonsensical.

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and here

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...203&height=677

This is just an excuse.

I want some cute hats! :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adamantini

As we can see here



Here



and here

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...203&height=677

This is just an excuse.

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since hrothgar arent important enough to get hair options that arent viera hand-me-downs I guess I need to start praying viera get styled for hire in 6.2
Ive seen a few snaps and screens of hrothgar in it and its so nice