Reimbursement for Lost Tomes due to Wrongful use of Kick

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You can post chat logs so long as you black out names. People do it all the time here with no repercussions.

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I've been on some forums where even that's been considered a callout due to even a minimal number of people able to catch that relevance. Thank you for the input.

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Originally Posted by Alklios

Posting chat logs of other players on public forums is a direct call out and is violation of ToS. I am not giving names to demonize others.

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If you want any sort of realistic player feedback on your situation you'll need to provide some demonstrable evidence of wrongdoing.

Even if you can - the fact that you got into an argument is not something that SE, the Devs, or any rando on these boards can arbitrate for you.
There is no wronged party in this case unless you were targeted specifically and abused, in which case I'd report the players - the 'lost' tomes would be the last thing I'd be worrying about.

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Originally Posted by Alklios

I'm seeing this quite often, this is referred to as the "False Cause Fallacy", or immediately coming to conclusion that correlation equals causation. A wrongful kick is a wrongful kick regardless of how often it happens.

Despite how many disagreements you get in with someone, that is still no license to completely deny them the work that they have done with you. A wrongful kick is a wrongful kick no matter -how much- you dislike someone. And I want Square to have an intervention to reimburse lost progress to a meta line of thought, which I'm seeing here, that disagreements are congruent to harassment. A paid service needs to provide protection or insurance against player abuse.

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I’m sorry, but if you’re disruptive enough in a run for someone in the party to dismiss you—and if this happens repeatedly, which your opening post implies—the issue does not lie with others. No matter how many times you try to insist otherwise. The party in question saw it more prudent to remove you than to keep you. Deal with it; report if you will lose that much sleep over it; and then move on. Demanding compensation isn’t going to get you anywhere—you’re demanding something you didn’t earn.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m sorry, but if you’re disruptive enough in a run for someone in the party to dismiss you—and if this happens repeatedly, which your opening post implies—the issue does not lie with others. No matter how many times you try to insist otherwise. The party in question saw it more prudent to remove you than to keep you. Deal with it; report if you will lose that much sleep over it; and then move on. Demanding compensation isn’t going to get you anywhere—you’re demanding something you didn’t earn.

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I think I did earn the 2/3 bosses completed at least in that specific example.

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Originally Posted by Alklios

I'm seeing this quite often, this is referred to as the "False Cause Fallacy", or immediately coming to conclusion that correlation equals causation. A wrongful kick is a wrongful kick regardless of how often it happens.

Despite how many disagreements you get in with someone, that is still no license to completely deny them the work that they have done with you. A wrongful kick is a wrongful kick no matter -how much- you dislike someone. And I want Square to have an intervention to reimburse lost progress to a meta line of thought, which I'm seeing here, that disagreements are congruent to harassment. A paid service needs to provide protection or insurance against player abuse.

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But... that's the point we are all trying to make. Just because you *say* it is wrongful, that doesn't mean it's wrongful. What is your definition of harassment? SE's definition of harassment is doing anything that impedes other players' fun in the game. That might mean giving people unwanted advice. Telling them how to play their jobs. Calling them out. Saying, "Run to A when B happens" is fine, but telling BLM over there to learn how to play his job right and calling him out is not. That is, for all intents and purposes, harassment. This is not WoW. You cannot tell people to git gud, you cannot tell them to L2P, and you cannot tell them they're pulling shit numbers. That isn't how this community works.

With that being said, reexamine your actions and what you said to these people that resulted in getting kicked. If it's happening repeatedly, there's a 99.9999% chance it isn't wrongful at all, and that's where your argument is falling flat.

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Originally Posted by Alklios

I think I did earn the 2/3 bosses completed at least in that specific example.

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Tomestones aren’t given until you complete the dungeon—which you did not do. Therefore, in the eyes of the GMs, you earned nothing.

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Originally Posted by Alklios

I think I did earn the 2/3 bosses completed at least in that specific example.

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Completion bonuses are for killing the last boss. You did not kill the last boss, so you did not earn a completion bonus. You lost nothing earned. Its why someone can join a duty in progress just before or even during the final boss and still get full rewards.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

If you want any sort of realistic player feedback on your situation you'll need to provide some demonstrable evidence of wrongdoing.

Even if you can - the fact that you got into an argument is not something that SE, the Devs, or any rando on these boards can arbitrate for you.
There is no wronged party in this case unless you were targeted specifically and abused, in which case I'd report the players - the 'lost' tomes would be the last thing I'd be worrying about.

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I thought it was odd that the GM was so adamant about that justice will be served to take action against them. Contrarily what I care about is my lost progress, not seeing just deserts served. Justice vs. revenge I suppose. The report made to to stimulate investigation that could view the authenticity of my request for reimbursement.

Contrary to what so many players are suggesting on this feed, I'm not seeking validation/feedback for what was right or wrong for me to do. The GM's decide that, not players.

I was heavily encouraged to make this suggestion on this forum and see it was a mistake to even bring up my experiences, for that I will apologize. Players are more obsessed with a witch hunt for fault rather than the thesis.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Completion bonuses are for killing the last boss. You did not kill the last boss, so you did not earn a completion bonus. You lost nothing earned. Its why someone can join a duty in progress just before or even during the final boss and still get full rewards.

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2/3 of the boss isn't part of the completion bonus.

Expert roulette is 90 phanta total. 40 dungeon + 50 completion bonus.

When you slay a boss you see yourself receiving goetia and phantasmagoria. That reward should be yours, and kept. But it is not. A kick deletes all that progress -in addition- to denying you completion bonus as mentioned a few times in this thread.

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Originally Posted by WalxAtNite

But... that's the point we are all trying to make. Just because you *say* it is wrongful, that doesn't mean it's wrongful. What is your definition of harassment? SE's definition of harassment is doing anything that impedes other players' fun in the game. That might mean giving people unwanted advice. Telling them how to play their jobs. Calling them out. Saying, "Run to A when B happens" is fine, but telling BLM over there to learn how to play his job right and calling him out is not. That is, for all intents and purposes, harassment. This is not WoW. You cannot tell people to git gud, you cannot tell them to L2P, and you cannot tell them they're pulling shit numbers. That isn't how this community works.

With that being said, reexamine your actions and what you said to these people that resulted in getting kicked. If it's happening repeatedly, there's a 99.9999% chance it isn't wrongful at all, and that's where your argument is falling flat.

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That's another hard False Cause fallacy that wouldn't stand up in a debate, and once again my argument is not that one was wrongfully kicked. Please refer to the thread title.

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Originally Posted by Alklios

2/3 of the boss isn't part of the completion bonus.

Expert roulette is 90 phanta total. 40 dungeon + 50 completion bonus.

When you slay a boss you see yourself receiving goetia and phantasmagoria. That reward should be yours, and kept. But it is not. A kick deletes all that progress -in addition- to denying you completion bonus as mentioned a few times in this thread.

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Even though the game says you earned them, it doesn’t give them to you until you complete the duty. This is likely in place to keep people from making premades to repeatedly farm the first boss > drop instance > repeat.

No... if you have 100 players and 99 of them never get kicked out of dungeons, but ONE seems to be getting kicked repeatedly, anyone in their right mind would venture to guess that the one player out of 100 getting kicked is doing something deserving of being kicked.

Now, if you had evidence that you were kicked for no other reason than simply existing? I may take your side on this. If there's any False Cause Fallacy, it's your odd belief that you deserve a completion bonus for something you didn't complete, and rather than taking the time to examine your own actions - i.e., what caused you to be removed from the party and lose out on that completion bonus - you would rather attempt to convince the readers of this forum that you have done nothing at all to warrant the kick. Therefore, you were *wrongfully* kicked. Therefore, you deserve a reward for a) not completing the objective that provides that bonus to players and b) somehow managing to get yourself removed from a party not just once, but repeatedly.

Dude, I can't walk up to my neighbor's dog, kick it in the face multiple times, then sue my neighbor when the dog bites me demanding compensation. That is not how this works, but to everyone looking in on this, that's what you're trying to do.

You did not get kicked for no reason. You did not get kicked because people "don't like you." You got kicked because you did or said something, even if you don't want to tell us what that something is.

Get back in the queue. Complete the objective. Don't harass players or do whatever it is you keep doing to get yourself kicked. Get the completion bonus. Win.

OP - "I was wrongfully kicked, i demand compensation"
Everyone - "Ok. . .Why were you kicked or wrongfully kicked"
OP - "They kicked me wrongfully, i demand tomes for the effort i put in"
Everyone - "can you tell us what happened before you were kicked"
OP - "Give me tomes, WoW GMs are much better than ours"
Everyone - "Do you even remember what happened"
OP - "Crystal DC is a joke, why am I on here"

Do you see the never ending cycle here? people are asking you for sources so they can get a feel of what happened and make a judgement but here you are complaining about being kicked and rules but still don't have any sources to back up these claims.
(And yes you can post logs of chat if you blacked them out as we will never know the players who did it)

Other than that. this topic is pointless
-no you're not going to get compensated. you were never abused
-if you don't like Crystal DC, then leave. enough with lowblow callouts on the server you are in (if you are this way, then people in other DCs wouldn't even want to associate with ya)
-stop being a special snowflake. nobody deserves special treatment more than this game already gives people.

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Originally Posted by Alklios

It's happened in the last year and alot of times I think its attributed to the updated ToS that's been used as a scapegoat for these awful people to try to rationalize any disruptive behavior. I noticed an almost immediate rise in hostility of players with the rolling of data centers as well (Crystal), ex. with 1 other friend premades we've had to get rid of so many tanks that will literally sit down in a dungeon if you poke them to keep up their AoE (almost always Aurum Vale).

Lower brackets we've had to deal with DPS stopping from being prodded they need to use AoE's, and explain that it's wonderful this xpac got rid of TP.

Trolls are at an all new high, I didn't have to deal with any of this last 2 years of ARR or HW. It's so rampant now it's becoming problem for my friends and I either together or as individuals to keep up completion.

Also going to heavily edit this post now seeing as the main point isn't being argue, it's being heavily derailed with strawmen and assumptive ad hominem attacking a personal experience shared instead of mostly criticizing the suggestion and folks can see the example in quotes.

Thank you for your input.

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You literally just pulled a logic bro to duck out of the main factor here. Yes we have tried to address the silly demand for compensation but we're also trying to offer advice on how to not get kicked.

You're using the scapegoat new tos bc again I still have had no problems. New TOS literally is to just be respectful. No one owes you half an hour of listening to your meta. It's a game. Read the room and stop talking if it's an agree to disagree situation otherwise, YOU'RE CREATING THE HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT and you're making others uncomfortable.

I'm not trying to attack your character but literally everyone is either asking "okay but WHAT" did you do (bc why would we agree to compensate people who got kicked for afk when they could have been kicked with a penalty for harassment) OR were just suggesting if it's THIS big of a problem, that based on the number of people who don't have this problem, that perhaps you're the odd man out who needs to reavulate your behavior to better integrate into a social gaming experience with other real human beings. If it's just you and your friends, you guys probs aren't being respectful and should learn how to socialize instead of shoving your opinion and insistence on being right into everyone's faces both in game and on forums.

I don't think you've brought this here in good faith. I honestly personally believe you're upset that your actions continue to have consequences

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Originally Posted by Alklios

Please attack the suggestion. The argument, not the person.

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The suggestion is not good because it completely negates the idea of negative actions having consequences. There. If someone's getting kicked this often, I'd be upset if they were getting compensated, nay, rewarded for being insufferable to be around in a video game where you aren't required to talk to your party if you don't feel like it.

If you are getting kicked to the point of regularity, the problem is very likely you. All we can really gather from all this is you disagreed with the healer enough they wanted you out. Did try to pull too much, not enough, not CDs or just make comments they didn't like? You did something because people typically only kick at the last boss when they're pissed. Regardless, there's nothing that can be done about it even if you were totally innocent. Your suggestion doesn't work since it defeats the entire point of vote kicks. It sucks but it's not like dungeons are long or challenging. Just run it again and say nothing but "hi".

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Originally Posted by Alklios

It's happened in the last year and alot of times I think its attributed to the updated ToS that's been used as a scapegoat for these awful people to try to rationalize any disruptive behavior. I noticed an almost immediate rise in hostility of players with the rolling of data centers as well (Crystal), ex. with 1 other friend premades we've had to get rid of so many tanks that will literally sit down in a dungeon if you poke them to keep up their AoE (almost always Aurum Vale).

Lower brackets we've had to deal with DPS stopping from being prodded they need to use AoE's, and explain that it's wonderful this xpac got rid of TP.

Trolls are at an all new high, I didn't have to deal with any of this last 2 years of ARR or HW. It's so rampant now it's becoming problem for my friends and I either together or as individuals to keep up completion.

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I'm gonna bite on this one. I'm at nearly 8,000 duties completed on my main, and have the 2,000 mentor roulette mount without duty fishing. I've done a LOT of content and a wide variety of it. I've dealt with truckloads of players of varying skill levels.

VERY few people in this game are legitimately hostile. You need to learn how to pick your battles. A dungeon taking a few minutes longer isn't a good reason to poke at them. If a tank made a choice to "literally sit down in a dungeon", that means someone in the party did or said SOMETHING to make them put their foot down. NO ONE is interesting in prolonging a dungeon unless someone is causing a problem.

Why is there a need to "poke them to keep up their AoE", especially in a low level dungeon? If aggro is an issue, that means that's a tank stance problem, and you ask them to please turn it on. If that's not the problem, you paying too much attention (in a non-expert dungeon) to what the tank is doing and "poking" them about it, might be the real issue. I'm all for helping people improve, as well as dungeon efficiency, but there is a time and a place for it. There is content where you should expect a certain level of competence, and places where you just need to let it go.

Unless something is going terribly wrong, people don't like unsolicited advice, even if it is well intentioned. No one wants to be called out on the spot and embarrassed like that. No one wants to be micromanaged without consent in a dungeon. It's a game, they are your teammates, and you're not their manager.



All that aside, the reason this suggestion won't work is because it will open the for for partial pre-mades to kick someone at the last minute to bring in their friend to get reward bonuses for no effort, while the person who was kicked also gets equally compensated. It won't solve the any issue regarding "why votekicks occur in the first place", but will encourage a small percentage of people to actively abuse it. The feature is there to remove people who are being an ACTIVE detriment; not those who are being a mild annoyance.

You keep talking about wrongful kicks.
I'm beginning to think that your definition of a wrongful kick is just one that's aimed at you.

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Originally Posted by Alklios

My suggestion is that after a thorough investigation of a wrongful use of vote-kick in a dungeon, if the player accosted is found in the right they should receive a full reimbursement of the tomes and currency (additionally adventurer in need, if applicable) denied.

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Originally Posted by Alklios

GM decides fault, and if in favor of the victim, they should receive reimbursement.

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Putting aside your individual situation - if this is a common issue, then think about what this means for the GMs if this was a rule for the entire playerbase. Every time someone thinks they've been wrongly kicked, the GM has to make a "thorough investigation" and judge whether you earned your tomes or not.

It sounds like a lot of additional work and judgement they don't need to be doing, and they'd still be saying no to people who were "rightfully kicked".

And then there's the timeframe of it.

You played a dungeon, you got kicked, you file a compensation report. Now what? Do you wait for the GM to get back to you, and potentially miss your daily reward altogether if they say no? Run the roulette again, get your tomes through the automatic daily reward, then the GM awards you 90% of a second reward? Or did you just waste their time spent investigating whether to give you the reward, because they can't give you a second one?

I don't know the full story of what's going on here, but I have one suggestion if such vote kicks are a concern:

Don't roll on items you don't need. Vote kicks cannot be commenced when rolling on items.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

I don't know the full story of what's going on here, but I have one suggestion if such vote kicks are a concern:

Don't roll on items you don't need. Vote kicks cannot be commenced when rolling on items.

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That's not helpful advice, that's a way for trolls to ensure a party can't get rid of them when they deserve to be kicked. Don't encourage people to do it.

Also, if a party is determined to kick someone, they'll wait.

Gonna ask one more time for folk to solely (per the forum rules) discuss, debate and pick apart the discussion title:
"Reimbursement for Lost Tomes due to Wrongful use of Kick"



Food for thought for others that want to discuss the other off-topic points posted on another thread:

- An amount of highly active posters and players I can count on my fingers is not representative of the whole population. Naturally incidences of this problem will be far lessened for the behavior suggested that placates the aggressor. Perform a few google searches to see how rampant the kick system abuse is.
- If gross LFG toxicity is not considered in spite of the individual, perform the simple experiment of observing a player new to Labyrinth of the Ancients step on a pedastal in the Atomos fight and see how quickly they get lambasted or kicked.
- This is the internet with broadly varying views. Taking it one step further to troll or deny someone work they've done with you is beyond reasonable. No matter how much it burns with fiery determination in the heart to seek vengeance against someone for taking a different stance than you, they don't deserve to be cut out of a reward you worked for together. Harassment is harassment. There is no ambiguity. I've seen it painted 1000 colors with my 5%, 1 in 20 some-odd retention rates of my friends I invite to play this game.

"Reimbursement for Lost Tomes due to Wrongful use of Kick"

And as raised, you need to have earned the reward to have lost it to begin with. You didn't finish the duty regardless of the circumstances, so you didn't have anything to lose thus there is nothing to refund. You were rewarded for the work you did up to the point of kick, so any tomes from previous bosses, loot drops, gil etc, because that's all you earned and deserved.

"Wrongful use of kick" also doesn't exist unless a GM has proven otherwise. Kick is available for any reason and no one has any obligation to explain it to the person who is kicked. The GM will decide if you or whoever is the victim or not, otherwise anyone could just cry wolf whenever they wanted.

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Originally Posted by MeowingKittens

You need to learn how to pick your battles.

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This is the best advice in the thread.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

"Reimbursement for Lost Tomes due to Wrongful use of Kick"

And as raised, you need to have earned the reward to have lost it to begin with. You didn't finish the duty regardless of the circumstances, so you didn't have anything to lose thus there is nothing to refund. You were rewarded for the work you did up to the point of kick, so any tomes from previous bosses, loot drops, gil etc, because that's all you earned and deserved.

"Wrongful use of kick" also doesn't exist unless a GM has proven otherwise. Kick is available for any reason and no one has any obligation to explain it to the person who is kicked. The GM will decide if you or whoever is the victim or not, otherwise anyone could just cry wolf whenever they wanted.

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We still don't get the tomes earned for bosses already completed as even those are stripped after a vote kick.

I think a good compromise would be to at minimal keep tomes earned from bosses completed so it doesn't feel as miserable having to climb back on top of a rock being rewarded 0.

To your latter statement, it's agreed fully which is why in my first post I said that it would be naturally GM's discretion, even -after- they've decided foul play against you. IDK why so many people think I was asking for immediate reimbursement upon clicking the report button.


You also helped me think of something to suggest in another thread: Lowering the completion bonus and raising base tomes awarded so we can grind out tomes easier earlier in week and encourage us to do other roulettes that don't pale in comparison to phanta/goetia tomes. Thank you for your input.

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Originally Posted by Alklios

We still don't get the tomes earned for bosses already completed as even those are stripped after a vote kick.

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This is not true. Any items that you get in a dungeon (including currency) are put into your inventory, they aren't tied to the duty.

As for the rest of the thread, you sound extremely entitled. You had a bad dungeon run, get over it, everyone had had bad dungeon runs with crappy people, and this may result in things getting toxic. You lost maybe 20 minutes of your life and still gained the rewards for the part of the dungeon that you did. Move on and hope for better parties. Tomestones aren't hard to get, do a hunt train or some maps to supplement your roulettes, and you will see how easy tomes are to get.

Essentially this has blown up into a 7-page thread over a tantrum.

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Originally Posted by Alklios

Gonna ask one more time for folk to solely (per the forum rules) discuss, debate and pick apart the discussion title:
"Reimbursement for Lost Tomes due to Wrongful use of Kick"

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People have been discussing that. They disagree with your proposal, and have already listed the reasons why. You didn’t earn anything; there is nothing to reimburse. Implementing this system has room for abuse, which players have also outlined for you. If you are of the mind that people wouldn’t abuse it, you seriously underestimate how much human beings will cut corners and take the path of least resistance when it comes to things.

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- An amount of highly active posters and players I can count on my fingers is not representative of the whole population. Naturally incidences of this problem will be far lessened for the behavior suggested that placates the aggressor. Perform a few google searches to see how rampant the kick system abuse is.

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These are all anecdotes at the end of the day. You want to dismiss our anecdotes; we can easily dismiss the others that display this “rampant” abuse. Most are one-sided stories (much like yours) that no one aside from a GM can confirm or deny. That said, there have actually been quite a few threads on this very forum where someone came forth to cry about “vote kick abuse”—until the parties that dismissed them also appeared with chat log evidence that the poster wasn’t as innocent as they wanted to initially claim. So you should understand the hesitancy of some to take your dismissal as true abuse—especially when you don’t even provide any details of what occurred.

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- If gross LFG toxicity is not considered in spite of the individual, perform the simple experiment of observing a player new to Labyrinth of the Ancients step on a pedastal in the Atomos fight and see how quickly they get lambasted or kicked.

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Posting an anecdote here, but I’ve been playing this game for 4 years. I’ve never seen anyone kicked in LotA short of a disconnection—especially now where people just zergfest the content. At most, someone will say in Alliance chat, “B, pads please”. They rarely ever call a person out by name—they address the entire alliance. Which makes sense, since the pads are a 4-person job.

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- This is the internet with broadly varying views. Taking it one step further to troll or deny someone work they've done with you is beyond reasonable. No matter how much it burns with fiery determination in the heart to seek vengeance against someone for taking a different stance than you, they don't deserve to be cut out of a reward you worked for together. Harassment is harassment. There is no ambiguity. I've seen it painted 1000 colors with my 5%, 1 in 20 some-odd retention rates of my friends I invite to play this game.

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There is ambiguity when you don’t provide details of your own kick, yet continue to insist that it was “wrongful” AND use it as the primary defense for your proposal. As for the reward, you did not earn anything because you did not complete the duty. That is how rewards are given in this game—not for every boss, not halfway through the content. At the end upon duty completion.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

This is not true. Any items that you get in a dungeon (including currency) are put into your inventory, they aren't tied to the duty.

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You will earn and retain the gear drops. Tomestone rewards are not rewarded until you beat the final boss. If you are kicked prior to completing the dungeon, you do not earn the rewards.

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Originally Posted by Alklios

You also helped me think of something to suggest in another thread: Lowering the completion bonus and raising base tomes awarded so we can grind out tomes easier earlier in week and encourage us to do other roulettes that don't pale in comparison to phanta/goetia tomes. Thank you for your input.

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On this, other roulettes are more beneficial if one is leveling. But earning capped tomestones every week just requires one Expert Roulette for 5 days. Expert Roulette gives 90 capped tomes total—multiply by 5, and you have 450 tomes. Easy earnings; takes less than an hour each day. In addition, you can join Hunt trains that will cap you extremely fast. We really don’t need tomes to be any easier to obtain.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You will earn and retain the gear drops. Tomestone rewards are not rewarded until you beat the final boss. If you are kicked prior to completing the dungeon, you do not earn the rewards.

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Having to jog my memory... the other bosses must drop goetia then? I know that all bosses in an expert roulette drop at least something.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Having to jog my memory... the other bosses must drop goetia then? I know that all bosses in an expert roulette drop at least something.

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The bosses will say that you “earned” X amount of tomes, but you don’t actually get them until you complete the dungeon. I know that this applies for capped tomestones. I don’t know if uncapped ones fall in the same category because I’m always capped on them, but I’d wager they function the same.

@Hyominpark.

I mentioned increasing base tomes and lowering completion bonus to equalize out 90 tomes at end of day but make it easier to grind out tomes earlier in a day. The problem is alot of players just can't have a 30 minute opening each and every day, so having a 2-3 spontaneous window to grind out tomes is nice. At 40 tomes a dungeon instead of say 60 (with completion bonus lowered to 30) this is -way-more difficult to achieve cap.

This isn't the thread to to discuss my takeaway from anecdotes about behaviors, if I do that it will be to PMs to better explain situations. Otherwise it's considered derailing from topic of thread title. Yes, a GM decides misbehavior. It is why I'm not bothering posting any screenshots of former abuse. Validation from players will do nothing for me or this thread. I don't need people agreeing with me or disagreeing with me if I was in wrong or right. I'm needing developer consideration for a suggestion that a -GM- thought was a good idea to suggest here which they will get by reading innately.

As for being denied a completion bonus and not receiving rewards, I'll agree to disagree. Most services in the real world that take your money will reimburse you for people cheating you out of reward or 'payment' for a service by either real currency as in insurance agencies, or virtual currency in video games. There's some servers of mmos that my donation items have gotten intervened and stolen by the delivery and all a GM has to do is track that item code, remove it from the game, ban the player and give me back the item. It's not a farfetched concept.

I won't get an end game bonus because I didn't manage to complete the dungeon -because- players denied me it. GM's can determine that fault.
I brought up my WoW experience by comparison to explain another experience where a player cheated me out of progress (in addition to destroying all my gear selling it), and I was reimbursed. I didn't participate in the arena season that week, but the service providers understood that 100%. My progression was restored because I pay money for a service and other players abused a feature to wall me off from it. Rhetoric: I don't deserve that week of conquest which is paramount to maintaining my Arena Rank in Cataclysm BECAUSE I couldn't complete it? Blizzard seemed to think otherwise and compensated. Square hasn't refused this, they simply haven't considered it. It's not my goal to QQ about 1 company and not the other. A GM said it's never been suggested and so here I am.

To those that spoke you can just simply re-q, consider the common situation I already detailed: DPS in queue for near close to half hour for an alliance raid that is new in 5.X patch. Few people memorized the fights, there's alot of wipes. People start becoming irate, maybe dps checks aren't met. Fingers pointed, boom booted. Near 1/2 hour Queue and probably 1 hour progress lost. Full time jobs or full time with children aren't going to have a schedule so forgiving for that, and thus leads to huge unsubbing and loss of $$$ for Square, which is their goal.

I can't think of a solution yet for lost gear and a thread may be made if it comes to mind, but the Alliance Raid coin would be nice to obtain IF GM finds foul play and you didn't do anything to instigate it. This isn't a problem for me specifically as I only roll healer/tank.

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Originally Posted by Alklios

This isn't the thread to to discuss my takeaway from anecdotes about behaviors, if I do that it will be to PMs to better explain situations. Otherwise it's considered derailing from topic of thread title. Yes, a GM decides misbehavior. It is why I'm not bothering posting any screenshots of former abuse. Validation from players will do nothing for me or this thread.

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This forum doesn’t have a direct messaging feature.

That said, you have to understand why you are getting the backlash you are: people don’t trust your story, and that may not matter to you—but you opened this post with it as the primary reason for your proposal. When you start a topic with something like that, and then refuse to clarify, people will be less keen to listen to you. Especially since the only other “evidence” for backing up this suggestion are more anecdotes, and especially when it’s not uncommon for these “abuses” to turn out to not be such on this particular platform. People are allowed to be skeptical of you, and you haven’t done anything to alleviate the skepticism. You’ve only fueled it by dodging the questions.

You brought up your own kick in the opening post. It’s technically not off-topic for people to address the point you’ve reiterated multiple times.

you know the more you try to defend what happened and more you believe you deserve to be compensated for what you did in the duty.

the more people here are not going to care, nor will feel like you deserve anything and feel entitled to anything. continue doing what you do in your life, stop arguing this topic because im starting to feel sorry for you that you care this much about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alklios

To those that spoke you can just simply re-q, consider the common situation I already detailed: DPS in queue for near close to half hour for an alliance raid that is new in 5.X patch.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Tomestones aren't hard to get, do a hunt train or some maps to supplement your roulettes, and you will see how easy tomes are to get.

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I'll reiterate...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yukumazi

you know the more you try to defend what happened and more you believe you deserve to be compensated for what you did in the duty.

the more people here are not going to care, nor will feel like you deserve anything and feel entitled to anything. continue doing what you do in your life, stop arguing this topic because im starting to feel sorry for you that you care this much about it.

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So, I'm not certain why people here are so obsessed with having me seek their approval or disapproval for an event. I honestly don't need your validation or anyone's, the point of a thread is to not play a thumbs'up game of approval. It's suggesting a point of consideration for the Dev team and it's up to -you- the poster to discuss or leave it dry. If you don't care how your dollar is used, you don't have to respond. Reimbursement for abuse is not an alien concept.
It's making me question what the priority of players here is just as the GM communicating with me was so adamant that justice will be served to the offender mentioned about 4 times, when I just want my denied currency reimbursed. Simple capitalism.

People being banned is irrelevant to this thread. People being at fault myself or another is irrelevant. The GM decides that, NOT YOU. Please stop derailing my thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I'll reiterate...

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I'll reiterate. You don't get alliance raids coins for hunt trains and roulettes as is spelled out in the sentence after. Tomestones aren't the only currency that can be taken away. Alliance raid coins and even gear drops. A problem since the dawn of LFG is premades booting players before an upcoming desired drop, for example. Another example that requires some coverage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This forum doesn’t have a direct messaging feature.

That said, you have to understand why you are getting the backlash you are: people don’t trust your story, and that may not matter to you—but you opened this post with it as the primary reason for your proposal. When you start a topic with something like that, and then refuse to clarify, people will be less keen to listen to you. Especially since the only other “evidence” for backing up this suggestion are more anecdotes, and especially when it’s not uncommon for these “abuses” to turn out to not be such on this particular platform. People are allowed to be skeptical of you, and you haven’t done anything to alleviate the skepticism. You’ve only fueled it by dodging the questions.

You brought up your own kick in the opening post. It’s technically not off-topic for people to address the point you’ve reiterated multiple times.

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Whether or not -I- specifically deserved a kick is irrelevant to reimbursement needed for a rampant problem. Even if I were justified to be kicked 9 out of 10 times, the other one needs coverage and it's not just me but thousands of players suffering that a week. We need some coverage for toxic PvE that's weeded out my friend's list real thin. That's why I am suggesting this and only because of GM prompting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alklios

So, I'm not certain why people here are so obsessed with having me seek their approval or disapproval for an event. I honestly don't need your validation or anyone's, the point of a thread is to not play a thumbs'up game of approval. It's suggesting a point of consideration for the Dev team and it's up to -you- the poster to discuss or leave it dry. If you don't care how your dollar is used, you don't have to respond. Reimbursement for abuse is not an alien concept.
It's making me question what the priority of players here is just as the GM communicating with me was so adamant that justice will be served to the offender mentioned about 4 times, when I just want my denied currency reimbursed. Simple capitalism.

People being banned is irrelevant to this thread. People being at fault myself or another is irrelevant. The GM decides that, NOT YOU. Please stop derailing my thread.

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Your thread is about you being kicked from a duty and demanding compensation. when most of the party is against your decision and you disagree with the party when they party wants sources and reasons of what happened to justify why you deserve compensation despite knowing you don't deserve one.

Again, you don't deserve to be reimbursed. move on start fighting a battle you never had a chance to even participate in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yukumazi

Your thread is about you being kicked from a duty and demanding compensation. when most of the party is against your decision and you disagree with the party when they party wants sources and reasons of what happened to justify why you deserve compensation despite knowing you don't deserve one.

Again, you don't deserve to be reimbursed. move on start fighting a battle you never had a chance to even participate in.

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The 'party' made it about trying to see if I deserve or not the reimbursement when this thread is voiced to give a resolution to everyone suffering from trolls.
The 'party's' judgments means nothing to me as that is a GM's decision. Your judgment will not help me. It won't sway a GM or developer's decision.
You, the player, have no power to determine guilt or innocence so no consideration has been given to feed the pettiness that is attempting to put me on trial.
I'm speaking on universals, you and 'party' are speaking on individuals. Me. Stop making it about. Me.

All I care about is to hear the pros or cons of having a system, and that's as little as a fourth of the content posted here. Now I am being blamed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alklios

I'll reiterate. You don't get alliance raids coins for hunt trains and roulettes as is spelled out in the sentence after. Tomestones aren't the only currency that can be taken away. Alliance raid coins and even gear drops. A problem since the dawn of LFG is premades booting players before an upcoming desired drop, for example. Another example that requires some coverage.

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You dont lose gear that you won the lot for when youre kicked lmao. The coin is a completion reward. You no kill last boss? Then you no get completion reward.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alklios

The 'party' made it about trying to see if I deserve or not the reimbursement when this thread is voiced to give a resolution to everyone suffering from trolls.
The 'party's' judgments means nothing to me as that is a GM's decision. Your judgment will not help me. It won't sway a GM or developer's decision.
You, the player, have no power to determine guilt or innocence so no consideration has been given to feed the pettiness that is attempting to put me on trial.
I'm speaking on universals, you and 'party' are speaking on individuals. Me. Stop making it about. Me.

All I care about is to hear the pros or cons of having a system, and that's as little as a fourth of the content posted here. Now I am being blamed

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dude your original post is literally you complaining about how you got kicked, how crystal DC is terrible and how you demand to be compensated for the effort you put into the dungeon. now you want to turn this topic around on how the system is being used? please stop playing the victim and using that as a scapegoat. you suddenly are trying to turn it into a topic on GMs and it's rules when you realized how everyone is against your decisions, your complaint. and your lack of sources/explanation of the scenario when everyone was spitting facts at you.

this entire thread is literally about YOU because you made it about YOU. not about the GMs and their system.