Please make healing more worthwhile than Dps-ing

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Originally Posted by Miminming

When people mess up a mechanic? Maybe it's okay to let them die... i say maybe because i believe it's within a healer job to back them up (except... maybe if they mess up repeatly and die as soon as being raised (i hate that lol))

But the problem is some healers are not even healing the bare minimum, they are pushing their healing responsibility to their partner who is the same dps-ing healer which leading into a wipe... this happen more and more in high level play where people act like thay are the perfect healer... again im not saying all healer is like that

Healing need to have more benefit than just recovering hp... something that contribute in more dps or idk something more than just hp... *brainstorming*

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in my previous MMO, u had some healers that benefited healing to increase dps as well as dps giving a bit of healing. Like a shield with damage reflect on it that was really good so u wanted that reflect. Sure it ended up with some over healing but at least healing wasn't always a loss of dps.

healers kind of need moer sources of damage to rely less on their DD and their DoT

Bring back buffs. Let healers have stuff like Protect, Shell, etc back. Give them something to do that's not healing or DPS. It's ridiculous that these were removed to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Wolfsbane706

Bring back buffs. Let healers have stuff like Protect, Shell, etc back. Give them something to do that's not healing or DPS. It's ridiculous that these were removed to begin with.

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protect was stupid, there was nothing to play around with, it was on always and that's it, now if they would have changed it to a meaningful buff that would last like 20 seconds and made it oGCD that would have been cool, like an extra defensive cd to tanks. Shell could be a similar buff but for magic damage.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

protect was stupid, there was nothing to play around with, it was on always and that's it, now if they would have changed it to a meaningful buff that would last like 20 seconds and made it oGCD that would have been cool, like an extra defensive cd to tanks. Shell could be a similar buff but for magic damage.

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How about offensive buffs like Faith, Bravery, Haste, etc.?

I once played an awful free-to-play MMO (which I won't name drop) that had a class mechanic for the "more healing"-focused healer. Every time you cast any spell, regardless of type (heal, damage, buff), it would give you a 5 second buff that increased your passive MP regeneration by 10%. It stacked up to 10 times, giving you a maximum of doubled MP recovery. Now, with MP economy being what it is in this game, obviously that specific reward wouldn't be nearly as attractive. But imagine. A passive ability, that doesn't interfere with anything else you're doing, that provides a meaningful reward for riding your GCD whether you're healing, damaging, or passing out buffs that leaves a bit of wiggle room and rewards you for playing the game correctly. What a world that would be.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I once played an awful free-to-play MMO (which I won't name drop) that had a class mechanic for the "more healing"-focused healer. Every time you cast any spell, regardless of type (heal, damage, buff), it would give you a 5 second buff that increased your passive MP regeneration by 10%. It stacked up to 10 times, giving you a maximum of doubled MP recovery. Now, with MP economy being what it is in this game, obviously that specific reward wouldn't be nearly as attractive. But imagine. A passive ability, that doesn't interfere with anything else you're doing, that provides a meaningful reward for riding your GCD whether you're healing, damaging, or passing out buffs that leaves a bit of wiggle room and rewards you for playing the game correctly. What a world that would be.

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Edit: (Misread.)

Doesn't that just indicate too high a base cost on (filler) spells if you need a mechanic just to be able to continue casting consistently?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

How is wasteful healing, just to recover MP spent on wasteful healing, "playing the game correctly"?

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I don't think you read the post with care.

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Originally Posted by Wolfsbane706

How about offensive buffs like Faith, Bravery, Haste, etc.?

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I would like that, of course they would have to balance them across different healers but I have always loved buffing. That is why I liked the old astro.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

How is wasteful healing, just to recover MP spent on wasteful healing, "playing the game correctly"?

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Any spell. Not healing spells. Any. A reward for keeping your casts consistently rolling, which *is* playing the game correctly.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Any spell. Not healing spells. Any. A reward for keeping your casts consistently rolling, which *is* playing the game correctly.

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My mistake. I did indeed misread.

Though I fail to see how it influences gameplay in any way. "Always Be Casting" is a rule anyone but a "pure-healer" tends to have down from level 10 or so. So you reward people for doing the obvious by letting them do more of the obvious? The exact same result would be achieved with reduced MP costs relative to the base regen rate (especially on "filler" or "spammed" spells), so that at no point players would be obliged to stop casting.

That you would ever have to stop casting without having deliberately sacrificed mana for a niche nuke spell or the like indicates a specific desired gameplay loop. I don't understand why they would go out of their way to make that loop only to then undo it through another mechanic.

Note that I also said MP recovery isn't a reward that would do well in this game. My point was that there exists a game with a mechanic that rewards something like ABC, which is a good behavior to tie a reward to. As opposed to overhealing, which is a bad mechanic to tie rewards to.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Note that I also said MP recovery isn't a reward that would do well in this game. My point was that there exists a game with a mechanic that rewards something like ABC, which is a good behavior to tie a reward to. As opposed to overhealing, which is a bad mechanic to tie rewards to.

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And my point is that the reward inherent in the behavior itself is plenty sufficient as is, just as the reward of rDPS from a healer dpsing as much as possible is a plentiful reward for the healer dpsing as much as possible. How much is possible may vary, but good behavior is always going to be based around maximizing whichever outputs -- and since effective healing is capped while damage is not, that's ultimately going to mean damage, especially in low healing requirements.

The only thing that will make healing seem more worthwhile is for more healing to need to be done. The most we can really hope for are output-trades, whereby I heal my tank more so s/he can take more risks and deal back damage equal or greater to what I lose from healing.

Making it more integral, however, gives many more possible solutions, so long as its mirror--damage-dealing--likewise has a place in those interactions. But, that is technically an entirely different issue.

As of the release of the Shadowbringers [5.0] patch, the ability to build the Limit Break Gauge with the use of healing was reduced.

This was actually discussed: the developers didn't like a particular speed run of Kefka that used healing and shielding to build the gauge. So the impactfulness of healing was a casualty.

Subjectively, that is some terribly dysfunctional goal prioritization. But as the evidence stands, you can assume healing, and its worthwhileness, is an afterthought.

Apperantly im not clear enough in my topic opening comment, im trying to be mild but people cant dead my mind (which is my bad)

DPS AND TANK ARE DYING
Why would i complain if NOBODY is dying?

Lets not pretend that all healer that attempt to heal the bare minimum never let anyone die, they let's admit people die and wipe a lot more than their dgc dps worth

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Apperantly im not clear enough in my topic opening comment, im trying to be mild but people cant dead my mind (which is my bad)

DPS AND TANK ARE DYING
Why would i complain if NOBODY is dying?

Lets not pretend that all healer that attempt to heal the bare minimum never let anyone die, they let's admit people die and wipe a lot more than their dgc dps worth

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I died because the tank didn’t grab aggro of the group!
We died to enrage because the DPS are bad!
I know. Let’s reward tanks for holding aggro and DPS for doing damage!

Why should the bare minimum require rewarding? If people are dying and it’s the healer’s fault, then that healer needs to improve.

Dps being rewarded for doing damage a reward called DPS

Tank not holding agro is you get a very and i mean VERY VERY BERY bad tank, or you are talking about 4.0, i do however think tank being rewarded some nuke bonus for holding agro is a choice for more gameplay interaction, just make sure to put in the 1st and 2nd in agro list get the reward ;p

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Dps being rewarded for doing damage a reward called DPS

Tank not holding agro is you get a very and i mean VERY VERY BERY bad tank, or you are talking about 4.0, i do however think tank being rewarded some nuke bonus for holding agro is a choice for more gameplay interaction, just make sure to put in the 1st and 2nd in agro list get the reward ;p

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There is already a reward for everybody doing the bare minimum though. It’s called ‘Duty Complete’

Again im mostly implying to the healer that let their dps and tank dying by pretending they alreay healing their part while its not, so nope no clear...

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Again im mostly implying to the healer that let their dps and tank dying by pretending they alreay healing their part while its not, so nope no clear...

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Then perhaps they need to heal more then? They made the meme “Healers Adjust” for a reason, and this is probably one of many. Whenever a party member makes a mistake that reduces their HP significantly, it costs Healers either oGCDs or GCDs and MP to heal them up or raise. This also leads to a loss of healer uptime for BOTH healers in regards to an 8-man party in most cases. A lot of this is just cooperating with your co-healer and working together to not overheal what isn’t needed(check Shurrikhan’s post above in regards to healing being capped).

Scholar main- I do miss all of the DOTS. I really felt like I was contributing. Even if I was focused on healing I was still doing damage. There is nothing wrong with the current iteration. That feeling is just gone.

Let's be real, Eos is the healer, I'm a DPS with a quick queue time.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Then perhaps they need to heal more then? They made the meme “Healers Adjust” for a reason, and this is probably one of many. Whenever a party member makes a mistake that reduces their HP significantly, it costs Healers either oGCDs or GCDs and MP to heal them up or raise. This also leads to a loss of healer uptime for BOTH healers in regards to an 8-man party in most cases. A lot of this is just cooperating with your co-healer and working together to not overheal what isn’t needed(check Shurrikhan’s post above in regards to healing being capped).

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Yup they need to heal more often, and again yes healing to care others than make a mechanic mistake atm is a loss to the healer dps, which is why i actually suggest an idea to make healer mechanism that making healing is not a loss... which idk seems like most of the main healer in this forum dont like the idea whitout even try to give a better idea or even discussing (i say most not all)

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Yup they need to heal more often, and again yes healing to care others than make a mechanic mistake atm is a loss to the healer dps, which is why i actually suggest an idea to make healer mechanism that making healing is not a loss... which idk seems like most of the main healer in this forum dont like the idea whitout even try to give a better idea or even discussing (i say most not all)

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If you have a system where healing is a gain youve not changed anything, you've just added a system where people will just do empty healing to do more damage, which isnt fun

If you add a system where healing is dps neutral then thats just kinda bland/ what we already have with off global healing

Personally I'm a fan of the sch approach where healing and dps use the same rescource, because then you really see a defined skillgap when you look at combined healer damage logs where people have optimised the best they can.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Apperantly im not clear enough in my topic opening comment, im trying to be mild but people cant dead my mind (which is my bad)

DPS AND TANK ARE DYING
Why would i complain if NOBODY is dying?

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We're experiencing different things then. For me, I find it's the high damage healers that are healing well. They're usually the players who are more advanced with the class. They don't panic heal, hardcast rez on dps when the tanks are dying or hesitate in combat and they often know when the next raidwide aoe is or how much danger each player is in. When a group is dying constantly due to poor heals, you often find the healer damage is low too. In other words, an inexperienced player.

Sure you occasionally get the odd parse-hogging exception, but even then it's rare, they usually aren't a good player and they're trying to compensate. Some of the top damage healers could switch to 90th+ percentile healing in a flash if anything went bad and will recognize a group they need to pay extra attention almost from the start.

There is no point punishing the entire healer playerbase with a bonkers system that promotes hogging heals, personally rewards you for being in a bad group and makes you worthless in the overworld, all because of a tiny handful of bad players.

The thing is that with how damage is structured in 14, there is a theoretically finite amount of damage that goes out to players, assuming people are doing what they should. Consequently, there is a finite amount of healing that needs to be done before any extra healing is unnecessary.
There isn't such an upper limit for dps. More dps is always worth having. Unlike healing, you can't over dps (in normal scenarios at least).

Without restructuring how damage goes out or gimping heals, there isn't much of a way to make healers purely focus on healing.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

The thing is that with how damage is structured in 14, there is a theoretically finite amount of damage that goes out to players, assuming people are doing what they should. Consequently, there is a finite amount of healing that needs to be done before any extra healing is unnecessary.
There isn't such an upper limit for dps. More dps is always worth having. Unlike healing, you can't over dps (in normal scenarios at least).

Without restructuring how damage goes out or gimping heals, there isn't much of a way to make healers purely focus on healing.

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The only scenarios when too much FPS was a bad thing was back when bosses had HP thresholds for certain phases. Ifrit EX was the biggest example because if you DPS’d him too fast(same with Leviathan EX), you’d force a wipe on the party due to the Ult or simply just because you hit too hard.

Speaking of which, I wouldn’t mind this mechanic in Ultimate since it forces you to stop at certain thresholds before pushing more.

I feel this dps vs. not dps debate is missing the forest for the trees. It's not that people want to do nothing but heal, it's that people want to play a support role but there is precious little support to perform when there's no damage coming out. Unfortunately, FFXIV has stripped its battle system to the bone in the name of raw balance and parity, so there is precious-little room for utility buffing, debuffing or CC or mob management-- things you'd find in a typical support-based toolkit-- that would allow healers an option other than being a "green dps."

Unfortunately, that is reality. In this game, as it is set up now, if you're not healing, then you are dpsing.

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Originally Posted by Verlyn

I feel this dps vs. not dps debate is missing the forest for the trees. It's not that people want to do nothing but heal, it's that people want to play a support role but there is precious little support to perform when there's no damage coming out. Unfortunately, FFXIV has stripped its battle system to the bone in the name of raw balance and parity, so there is precious-little room for utility buffing, debuffing or CC or mob management-- things you'd find in a typical support-based toolkit-- that would allow healers an option other than being a "green dps."

Unfortunately, that is reality. In this game, as it is set up now, if you're not healing, then you are dpsing.

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Just need a healer who heals while dpsing. Stone hits for 20k everyone gets healed for 20k.

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Originally Posted by Verlyn

I feel this dps vs. not dps debate is missing the forest for the trees. It's not that people want to do nothing but heal, it's that people want to play a support role but there is precious little support to perform when there's no damage coming out. Unfortunately, FFXIV has stripped its battle system to the bone in the name of raw balance and parity, so there is precious-little room for utility buffing, debuffing or CC or mob management-- things you'd find in a typical support-based toolkit-- that would allow healers an option other than being a "green dps."

Unfortunately, that is reality. In this game, as it is set up now, if you're not healing, then you are dpsing.

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If we had a healer that couldn't use any dps abilities while it was healing and the downtime would be filled with meaningful buffing I would play it asap, I don't particularly enjoy doing dps as a healer but I dislike not doing anything and standing still even more.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

If we had a healer that couldn't use any dps abilities while it was healing and the downtime would be filled with meaningful buffing I would play it asap, I don't particularly enjoy doing dps as a healer but I dislike not doing anything and standing still even more.

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If you're just spamming your 'buff' gcd on the strongest ally what difference is that to spamming a damage skill on the boss? How would a class with no way to damage do solo duties and overworld activities?

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

If you're just spamming your 'buff' gcd on the strongest ally what difference is that to spamming a damage skill on the boss? How would a class with no way to damage do solo duties and overworld activities?

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This. We have to still consider solo content in this regard, as the average player would think “Well, guess Healers are boring now that they do no damage!” Kinda like how every healer on the planet went up with pitchforks and torches when it came to the Healer Balance scandal. Still, I would prefer this than a true pure healer that only heals since when you’ve healed all there is to heal, the question becomes “What now?”

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

.... Our DPS output could be reduced to 3.x levels and we'd still be advocating for DPS contribution because it's more worthwhile than standing around with our fingers up our noses. I play videogames with other people to actively contribute to the group effort, not so I can watch them do everything for me and occasionally lift a finger when I'm actually needed.

Bad players are going to be bad players no matter what tools they have access to. Blaming it on the evil boogeyman that is DPS skills is dumb.

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this this this I LOVE YOU THIS!!

literally this is about having the option to do something, feel fulfilled- it can be done, and doesn't have to just be a tank and dps class to do it.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

If you have a system where healing is a gain youve not changed anything, you've just added a system where people will just do empty healing to do more damage, which isnt fun

If you add a system where healing is dps neutral then thats just kinda bland/ what we already have with off global healing

Personally I'm a fan of the sch approach where healing and dps use the same rescource, because then you really see a defined skillgap when you look at combined healer damage logs where people have optimised the best they can.

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but wouldn't t make heal and dps using the same resource make healer refuse to heal even more? Like why should i heal you and decrease my dps mind... All aetherflow on energy drain sch come to mind.

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Originally Posted by Kinks

this this this I LOVE YOU THIS!!

literally this is about having the option to do something, feel fulfilled- it can be done, and doesn't have to just be a tank and dps class to do it.

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This is not a thread about healer shouldnt dps-ing its a thread about how to make healer heal without losing dps, thank you.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

but wouldn't t make heal and dps using the same resource make healer refuse to heal even more? Like why should i heal you and decrease my dps mind... All aetherflow on energy drain sch come to mind.



This is not a thread about healer shouldnt dps-ing its a thread about how to make healer heal without losing dps, thank you.

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SCHs that use every single aetherflow on energy drain are doomed to fail, as are the ones that only use it to heal. Healing is a balance that healers need to learn. Healing is also a group effort. Many DPS forget they have tools like second wind, blood bath, addle, feint, etc. That all help with healing. Good healers should not be punished because of the ones that do not properly use their tools. SCH aetherflow is a good idea, but I think it needs more decisions to it, I need more give and take other than energy drain/healing if I can't have my DPS abilities back.

As for making healers heal without losing DPS,I don't see that ever being a thing, because of how the game is designed. If healing was DPS neutral/ DPS gains then healing would become too easy. If healers fail because they didn't heal enough and went too far on the DPS side? Good, they need to learn from it, same for the healers that let their team hit enraged because they spent too much time healing and not enough time DPSing. The equivalent would be like saying "find a way to make DPS not do their rotation but not lose DPS", then where does the challenge come from?

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

As for making healers heal without losing DPS,I don't see that ever being a thing, because of how the game is designed. If healing was DPS neutral/ DPS gains then healing would become too easy. If healers fail because they didn't heal enough and went too far on the DPS side? Good, they need to learn from it, same for the healers that let their team hit enraged because they spent too much time healing and not enough time DPSing. The equivalent would be like saying "find a way to make DPS not do their rotation but not lose DPS", then where does the challenge come from?

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Didn't SE do exactly what OP is proposing with tanks though? A stance you activate once that automatically fulfills your primary role when using dps skills, making you unable to fail as long as you're pressing buttons?

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Originally Posted by AikenDrum

Didn't SE do exactly what OP is proposing with tanks though? A stance you activate once that automatically fulfills your primary role when using dps skills, making you unable to fail as long as you're pressing buttons?

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Aggro was rarely an issue back in SB, unless you had a WHM tbh. You would start the fight in tank stance, establish aggro, then turn off tank stance, so those changes just changed openers and not really much else. A tanks true job is CDing when necessary, knowing when to tank swap, and where to position the boss, all Of which are still in tact and the same as ever. Making healers DPS and heal at the same time, and making it DPS neutral or a DPS gain would make healing even more brain dead simple and easy than it already is, and I don't want what little complexity I have in my job being stripped away from me.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

but wouldn't t make heal and dps using the same resource make healer refuse to heal even more? Like why should i heal you and decrease my dps mind... All aetherflow on energy drain sch come to mind.



This is not a thread about healer shouldnt dps-ing its a thread about how to make healer heal without losing dps, thank you.

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and this was my response to that concept;

" 2. Decrease the normal Dps spell potency (Glare/Broil/Etc)
The idea is to make people who actually heal and care for your party..."

The reward for healing is that your party is not dead, if you don't heal, people will die, simple.
If I don't heal, my party dies. I think that's incentive enough to care.

anyways, someone happened to beat me to a good response.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Aggro was rarely an issue back in SB, unless you had a WHM tbh. You would start the fight in tank stance, establish aggro, then turn off tank stance, so those changes just changed openers and not really much else. A tanks true job is CDing when necessary, knowing when to tank swap, and where to position the boss, all Of which are still in tact and the same as ever. Making healers DPS and heal at the same time, and making it DPS neutral or a DPS gain would make healing even more brain dead simple and easy than it already is, and I don't want what little complexity I have in my job being stripped away from me.

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Hmm i guess maintaining aggro was less of an issue than healing is, but i still wonder what was the reason behind simplifying it; and if the reason was that failing other tank jobs (apart from boss positioning) mainly got tank killed, while failing to maintain aggro got other people (dps) killed, then healing complexity might also be in trouble ^^

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

If you're just spamming your 'buff' gcd on the strongest ally what difference is that to spamming a damage skill on the boss? How would a class with no way to damage do solo duties and overworld activities?

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Notice I said meaningful buffing, you just assumed that it would be like that. No, I meant that if we would have meaningful and interesting things to do during downtime it would be better, I didn't even say it has to buff damage. The point is that at least myself I don't particularly enjoy doing dps during the downtime, but it's the only thing to do. The problem is that a lot of healing is not required and during long downtimes we either have two things to do 1. dps 2. nothing. I actually remember back when healers doing damage wasn't in the meta I enjoyed applying stoneskins to people during downtime, I dunno maybe that's just me but I like playing support way more and that's why I picked a healer back in 2.0. Now I am not saying that is the solution, that shit wouldn't fly today, but I found it more enjoyable.

EDIT: notice I also said "while it was healing" implying that you could choose between healing and doing dps beforehand but that wasn't nowhere near the point, it was an example meant to illustrate different things to do during downtime.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

If you're just spamming your 'buff' gcd on the strongest ally what difference is that to spamming a damage skill on the boss? How would a class with no way to damage do solo duties and overworld activities?

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Ideally there wouldn't just be one "buff" GCD to manage or "debuff" GCD to manage. Squeenix would have to design some actual gameplay around support for the whole idea to work. Right now they're just stripping away the tools by a thousand cuts so that gameplay cannot exist.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

SCHs that use every single aetherflow on energy drain are doomed to fail, as are the ones that only use it to heal. Healing is a balance that healers need to learn. Healing is also a group effort. Many DPS forget they have tools like second wind, blood bath, addle, feint, etc. That all help with healing. Good healers should not be punished because of the ones that do not properly use their tools. SCH aetherflow is a good idea, but I think it needs more decisions to it, I need more give and take other than energy drain/healing if I can't have my DPS abilities back.

As for making healers heal without losing DPS,I don't see that ever being a thing, because of how the game is designed. If healing was DPS neutral/ DPS gains then healing would become too easy. If healers fail because they didn't heal enough and went too far on the DPS side? Good, they need to learn from it, same for the healers that let their team hit enraged because they spent too much time healing and not enough time DPSing. The equivalent would be like saying "find a way to make DPS not do their rotation but not lose DPS", then where does the challenge come from?

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There's only a finite amount of heal you can heal in a fight, wont having a nuke that can only be done after a certain amount of healing would make interaction between heal and dps-ing more interesting? since you need to heal as much as possible WITHOUT overheal too much (lets not count overheal since... its overheal), at least i think its gonna be more its challenging than dps-ing while praying nobody make any mistake... imo, i think... not sure?

Ps. Just try healing savage so that i can understand more healer POV and manage to do E3s just fine with 450 eden normal gear (with a good healing partner that tell me when to heal at VC though... lol)

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Originally Posted by Kinks

and this was my response to that concept;

" 2. Decrease the normal Dps spell potency (Glare/Broil/Etc)
The idea is to make people who actually heal and care for your party..."

The reward for healing is that your party is not dead, if you don't heal, people will die, simple.
If I don't heal, my party dies. I think that's incentive enough to care.

anyways, someone happened to beat me to a good response.

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1. Make it so that healer have a gauge that can only be accumulated by healing and raise (don't count overheal), that can be used to dish out a BIG Dps

AND

2. Decrease the normal Dps spell potency (Glare/Broil/Etc

Apperantly people tend to miss the and part? Number 2 is there to balance the dps, since we dont want just give healer another nuke and raising their dps again, please dont just read the nerf, and ignore the buff they are a set in one idea, thank you.