I thought Yoshi wants healer to focus on healing only..

Rarely see healers that don't dps. On the contrary getting some to cast an actual heal spell can be something. Threads like this are a big to do about nothing really in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Small problem with that: Unless the other two healers are LITERALLY unable to put out enough healing to clear, why would anyone bring the job that can only heal and literally do absolutely nothing else?

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The playstyle ‘types’ are just for example’s sake than being an actually workable concept. Naturally a healer doing just healing wouldn’t be worth taking over ones that can do support or deal damage, I more mean the concept of ‘standard healer’, ‘DPS heavy healer’, ‘support like healer’, within the context of ffxiv design (they all need a DoT and nuke, basic heal spell and aoe, etc). Basically what they seem to have tried to do with the current three healers. Having 3 different and distinct playstyles makes balancing 3 times more difficult than if they were all similar, which I do get, but I feel like there could be a happy medium between making them feel more unique without creating a significant balance issue. Each healer would still need some kind of ‘damage rotation’ and the like, but they could surely do a bit more to at least make the DPS ‘rotations’ feel less like clones of each other. Even if it’s something simple like WHM does direct damage, Scholar does DoTs, Astrologian has a weaker DoTs but makes up DPS difference in cards. We essentially already have the concept in place, it just hasn’t been executed very well I think.

What I’m trying to say is that even though healers are limited in how different they can be (for balance sake) I still think they could do more to make them feel a bit more distinct from each other

give me a melee healer

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Originally Posted by Connor

The playstyle ‘types’ are just for example’s sake than being an actually workable concept. Naturally a healer doing just healing wouldn’t be worth taking over ones that can do support or deal damage, I more mean the concept of ‘standard healer’, ‘DPS heavy healer’, ‘support like healer’, within the context of ffxiv design (they all need a DoT and nuke, basic heal spell and aoe, etc). Basically what they seem to have tried to do with the current three healers. Having 3 different and distinct playstyles makes balancing 3 times more difficult than if they were all similar, which I do get, but I feel like there could be a happy medium between making them feel more unique without creating a significant balance issue. Each healer would still need some kind of ‘damage rotation’ and the like, but they could surely do a bit more to at least make the DPS ‘rotations’ feel less like clones of each other. Even if it’s something simple like WHM does direct damage, Scholar does DoTs, Astrologian has a weaker DoTs but makes up DPS difference in cards. We essentially already have the concept in place, it just hasn’t been executed very well I think.

What I’m trying to say is that even though healers are limited in how different they can be (for balance sake) I still think they could do more to make them feel a bit more distinct from each other

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Regardless, having something that focuses on healing output as its primary focus is inherently limited. When player skill and gear improves, the healing requirement becomes easier and easier. Consideration must always be given to what a healer does when healing is no longer required. If healing is the primary focus, then even if it's not literally incapable of anything else, it's still by nature less effective than every other healer once that threshold is reached.

I feel healers should be treated in a similar manner to tanks, where their kit for performing their primary function (healing in this case) is largely similar and fairly simple and easy, with mechanics and differences reserved for their secondary functions.

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Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

give me a melee healer

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Oh like dancer in ffxi?

Oops too soon

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Oh like dancer in ffxi?

Oops too soon

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FFXI dancer is not a healer... it's a bursty support dps. Sound familiar?

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Regardless, having something that focuses on healing output as its primary focus is inherently limited. When player skill and gear improves, the healing requirement becomes easier and easier. Consideration must always be given to what a healer does when healing is no longer required. If healing is the primary focus, then even if it's not literally incapable of anything else, it's still by nature less effective than every other healer once that threshold is reached.

I feel healers should be treated in a similar manner to tanks, where their kit for performing their primary function (healing in this case) is largely similar and fairly simple and easy, with mechanics and differences reserved for their secondary functions.

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I think you may have misunderstood in the first part. By ‘healing oriented plastyle’ type healer I still mean ‘healing oriented within the context of ffxiv’. For example, a job that’s a middle group between the more damage oriented healer and the supportive one, with direct healing/ damage output instead of DoTs or heal shields etc. It would still have to have a strong DPS rotation like any other job to justify its existence. It’s also worth considering that a ‘DPS through healing’ job could possibly allow a ‘healing oriented’ playstyle without the limitations of being a ‘pure healer’ I’m not suggesting that there should be a healer that ‘just heal’, just one that more direct with their abilities (e.g White Mage). If healer A does good DPS with strong direct healing, healer B does more DPS with DoTs but less direct healing options, and healer C provides party support but at the cost of personal DPS, surely there’s incentive to take each of the three

The second part is what I’ve been trying to say. Healers need homogenisation but that doesn’t mean they can’t have their own distinct ‘feel’, even if it’s just something like changing up the damage rotations to feel less similar between the three jobs. It’s also an unfortunate inevitability that with three jobs it’s not mathematically feasible for them to be identically balanced unless they’re the same job three times over. Making a gap as small as possible is all they can really do

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Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

give me a melee healer

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i am not sure how this work, especially I am already running left and right in Alliance Raid trying to keep everyone HP top

a healer heal at melee range will fail miserably or have very OP spell

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Regardless, having something that focuses on healing output as its primary focus is inherently limited. When player skill and gear improves, the healing requirement becomes easier and easier. Consideration must always be given to what a healer does when healing is no longer required. If healing is the primary focus, then even if it's not literally incapable of anything else, it's still by nature less effective than every other healer once that threshold is reached.

I feel healers should be treated in a similar manner to tanks, where their kit for performing their primary function (healing in this case) is largely similar and fairly simple and easy, with mechanics and differences reserved for their secondary functions.

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This is one of the biggest issue we have, the power creep have lose control. We could have tighter il sync, and receiving dmg more frequently, a tune down to our healing potency especially oGCD one would help shifting the fighting trend to more balance of heal and DPS, unlike currently which even a healer can spend more time on DPS than heal

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Not true.

Using the website that shall not be named on encounters on EX and above at minimum ilv, if you took the required raid dps and removed healers from the equation, the dps would all have to be playing at 95th to over 100th percentile. We're talking better than padded world first players. This often isn't realistically possible and is far more than intended for EX.

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So git gud scrub? Seriously, if you're doing things because you're at minimum ilvl (which is surprisingly low this expansion) and expect healers to pick up your slack on top of cleaning up your mess, then clearly you just want a carry.

Honestly, with the changes to make tanks easier to play, giving them more damage options while removing a good portion of their defensive cooldowns all while having mobs hit harder....it all makes me wonder why tanks are still being given mounts in the first place when it should be healers instead for having to do their job AND the DPSs job at the same time. I'm not saying "healers shouldn't dps", I'm saying that it should not be a requirement and that DPS players (and maybe tank players too) should git gud.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

So git gud scrub? Seriously, if you're doing things because you're at minimum ilvl (which is surprisingly low this expansion) and expect healers to pick up your slack on top of cleaning up your mess, then clearly you just want a carry.

Honestly, with the changes to make tanks easier to play, giving them more damage options while removing a good portion of their defensive cooldowns all while having mobs hit harder....it all makes me wonder why tanks are still being given mounts in the first place when it should be healers instead for having to do their job AND the DPSs job at the same time. I'm not saying "healers shouldn't dps", I'm saying that it should not be a requirement and that DPS players (and maybe tank players too) should git gud.

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"Get gud" doesn't work here when a bunch of DPS can't even reach the DPS needed for E4S if we don't factor in healer damage. AS in the classes just aren't strong enough to get passed the enrage timer.

If you want to beat the Savage enrage timers currently, either healers need to DPS, AND be good at it - or DPS all need to be BLM/DRG/Monk

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

So git gud scrub? Seriously, if you're doing things because you're at minimum ilvl (which is surprisingly low this expansion) and expect healers to pick up your slack on top of cleaning up your mess, then clearly you just want a carry.

Honestly, with the changes to make tanks easier to play, giving them more damage options while removing a good portion of their defensive cooldowns all while having mobs hit harder....it all makes me wonder why tanks are still being given mounts in the first place when it should be healers instead for having to do their job AND the DPSs job at the same time. I'm not saying "healers shouldn't dps", I'm saying that it should not be a requirement and that DPS players (and maybe tank players too) should git gud.

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With current Savage, there is no option to “git gud”. Players simply don’t have the gear to pass the enrage if the healers sit on their thumbs the entire fight. It’s to be expected when players attempt the content Week 1, because we are all at minimum item level right now. Not by choice—we just haven’t gotten an opportunity to gear up since gearing is gated.

All that said, why are the DPS told to “git gud” just so healers can AFK for 50% or more of the fight?

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

I'm not saying "healers shouldn't dps", I'm saying that it should not be a requirement and that DPS players (and maybe tank players too) should git gud.

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I get what you’re saying, healers shouldn’t feel pressure to DPS in normal content because ultimately it’s unnecessary. In Savage progression though, it’s through maximising DPS to clear the content where you couldn’t if you just left it to the DPS that a healer ‘gits gud’ in the first place in current high end content. It’s unfortunate, but this trend won’t ever go away, so healers in high end content will always be expected to contribute the DPS required to avoid enrage in savage content shortly after release, and should go into the fights with this expectation. There isn’t anything else for healers to contribute or maximise except DPS anyway once they meet the minuscule healing requirements and plan out healing ability usage anyway

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

Its interesting you mentioned wall to wall, that's also a problem in the game. It is not an intended mechanic, otherwise why not just have 60 enemies appear in one room. I think we need to wall off every single room, lower the potency and get back to basics.

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They tried this with a few Heavensward dungeons. It didn't last because people kept complaining how boring things were. As someone who plays healers, I want wall to wall pulls otherwise I'm bored since there's almost nothing to heal. I'm just a glorified DPS—more than I already am.

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Originally Posted by MaraD_

despite what everyone keeps saying, his statement was in CONTEXT of SCHs shielding, and not contributing to healing.
So it was a comparison to "lesser healing+ shielding" vs "healing focused" types of healers.
he felt the devs should focus on designing healers mostly on being able to heal.

NA players mistook that to mean, heal over DPS.

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Yea, just NA players...smdh

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

"Get gud" doesn't work here when a bunch of DPS can't even reach the DPS needed for E4S if we don't factor in healer damage. AS in the classes just aren't strong enough to get passed the enrage timer.

If you want to beat the Savage enrage timers currently, either healers need to DPS, AND be good at it - or DPS all need to be BLM/DRG/Monk

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Actually that is precisely why "Get gud" applies. Bleeding edge content with minimal gear will take the full party doing everything possible to clear.

The problem isn't in the bleeding edge content, its in the normal day to day content. Which is pretty easy to surpass that bare minimum clear threshold to where the healers dps should not be necessary, yet if you go browse the tales from the DF thread you will find plenty of examples of groups that struggle to hit that point and the only real reason they clear is most dungeon bosses don't have an enrage+wipe mechanic. One of my personal favorite examples is a group that had Aenc Thon transform twice.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

Actually that is precisely why "Get gud" applies. Bleeding edge content with minimal gear will take the full party doing everything possible to clear.

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Which means healers have to contribute to damage when doing content at the minimum item level. The poster Hash_Browns was replying to was saying that DPS should “just git gud” so that healers aren’t required to DPS under some pretense that the healers are “carrying” the DPS and “picking up slack”—but that’s simply not feasible in early Savage before players get better gear. Everyone has to contribute because the party won’t make the enrage for the third and fourth fights otherwise at minimum item level. And that doesn’t mean that the healers are carrying anyone—it’s just straight up impossible without their contribution because DPS jobs aren’t powerful enough even at 100% optimized.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

Actually that is precisely why "Get gud" applies. Bleeding edge content with minimal gear will take the full party doing everything possible to clear.

The problem isn't in the bleeding edge content, its in the normal day to day content. Which is pretty easy to surpass that bare minimum clear threshold to where the healers dps should not be necessary, yet if you go browse the tales from the DF thread you will find plenty of examples of groups that struggle to hit that point and the only real reason they clear is most dungeon bosses don't have an enrage+wipe mechanic. One of my personal favorite examples is a group that had Aenc Thon transform twice.

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I'm not talking about DF PUG crap where we all realize the Black Mage has been spamming B1, and nothing else. I'm talking about the savage content.
If you want to rag, and kick all the horrible DPS in the normal mode content, be my guest, because I certainly hate dealing with tanks that don't use cooldowns, DPS that don't AOE - or have a rotation at level 80, and also healers that don't DPS.

Like it or not - healers need to DPS for the endgame content.

And if you want a breakdown of what I mean:

12,000DPS from each DPS class
7,000DPS from each tank class
6,000DPS from each healer class

That's the minimum requirement to make it through E4S enrage, with some give being the DPS spread differently. MINIMUM.

So a fail game design
high end fight that have healer dps into account, meaning dev cant output too much damage received by the party, making less challenge content healing become a green dps where we spend more than 50% of our time dps.
When healer DPS ppl say it is not using the full kit, now the dev just turn it into the other extend, we barely using our GCD heal in any non top tier fight

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Originally Posted by Moonfish

Healer DPS will always be expected unless SE disables their DPS buttons in group content. Get used to it.

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This. People who whine about 'Being forced to play two roles' when they're only expected to press one button every thirty seconds and another singular button so you don't have GCDs need to get over themselves.

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

So a fail game design
high end fight that have healer dps into account, meaning dev cant output too much damage received by the party, making less challenge content healing become a green dps where we spend more than 50% of our time dps.
When healer DPS ppl say it is not using the full kit, now the dev just turn it into the other extend, we barely using our GCD heal in any non top tier fight

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It’s Week 1 Savage. That’s not a failure in game design. Yoshida has said in the past that players who attempt early Savage clears will have to rely on their healers contributing because the party does not have the cushion of better gear to push numbers. As for Ultimate, the design requiring healer DPS was intentional. It’s the hardest content in the game. Sorry that you can’t skate by doing only 50%, I guess?

While more outgoing damage would be welcome by the good healers, those who are not good healers would just complain that “content hits too hard now” and “needs to be nerfed”. This song has been sung repeatedly throughout this game’s existence.

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

So a fail game design
high end fight that have healer dps into account, meaning dev cant output too much damage received by the party, making less challenge content healing become a green dps where we spend more than 50% of our time dps.
When healer DPS ppl say it is not using the full kit, now the dev just turn it into the other extend, we barely using our GCD heal in any non top tier fight

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In the high end fights, making a mistake isn't going to get you healed - it's going to kill you or the party. Healing is only used for unavoidable damage in Savage content.

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Originally Posted by Nomuno

Yea, just NA players...smdh

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bad habit of mine, meant western players.
corrected in the original post.
Granted i only seen how the JP players reacted vs english speakers, so western is just a vague representation at best.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Which means healers have to contribute to damage when doing content at the minimum item level. The poster Hash_Browns was replying to was saying that DPS should “just git gud” so that healers aren’t required to DPS under some pretense that the healers are “carrying” the DPS and “picking up slack”—but that’s simply not feasible in early Savage before players get better gear. Everyone has to contribute because the party won’t make the enrage for the third and fourth fights otherwise at minimum item level. And that doesn’t mean that the healers are carrying anyone—it’s just straight up impossible without their contribution because DPS jobs aren’t powerful enough even at 100% optimized.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

I'm not talking about DF PUG crap where we all realize the Black Mage has been spamming B1, and nothing else. I'm talking about the savage content.
If you want to rag, and kick all the horrible DPS in the normal mode content, be my guest, because I certainly hate dealing with tanks that don't use cooldowns, DPS that don't AOE - or have a rotation at level 80, and also healers that don't DPS.

Like it or not - healers need to DPS for the endgame content.

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Maybe Kazrah, the one you two were replying to initially doesn't understand the difference or want to make the distinction between bleeding edge where healer dps is required, and any place where we actually meet the gear requirements for the content where healer dps should not be a factor. A lot of those claiming healers should never DPS seem to not want to make the distinction between the bleeding edge content and everything else, ignoring that the devs did mention healer dps is needed to be able to clear content when it is bleeding edge.

But the reason I say "Get Gud" still applies is because if they start tuning everything so a competent bleeding edge Savage+ healer has to do nothing but heal, one of two things is likely to happen, an overall nerf to content due to lower overall DPS check requirements, or potential shortage of healers/increase of prima donna healers as they now dictate if a run is pass/fail. And that design is unlikely to just stay at the savage tiers, it will influence all tiers. And more often the ones complaining about healers DPSing, are also those struggling to clear DF PUG content. Which is where I think there would be even more issues if healers were forced to just heal all the time for everything, if you still had any healers that didn't have a major ego after the fact of knowing they now fully dictated the pace of the group.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

The challenge I think devs are facing here is that they want healer damage as an option, but not a requirement. The problem is that players make it a requirement to compensate for how bad their DPS is.

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That's what the "bad" healers want to believe.

Even if you ignore the context of what the Dev wants, it simply comes down to "contribution" to the group.

- Early clears: even if you put all the top DPS and tanks together in the same group, that still won't be enough for a week 1 or week 2 clears when people don't have the gears for it if the healers don't contribute. If you don't want to DPS as a healer, then wait until a month or hell, echo where you may at least have some basic for your statement. But if you want your week 1 clear, then you must contribute, it has nothing to do with other people being bad.

- Late clear: and even if you had waited long enough for healer DPS no longer a factor. And also, from your words I assume you want your DPS to play perfectly ... then guess what, most fight in this game is designed in a way that if your party truly perform optimically, there is "very little" healing to do. So what, at that point, you don't DPS, you also don't have to heal, the question become: what exactly are you contributing to the group, or are just there to receive a free carry because you're a healer? If you already don't contribute when the party play badly, it just means you'll contribute even less if they party plays well.

Also, it's a human balance psychology things. Imagine if you live with 7 other peoples who hold each others equal, and technically only 4 of you have to work to get enough food for all 8. Do you think the group gonna last long if the other 4 just adopt a mindset of "well, if the other 4 works hard enough there is enough food for all of us, so I don't have to work for food" ? Saying "healer DPS shouldn't be necessary for clear" is the same-thing, it maybe, it maybe not, but the point is equal contribution.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

In the high end fights, making a mistake isn't going to get you healed - it's going to kill you or the party. Healing is only used for unavoidable damage in Savage content.

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then i think the game design have some fundamental issue
shouldn't a healer there to make room for player making mistake, not a lot and not the serious one of cause
but if Healer is only needed in those raid wide damage, arent it a bit boring, just like playing a rhythm game, you memorize the whole fight, and push the right button at the right time, zero dynamic

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

then i think the game design have some fundamental issue
shouldn't a healer there to make room for player making mistake, not a lot and not the serious one of cause
but if Healer is only needed in those raid wide damage, arent it a bit boring, just like playing a rhythm game, you memorize the whole fight, and push the right button at the right time, zero dynamic

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Or you know ... just accept the fact that the design of this game is different than other MMO? It's not a flaw because you don't like, it's not a flaw because "other MMO doesn't do it this way!".

I for once love this design philosophy. It requires people to be mindful of things outside of their role, instead of being just a single-minded job.

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

then i think the game design have some fundamental issue
shouldn't a healer there to make room for player making mistake, not a lot and not the serious one of cause
but if Healer is only needed in those raid wide damage, arent it a bit boring, just like playing a rhythm game, you memorize the whole fight, and push the right button at the right time, zero dynamic

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All fights in FFXIV are scripted.
All bosses will throw out mechanics in the exact same order, with the only exception being enrage timers triggering early due to slow add kills

It kind of amazes me how many people insist on stubbornly adhering to archaic rules in regards to class roles under the premise that because a healer isn't expected to deal damage in other games that the same rule applies here.

I realize this is a hard concept to grasp for a lot of people but not every game is the same. I dont care what content you do, sitting around doing nothing because you are waiting to perform the primary function of your job is unacceptable.


Any healer, regardless of the level of content they are doing that just sits there waiting to heal is hindering every group they are in. They are wasting everyone's time because all because they are insistent on being chained down to these arbitrary rules of "defined" class roles from other games.


This has nothing to do with dps needing "to git gud" and everything to do with lazy healers being detriments to groups they are in because they somehow think that as long as everyone is alive that they are doing their job.


Stop binding yourself to these silly rules of "Healers should only heal" adapt to how things are different here, you'll be thankful in the long run.

if they want healers to focus only on healing they need to not give every healer a million ways to heal off global cooldown
i do most content on scholar never using a basic healing spell... ever

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Rarely see healers that don't dps. On the contrary getting some to cast an actual heal spell can be something. Threads like this are a big to do about nothing really in my opinion.

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Actually now that I'm leveling my DPS and tanks, I've been seeing more and more healers spamming Cure 1 even when the healing isn't needed. I suppose it's because of the huge influx of new players we've been getting. I wonder if there's a way to solve this without saying something they would consider "toxic".

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Or you know ... just accept the fact that the design of this game is different than other MMO? It's not a flaw because you don't like, it's not a flaw because "other MMO doesn't do it this way!".

I for once love this design philosophy. It requires people to be mindful of things outside of their role, instead of being just a single-minded job.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

All fights in FFXIV are scripted.
All bosses will throw out mechanics in the exact same order, with the only exception being enrage timers triggering early due to slow add kills

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it wasnt like it back in 2.0, Benediction have a holy 300s CD, only that + regen + Cure II (not too sure on it) is oGCD
we have stone skin, protect and we work very well with SCH
during that time even Titan HM can kill you if slightly undergear (HP pool not large enough)
only when the powercreep with il sync being so high, and more more short CD but high potency oGCD everysingle expansion
and wanting a heal focus does not mean 100% heal
there are some middle ground in this "should healer dps" drama, I am not against heal DPS when there is downtime
I am just saying I like to see we revert back abit so we arent spending more time on dps than heal.
I want healing focus just mean more time actually healing like shifting to 70% heal and 30% dps...etc
yeah may be i am some old skool, but ARR WHM is what i attached to, and now it change to something very different, just like those player who enjoy HW DRK more than any expansion.
I am not asking to completely going back to ARR style, but something slightly more majority of uptime in healing and some downtime to dps style of game play. Or make good use of buff and debuff, AST have strong potential in becoming buffing healer...etc

They achieve this by making DPS spells on healers just a little bit more expensive. Unless you wanna run OOM like a third of the way through the encounter you stick to healing.

Not gonna happen, though.

I don't understand why this is such a heated debate tbh.

All that's being asked of healers is that if no healing is required, put a DoT up and press the single damage button given to you. Why is that such an unreasonable request that it triggers endless pages of argument and resistance?

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

it wasnt like it back in 2.0, Benediction have a holy 300s CD, only that + regen + Cure II (not too sure on it) is oGCD

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Not really, it's more like people haven't caught on the design different. I was a top ten US raid healer in WoW at the time I quit and switch to FF14. Joint an FC static and worked through coil, but my mindset was strictly a "healer only heal". Of course I immidiately noticed how little healing going out in this game. In WoW (or other MMO) there are always a constant ambient damage that needs constant heal, tanks constantly needed to be top off so they don't die to the mechanic. FF14's fight is designed with no consistent damage, but come in wave. Also, the healing potency in FF14 has always been massive in relative to the HP pools, meaning it takes less time to top someone off. So in between there is no other thing for healer to do.

Back then, when there is no healing, I cast SS on every one, and even then I still ran out of thing to do. I remember when the tank and DPS was working on the boss, I was doing emote/dance/ran around the arena "waiting" for the next mechanic to happen so I have something to heal again. And no one said anything, the thought of "maybe I should DPS with this much free time" didn't even cross my mind, and it seems didn't cross the mind of anyone else either. We were all above average so to speak, but it's little wonder why we can only clear the 3rd phase of each tier once we were stacked on gears, and even with echo, we still barely meet the enrage of the final phase. Thinking back, it's probably because the 2 healers did zero DPS, and the tanks probably didn't focus too much on DPS either. So what I am saying here is that the "design" of the content hasn't really changed since 2.0.

Alex kinda pushed healer's DPS into the spotlight, and even though it was the result of the fights were overturned, it also made people aware that "healer DPS can be a thing". In another word, what you remember wasn't a difference in design, but rather back in 2.0 the majority of the players simply hadn't caught on and played the game sub-optimally.

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Originally Posted by Moonfish

Healer DPS will always be expected unless SE disables their DPS buttons in group content. Get used to it.

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That's a bit of a broad statement there..as the fact it's not 100% true. Yes, it will be expected, but not from literally everyone in the community.

Yoshi simply tells players what they want to hear. Because he knows that the moment he says "yes, healers need to contribute with DPS", hell will break loose.

Look at this way. They designed a healer to do more potential DPS than a tank. Do you really think they expect you hot to use that?

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

"Get gud" doesn't work here when a bunch of DPS can't even reach the DPS needed for E4S if we don't factor in healer damage. AS in the classes just aren't strong enough to get passed the enrage timer.

If you want to beat the Savage enrage timers currently, either healers need to DPS, AND be good at it - or DPS all need to be BLM/DRG/Monk

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It's also content intended to last at least five or six months. It's the fault of the players for trying to rush it with minimal gear, where healer damage becomes less of an option and more of a competitive edge.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Also, it's a human balance psychology things. Imagine if you live with 7 other peoples who hold each others equal, and technically only 4 of you have to work to get enough food for all 8. Do you think the group gonna last long if the other 4 just adopt a mindset of "well, if the other 4 works hard enough there is enough food for all of us, so I don't have to work for food" ? Saying "healer DPS shouldn't be necessary for clear" is the same-thing, it maybe, it maybe not, but the point is equal contribution.

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This is a faulty comparison because it assumes that those four other people are doing exactly nothing when they could be doing other things that provide some other benefit to the group like doing things around the house. It's like saying that every single in hunter-gatherer societies has to hunt or else the group fails, which has never been the case except for cases in which hunters aren't able to perform their role effectively.

What about the healer who has to heal non-stop because the tank doesn't know what a cooldown is? Does that make them bad because they don't have any breathing room to do damage? You're basically saying that they are bad given your arguments as well as those requiring healers to do damage.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

It's also content intended to last at least five or six months. It's the fault of the players for trying to rush it with minimal gear, where healer damage becomes less of an option and more of a competitive edge.



This is a faulty comparison because it assumes that those four other people are doing exactly nothing when they could be doing other things that provide some other benefit to the group like doing things around the house. It's like saying that every single in hunter-gatherer societies has to hunt or else the group fails, which has never been the case except for cases in which hunters aren't able to perform their role effectively.

What about the healer who has to heal non-stop because the tank doesn't know what a cooldown is? Does that make them bad because they don't have any breathing room to do damage? You're basically saying that they are bad given your arguments as well as those requiring healers to do damage.

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I think you are missing the point.
Like, completely.

The Savage content was designed to be able to be cleared with the minimum iLvl requirement. The 460 gear wouldn't even provide enough of a buff to pick up the healers slack.

I say 460 because you need to do the savage content in order to get that gear upgraded to 470, which still wouldn't be enough.

Unless you somehow think we should bring 4 BLMs for all content, and ignore other DPS classes. That is 4 BLMs playing the class perfectly, as well as 2 tanks playing perfectly - all of them in a full set of 460 gear, or 450 penta-melded gear. As well as only bringing 2 ASTs because they, would need to support the BLMs with cards, and would have enough time since the fight would be 50-70% downtime for them where they do nothing but emote.

Why overthink it so much.. ?
Screw savages or whatever, if you are with a group of people and are doing something together, everyone should do what they can.
If the party is taking a lot of damage, I heal, if I have a shield on tank and dps are doing fine, I do damage..
But if party is not having enough damage beyond that, you cannot blame the healer for not having high dps.

I don't see the mentality behind considering healers sit in a corner and emote when they don't heal.. Being healer and being a bad team player are different things, it's not a class thing.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Not really, it's more like people haven't caught on the design different. I was a top ten US raid healer in WoW at the time I quit and switch to FF14. Joint an FC static and worked through coil, but my mindset was strictly a "healer only heal". Of course I immidiately noticed how little healing going out in this game. In WoW (or other MMO) there are always a constant ambient damage that needs constant heal, tanks constantly needed to be top off so they don't die to the mechanic. FF14's fight is designed with no consistent damage, but come in wave. Also, the healing potency in FF14 has always been massive in relative to the HP pools, meaning it takes less time to top someone off. So in between there is no other thing for healer to do.e" didn't even cross my mind, and it seems didn't cross the mind of anyone else either. We were all above average so to speak, but it's little wonder why we can only clear the 3rd phase of each tier once we were stacked on gears, and even with echo, we still barely meet the enrage of the final phase. Thinking back, it's probably because the 2 healers did zero DPS, and the tanks probably didn't focus too much on DPS either. So what I am saying here is that the "design" of the content hasn't really changed since 2.0

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I took a break just after first coil release, I don’t notice such situations, probably because we all just running first coil with dark light set and first stage of relic, no one is vastly overgear, hence I have little down time to pull a aero and may be 1-2 stone before I have back to casting heal. Then I came back as HW release, there are some intense fight like the Vault pair with my low potency AST, those are quite intense healing. Time fly ppl have been quite over gear and AST was buff to the sky. Try A1S, don’t even have to do mechanics, just dps the boss down ASAP, and I barely need to cast any heal, just spam my only single target dps.
I mean it wouldn’t hurt if we push the healing requirements more this expansion, a small tune down of healing potency or rise in oGCD healing CD would be able to tip the balance slightly.